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Joy Behar Page
Letting Men Cheat?; Pet Hoarders; Interview With Anne Rice
Aired August 04, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Anne Rice is here tonight. You know, I just finished reading "Interview with a Vampire" and I feel like such an idiot. All this time I thought it was about Larry King interviewing Dick Cheney. Who knew?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up, could the secret to stopping cheating be cheating. Holly Hill explains to Joy why she thinks negotiating an infidelity agreement is the key to a lasting relationship.
And it may have been a rocky year for Sandra Bullock personally, but at least she can fall back on the millions she raked in. Sandra`s professional triumph as Hollywood`s highest paid leading lady.
Plus you`ve heard of hoarders; now meet pet hoarders who have dozens, even hundreds of animals in their home. Joy speaks to people featured on a bizarre new "Animal Planet" show.
That and more, starting right now.
BEHAR: Men like to cheat on their taxes, on their golf scores, on their wives. And most cheating husbands eventually become ex-husbands. But what if allowing your man to stray could save a relationship instead of destroy it?
Enter the concept of negotiated infidelity. Basically it`s cheating with rules. Here to discuss the controversial topic are Stephen A. Smith, nationally syndicated Fox Sports radio host; Noel Biderman, founder and president of ashleymadison.com a Web site that encourages extra marital affairs; and Diana Falzone, relationship expert; and by phone from Australia, Holly Hill, author of "Sugarbabe" and the woman behind this theory.
Holly, you`re on the phone, let me start with you. This is your idea, negotiated infidelity. Now most relationships are based on monogamy. You recommend the opposite, why do you do that?
HOLLY HILL, AUTHOR, "SUGARBABE" (via telephone): Well, negotiated infidelity is about accepting the biology of men and women and using it to work for your relationship rather than against your relationship. I have a little saying, bashing your head against brick walls becomes self- mutilation after a while and that`s really what`s happened to our marriages over the last couple of hundred years, because we have a 50 percent divorce rate.
What this is about is changing the recipe. And it`s about -- really to use an analogy -- walking the dog on a leash rather than letting it escape through a hole in the back fence. And it`s about women taking control of their men`s sexual urges and if a woman needs to cross her legs for any reason, she provides alternatives to her partner so that he isn`t inclined to go out and cheat on her.
And this way, the woman maintains control. And he`s happy and we don`t have a 50 percent divorce rate any more.
BEHAR: I see. It sounds like such a simple theory and yet -- and yet --
DIANA FALZONE, RELATIONSHIP EXPERT: And yet -- exactly. I mean here`s the whole idea; I`ve always thought the biological debate was a weak one. Because when you think about it -- we`re supposed to be more evolved than other animals -- which means that when we go into monogamous, committed relationships, such as marriage, we know what we`re getting into. We know what those vows mean. And for some reason if you think you can`t be faithful, guess what -- don`t get married.
BEHAR: Well, I mean what she`s saying is that eventually, the sex between two people can diminish, and you still want to stay married to that person. So why not go out and just -- you know, have your little fling with your wife or your husband knowing about it.
Stephen, let me go to you, how do you feel about this theory?
STEPHEN A. SMITH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well I`m torn. In one sense, Joy, it`s really this simple. Anything that`s consented between two consenting adults is absolutely fine with me. People make their own rules in their own individual relationships.
On the other hand, the bottom line is that any time rules are involved you`re usually going to have a problem with a man. Because men don`t particularly like to conform to rules that women try to institute and ultimately enforce, unless they`re happy of course.
BEHAR: But you know what, I believe that the institution of marriage and you know, who wants to live in an institution --
SMITH: The operative word is "institution".
BEHAR: I know. I think that the institution of marriage was basically created by men to control women. So, it`s not like the rules are made by women, Stephen, the rules were made by men.
SMITH: Well, you`re absolutely right. I`m not talking about the rule of marriage. I`m saying this particular idea that Holly Hill has basically presented. I`m saying that she was alluding to the fact that it gives women more, some more degree of control.
And what I`m saying to you is that that`s exactly why it wouldn`t work. Because the objective is to give women more control over a particular situation as it pertains to a relationship. And that`s usually something that men are going to struggle to conform to, particularly when they are unhappy.
I do agree about the institution of marriage, and how it`s supposed to be about monogamy. But obviously, that`s not something that most men have dealt with admirably. Let`s be real.
HILL: But men getting more sex are generally happier and I can pretty much guarantee that. I think every man will agree with that statement.
BEHAR: Yes, they are happier.
NOEL BIDERMAN, FOUNDER, ASHLEYMADISON.COM: I have four million members that will tell you that.
BEHAR: No, this idea that a man is compelled to spread his seed. I mean -- is that a cop-out for bad behavior that you tend to encourage on your Web site?
BIDERMAN: It`s not a cop-out. I think, listen -- I think the theory espoused in this book takes a lot of courage actually. And I would applaud the courage it takes and I actually am one to endorse that theory.
Ironically, Joy, if someone did follow that path, that`s probably a customer I`ve lost. So, you know, it could be the end of my Ashley Madison business.
But ultimately I think she`s on to something. We know that all things being equal, a couple in an open relationship that kind of consents to outside sexual relationship versus a couple in the monogamous one, the open relationships have a much better chance of standing the test of time. So they`re on to something.
BEHAR: I don`t know about that.
We had open marriages back in the day, in the `70s, and that was God`s way of telling you, you need a divorce.
HILL: This is not an open relationship. I`m so sorry to interrupt but this is definitely not an open relationship.
BEHAR: What`s the difference?
HILL: An open relationship is a loss of power for both the male and the woman. This is -- more power for the woman. It`s exchanging vulnerability for power. And it`s a happier man that knows exactly where he stands and what he`s --
BEHAR: Why get married in the first place?
FALZONE: That`s what I say. And Holly says something about negotiated affairs being empowering. They`re the farthest thing from empowering. Because what Stephen alluded to is that men don`t like rules. Do you really think that a man going to call you the moment he sees a hot one at the bar and goes, you know what, baby. I think I`m going to cheat on you tonight. Is that ok? Can I have a sign off?
SMITH: Exactly.
FALZONE: There is still going to be mistrust within that relationship.
(CROSS TALKING)
FALZONE: When you`re still going to cheat when you want to.
BIDERMAN: Sex isn`t the central tenet of a marriage. There`s a notion being floated around here that sex is the central tenet of a marriage, it`s just not. It`s an important element for sure, but your economic situation, your children, your extended family, those are the primary things that you speak to women that matter the most in a marriage. I think that`s where the disconnect is coming. It`s not about oh, our sex life is bad, just get a divorce, it`s not that simple.
HILL: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Stephen isn`t this -- yes, I know -- but isn`t this negotiated fidelity idea just -- the men just will eat this up. It`s like giving them your cake and eat it, too. Come on.
SMITH: Absolutely. It`s utterly ridiculous. I`m not talking about the idea itself. But I think at the end of the day, it ultimately is ridiculous simply because you have to understand something. When you`re talking about rules and regulations in the interest of, in the interest of just being fair and honest, men like to enforce rules but we don`t like to necessarily confirm to them.
And in other words, when you are being, you know, when you are committing you know, infidelity on some cases, adultery and let`s be honest, I`m not married, but obviously I know a lot of married men, when you`re committing adultery or what have you, you know what? You`re thinking about it along the lines of, I`m not happy, my sex life could be better or this particular woman, I might not care about her that much, but boy, do I want to get my hands on her.
But if you`re a woman had that same mentality as a man, you`d have a heart attack. You simply can`t deal with that. You simply can`t deal with that.
(CROSS TALKING)
HILL: You`d still lie.
BEHAR: Say it again?
SMITH: Excuse me?
(CROSS TALKING)
HILL: What I`m saying is if you didn`t have to lie anymore, you`d still lie? Do you think that`s --
(CROSS TALKING)
SMITH: I think, I think, I`m not talking about me. Let`s not put me in the equation. What I`m saying is, what I`m saying is men, men --
(CROSS TALKING)
BIDERMAN: You`re different than every other man.
SMITH: Never do that. But what I`m saying is as a man, men do have a problem with conforming and I am saying to you flat-out that even when you don`t have to lie, by and large, some men will lie because again, they want to be able to control you.
BEHAR: You know what I don`t get about this -- if you`re --
SMITH: Wait a minute.
BEHAR: Wait a minute. If you`re going to have an affair, why tell the person you`re going to do it. Part of the fun is the sneaking around.
FALZONE: And usually the ones that cheat --
BIDERMAN: You`re right. You`re exactly right, Joy. You`re exactly right. That is part of the allure.
BEHAR: So the whole idea really goes against itself in a way.
FALZONE: Its` so dangerous. And not only that, it`s all fun-and- games until someone gets pregnant. We`re assuming that the people who have involved in the extra marital affairs are actually ok with this and they`re happy. What happens when the girl gets attached to your husband and she wants to become the other woman and eventually the other wife? This is very complicated and a bad idea.
SMITH: Hello.
BEHAR: That`s why you have rules.
(CROSS TALKING)
BEHAR: Tell us the rules. Let`s tell them the rules, Holly.
For example, Holly has a rule that you`re not allowed to spoon, you can have sex but you can`t spoon. Why not? Too intimate, the spooning?
HILL: Yes.
BIDERMAN: Stephen will pass.
HILL: Men and women have sex for different reasons. Women have sex for intimacy, the cuddling and the wining and the dining and the wooing. And men have sex often for the cheap thrills or the face it gives them with other men. So what we do is we negotiate unique rules for every couple because everyone is going to have different rules that prevent attachments forming.
BEHAR: You don`t know that people are going to adhere to the rules when they go out there.
FALZONE: That`s a big concern.
BEHAR: I know, this conversation could go on and people will have it in their own kitchens right now.
FALZONE: They will.
BEHAR: Ok, thanks, everybody.
Up next, a woman who had a husband, children and 97 dogs and a Febreeze (ph) bill you wouldn`t believe.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s constantly all day long that I have to just keep going behind them and filling the water back up. Picking the paper back up and putting new paper down.
More dog food. Giving them more food.
It`s been hard for me to take care of them as it is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Americans love their pets, we really do. But how do you know if you have too many? It`s a fine line between compassionate and crazy cat lady, right? So what is the point at which a person goes from being a pet owner to a pet hoarder?
With me now are some of the people featured in Animal Planet`s "Confessions: Animal Hoarding": Robin, who had over incredibly 20 pets; Janice, whose pet collection topped out at over 90 animals -- she`s laughing; and Karen Cassiday, a clinical psychologist and owner of the Anxiety and Agoraphobia Treatment Center in Chicago.
Robin, 20 pets, what happened? Tell me your story, Robin.
ROBIN, ANIMAL HOARDER: Tell you my story. Well I grew up as an animal lover. So it`s kind of easy to get into the habit of having lots of animals around.
But I think that my fall from grace came with a traumatic experience as it does for most people I think in my -- in my case. I had breast cancer and as I was going through breast cancer, although I was surrounded by people that loved me and things, good things going on, I really felt quite alone.
I went to all the chemotherapy treatments alone. You know, I came home alone. But I had my two little girls there. And the comfort that I got came from the four cats that would lay on my bed with me and you know, love me unconditionally through the days I was getting sick and --
BEHAR: How did it get from 4 to 20? How did it go from four --
ROBIN: Well -- well, I started out. I had two dogs and four cats at the time. And then once, once all the treatment and everything was through, it was just kind of a -- a natural progression for me to just add more. Add more things to love, add more things to love me back.
BEHAR: I got it. Now, what animals did you have, though? What were they, dogs?
ROBIN: I had four dogs. I have seven cats. And four birds. And then the rest were small animals, frogs and lizards.
BEHAR: But the birds, weren`t they scared of the cats?
ROBIN: No. Actually you know what the funny thing is seven cats, not one time did the cats ever go after the birds.
BEHAR: Really?
ROBIN: My husband went after the birds.
BEHAR: What?
ROBIN: But the cats never went after the birds.
BEHAR: Ok.
ROBIN: My husband hated those birds.
BEHAR: They hated the birds? Really why did he --
ROBIN: He did.
BEHAR: -- they pooped on his head, probably, right?
ROBIN: No, no, no they made a lot of noise --
BEHAR: Oh yes.
ROBIN: -- and there were times when I said, you know, he said get rid of the birds. And I said, well you know what, the kids make a lot of noise, should I get rid of them, too. You know kinds of things so was always kind of a --
BEHAR: Did you ever get rid of him?
ROBIN: No, no. No but they asked me if I would. They did ask me on the show if I would give up, would I choose the animals or him if I had to make a choice and I chose the animals.
BEHAR: You did, you said you would choose the animals?
ROBIN: I did, I did say that.
BEHAR: Ok, all right, Janice, let`s go to you. How many animals do you have, Janice?
JANICE, ANIMAL HOARDER: Hi, I have 97 dogs. I had 20 cats.
BEHAR: You --
JANICE: I had five goats.
BEHAR: You had 97 dogs --
JANICE: Yes.
BEHAR: -- 20 cats and what else?
JANICE: Five goats.
BEHAR: Goats?
JANICE: Yes.
BEHAR: Where did you keep them -- all these animals?
JANICE: We had five acres. We had five acres. So it, you know, it was, it was a lot of land for all of them.
BEHAR: And why did you -- why do you feel -- why did you get that?
KAREN CASSIDAY, A CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Janice, you`ve got to tell people the cats and dogs were all in your trailer. So -- the goats got to live outside.
JANICE: Yes, the goats didn`t live inside, for sure.
BEHAR: No, the goats were not. But the animals were all inside. That`s a lot of dogs and cats to be indoors.
JANICE: It is a lot of dogs and cats. I can tell you that that what happened was, that I, I started out raising Yorkies. And then I ended up getting hooked up with this guy, and it became a very abusive relationship.
It became a way of him keeping me there. I -- got where I couldn`t leave. He would threaten me. And you know, and I, and I couldn`t let somebody just take my dogs and put them down because he would threaten to take them in to the county and put them down. And so I took care of them.
I did everything that I could do. I loved them, I took care of them. And it was a lot on me. It was a lot on me. But I couldn`t get away.
BEHAR: Yes. But I mean -- I understand where you`re coming from. I love my doggies --
JANICE: Yes.
BEHAR: -- and I have a cat, too.
So I, I understand, but I have two dogs and a cat and I have, I have shared custody with my daughter.
JANICE: Right.
BEHAR: So -- but -- that`s 100 animals, approximately in one space. How did it get to be all of those animals? I mean you start with two and then what happens?
JANICE: Well, what happened was, when I moved in with him, of course I got breast cancer really bad.
BEHAR: Also.
JANICE: Yes, I did. And I actually had 27 out of 30 lymph nodes positive and I had to go through a bone marrow transplant. They didn`t think I was going to survive. By the time that I got out of the hospital, my husband was supposed to be taking care of the dogs and the animals and he wasn`t watching them very well.
So when I got home, I had ten dogs that were pregnant, dropping puppies everywhere --
BEHAR: Oh boy.
JANICE: And I couldn`t find a shelter or a rescue --
BEHAR: Yes.
JANICE: -- that would take them. Because they were like, well you`ve got to get on a waiting list.
BEHAR: Ok. Karen, what I`m hearing is trauma here, that`s causing this type of hoarding. What are you hearing?
CASSIDAY: Well, what we know from science is that people who hoard animals typically have traumatic or distressing life events that happen that`s associated with the onset of hoarding.
But we think that`s not just the problem --
BEHAR: Hoarding animals or hoarding anything?
CASSIDAY: Well, you know 40 percent of object hoarders hoard animals.
BEHAR: Really?
CASSIDAY: And we really think animal hoarding is a variant of hoarding behavior. And we do consider them a mental health problem. We know that animal hoarders view their relationship with their animals as being a very special, loving one. They`re more likely to attribute human characteristics to their animals than other pet owners do.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
CASSIDAY: And they tend to have difficulties with organization, making decisions, procrastinating.
BEHAR: Robin --
CASSIDAY: Things that make it easy to hoard.
BEHAR: Robin -- your daughter said that your pets were your drug.
ROBIN: Yes, I thought it was quite of an interesting -- an interesting analogy. I -- I did. There was kind of a -- euphoria I think every time a new animal came in. And it got to the point where I was actually hiding them. I would bring in a new cat and hide it in my daughter -- one daughter`s bedroom for a couple of weeks until the other cats smelled it out and there wouldn`t be any fights.
And then all of a sudden I`d say by the way honey there is another cat in the house.
So I was using it that way. I was happy doing it and I was --
BEHAR: I had a friend who did that with dresses, but you don`t have to feed an outfit.
Ok, guys, stay right there, we`ll continue this right after the break.
There must be more food.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Which animals were you considering giving up?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, Louie, and then probably our deaf cat who is two years old and then Violet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have to ask this, do you think that`s enough?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For me, for now? Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Is animal hoarding on the rise in America? I`m back with people who know a little bit about collecting pets.
Karen, you`re a shrink. Tell us what the cure is for this. It sounds like a mental disorder of some kind. Does that upset you two ladies, when I say it`s a mental disorder?
ROBIN: Not at all.
BEHAR: Because it seems a little out of control, frankly. Karen? What`s the cure?
CASSIDAY: Well, we know unfortunately if you don`t do therapy 100 percent of the people about animal hoarding relapse. And the treatment that we use right now is one we use for object hoarding.
We do something called motivational interviewing where we try to help the person understand that the best way to love the animals and their family or friends, is to give them up and to just have a reasonable amount. And then we try to help them learn to develop an identity and a way of living that is not based on just perfect love with animals, but connecting with their people and friends and their community.
BEHAR: Yes. You ladies both gave up your pets, right? Robin, you gave up 21 of your pets.
ROBIN: No, no, I did not.
I did not give up all my pets. I gave up one dog and three of my cats.
BEHAR: What have you got left?
ROBIN: I have three dogs and four cats. No, and the birds were also given up.
BEHAR: The birds, you had to give the birds up.
ROBIN: Had to, my husband was threatening to use them as an appetizer for dinner. So it was not a good situation.
BEHAR: Yes. I mean it sounds like you have it under control, a little bit now. That`s not as many --
ROBIN: I`m getting there. I`m getting there, yes.
BEHAR: And Janice, you gave up all but two dogs, I understand, and one cat.
JANICE: Two dogs and one cat and I`m happy with that.
BEHAR: Yes.
JANICE: I`m happy with that, I`m perfectly satisfied that I have two dogs and one cat and I have my life back.
BEHAR: Did you have withdrawal when you had to give them up? There`s separation anxiety when you give up a pet, too.
JANICE: I do miss them because like I said, I was put in that situation, and I had to take care of them. And, yes, you take care of them for so long, yes, you do love them and you do take care of them. You do want the best for them.
BEHAR: Where are they? What happened to them?
JANICE: Well, the Humane Society came. As soon as the Humane Society came, I knew right then and there I could let them go, because I knew they were ok and I knew I could get out of there and I could leave.
And get out of the relationship I was in.
BEHAR: Karen, 250,000 animals are reportedly affected by animal hoarding a year. So people who are watching right now, is there anything that they can do to help the situation? There are all of these animals out there.
CASSIDAY: Well I think the best thing is to contact animal control to -- if you have a relationship with a person that hoards, to gently confront them and ask them if they need some help. But you have to use a combined approach where you`re trying to encourage them to get treatment. Getting animal control involved because most people can`t make that initial decision to give up their animals. They love them dearly. It hurts to let go.
BEHAR: Right. I know. It`s very hard. It`s very hard when they go. When they go to dog heaven and cat heaven, it`s pretty upsetting for everybody. Thanks, everybody.
Confession -- ok, ladies -- Animal Hoarding airs Wednesday nights at "Animal Planet".
Up next, Gisele Bundchen takes a break from looking gorgeous to say all mothers should be forced to breastfeed.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up later, on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, while it may have been a rough personal year for Sandra Bullock she still somehow manages to top the "Forbes" list as Hollywood`s highest-paid actress. And author Anne Rice talks with Joy about her controversial decision to quit organized religion. Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: You know whenever I need medical advice, I always turn to celebrities, because who knows more about science than famous people and their publicists. Supermodel Gisele Bundchen is causing controversy over her comment that breastfeeding should be law. Really, what about the octomom, her breasts would have to be like 7-eleven, right, open 24 hours a day. Here to discuss are Karen Bergreen comedian and author of "The Follow" - what is it, "Following Polly," sorry. Andy Borowitz comedian and creator of borowitzreport.com. And Lea Goldman features editor for "Marie Claire." OK, I need glasses.
ANDY BOROWITZ, COMEDIAN: Well Reese Witherspoon is an optician now so you can get them from her. They are all - she gets the medicine, absolutely.
BEHAR: Now this is what Gisele Bundchen said, quote, "I think there should be a worldwide law, in my opinion, that mothers should breastfeed their babies for six months." What do you think about that, Karen?
KAREN BERGREEN, COMEDIAN: Well I think that it`s so ridiculous that the celebrities sit there and decide what the law should be. They don`t even know what it is. And frankly, like a lot of women can`t breastfeed -
BOROWITZ: That`s right.
BERGREEN: Or they don`t want to breastfeed. She is just so excited because she gets to eat, right. It`s the one time when you`re allowed to eat.
BEHAR: She only breastfed for like three months or three weeks, I forget. It`s a very short time that she actually breastfed her child, so what is she talking about?
BOROWITZ: Well you know I actually have a Google news alert for the words Gisele Bundchen and breast. So this came up. And you know, reading about it, I feel the same way you do. Like we don`t really need models and actors telling us about medicine and what to do.
BEHAR: Yes.
BOROWITZ: It`s like actors should stick to acting and Gisele should stick to standing there like she does.
BEHAR: Exactly.
BOROWITZ: I think that`s, she`s good at that, that standing there thing.
BEHAR: But do you really think she wants a law, I think she`s just saying that breastfeeding is great. I think she`s speaking hyperbole-y. Whatever the word is.
BERGREEN: Hyperbolically.
BEHAR: Hyperbolically, because she, you know, she was talking at the top of her head.
LEA GOLDMAN, MARIE CLAIRE: It makes me wistful for the days when models were models. And they just stood in the corner and said, what I really want to do is act. So I kind of wish that she would go back to that.
BEHAR: But now they are all actors so now what they want to do is direct.
BOROWITZ: But also she wants to be a legend, she`s talking about a worldwide law. And I`m just thinking like, how does that work, are we going to get like Obama and Ahmadinejad and Kim Jong-il together over this whole breastfeeding thing -
BEHAR: Right it`s not going to work.
BOROWITZ: It`s really not going to work out.
BEHAR: But she backtracked.
BOROWITZ: She did.
BEHAR: And she said my intention is making a comment about the importance of breastfeeding has nothing to do with the law. It comes from my passion and belief and I`m not here to judge why do celebrities always backtrack about everything they say because they get flack about it.
BERGREEN: Well I think they do that because she`s not informed. And what she is going to do now, she is going to go into rehab for having said something.
BEHAR: Right she`ll be in rehab.
BERGREEN: And then she`ll go on TV and get even more work. So she`s going to be famous.
BEHAR: I mean what about women who don`t share her lifestyle? She can easily breastfeed - but she didn`t I`m telling you, it was very short. I did, did you?
BERGREEN: I did, but I had a hard time. I had a hard time. I feel very --
BEHAR: Why? I love this, the baby wouldn`t attach?
BERGREEN: Yes. My baby was premature. And --
BOROWITZ: Well I also breastfed and it was very difficult thing. I think the thing is that --
BERGREEN: You have an ample bosom though.
BOROWITZ: Thank you very much, I`ve tried to hide it. But you know, babies, it`s true, like babies, it does take two to tangle, right, ladies? Like not all babies are into this, law or no law, they just won`t do it.
BEHAR: You know she also gave birth in a bathtub. Just FYI.
GOLDMAN: And she also meditated for eight hours. Apparently during the labor, which just makes me love her that much more.
BEHAR: That labroid (ph) thing with the baby come swimming out, a lot of those babies drown. Just saying -
GOLDMAN: Is that true?
BOROWITZ: That`s true.
BEHAR: Yes, not a lot but there`s a percentage that actually drown.
BOROWITZ: Really.
BERGREEN: She`s reading 13th-century medical journals.
BEHAR: Exactly.
BOROWITZ: Well I don`t know about reading, but --
BEHAR: OK let`s move on. Sandra Bullock is the highest-paid actress in Hollywood, she banked $56 million in the past year. Do you think Jesse James regrets being a bad boy now? Andy?
BOROWITZ: Well, I don`t know, you know, $56 million, you know, that`s a good year. But Michelle "Bombshell" McGee also had an awesome year, she has a new neo-Nazi tattoo that she got this year, so that`s pretty amazing.
BEHAR: Yes, oh really.
BOROWITZ: I think, I don`t know, like $56 million is a huge amount of money. If you want to put it into some context, she could buy "Newsweek" 56 million times, that gives you an idea of how much money --
BEHAR: "Newsweek" is in a lot of trouble.
BOROWITZ: I don`t know, I just -- I like to think of like what are you going to do with that money. To me, you think of Sandra Bullock, she`s America`s sweetheart. And I think she would probably do something philanthropic with that. And I think maybe she could compensate all of us who saw "The Proposal" for example.
BEHAR: Yes, pretty bad. "Wild Side," too I think overrated.
BOROWITZ: Yes, a little bit over rated.
BEHAR: A bunch of liberal baloney, in my opinion.
BOROWITZ: It made me feel awesome to be white.
BERGREEN: I liked it. I was on a plane and I had valium on a plane, and it was really good.
BEHAR: Well it was good for a plane ride when you`re drugged. I guess yes, by the way, she made the money before the scandal with Jesse James. And then she had the baby and everybody loves her again and everything like that. But can she continue to make this kind of money? I mean the post-cheating scandal, is it going to hurt or help. Lea?
GOLDMAN: Help, totally help. Who doesn`t love a good scandal. But I always feel like we`re missing the story on this one because we`re so focused on what she lost rather than what he gained. And I feel like, you know, he gave up America`s sweetheart, now Hollywood`s most successful actress, but he got this neo-Nazi tatted up stripper, pole dancer. And I feel like you can`t buy that kind of notoriety, you can`t put a price tag on it. So kudos to him.
BEHAR: That`s true, who could buy that? And Reese Witherspoon and Cameron Diaz were number two and three, they each made $32 million. She blew them out of the water, didn`t she.
BERGREEN: It`s a total like Betty and Veronica thing, brown hair.
BEHAR: Is that it? Well what makes her so successful? What is it about her?
BERGREEN: I just really like her, it`s hard to make a joke about it, because she`s so likable. She`s really -- I just want everything to be good for her. Maybe she`s the most horrible person in the world.
BEHAR: I`m sure she`s lovely. That doesn`t mean you can`t make a joke about her.
BERGREEN: I can`t.
BEHAR: Try Karen.
BERGREEN: Making a joke of her is like trying to say something positive about Hitler.
BEHAR: Oh no, we make jokes about mother Theresa. She`s not mother Theresa. OK, anyway.
GOLDMAN: No she is.
BERGREEN: -- in my home.
BEHAR: Well she lost a husband, gained a son and is making bank now. That`s the point.
BOROWITZ: Right.
BEHAR: OK, next story, it`s President Obama`s 49th birthday today, happy birthday, Mr. president. And he`ll spend doing what he likes doing best, kicking back, having a cigarette and listening to tapes of John McCain`s concession speech. Now, you think that his birthday is a touchy issue for birthers?
BOROWITZ: It is. Well they`re claiming it`s not his birthday, actually. Because he hasn`t produced a real birth certificate. And you know, it`s a problem --
BEHAR: So he doesn`t exist?
BOROWITZ: Well when you`re born in Kenya the record-keeping is terrible. I just think this is maybe a time on his birthday, you know, whatever your political affiliation, to give this guy some credit. He`s come all the way here from a foreign land, he`s moving amongst us as if he`s one of us, and I think he`s doing a great job of fitting in as an America.
BEHAR: Twenty seven percent doubt that Obama was born in the United States.
BERGREEN: I think he should be required to show the birth certificate in order to get the free ice cream sundae at Baskin-Robbins.
BOROWITZ: You think so. That will be a good thing.
BEHAR: Now he`s 49, but he, you know, the presidents really age quickly, don`t they? Look at the picture of his before and after here. Let`s see. OK, there he is, I think before, he looks young and virile and adorable. And then let`s see him now, he aged a little bit. His hair is whiter.
GOLDMAN: He`s starting to look like my dad, except my dad is not black.
BEHAR: Let`s see Bush. We have a picture of president bush? There he is before. When he first got in. And there he is -- look how he aged. Eight years of that. Of almost destroying the country. This is what he looks like. And then Clinton? We have Clinton? Clinton. Look at him. Gorgeous, and then what they did to him, look what happened.
GOLDMAN: Oh. Poor Bill.
BOROWITZ: That`s rough.
GOLDMAN: Poor Bill.
BEHAR: I mean, the way the Republicans -- what they did, that impeachment, you see what happens?
BOROWITZ: That is terrible. That is really terrible.
BEHAR: He`s spending time with his family, President Obama and without his family. Sasha and Malia, and Michelle are all in Spain, I believe. Do you feel bad for him?
BOROWITZ: Well he`s not all alone. It`s him and the Salahis - they are a wonderful couple. They were at the party.
BEHAR: They were on THE VIEW today.
BOROWITZ: Are they - were they really?
BEHAR: Mrs. Salahi was on THE VIEW with the "Washington Housewives."
BOROWITZ: Oh so she was an invited guest to THE VIEW. How unique, she didn`t just flow by security, you wanted her there?
BEHAR: Well yes, we invited her.
BOROWITZ: Ok, so -
BEHAR: And she really had no answer to any of the questions as far as I could see. How did you get in? You know, were you invited? Well, read the book she kept saying. I`m not reading the book. Are you going to read the book? Why would I read the book?
GOLDMAN: I would read it if I got it for free. I`m curious about the details, but I won`t put down $20 for it.
BEHAR: You read it and send me the bulletin.
GOLDMAN: I know, I`ll send you the cliffs notes.
BEHAR: OK thanks everybody.
Up next, best-selling author Anne Rice stops by to explain why she`s quitting Christianity.
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BEHAR: Anne Rice`s "Vampire Chronicles" are always on the "New York Times" bestseller list. But the author is now making headlines by announcing that she is leaving Christianity. Here with me now to speak about it is the author of the upcoming novel, "Of Love And Evil" Anne Rice, welcome to the show, Anne. How are you?
ANNE RICE, AUTHOR: Thank you very much. I`m fine, fine, glad to be here.
BEHAR: OK, I want to take a second to read what you posted the on your Facebook page, OK. You said "Today I quit being a Christian. I`m out in the name of Christ, I refuse to be anti-gay, I refuse to be anti- feminist. I refuse to be anti-artificial birth control. I refuse to be anti-democrat. I refuse to be anti-secular humanism. I refuse to be anti- science. I refuse to be anti-life. In the name of Christ I quit Christianity and being a Christian. Amen." Quite a statement. Quite a statement. What brought you to the point of I quit, I quit my religion.
RICE: Well, there were a few last straws. But basically, I`d been living as a Christian for 12 years. And living as a public Christian for at least five. And I`d seen one thing after another happen. One thing after another that organized religion had done, basically in our secular culture. Or done publicly, somewhere in the world. And that had caused me considerable moral discomfort. And my anger was building up. My confusion was building up. I wanted to exonerate myself, say, I`m not complicit in all of the different things that Christians are doing publicly. Around the world. I want to step away from this. My commitment to Christ demands a certain honesty and authenticity for me. And I am moving away from this group of his followers.
BEHAR: OK, OK your son, Christopher, who is also an author, I understand is gay. Did that have something to do with your decision?
RICE: Well certainly Christopher keeps me aware of what`s going on in the world with gay people. But I had a gay readership, gay friends, lived in a gay neighborhood, the Castro in San Francisco. Really when Christopher was a very little child. And certainly many, many years before Christopher ever announced that he himself was gay. So, yes, I mean he, you know, I can`t help but be aware of gay issues and so forth. But I was concerned with them long before he became concerned.
BEHAR: Uh huh, yes, OK. Now in one of the -- on the same posting you wrote that you refused to be anti-gay and anti-feminist. I think we know that many of the Christian sects are anti-gay. But just elaborate on the anti-feminist part a little bit. Where you see it.
RICE: I saw a lot of it in the Catholic church. I heard a lot of rhetoric that condemned radical feminism, and feminism. That held feminism to be an evil, along with secular humanism. There are people within the Christian community who are very, very anti-abortion. And I understand that, by the way. I myself am anti-abortion. But they feel that this is the only result of radical feminism. When I don`t see it that way at all. I think radical feminism has done an enormous amount to improve the lot of women all over the world in the last 20, 30 years.
BEHAR: Uh huh.
RICE: And to see it all reduced to fairly abstract beliefs about reproduction and reproductive rights, this was very, very disillusioning to me. And of course, we`ve all heard the statement of certain radical preachers that 9/11 happened because of radical feminism, among other evils in our society. To me, these are horrifying remarks, they`re horrifying. They`re unrealistic.
BEHAR: And they get traction, they get a lot of traction.
RICE: Yes, they do.
BEHAR: So you`re anti-choice for other women? Or just for yourself and your family? You would deny other women the choice to have an abortion?
RICE: I would not deny them the choice. And I certainly would not ever vote for abortion to be outlawed again. I do think it`s the taking of a human life. I never faced the decision, thank god, I never had to decide to do something like that. I don`t know that I would have. But I cannot, I don`t think it`s an enforceable law, a law against abortion. And I think we have an obligation to have enforceable laws, reasonable laws, laws that really work in society. I don`t think laws against abortion have ever worked. From what I`ve been able to investigate.
BEHAR: Well not with the RU-486 coming out, the morning after pill and all that, it`s going to be impossible to enforce, so they should give it up. Now are you concerned at all that in your statement you lumped Christians together? I`m sure there`s some backlash on it because there are plenty of Christians who say, listen, they can preach what they want in that church, but I don`t believe that.
RICE: Well, yes, they have said that. I`ve received many, many emails, very gentle, very generous emails from people saying, come to our church. We`re not anti-gay at all. You know, we have a gay minister or we have a gay deacon and so forth. Come here, we respect women and so forth. And certainly that`s always been an option, since the reformation, to go find a group that more reflects to what you hold to be the truth.
BEHAR: Is there one denomination that you do like? Is there one denomination at all?
RICE: Right now I would prefer to walk away from the argument. From the confusion. You know, since I wrote "Christ the Lord out of Egypt" and that was published in 2005, I`ve made a lot of Christian friends, they`re not all Catholics, many are Protestants, they come from different walks of life. I`ve talked to them a lot about what we believe or feel we have do believe. And the appropriate thing for me to do right now is step away altogether. I`m not leaving, just the Catholic church. I want to leave the entire fray. The entire quarrel. The entire public face of Christianity as it is right now. I can`t be committed to Christ and remain in this group. And that doesn`t mean that I think these people are bad. I`m not saying they`re bad. And there are, as you just pointed out, people who believe radically different things from one another. But I have to step away. I have to sort of go into the wilderness. I have to talk to God personally. And seek His guidance for what he wants me to do To keep my commitment to Christ at the center of my life.
BEHAR: OK, all right. We`re going to have more with Anne Rice in just a minute. Stay right there.
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BEHAR: I`m back with author Anne Rice, best-selling author, I might say. Really an incredible number of books you sell, Miss Rice, 100 million around the world, that`s a lot, that`s a lot of books. Congratulations on that. I read something interesting --
RICE: Thank you.
BEHAR: That you were raised a catholic. You left the church and then you were an atheist for a long time, is that right?
RICE: For about 38 years. And then I went back to the church in 1998, yes.
BEHAR: Why did you go back?
RICE: Well I experienced - well I experienced a personal conversion. I realized I believed in God. And that I wanted to return to him. And I went rather spontaneously through the doors of the Catholic Church back to God, because that was my childhood, my childhood church. That was my mother tongue, as a Christian. And I really -- I really did not know quite what to expect. I had many, many doubts. Many - many theological questions, sociological questions and I firmly believed at that time that if I put all of this in the hands of God, it was going to work out. That it would work out very well. I didn`t have to know the answers, he knew the answers. What I couldn`t foresee was my increasing discomforts as I learned more and more and more about what fellow Catholics and fellow Christians believed and what they did. The kind of actions they took in the public arena.
BEHAR: Well it`s mostly the hierarchy, I was raised a Catholic, also, and I`m extremely disappointed with the hierarchy and with the way Rome is behaving these days. The priest abuse scandal must have really upset you. I`m sure it did me and a lot of people I know. I mean it`s very difficult to stay with a church that looks the other way for years and years on something so heinous as that, right?
RICE: Well I think that`s absolutely -- absolutely correct. And when the clergy abuse scandal surfaced again in the "New York Times" in the last few months, there was a terrific outcry from Catholic who didn`t want to hear about it.
BEHAR: Yes.
RICE: Didn`t want to deal with it. Called the "Times" anti-Catholic, insisted they were being bashed. I mean it was as if these people couldn`t tolerate any criticism of their church. And yet, we were getting all this information from reliable news services that were telling us there were horrendous abuses. And that was very disillusioning, very, very, disillusioning. I would post --
BEHAR: Go ahead.
RICE: go ahead.
BEHAR: I was going to say why do you suppose these people you`re talking about will not tolerate any criticism of the church? It`s an institution. It`s just an institution.
RICE: I don`t fully understand it I`ve gone on my Facebook page and posted links to what I consider substantive news stories to what was going on and Catholics would go on the page and they would be furious, they would say, what kind of Catholic are you that you would dare to publish a link to the story in "The New York Times," about Pope Benedict. How dare you. I mean they were calling for me to quit they were saying, get out, you`re not a Catholic. Don`t mislead other Catholics into buying your books. Now they were saying rough things. And all of this was pretty demoralizing to me. It really was.
BEHAR: Sweep it under the rug and maybe it will go away. I guess that`s the thinking.
RICE: Well, yes. I mean for me, the church was the faithful. It was not the hierarchy. It was the faithful, it was the people in the pews, the nuns and priests working with people every day all over the world, that was the church.
BEHAR: That`s right, OK, Anne, thanks very much for joining me and good luck with all of your work.
RICE: Thank you Joy.
BEHAR: Good luck with all of your work.
RICE: Thank you.
BEHAR: And thank you all for watching. Good night, everybody.
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