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Nancy Grace
Pregnant Baby-Sitter Charged With Murdering Baby
Aired August 19, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Live, Ohio. Paramedics race to an Akron apartment after a bone-chilling 911 call about a 23-month- old baby girl`s bathtime accident. The baby-sitter leaves to go get a towel, then thud. She finds the baby limp, vomiting profusely, she says.
Bombshell tonight. Drowning in a nearly empty tub? Tonight, we confirm baby Aaliya had bleeding to the skull, advanced brain swelling. Does that sound like drowning to you? Then there`s the seemingly frantic 911 call. Tonight, we have the 911 audio.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Dispatch. What is your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need a paramedic, please. My friend -- I was giving my daughter -- or my friend`s daughter a bath and walked out the room to grab a towel, and she fell. And I don`t know. I came back in there and she`s all limp!
911 OPERATOR: How old is this child?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think she`s about -- she`s about to be 2.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Is she conscious?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. Her eyes are going -- (INAUDIBLE) Oh, my God! Her eyes are different directions! What -- what...
911 OPERATOR: OK...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) I just need a paramedic. Please help me. I just want this kid to be -- oh, my God. I feel so, so bad! Honey!
911 OPERATOR: OK, just stay on with me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s puking. She`s puking. She puked on me!
911 OPERATOR: OK. That`s very good. Turn her on her side.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God, man! Are they here yet? (INAUDIBLE) Does it really take this long? It really takes this long? Oh, my gosh! (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: OK, listen, listen! You`re doing really good.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God! She`s puking! (INAUDIBLE) Please help me, please help me, please help me!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And breaking news tonight. Live, South Carolina, 6:00 AM, North Edisto River bank. Police and emergency dive crews pull up a Chrysler sedan, pulling it up out of the murky river waters. Trapped inside, 1 and 2-year-old little brothers, still strapped in their carseats. Mommy says it was a horrible accident. But the car went down a boat ramp. It was found with the ignition still on, the car in neutral. And Mommy`s bone dry.
But tonight, evidence says Mommy suffocates the two little boys in a motel room then sets up this elaborate ruse, while we uncover evidence the little boys fought, they struggled to stop Mommy from suffocating them. Her family says she`s a loving mom. What? And tonight, she actually blames her own mother. But is the simple truth that Mommy just wanted to be free?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Seemingly, history has repeated itself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) We need help fast.
GRACE: Only about 100 miles away from where Susan Smith...
SUSAN SMITH, CONVICTED OF MURDERING HER CHILDREN: I can`t even describe what I`m going through.
GRACE: ... plunged her little boys into the water...
DAVID SMITH, SUSAN SMITH`S HUSBAND: It took me many years to actually allow myself to think of how they drowned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The driver got out, but the kids -- two kids are still in there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shaquan Duley...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... the South Carolina mom who police say reportedly admitted to killing both her little boys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Duley, you`re being charged, ma`am on arrest warrants both charging you with attempted murder, ma`am. You understand that?
SHAQUAN DULEY, CHARGED WITH MURDERING HER CHILDREN: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That mother took her hand and put it over her two children`s mouths and suffocated them in a hotel room.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The autopsy results have confirmed that the children were, indeed, strangled.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She then put those two children`s bodies in a car. She let that car roll into that water.
GRACE: She said there was an accident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mind you, the children were deceased prior to (INAUDIBLE) she trying to find a way to discard the bodies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If convicted, Shaquan Duley could spend the rest of her life in a state prison.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Paramedics race to an Akron apartment after a bone-chilling 911 call about a 23-month-old baby girl`s bathtime accident. We confirm baby Aaliya had bleeding to the skull. She had advanced brain swelling. Does that sound like a drowning death to you?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s just, like, moaning. She`s totally limp.
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s puking a lot. She`s puking a lot!
911 OPERATOR: She`s throwing up a lot? That`s good. Just make sure that she doesn`t breathe it back in...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got to get her to the side. I got to get her to the side. Her eyes are still going crazy, ma`am.
911 OPERATOR: OK. But can you see or feel the breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: You can? Good. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here she goes. Is there really not a paramedic around? I`m so scared!
911 OPERATOR: I know. But you`re doing really good. You`re helping her until they get there, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God! Lord, please help me. Aaliya! Aaliya. Why can`t she hear me, ma`am? Did she hit her head that hard? Aaliya? Puke. Honey, puke. Lord, please help me! Please give me the strength to get through this.
911 OPERATOR: OK, is she -- what`s she doing right now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s acting weird. She`s breathing weird. Please get a paramedic here now! Please! If this kid dies in my arms, I cannot live with that! Please get someone here now!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Straight out to Phil Trexler with "The Akron Beacon Journal." What happened?
PHIL TREXLER, "AKRON BEACON JOURNAL": Well, what happened last week, Nancy, was that there was that dramatic 911 call that you just heard. Currently, now the babysitter, Tiffani Calise, is sitting in the county jail charged with murder in connection with the death of a girl who`s not even 2 years old. The case against Calise is going to the grand jury. And meanwhile, the family of this little girl is preparing for her funeral this Sunday.
GRACE: Tell me what you know about the 911 call. Hold on, Phil. Let`s take a listen to it ourselves. Dana, roll the 911 call now.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911. What is the location of your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mayfair (ph) Road.
911 OPERATOR: What`s going on there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was giving the baby a bath. I walked out for a second just to grab a towel. She fell, she bumped her head. And she`s, like, just making noises.
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s limp.
911 OPERATOR: Stay on the line, OK? I`m going to connect you to paramedics.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Somebody please help me!
911 OPERATOR: Emergency.
911 OPERATOR: Stay on the line.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
911 OPERATOR: Dispatch, what is your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need a paramedic, please. My friend -- I was giving my daughter -- or my friend`s daughter a bath. And I walked out the room to grab a towel, and she fell. And I don`t know! I came back in there and she`s all limp.
911 OPERATOR: OK, (DELETED) Mayfair Road?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Apartment 104.
911 OPERATOR: Apartment 104?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: How old is the child?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think -- she`s about to be 2.
911 OPERATOR: Two. OK. And a little girl?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, a little girl.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And she fell in the tub?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. She fell in the tub. (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: OK. Is she conscious?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. Her eyes are going all -- (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: OK, is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think so. She`s making noises.
911 OPERATOR: OK. My partner is already dispatching them, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. I was just trying to lay my daughter down...
911 OPERATOR: OK, are you with her right now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK. And she`s still -- she is not awake, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. Oh, my God, dude, her eyes are different directions! (INAUDIBLE) Please help me!
911 OPERATOR: OK, is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, she`s breathing.
911 OPERATOR: Yes. OK. Is she -- is her breathing completely normal?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t think so. I don`t know. I`m not a doctor. I`m sorry, ma`am.
911 OPERATOR: Does she seem like she`s breathing normally?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I mean, she`s just, like, moaning. She`s totally limp.
911 OPERATOR: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just need a paramedic. Please help me! I just want this kid to be -- oh, my God. I feel so, so bad. Oh, honey!
911 OPERATOR: OK, just stay on with me.
911 OPERATOR: We`ve got a PD unit en route also.
911 OPERATOR: Now put your ear next to her mouth and tell me, do you hear her breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, she`s puking! She`s puking! She puked on me.
911 OPERATOR: OK. That`s very good. Turn her on her side.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turn her on her side?
911 OPERATOR: Yes. If she`s starting to vomit, turn her on her side.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m trying, ma`am. I`m sorry.
911 OPERATOR: That`s OK. You`re doing really good.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Should I pat her back or anything?
911 OPERATOR: No. Just turn her on her side and let her vomit.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining us now, a special guest, Bill Holland, the inspector at the Summit County sheriff`s office. Mr. Holland, thank you for being with us. What does all this say to you? I distinctly heard her in the 911 call, I was trying to lay my little girl down. You mean she left this child in the tub to go put the other child down for a nap?
BILL HOLLAND, INSPECTOR, SUMMIT COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Yes, those were the initial reports, that she had left this child in the bathtub while she went to the closet to retrieve something. And she heard some noises. And when she returned, she found the child unresponsive in the bathtub.
GRACE: But wait a minute. Phil Trexler with "The Akron Beacon Journal," she just said, I just heard her say, I was trying to lay my little girl down.
TREXLER: Yes, that`s right. There`s -- you know, her daughter, who`s 3 years old, was also there. Apparently, this was a play date arranged between Tiffani and...
GRACE: OK, that`s not what I`m talking about.
TREXLER: ... Aaliya`s mother.
GRACE: What I`m saying is, her story to police is that she was trying to go get a towel for Aaliya, the dead baby.
TREXLER: Apparently...
GRACE: And now I hear her on the 911 call say, I was trying to get my little girl to lay down.
TREXLER: Right. I think there was a few things going on in that apartment that night, and that`s one of the things that raised the suspicion of the authorities. When Aaliya was taken to the hospital, they detected some injuries that were not consistent with what Calise is alleging happened in that apartment.
GRACE: Matt Zarrell, what do we know about the actual injuries the hospital is confirming to us tonight?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, the hospital informed police just four hours after she was transferred she had bleeding on her skull and head injuries. That immediately made cops suspicious. They began investigating it further. And they immediately picked her up about a day later and arrested her for felony child endangerment. When they investigated further, they advanced the charges and added murder to it.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Evelyn in Florida. Hi, Evelyn. What do you think?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I`ve been trying to call you ever since your twins were born.
GRACE: Well, thank you for calling, Evelyn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are dolls. They are darling.
GRACE: Thank you. And I can tell you this much. I`m the only one that bathes them because of things just like this. Once in a while, if I absolutely have to, I let my husband do it. But that`s it because ever since the Louise Woodward case, where the nanny, the au pair, claimed the baby, Matty Eappen (ph), fell in the bathroom, uh-uh. Uh-uh. Of course, that`s not what happened. She murdered him.
What do you think about this case, Evelyn?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering, did she drop the little girl accidentally and then try to say that she slipped and fell?
GRACE: Well, what about it? Back to you, Bill Holland. Does dropping a child accidentally -- I don`t think if you`re holding a child and you drop it, say, three feet, is that going to result in severe swelling of the brain?
HOLLAND: Well, you know, that was never the -- that was never the case here. You know, she claimed she had gone to the closet to get something, heard a couple noises, came back and found the child. Now, later that night, about 4:30 in the morning, our detectives received a call from the hospital stating there was bleeding on the brain.
GRACE: For those of you just joining us, a 23-month-old baby girl in the care of a pregnant baby-sitter dies in a bathtub nearly bone dry. Did she beat the baby to death?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her eyes are still going crazy, ma`am.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Can you feel or hear the breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: You can? Good. OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, here she goes! Is there really not a paramedic around? Ma`am, I`m so scared! I`m so scared!
911 OPERATOR: I know. But you`re doing really good. You`re helping her until they get there, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God! Lord, please help me!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: My partner dispatched them. We sent them as soon as your call came in. I know that it seems like it`s taking them a long time to get there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Listen. OK. I want you to check her breathing again one more time. Can you feel the air going in and out?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. She`s breathing really weird, ma`am.
911 OPERATOR: How do you mean weird? What do you mean by weird?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Listen. Listen!
911 OPERATOR: OK. I hear it. OK. Here`s what I`m going to -- I want you to do, OK? Now, listen. Don`t freak out, OK? With her head -- I want you to keep her head carefully tilted back. Pinch her nose closed and completely cover her mouth with your mouth and blow two regular breaths into the lungs.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: For those of you just joining us, a 23-month-old baby girl, baby Aaliya, dies in the hands of a baby-sitter, a pregnant baby-sitter, in the bathtub. But what she actually beaten or shaken to death?
Matt Zarrell, you were trying to tell me the hospital`s findings. But isn`t it true they also determined that that amount of swelling to the brain could not have happened in that short of a time?
ZARRELL: Yes. Sources have told the Akron beacon journal that Aaliya had advanced swelling to the brain, which could only lead them to conclude that the injuries occurred much earlier than when she had called 911. They also believe the injuries are consistent with being violently shaken, which is possibly evidence of shaken baby syndrome.
GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist, joining us out of Denver. Dr. Arnall, explain to me what they`re saying about how you couldn`t have that advanced bleeding to the brain -- excuse me -- swelling to the brain, which I know happens when you shake a baby -- the brain hits against the outer -- the inside of the skull -- in that short of a time, from the 911 call to the time they got the baby at the hospital. The brain could not have swollen that much.
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST : Well, that`s right. The brain hits the inside of the skull. The resulting problem is swelling of the brain, and sometimes bleeding on the surface of the brain. And that bleeding takes a period of time. I haven`t seen the X-rays or the CTs of the head, but the doctors at the hospital may have determined that the appearance of the bleeding or swelling is not consistent with the time period that the defendant has given the police.
GRACE: What do they mean by advanced swelling of the brain? What does advanced mean?
ARNALL: Advanced means severe swelling. There are normally raised areas on the surface of the brain and depressed areas on the surface of the normal brain. When the brain swells, those all flatten out, so that by using a CT scan, the doctors can determine how severe the brain swelling is.
GRACE: And what about the petichia (ph) in the eye? What would that reveal, if the eyes -- the blood vessels in the eyes were hemorrhaged?
ARNALL: If there`s a retinal hemorrhage, that is a finding, bleeding in the retina of the child. That finding is associated with bleeding on the surface of the brain. That finding has been associated with either severe flexion and extension of the -- of the neck and head, so-called shaken baby syndrome, as well as blunt trauma to the head. In this case, apparently, there`s bleeding on the surface of the skull. That may indicate that there`s a hematoma on the surface of the skull...
GRACE: You mean a bruise?
ARNALL: ... to indicate a contusion.
GRACE: A bruise?
ARNALL: A bruise.
GRACE: OK. Dr. Bethany Marshall, what that means to me, what Dr. Arnall is saying -- and he is an expert, Bethany...
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Yes.
GRACE: ... is that that whole 911 call is BS, the whole thing. All the screaming and the hysterics is all BS. She is a liar! Why is she lying?
MARSHALL: Nancy, she had a ferocious, malicious, explosive rage attack. And I think the attack on this child was much more sadistic than we can even imagine. And how many times has she already abused this child until it finally came to this? And she has already concocted a story by the time she calls 911, and two different stories. One is that she went to get a towel. And one is that she laid her little baby down.
This is a very elaborate story. And then when she starts to cry and to say, I can`t live with it if this little baby dies in my arms, what she`s really saying is, I didn`t think I would get caught.
GRACE: Get caught.
MARSHALL: And now I know I`m caught.
GRACE: To Sheryl McCollum, crime scene analyst. What about it, Sheryl?
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME SCENE ANALYST: I agree with the doctor. First of all, the first thing I heard on the 911 call, she`s asking somebody, Help me. God, please help me. She never once asked for help for that child. What they`re going to do, Nancy, is they`re going to, you know, look at her own daughter`s medical records. They`re going to possibly interview the bio father. And they`re going to see if she`s got a history of abuse.
GRACE: And to top it all off, she`s pregnant.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God. She`s puking again. OK. I think she`s coming back because she`s pulling back. No, she stopped.
911 OPERATOR: I want you to do that head tilt like we did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) I need to get it to the side and get it all out of her nose.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: OK, she stopped vomiting, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I think. Now my daughter`s puking. Kai Kai (ph), go away, baby. I`m sorry!
911 OPERATOR: I`ll stay on the line with you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, please do. I can`t do this by myself!
911 OPERATOR: You`re doing really, really good, though. You`re doing good.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn`t -- I really didn`t mean for -- I didn`t mean for her to fall. I just wanted to get a towel! A towel. Oh, my God! There`s (INAUDIBLE) she`s got puke everywhere. You poor thing!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Sharon in Alabama. Hi, Sharon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`d like to let you know that my sister is such a big fan that she broke part of her foot on the same day you did. So there you go.
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Well, I sympathize with her because it really does hurt, especially when I`m trying to chase after the twins on crutches. Go ahead, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, I have two, if you don`t mind.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First of all, I would like to know how many times that she has kept this baby, and also, how long the two mothers had known each other that they would trust each other with their other -- you know, with their own babies.
GRACE: Good question. Phil Trexler, "Akron Beacon Journal," how long have the mothers known each other? How often has she baby-sat? And another thing that occurred to all of us while we were listening to the 911 call -- the call was at 11:00 PM. Who bathes a baby at 11:00 PM at night? Who? Go ahead, Phil.
TREXLER: Well, Tiffani Calise bathes the children at 11:40 PM. My understanding is, is that the children were eating at that time, and there was some sort of mess that was made. So according to her...
GRACE: Eating?
TREXLER: They were eating...
GRACE: At 11:40 PM?
TREXLER: Well, my child doesn`t, but...
GRACE: Did you just say that?
TREXLER: My child doesn`t, but some other children do, apparently.
GRACE: Wait a minute! Put him up! Put up Trexler! Trexler?
TREXLER: Yes?
GRACE: What 23-month-old baby eats at midnight? Do you know of one?
TREXLER: I do not.
GRACE: Well, neither do I. Go ahead.
TREXLER: OK. The story is, though, that they were eating. They made a mess. And then she put them in the tub. Apparently, Aaliya`s mother...
GRACE: Yes, well, that`s a lie. I can say that right now, Phil. That`s a lie. Go ahead.
TREXLER: Apparently, Aaliya`s mother and Tiffani Calise have been friends. They`ve lived together in the same apartment complex for some time. And it was kind of -- their children played together. That`s what was arranged that night, some sort of a play date.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Do you have something to clean up the vomit with?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I got a towel right on her.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: That`s very good. Make sure that there`s nothing in her nose. Help her get it out of her nose and mouth, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Why is she still moaning, ma`am? Why -- is she going to be OK?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: She`s moaning? OK. She`s breathing, right?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I need to calm down, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Yes. You`re doing really good. Just stay calm. OK. Just keep watching for her breathing. If she starts to vomit again, just make sure, you know, you turn her on her side. Is she still laying flat?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. She -- yes. But her breathing is starting to act weird. Her breathing is starting to act weird.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her stomach is going in and out weird. Oh, my god.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Is she starting to vomit again?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. Aaliyah? Aaliyah? Why can`t she hear me, ma`am?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK, listen --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she hit her head that hard?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: 911, what is the location of your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mayfair Road.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: What`s going on there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I -- I was giving the baby a bath. I walked out for a second just to grab a towel. She fell, she bumped her head. And she is, like, just making noises. And limp.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Stay on the line. OK. I`m going to connect you with paramedics.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Somebody, please help me.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Stay on the line.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my god.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls live.
Out to Darrell Gibbs, victim rights advocate now working in the district attorney`s office. His daughter, Cynthia, killed by a babysitter.
Mr. Gibbs, this bio mom must be beside herself that she left the baby with this pregnant babysitter, and now she`s dead. And now cockamamie story.
Darrell, it doesn`t add up. Who feeds their baby at midnight and then gives them a bath? It`s -- no.
DARRELL GIBBS, DAUGHTER CYNTHIA KILLED BY BABYSITTER: Nancy, you are so right. I don`t believe the story --
GRACE: It`s BS.
GIBBS: -- for one moment. Don`t believe it.
GRACE: I`m just sick about it, Darrell. When you think about a little 2-year-old girl. A 2-year-old girl at the whim of this babysitter. There`s nothing the little girl can do back. She`s completely defenseless.
GIBBS: Absolutely. As all infants and young children are. Clearly this child was the victim of shaken baby syndrome. The most violent form of child abuse.
GRACE: Tell me what you think, Darrell.
GIBBS: Clearly this babysitter is not telling the truth. There is much more to what she did to baby Aaliyah.
You know, often in my work, as in our case, babysitters make up these stories. There`s much more to it. I believe that she shook baby Aaliyah and staged this whole story about the bathtub and water and going to get towels. And putting her own child down.
GRACE: To Marc Klaas, president and founder of KlaasKids Foundation. Marc, even in her 911 call she can`t keep her story straight.
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, that`s absolutely true. But I kind of disagree with everybody and think that there is real fear in her voice, having realized the -- having realized what she`s done and what she`s facing as a result of that.
GRACE: So basically, I`m not sorry I got caught but I`m sorry -- I`m not sorry I did it but I`m sorry I`m going to hell for it? Sorry I got caught?
I got you. She`s scared all right because, as Sheryl McCollum points out, she keeps saying help me. Help me. God, help me. What about the baby? The baby that`s dying.
KLAAS: No --
GRACE: And -- what, go ahead, Marc.
KLAAS: Well, clearly the baby has been murdered and clearly she has to face the punishment for having committed that heinous crime against that poor little baby.
GRACE: You`re seeing the video of Tiffani Calise, the babysitter, pregnant herself. Her story makes no sense to me.
Unleash the lawyers. Trial lawyer, defense attorney Renee Rockwell, veteran trial lawyer out of New York. Alex Sanchez.
What about it, Renee? What`s your defense?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I completely disagree with everybody. Why do you think that could not be --
GRACE: Hold on. No, no, no. Don`t speak until you can get your microphone straight. Go, Alex. What do you think? Renee, fix your microphone.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I am -- I am not so clear that this child was -- you know, just murdered. I mean, the injuries are consistent with the shaken baby syndrome. But they may be consistent with something else.
Now if that child fell and hit the faucet and hit the side of the tub and the head is twisting and then hit the floor, you know, it`s possible that these injuries could be consistent with that type of a fall.
Of course, the lawyers are going to argue this point and demand the medical records. But this could be challenged. I don`t think it`s quite as clear as what everybody thinks it is at this point.
GRACE: Really? You know what? To say that she was getting a towel, then to say in the 911 call she was trying to put her baby down, then say she heard a thud and the brain swelling is so advanced it couldn`t possibly have happened that way?
Renee, weigh in.
ROCKWELL: Well, if I might, Nancy, I want to agree with nobody except Sanchez. This is clearly an accident. This is not a murder. You can listen to what she`s saying.
What is going to be interesting, though, is if she sits down with the investigators before her lawyer puts a stop to it and gives an inconsistent story. Remember, she -- she said it to the initial dispatch. Then she said something to the paramedic.
Her story is changing little by little. It does sound like that she put the child somewhere and allowed the child to fall. All I see in this is a reckless endangerment. Not a murder charge.
GRACE: Really? Then how do you explain the bleeding to the brain and the advanced brain swelling that couldn`t possibly have happened the way she said it?
I`m going to give you two defense lawyers a moment to think up an answer for that one.
Out to the lines, Lynn in South Carolina, hi, Lynn.
LYNN, CALLER FROM SOUTH CAROLINA: Hi, Nancy. I just want to tell you that we love you and we are so glad you were blessed with your twins.
GRACE: You know, I am, too. I`m telling you, God heard my prayers. He answered them 10,000 times over. And now that they are talking and making sentences of sorts, it`s -- every day is better and better.
And I think about them, Lynn in South Carolina, so tiny. What it would be like if they were with a babysitter like this.
LYNN: What I don`t understand is, do these parents not investigate the people that they`re leaving their children with?
GRACE: You know what? I think a lot of times they`re lulled into a sense of security because they think they know the person.
What about it, Dr. Bethany?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, I think that`s true. And I think that`s what the panel`s responding to. Marc Klaas says she`s fearful. Other people are saying no, this is purposeful.
Just because she`s panicking and frightened doesn`t mean she also has regard and concern for this child. Those are two different things. And people with personality disorders can be enraged one moment and calm the next. And that`s why the other mom got seduced.
GRACE: OK, everybody. We are switching gears very quickly. I want to take you live to another story. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Twenty-nine-year-old Shaquan Duley.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Confessed to killing those two children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How you doing, ma`am?
SHAQUAN DULEY, ACCUSED OF KILLING HER CHILDREN: I`m OK, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say she admitted smothering her 2-year- old and 18-month-old boys with her own hands.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Their causes of death are asphyxiation due to strangulation.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And was charged with two counts of murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The type of call we responded to was an auto accident.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: All right. Are the people that were in the car, did they get out or they`re still in the car?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The driver got out. But the kids -- the kids are still in there.
GRACE: The car was found in neutral with the ignition on.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The story they got from Shaquan Duley was not the truth. The sheriff says Duley and her mother got into an argument the day before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think she was fed up with her mother telling her that she couldn`t take care of the children or she wasn`t taking care of the children. And she just wanted to be free.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls right now. The very latest on the so-called murder mom.
To Jean Casarez. I understand that murder mom first says that she was too broke to support these children. But now we know she was living in a motel and paying with hundred dollar bills, cash?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": That`s right. That`s right. The motel cost money.
You know, Nancy, this is a woman that has been charged with first- degree murder. The death penalty can be brought. But everyone is talking about and the focus is what a good mother she was.
GRACE: Special guest joining us now, David Smith. We all remember Susan Smith who drowned their sons.
David Smith, I hate that this happened so close to you geographically. Only about 100 miles away. Weigh in on what we are learning tonight.
DAVID SMITH, EX-WIFE SUSAN SMITH DROWNED THEIR TWO SONS: Well, I just -- I hated to hear -- when I first heard about this story, you know, my first reaction was, you know, not another, you know, mom drowning her children.
But then I just -- my second reaction was, you know, sadness. And heartfelt compassion first for the children and then for the people -- the loved ones that are going to be left behind to deal with this.
GRACE: David, in your case, when did you first realize your wife Susan was lying about drowning the boys?
SMITH: When I heard the announcement on national television like the rest of America.
GRACE: So that`s when you first found out? You believed her the whole time?
SMITH: Yes. One hundred percent, the whole time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Winuka Patel (ph) handed over the keys to Shaquan Duley to Trumps Inns room 31. She could tell Duley was scared of something when she asked to rent a room.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She seemed strange to me, you know. She give me the $100 bill. You know. When I try to give her the (INAUDIBLE), she just take the money, she didn`t count it and she just ran up.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Back to David Smith. His ex- wife, Susan Smith, drowned their two sons.
David, I can`t imagine what must have run through your head when you heard about this case.
Everyone, we are about to show you photos from inside the home.
David, a lot of people -- everybody, that is the motel room where the mom allegedly smothered the little boys and then went about this elaborate ruse, pretending they were drowned.
To David Smith, this mom apparently just wanted to be free. Wanted to be single. Does that bring back memories of Susan Smith?
SMITH: Oh, definitely. I mean, you know, Susan wanted to be free of Michael and Alex also. So it definitely, you know, brings back memories and stirring is up emotions again.
GRACE: We also learned that there were defensive wounds on this murder mom. In other words, at least one of the little boys fought, fought, struggled to live, and mommy suffocated him anyway.
But in your case, the children were strapped in a car seat. They never had that chance to struggle. Do you think the death penalty is appropriate in this case, David?
SMITH: You know, Nancy, I really try to stay out of that part of these situations. I mean, I guess to me that`s something for the district attorneys or, you know, their lawyers to decide that. I really don`t really -- I try to stay neutral on that aspect.
GRACE: I understand. Back to Jean Casarez. How do we know that the little boys struggled to save their own lives?
CASAREZ: Well, this would be the autopsy. Those defensive wounds. And it was on the older son. The one that was almost 3 years old. He is the one that struggled and fought so hard to live.
GRACE: Now, Jean, the mom is actually blaming her own mother for all of this?
CASAREZ: But it leads to the prosecutor`s motive. Because they had an argument before -- the night before this all happened. But it looks like the motive that we see in the Casey Anthony case.
The prosecutors will have a competition between mother and grandmother and a jealousy because the grandmother may have been more of the mother than the mother herself.
GRACE: Those two photos were obtained from the funeral home of the little boys. Investigators say she suffocated them and dumped them in the river.
To the lines, Chari, California. Hi, Chari.
CHARI, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Nancy, I love your show and I think you do a great job for all these people.
GRACE: Well, thank you. And thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?
CHARI: My first question is, did this mom have any mental health issues?
GRACE: Good question. What do we know about that, Jean Casarez?
CASAREZ: Psychological tests are going to start. And that is definitely I think where the defense is going to go in this case. And there is so much empathy for this woman. But, Nancy, the aggravating factors are immense.
GRACE: Empathy? I don`t have any empathy for her. I don`t know where you got that empathy thing from?
CASAREZ: I`m hearing it. I`m hearing it. From the sheriff`s department to investigators to the people in the community.
GRACE: OK. Renee Rockwell, Alex Sanchez, is that her only hope, Renee, to claim insanity?
ROCKWELL: Nancy, some acts themselves are so ridiculously unexplainable that they seem crazy. But you`re not going to get -- you`ll see it. You`ll see a mental defense. But you`re not going to see anybody being able to prove that she`s risen to the level she didn`t know what she was doing.
GRACE: Sanchez?
SANCHEZ: No, she`s not going to go for a sanity defense. She`s going to go for a mitigation defense, which simply means they`re going to try to establish that she has some type of long-term psychiatric problems which led to this tragic event. And hopefully she will end up with a lesser penalty.
GRACE: Out to the line, Erica in Texas, hi, Erica.
ERICA, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Hi. I have a question.
GRACE: OK.
ERICA: And it`s really bothering me because I see your news a lot. Why is it that women that do this to their kids -- what are they thinking when they do that? I mean, you`re supposed to be a mom. You know you`re supposed to love the kids and support them and everything. Why are you going to go and have kids and do that?
GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, you know what, you can explain that better than me because to me, people always say, what`s the motive in a case like this? There is no motive. There`s no motive in a child killing.
MARSHALL: Well, Erica already answered her own question. Most mothers love their children and this mother was not maternally bonded. She wanted the children out of the way.
I would wonder, did she have a love interest or a boyfriend she wanted to spend time with? I would not look at this through the lens of mental illness. I think she was mad at her mother, did not want to be a mother.
And if she had the energy to get rid of the kids, why didn`t she have the energy to get a job and to better her life? That`s what I would look at.
GRACE: To Sheryl McCollum, what can we prove? You`re the cold case expert. What can we prove from the scene?
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST, DIR. OF COLD CASE SQUAD AT PINE LAKE P.D.: We can prove that this was not quick. She got in a car, she drove to a motel, she paid for the room, she got the key, she -- you know, she killed two children in that room.
Took two dead children, strapped them in their car seats, drove around looking for a dump site. She puts the car in neutral once she gets to the ramp, lets the car go in. And then walks.
Not to the nearest house for help. Not anywhere else for help. But way on down the road because she doesn`t have a cell phone or anything else.
This is not an insanity. She knew darn well what she was doing. It took her more than 24 hours to plan it and carry it out. At the scene if they have not cleaned the room, they can get DNA off the pillow cases.
GRACE: And, Dr. Michael Arnall, it`s a simple matter to determine if a child drowned. Obviously, they did not.
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Right. They`re going to look for bruises inside the muscles of the neck or lacerations inside the lips to see whether these children had injury to the neck or mouth.
GRACE: To the lines, Pat in Massachusetts. Hi, Pat.
PAT, CALLER FROM MASSACHUSETTS: Hi, how are you, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
PAT: Listen, I was just wondering, I know sometimes we have cases where a husband will kill a child to get back at the mom. I`m just looking at this and I`m wondering, is it possible -- nothing to do with her being broke or unemployed, but was she doing this to get back at her mom?
It just seems like she was doing this to spite her mom.
GRACE: You know what, that`s interesting.
Dr. Bethany, a lot of people have determined that in the Casey Anthony case.
MARSHALL: Usually when a parent kills a child, it`s to get back at another caretaker. And that`s what I think happened in this case.
GRACE: Everybody, as we go to break, happy 27th birthday to California friend, Jodi. She never misses a show. She`s also on crutches with a broken foot like me.
Happy birthday, Jodi.
And congratulations to New York friend, veteran defense attorney Richard Herman, after battling and beating leukemia, he ties the knot in Hawaii with new bride Alyiissa. He says he wouldn`t have made it without your thoughts and prayers and over 15,000 e-mails from friends of the show.
Congratulations, Richard and Alyiissa.
Happy anniversary, 50th, to Georgia friends, Dr. Jack and Barbara Hanberry. They met at school at New Orleans Theological Seminary. Dr. Hanberry went on to be warden and chief of chaplains for Atlanta`s prison system. They are celebrating this weekend with their children Scott and Cindy and five grandchildren.
What an inspiration. Happy anniversary.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It was here that Orangeburg County Sheriff Larry Williams says Duley killed her 18-month and 2-year-old sons.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The manner in this case would be homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Right now this case, it could qualify for the death penalty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The older one did have a few defense wounds, indicators that he, too, was struggling.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Back to David Smith. His wife -- ex-wife Susan Smith drowned their two sons. In much the same manner as this ruse.
What is that father going through, David Smith?
SMITH: You know, he`s going to have a very hard, long road ahead of him. You know, a lot of depression. He just needs to know that he don`t - - he doesn`t need to be afraid to ask for help, to seek help and know it`s going to be a very tough, tough road ahead of him.
GRACE: David Smith, to this day, all these years later, do you still remember the last moments you were with your boys?
SMITH: You know, I really don`t. I still to this day, Nancy, I have very few memories of, you know, times that I had with Michael and Alex. You know, I`ve been told that my body`s self-defense mechanism -- that I`m just not ready to remember it yet. And so I just -- you know, it kind of bothers me, but I know when my mind`s ready, it will let me.
GRACE: David Smith, so many people still praying for you.
Everyone, let`s stop and remember Marine Corporal Kelly Matt Cannan, 21, Lowville, New York, killed Iraq. On a third tour, awarded the Purple Heart, Combat Action, Global War on Terrorism Service.
With a smile that lit up a room. Loves Syracuse basketball, New York Yankees, Miami Dolphins, NASCAR. Favorite driver Tony Stewart. Leaves behind mother Diane, sister Jennifer, nephew named after him.
Kelly Matt Cannan, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially you. And I want to thank you so much for supporting our new book "Death on the D-List." You made it a "New York Times" best seller. My proceeds go to a Methodist home for the handicapped.
I can`t thank you enough.
And happy birthday to one of our stars. Dave, aka hot chocolate. Handsome.
And a little 4-year-old Florida boy Ayden in the fight of a lifetime battling spinal cancer. During surgery doctors removed 30 percent of the tumor. He has no feeling in his leg. Now tonight Ayden and his family need your help. For info go to Ayden.com.
I`ll see you tomorrow night, everyone. 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
