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Campbell Brown
BP CEO on Capitol Hill; Interview With Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich
Aired June 17, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody.
Today, on day 59 of the disaster in the Gulf, attention shifts to Capitol Hill for a picture we have seen with growing frequency. An embattled CEO stands before Congress, raises his right hand and swears to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
But after an epic daylong grilling for Tony Hayward, have we actually learned anything? Or was BP's CEO, in the words of Committee Chairman Henry Waxman, stonewalling?
Also tonight, our exclusive investigation of another deadly BP explosion five years ago down in Texas, and the company e-mails that critics are calling a smoking gun.
And, later, fighting oil with fire: spectacular pictures of controlled burns of the spilled oil in the Gulf. We got a lot to get to tonight.
But we are going to begin with that number-one story, Tony Hayward on Capitol Hill today. One after another, members of the House Energy and Commerce Committee fired tough questions at BP's CEO, but substantive answers were and far between. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ELIOT ENGEL (D), NEW YORK: Can't you just admit that decisions were made that were wrong, instead of sitting there and telling us you don't know and you have to await an investigation?
TONY HAYWARD, CEO, BP GROUP: I am very, very sorry that this accident occurred, very sorry. I deeply regret it. I deeply regret it for very many reasons. And I do believe that it's right to investigate it fully and draw the right conclusions.
REP. HENRY WAXMAN (D), CALIFORNIA: They're going to have a hard time reaching conclusions if you stonewall them, which is what we seem to be getting today.
HAYWARD: I'm not stonewalling.
REP. CLIFF STEARNS (R), FLORIDA: Do you think BP has reckless behavior?
HAYWARD: I believe all accidents are preventable. STEARNS: I want you to say that you don't think BP has no reckless behavior.
HAYWARD: I have seen no evidence of reckless behavior.
STEARNS: OK, all right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And no surprise that the hearing included a political sideshow that started when Texas Republican Joe Barton blasted the agreement by the White House and BP to put $20 billion in escrow to compensate victims of the oil spill. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOE BARTON (R), TEXAS: I'm ashamed of what happened in the White House yesterday.
I think it is a tragedy of the first proportion that a private corporation can be subjected to what I would characterize as a shakedown, in this case, a $20 billion shakedown.
JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I find it incredibly insensitive, incredibly out of touch. There is no shakedown. It's insisting on responsible conduct and a responsible response to something they caused.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Congressman Barton did later retract that apology to BP.
So, is all of this a lot of sound and fury? Will anything change as a result of today's hearing?
Joining me now is Robert Reich, who is secretary of labor in the Clinton administration -- was -- and author of "Supercapitalism: The Transformation of Business, Democracy, and Everyday Life," and also Kenneth E. Arnold, who is an industry consultant who spent 16 years in management and Shell.
Kent, let me start with you.
What do you think? Did we learn anything? So many questions it seemed that Tony Hayward couldn't answer, that committee chairman, Henry Waxman, as we mentioned a moment ago, accused him of stonewalling. Were we meant to learn something from this grilling?
KENNETH E. ARNOLD, K. ARNOLD CONSULTING, INC.: Well, I think it is really instructive to look at the way in which we as a nation are handling this investigation or groups of investigations, as the opposed to the way the British handled the 1998 Piper Alpha disaster, which many of us think I much worse, because 167 people lost their lives. It occurred in British waters. And it was an American oil company, Occi, who did it.
BROWN: So -- so, what -- explain the analogy.
ARNOLD: Well, in that case, what they did is they put together a very high-level commission of people under Lord Cullen, and it included people with a lot of knowledge in safety and investigations and in how things are supposed to work on the oil industry.
BROWN: Right.
ARNOLD: They had a detailed investigation. And nobody in Parliament called Armand Hammer, the CEO of Occi, to come in. Margaret Thatcher or whoever was prime minister at the time didn't keep harping on the fact that it was an American company.
They actually tried to learn from the incident, write a report that was very instructive, and that helped change the culture of the whole industry.
BROWN: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
ARNOLD: That's the way a mature country would do it. I think we are showing an immature attitude.
BROWN: Bottom line here, there was a lot of showboating today, without an attempt to get real answers out of the -- out of BP or anybody else, I guess, for that matter.
Secretary Reich, do you agree with that? Was there any \progress?
ROBERT REICH, FORMER U.S. LABOR SECRETARY: Well, I think, Campbell, the only thing we learned today is that there are at least two people who are completely out of touch.
One is Tony Hayward, who seemed to know nothing and have no expertise and basically seemed to wash his hands of all responsibility and say he was very sorry, but he didn't know why it occurred, and maybe it would -- maybe it just were bad decisions. It was not recklessness, he said, but he just had no knowledge. He was not there.
The other person who was completely out of touch was Representative Joe Barton, the senior, ranking Republican on the Energy and Commerce Committee, who said there shouldn't have even been an escrow account set up, it was a shakedown of BP. Look, most of the American public...
BROWN: And then changed his mind and apologized, under pressure from Republican leaders.
(CROSSTALK)
REICH: Yes, he changed his mind under great pressure, because the Republicans thought, oh, my. He has actually put his foot in the tar in a big way and made him, Joe Barton, the story of the day, rather than Tony Hayward.
BROWN: So, respond to that, Ken, if you will, because that became a huge issue. And he frankly isn't the only person expressing that sentiment.
A number of conservatives have said something very similar. Congresswoman Michele Bachmann called it extortion. Congressman Tom Price calling it Chicago-style shakedown politics. Former Majority Leader Dick Armey saying that the Constitution doesn't give the executive branch that authority.
Ken, you there?
ARNOLD: Yes, I am. I didn't hear a question in what you said.
BROWN: I wanted to get your reaction to what Secretary Reich just said.
(CROSSTALK)
ARNOLD: I am going to leave the reaction to politicians like Secretary Reich and people who -- who like to pontificate a lot.
I'm not in that business. I am an engineer. I am concerned about the moratorium. I am concerned about stopping the flow of oil. I'm concerned about the relief wells. I'm concerned about getting people back to work again. Those are things that are important.
And I think this is all theater. All of the reports are -- you know, it's just to make people feel well. And maybe that is OK. I don't care.
BROWN: So, do you, though, as a...
REICH: Look, I want to agree with Ken, if I may, not about me being a politician or liking to pontificate.
(LAUGHTER)
REICH: But I do agree that the real issue here is how to stop this leak right now, and how to clean it up and make sure this doesn't happen again -- 60,000, 60,000 barrels a day. We're talking millions of gallons.
What -- the real concern that came out -- and I certainly felt it after looking at the transcript today -- is that the head of BP -- and this is a company that is supposed to have the expertise to plug the hole. The head of BP had absolutely no idea what happened, has no expertise at all.
And for politicians to basically say, BP, you should be plugging the hole, I think, is ridiculous. BP should be paying the tab, yes. But BP should not be in charge of this operation. BP does not have any expertise.
BROWN: Well, I think general agreement here that there was not much that any of us I think learned from that. And, hopefully, if we go through this exercise again, it will be more productive in the future.
Secretary Reich, always appreciate your time.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: And, Ken Arnold, as well.
Thanks to both of you.
Tonight, a CNN exclusive investigation into another deadly BP disaster. Did BP really hope this refinery blast would be ignored by America because of a holiday weekend and Terri Schiavo? We have gotten a new look at stunning documents, hundreds of them, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Our number-one business story: BP and its corporate culture. At today's Capitol Hill hearing, one lawmaker after another questioned whether the company has a history of putting safety far down its list of priorities. And nobody seemed satisfied with Tony Hayward's answers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAYWARD: We've engaged in a systematic change at BP over the last three years. We -- we have begun to change the culture.
REP. BART STUPAK (D), MICHIGAN: And under your tenure, you said you had the 2007 report that was scathing of BP's culture. We still have problems with Alaska. You said you're going to hold people accountable. Who are we going to hold accountable here?
STEARNS: Has anyone in BP been fired because of this incident, anybody?
HAYWARD: No, so far.
REP. BRUCE BRALEY (D), IOWA: BP's refineries racked up 760 citations for egregiously willful safety violations. That doesn't sound like a culture of safety.
REP. GENE GREEN (D), TEXAS: Whether it was the Alaskan pipeline disaster or the Texas City refinery fire where 15 people died, time after time it's been shown that BP chooses expediency over safety.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Tonight, that Texas refinery tragedy is the focus of a CNN exclusive investigation, and we are finding a paper trail that speaks to what some claim is the real culture of BP, putting profit above all else, including safety.
Company documents show BP workers in fear before the disaster back in 2005, and the oil giant racing into spin control mode almost immediately after it began.
Abbie Boudreau has our special investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Seeing one, two, three flames, and they're being fueled by whatever is running through those lines.
ABBIE BOUDREAU, CNN SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS UNIT (voice-over): These are images from a different BP explosion from five years ago at a BP refinery in Texas City, Texas -- 15 workers killed, 180 injured.
(on camera): This is something you are never going to get over.
MIGUEL ARENAZAS, TEXAS CITY EXPLOSION SURVIVOR: Never, as long as I am alive, as long as I have this back pain, as long as I have my neck pain, every time that I try to get out of bed or every time that I try to bend over. You know, thank you, BP. This is what you have done to me.
BOUDREAU (voice-over): Miguel Arenazas survived the Texas City explosion in 2005. He says he knows what Deepwater Horizon rig workers and their families are going through.
It is going to be something that you are going to live with for the rest of your life.
BOUDREAU: Brent Coon was the lead plaintive attorney who represented many of the victims in negligence lawsuits after the Texas City explosion. All but one of his cases reached a settlement with BP.
Coon uncovered more than seven million internal BP documents during his investigation.
(on camera): Sometimes, people find one smoking gun document, but we have seen a lot of these documents. There is one after another after another.
BRENT COON, PLAINTIFF'S ATTORNEY: You look for that one smoking gun where somebody internally says, if we don't fix this, we are going to have a problem. And in this case, what was shocking was that we didn't just find that smoking gun. We found an entire arsenal.
BOUDREAU: BP would never have wanted these documents out?
COON: Oh, no. I don't think anybody that would have had documents like that would ever want them to see the light of day.
BOUDREAU (voice-over): He says these documents now have a whole new meaning and give a rare insight into the culture of BP.
(on camera): Do you remember this e-mail?
COON: I remember that. It made me sick to my stomach. BOUDREAU (voice-over): This e-mail was written only hours after the Texas City explosion, BP's public relations machine hard at work. The subject line says, "Media coverage and loss of life." It goes on to say: "Expect a lot of follow-up coverage tomorrow. Then I believe it will essentially go away, due to the holiday weekend."
COON: This is a public relations director that is telling the president and the other people at that plant that we got good news. We just killed a bunch of people, but it is coming up on a weekend. That's the best time in the world to kill a bunch of people is just before a weekend, an Easter weekend, or long weekend, or a holiday, because everybody gets distracted and forgets about it.
BOUDREAU: And also distracted by another big story.
(voice-over): At that time, all eyes were on a 41-year-old brain-damaged Florida woman named Terri Schiavo. The debate whether her feeding tube would be removed had captivated the country. But, apparently, the timing of that story was a good thing for BP.
The last line of the e-mail says: "This is a very big story in the U.S. right now, but the Terri Schiavo story is huge as well."
(on camera): CNN has learned that many of the people on that e- mail are still working at BP. Coon says that makes sense, since the company seems to be handling today's crisis much like the one from years ago. This time, it's been accused of controlling the images of the spill and downplaying just how much oil is being leaked.
(voice-over): Coon also showed us a document he obtained from the 2005 case that he likes to call the dirty words document, a slide from a presentation created by lawyers hired by BP that spelled out language workers should avoid using in incident reports, like criminal, reckless, and dangerous.
(on camera): What did you think when you read this?
COON: I said, I can't (EXPLETIVE DELETED) believe it. This is as good of a smoking gun as you can get. I could not believe that I would get a document that was generated by BP's attorneys that told BP employees how to sanitize their records.
BOUDREAU: And why would they want them to do that?
COON: Because they don't want to have anything in any of the reports or anything in writing that indicates that they did anything wrong.
BOUDREAU (voice-over): Coon says this internal BP internal document gives a cost/benefit analysis of the safety risks for the company employees by using the story the three little pigs. The pigs represented BP employees.
Court documents show BP says the chart was only a simple way of explaining a concept and that business decisions weren't made by following the chart. COON: They actually looked at the numbers, what is it going to cost to fix the problem that we know is there, vs. how many people are going to die if we don't fix the problem, and which one is cheaper.
BOUDREAU: Arenazas has settled with BP. Five years later, he is still in pain and is still angry.
ARENAZAS: What really matters for BP? Their money is what really matters for them, their money. We can be replaced.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And next, you are going to learn more about why those BP workers genuinely feared for their lives before the deadly blast -- when we come back. You will also see how the government responded and what BP is telling us now.
Also tonight, Ali Velshi takes us out to the middle of the Gulf for an incredible look at one way to try to stem the oil spill: Set it on fire before it hits shore. Is it working?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well before the current crisis in the Gulf, some BP employees were charging the oil giant fostered a culture that prized profits over safety, a culture that left many field workers in fear for their lives.
The situation came into sharp focus during BP's handling of another deadly disaster five years ago, a refinery explosion in Texas that claimed 15 lives and left 180 injured.
And here is part two of Abbie Boudreau's exclusive investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BOUDREAU (voice-over): Brent Coon represented many of the victims from the 2005 Texas City refinery explosion. He says BP has a history of covering up its problems. He showed CNN employee surveys from the Texas City site from 2004 and 2005, complaints to management about corners being cut and dangerous conditions being ignored.
(on camera): What stood out to you?
COON: The rank-and-file, the people working these plants had been begging for safety at so many different levels for so long. And it was all on deaf ears.
BOUDREAU (voice-over): In one survey, a worker said, "Quit waiting for a known possible unit disaster to happen before correcting the problem."
Another stated, "This company deliberately put my life in danger to try and save a buck."
A different employee said, "Pipe thinning worries me the most. Its failure could be catastrophic, with little warning."
And this worker said, "If this facility was an aircraft carrier, we would be at the bottom of the ocean."
COON: So many people were afraid of dying, not afraid of their jobs, not afraid of something that they didn't like, not afraid of not getting a pay raise or losing their medicals -- afraid of dying.
BOUDREAU: In fact, an independent survey of BP workers in Texas City backed his claim. It stated, "We have never seen a site where the notion 'I could die today' was so real for so many hourly people."
COON: I don't think there is a shred of evidence in BP's favor that shows they have done anything to change their corporate safety culture.
BOUDREAU (on camera): BP says it has changed, that the culture has changed.
COON: BP is a pathological liar.
BOUDREAU: After Texas City, OSHA, the federal agency in charge of enforcing safety regulations,fined BP $21 million and told the company it needed to fix the problems that led to the explosion. But that didn't happen. So, Just last October, OSHA fined BP yet again, this time, a proposed $87 million penalty, the largest penalty the agency's history. BP is contesting the citations and penalties.
(voice-over): In response to this story, BP turned down our request for an on-camera interview and provided a statement to CNN.
This is part of that response: "BP has worked diligently since the accident in March 2005 to address safety concerns at the Texas City site. BP has spent more than $1 billion at Texas City to address safety concerns since 2005. We continue to work cooperatively with OSHA to resolve these matters. We are determined to learn from this event and get better as a company."
Brent Coons says that's just not enough. He feels that the deepwater tragedy could have been prevented.
COON: We forewarned this. The Department of Justice was involved. We did everything that we could to draw the attention to our legislators, both at a state and a federal level and to the media and everyone else that BP has a lot of systemic problems that they are never going to change unless somebody makes them change. And if they have don't make them change, something worse is going to happen. And it won't be that long. And it did happen.
BOUDREAU (on camera): You think someone should go to jail?
COON: I think a lot of people should go to jail.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Abbie is joining me right now. And, Abbie, the Justice Department investigated that Texas explosion. What came of it? Was anybody ever held accountable?
BOUDREAU: No one from BP was held criminally accountable. The company ended up paying a criminal fine of $50 million and pleaded guilty to one felony violation.
And, of course, we, have talked to many people who say that top managers at BP should have gone to jail for what happened -- Campbell.
BROWN: And in the hearing today, you had more than one congressman bringing up the explosion as an example of what they called BP's culture of disregard for safety. What was Tony Hayward's response to that?
BOUDREAU: Well, Campbell, he said there were -- a lot of changes were made to the company after both the Texas City explosion in 2005 and the Alaska incident in 2006. But it's hard for anyone to know how effective those safety changes were, in light of all that is coming out right now -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Abbie Boudreau for us tonight.
And be sure to check out CNN.com/Campbell. You will find out more about Abbie's exclusive investigation, including some of those controversial BP documents.
And now to the task of taking some of that oil out of the water, or trying to -- coming up, a dramatic look up close at how one of nature's most powerful forces is being used to try to contain the worst environmental disaster we have ever faced.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Our number-one environmental story comes from another Capitol Hill hearing today.
While Tony Hayward was testifying before House Energy and Commerce Subcommittee, Kevin Costner was blasting big oil at the Senate Committee on Small Business. The actor has worked for 17 years on new technology to try to clean up oil spills. And he begged lawmakers to keep the freeze on new offshore deepwater drilling in place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN COSTNER, ACTOR: What I would recommend if I could, right, what I would demand if I could, and I can do neither, so, what I would beg -- what I would beg the leaders in this country and the oil industry together, would be before you lift the moratorium, before you do that, to please have clean-up technology in place or at least on a way, in a specific time that's designed to meet and match with full force the worst case scenario that can be presented to us.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: Costner said that he has spent now more than $1 million just this past month pushing his new technology. And of all the ways to tackle the crude oil spilling into the gulf, one is relatively simple and proving to be pretty successful. Fire. And it's removing thousands of barrels of oil a day. It is the controlled burn of oil gathered on the surface of the gulf, something not tried in American waters since the Exxon Valdez disaster back in 1989. And CNN's Ali Velshi went out with the Coast Guard to give us a pretty extraordinary look at how it's done.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: It's about 2:45. We've been on this vessel "The Gulf Storm" for about an hour and a half now. Louisiana is that way. We're heading about 50 miles into the Gulf of Mexico, right around where the oil spill was for in-situ burning of oil that's on the surface of the ocean.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: See they've got at least three fires going.
VELSHI: Wow.
We're a few miles away from the source of the spill. There are -- I saw about seven different in-situ fires. You'll see as we come up, there are shrimpers on either side of that fire. That's where the boom is connected. They corral the oil basically that is then set on fire. And a successful burn will look like that. And if you look up, you'll see that, the collection of all these burns have created a bit of a cloud above us. It's darker here than it is in the areas around us. That's what you want to see. That's --
ANDREW JAEGER, U.S. COAST GUARD: It is. We call those our mega burns or our very successful burn.
VELSHI: If you look up, if you follow this thing up, and you see it up to there, it's like a weather system being created here.
JAEGER: Pretty much all of the scientists agree especially at this distance from the shore that the temporary localized air pollution effects are a much better situation for the environment than this oil making it to shore. As you'll see over time, the smoke clouds will go away within a few miles.
VELSHI: So even though this is crude oil, it's been degraded a little bit from its mixture of the water. You can't sort of just throw a match on it and hope that it's going to ignite. So what happens is they put one of these in with it. This is two half gallon jugs of diesel. You know, it's painted red, it's dyed red, and it's got a gelling agent in it. And then at the bottom here, you see a flare.
You can see the fire in the background. That one's been going on for a while actually. It's a very successful fire. Now you can see in the foreground, you can see a little of this boom here. They've corralled more oil, and they're getting ready to ignite that. Now that's the ignition boat over there. Now we'll gently deploy the igniter into the pooled oil. There he is. He's putting the igniter. He's left it in there. How long is that going to take?
JAEGER: Usually after three to five minutes of sustained diesel burning, the crude oil will catch fire.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll tell you we're averaging, 2,000 to 5,000 barrels an hour in these kinds of burns.
VELSHI: Wow, amazing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think our record was 30, 30,000 in one day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This burn will probably continue into the night.
VELSHI: All right, it's 7:30. We left Venice, Louisiana, at 1:30 this afternoon. So we're gone for about six hours. We are now heading back. They don't actually set fires this late at night. If there are fires that have been set that continue to burn, they'll continue to burn. But this operation is going to start again at sunrise. They're going to keep on burning this oil. They said they're going to keep on doing it until there's no more oil left to burn.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And Ali is joining me right now live from New Orleans. And, Ali, I have to ask you, these huge black plumes, I mean, they can't be good for the environment or the workers who are out there. Is this really the best way to go about this?
VELSHI: Well, as the -- the senior chief from the Coast Guard was telling me, they've determined that the damage done by burning this off is going to be better in the end for the environment than the other alternative which is the tens of thousands of gallons that they burn every day making its way to shore, getting all over those animals, continuing to kill shrimp and the oysters and things like that.
Here is the issue. They've got an EPA person on site constantly monitoring air quality. And I have to say close to the surface of the ocean, the water, you're not smelling all that much unless you're directly downwind from the oil. But you saw that plume of smoke. Seems to be the better of two evils in this particular case, Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Ali Velshi for us tonight. Ali, thanks very much.
Coming up, tonight Utah is going to carry out an execution the likes of which we haven't seen in more than a decade. Just hours from now, a murderer is scheduled to die before a firing squad. The manner of his death is his choice and the subject of fierce debate. His story is coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In a few hours, a convicted killer in Utah will be executed by a firing squad. And that is causing some controversy since Utah is the last state in the nation using firing squads. That is coming up. But first, Joe Johns is here with a look at some of the other stories we'll following tonight.
Hey, Joe.
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Campbell. A federal grand jury has indicted Faisal Shahzad, the man who allegedly tried to set off a car bomb in Times Square last month. Shahzad faces 10 counts including conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction and attempt to commit international terrorism. Senior counterterrorism officials say he also considered attacks on Rockefeller Center and Grand Central Terminal. Shahzad, a naturalized American citizen, faces life in prison if convicted.
Israel is easing its blockade of Gaza. Tonight, the State Department says that's a good start. Israel will now allow food and some construction material into the Hamas-ruled Palestinian territory by land route. Israel was under intense international pressure to end the blockade after a deadly raid on an aid flotilla last month.
It's not exactly snakes on a plane, but it's still pretty creepy. A Southwest Airlines employee was checking out a suspicious package when he found human heads inside a box. The plane was about to fly from Little Rock to Fort Worth, Texas. Med (ph) Products says the body parts are used for medical research. Arkansas authorities are trying to figure out whether any laws were broken.
Forget your right of privacy if you want to use a cell phone or any other text messaging device issued by your employer for personal reasons. Today, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled public employees who send personal messages on their state issued devices do not enjoy a reasonable expectation of privacy. The court concluded that state officials had the right to review the records of a California police officer who exchanged personal messages, some of them sexually explicit, on his department text pager.
And, Campbell, that just seems like a no brainer. If it's the company's phone --
BROWN: Yes.
JOHNS: -- don't use it for personal messages.
BROWN: I'm guessing a lot of people making note of that tonight. Joe Johns, Joe, thanks very much.
And coming up next, the 11th hour appeal of a convicted murderer scheduled to die just after midnight in front of a firing squad. Stay with us. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: After 25 years on death row, a condemned murderer will be executed shortly after midnight. Barring an unlikely reprieve by the Supreme Court, Ronnie Lee Gardner will be killed by a firing squad. Yes, a firing squad, a fate that Gardner chose himself. CNN's Ted Rowlands has the story from Utah, the last state in the nation to allow this type of execution.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A chair surrounded by sandbags facing a cement wall with a slot for five rifles. This is the state of Utah's firing squad execution chamber. The chair is for 49-year-old Ronnie Gardner.
RONNIE GARDNER, CONDEMNED PRISONER: I know killing me is going to hurt them just as bad. I know it for a fact because I did on the other side of that gun. So I know. It's no joke.
ROWLANDS: In 1985 trying to escape from the Salt Lake City courthouse, Gardner wounded a deputy and killed Attorney Michael Burdell with a gun that had been smuggled to him. The year before, Gardner murdered Melvyn Otterstrom, an accountant who was moonlighting at this Salt Lake City bar.
CRAIG WATSON, FRIEND OF MELVYN OTTERSTROM: He said that Melvyn disrespected him because he didn't serve him a pitcher of beer fast enough.
ROWLANDS: Melvyn Otterstrom's lifelong friend, Craig Watson, is planning to witness the execution with Otterstrom's son who was 3- years-old when Gardner killed his father.
WATSON: I think he chose the firing squad because I think he thought he'd get some sensationalism out of it. As long as he's executed, I don't care how it's done.
ROWLANDS (on camera): The firing squad will be using a 30- caliber rifle, each member with one 30-caliber bullet in the chamber. We're going to show you what the impact of this bullet is in just a second. But first, we want to show you how far away Gardner will be. It will not be far at all. He'll be sitting in a chair just 20 feet away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The (INAUDIBLE) locates the heart so that we have that position centrally located. They put a target on his heart area so that the firing squad knows exactly where they should be aiming it.
ROWLANDS: Take a look and see what that one bullet did to this target. You can see a large hole in the middle there. Gardner will have four bullets aimed directly into his heart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Assuming that they do hit their target, this is a very quick, instantaneous type thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As soon as the bullets hit, the shock is going to set in. He won't feel anything from then on. Brain function will stop after about 15 seconds.
ROWLANDS (voice-over): The firing squad is made up of five volunteers from the law enforcement community. One will be issued a blank, so nobody will know for sure if they delivered one of the fatal shots.
This man who doesn't want to be identified was a member of Utah's last firing squad 14 years ago. He told CNN, quote, "I've shot squirrels I've felt worse about. There's just some people we need to kick off the planet. Gardner may be the last person to die this way, Utah, the only state still using the firing squad for executions, is phasing it out in favor of lethal injection.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And Ted Rowlands is joining us right now from Draper, Utah with more on this. Ted, do we know when the Supreme Court might rule on his appeal?
ROWLANDS: Well they have until midnight local. They have three separate appeals still in front of them that they could rule on. Or they couldn't. They may not. It's expected though that they are working, we know that, still this evening. And they are expecting to get some word here in Utah. If they don't hear from the Supreme Court, after the stroke of midnight, they will make a phone call to the attorney general's office, before they move forward with this execution just to be sure that there is nothing out there preventing them from executing Mr. Gardner.
BROWN: All right, Ted Rowlands for us tonight. Ted, thank you very much.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes. Larry, what do you have tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Well, what don't we have. The head of BP took it on the chin again today. We'll talk about his testimony on Capitol Hill, if you call it that. And then we're going to live to Utah, where as you just discussed a murderer is set to die by firing squad, right after midnight, Utah time. We'll talk to his relatives and the people who knew his victims. That's all next on "LARRY KING LIVE" -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll see you in a few minutes.
Coming up, I talk to Samantha Bee, from Comedy Central's "The Daily Show," a reporter known for delivering her own distinct take on the news. After this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Wisecracking reporter Samantha Bee may be the most unconventional correspondent covering the news today. A seven-year veteran of "The Daily Show" she is known for her razor-sharp wit and goofing on her often unsuspecting guest. Here she is interviewing a trio from Long Island about becoming their own state. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We could give up any other state you got.
SAMANTHA BEE, "THE DAILY SHOW": What state could you give up? And please don't say Rhode Island or Connecticut, because everybody knows those states are pussy states.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you got, Wyoming, Iowa?
BEE: What do you think?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ireland (ph).
BEE: I don't think that counts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, states, I'm sorry.
BEE: Other states.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel like a retard now.
BEE: Other states not in Europe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Staten Island.
BEE: (INAUDIBLE) states.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Canada.
BEE: Canada, OK. We have --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Europe, right?
BEE: OK, I'm sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New Jersey?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes, New Jersey is the first to go.
BEE: Isn't that like beating up your conjoined twin, though? You're so genetically similar.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Well, now, Bee has written her first book. It's called "I Know You Are, But What Am I?". I sat down with Bee earlier to try to get the answer.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Samantha Bee, welcome to you.
SAMANTHA BEE, REPORTER: Hello. Thank you so much for having me.
BROWN: Let's talk about the book. BEE: OK, yes.
BROWN: You do not hold back.
BEE: No, I don't. And people are shocked. It's quite candid.
BROWN: Is this true? Like you talk about things like you used to steal cars.
BEE: I did. I jacked cars through my --
BROWN: And that -- but this is not just being funny. You actually used to steal.
BEE: No, I actually did. I actually -- I'm not saying that it relates to childhood, teen life. This is what teens do.
Yes, I did. I don't know that I could do it now. If I was going to boost your car, let's say. I don't know there's a lot of electronic gizmos now. I mean, we were very -- it was very bare bones operation.
BROWN: But, stealing cars, you talk -- you talk about how your mom taught you about the birds and the bees by giving you this very graphic book when you were seven years old.
BEE: It was really a glossary of sexual acts and terms. It was far more explicit than any 7-year-old really needed to be exposed to. But I learned a lot. Early exposure to these kinds of things made me who I am today.
BROWN: And then the first time you were intimate with your first boyfriend, your kids are going to read this.
BEE: Reasonably early. Yes, they are going to read it. But I figure, you know, they're definitely going to hate me for long stretches of time when they're teens. So --
BROWN: And then through enough therapy.
BEE: Through, you know, I figure I might as well just give them the ammunition that they need to mock me right out front. I mean, what else have they got? Absolutely, there's nothing left.
BROWN: Did you have any hesitation about doing it? Sort of putting all this out there, this is what comedians do. They use their life.
BEE: Yes. I mean, I use my life. I mean, I don't feel ashamed of that. I feel like my whole history has made me the person that I am today. And probably being so irresponsible and such a derelict for so many years caused me to go into comedy on some level.
BROWN: But you weren't always a professional. You've always been very funny, but you weren't a professional comedian on the circuit, right? BEE: No. Oh, no, no, no. I didn't really come to comedy until my late, really my late 20s.
BROWN: So what was it?
BEE: It was -- well, I didn't even come to performing at all until my late 20s. So I thought I would end up being a lawyer. Oh, my God, I'm very grateful that I don't have the passion for corporate tax laws that, you know, I thought I did. And I ended up taking a theater course that's kind of a (INAUDIBLE), since it would really boost my GPA. And so I wanted to be a very serious actor and then nobody ever hired me for anything serious. The world does not see me in that way.
BROWN: Well, who knows. There is a whole future ahead.
BEE: Well, I did do "Law & Order" this year. And then look what happened to that franchise.
BROWN: Oh --
BEE: I apologize to everyone for that.
BROWN: You joined "The Daily Show" in, what? 2003.
BEE: 2003, yes.
BROWN: And it's kind of been a boys club. But then there was this new female correspondent, Olivia Munn, who started just last season.
BEE: Yes.
BROWN: So let's take a look.
BEE: OK.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMANTHA BEE: I'm sorry, excuse me. Coming through. I'm sorry, honey.
JON STEWART: Sam, Sam, what are you doing?
BEE: Well, I'm not fly fishing. John, like a greasy Katrina, the spill has reached its oily tentacles around the very livelihood --
STEWART: Yes, Sam, Sam, I'm sorry, that was terrific. Olivia is actually covering the story for us. So --
BEE: I'm sorry, who?
OLIVIA MUNN: Hi.
BEE: Oh, oh, no, no, no, no, no. No, John, this show already has a sexy news bunny. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BEE: Yes.
BROWN: Oh.
BEE: Smooth lines.
BROWN: It was.
BEE: The contours of my body in those rubber pants. Mmm.
BROWN: In this kind of a boys club over there, though, isn't it, or no?
BEE: Well, it really isn't. I mean, that is definitely the perception. But I have never personally felt that way. I feel like I might have the dirtiest mind there. So I'm not saying that you have to have a dirty mind to be in a boys club but it does not hurt.
BROWN: And your hubby works there too?
BEE: He does.
BROWN: Jason Jones, who has I'm sure a lot of fans out there as well. How does that work? Is it hard? Is it fun? Is it --
BEE: I don't know how we would -- I really am very appreciative of, you know, to the show for hiring him. Because I don't really know how we would do our lives if we didn't work together. It's the only time we have together.
BROWN: Together.
BEE: Adult.
BROWN: Because you have two kids too.
BEE: Two children. One on the way.
BROWN: And, obviously, a third on the way.
BEE: So, it's our only chance to really make out or do the things that adults do behind closed doors.
BROWN: Well, enjoy it because your days are numbered.
BEE: Thank you. We're in deep trouble.
BROWN: Those make out days are so over, baby.
BEE: Oh, I know.
BROWN: Well, the book just coming out. It is a very hilarious read.
BEE: Thank you.
BROWN: And it's great to have you here, Samantha Bee.
BEE: It's my pleasure. Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in a few minutes. But, up next, tonight's "Punch Line." Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY FALLON, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH JIMMY FALLON": A new poll found that Hillary Clinton is now more popular than President Obama. Hillary was like, look, I don't pay attention to silly polls like that. What were the numbers exactly?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Finally, time for tonight's "Punch Line." Some fuel for thought.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE COLBERT REPORT": Yesterday, once again, government officials raised their estimates of the amount of oil spewing into the gulf. It's the fifth estimate and this time they say it's up to 60,000 barrels a day. So, check your heartbreaking news from the gulf office pool and if you guessed 60,000 barrels a day, you are tonight's winner.
JAY LENO, HOST, "THE JAY LENO SHOW": President Obama met with that Tony Hayward guy and a couple of other BP executives. The meeting only lasted about 20 minutes or in BP terms, 10,000 barrels of oil.
JIMMY FALLON, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH JIMMY FALLON": Call me crazy but I think it should take more time to discuss an oil spill than it does to get your oiled checked. I think --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You wonder how the meeting begins, Obama saying, well, nice to meet you, Tony. Thanks for wrecking my presidency. You want a water or something?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That's it for us. Have a good night everybody.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
