Return to Transcripts main page
American Morning
BP and Government Fear Seepage Below Capped Oil Well; "Washington Post" Reports U.S. Intelligence Community Too Large And Unwieldy To Be Effective; Mark Williams and Tea Party Express Expelled by National Federation; U.S. Giving $7.5 BP in Aid to Pakistan; Inmates Ripping Off Uncle Sam; Mystery Candidate Draws Crowd; Leaving Afghanistan; Summer Camp for Military Kids
Aired July 19, 2010 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR: Good Monday morning to you. Glad you're with us on this July 19th. Welcome to AMERICAN MORNING. I'm Kiran Chetry.
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you. I'm John Roberts. Thanks so much for joining us today. Lots to talk about. Let's get you right to it.
A possible setback on the sea floor in the Gulf of Mexico. The government is ordering BP to investigate a leak near its damaged well. This is not a leak in a pipe, this is a leak in the seafloor. We're live in New Orleans with new details on what this all could mean for BP's containment cap which remains in place this morning.
Also, what appears to be a major rift in the ranks of the Tea Party movement, the national leadership expelling the Tea Party express and its conservative founder, Mark Williams. This comes after his inflammatory comments about race. We're live in Washington with new developments just ahead.
ROBERTS: You've heard of too big to fail, right? How about too big to succeed? A new two-year-long investigation by "the Washington Post" out just a few hours ago says the post-9/11 intelligence community has grown out of control to the point where no one really knows if it's working anymore.
CHETRY: First though, just when things seemed to be moving forward as it relates to the oil spill, an alarming discovery near the site of the damaged oil well. This is now the fifth day without those sickening images of oil flowing into the gulf, but we're now learning the federal government wants to see BP's plan to reopen the capped well to possibly relieve pressure after engineers detected seepage coming from the seabed underground nearby.
And the development that could be even worse than the leaking containment cap -- this comes at the same time BP announces the total cost to the oil spill disaster now stands at nearly $4 billion. That includes clean-up, relief well drilling, and claims paid.
Our Reynolds Wolf is live in New Orleans this morning. When we talk about this setback, the reports of the seepage, explain what's going on right now.
REYNOLDS WOLF, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Well, when we talk about the seepage itself, the seeping itself is not a bad thing. It is what the seepage could potentially mean that is what is truly troubling about the whole issue.
What's interesting about the seepage, last night both BP and the federal government were very cryptic with the information. We still have no idea where the seepage is taking place, don't know the exact location or how it was detected. We don't even at this point know how it was even found.
The reason why it could be a very interesting or telltale sign, interesting clue, is pretty simple. When we combine that with the information we have in terms of the psi, pounds per square inch exerted of that oil that's coming up from the well and hitting the cap at the bottom, they want to pressure to continue to rise.
It has been rising but it hasn't met the level, the threshold they were hoping to get, to 6,800. It's been less than that. Now it hasn't dropped. If it were to start dropping and you have seepage coupled with that, that could indicate there is a rupture below the seafloor. If you have a rupture that's below the sea floor, that would be very, very difficult to stop and could make this problem much, much bigger.
CHETRY: And so what is the next step?
WOLF: Well, the next step is going to be a very careful one. I can tell you Thad Allen yesterday, the retired coast guard admiral, mentioned to BP in a letter that he wants, if there is any more seepage, he wants an update as soon as possible, at least within four hours.
At the same time he wants to have detailed instructions on how to open the emergency valves on top of the cap itself. And then he also would like a written update within the next 24 hours.
One thing that may happen, if it does appear there is some seepage, they may actually replace the top of the cap with a riser and they would restart the containment efforts of having the riser, having the pipes going up to the surface and the siphoning would resume.
If they were to go to route, the problem is you would have oil possibly flowing back into the Gulf of Mexico from one to three days, something we haven't seen in quite a while. In fact it's been nearly three days, and, again, that's the last thing anyone wants to see is oil coming out of that damaged well head. Back to you in New York.
CHETRY: Of course, a lot of people thought perhaps we were turning the corner on that and just waiting out the relief well being completed. So yet another setback today. Reynolds Wolf, thanks so much.
ROBERTS: An "A.M." security watch now. A system drowning in paperwork, red tape redundancies, and layers and layers of government too big for any person to actually manage.
A new "Washington Post" investigation two years in the making is exposing an intelligence community that's growing out of control this morning. It says the top-secret world the government created in response to the terrorist attacks of September the 11th, 2001, has become so large, so unwieldy, and so secretive that no one knows how much money it costs, how many people it employs, how many programs exist within it, or exactly how many agencies do the same work.
Barbara Starr joins us live from the Pentagon now. Barbara, the bulk of these intelligence agencies are within the Department of Defense. Has it grown too big to succeed?
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: I just spoke to a senior defense department official a few moments ago who said, look, yes, we acknowledge the intelligence community grew very rapidly after the 9/11 attacks. There are some redundancies, there are some inefficiencies.
He said, but remember, the U.S. government thwarted several attempts since 9/11, several potential terrorist attacks, of course as recently as that attempted Christmas day bombing of the Detroit airliner, the actual attack was thwarted by some people on the airliner.
It didn't all work exactly as it should but they say they are making every effort. "The Washington Post" was a two-year investigation in the making. It is quite a piece of journalism. It is phenomenal what they did come up with.
They report, for example, there are 1,200 government organizations involved in intelligence gathering, nearly 2,000 private companies, 2,000 contractors involved, 850,000 people with top-secret clearances.
The article, however, had gotten a lot of people jittery in Washington in the last couple of days in fact because there was concern "the Washington Post" was going to reveal some very specific information. The director of national intelligence had put out a statement saying, quote, "Foreign intelligence services and terrorist organizations and criminal elements will have potential interest in this kind of information."
They had been very concerned the "Post" was going to publish on their Web site specific addresses of the hundreds, if not thousands of locations around the country that house top-secret contractor and intelligence community facilities.
That Web site is now up and running. You can log on and see it, but the specific addresses are not there. So some of the concern about security and targeting of these facilities has been averted.
The bottom line, the government says, you know, that they have worked very hard to avert potential terrorist attacks. They know the intelligence community is growing. They're looking at it. John? ROBERTS: And The "Washington Post" actually acceded to wishes by the intelligence community to take some of the information off of that Web site. Didn't it?
STARR: Absolutely, John. What we now know is that "The Washington Post" had planned to publish those very specific addresses which the U.S. government thought would be an intelligence risk, could have posed problems because it would have given actual street addresses for potential terrorist attacks.
We know there have been at least two letters, two levels of very high communication between the U.S. government and the "Post." U.S. government officials tell us they believe they succeed in convincing the "Post" not to publish that specific information. John?
ROBERTS: Some of the larger facilities like the National Intelligence Center, the CIA, are pretty difficult to miss though. Barbara Starr for us this morning, thanks so much.
STARR: Sure.
CHETRY: Also new this morning, President Obama will give a speech in the White House rose garden later today and the topic will be the economy. Specifically the White House says the president will call on Congress to extend unemployment benefits for millions of Americans still looking for work, something the GOP has blocked three times in the past few weeks.
You can watch the president's Rose Garden speech live, 10:35 a.m. eastern right here on CNN and CNN.com/live.
ROBERTS: This latest push on the economy comes as a new poll from "Politico" shows that the economy is still weighing heavily on people's minds and weighing down their lives. It says close to two- thirds of the country thinks that the economy is still on the wrong track, 61 percent.
CHETRY: The high waters are receding in eastern Kentucky but search teams are still looking for victims after Saturday night's flash floods. At least two people died in Pike County. Authorities also estimate more than 200 homes either damaged or destroyed as a result of that flooding.
(WEATHER BREAK)
CHETRY: We're ten minutes past the hour. Still ahead, kicked out of the party -- the Tea Party federation expels conservative commentator Mark Williams and his group the Tea Party express after some incendiary comments that he wrote on his blog in the form of satire, he says. But will his exit be enough to quiet the claims of racism within the Tea Party movement? We'll take a look, still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHETRY: It's 13 minutes past the hour. The Tea Party movement cutting ties with one of its most visible leaders. Mark Williams and his Tea Party express group have been expelled by the national Tea Party leadership. And at issue is Williams' blog comments on race that were controversial and to many outright racist.
CNN's Jim Acosta is following developments this morning. He's live in Washington. So explain the significance of the Tea Party federation giving the Tea Party express the boot.
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, it's sort of like one of these Tea Party groups getting booted off the bus, you might say, Kiran. All of this started last week when the NAACP condemned the Tea Party movement for some of the racially insensitive signs and language used at some Tea Party rallies.
And that prompted Mark Williams, a leader of the Tea Party express, to write what he thought was a satirical letter from the president of the NAACP to Abraham Lincoln. The letter was filled with racially charged comments. And over the weekend a spokesman for another major Tea Party group, the national Tea Party federation, said they had had enough.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID WEBB, NATIONAL TEA PARTY FEDERATION: We, in the last 24 hours, have expelled Tea Party express and Mark Williams from the national Tea Party federation because of the letter that he wrote, which he, I guess, may have considered satire, but which was clearly offensive.
And that is what we do. Self-policing is the right and the responsibility of any movement or organization.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Now Mark Williams, who's never at a loss for words, said he was finished giving interviews on this controversy, but he did release a statement apparently sort of slamming the national Tea Party federation, reading, "Apparently I have offended the Tea Party leadership.
Mind you, there is no Tea Party leadership. Every tea-partier is a Tea Party leader but something happens when the stronger egos and personalities of a movement begin to feel a sense of ownership. It is not long before they act to claim and defend that feeling. An example of that happened today." That's from Mark Williams.
Still NAACP president Ben Jealous seemed pleased with the actions taken by the national Tea Party federation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN JEALOUS, NAACP PRESIDENT: You can't have people just staring at you, staring at this letter, and be like, golly gee, I don't know if it's offensive, I don't know if it's racist. Clearly, it was racially offensive. Clearly, it was a racist statement. You know, clearly, you can't see into somebody's heart but you can see their words and these words are deeply troubling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: But Mark Williams does have a point about one thing. The Tea Party movement is not a national political party unlike the Democrats and Republicans. The Tea Party does not have a national chair or committee, so it's unclear how much of an effect this move from the National Tea Party Federation will have.
And, Kiran, as you'll remember, those Tea Party Express bus tours all over the country were very popular. At this point, we have not heard what the Tea Party Express has to say about Mr. Williams, whether or not he's still welcome in that organization. But all of this is very important, very critical for the upcoming mid-terms because the Tea Party movement, as you know, is a major force out there this election year.
CHETRY: Yes, it will be interesting to see what the Tea Party express itself says about this latest move. Thanks, Jim.
ACOSTA: You bet.
ROBERTS: Still ahead on the Most News in the Morning, a major tax fraud scam being carried out from behind bars in prisons all across the country. And guess who's paying for it? Good guess. An "A.M. Original" just ahead.
Sixteen minutes after the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Nineteen minutes now after the hour. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is in Pakistan unveiling a $7.5 billion aid package. But the focus here is not on military aid. Instead, these projects target the country's water and power shortages, along with its struggling economy. Washington is trying to win hearts and minds in Pakistan. A key part of the Obama administration's strategy, to turn things around across the border in neighboring Afghanistan. For more now, let's bring in our Reza Sayah. He's live in Islamabad.
This is a bold plan, a little different than the U.S. has pursued before. Any sign that it could potentially work?
REZA SAYAH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think the U.S., the Obama administration, is convinced that this is the right approach. In addition to the military approach, you have to have an economic approach. They say it's an interesting project here. If Mrs. Clinton has her way in the months and years to come, Pakistan will export more of its delicious and very juicy mangoes. Americans will eat them. It will all be a part of the fight against militants.
It's one of the projects among many announced by Mrs. Clinton during a press conference in the federal capital of Islamabad today. And these programs all part of the U.S. effort to win more hearts and minds here in Pakistan by spending lots of U.S. aid money approved by Congress. These programs are designed specifically to meet Pakistan's biggest needs. And that's an energy shortage, water shortage and jobs. The plans include the building of several hospitals, hydroelectric dams, revamping Pakistan's aging power grid, and you have the mango plant, of course. The U.S. hoping that will create jobs. Here's Mrs. Clinton earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, SECRETARY OF STATE: We know that there is a perception held by too many Pakistanis that America's commitment to them begins and ends with security. But in fact our partnership with Pakistan goes far beyond security. It is economic, political, educational, cultural, historical, rooted in family ties. That this misperception has persisted for so long tells us we have not done a good enough job of connecting our partnership with concrete improvements in the lives of Pakistanis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAYAH: Now, remember, the bigger picture here, the ultimate goal is success against militants in this region. It's the Obama administration's position that there will never be success in progress next door in Afghanistan if Pakistan doesn't help, if Pakistan doesn't do more against militants that are hiding here in Pakistan but fueling the insurgency across the border in Afghanistan. It hasn't always been easy for the U.S. to get Pakistan to do more because there's lots of anti-Americanism here. There's a huge trust deficit. John, Mrs. Clinton hoping with these programs she will bridge that trust deficit. So if you like mangoes, look for Pakistani mangoes to come to a fruit stand near you in the months and years to come.
ROBERTS: That would be a good thing, too, because they're quite good. Reza Sayah for us live from Islamabad this morning. Reza, thanks so much.
It is about 20 minutes. By the way, we're going to talk Afghan war strategy with the president of the Council on Foreign Relations. Richard HAASSs will be with us. The headline of his article just published by "Newsweek" magazine reads, "We're not winning, it's not worth it." He'll tell us why coming at 7:40 Eastern -- Kiran.
CHETRY: You want to stick around for that for sure. Also, South Carolina's mysterious candidate for U.S. Senate speaks out. He gave his first speech. Not necessarily the most polished politician, but he was candid and voters are turning out to hear what he has to say. We're going to get more on that ahead.
Twenty-three minutes past the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHETRY: Twenty-five minutes past the hour. Top stories just five minutes away. First though an "A.M. Original," something you'll see only on AMERICAN MORNING. For some convicted criminals, a life of crime doesn't stop behind bars. We found one South Florida prison where half of the inmates were trying to rip off the IRs and collect your tax dollars. And even worse, it was all happening all over the nation and going on for decades unnoticed. John Zarrella is live in Miami with part one of our series "Scammed." So how did they get away with it, John?
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kiran, well, you're not going to believe this. But just last week in Tennessee, a grand jury -- now we're talking Tennessee -- indicted a former inmate for allegedly trying to defraud the United States government. He filed, according to the government, 88 tax returns to the tune of $58 million. It was the exact same scam that we first reported that was being run out of the jail in Key West.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZARRELLA (voice-over): Just a routine search of a jail cell. Officer Mark Lindback didn't expect to find much.
OFFICER MARK LINDBACK, MONROE COUNTY DETENTION CENTER: After the inmates had exit the cell, went over, basically pulled up the mattress. He had some of the items under his mattress. He had additional items underneath the bunk.
ZARRELLA: The items -- tax forms, an address book with social security numbers, birthdates and cheat sheets for filling out returns. That was December of 2006. What Lindback had stumbled upon was a lucrative income tax fraud scheme run by inmates at the Monroe County jail near Key West. Before they were busted, the inmates filed for more than $1 million in tax refunds involving half the jail population.
CAPT. PENNY PHELPS, MONROE COUNTY DETENTION CENTER: But what they would do is go to other inmates and suggest to an inmate, I can get you $4,500 in a tax return. It will cost you $500.
ZARRELLA: In some cases, with the help of friends and family, the prisoners would fill out the 1040EZ short form, then attach a 4852 form with the names of businesses that didn't exist, and income they never earned. The 4852 is a substitute used when an employer doesn't provide a W-2. The additional investigation was handled by county prosecutor, Jon Ellsworth. Phone calls were recorded.
JON ELLSWORTH, COUNTY PROSECUTOR: One of the main guys at one point is telling one of his cohorts that he's not going to do white- collar -- street crime anymore because Uncle Sam's taking good care of him.
ZARRELLA: Before they were caught and the jail started intercepting incoming checks, the inmates collected, Ellsworth says, at least $100,000 from the IRS. One inmate had checks sent to his brother's house.
(on camera): Dozens of checks were going to one address and that didn't raise any red flags with the IRS? ELSWORTH: Apparently not.
ZARRELLA (voice-over): By 2007, Ellsworth turned over boxes of evidence to the IRS. Case closed, right? Not so fast.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they said, well, we're working on it, we're investigating. We can't take your investigation and prosecute from your investigation. We have to do our own investigation.
ZARRELLA: Earlier this year, nearly 3 1/2 years after the scheme was busted, federal indictments were finally brought against a couple of the ring leaders and family members. Why so long? The IRS wouldn't say.
(on camera): Now don't think this inmate get-rich-quick scheme started here at the Monroe County Detention Center. Oh, no. Authorities tell us it's been going on for decades at state and federal prisons all across the country.
PHELPS: One of the inmates that I interviewed said that he had learned of it when he was in a federal prison.
ZARRELLA (voice-over): In a statement, the IRS told CNN that it has programs to combat this. But the IRS said, quote, "It is not a simple process, particularly considering the fact that some inmates are entitled to tax refunds and that the prison population is not static." According to congressional testimony in 2004, more than 4,000 bogus refunds were issued to prisoners for almost $15 million, but the IRS blocked more than $53 million in false claims.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The system has a flaw that needs to be fixed. And it should be easy enough to fix by changing a form or changing the submissions.
ZARRELLA: And while the IRS is now prosecuting the Monroe jail case, guess what some inmates are still doing? Filing fraudulent returns and still getting checks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we have one here that came in that was for about $5,000.
ZARRELLA (on camera): Here it is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's about $5,000.
ZARRELLA: So this is an IRS check --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
ZARRELLA: -- that was sent to that inmate --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
ZARRELLA: -- for $5,920 that was intercepted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly. ZARRELLA (voice-over): At least here the checks end up in the hands of the FBI.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZARRELLA: Now one of the two ring leaders involved has pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy. His mother coincidentally who was also involved in the scam is being sentenced today. The other alleged ringleader's trial is set to start here in South Florida in September. Kiran.
CHETRY: Amazing how they got away with it for so long.
John Zarrella for us this morning, thanks.
Well, we're crossing the half-hour right now. Time for a look at this morning's top stories.
Engineers monitoring BP's newly capped well have detected a substance seeping from the sea floor near the Deepwater Horizon. The government is demanding BP monitor the seabed and prepare to re-open the containment cap to relieve pressure on the well.
ROBERTS: A top-secret intelligence community growing out of control, too big to fit into 22 U.S. capitals or almost three Pentagons. That's what a two-year "Washington Post" investigation into the post-9/11 world has uncovered. The paper says it is almost impossible to figure out how much it is all costing and whether it is even working.
CHETRY: Also, President Obama's economic push continues today. He's going to be speaking from the Rose Garden in a few hours. The White House says the president will call on Congress to extend unemployment benefits for millions of Americans still looking for work. Something the GOP has blocked three times in the past few weeks.
ROBERTS: He's been called a mystery. A mistake. A joke. And a Republican plant. But yesterday South Carolina's accidental Senate candidate, 32-year-old unknown, unemployed, military veteran Alvin Greene took to the stage to try to prove that is he more than a punch line.
Our Jessica Yellin was there, and she joins us live from Columbia, South Carolina this morning. So, how did he do?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know what, John? He was very well received by the audience. Alvin Greene made his first known campaign speech yesterday before the NAACP chapter of his local hometown of Manning, South Carolina.
He told us he wrote the speech himself, hand-written, double- spaced on lined notebook paper.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) YELLIN (voice-over): If there's one person who believes Alvin Greene could be South Carolina's next U.S. senator, it's Alvin Greene.
ALVIN GREENE, SOUTH CAROLINA SENATE CANDIDATE: I'm the best candidate in the United States Senate race here in South Carolina. I am also the best candidate - I am also the best choice for the image award next year.
YELLIN: He does not lack confidence. In his new campaign speech, Greene offered some specifics.
GREENE: Let's pick up with some of the projects that were put on hold after 9/11 such as improving transportation and infrastructure.
YELLIN: Some standard rhetoric.
GREENE: My campaign is about getting South Carolina and America back to work and moving South Carolina and America forward.
YELLIN: And a glimpse of his political philosophy.
GREENE: The punishment should fit the crime. Fairness saves us money. Let's reclaim our country from the terrorists and the communists. I know this guy that some folks got into trouble.
YELLIN: There were a few unusual moments, especially here where Greene seemed to be referring to his own run-in with the law. He faces felony pornography charges.
GREENE: Anyhow, this guy met the criteria of pre-trial intervention but was denied. That same guy - this same guy's trial was scheduled for last week but was put off. Anyway, moving on.
YELLIN: The audience at this NAACP gathering was skeptical at first.
LORETTA BOWERS, ATTENDEE: After I heard about him a few months ago, I was very curious. When I heard that he was going to speak today, I came so I could find out who he is.
YELLIN: But came away largely impressed.
LEE MILLARD, ATTENDEE: I thought he was wonderful.
YELLIN (on camera): Will you vote for him?
MILLARD: Yes.
YELLIN: And think he could beat Jim Demint?
MILLARD: Hopefully.
YELLIN (voice-over): When it was all over, Alvin Greene ducked reporters' questions and snuck his one-person campaign out the back door. (END VIDEOTAPE)
YELLIN: Now, Greene had told CNN that the speech would run 20 minutes. It lasted closer to seven. He has said that he will give interviews and more speeches in the future, but he was not available at any point yesterday. We tried several times to answer our questions. John.
ROBERTS: He seemed to be fairly general on the issues. So what was it that people liked about him and what do you think his chances will be in November?
YELLIN: People in my view liked the fact that he is being criticized so roundly and stood up and spoke and faced the public. There was the introductory speaker really rallied the community saying he is one of our hometown people, and he is being pilloried by the world and let's get behind him.
His chances? It would be a stretch to think that any Democrat in the state could beat Jim Demint right now. But as one person in the audience said, look at Alvin Greene's already done, he surprised the skeptics. This is South Carolina, anything's possible. So you never know.
ROBERTS: Interesting. Jessica Yellin in Columbia this morning. Jessica, thanks so much.
CHETRY: Coming up next, we're going to be hearing about Afghan war strategy. We're going to talk with the president of the Council on Foreign Relations, Richard HAASS. He wrote an article headlined today in the "Newsweek" magazine that reads, "We're not winning, it's not worth it." He's going to tell us why. Still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
CHETRY: Welcome back to the Most News in the Morning. Thirty- nine minutes past the hour right now.
Secretary of state Hillary Clinton is in Pakistan as we speak. She's just unveiled $7.5 billion in development aid aimed at winning some hearts and minds in that country but it's also part of the White House's strategy for turning things around across the border in Afghanistan where Secretary Clinton will be headed later this morning.
While writing for "Newsweek," our next guest argues that America's current strategy in the war-torn nation will not work. Joining me now is Richard HAASS, president of the Council on Foreign Relations. Thanks for joining us this morning.
RICHARD HAASS, PRESIDENT, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Thanks for having me.
CHETRY: We brought you in to talk to you about this article, front page of "Newsweek," cover story about Afghanistan and your take on what's going on there. But first, I want to ask you quickly about Secretary Clinton and the push in some of the - the speech that she gave. She said our interests in Pakistan are not just about security. It is about helping your country and so many other things besides the war in Afghanistan.
HAASS: She's right to say that. Pakistan has more than 100 nuclear weapons. It's host to the world's most dangerous terrorist organizations. It is a population of five or six times that of Afghanistan. It is the second-largest Muslim population country in the world. So she's right. The United States is right to focus on Pakistan.
CHETRY: It still sounds though that it is about security.
HAASS: It is in part about security because of those nuclear weapons, because of the terrorism, the last thing we want is for Pakistan to go from a fragile state, which it is now, to a failed state. So the United States is right to make sure that Pakistan does not unravel.
CHETRY: I want to ask you about your article. You wrote "the war being waged by the U.S. in Afghanistan today is fundamentally different and more ambitious than anything carried out by the Bush administration." And you went on to say that "Afghanistan is very much Barack Obama's war of choice." And you use that language because GOP chairman Michael Steele took a lot of heat for saying that. Explain how it is the president's war of choice.
HAASS: The war in Afghanistan that the Bush administration fought was quite narrow and quite modest. It really was just counter terrorism. They were not getting into say state building or nation building in any big way. The Obama administration came in, they've now tripled U.S. force levels and they are doing something very ambitious.
They want to build a strong Afghanistan state, a large police, a large national military, and not only are they targeting terrorists, of which Leon Panetta, the head of the CIA said there is only between 50 and 100, but they are going after the Taliban. And the Taliban, maybe 30,000, 40,000 of them, they are going after them. And this represents to some extent half the population of Afghanistan. Because the Taliban share the same ethnicity of their Pashtuns as half the population of Afghanistan. So Mr. Obama has essentially made the United States now a central participant in Afghanistan's civil war.
CHETRY: And with this being brought up with the Bush administration and you presented them with a plan when you were counseling them, they had no interest in this.
HAASS: None whatsoever.
CHETRY: Why?
HAASS: Because they thought essentially to get ambitious and Afghanistan was a loser. You began with the Michael Steele comment, essentially history shows that those outsiders who come into Afghanistan, whether they are invited or not, tend not to succeed. Plus the administration basically said Afghanistan has no tradition of a large, strong central government, so rather than try to fight that, let's essentially go with that.
CHETRY: Which was you remarked very different than the strategy taken in Iraq by the Bush administration. But since then, when President Obama took over, Afghanistan was quickly deteriorating -
HAASS: Right.
CHETRY: And part of this campaign rhetoric was, listen, we're in the wrong place right now, we should be focusing and finishing the job in Afghanistan. Did he at that point truly have a choice, or really - were the cards already dealt, that he had to put more troops in there and he had to double down on Afghanistan?
HAASS: He did not have to double down. We could have done in Afghanistan essentially what we're doing in places like Yemen and Somalia. We don't have 100,000 troops in those countries. We got a few special forces there. We can target those terrorists where people who are supporting terrorists with drones, cruise missiles, special forces, essentially a very modest counter terrorism strategy rather than a very ambitious counterinsurgency or state building.
CHETRY: So this sounds like what Vice President Biden was advocating for as well. You talked about some of the options. You laid them out. So number one, you talked about was stay the course, keep doing what we're doing, to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars when the public appetite right now is certainly not for more spending.
HAASS: You're exactly right. It is a sponge for American resources and it is a distraction. We ought to be thinking militarily about what we might have to do in North Korea or Iran where we really do have vital national interests. I don't think Afghanistan's worth it.
CHETRY: You also lay out another unlikely scenario which is to pull out completely. We can't do that.
HAASS: I don't think we should do it. We do have interest there. We do have a counter terrorism interest. We do have a degree of commitment. To simply walk away, the other extreme from staying the course, I think would raise too many questions about America and commitment and how trustworthy we are.
CHETRY: Well, it's interesting because those questions are already there when you watch some of the documentary producing that's been done with Afghanistan. Tribal elders there don't believe, regardless of what the American commanders on the ground tell them, that we're really staying. So they don't know if they can trust us because they think that we're going to leave and the Taliban's going to come kill them.
HAASS: Well, they may have a point. On the other hand if we wanted to stay forever, we're not going to be welcome forever. Let's not kid ourselves. Afghanistan is a strong nationalist tradition. So we're really caught there. Which again is why I think we ought to come up with something that we can stay for a while, but much smaller footprint.
CHETRY: So you talk about partitioning, a new type of partitioning, decentralizing and giving the power to these individual areas. How would that work?
HAASS: I have two big ideas. I'll let others decide whether they're big. One is decentralization. Rather than pouring all of our resources through the central government, instead find local leaders, work with them. Provide arms to them. Essentially if they're going to work with us, if they're going to reject terrorism, OK, then we can work with them and we can probably provide arms, training, economic aid.
Secondly, rather than assume if and when the Taliban come back that they're going to bring back Al Qaeda, I don't. Why don't we talk to the Taliban, why don't we basically say, "look, we know you're going to come back in parts of the country, you have strong connections. If you don't bring back Al Qaeda, if you don't undermine the rest of the country, then we won't attack you. But if you do those things, if you bring back Al Qaeda or try to undermine the rest of Afghanistan or Pakistan, then you will make yourself a target."
Let's give them a choice. And my hunch is at least some of the Taliban will not make the same mistake they made before 9/11 by getting very close to Al Qaeda.
CHETRY: But what happens to women's rights? What happens to a lot of the crackdowns against women being educated and things that happened under the Taliban?
HAASS: Sad to say, in parts of the country it's going to get worse. It's going to get worse regardless. The - there is culture, there is history, there are tradition, and we could say to some of those people is if you violate women's rights badly, you're not going to get any aid from the United States, any - any help.
But I don't think we can ask young American men and women in the - in the army to die for that cause. I think we have to be very careful about how we use the American military instrument and we have to use other tools of foreign policy to try to influence the trajectory of Afghan society.
CHETRY: Well, it's certainly a thought-provoking article, and thanks for coming in to talk about it.
HAASS: Thanks for having me.
CHETRY: Richard Haass, president of the Council of Foreign Relations. Good to talk to you.
We're going to take a quick break. It's now 45 minutes past the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Going to be a hot one across much of the country again today.
Jacqui Jeras is tracking the weather forecast. She's in the Weather Center in Atlanta. And some storms on the way as well for some people.
JACQUI JERAS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Yes. And those storms are going to help a few of you cool down a little bit and keep you out of some of those heat advisories, but they are scattered out there and we are waking up with some really heavy downpours across parts of the Upper Midwest this morning. You could expect to pick up a good quick inch of rainfall and you might have a little bit of flooding on some of the area roadways. So be aware of that.
And you definitely don't want it leave without the umbrella in the northeast. There you could see some thunderstorms just west of New York City, moving through Philadelphia as well. Nothing too strong or heavy right now, but we could see thunderstorms redevelop by mid afternoon, and a few of those could be strong, possibly even severe. So a slight risk in this area today from Boston on southward towards D.C. and a moderate risk of severe weather in the upper Midwest, with large hail and damaging winds. This is because we expect more development of thunderstorms late this afternoon and continuing to hold together throughout the evening.
On the south side, that's where we're going to see all that heat again as high pressure remains in place. We do expect to have some travel delays today, mostly due to the thunderstorms. New York metros, D.C. metros, Atlanta, looking at delays potentially over an hour, and Houston will see a few thunderstorms, 30 to 60 minutes. And Houston will see those temperatures a little cooler today because you do have some of those storms.
Here's where the heat is, across parts of Kansas City, and then also into New York City, just into the five boroughs. Everybody else in the megalopolis is doing OK. But look at Dallas, 98 degrees; 90 in Atlanta. It'll be a little better across the upper Midwest, not too bad, staying in the 70s rather than 80s here.
John and Kiran, back to you.
ROBERTS: Well, that's something (ph). Nice, Jacqui. Thanks so much.
CHETRY: And this morning's top stories just minutes away, including an intel community growing out of control, ballooning after 9/11 to the point where a new report suggests it may not even be effective anymore. We'll have live reaction from the Pentagon.
ROBERTS: Swim, bike, run - the ultimate test of endurance with unbearable heat thrown into the mix. Sanjay Gupta and Team A.M. finally take on the New York City triathlon. Did all of that hard work pay off? CHETRY: Also, it smells like success, how Old Spice is becoming new again with one of the most successful viral ad campaigns ever. How did they figure this one out?
Those stories and much more at the top of the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHETRY: Welcome back to the Most News in the Morning. Time for an "A.M. Original," something you'll only see on AMERICAN MORNING.
Today's story is about helping kids who have moms and dads in the military and are stationed overseas.
ROBERTS: Summer camps across the country are trying to fill the void when a parent is deployed.
Our Jason Carroll spent some time at one of these, here now to share the story. Good morning, Jason.
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Definitely you need for something like this.
You know, the camp we visited has a simple goal - provide a place for children whose parents are deployed. And in doing so, help those children deal with the pain of separation.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL (voice-over): This summer camp in Connecticut looks much like any other camp.
You'll see the children tackling traditional camp activities. But once you speak to them -
BRADLEY VION, BOTH PARENTS IN AIR NATIONAL GUARD: My dad was gone for like 80 days.
CARROLL: -- you realize there's something special about the children here.
BAILEY GRULLON, FATHER IN AIR FORCE: My dad is deploying in a few weeks for Iraq.
CARROLL: Bailey Grullon is 12. Bradley Vion, just 10. They're part of "Camp Operation Purple." Here, every child has a parent in the military who is or will be deployed.
VION: Yes.
CARROLL (on camera): Does that help to have other kids around you like that?
VION: Yes, it does. Because like they know what you're going through like at times when they're gone for a really long time and you're stressed out because they're not in the country.
CARROLL: The National Military Family Association started camps like this back in 2004. They had 12 then. Now they have 68 all over the country.
CARROLL (voice-over): The association says right now 155,000 children have a parent deployed to either Iraq or Afghanistan. Both of Bradley's parents are in the Air Force and have been deployed four times.
CARROLL (on camera): How would you describe what that's like for you when your dad says "I've good to go and get on a plane." "I've got to go."
VION: Well, it's not really with a warning, so it's kind of like you're in shock. So -
CARROLL (voice-over): One study showing children whose parents are deployed are more likely to suffer from anxiety and emotional problems. "Operation Purple" helps in part by surrounding them with other children in the same situation.
Bailey Grullon's father leaves for Iraq in two weeks, his fifth deployment.
GRULLON: And I'm talking to everybody about it, my counselors, some - even little kids. They said, oh, have your parents been deployed? I'm like, yes. And, like, oh, how do you feel? And I go, I'm sad, daddy's going. I'm like, oh, I know how you feel.
CARROLL: Support from the Sierra Club makes this week-long camp possible for children like Bailey and Brandon (sic). But over time, finding funding has gotten harder.
BAILEY BERNIUS, NATIONAL MILITARY FAMILIES OF AMERICA: I mean, we're pretty far along in these wars, and at first, you know, there's - there was a lot of interest and a lot of concern, support. But just because it's been a few years, it doesn't mean that there aren't still families that are dealing with it.
CARROLL: One way that helps these children cope is knowing their parents are doing something honorable.
GRULLON: I guess I'm feeling a little sad, but I guess just kind of proud that he's going because I know that he's going to be doing stuff for our country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL: Well, the camp is one week and it's free. And it's so popular, the National Military Family Association actually has to turn some families away because there's simply not enough space for everyone.
You know, the one thing that struck me about both of those kids, Bradley and Bailey, is the fact that they were so mature. Such maturity at such a young age.
CHETRY: Well, they have to deal with a lot. I mean, you're -
CARROLL: True (ph).
CHETRY: -- talking four to five deployments for their families.
ROBERTS: And dealing - dealing with that and having a pragmatic outlook on it, too. And, of course, being proud of the parent that's going away.
But - but if the camp is so popular and it's running into funding problems, what are the chances it will be able to keep going to the degree that it is?
CARROLL: Well, you know, actually, I asked that. And the Sierra Club was, you know, the Sierra Club obviously helps them out in doing things, but, you know, the need is there. So if anyone out there wants to donate, you can go online and make a donation.
ROBERTS: It's a great thing to donate to. Jason Carroll, great story. Thanks so much for bringing it to us.
CHETRY: Thank you, Jason.
CARROLL: You bet.
ROBERTS: Top stories are coming your way in just a couple of minutes. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
