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Van Der Sloot Confesses

Aired June 8, 2010 - 21:00:00   ET


JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight, Joran Van Der Sloot confessed to one killing and is still linked to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. If investigators trace his steps, will they find even more dead or missing women?

Then, millions of Americans tuned in to watch Kate Gosselin`s new show. If I knew that many people wanted to watch a frustrated woman cry, I would have aired my wedding video.

And President Obama is angry about the oil disaster and wants to know which ass to kick. Normally I`d say call my cousin Nuncio, but he`s dead.

That and more, right now.

Joran Van Der Sloot has now confessed to murdering Stephany Flores after she used his laptop and found out he may have been involved in the Natalee Holloway disappearance. I`m going to be speaking to a lot of people about this case, including Natalee Holloway`s aunt.

But first, with the latest from Lima, Peru, is Jean Casarez, correspondent for "In Session" on TruTV. Tell me about the confession, Jean. It was very dramatic and he teared up.

JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, what law enforcement has confirmed with us is that he, in fact, did confess. And this was during the point of about seven hours of interrogation yesterday. They say they have questioned him since he got here. But he did finally admit to doing it.

Now, we`ve just learned -- it`s been confirmed by law enforcement -- what exactly happened according to Joran Van Der Sloot in the minutes before the attack began.

I want to show you the entrance to the hotel. We`re right here at the hotel, Joy. This is the Hotel TAC. The video surveillance we`ve seen of him going into the room, this is it on the third floor.

Joran Van Der Sloot came out of that hotel, early morning hours of Sunday, all right? And he walked to the convenience store. We want to show you that. See, that`s a convenience store there, Proviso (ph). It`s next to the gas station. Then he got coffee and he got some bread.

Stephany is very much alive at this point. While he was doing this, Stephany Flores was on the computer and she was researching him, and she found out about who he was and the allegation, his being the suspect that he was the Natalee Holloway person.

Well, when he came back, he went back in that door, he went back up to the third floor with the coffee, with the bread, she confronted him. Law enforcement is saying that when she confronted him, they started arguing and she wanted to leave and he wouldn`t let her.

He says that she hit him first. Yes. He is saying that she hit him first. Then he says that he hit her, and then he took her neck and that was the beginning of the end.

Now, he also admitted that he was using marijuana at the time. You know, Joy, this is very interesting because look at all the things he`s saying that wasn`t his responsibility -- that he wasn`t responsible for, that she hit him first, that he was under drugs, the influence of drugs.

So his story, although he`s confessing, he`s also throwing in a number of potentially mitigating factors here in Peru to allow the court to maybe give him a lighter sentence.

BEHAR: I have a couple of questions now. I mean, why did she go to the room in the first place? And then when she realized that he was involved with the Natalee Holloway case, why did she confront him? I mean, I don`t know if you can answer that.

CASAREZ: No. Why she went to the room, we still don`t know. Authorities -- although we`re getting a lot of information from governmental authorities. They haven`t told us why she went to the room. Why did she confront him?


CASAREZ: know are the facts, according to Joran, that she did confront him. But Joy, let me show you, look at -- this is the headline, ok? This is what this country is focused on right now. Joran Van Der Sloot has confessed to the murder of one of their own, Stephany Flores.

BEHAR: So what she found on the computer was just information that linked him to Natalee Holloway, and then she -- I mean we don`t know exactly -- do you know exactly what she found there?

CASAREZ: No. We know that she did a search, that she found out information, but everybody here knows about Natalee Holloway. I mean, everyone I ask, Natalee Holloway is something they know about, they remember. So she knew about Natalee Holloway, too, it appears and connected the dots.

BEHAR: Ok. Thanks very much, Jean. As always, great reporting.

Ok. The Holloway family knows all too well the pain the Flores family is feeling right now. Natalee`s mother reacted to the news today at the opening of the Natalee Holloway Resource Center in D.C. Listen.


BETH TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S MOTHER: Thank you for your continued support. And please, again, let`s all remind ourselves and keep the Flores family in our hearts and in our prayers.


BEHAR: Now I want to bring in Linda Allison, who is Natalee Holloway`s aunt. Welcome to the show.

There are reports that two new searches will be undertaken in Aruba for Natalee? Can you tell me what`s going on with that at all?

LINDA ALLISON, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S AUNT: Not really sure of any details at the moment. I have talked to my brother. He said that Tim Miller is in Aruba today. I don`t know if he is trying to follow up on some tips that there may be a couple of searches that may be in the works, but I`m not absolutely sure on that.

BEHAR: Ok. Tell me something, I know this is a hard question. But what was the reaction of the family when you heard that Van Der Sloot had confessed?

ALLISON: I think for me it was a bit of a surprise. I did speak to my brother a couple of times today by telephone. And he was surprised. He also was hoping that the Flores family would have some type of closure after this confession even though it is a very difficult time for them now. And he understands the emotional side of what they must be going through.

It`s a very difficult time for them as well as our family.

BEHAR: It`s a terrible thing. And I don`t even know if there`s any closure that anyone could hope for in these type of cases at all. But at least they got him.

ALLISON: That`s right.

BEHAR: You know, Flores, this girl, was killed five years to the day Natalee disappeared. People are finding that a very spooky connection. Do you find a connection there at all?

ALLISON: I do. When I first heard the news that she was killed exactly five years from the day of Natalee`s disappearance, I thought how odd that would be that it would happen on that exact day.

I don`t know if it was a coincidence or if something triggered with Joran Van Der Sloot, especially with it being that day and then with Stephany starting to question him about his involvement in Natalee`s disappearance. It may have triggered that anger side of him that we had seen several times and we`ve heard about so many times.

BEHAR: Right. Well, one of the top Peruvian officials has suggested that this guy, Van Der Sloot may be a serial killer, based on two. We don`t know if there are any more. Do you buy that at all? What do you think about that?

ALLISON: I just would have to think that would be more of a speculation, even though I`ve had lots of people comment and say, if this has already happened now twice, how many events do we not know about that may have gone on? But again, it would be pure speculation.

BEHAR: I can only say thank you for being on the show. We hope that justice will be served in the Natalee case, too.

ALLISON: Thank you, Joy.

BEHAR: Thank you very much.

Ok. I want to turn now to criminal defense attorney Mickey Sherman. Ok, Mickey, first of all, it`s interesting that they`re saying he`s a serial killer, isn`t it?

MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Kind of like the Zodiac Killer kind of thing. May 30th, 2010, 2005. But if they go back and find out where he`s been for the last five May 30s, the answer will be there. I think it`s coincidence.

BEHAR: You do?

SHERMAN: I think it makes an interesting story but I just think it`s coincidence.

BEHAR: What do you think he confessed to? What did he confess, do you think?

SHERMAN: Well, it`s weird. This is not breaking news that this is not a nice guy.


SHERMAN: And it`s like he almost knew the law because the law in Peru is very strange. You get less time if you kill out of anger than if you plan to kill somebody. So he`s getting a break because he killed out of anger. I mean, he didn`t just stab her or something, he beat her up. He beat her to death.

BEHAR: Why should he get less time for that?

SHERMAN: It makes no sense to me. It is like bizarro world down there. He should get more time frankly.

BEHAR: Is it in Peru or is that an American thing, too?


BEHAR: It`s not.

SHERMAN: No, definitely not. The idea is he`ll get a little bit of credit for accepting responsibility for it, for confessing. But I don`t think he did that because he wants to be a nice guy. I think he had them fooled.

BEHAR: No. He wants a lighter sentence.

SHERMAN: He wants a lighter sentence. I don`t know if that`s going to happen. But then again, you don`t get life for murder down there. You get life for aggravated robbery. It just doesn`t make sense.

BEHAR: You know somebody pointed out, like he did possibly kill Natalee Holloway in Aruba, who is an American girl. Is it possible to do some kind of extradition where he would be tried in an American court for that?

SHERMAN: Not that I can imagine. There`s nobody with American ties here except for Natalee Holloway.


SHERMAN: But they`ve still got to prove her case. I don`t think -- sadly, I don`t think we`re any closer to finding the answer there. Don`t forget, why did he confess here, not to clear his conscience, not to be a nice guy. They`ve got a video of him going into the place with her and him coming out without her.

BEHAR: But if there`s DNA evidence that gets even more information about him, shouldn`t that add some time on to his sentence?

SHERMAN: Everything should add time on. Just his breathing should add time to his sentence. But the law in Peru just doesn`t allow of that.

BEHAR: But his father is a man of some influence.

SHERMAN: Had been. The dad died.

BEHAR: He`s died -- right -- he used to be.

The girl`s father.

SHERMAN: Oh, the girl`s father.

BEHAR: Yes. The Peruvian girl`s father, he`s alive and he`s got some clout.

SHERMAN: One would think -- I don`t think, frankly, you need the clout. You saw from that picture you just showed of the front page. You know, the Russians could have dropped a bomb in Lima and the front page picture would still be this guy.

BEHAR: Right. They`re furious. I know.

SHERMAN: As well they should be.

BEHAR: Do you think that this confession will lead to a break in the Holloway case?

SHERMAN: I`d love to say it would but I don`t think it`s going to. This guy is such a sleazy guy. There`s nothing in it for him to do it -- they`re not going to drop the charges or lessen the charges and all it will do is add more charges to him. I don`t think --

I don`t think -- I don`t think they`re going to get it out of him. Will there be anything in the computer, though. I mean, we all thought that the beating, there might be in the computer.


SHERMAN: And maybe he typed some journal there. But apparently she was doing nothing more than Googling him. She could have gone to --

BEHAR: I know but now the girl --


SHERMAN: -- could have gone to a Starbucks and have the same information.

BEHAR: I know but now the girl, first of all, we don`t know why she went there. You know, so she was lured in there or attracted to him in some way.

SHERMAN: She could be updating her Facebook page for all we know.

BEHAR: Yes but now that she sees -- she sees a connection between him and Natalee. That is ding-a-ling-a-ling.


BEHAR: Leave, don`t confront the guy.

SHERMAN: Maybe she didn`t know that --

BEHAR: I don`t know, that`s -- that`s the personal side of the story that`s mysterious.


BEHAR: Thanks very much, Mickey.

SHERMAN: My pleasure.

BEHAR: Ok, when we come back, we`ll get into the psychology of why some suspects like Van Der Sloot seem to like the spotlight a little too much. Don`t go anywhere.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW Charlie Sheen`s plea deal falls through at the very last minute. Will the "Two and a Half Men" star now be doing more than two and a half weeks in jail.

And Kate Gosselin continues her reign as queen of reality TV as the premier of "Kate plus 8" strikes ratings gold.

Now back to Joy.

BEHAR: Accused killers used to make the perk walks with coats hiding their handcuffs and their heads bowed in shame. But today they seem to parade in front of the cameras as though they are ready to be on a reality TV show.

With me to discuss this phenomenon is Rita Cosby, Emmy-award winning journalist and New York Times best-selling author of "A Quiet Hero" and Pat Brown criminal profiler and author of "The Profiler", a perfect name for your book.

Van Der Sloot has been globetrotting and acting like he`s a TV star, this guy. I mean, he went to -- in Peru, he tried to participate in a poker tournament. In Thailand he hinted on camera that he wouldn`t mind getting into the sex trafficking business. And he joked that he sold Natalee Holloway as a sex slave. And in Holland he confessed on camera to dumping Holloway at sea.

All this kind of bravado and disregard for what`s -- or how he looked. What do you make of that?

RITA COSBY, AUTHOR, "QUIET HERO": You know, I think it`s very symptomatic and classic of this kind of mind-set. I mean, I`ve interviewed a lot of people and I spent time in fact on this particularly case. I was down in Aruba a lot, Joy. And it doesn`t surprise me.

It`s this arrogance about them. And it`s a sense of I can sort of be smarter than everybody else. I can always get away with it. I`m sort of the superstar and they love this attention.

I think back about to Scott Peterson. Remember -- the Laci Peterson case.

BEHAR: Another one. Yes, yes.

COSBY: And I remember, he loved the attention of the press. He love the news -- he was going around bragging oh Rita`s calling me, so and so is calling me and so and so.

BEHAR: Right.

COSBY: It`s just I can`t get enough of the camera and I can`t get enough of this moment. It`s this sort of sick compartmentalization I think, psychologically, "Oh, I can get away with anything else because I`m better and smarter than everybody else."

BEHAR: Ok, Pat do you think it has something to do with the fact that he did get away with the Holloway case in Aruba for such a long time?


BEHAR: In his particular case.

BROWN: Well, he`s a classic -- he`s a classic psychopath. Extremely narcissistic, everything is about Joran, Joran, Joran. And he has gotten away with the Natalee case. And he knows he`s not going to probably ever be charged with anything there. So he was enjoying going around the world and smirking about it.

And in this particular instance, one of the reasons I know this wasn`t premeditated was he was so stupid in bringing the girl back to his hotel room and killing her there, that -- that you know, he wasn`t planning this is some kind of big reality show thing.

He just got so arrogant, he just didn`t think you know, anything was ever going to catch up with him, but now it has.

BEHAR: Yes, but I mean, it`s not just him. As you mentioned Scott Peterson. Amanda Knox, this girl in Italy --


BEHAR: -- who is dancing and carrying on, cart-wheeling in the police station.

COSBY: She was cart-wheeling at the police station, it`s incredible, Joy.

BEHAR: Yes, I mean, I know and then there is Casey Anthony, the girl, that woman who is accused of killing her own child.

COSBY: Right.

BEHAR: Partying and out there partying. I mean, you`ve seen people, both of you know about people like this. Are they -- these are my thoughts. Are they exhibitionistic? Yes. Are they self-destructive?


BEHAR: I don`t know.


BEHAR: Are they sociopathic.

BROWN: No, I don`t think so.

COSBY: No, I think they`re --


COSBY: They`re preservationists. They`re not self-destructive. I think they don`t mind destroying everybody else --


COSBY: -- but themselves. I think they`re incredibly selfish.

BEHAR: But the -- but the behavior almost begs people to find them and go after them.

BROWN: They`re not to -- they`re not trying to get caught.

COSBY: Yes I agree with Pat.

BROWN: They never try to get caught. They just think they`re so smart. They think -- they are so used to manipulating people and getting away with things. And they do it for quite a long time, that they just never think that anybody is actually -- actually -- catch you know be able to get over on them. I mean, this is their whole -- their whole M.O.

But no, they never want to get caught. Every time somebody says that, like, well, the reason that Joran Van Der Sloot took her back to his room was because he really wanted to get caught and put away because he felt so bad about Natalee.

No, the guy is a psychopath. He has zero empathy for Natalee. We could see when he was talking about it, he called her kinds of names. He blamed her for whole thing, he hates Natalee and he hates her family. So there`s no empathy in him for what he did for Natalee --

BEHAR: No there`s no empathy.

BROWN: -- there is no empathy for what he did to Stephanie either.

BEHAR: Right ok.

COSBY: He blames Stephanie for the murder, too.

He has a twisted mind set. In fact we`re hearing reports out of Aruba and also reports out of Peru basically saying she was looking at his computer and how dare she sort of look into his world.


COSBY: It`s this arrogance that, it`s my world, I can do what I want and how dare you come into it. And it`s his mindset of she is sort of asked for it because.

BEHAR: What`s the different set?

BROWN: That`s not even true.

BEHAR: Oh go ahead.

BROWN: That`s not even true because, ok, I`ve got to really point this out. That`s not really true. What he`s doing is, he knows he`s been caught red-handed. He knows he`s going to be charged with homicide.

So now he`s going to the next best play that he`s got to lower that homicide from first degree to second degree. And he said, ok, I`m going to man up. I`m going to admit I did this, but it was her fault. She did this thing, she messed with my mind.

And he says two very interesting things. He said, I didn`t want to do it and she had no right. What he`s really saying is she didn`t want to do it with me and she had no right to refuse me. That man was in the process of attempting to rape her. She had no pants on. She`s not going to look at this computer with no pants on.

And the girl was on her period. She wouldn`t take her pants off with no, that she wearing, you know a feminine product --

BEHAR: Everything we --

BROWN: -- she`s not going to do that. He was pulling those pants off, he killed her while he was trying to rape her. And that`s what he`s trying to get out of.


BROWN: He doesn`t want to be charged with attempted rape and murder. He wants to be charged with just, oh, I lost my mind when she did a bad thing and interfered with my computer.

BEHAR: Ok, is it interesting to anyone that they`re all under 30, these people I just mentioned.

COSBY: Yes, it is.

BEHAR: Amanda Knox, Casey Anthony and Joran --

COSBY: It is a twisted mind-set. And you know, to highlight also what Pat was saying Joy too, in addition to -- I`ve been in Peru. And I knew the Peruvian authorities do not fool around. And I am sure that exactly as Pat was saying, that there was some sort of deal in terms of him not wanting to get caught.


COSBY: But confronted with the information saying, you want to go to Peruvian jail here or you want to go here, you pick your choice. It`s not a pretty place. And to hit your point, yes there is this young sort of mindset --

BEHAR: The YouTube generation.

COSBY: Yes it is, how scary is that?

BEHAR: Well, because in this, in these days you can do something and the next minute you`re on television. So there`s no time to really process it, right, Pat? You sort of --

BROWN: That`s right.

BEHAR: This is it, I`m going to do it and take the consequences.

BROWN: And they can`t wait for the limelight and you`re friends are talking about it.

No, he`s a psychopath and he`s going to play the game to the best of his ability so he can get away with it.

BEHAR: Yes. He is a -- I think we`ve concluded he`s a psychopath.


BEHAR: Yes. I think we`ve concluded he`s a psychopath.

COSBY: And he`s going to try to sell --

BROWN: I think he`s going to get 15. I bet he`s going to get 15 years instead of 35 and he`ll be out before he`s 30 and he`ll be back on the block again. That makes me sick.

COSBY: He`ll try to sell an interview. I bet you.

BEHAR: We don`t have -- thanks. Ladies, I have to go.

Up next Pauly Shore joins me to discuss his new mockumentary about adoption in Africa. I wonder if Madonna has seen it.

COSBY: We`ll find out.



PAULY SHORE, STAR/DIRECTOR, "ADOPTED": What`s up? This is Pauly Shore and we are in the streets of Africa. I am here to adopt a baby. It`s going to be beautiful. It`s going to be gorgeous. I`m going to take it back to America with me for a better life.


BEHAR: When you hear the name Pauly Shore, parenting is probably not the first thing that comes to mind. But it`s at the forefront of his new movie called "Adoption", a fake documentary about his efforts to adopt an African child.

So welcome Pauly Shore to the show. Pauly I have not seen the film. I`m sorry.

SHORE: That`s ok. You saw part of the trailer though.

BEHAR: I saw a little bit.

SHORE: A bit of the trailer yes.

BEHAR: But somebody who did see it told me it was very offensive. Did you get that from people?

SHORE: Was the person that saw it, are they easily offended?


SHORE: Is it that type of person?

BEHAR: No. I guess because it`s about African children and adopting African children.

How do you respond to that? You`re a comedian. Do you say too bad about that?

SHORE: No, not at all. I mean, like you said, at the end of the day I`m a comedian.

BEHAR: Right.

SHORE: So I went down there, and it`s a serious subject. You know, adoption is a very serious subject. But I think for me, I grew up at the Comedy Store. To me, the best comics are people that take serious subject and make light of them.

BEHAR: That`s right.

SHORE: I mean if you look at Richard Pryor or any of these guys, they would take something that wasn`t funny serious and kind of make light of it. For me I did it in the film -- so.

BEHAR: Well, I think that sometimes offensive is a compliment to comedians because it means edgy.

SHORE: Yes. The whole film, though, I would have to say there are definitely offensive parts in it.

BEHAR: Really? Like what? Like what do you think is offensive?

SHORE: I don`t know. There`s a joke that -- there`s a joke that I do in the trailer that`s a little bit offensive. But editorially, we cut it so it looked offensive. But I didn`t really walk into a bar and say this joke.

BEHAR: Can you say the joke on television? Can you say it?

SHORE: I guess. I don`t want to say it.

BEHAR: Say it.

SHORE: I said -- I go into a bar with all Africans, and I said -- because I`m performing later that night on stage. And I say, I said, it`s good to be here in Africa, but I did not come here to Africa to tell jokes. I came here to get HIV.

BEHAR: Oh, wow. Oh, boy.

SHORE: See, that`s what I`m saying. It`s not funny in here, but when we cut it.

BEHAR: But it`s funny there?

SHORE: No. See that`s the whole thing. It`s the way that we edited it in the piece. You got to see it in the trailer. It`s in the trailer.

BEHAR: I can`t wait. It may not be my type of film.

SHORE: No, it is though.

BEHAR: Is it?

SHORE: It is your type of film. That`s why I said there`s only two or three parts in there that are a little bit over the top. But other than that, it`s a fun film.

BEHAR: But the hot new thing to adopt children from Africa. Why does Madonna, Brangelina -- why don`t they just adopt a kid from the United States? If they want an American kid, Sandra Bullock just did that. Why don`t they do that?

SHORE: I think you have a point there. I think that that`s one of the things that I learned when I went over there, is that a lot of the people on the streets they weren`t really too into celebrities coming over to Africa to take their children. They said if you want to help out Africa, do what Oprah`s doing and create schools and create jobs and send them clothes and soccer balls --

BEHAR: And leave them here.

SHORE: What?

BEHAR: Leave the kids where they are.

SHORE: Yes, leave the kids here, because that would be like someone from Africa taking a little kid from Kansas City at 5 years old and take him back to Africa and then being like, yo, I got to get back to Kansas City?

BEHAR: What are the chances of that happening, Pauly? Zero. But thanks, Pauly, for coming on the show. "Adopted" is out on DVD June 15th. And if you`re out on Long Island, catch Pauly at the Brokerage Comedy Club -- I love the Brokerage -- on Saturday.

Back in a minute.


BEHAR: Charlie Sheen`s cushy plea deal on assault charges fell through the 11th hour when a worker at the county jail refused to honor the agreement because the deal was too lenient. The woman has a point. Being allowed to yourself for 12 hours a day, isn`t a prison sentence. Being married to the guy, that`s a prison sentence. With me now with the latest in the case is syndicated radio host Carlos Diaz. OK Carlos, what exactly did this worker take issue with in the plea deal?

CARLOS DIAZ, SYNDICATED RADIO HOST: Right, the big issue that Beverly Campbell -- and that`s a name that Charlie Sheen won`t soon forget. The big issue that she had was she said he`s not eligible for work release because he didn`t hold a job in Aspen. So she said he shouldn`t be available for work release, which is a 12-hour a day release program. Instead she wanted him to be part of the useful public service program, which means he would only be out of jail for six hours a day and he couldn`t smoke while he was out of jail and he couldn`t drink and he couldn`t, of course, he could not eat certain kinds of foods. It was kind of like a certain menu I guess you would have that they would have you know kind of assign to him. But it was a much more restrictive program. The big thing now though Joy is that he is now not going back to court until July 12th, which means even if he serves 17 days, that`s pushing to it back into August, which is when he`s going to start shooting "TWO AND A HALF MEN." he just signed a big multimillion dollar deal making him the richest paid actor on TV for "TWO AND A HALF MEN." they may have to put off production now for that TV show.

BEHAR: Oh boy, but if everyone else signed off on the agreement, why isn`t she being forced to honor it? I don`t get that.

DIAZ: They tried, the D.A. signed off on it, the sheriff signed off on it. They thought they kind of bully her to signing off on it but she stuck to her guns. She said the guy does not have a job in Aspen, Colorado, so he should not be eligible for the work release program. Finally the judge, you know, just said, what are we going to do about this? And Charlie`s - Charlie`s lawyers said, let`s revisit this July 12th and they`re doing all they can to change this person`s opinion.

BEHAR: OK so could this mean more jail time for Charlie Sheen? That`s what I want to know.

DIAZ: Yes, basically that`s another restriction of the useful public service. You know, longer prison sentence, more probation for him, all the things that Charlie does not want. So on July 12th they`ve got a lot to sort out before they go back to jail - before they go back to court on July 12th. And like I said, if it does mean 30 days and he doesn`t get out till August 12th, that goes right into shooting time for "TWO AND A HALF MEN."

BEHAR: Yes, right, OK thanks very much, Carlos for the update.

DIAZ: All right, no problem.

BEHAR: OK "KATE PLUS 8" debuted Sunday night to huge ratings. Which is good because Kate Gosselin seemed much more relaxed now that the camera crew was back in her house. The place felt so empty with just the nine of them. Pauly Shore comedian and the star and director of "ADOPTED" is here. Paulina Porizkova, former supermodel and blogger, always a supermodel to me. And Adriana Costa, entertainment journalist. OK you guys, now, 3.4 million viewers is a lot of people. Do you tune in -- let me start with you. Do you tune in because you like her or you hate her? And here`s nothing to hate really, but people do.

PAULY SHORE, COMEDIAN: Well I don`t tune in to her at all. But it`s not that I don`t like her or anything, I`m just not interested. You know, for me, the Lakers are playing right now. I`m in a sports center.


SHORE: You know what I mean? I`m not into --

BEHAR: Well, we`re into her. What about you, Paulina.

PAULINA PORIZKOVA, FORMER MODEL: OK, go head to head with the Lakers and beat them.

BEHAR: And she beat them.

PORIZKOVA: Actually I don`t know that for sure, but she could have.

ADRIANNA COSTA, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: I guess you guys are talking about sports because I`m completely at a loss.

BEHAR: No, have you watched Kate?

PORIZKOVA: Yes. I used to watch when it was "JON & KATE PLUS 8." I`m really like surprised that no one ever like commented on the fact at the end when they were sitting on the couch, she would always be like me me me, me me me and he`d sit there like this like who wears the pants in that family. But you know what, I was saying, there`s no way that is going to work.

BEHAR: And they did. And they did.

PORIZKOVA: I said, they`re going to get divorced. There`s no way that`s going to work. I`m not happy I was right. But I think you know, them tuning in this time, people just curious to see what the hell is she going to do now --

SHORE: It`s like if you watch I mean "CELEBRITY REHAB" or the "SOBER HOUSE" people love to see train wrecks. And that`s basically what -- I don`t know her, but I assume she was on "DANCING WITH THE STARS" recently and she was going crazy on there. So people seem to love people that are messed up.

COSTA: You know what I also think is that there`s a genuine curiosity because you hear about her so much in the press and the news, you know in panel discussions like this. So you hear about her life. You now want to go one step beyond and see what goes on at home. And you know everyone is falling whether her hair is short or long or a mullet or she`s breaking a nail.

PORIZKOVA: Right and you know I bet you that by next week those ratings will have dropped by half.

SHORE: I don`t know, I think it will keep going you know. And I think I want to talk about her hair.


BEHAR: Why do you say that?

COSTA: No because I don`t think anybody - I think people

SHORE: What is that, is it going up or down, I`m curious?

COSTA: Now she`s got the extensions. It`s one length. No longer the --


SHORE: I don`t want to watch the Lakers. I want to see her hair.

COSTA: Hair extensions.

SHORE: Jesus.

BEHAR: The other thing I don`t understand, why can`t the octomom figure out a way to make money like this one?


SHORE: That would be -

BEHAR: She`s a little bit of a psycho -

SHORE: Yes, she`s nuts.


COSTA: I agree with you. I think she`s funny. Kate is not so funny.

BEHAR: I agree.

COSTA: I think octomom`s really funny.


BEHAR: Go ahead, Pauly.

SHORES: I think that her and Andy Dick is living in a shed, correct? Did you hear about that? No, see, I was on Howard Stern this morning. And I didn`t know that either. I did a movie with Andy a long time ago. He`s an old friend of mine. I feel really bad that he`s living in a shed right now.

BEHAR: What kind of a shed.

SHORE: Like in his backyard.

BEHAR: Like a planting shed?

SHORE: Like a greenery or something.

BEHAR: Oh my god!

PORIZKOVA: In Kate`s house?

SHORE: No, not in Kate`s house.

PORIZKOVA: I`m totally confused.

SHORE: No, wouldn`t you love to see a camera inside the shed watching Andy Dick?

BEHAR: Oh yes.

SHORE: That would be awesome.

BEHAR: I`d love it. But the producers of the "JERSEY SHORE," another great show. Admit that the show is an incubator for STDs and Dr. Drew called it a herpes nest. Thank god he clarified that all this time. I thought it was a think tank. OK, Pauly, have you ever had herpes?

COSTA: Wow. That`s a good one.

BEHAR: I mean, it doesn`t make you a bad person.

SHORE: You know what I`ve gotten my blood tested a lot, especially lately. I don`t have anything. I know, you can`t believe it. I also had my brain checked.

BEHAR: And what did they find?

SHORE: Nothing. And I had -- I`m getting a -- what`s it called colonoscopy.

BEHAR: Colonoscopy.

COSTA: That means you`re aging yourself right now.

BEHAR: Why? Are you 50?

SHORE: No, I`m not 50, but I`m Jewish. I just get neurotic.

BEHAR: What does Jews mean.


SHORE: I get a little neurotic. People are like, you`re going to get cancer in your butt. You got to check -- you know what I mean?

COSTA: Wait I think there`s going to be GTLS for gym tan laundry sex with these Jersey Shore kids. You know about GTL right?


COSTA: It`s like they`re saying, but the whole, if you watch last season it is all about sex. So what do you expect? It`s like a college dormitory with these kids.

SHORE: Yes, I think it`s good -

BEHAR: But the creators are giving out Valtrex which is to go counter active.

COSTA: Is that to prevent or protect?

BEHAR: It`s against an STD I guess, so herpes.

PORIZKOVA: But you have to have herpes to take the medicine.

BEHAR: Isn`t Valtrex for shingles also, I think they use it for that too?

COSTA: I think it`s a preventative measure and I think, it`s kind of like you know better to be informed than sorry.

BEHAR: But isn`t it the networks` responsibility in a certain way, on the one hand they`re giving them Valtrex because they want them to keep having sex to stay on the air.

COSTA: They`re exploiting it.

BEHAR: Exactly.

SHORE: For me, I think it`s good that they`re handing out that stuff. Almost similar to being in high school and then giving condoms out. You know? Or being at a bar and the bar is serving hot coffee before they take off because they`re serving the alcohol to everyone, everyone`s getting wasted, then they`re about to drive, like here`s some coffee.

BEHAR: OK so let me give you this argument - let me give you this argument then. If they say that - if we give the kids condoms, that encourages them to have sex. That`s an argument from the Right, conservative people say that.

COSTA: But they`re going to do it anyway, that`s the problem.

BEHAR: Well that would be -- so giving them Valtrex encourage them to have more sex unprotected in the hot tubs?

COSTA: Nobody wants herpes though.

SHORE: No I think it also has to do with the possible lawsuit in the future because if they`re all on this show and they`re all getting diseases and then eventually in the future they die or something bad happens, they sue VH-1.

BEHAR: I see. So they`re protecting themselves.

SHORE: They are protecting themselves.

COSTA: But I`m sure they`re signing all kinds of papers about, if I die, it`s all my own fault.

SHORE: Yes, that`s true.

PORIZKOVA: they should turn it into a PSA I think, you know, to practice safe sex. At least you`re doing some good there. We have a lot of sex --

BEHAR: That would be a first for them, I think.

OK this last story I`m a wreck over. I have to tell you, Heidi Montag has filed for legal separation from Spencer Pratt. And I`m just so upset. Was it her psychic, her crystals or her publicist that told her to do that? And who gets custody of the implants? Your thoughts?

PORIZKOVA: Oh my god I had no idea that she would every get divorced.

BEHAR: Yes, well one of the things, she`s separated not divorced.

PORIZKOVA: Oh separated.

BEHAR: One of the reasons she`s doing it is because now he cannot put any lien on money that she earns.

COSTA: They`ve earn the money together.

BEHAR: Not any more. Now the money that she makes is hers.

COSTA: By the way, when she was on your show, this was her the whole time looking in the monitor. Did you see that? She wasn`t even paying attention. But the fact that - no, she wasn`t paying attention to the topic.

BEHAR: Were we talking about - or something, I don`t remember.

COSTA: It was blond hair and breasts. I don`t think she had all those surgeries at that point.


COSTA: They`re saying that this could potentially be staged.

BEHAR: OK, thanks, everybody. Times up, I`m sorry. Fun to see you all.

Up next, critics say President Obama hasn`t been emotional enough over the oil spill. We`ll he`s finally good and angry, good move? We`ll discuss.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, are you OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, my god, what happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened was you made Barack Obama angry.


BEHAR: OK. After 50 days of oil gushing into the Gulf, President Obama showed some real anger this morning on the "TODAY" show. Watch.


I don`t sit around just talking to experts because this is a college seminar. We talk to these folks because they potentially have the best answers so I know whose ass to kick.


BEHAR: You know I`ve got a few suggestions for him, but it`s only an hour show. With me now is Penn Jillette, illusionist and libertarian.

PENN JILLETTE, ILLUSIONIST: Say whatever you want about me. You know that.

BEHAR: I always say that and correspondent for the nation, Ari Melber. You guy, Penn, are you happy to see the president curse?

JILLETTE: I don`t know. I think maybe, you know, if you wanted to solve all the problems, he could have used stronger language. I think if he`s going to get upset, ass is awfully timid.

BEHAR: Well he`d has to come on this show to use the stronger language. That`s NBC.

JILLETTE: He has to be very careful. I don`t think it means anything. I don`t think the president swearing helps a thing. I don`t think it hurts anything either. I think who cares?

BEHAR: He`s no Dick Cheney when it comes to swearing.

JILLETTE: Oh, he certainly is. He can certainly swear.

BEHAR: But not the way Cheney --

JILLETTE: Oh, I think they probably know all the same words.

BEHAR: Plus he shot his friend. He`s not in the same ballpark. That`s what we need. We need Sarah Palin from a helicopter shooting people. That`s what we need to do.

ARI MELBER, THE NATION: This is one place where we could use some more weapons. I think it`s goofy, but you know, it`s a bit like when someone says to you, you never say you love me, say you love me. And then you say I love you. That`s really different than when you say I love you right out the gate. Everybody knows that. And so the problem here is -


BEHAR: How about I hate you.

MELBER: If Matt Lauer has to be the one to get you to curse a little bit. Matt Lauer? Then you`re obviously not out there on the anger scale. I agree with Penn that it doesn`t matter. But for people who were looking Spike Lee was looking for more anger. I don`t think this will satisfy that crowd.

BEHAR: Well why do they want him to look angry? And is it necessary really, do you think?

MELBER: I don`t think it`s necessary. People want it because this is a really complicated problem that`s really hard to talk about, scary and boring. And so all that leaves us with is, well, OK, let`s just say we want him tougher and tough is good.

BEHAR: But if he gets angry


BEHAR: Yes but Penn, let me ask you one more question.

JILLETTE: No Americans are saying that.

BEHAR: But if he gets really angry, won`t he have to say, curse at Dick Cheney at deregulators, at some of the people who let that all happen in the last administration? Maybe he doesn`t want to do that?

JILLETTE: I don`t think -- you`ve got something terrible and awful happening and you can`t pretend that there is a real villain that someone that wanted this to happen. Really bad things happen all the time.

BEHAR: Yes, but this is --

JILLETTE: Everybody`s going to die. Bad things --

BEHAR: No but there`s evil here.

MELBER: Penn`s right. Bad things happen, let`s go home. We`re done, right? I mean the problem is the idea that evil has to be active is one concept. And the other point is that inaction creates evil too. And so -

BEHAR: That`s right.

MELBER: The people who are hurt by this oil spill, the fact that we didn`t regulate the right way, we didn`t have safeguards for these companies, means that that inaction by the government and many people are responsible. I wouldn`t put it on one party. But that inaction has real consequences for people down there.

JILLETTE: But the way people present it as though there was an act of evil. As though these people are ripping off. I mean, no one - no one is benefiting from this.

BEHAR: No, not now they`re not. But they were when they deregulated and when they were making profits more important than rules and regulations.

JILLETTE: If you want to put blame -


JILLETTE: Then it has to be also us. I mean, I don`t buy the most expensive gas I can get. I try to buy it cheaper. You know? There are people against nuclear power. There are people that stop Arctic drilling. All those people are pushing us to do things that are harder and harder. And regulators would be wonderful if you know somebody who knows enough to regulate. It seems impossible to me. You`re talking about stuff that`s really, really hard. The regulator that you want --

BEHAR: Go ahead, Eric.

JILLETTE: -- is a regulator that knows everything. Who is that?

MELBER: You don`t have to know everything. I read the paper and I know that you can require an acoustic switch, which is a remote control switch that can turn off the oil. It cost about a half mill, Norway and Brazil required by law.


MELBER: We don`t in the U.S. partly because of the lobbying and the choices that were made. That`s one thing. I`m not saying it`s a perfect fix. But that`s one thing you know from reading the papers that government could have done and didn`t. So when people come along and says this just happens, or there is no way, I think that`s mistaken.

JILLETTE: But I mean -

BEHAR: That was during the Bush Administration. That was Dick Cheney`s call, if I recall. Correct Eric?

MELBER: That`s correct.

BEHAR: That`s right.


BEHAR: To if there is evil, the point is there is evil that when profit is over safety, it`s evil.

JILLETTE: But you think that would solve everything that could happen?

MELBER: I didn`t say that.

BEHAR: But it would solve this.

MELBER: Penn`s starting to do magic and I`m getting nervous. You`re doing word magic, man.

JILLETTE: I`m just saying I`m agreeing with you. It`s just that I think that your problem with regulation is the problem with perfect knowledge. And it`s very easy to see the stuff in retrospect after something happens. It`s much easier to predict than before it happens. And there are corners that are nothing bad happens from that and corners cut that really bad in happen from that.

BEHAR: This is one of them.

JILLETTE: Yes but looking in the back -- looking after the facts --

BEHAR: We have to go for a minute. We`ll be back for more in a minute with these same two guys. I love --


BEHAR: I`m back with Penn Gillette and Ari Melber, in case.

JILLETTE: We were talking here -

BEHAR: I want to show you this ad BP is running.


TONY HAYWARD, CEO, BP: The Gulf spill is a tragedy that never should have happened. I`m Tony Hayward. BP has taken full responsibility for cleaning up the spill in the Gulf. We`ve helped organize the largest environmental response in this country`s history.


BEHAR: You know, is it possible to boil him in oil? That`s all I want to know. Hot oil, throw him in? Did you see that? How can they spend money, I think $50 million somebody told me, on this ad? It`s PR and it`s lies. What do you think of that?

JILLETTE: It doesn`t -- it`s not where -- I don`t get angry about that stuff. It`s just not -- I think that the people of BP are suffering as much as you can suffer. Eleven people died.

BEHAR: That`s sad.

JILLETTE: It`s horrible.

BEHAR: We feel for them.

JILLETTE: There`s this thing on Facebook that says, boycott BP. And I`m thinking, OK, 11 people have died, the worst ecological disaster in American history, their company is over and they`re going, oh, now, now we have to do something, Facebook is unfriending us. I mean, I don`t think that any of the hate or any of the anger means anything. It`s a horrible catastrophe.

BEHAR: Why does this guy still have a job?

MELBER: Well I do think it would be great to have management changes because the management of BP is part of this huge problem.

BEHAR: That`s right.

MELBER: To say something unpopular, though, the ad is not evil. The ad is not a problem. The ad is what businesses do, right? I meant I think this comes back to what we discuss --

BEHAR: Pretend that they`re fixing it when they`re not?

MELBER: Well they try to sell their stuff and they try to put their best face on things. And they have the share price that is plummeting. They have those duties. So to me the question isn`t whether businesses will continue to act like businesses but whether we as a society and as government will put some rules down, make them pay for it and when we make them pay for it and when fix the problem we`ll have succeeded. They will continue to run ads. They`re a business and we shouldn`t worry out that. We should stay focused, laser focused on solving the problem.

JILLETTE: But do you believe they have a fix they`re not using?

BEHAR: No, I don`t believe that.

JILLETTE: OK then they`re doing everything they can.

BEHAR: You know, let me ask you something.

JILLETTE: What else do you want? This is a horrible nightmare.

BEHAR: Let me ask you something, it`s a nightmare.

JILLETTE: It`s the worst thing that can happen.

BEHAR: And we are furious, so we want the blame put where it belongs.

JILLETTE: Why hate people for it?

BEHAR: Because, why not?

JILLETTE: I think that`s your point.

BEHAR: Let`s get with the program.

JILLETTE: I`m always uncomfortable with that kind of just raw hatred. I mean, there`s a mistake, it was not evil. People are wrong, they`re not evil.

BEHAR: Again, we don`t agree on that. There was evil.

JILLETTE: I don`t think there was evil. I think there was a big mistake.

BEHAR: I have one question, as a libertarian I hear Rand Paul and all these people, you`re a libertarian, saying less government, smaller government. Isn`t the real problem --

JILLETTE: They always clap when they say it.

BEHAR: Isn`t the real problem big corporations, large corporations really running things?

JILLETTE: You mean like the ones you work for?

BEHAR: No, yes, maybe. Maybe. Like the oil companies and like the financial industry. Isn`t that really the issue? What`s the problem with big government?

JILLETTE: I don`t think -- think the problem is that government is in league with these corporations. If you --

BEHAR: Take money from them.

JILLETTE: Exactly. I think that you`re talking about when the people who say, you know, why are you against regulation? It`s not as much against regulations, it`s also against helping them out. The bailouts, all of that stuff. We saw --

BEHAR: What should he have done? Not bailed everybody out?

JILLETTE: Of course not.

BEHAR: Just let it go?

JILLETTE: Absolutely.

BEHAR: How many people would have been out of work then?

JILLETTE: Absolutely, about the same number that are now.

BEHAR: But they rescued GM and it worked.

JILLETTE: Did it work?


JILLETTE: I mean did they really get the money back?

BEHAR: It`s working, well, it`s working.

JILLETTE: There`s a lot of hype. It`s like the more jobs and most of them are census jobs.

BEHAR: You know what you want to be? My magic man. Thanks for joining me guys.


BEHAR: Catch the season premiere of "TIM AND TAYLOR" (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Thursday 10:00 p.m. on Showtime. Good night, everybody.