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Nancy Grace
Friend of Missing Kyron`s Stepmom in the Spotlight
Aired July 27, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight. We go live to rural Oregon and the mystery surrounding the disappearance of little Kyron Horman. Stepmom Terri Horman walks 7-year-old Kyron down the hall of his elementary school, and he`s never seen again. Tonight, reports surface an arrest could come down any moment. So who are police after? This as a grand jury convenes and subpoenas Terri Horman`s close friend, Dede Spicher. Meanwhile, Spicher`s attorney says he`d be surprised if Kyron`s stepmom, Terri Horman, isn`t arrested. We are standing by live in Oregon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New and important details in the case of the missing 7-year-old Oregon boy, Kyron Horman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love you, Kyron.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s still out there. He`s still out there. We just need to find him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The initial reward of $25,000 is being increased to $50,000.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s been a lot of attention on Kyron`s stepmother, Terri Horman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her close friend, Dede Spicher, was subpoenaed by a grand jury investigating Kyron`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My understanding is it`s just to solicit information. We don`t know anything more.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wouldn`t be a bit surprised if she took the 5th Amendment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kyron`s biological parents have suggested Spicher knows something about Kyron`s disappearance...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s waiting to be found. He`s out there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... but she isn`t cooperating with police.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know if Terri is hiding something?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kyron disappeared from Skyline Elementary school on June 4th.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were you with her on June 4th?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "The Oregonian" newspaper reports Spicher was spotted by a witness leaving her gardening job for about 90 minutes the day Kyron disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why won`t you say anything? It`s important. This little boy`s been missing for a long time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: And tonight, live to Kentucky, a 19-year-old missing more than a week, last seen at her grandmother`s home, was reportedly supposed to testify in a criminal trial. Instead, police believe Brittney Kustes might be with the registered sex offender who not only has a very long rap sheet, he actually was charged with kidnapping her a year ago. Tonight, where is 19-year-old Brittney Kustes?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. Law enforcement desperately searching for 19-year-old Brittney Kustes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) no problems for her to take off and leave.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... a man who`s haunted her daughter`s past.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She hated this guy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... a registered sex offender...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We will find you!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... who has not been in compliance, according to the Kentucky sex offender registry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re looking for you every day and night!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This man, 35-year-old Roy Vernon Elwell (ph)...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love you!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Elwell is a person of interest in Brittney`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reports police say Elwell was charged with kidnapping Brittney just about a year earlier.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kustes says Brittney was to testify against Elwell in court next week.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Brittney, if you`re listening or you can see this, we love you!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She fears that may be the reason for her daughter`s disappearance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, filling in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, reports surface an arrest could come down in the Kyron Horman investigation at any moment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since Kyron`s disappearance on June 4th, this investigation has developed into the largest search effort in Oregon`s history.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Never give up hope! We are all coming to get you, to bring you home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never before has there been a combined search and rescue contingent of approximately 500 searchers, involving 18 different counties and several other agencies from other states.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell the world something? Can you please tell the world something?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Law enforcement has been focusing a lot of attention on one of Terri Horman`s friends.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know anything about Kyron?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Spicher refused to give us a comment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives are not talking about Dede Spicher, but her attorney told us today that she was subpoenaed to testify before the grand jury.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us about these allegations?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are a lot of questions that that grand jury can ask that are of extreme interest to the Multnomah County district attorney`s office.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On another front, there`s a brewing battle...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kaine Horman is demanding to know where Terri got the money to pay for her attorney, Stephen House (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just really want her to do the right thing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He suggests she paid House $350,000. If that money came from assets they shared as a married couple, Kaine wants half of it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Well, speaking for myself and millions of others, I was hoping for some big breaking revelation today. James Pitkin, reporter, "Willamette Week" newspaper, we got a news conference. We didn`t get an arrest or we didn`t get a young boy.
JAMES PITKIN, "WILLAMETTE WEEK": That`s right, Pat. Now, law enforcement has said that they`ve spent 11,000 hours combing through 305,000 leads. But apparently, they still don`t have (INAUDIBLE) to close this case. Saturday, they spent several hours searching the premises around Skyline School once again. But apparently, no results. There were helicopters hovering in the air close over a field. A lot of people thought that was hopeful. They were acting on a tip. But still no arrest in the case.
LALAMA: Well, so unfortunate. Ellie Jostad, NANCY GRACE producer, what`s the point of the news conference? What are the highlights?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, the one big thing that came out -- there was some good news that came out of this news conference. They`ve doubled that reward. It`s now up to $50,000, a private donor kicking in the extra $25,000. So there is a substantial award now for Kyron`s -- that would lead to -- information that would lead to Kyron.
However, police refuse to comment on any of these reports that there`s going to be an arrest. We`ve also heard that a grand jury is convened. They wouldn`t talk about any of that. They went over some tips that they`ve gotten. They only spoke about polygraphs in the most general terms. They said that they are an investigative tool that they are using in this case.
LALAMA: All right, C.W. Jensen, retired Portland police captain, we know a grand jury is a significant step. Why did they move to that level of investigative procedure?
C.W. JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Well, it isn`t illegal to lie to cops, so if I go and talk to you and ask you questions, you can be untruthful to me and that really doesn`t get you in a lot of trouble. If you`re subpoenaed to a grand jury and you swear under oath and you lie, then you can be accused of perjury and go to jail.
LALAMA: Susan Moss, family law attorney, the grand jury is significant to me. It`s secret. There are more powerful resources. Is this a signal -- does it signal anything to you about where they might be with this case, or does it mean they`re at a dead end and they really need the power of a grand jury to try to open things up?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Well, firstly, it`s going to be very helpful because they can get some very needed discovery. But she asked the landscaper to join her in a murder caper! That alone should be cause to have a grand jury to try to get an indictment, to try to get her behind jail, behind bars! And then we can put some more pressure on her so that maybe she`ll help us, help us find out what happened to this poor little boy!
LALAMA: Well, now that you`ve mentioned that murder for hire business, let`s go back and revisit some of this, for those just trying to get up to speed on this case. James Pitkin, this is a woman who`s being looked at -- we`re talking about Terri, of course, Horman -- being looked at regarding allegations she might have tried to kill her husband. And even though she`s not a suspect, there are a lot of curious aspects as to where she was the day little Kyron went missing. So what do you think this grand jury is looking at, one or both?
PITKIN: They`re going to be asking her, I think, questions definitely about where Terri was that day, whether her reports of her movements that day match up with actuality as far as video recordings in stores or cell phone records. They`re also going to be wondering about the circumstances around her divorce. Kaine Horman alleged in those divorce filings that she tried to take out a hit on him. That`s a very serious allegation, of course. It could play into a possible motive for anything that may have happened to Kyron.
LALAMA: Ray Giudice, defense attorney, just a gardener saying, Hey, she wanted me to kill her husband -- that`s not enough, right?
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I do agree with Sue that I think the thrust of this special grand jury is not necessarily to find Kyron. That`s what they would hope to do, but I think the thrust is to get testimony under oath, as C.W. said, to prosecute the murder for hire case, which would allow pressure to be applied to both Terri but to anybody else that may be an accomplice. And that`s the key. Get him under oath. You have the power of contempt or force Terri to take the 5th Amendment.
LALAMA: Linda Lee, defense attorney, what are you going to do with a client like Terri at this point? Keep her quiet? Keep her out of the way?
LINDA LEE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Exactly. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil. In this case, I would definitely have Terri be quiet. Anything she says is going to definitely be again her, and quite honestly, her friend. Dede needs to be quiet, as well. I mean, she can also face charges if she has any involvement. So I say mum`s the word. I`d keep them both very quiet.
LALAMA: Ellie Jostad, back to you. Dede Spicher an important person, apparently, in this matter. Give us the lowdown.
JOSTAD: Right. Right. Well, Dede Spicher is a very close friend of Terri Horman, allegedly. And the key date is June 4. Apparently, the people that she was doing gardening work for say that Dede Spicher abruptly left at 11:30. This is on the day Kyron went missing. And she didn`t return until about 90 minutes later.
Now, these people that she was working with say that they were trying to call her repeatedly on her cell phone and they weren`t able to get in touch with her. So the question is, where was she exactly the day that Kyron went missing?
LALAMA: James Pitkin, is Dede trying to muck up the works for cops? I`m hearing rooms she`s telling people, Don`t cooperate. She`s impeding -- allegedly impeding an investigation.
PITKIN: That`s what Kyron`s parents alleged last week. However, her lawyer refuted that this week, said that she spend three-and-a-half hours with investigators last week, that she cooperated fully with the searches of her house, and now of course, she`s appeared before a grand jury. So it seems that if that is true, she`s changed her tune after they put pressure on her last week.
LALAMA: Susan Moss, if she is with holding information or trying to tamper with other people who have information, that`s a serious offense, is it not?
MOSS: If she`s trying to tamper with witnesses, that`s a big problem. But nothing would be nicer than to speak to Spicher. She`s got to know something! There is some reason why, when a woman knows that there`s a child is missing, she doesn`t stand on the street corner and shout as loud and possible everything that she knows! We are losing valuable time, and if this woman -- if this adult would stand up and do the adult thing and say, Look, I don`t care about my friend, I want to help a child, we`d be in a lot different situation!
LALAMA: Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, just an observation I made watching video of this Dede Spicher. It`s almost like she`s sort of smugly enjoying her 15 minutes of fame. Am I reading too much into that kind of attitude I see in her?
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, that might be a component in it, Pat. It`s hard to read when people have sunglasses on and are silent. But I wouldn`t be surprised if she`s enjoying her 15 minutes of fame.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When Kyron was in the school that morning, it was actually a science fair that was going on prior to classes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kyron never made it to class after his school science fair on June 4th.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No suspect`s been named in the case, but there`s been a lot of attention and speculation revolving around Kyron stepmother, Terri Horman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A close friend, Dede Spicher, was subpoenaed to meet with the grand jury investigating Kyron`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From that particular point, he did not show up to his first class.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kyron`s biological parents have suggested Spicher knows something about Kyron`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just have this overwhelming feeling of -- sorry! I feel guilt for not being there to protect him!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) he was like, Howie (ph), I`m going to go see this cool one, electric one. I`m, like, All right, bye. And that`s the last time I saw him. He never did make it back to class.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kyron was last seen on June 4th at his elementary school, going down the hallway to a science fair.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s now a criminal investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This will not become a cold case for us. We will continue to investigate this case until we have it solved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, sitting in for Nancy Grace. Ellie Jostad, for the viewers and for all of us, explain why little Kyron did not live with his biological mother.
JOSTAD: Right. Well, apparently, he lived with his mother for the first two years of his life, but then his mother, Desiree Young, had a very serious health issue. She had kidney failure. She had to travel to Canada to be treated. So she temporarily allowed Kaine Horman, Kyron`s father, to have custody of him, I guess planning to get custody back once she was well. But after her treatments, she decided he was better with his father, things were going well. So that`s why he was living with his father and his stepmother.
LALAMA: But Ellie, were there -- was there some talk that the little guy had made mention he wanted to go live with Mommy again?
JOSTAD: Right. Right. Well, Desiree Young, Kyron`s mother, says now, looking back, she did see some red flags. She said in the past few months, Kyron had mentioned that he wanted to stay with them, at their home, not go back to Portland with his -- to live with his father and his stepmother. She said a couple of times, he even burst into tears, was inconsolable that he had to leave his mother`s home.
LALAMA: Oh, Lord! James Pitkin, reporter, "Willamette Week" newspaper, what`s this about Terri having $350,000 with which to pay a defense attorney?
PITKIN: Right. This is part of the divorce case now. Kaine Horman alleges in court filings that she paid a retainer of $350,000 to her lawyer, Stephen House. He`s wondering where she got that money, and if it was a loan, whether he should have half of it because they have mutual obligations as a married couple.
LALAMA: Linda Lee and Ray Giudice -- I`ll go to Linda first. I`ll ask you both. Can anybody just go walk in the door and look at your paperwork and your files and find out where that money came from? There are ethics that have to be followed in terms of receiving payment, am I right, Linda?
LEE: That`s correct. There are ethics that are involved with receiving payment. But I don`t believe they`d be able to go into that -- into that unless it`s through the family law case. Through the family law case, if that is, in fact, marital property that she used that money for, and if it`s marital funds, then, yes, then the court would be entitled to that.
LALAMA: But Ray, isn`t it a little odd that the dad`s going, Where did she come up with that kind of money?
GIUDICE: Well, that`s true, but the relationship between her and her lawyer, even the financial aspect of it, is covered by attorney-client privilege. And short of a contemptuous subpoena -- a subpoena that would hold me in contempt, I`m never going to disclose the source of my funding. But as was just pointed out, if that money comes from marital property or if it is now a debt of the marriage, the domestic court, the court handling the divorce, has a right to know that.
LALAMA: If Terri Horman did have anything to do with the disappearance of this child -- Dr. Gwenn O`Keefe, pediatrician, founder and CEO, Pedatricsnow.org, there was some talk that she suffered post-partum syndrome. Tell us a little bit about that. How does that play into this, if, in fact, it was true.
DR. GWENN O`KEEFE, PEDIATRICIAN: Well, if Kyron`s been around a very depressed individual, that would be a very challenging environment for him and could explain some of his desire to get out of that environment. It would also explain some of her behavior, as well.
LALAMA: In what way, Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist?
SAUNDERS: Well, there`s a spectrum of post-partum reactions. There`s a kind of normal post-partum blues, "baby blues," which is transient. post-partum depression is pretty serious. It looks like major depressive illness. if somebody has an underlying personality disorder, like an anti- social personality disorder, the depression kind of puts pressure on that fault line in the personality, and that behavior`s going to show up.
LALAMA: Interesting.
Nancy Grace`s brand-new book, "Death on the D-List," is going to be out on August 10th. To preorder your copy, go to CNN.com/nancygrace and click on Nancy`s new book. Hurry. Do it now. Order your copy of "Death on the D-List." It`s going to be another great one, I`m sure, probably on "The New York Times" best-seller list. Proceeds go to Wesley Glenn to give a loving home to the mentally handicapped (INAUDIBLE) Congratulations, Nancy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Terri, do you know where Kyron is? Can you tell the world something? Can you please tell the world something?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s been a lot of attention on Kyron`s stepmother, Terri Horman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Completely unacceptable.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) not telling the truth. I know she`s involved.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her close friend, Dede Spicher...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why won`t you say anything? It`s important. This little boy`s been missing for a long time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kyron`s biological parents have suggested that Spicher knows something about the child`s disappearance and is not cooperating with police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know where Kyron is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s extremely frustrating that she is not cooperating.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Terri, do you have anything to say?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s not taking an active role in finding Kyron.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, sitting in for Nancy Grace. Susan Moss, family law, attorney, child advocate, I got a little slime factor in part of this story. Apparently, Terri Horman allegedly is a sext-aholic. There`s some restraining order against her and she apparently violated it by sharing documents with her ex-`s high school buddy, whom she`s having an affair with. What`s it say to you?
MOSS: She`s having an affair and her stepson is God knows where! I mean, that alone speaks miles (ph)! I don`t believe in this case this is a case of post-partum depression! She was having sex -- she was sending sex messages and she was making propositions to the landscaper and who knows who else! This woman is a very sick and very disturbed woman! I think she was sick and disturbed well before she had this child, and that is going to be the key to finding (ph) this case!
LALAMA: But Linda Lee, I`m trying to find a motive here. She`s got a new baby with this man. She apparently has had a decent relationship with Kyron. What, all of a sudden, she wants to punish him for something? Now that we`re finding all these oddities about her sexuality and all that stuff, it`s starting to make me wonder. Was maybe their relationship on the rocks and she wanted to get back at him for something?
LEE: Well...
LALAMA: If she`s responsible.
LEE: Well, I think the reality here is that there are two different issues. The fact that she had an extramarital affair is not related to the fact that he is missing. Those are two different things. And if I were attorney...
LALAMA: Oh!
LEE: ... I would argue they could be two separately different things. And you may disagree, but let me tell you this. The reality is, is that just because someone wants to step out on their husband doesn`t mean that they`re -- want to -- want -- that that is evidence that she had anything to do with the child. Now, I think there are other things that point...
LALAMA: I would expect you to say that as a defense attorney. Definitely.
LEE: Exactly.
LALAMA: Well, you know, C.W. Jensen, retired Portland police captain, why were 30 investigators back at the school? What does that say? Were they acting on a tip, or they`re just feeling that they want to leave no stone unturned? They were just back there. Why? Quickly.
JENSEN: Yes, you don`t do anything unless you have a reason. So clearly, they had a reason to do that. They did it. Nothing turned up. And we probably will see that again as the weeks go on.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAINE HORMAN, FATHER OF MISSING 7-YR-OLD BOY, KYRON HORMAN: He`s still out there.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A little boy is missing.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Missing Oregon boy Kyron Horman.
HORMAN: He`s still out there. We just need to find him.
DESIREE YOUNG, MOTHER OF MISSING 7-YR-OLD BOY, KYRON HORMAN: We love you, Kyron.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stepmom Terri Horman --
YOUNG: I`ve known her a long time. I know she`s lying.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Terri Horman`s friend Dede Spicher, the woman the Hormans say refuses to cooperate with the search for their son Kyron.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Can you tell us anything about these allegations?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Ordered by a subpoena to the Multnomah County courthouse to appear before a grand jury.
YOUNG: Never give up hope. We`re all coming to get you to bring you home.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Spicher was spotted by a witness leaving her gardening job for about 90 minutes on June 4th, the day Kyron disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you know if Terri is hiding something? Were you with her on June 4th?
HORMAN: We`re just trying to do everything we can to find him. He`s waiting to be found. He`s out there.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Pat Lalama sitting in for Nancy Grace.
Dr. Gwen O`Keefe, pediatrician, founder and CEO of Pediatricsnow.org. I`m hoping for the best. I just want to believe this adorable little man is alive. He looks so happy. He`s so involved. Science fair, singing with the choir -- the school choir.
What about survival instincts for children? If he is alive, is there something to kicks in for a child to get through something so traumatic?
DR. GWENN O`KEEFE, M.D., PEDIATRICIAN, FOUNDER & CEO, PEDIATRICSNOW.COM: You know, even a 7-year-old will have survival instincts. If he`s alive and being kept somewhere he will want to see his parents and try to get to them.
So at some point he`ll start asking questions, try to look around, and find a way out. That fright or flight instinct is very strong in kids. He`ll be on the alert and try to find a way to get to safety.
LALAMA: I hope so. Ellie Jostad --
O`KEEFE: Yes, they`re cunning.
LALAMA: We know all about the -- the lie detector history of this case. Give it to us.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Well, you know, we just got some new information. Kyron`s mother and her husband, Kyron`s stepfather, said that this is when they first became -- they told NBC that they first became suspicious or they saw a red flag when the whole family - - this would be Kyron`s dad, his stepmom Terri Horman, Kyron`s mom, Desiree Young, and her husband Tony Young -- all four of them, asked to take lie detector tests.
Now Tony Young, that`s kyron`s stepdad. He said and -- he`s a cop by the way. He thought something was odd when Terri Horman was the only one who was asked to take a second polygraph. He knew that that meant something about what she was telling me was not jelling with investigators.
LALAMA: Do we have any idea? Has anyone leaked the results of those tests?
JOSTAD: No. I mean there are reports out there, and these are unconfirmed by us, that she did not pass those lie detectors tests. But again cops aren`t saying. And she certainly hasn`t commented publicly on it.
LALAMA: CW Jensen, retired Portland police captain. What is the significance of her -- I know, a rhetorical question, right? Her being called back a second time.
CW JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Here`s the deal. I gave a lot of people polygraph tests when I was a homicide detective. I never ever had someone take a second polygraph test if they passed the first one. So clearly she tubed both those tests.
LALAMA: Ray Giudice and Linda Lee. Ray, first, do you agree with that?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t. I never gave a polygraph but I sat through a lot of them. I mean it can also be inconclusive results for a lot of reasons, medical reasons and other reasons.
Secondly, if she`s failed two polygraphs, we have all the other evidence we`ve heard about tonight, allusions to, how come there`s not an arrest?
I think that today`s grand jury process and this non-announcement by the district attorney or the police department -- just a summary of what they`ve been doing -- shows that they don`t have a case and they`re trying desperately to make something happen.
LALAMA: Linda Lee, maybe they`re just trying to keep people updated without playing their hand, revealing their hand.
LINDA LEE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And that is definitely a tactic used by prosecutors. I used to be a prosecutor. Generally speaking when they go in with the grand jury, the reason they`re doing that is because they don`t have probable cause for an arrest. They don`t have enough evidence.
So they do the grand jury method so that they can get some evidence here. With the hopes that what you do in the dark will soon come to light. And that`s what they`re hoping here, and I think that if they`re going to use Dede Spicher to get to that point, they may have trouble if she`s involved with this, because she`s probably going to plead to the Fifth Amendment, her right not to incriminate herself.
And I would -- I would advise her to do so. She has the right to remain silent. I`d ask her to use it.
LALAMA: I want to go to our callers waiting so patiently as usual. First Leighann in California.
Hi, Leighann, what`s your question?
LEIGHANN, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Pat. Thank you for taking my call this evening. I appreciate it.
LALAMA: Sure. No problem.
LEIGHANN: I was wondering with Dede Spicher, was she seen on or around the school grounds the morning that Kyron disappeared? And my second question, was the cell phone pings that we know this was -- the stepmother was maybe that`s where she was calling Dede to meet her at this later time in the morning?
LALAMA: OK. First of all, James Pitkin, reporter -- well, let me say this right -- "Willamette Week" newspaper. Willamette. What do we know about Dede Spicher anywhere near the school? I haven`t heard anything. Have you?
JAMES PITKIN, REPORTER, WILLAMETTE WEEK NEWSPAPER: That`s not known whether she was at the school that morning or not. Now the gardening job that she allegedly left that morning is in the same general quadrant of the city. It`s possible she could have been in the vicinity but we just don`t know.
LALAMA: Ellie Jostad, what about cell phone records?
JOSTAD: Right. Well, that`s another thing that apparently has raised some questions about Terry Horman. Now she says that she dropped Kyron off at school. She leaves. Later we know she went to the gym. She was home by 1:20 and posting photos on Facebook actually.
But the problem is that time in between. Apparently she said that she was driving around with her 19-month-old Kiara because the little girl had an earache. But police haven`t been able to figure out exactly where she was.
They put out a picture of her truck. They asked anybody who saw to come forward. They`ve subpoenaed tapes from the stores she claimed she was at. And apparently her cell phone records do not place her in that area she claims to have been.
LALAMA: Interesting. Let`s take another caller. Let`s go to Sally in Michigan. Sally?
SALLY, CALLER FROM MICHIGAN: Hello. Thanks for taking my call, Pat.
LALAMA: Sure.
SALLY: I have a couple of questions. First I would like to tell the parents there are millions of us that are praying and thinking about you all the time for your son. I do not feel in my heart that Kyron has left us.
But I want to know if this other woman had -- did she have access to the school as far as being able to sign this child out or did they think she snuck in? And (INAUDIBLE) or have they checked her phone records or is there any way she can be, you know, followed or whatever?
This whole thing just stinks to -- you know?
LALAMA: You`re talking about her friend Dede Spicher, correct?
SALLY: Yes. Yes. I do not believe anything that she said.
LALAMA: CW Jensen, retired Portland police captain. She doesn`t seem like she had any special access. She wasn`t allowed to go into the school or pick up or drop off Kyron that we know of.
JENSEN: Well, there`s one thing about Dede and Terri Horman that day. I mean I don`t believe in coincidences and so you have Terri Horman who is unaccounted for for several hours and then you have one of her best friends that`s unaccounted for for an hour and a half hour or so.
And believe me, the police are tracking that out because they`ve served a search warrant at their house. I`m sure they have all of her phone records and I`m sure they took her computer.
LALAMA: Important to note that Dede Spicher is not considered a suspect at this time. But James Pitkin, they brought her in to the grand jury but they didn`t ask her any questions? Is that true?
PITKIN: They brought her into the grand jury. She did testify before the grand jury. Those deliberations are going to remain secret but as far as we know she testified at the grand jury.
LALAMA: I thought I had heard somewhere she didn`t.
Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, what would motivate a stepmom to do any harm to a stepchild?
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Hatred for the father. The fact that she reportedly hired a hit-man to kill her husband says this is a woman who`s callous, without a conscience, and it wouldn`t be too far a call for her to murder a child.
LALAMA: Susan Moss, family law attorney and child advocate. You keep reading reports that while they`ve got probable cause to arrest her but that in a nickel doesn`t get you a conviction or a strong case.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: Yes, but Terri knows that something is going down. She gave $350,000 as a retainer to her attorney. That is not for a no-asset divorce case.
That`s a retainer of someone who thinks they`re going to have a long extended criminal trial and possibly an appeal after that after she loses.
LALAMA: Yes. But where do you get that money? That`s just weighing on my brain.
All right. Nancy Grace`s brand new book, "Death on the D-List" is going to be out on August 10th. To preorder your copy go to CNN.com/Nancygrace and click on Nancy`s new book. Do it now.
Order your copy of "Death on the D-List." It should be another "New York Times" best seller. Of course proceeds go to Wesley Glenn to give a loving home to the mentally handicapped who need one.
Congratulations to you, Nance.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURIE KUSTES, MOTHER OF MISSING TEEN GIRL: Tomorrow will be an entire week.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Still missing.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Brittney Kustes breaking news.
KUSTES: Brittney, if you`re listening or you can see this, we love you.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Nineteen-year-old Brittney`s whereabouts still unknown.
KUSTES: No phone call.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Last seen --
KUSTES: No text.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Last seen swimming at her grandparents` pool.
KUSTES: Not a letter in the mail. Not anything.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The twist, 35-year-old Roy Vernon Elwell.
KUSTES: She hated this guy.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A person of interest in this case.
KUSTES: This guy had came in to my daughter`s life involving drugs.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A registered sex offender.
KUSTES: No, there was no problems for her to take off and leave.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Haunted her daughter`s past.
KUSTES: We`re looking for you every day and night.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Brittney was to testify against Elwell in court next week.
KUSTES: We will find you.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Roy Vernon Elwell does have a prior kidnapping.
KUSTES: I love you.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama sitting in for Nancy Grace.
Clark Goldband, NANCY GRACE producer, the latest, please.
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Nineteen-year- old Brittney Kustes was in a pool with a friend. They were swimming one moment. The next moment, according to that friend`s account, she was gone.
Law enforcement on the search for 34-year-old Roy Vernon Elwell. Pat, he is a registered sex offender, law enforcement has described him as, quote, "a very bad dude", and they believe that Brittney is in danger.
LALAMA: Scotty McGaha, lieutenant detective, Bullitt County Sheriff`s Department. I hope I pronounced your name correctly.
With this guy, Elwell, referred to as the really bad dude, he`s got truly the arm`s length rap sheet, does he not?
SCOTTY MCGAHA, LIEUTENANT DETECTIVE, BULLITT COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: That`s correct. He -- he has an extensive record that dates back to 1995, and that being everything from robbery, kidnapping, assault, stalking.
He has a pending charge in court tomorrow in Louisville, Kentucky. And that charge is for attempt to manufacture methamphetamine. So he does have an extensive criminal record. He is a bad person.
LALAMA: All right now, Nicole Partin, investigative reporter, apparently the day that Brittney went missing, he was seen driving up and down her street in the neighborhood? True?
NICOLE PARTIN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Yes. Good evening, Pat. According to a witness, Brittney was in a swimming pool or at her grandmother`s friend and a witness said that Roy Vernon Elwell drove up and down the street a couple of times looking for Brittney, and the next thing the witness knew Brittney was gone with Elwell.
LALAMA: Laurie Kustes, mother of Brittney Kustes, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us tonight. I`m so sorry for what has happened. Anything we can do to help. That`s why we`re here.
Give us a little bit of history with this guy. How did he come into your daughter`s life and when did that happen first?
KUSTES: Well, it happened over a year ago. She got in with the wrong crowd of people. We found her with him. The police found her with him back then and when we got her back, she was addicted to meth.
LALAMA: Wow, that`s such a shame because, CW Jensen, retired Portland police captain, five years I spent with "Americans Most Wanted" traveling the country and cops in every jurisdiction would say to me, please do something about the methamphetamine epidemic. An insidious drug, just robs the soul out of you, correct?
JENSEN: It`s an awful drug. You know, it`s not good to be addicted to any drug, but I mean meth just tears people apart, wrecks their teeth, wrecks their lives, wrecks their brain. And that`s terrible. But, you know the bigger issue is that this guy is a predatory animal and I hope everybody pays attention to what he looks at and looks for him and this girl.
LALAMA: But Dr. Gwenn O`Keefe, pediatrician and founder and CEO of Pediatricsnow.org. I think what I`m saying is that apparently she had kicked the habit but that`s not something you walk away from so easily, methamphetamine, correct?
O`KEEFE: No, absolutely not. Once you`re hooked to meth, you can get back on it just -- almost by being in the same room with it. So this is a very high risk situation for this gal. And the clock is really ticking. We have to find her fast.
LALAMA: Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. It would be so easy for a guy like this to lure her back into the web, correct?
SAUNDERS: Absolutely correct. This -- methamphetamine is one of the most dangerous drugs in terms of wrecking the brain.
LALAMA: Right.
SAUNDERS: And the lure is almost irresistible.
LALAMA: Laurie Kustes, back to you. Tell us about the kidnapping. What were those circumstances and was she set to testify against him?
KUSTES: She was supposed to testify against him. I`m not sure what case this was about. I believe it was about the drug charges.
LALAMA: Clark Goldband, what can you tell us about this kidnapping? Did it actually occur? Was she under his duress, under his powers for a few days?
GOLDBAND: Pat, according to press reports there is a kidnapping charge pending against this guy. That`s the only information we have at this time. But I can tell you there have been multiple alleged sightings, Pat, and law enforcement asking for help this evening.
One sighting according to a female witness saying she saw this girl with scratches on her face and bruises. She inquired if there was anything she can do to help her and a male yelled, she`s fine, and drove away.
Law enforcement on the hunt for a gold car, possibly a Toyota, with a right passenger hubcap not there.
LALAMA: Ray Giudice, this is not a pretty picture. And this guy, at the very least, has violated probation, a registered sex offender. What`s his future when they finally get him?
GIUDICE: Well, he also has a problem that if she`s involved in a prior case as a victim, then his bond conditions would have a no-contact with her and this could be a witness tampering charge.
So kidnapping, false imprisonment. The charges are replete with his prior criminal history, he could be looking at a lot of years. But you know what? He was looking at a lot of years on the prior cases and he`s out.
LALAMA: Nicole Partin, investigative reporter, has he been harassing her? Has he been in and out of her life? Was he a boyfriend? What`s the story?
PARTIN: Well, the family claims that Brittney and Elwell were acquaintances. And that`s how they state -- that the two knew each other. We don`t have a lot of information as pertaining to did they communicate? Were they talking? Were they seeing one another?
But we do have this eyewitness at the pool, the grandmother`s home the day that Brittney went missing, saying that it was indeed Elwell driving up and down the street looking for Brittney and then moments later Brittney disappeared.
LALAMA: Laurie, tell us about the last time you spoke to your daughter and her wellbeing at that time.
KUSTES: She was happy. We were going shopping that weekend to buy her stuff for her car. She wanted some floor mats and, you know, things like that and that nature. She had been working. Got her a job. Was saving money to fix her car up, was happy. Spending a lot of time with her family and friends.
LALAMA: But, Linda Lee, defense attorney, it sounds like somehow she was under this guy`s spell.
LEE: Well, I think that the drug addiction is possibly a factor here. That can be something that he did use to lure her in. And it really goes to the issue of whether or not she went willingly or not.
This may not be a kidnapping at all. Of course, what the witness just said about seeing her with bruises tends to lead to the point that perhaps it was a kidnapping, but if drugs are involved, and something as powerful as meth, there is no telling whether or not at this stage whether or not it was an actual kidnapping or if she went with him voluntarily.
LALAMA: Scotty McGaha, any information in that regard? Do you believe she might have just thought, OK, yes, I`ll go hang out with him a little while longer or he may have abducted her?
MCGAHA: I don`t have personal knowledge, you know, as far as her being taken unwillingly. But I know this. That a person that had seen her, that came to her residence, said she was -- appeared to be starving, she was hungry.
She also -- he had her cell phone. He wouldn`t let her go in the bathroom without her being -- with him being there. So we`re looking at that as she`s there against her will at this time.
LALAMA: Wow. Interesting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: According to Brittney`s family, their daughter has had former interaction with the man the Bullitt County Sheriff`s deputies consider a person of interest in this case.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Thirty-four-year-old Roy Vernon Elwell, a sex offender with a lengthy criminal history.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: According to the Kentucky sex offender registry, prior kidnapping and unlawful containment conviction on his record.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Law enforcement searching for 19-year-old Brittney Kustes.
KUSTES: We will find you. We will find you.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Clark Goldband, NANCY GRACE producer, doesn`t seem like they`re destined to go far. Doesn`t he have a little support system right in the area?
GOLDBAND: Well, Pat, that`s what law enforcement is saying. In fact, multiple sightings, but they`re all right in that immediate area of Kentucky.
Also, Pat, quite concerning to law enforcement is the fact that the only thing that she has with her is her cell phone and whenever anyone tries to call that cell phone, it goes dead.
LALAMA: Nicole Partin, apparently that`s all she took, cell phone? Nothing else.
PARTIN: No, that`s it. Her car was found at the grandmother`s home, all of her belongings, her makeup, everything was left except the cell phone. And again, there`s no trace, there`s no text return, there`s no phone calls returned, nothing. It`s a dead end.
LALAMA: Laure Kustes, mother of Brittney, why no call to cops for a couple of days?
KUSTES: I`m sorry?
LALAMA: Why wasn`t police alerted sooner?
KUSTES: Well, she`s 19 years old, and we had to wait so many days to make the report.
LALAMA: Anything you can tell us very quickly about your daughter that might help us find her?
KUSTES: She has a red star tattoo on her left foot. She has a butterfly pink tattoo on her rib cage. It`s pink butterfly tattoo. And then she`s got some pink lilies on her left-hand leg.
LALAMA: Laurie, we ache for you and we hope for the best.
Tonight let`s stop to remember Army Specialist David Brangman, 20 years old of Lakewood, Florida, killed in Iraq. He was awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart and Good Conduct medal.
He loved to draw and dreamed of being an architect. He also loved playing video games. Leaves behind his mother Inez, sister Olivia.
David Brangman, American hero.
Thank you to all of our guests and to you at home for being with us.
Please remember Nancy Grace`s brand new book. It`s called "Death on the D-List." It`s going to be out August 10th. You can preorder. Go straight to CNN.com/Nancygrace.
Proceeds go to Wesley Glenn to give a loving home to the mentally handicapped who need one.
We`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. Until then, everyone, have a great night and thanks a lot, Nancy, for the opportunity. Good night.
END
