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Nancy Grace
Van Der Sloot Murder Reenactment May Be Off
Aired June 09, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. Just when Joran Van Der Sloot thinks he`ll walk on murder charges in the disappearance of American girl Natalee Holloway, another young girl also last seen with Van Der Sloot ends up dead, 21-year-old Stephany Flores found brutally murdered inside Van Der Sloot`s hotel room in Lima, Peru. As chilling surveillance video shows Van Der Sloot with Flores just before she`s murdered, cops say Van Der Sloot confesses.
And major developments tonight. It`s revealed the $25,000 Van Der Sloot scams in exchange for the location of Natalee Holloway`s body may have funded his trip to Peru to allegedly kill all over again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: ... U.S. feds busting Van Der Sloot...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... efforts by Van Der Sloot to extort $250,000 for information about the location of Natalee Holloway`s remains...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is what she did...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... $250,000 total...
GRACE: ... a quarter-million-dollar scam...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Van Der Sloot indicated a house where Holloway`s remains supposedly were located.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI made an initial payment of $10,000, then a transfer of $15,000 to a personal bank account in the Netherlands.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He made arrangements to travel to Peru after he got the money.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Others are asking the question why he wasn`t arrested.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did they even begin to think he was going to come to Peru?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... the May 30th serial killer...
GRACE: ... the killing machine...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... a murder confession...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His words were, I did not want to do it. The girl intruded into my private life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say he admitted to killing the 21-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joran Van Der Sloot was crying when he confessed to the murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The only reason he admitted that now is because he was at the end of his rope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Breaking news tonight. As Joran Van Der Sloot sits in a Peruvian jail after cops say he confesses to murder, it`s revealed he receives $25,000, reportedly funding his trip to Peru, ending in a young girl`s murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... significant development in this case...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Van Der Sloot offered to reveal the location of Natalee`s body.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): How do you know she`s dead, Joran?
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, (through translator): I just know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... an undercover investigation...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Van Der Sloot said he would reveal the location of Holloway`s body and how she died in exchange for $250,000.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the end, they were still working on this operation when the murder of Stephany Flores here in Peru happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Apparently, he used those funds to travel to Lima, Peru.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He received a payment of $10,000, followed by a wire transfer of $15,000 to his account in the Netherlands.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Van Der Sloot then showed investigators a house where he said Holloway`s remains were.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Did you try to resuscitate her?
VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I tried everything. I even lifted her up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then he admitted to them it was a lie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With Joran Van Der Sloot -- this guy changes on a dime.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Maybe that gave him impetus to fly to Peru, to flee that situation.
GRACE: ... finds out who Joran Van Der Sloot is...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He became enraged, started hitting her, attacking her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The mattress on the bed was totally off its box springs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just hope we get him this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: And we go immediately Jean Casarez, legal correspondent of "In Session." Jean, I know you`ve got the inside track on the latest. He`s lawyered up, correct?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": He has lawyered up. We had confirmation tonight that he has a local Lima private attorney, and in fact, met with him at 10:00 o`clock last night at Peruvian national police headquarters criminal investigation building. That`s where he`s being held right now. A translator was there with them.
But here is the very latest. We`re understanding there`s going to be a press conference tomorrow morning at 9:00 o`clock sharp, Lima, Peru, time. That`s Central time in the United States. And at it, the police are going to discuss the case, tell us where the investigation is, and that possibly this case may move on now to prosecutors.
LALAMA: And Jean, I guess it`s safe to say that the well has run dry. He`s not going to be talking too much about anything from here on out.
CASAREZ: Well, that`s a good question. We had heard that this reconstruction of him coming to the hotel to reconstruct what exactly happened -- that it would go forward even with an attorney by his side, that it`s common procedure. But officials said today to us that they believe they may not need that, that they may have enough to go forward. Now, whether that is literally to be taken by us or if a defense attorney has stepped in, I guess that leads us -- we can talk about that because that`s an issue and can go either way.
LALAMA: All right. You know, David Ariosto, CNN producer, everyone`s talking about this extortion plot because, sad to say, had he been arrested -- you know, we can all be armchair quarterbacks -- had he been arrested, none of this would have happened. Give us the latest details on the extortion plot and the FBI`s involvement and why he was not arrested.
DAVID ARIOSTO, CNN PRODUCER: Yes. Obviously, the story`s causing a great deal of a stir here in Aruba. According to an FBI statement, what -- they`re saying they, in fact, did not move slow, that these processes do take time. Given the case began in Aruba, in a foreign country, there are certain complicated measures in exercising this, according to this FBI statement.
They were also looking to build what they`re describing as a stronger case against Van Der Sloot. Initial indications were they had him for extortion and wire fraud, but they were looking to develop more links, more clues and details surrounding the ongoing investigation and additional evidence of what Van Der Sloot might be involved in here on the island.
They`re quick to point out, however, that this is an investigation that is ongoing. However, they did charge Van Der Sloot around the time he was arrested in Chile.
LALAMA: Rupa Mikkilineni, Nancy Grace producer, this reconstruction or re-enactment that Jean mentioned, explain that to us. It`s a little bit differently done there, as opposed to here. What`s the point of it? And why do you think it`s not going to happen now?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. The reason to do something like this is to really have the witness or the confessor or -- talk through with the police at the crime scene exactly how the crime happened, to make sure -- for example, in this case, Joran Van Der Sloot has confessed. So we want to make sure what his -- that his story actually gels with the actual facts of what happened. So they want a re-enactment to make sure that everything corroborates.
Now, the reason that this hasn`t happened is confusing, Pat. I mean, as you heard from Jean Casarez earlier, we don`t know if it`s because his defense attorney stepped in perhaps last night at 10:00 PM, had a meeting with him and he said, Absolutely not, do not do this re-enactment, perhaps -- we don`t know -- or maybe it`s the truth, what the authorities are saying, that there just -- they already have enough evidence.
LALAMA: Mark Novak, former NYPD captain, president, Global Security Group -- I would think the authorities would want to do it anyway, just to cross the Ts, dot the Is and see if they can trip him up on anything. So I don`t know that I buy they feel that they have enough evidence. What do you say?
MARK NOVAK, FORMER NYPD CAPTAIN: Well, you know what, Pat? I would look at it this way. What do they have to gain from doing it? They have the videotape evidence. I`m sure they have a wealth of physical evidence from the room itself. And I would always ask myself, if I was conducting an investigation or I was going to do something, what do I really have to gain? Is there a value to it? Is there a benefit to doing it?
In this case, I don`t know that there is. So perhaps they`re telling the truth that they feel that what they have is fine, it`s substantial, and they`re going to move forward on the case, but -- I don`t really see the need to do it at this point, quite honestly.
LALAMA: Peter Schaeffer, defense attorney, are you guessing his lawyer has just told him not to cooperate?
PETER SCHAEFFER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. It`s a little late for his lawyer to tell him not to cooperate, since he`s already given a damning confession. But I mean, what`s going on in Peru is totally different than what would happen in the United States. The United States, by the time someone`s extradited, they would remain silent because they would have been advised beforehand. So I don`t know if the Peruvian authorities need any more evidence in this case.
LALAMA: Mickey Sherman, what do you think -- criminal defense attorney and author of "How Can You Defend Those People?" To me, it seems like if you can trip this guy up any way, get him in there and see if his stories mesh or don`t mesh.
MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He`s already confessed. And I think both answers are correct. I think the lawyer has stepped in. And unless the lawyer is an absolute moron, he put the brakes on it, which I think is what happened. He says, No, we`re not -- we`re not doing it. And at that point, the police authorities, to kind of save face, said, Well, we really didn`t need it anyway. So I think both answers are the correct answers.
But as has been said before, I mean, how many Ts do they have to cross and how many Is do they have to dot? They`ve got a confession. They`ve got a video of him going in there with her and her not coming out. They`ve got his DNA. God knows what else they have. You know, you don`t need a re-enactment.
LALAMA: Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner, do you agree there`s probably all kinds of physical evidence in that room and that maybe they figure they`ve got a lock-solid case?
DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Absolutely. With DNA nowadays, with a potential murder weapon, with clothing, blood that`s probably contained (ph) that`s from her, as well as him, perhaps, yes, I think you`re going to have a wealth of evidence.
LALAMA: Michael Griffith, international attorney, criminal defense attorney, he`s not going anywhere, no matter who might want him at this point, correct?
MICHAEL BELL, INTERNATIONAL ATTORNEY (via telephone): Oh, absolutely. I`ve had cases in Peru, and they`re going to keep him there. He`s probably looking at probably about 20 years in prison, now that he`s cooperating. In fact, I`ve been involved in these type of situations before, where they re-enact. I had a case in Monaco, the death of Edmond Safra (ph). Although I was against it, the other lawyers felt that -- the local lawyers felt that when you cooperate that you`ll be able to get possibly a lighter sentence. That`s probably what he`s looking at right now.
LALAMA: Pat Brown, criminal profiler and author, "The Profiler: My Life Hunting Serial Killers and Psychopaths." you know these kind of guys. This guy lies -- lies, lies, lies. How -- a confession, to me, really doesn`t mean much because he seem to get a lot of torment out of messing with people, for lack of a harsher word.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Right, Pat. And I will agree with you. This confession, to me, is going to be a lie. This is going to be him telling a story to get the lightest sentence possible. I would love to see that re-enactment because I don`t buy his stupid story that he got that upset because she happened to know his name and wanted to leave the room and all that lies about she slapped him, so then he had to kill her. Bull. I don`t believe it.
I think it was a sexual assault. I think they should be looking for signs of a sexual assault. Even if he didn`t try to sexually assault her through sexual intercourse, he may have been forcing her into oral sex because there are signs on her body that may have been what he was trying to do.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stephany went through his computer while he was gone. She may have found out information about himself associated with Natalee Holloway.
GRACE: So he gets slapped so he breaks her neck?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wasn`t self-defense.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The plan is to re-create the events leading to her death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You talk about hair fibers, blood evidence, fingernail scrapings. That is what`s going to prove the case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joran Van Der Sloot, the man police say confessed to killing 21-year-old Stephany Flores Ramirez in Peru, may, in fact, not go back to the scene of the crime after all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... everyone waiting for this re-enactment...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The re-enactment that we had been waiting for here at the hotel where the murder happened -- it may not happen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Van Der Sloot`s play by play could be crucial to the charges he`ll face and how severe his sentence will be.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Peruvian media are speculating Flores`s killing was premeditated because it happened on the fifth anniversary of Natalee Holloway`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s been a stressful time for me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was arrested twice, of course, in connection with the Holloway disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Given his demeanor and his constant lying, I don`t expect anything more out of him.
GRACE: Everything -- every single thing that Joran Van Der Sloot has said since Natalee`s murder has been a lie...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... released for lack of evidence, never charged.
GRACE: ... that she took drugs and went into seizures and died...
VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): This is what she did...
GRACE: ... that she had an epileptic fit and died...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s tried to avoid this justice system.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now he faces charges in Alabama.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was trying to get money from her family...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... from Beth Holloway, Natalee`s mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... in exchange for information on where the remains of Natalee Holloway would be.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... asked for $25,000 in cash up front and a total of $250,000.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Caryn Stark, we just have been talking about the lying. You just heard Nancy refer to it -- everything out of his mouth. I personally think he so enjoys tormenting people with stories. It`s a little game. Just give us an insight into the psychology of a person who does that.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s somebody who is actually having a lot of fun. It`s the same way that he would enjoy killing. It`s not the kind of thing that we would really get into, Pat, but it`s something that works for him. It gives him a charge.
I also think it`s really interesting that they were ever going to do an enactment because I can`t begin to imagine that they could believe anything that he does. He can enact whatever he wants, but he never sticks to the truth.
And it also doesn`t make any sense to me, by the way, that she was there and she was looking at his stuff on the computer and she saw he was connected to Natalee because he was with her for several days.
LALAMA: You know, I...
STARK: So all of a sudden, she was looking at the computer and...
LALAMA: I got to tell you, I never truly bought into that. I think that`s part of the lie. I think -- my guess is there was more of an attempt at a sexual assault. Mark Novak, do you have any opinions about that?
NOVAK: Absolutely. One thing that I`ve learned in dealing with a number of criminal defendants and people -- whenever they make a statement or a confession, they always put themselves in the best possible light. So I feel that`s probably what happened here -- if he was -- is that exactly what was said, she probably refused his sexual advances. This caused him and threw him into a rage, at which point he lashed out at her. Maybe perhaps it was more violent than he anticipated, wind up injuring and killing her. But I don`t believe at all for a minute the story about her looking at the computer and finding his name.
LALAMA: Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session," two questions. Do we have any idea what was said last night with the lawyer? And when is his next court appearance?
CASAREZ: All right, you may mean his first court appearance. He hasn`t appeared in court yet. We don`t know what was discussed with his attorney. But I think just the fact that they met with a translator, that is significant on the side of this defense.
His first court appearance will be when prosecutors bring charges, and we still don`t know when that is going to be. But that will be his first appearance before the judge. And the judge will determine then what jail he will go to during the pendency of this case.
LALAMA: Right. So -- and I misspoke. Absolutely, he has not been to court yet. When -- now, they do have a timeline on when they need to file these charges, correct?
CASAREZ: Well, it`s 10 days that the criminal investigation can go on for, and that would be until the end, about, of this week and during the weekend phase. But what happens, when the charges -- when the evidence is turned over to prosecutors, he will then be transferred to another jail, a holding cell. And it`s part of the prosecutor`s office. And then prosecutors will go to court. He will go before a judge during the formal charging time, and then transfer to another facility.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She slapped him. He then slapped her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He wants to blame Stephany, that it was her fault.
GRACE: The whole theory self-defense is ridiculous. If I slapped you, you can slap me back. That`s self-defense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A slap to a slap, a knife to a knife.
GRACE: I can`t slap you, then you break my neck.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... Joran Van Der Sloot...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s a psycho.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He became very upset.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... has confessed...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was an argument. They started fighting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... to killing Stephany Flores.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was a confrontation. There was an argument.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He started hitting -- beating her up...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She wanted to leave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... and ultimately breaking her neck.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her neck was broken.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He told them he did it because she found information on his laptop connecting him to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Now poor Joran is whining that he was forced into confessing, poor thing. Peter Schaeffer, defense attorney, I guess his attorney will jump on that, correct?
SCHAEFFER: Well, I mean, I don`t know what their rules are. We have the 5th Amendment here, where you can`t compel someone to give evidence against themselves. But the fact -- once he made the statement, whether he said something that`s not true or not, I mean, the cat`s out of the bag. And as Mickey pointed out, you have all of this other horrible evidence, the video of two people going in and one person coming out and the other person being found dead. So I don`t even think that the statement makes that much of a big deal. This is a groundball for the prosecutors, this case.
LALAMA: Mickey Sherman, do you agree with that?
SHERMAN: Yes, 100 percent. The -- by the way, I love when other guests quote me, by the way. The...
(LAUGHTER)
SHERMAN: The authorities have -- you don`t need to connect the dots and get a total re-enactment. His BS story that she attacked him -- it`s not like she came at him with a knife. She came at him with a laptop, a Macbook Pro or something. I mean, that`s his best story. This is -- this is -- there are no slam dunks, but this is as close as they come.
LALAMA: Patient callers, one of them being Daisy in New Jersey. Good evening, Daisy. Your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I want to know, did they ever find out or -- can you hear me?
LALAMA: Yes, I can.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK (INAUDIBLE) I want to know, did they ever find out -- dyeing his hair went from dark to red. And another thing is that I think that girl also probably spotted something on his computer and he got very angry.
LALAMA: Pat Brown, do you notice any color change in him over time, hair color change?
BROWN: Well, only when he was on the run. But as far as this girl spotting something, I mean, Joran Van Der Sloot has been opening his big mouth and telling everybody about what he did with or didn`t do with Natalee. And just because she found that, I don`t see that as a problem. What I do see as a problem -- yes, it`s a slam dunk for murder. But the question is, how many years is he going to get, only seven because it was sort of an accident, or is he going to get 35 because he was trying to commit a sexual assault while he was doing -- while he killed her? That`s the big difference.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His words were, I did not want to do it. The girl intruded into my private life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say he admitted to killing the 21-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joran Van Der Sloot was crying when he confessed to the murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say Van Der Sloot told them it was Flores`s interest in the Natalee Holloway case that set him off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: The 22-year-old Dutch playboy has admitted that he killed 21-year-old Stephany Flores in his hotel room.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Five years to the day that Natalee Holloway is reported missing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s a classic psychopath.
GRACE: Another young girl meets Van Der Sloot at a resort casino, just like Holloway.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Van Der Sloot was seen on surveillance tape leaving a casino with 21-year-old Stephany Flores Ramirez.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Van Der Sloot was arrested twice in connection with Natalee Holloway`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need justice for our family, for Natalee`s family, too.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cops say he remains the prime suspect.
BETH TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S MOTHER: My journey for justice has not ended.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Van Der Sloot was never charged in the case.
LINDA ALLISON, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S AUNT: I know that justice will come.
GRACE: The Dutch embassy? They don`t like the way Van Der Sloot`s portrayed in the U.S. media.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Did you kill Stephany? Are you innocent?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Why you kill her?
GRACE: Well, guess what? We don`t like the way they did nothing to find Natalee Holloway.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace. Rupa Mikkilineni, NANCY GRACE producer, we understand some master hackers are looking at Joran`s computer? Correct?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right. The Peruvian authorities are working very closely with the Aruban prosecutors to help them determine what kind of information was on that laptop taken from the crime scene.
Now allegedly, you may recall that that laptop had information possibly about Natalee Holloway. Now we don`t know if this is just Google information that the girl, Flores, the victim, may have just brought up on the computer on the Internet or if it might be pictures and files.
We have reports suggesting that there are pictures and files about Natalee Holloway on that laptop -- Pat.
LALAMA: David Ariosto, CNN producer in Aruba, what`s the buzz down -- in Aruba? Will they be -- will authorities be going to Peru? Where does the case stand for Natalee Holloway`s family?
DAVID ARIOSTO, CNN PRODUCER: Certainly, well. He wasn`t arrested in 2005, released for lack of evidence. Arrested again in 2007, again released for lack of evidence. So people here are very anxious to see what`s happening with a case that`s been five years in the making here.
We spoke earlier today with a government spokesman who`s been in constant -- or at least has tried to be in constant contact with Peruvian authorities who have now returned their calls. They`ve indicated to us that they`ve reached out to their Peruvian counterparts at least twice and have not received any word in terms of any sort of collaboration.
That said, the laptop in question is the prime issue that has caused much of the stir down here in Aruba. So speaking with people on the street, there`s a good amount of anger. The sense that this case has smeared Aruba`s good name, has potentially affected tourism here.
And so many people here and many individuals we`ve spoken to -- the relatives and the family as well as government spokesmen are affected, just looking for closure to a case that`s effectively five years old.
LALAMA: Caryn Stark, psychologist, we were discussing in the newsroom earlier if she did, in fact, look online or whatever to find information about him. There are psychopaths who store information about their crimes, are there not?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, there --
LALAMA: In other words --
STARK: That`s true.
LALAMA: In other words, it didn`t have to be a Google thing. Maybe if he did, in fact, kill Natalee Holloway, he could keep information -- I mean I know of stories where a lot of killers do that sort of thing. Is that possible?
STARK: You`re right, Pat. They also sometimes keep little souvenirs of what happened, things that belonged to the person. And it`s entirely possible that he does have information on there.
The question is how would we ever be able to know what`s true or not true? You know, I`m not even sure. When you`re a pathological liar, you wind up believing your lies. So it`s very hard to know.
LALAMA: It makes me wonder, Michael Griffith, international attorney, if his lies can save him in a way because he has -- the whole idea is to confuse the issue. What do you think?
MICHAEL GRIFFITH, INTERNATIONAL LAW ATTORNEY/CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, you know, he`s obviously got DNA. He had the flight, the consciousness of guilt to Chile, he`s evidently given them a statement.
And I want to mention what Jean Casarez said, Pat, because I`ve been down there in Peru. And he`s going to be going to one of two prisons. Either Lurigancho, which is one of the worst prisons in the world. I`ve been in prisons in over two dozen countries. And it`s not like the prisons here in South Hampton, New York where I practice law.
Lurigancho is for 10,000 people to 3,000 spaces. An inmate got stabbed right there in the -- in the visiting section.
Or he could go to Miguel Castro Castro, which is another prison where they might send him where 500 prisoners including 165 women have lawsuits for abuses by guards. And are you ready for this? The warden`s first day working at the prison, he was killed.
So this guy is walking into the gates of hell. He`s going to be in a room occupied by 35 people, a room 25x15 with a hole in the floor as a toilet. There`s going to be Shining Path Guerrilla groups only yards away, where 124 of them got killed one day in a prison revolt.
I`ll be frank with you. Knowing that these people here will cut your throat for $10, he may never make it to trial.
LALAMA: Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session," I`m just wondering the people in the community. What kind of reaction are you getting from the people about this case?
JEAN CASAREZ, CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, you know, just to look at the news headlines of the newspapers every morning, you see the state of mind of this country, Peru. And it`s that he`s already convicted. So thank goodness they have a three-judge panel and not a jury system here in Peru because it would be extremely hard if not impossible to find a jury.
And by the way, Lurigancho is one of the prisons, the jails, as a holding area that he may even be sent at. And I was able to look at some video last night from inside that facility. And it`s amazing. It was open air. People are just walking around. And they had civilian clothes on.
And it -- everything that he is saying I can see could be true because it looks like just you were walking in a community and anyone could have anything in their pockets.
LALAMA: Mark Novak, former NYPD captain, I don`t imagine the prisoners down there being able to scream, I demand my constitutional rights. They`re not going to protect them or take care of them, are they?
MARK NOVAK, FMR. NYPD CAPTAIN, PRESIDENT OF GLOBAL SECURITY GROUP: No. I don`t think -- I don`t see him going into a nice cushy camp fed, something that we have in the U.S. here, where he`s going to be isolated and perhaps have his own room and access to a weight room and cable TV and all those sort of good things.
I don`t think he`s going to have that down there. I think he`s in for a rough ride.
LALAMA: I want to go to another one of our callers. Gail in Pennsylvania. Good evening. Your question, please.
GAIL, CALLER FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, do you think that Van Der Sloot`s accomplices in Aruba will come now forward, explaining where Natalee`s body is, fearing that he may talk about their involvement first?
LALAMA: Mickey Sherman, do you want to take a stab at that one?
MICKEY SHERMAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "HOW CAN YOU DEFEND THOSE PEOPLE?": No, I don`t see it. Anybody who is involved in her murder are such (INAUDIBLE) that they`re not about to do the right thing for any reason. And I don`t think he`s going to drop a dime on these other people.
I think the best thing that could come out is if there`s a great forensic examination of the computer and, as another guest pointed out, there`s something on there that`s more than talk about it, you know, in the bane of the Hillside strangler, or the Boston strangler, you know, where they actually -- he kept records of what he did and when.
That would be the only good thing that could come out of this.
LALAMA: Dr. Michael Bell, Palm Beach County chief medical examiner, the physical evidence is so important and I`ve got to believe there`s plenty of it. What do you find to be most important? And is it possible that he could have hid -- you know I`m wondering about the clothes change. How do you see this playing out?
DR. MICHAEL BELL, PALM BEACH CO. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, again, as I mentioned before, the DNA evidence will be very important. I think to contradict his story, certainly if he can find any evidence of sexual assault, again, taken from the autopsy and examined for DNA, I think that would be very helpful in, again, arguing against the story that he has initially produced.
LALAMA: Rupa Mikkilineni, NANCY GRACE producer, let`s just make it clear. At this point there is no evidence of sexual assault, correct?
MIKKILINENI: That`s right. That`s what police have said. No evidence of sexual assault. Although, let`s not forget, Pat, that her body was found only partially clothed. She was wearing red panties and a t- shirt and nothing else.
LALAMA: Mm-hmm. Yes. That`s very interesting.
All right. Change subjects. On a happier note for just a moment. The Race Across America 2010 fundraising for the leukemia and lymphoma society. The Georgia Chain Gang making the 3,000-mile bike ride from San Diego to Annapolis starting June 12th.
Their goal is to raise $160,000 for research, education and patient services. The so-called Chain Gang riding on behalf of their crew chief Warren Bruno and 7-year-old Brendan Simpkins bravely battling leukemia for two years.
To donate, go to GAchaingang.org. Let`s win that fight against leukemia.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Van Der Sloot kills again.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Somebody who reportedly has lied time and time again.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Joran Van Der Sloot.
GRACE: Another young girl, just 21, meets Van Der Sloot at a resort casino.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Confessed to the killing of 21-year-old Stephany Flores Ramirez.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stephany Flores.
GRACE: Brutally beaten.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Had learned that he was implicated at one point in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.
GRACE: Bloody. Her neck cracked, broken.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He told investigators that he was high on pot.
ALLISON: He never wants to take responsibility for what he`s done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He does have a bargaining chip. I mean the Holloway family desperately wants to know what precisely happened to the daughter.
ALLISON: He did that with Natalee. He said it was her coming on to him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He may be telling many lies or many aspects of the murder already even with the confession trying to manipulate the system.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Van Der Sloot contacted a representative for the Holloways, and he said he would reveal the location of the Holloway -- of Holloway`s body and how she died in exchange for $250,000.
Now Van Der Sloot met the Holloway rep in Aruba, and a document says that he received a payment of $10,000 followed by a wire transfer of $15,000 to his account in The Netherlands.
And Van Der Sloot indicated a house where Holloway`s remains supposedly were located and then when the records showed that the house wasn`t even built at the time of her disappearance Van Der Sloot admitted that he lied.
The extortion operation was all videotaped by the FBI on May 10th. And on May 13th, Van Der Sloot left Aruba for Latin America.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Peter Schaffer, defense attorney, the FBI taking it on the chin a bit because it`s very easy to judge in hindsight. Do you believe the line, hey, we were still trying to build the case or could they have acted?
PETER SCHAFFER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, look, you know, if a police officer, a local police officer sees you rob a liquor store, they follow you and they arrest you right there. When a federal agency makes a case against you, sometimes they wait and build it.
I mean, it`s not uncommon. It`s just that the timing here was horrible because when they developed part of the case enough to make a case he has -- goes away, commits -- allegedly commits this homicide, and then their timing looks bad because then they file a complaint and charge him with extortion.
But I mean I do accept the fact that federal agencies like to build big cases and don`t always move in to make arrests.
LALAMA: Like to take another caller. And this time I believe we have Mary in Utah.
Good evening, Mary.
MARY, CALLER FROM UTAH: Hi. My question is about the extortion charge here in Georgia, I believe it is. Is there a statute of limitations on that? If he spends a bunch of years in Peru in prison?
LALAMA: Well, let`s ask Michael Griffith, international attorney. He`s in Peru, but could there be a statute of limitations on the fraud charges here?
GRIFFITH: Well, I`m sure -- I`m sure there is. I don`t have any rule book in front of me. But the -- but the government could argue that the statute of limitations is stalled, meaning stopped since he was in prison and they were not able to get to him.
What would happen would be he would be extradited back to the U.S. afterwards. And there`s something else, too, that he could -- that he could be charged with. You know, evidence may be discovered that he did kill Natalee Holloway, and if you commit a crime against an American citizen in a foreign country, there`s international law called the passive personality theory where we can track these people down like in the Leon Klinghoffer case on the Achille Lauro or the guys who bombed the embassy in Nairobi.
We tried to extradite these people. In the Klinghoffer situation, our planes --
LALAMA: Yes.
GRIFFITH: -- stopped a jetliner. But yes, we could possibly get him on a murder charge afterwards.
LALAMA: And, Peter Schaffer, defense -- actually, let me go to Mickey. I just went to Peter.
Mickey, you know, I think everyone is thinking about let`s pile on the charges.
SHERMAN: Yes.
LALAMA: And right now it looks like if we can -- we can do possibly murder extortion fraud -- well, I don`t know about extortion fraud down there, but murder, robbery -- and would it be considered not kidnapping but, you know, holding someone against their will? Can we add that one to it as well?
SHERMAN: Yes, absolutely. I mean state can call it custodial restrain restraint or something like -- custodial on appearance. But generally kidnapping usually passes muster. And, you know, I think there`s plenty to charge him with.
And I also agree with what another speaker said. I think the FBI`s being unfairly criticized here. They`re trying to make a good case. They`re being original about it. And they`re just -- they were trying to do their job.
There`s no way that they could have known in any possible manner that he was going to take their money, go out and fly to another country and kill somebody.
LALAMA: Yes, what a shocker. Pat Brown, criminal profiler, the talk around the water cooler is that`s a serial killer. Doesn`t necessarily fit the profile, correct?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "KILLING FOR SPORT": Absolutely not. A serial killer is someone who plans to kill somebody. That`s what he gets his thrill out of.
Joran Van Der Sloot doesn`t exhibit that. He exhibits himself as a serial date rapist who got really, really mad when the girls refused him.
And I want to point out one more thing about that computer which is interesting. Let`s say they go in that computer and they find there`s actually a search for Joran Van Der Sloot. That has nothing to do with the fact that Stephany necessarily put that in.
Look at it. Here he is. You`re going to cooperate with me, Stephany. No, I`m not. I`m not going to do that. Yes, you are. Don`t you know who I am? Your name Joran? Don`t you know Joran Van Der Sloot? No. What do you mean? Let me show you.
Joran Van Der Sloot. Hey, look at that. Look who I am. So does that mean that Stephany put that in the computer or could he have done it? So that`s the way a psychopath does things.
He twists things around as a partial truth. But then he lies. So be very careful not to believe what Joran Van Der Sloot says. But a serial killer, no. He`s a serial date rapist with a severe rage problem.
LALAMA: Yes, absolutely. Caryn Stark, psychologist. You know when you look at him, everything is about him. I`m the victim, I`m the victim. Everyone else has caused my life disruption.
Are people born this way or does something happen to them that makes it this way?
STARK: Probably a combination of both. Pat, that`s a question that everyone wants to have the answer. You`re probably born with the tendency, and then in the right environment, it comes out. But I -- you know, I really have to say that this guy`s a narcissist and that`s why you say everything is around him.
LALAMA: Yes. Before we go to break, we want to wish a -- another happy story, thankfully. I want to wish a special happy birthday to Daniel in Tennessee. A firefighter. He loves to ride his Harley, boating and four-wheeling. His biggest joys are his wife of five years Morgan and his 2-year-old daughter Emma.
Happy birthday, Daniel.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Van Der Sloot said he did it because Flores was asking too many questions about Natalee Holloway.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Van Der Sloot, what do you have to say?
GRACE: She`s gone through his computer. She finds out who Joran Van Der Sloot is.
GRIFFITH: Why did she go to that room?
GRACE: That he is suspected of murdering Natalee Holloway.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When Flores dies, security concerns.
CASAREZ: On the official police investigation report, it`s saying that she wasn`t clothed, but her underwear from her waist down.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Jean Casarez, are there any friends or family down there in support of Joran?
CASAREZ: Well, you know, this is something we`ve worked on to try to find out one way or the other. And Peruvian officials have sort of changed. Originally they told us that Joran`s mother was on her way, that she would be there by the end of the day. That was a couple of days ago.
Then yesterday they confirmed that he spoke with her on Saturday, that he asked for his mother. But no confirmation as to whether she was coming, or even if she had arrived. So at this point, anything is possible.
LALAMA: David Ariosto, it appears this person has a voracious gambling appetite. How is he supporting himself?
ARIOSTO: Well, he obviously comes from -- what purportedly a wealthy family. The details of his finances, however, are really unknown at this point. We spoke with the -- actually, we spoke with Natalee`s father`s attorney early this afternoon. We spoke on that very point.
She also went on to say that this entire case and this new renewed interest in the Holloway case here, as well as the Flores case in Peru, is kind of a double-edged sword at this point. While he`s looking for foreclosure, in many ways, it also is -- it dredges up some of the pain, painful memories that has caused over the years, as well as the international interest that descended on Aruba.
I can tell you now that reporters are again coming down here from some of the major U.S. networks. So he`s still very much, very much in the limelight.
LALAMA: Mickey Sherman, I just have a few seconds. But, you know, there`s talk that he -- or he claims he was under the influence. Will that play into this as a defense at all?
SHERMAN: Well, the best part is, under the influence of marijuana. I mean there`s a recent study down there. You know nobody drives drunk from marijuana. The only person under the influence of marijuana is the marijuana dealer who`s making money. That`s an absurd defense.
LALAMA: OK. All right. Well, let`s hope we can somehow bring peace to the Holloway family and the Flores family as well. Any possible way.
Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Staff Sergeant Todd Olson, 36, from Loyal, Wisconsin, killed in Iraq. He served the National Guard 17 years and was awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart and Army Achievement Medal.
He loved being active with his church`s youth group and Pop Warner. He leaves behind parents Donald and Shirley, widow Nancy, four children, Trevor, Jesse, Cody and Casey.
Todd Olson, an American hero.
Thank you to all of our guests and to you at home for being with us. See you tomorrow night 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, everybody.
END
