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Nancy Grace
Tommy Croslin Attorney Says Haleigh Was Strangled
Aired August 20, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Satsuma, Florida, a 5- year-old girl tucked into bed. Five hours later, she`s gone. Daddy comes home from the night shift to find not a trace of little Haleigh. The last person to see her alive, new stepmother Misty Croslin, who flunked four polygraphs. Haleigh`s father, Ronald Cummings, and stepmother Croslin booked on drug trafficking. Search teams, cadaver dogs, scuba divers all comb the St. John`s River as the search for Haleigh`s body and a murder weapon goes on.
Tonight, did Croslin finally crack? Her attorney in the halls of the courthouse reveals explosive allegation the last night Haleigh seen alive, she`s assaulted, screaming, kidnapped, carried away in a black bag. A van door slides open, slams shut, and drives away in the night. But can Croslin and even her lawyer be believed? Do we finally have answers?
Bombshell tonight: A lawyer for Croslin`s brother now gives up the COD -- cause of death. He says Haleigh strangled. Haleigh`s own grandmother says she`s not buying the story. Tonight, what happened to 5-year-old Haleigh?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FLORA HOLLARS, MISTY`S GRANDMOTHER: She heard Haleigh in there crying.
GRACE: ... carried away in a black bag.
HOLLARS: She grabbed Junior and got in the bed, and they covered up their heads completely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... brutal attack...
HOLLARS: And when she took the covers off of her head, Haleigh was gone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can you be under the covers and also see her in the bag?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A horrifying new story emerges about Haleigh Cummings.
MISTY CROSLIN, HALEIGH`S BABY-SITTER: They`re going to know. They`re going to know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: None of it makes sense.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Misty Croslin, the last one to see the missing girl, now claims the child was violently attacked.
MISTY CROSLIN: When I woke up, she was gone!
HOLLARS: Those three grandkids of mine is involved in this, and I don`t know why!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn`t do (EXPLETIVE DELETED). That`s my story, I`m sticking to it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... and saw Overstreet put Haleigh in a black bag.
JOE OVERSTREET, MISTY`S COUSIN: I didn`t do it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All three are pointing the finger at each other.
HANK CROSLIN, MISTY`S FATHER: And don`t be making up no stories.
MISTY CROSLIN: I was, like, Oh, my God.
HANK CROSLIN: You tell them where Haleigh is. Bring Haleigh home.
MISTY CROSLIN: I can`t just bring her home, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And breaking tonight, live, rural Oregon. Stepmommy walks a 7-year-old boy down the hall of his elementary school. He`s never seen again. Police insist that stepmommy take a second poly. In a stunning twist, 7-year-old Kyron`s dad files for divorce in secret. The court slams stepmommy Terri Horman with an emergency order to stay away from her own children. Bio mom pleads for stepmommy Horman to please, please help police.
In another bizarre twist, we learn stepmommy tries to hire a hit man to murder Kyron`s father, her husband, and carries on a torrid sex affair after Kyron goes missing, even sending X-rated photos to the lover.
Breaking tonight. Police try their best to ID an accomplice spotted in stepmommy`s truck the day Kyron goes missing and now investigating a third accomplice. We learn stepmommy so concerned about police tapping her home, she goes out in the yard to talk, even has friends use disposable cell phones. If she`s so innocent, what`s there to hide?
Now her friends refuse lie detector tests. And also, somebody tell me where does stepmommy Terri Horman get nearly a half a million dollars cash? How -- how -- does a 7-year-old boy go missing from his own elementary school classroom?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kyron`s disappearance involves criminal behavior.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators have focused intently on Kyron`s stepmother, Terri Horman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... Dede Spicher...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dede Spicher is a very close friend of Terri Horman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s become a new focus of the Kyron investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... Dede Spicher...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) developments, the woman the Hormans say refuses to cooperate with the search for their son, Kyron...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... that mother`s friend...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dede Spicher, one of Kyron`s stepmom`s friends, was gardening the day Kyron vanished.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s obviously very suspicious.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... significant process...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) opinion, I hope Terri Horman is arrested. And her friends that are involved, they need to speak up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We love you, Kyron.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know if Terri is hiding something? Were you with her on June 4th?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The key date is June 4th.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Never give up hope! We are all coming to get you to bring you home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. A lawyer for Misty Croslin`s brother reveals COD -- cause of death. He says little Haleigh was strangled.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So many stories. Whatever it is, it needs to be proven.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She hears Haleigh screaming.
GRACE: ... screaming...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... the night the little girl vanished...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... a black bag...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... black bag...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... tossed her in a black bag...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She peeked out from underneath the cover at the last minute and saw this black bag.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why would you hide and let a little 5-year-old scream like that? You know, how can the neighbors not hear her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone thinks she did it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... could hear the 5-year-old girl screaming...
TOMMY CROSLIN: I wonder why she`s making up (EXPLETIVE DELETED). She probably knows something.
MISTY CROSLIN: I don`t have the answer. I`m not (INAUDIBLE) It`s not me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has absolutely no credibility.
RONALD CUMMINGS, HALEIGH`S FATHER: If I find whoever has my daughter before y`all do, I`m killing them.
CRYSTAL SHEFFIELD, HALEIGH`S MOTHER: I just want whoever took her to let her go!
CUMMINGS: I know somebody took my little girl!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t believe anything that Misty says.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If it turns out to be the truth, I think they should hang her, you know, like an old-fashioned hanging in the square kind of thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: As the public now demanding a public hanging for Misty Croslin, do we finally know the true COD -- cause of death? Out to Art Harris, investigative journalist, Artharris.com. We`re taking your calls. Art, what do we know tonight?
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Nancy, for the first time, Tommy Croslin has revealed the cause of death, says that the night he was at the trailer, his cousin Joe strangled Haleigh. That`s what his lawyer says Tommy Croslin, his client, told police in April. Now, it`s just coming out officially by his lawyer, but that raises a whole new -- a whole new chapter...
GRACE: Hold on. Put Harris up! It raises a whole new what?
HARRIS: It raises -- it opens a whole new chapter, Nancy, in this...
GRACE: Well, I`ll tell you...
HARRIS: ... in this very sad tale.
GRACE: ... what it raises to me, a big red flag that he`s waited this long to tell it, if it`s the truth! That`s what I don`t get about this whole bunch. They`re all, in my mind, lying. And another thing. What can you tell me about the allegation that Misty Croslin slept every night with a gun under her pillow?
OK, you know what? I will analyze that with a shrink later.
HARRIS: I can tell you, Nancy, that...
GRACE: But assuming it`s true, why didn`t she shoot the hell out of the guy that was hurting the baby?
HARRIS: Well, Nancy, I`m going to report on Artharris.com, Misty slept with this pistol under her pillow. But that night, she didn`t have it. She told her grandmother, Flora Hollars, and her lawyer that had she had it, she would have shot Tommy, and that would have been...
GRACE: Oh, really. Why that night...
HARRIS: Well, if you believe that...
GRACE: ... Art? Why that night of all nights? What was different about that night?
HARRIS: Well, that night -- apparently, Ronald had gotten his guns out of the trailer. Once his pistol had been stolen by cousin Joe. That was the story the family told me. And then Joe got it...
GRACE: Now, I`m worried about you. I`m worried about you, Art, because I really think, after all the stories you`ve covered, the big reporter with "The Washington Post," blah, blah, I think you`re starting to believe these people! I really think you`re buying into their BS!
HARRIS: Nancy, you know, since you don`t have the criminal lawyers or defense lawyers here, I`ve got to tell you what they said on the record. Now, that`s -- that`s for your viewers. This is what they are saying, the key suspects are saying, Nancy. And it`s going to be a very important turn of events. Werter -- Jim Werter says he didn`t -- you know, he didn`t let Tommy speak any further to investigators because he didn`t get a proffer of immunity. He thinks that Tommy might have revealed more.
GRACE: Hey, so now, still with no proffer of immunity, he just blurts it out? That doesn`t make sense. That doesn`t make sense, especially for the lawyer. I could see an inmate behind bars blurting something out, not thinking. But the lawyer to blurt it out when he says he didn`t say it before because he didn`t have immunity for his client, but now he blabs it to a reporter? Uh-uh! No! Something smells.
And another thing, Art Harris. Let`s nail it down. If this is the COD -- cause of death -- when did the strangling happen?
HARRIS: It would have happened, according to Tommy, right at the trailer after he busts in. Misty reports that Joe manhandles her sexually, gropes her, then looks for the -- can`t find the machine gun he`s there to try to steal, grabs Haleigh. She hears her screaming, and then there`s silence, Nancy, and...
GRACE: So you`re saying right then, before she leaves the home. And so...
HARRIS: Before she leaves the home...
GRACE: ... Tommy Croslin says after he strangles the baby, he just rides shotgun? He just hops in the van and goes along?
HARRIS: And he holds the door.
GRACE: Who wants to be in a car with a dead body?
HARRIS: He holds the door, Nancy, and that`s...
GRACE: OK, right there -- you know what? I almost can`t take it anymore because it`s such BS. If I didn`t want to find out what happened to Haleigh, I wouldn`t even hear it. But everything they say, Art, leads us to another clue. So you`re right, we do have to report it. We do have to find out about it because in the end, we`re going to piece this thing together.
Let me ask you this, Jean Casarez. So the new story is Tommy Croslin goes for a ride with a dead body? I don`t think so, Casarez.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, this is what Tommy`s attorney is trying to do. He`s trying to show someone that Tommy`s story and Misty`s story corroborate each other.
GRACE: I know that`s what he`s doing. You`re right, Jean. With me right now out of Nashville, Tennessee, both Croslins, Misty and Tommy Croslin`s grandmother, Flora Hollars. Ms. Hollars, thank you for being with us. What do you make of this story?
FLORA HOLLARS, MISTY`S GRANDMOTHER (via telephone): Well, Nancy (INAUDIBLE) remember back in April is when Tommy told me on the telephone that Joe had did it, on a Saturday. And on a Monday is when Misty called me and told me that -- at that time, she told me he had wrapped her up with yellow rope and had...
GRACE: What do you make of the story...
HOLLARS: (INAUDIBLE) and dropped her into the river. (INAUDIBLE) Tommy`s getting scared and he`s ready to come clean.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HANK CROSLIN: Don`t be holding nothing back from nobody.
MISTY CROSLIN: Daddy, I`m not.
HANK CROSLIN: Just get it out there. Let it out, man. Tell the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is Croslin finally opening up about Haleigh Cummings`s disappearance?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All along, she`s saying she didn`t know anything.
MISTY CROSLIN: I don`t know where she is.
I`m not hiding anything.
I don`t.
SHEFFIELD: They`re doing the best then can. But do I believe my daughter`s dead? No. And until they show me something, I won`t. Deep in my heart, I know she`s out there. And nobody knows the pain that I go through. Nobody!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, I`m going to call it a homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know what happened to Haleigh? Her answer, No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The attorney says Croslin was hiding under a blanket but could hear the 5-year-old girl screaming.
HANK CROSLIN: Whatever you know, you need to tell them.
MISTY CROSLIN: Daddy, I am. It`s not my fault they don`t listen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can you be under the covers and also see her in the bag?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... and saw Overstreet put Haleigh in a black bag.
CUMMINGS: I just want my daughter back!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re hoping to make an arrest in this case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When she first told the story about the night Haleigh went missing, she said the back door was propped open with a cinderblock.
911 OPERATOR: You said your back door was wide open?
MISTY CROSLIN: Yes, it was a brick, like, with a brick on the floor.
HOLLARS: The first thing that I was told was that Joe had killed her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s so many people talking.
HOLLARS: I don`t even know whether she was dead when she hit the water or not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the lines. Do we finally know a cause of death? Now, according to someone inside the home the night Haleigh goes missing, that COD is strangulation. These stories are piling up, but can anybody make sense of them?
Out to the lines. Anne, Mississippi. Hi, Anne.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How`re you doing, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good to hear you, Nancy Grace. Oh! And your panel, God bless you all. First of all, did I just hear Misty Croslin say nobody knows the pain she`s going through?
GRACE: I think you...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What about the biological...
GRACE: ... might have heard that. I think you may have heard that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What about the biological mother losing her daughter? I believe that Misty will never know the pain that the mother is going through. OK, now, let`s use common sense here. I don`t believe anything Misty Croslin has to say, ever. With that said, if the story about the cousin putting baby Haleigh in a black bag is true, why is it just coming out now?
GRACE: That`s what I don`t understand. Now, everybody keeps saying they tried, they tried to tell cops that night. But play back the original 911 call, Dana. I want to hear what she said originally. Nobody said anything about a strangulation, a black bag, a van, nothing, Anne in Mississippi, not a word. Dana, do you have it yet?
Jean Casarez, remember the first 911 call? And why did it take these people so long to tell the truth?
CASAREZ: Well, this is what we`re hearing, that she told investigators in January. Her sentencing is coming up, though, Nancy. Substantial assistance?
GRACE: Take a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?
MISTY CROSLIN: Hi. I just woke, up and our back door was wide open and I can`t find my daughter.
911 OPERATOR: You can`t find what?
MISTY CROSLIN: Our daughter.
911 OPERATOR: OK. When did you last see her?
MISTY CROSLIN: We just, like -- you know, it was (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: You said your back door was wide open?
MISTY CROSLIN: Yes. It was a brick, like, it was a brick on the floor. Like, when I went to sleep, it was not like that.
911 OPERATOR: OK. The back door -- listen to me. Your back door was wide open. What are you talking about a brick?
MISTY CROSLIN: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: What -- what is the brick?
MISTY CROSLIN: It`s on the back door, on the stairs. Like, we have a walkway.
911 OPERATOR: And there was a brick laying there?
MISTY CROSLIN: Yes, it`s still there.
911 OPERATOR: Was your back door locked, do you know?
MISTY CROSLIN: Yes. The back door always stays locked.
911 OPERATOR: Does the door look like it was pried open? Does it look like it -- does it look like you had some sort of someone try to enter into your house?
MISTY CROSLIN: Hold on.
911 OPERATOR: And another thing, make sure you and your husband don`t touch the door anymore. Don`t mess with the door or anything.
MISTY CROSLIN: No, it doesn`t.
911 OPERATOR: It doesn`t look like it is?
MISTY CROSLIN: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Out to the attorneys. Unleash the lawyers. Renee Rockwell, Atlanta, Alex Sanchez, New York. Renee, you know, I listened very carefully. I`ve read the transcripts. I don`t hear anything in her 911 call about a black bag or a strangulation. Did you?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. And Nancy...
GRACE: No!
ROCKWELL: ... she could say I did it and nobody would believe her.
GRACE: I`d believe her.
ROCKWELL: I suspect -- well...
GRACE: It`s one thing I`d believe.
ROCKWELL: But anyway, you`re not going to go to court with that. Nobody`s going to do anything until they find physical evidence because there`s been so many stories. One more polygraph? I say that`s a waste of time.
GRACE: Sanchez?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, the case is incredibly frustrating because of the reasons that you brought up. If she could not fend off this attacker, then how come she didn`t call the police and report immediately what happened? But I`ll tell you one thing. You brought this up, too. Tommy Croslin`s attorney revealing that Tommy Croslin was there and held the door open -- he may have helped build a case against his own client!
GRACE: He really did. But the problem is, you can`t ask a client if they take the stand -- you cannot ask the defendant about statements their lawyer made to the press.
SANCHEZ: No. No. But the lawyer could be called as a witness against his own client. Did your client tell you that he was there that night and helped escape with the body?
GRACE: Well, and another issue on that is, Sheryl McCollum, crime analyst, director of cold case squad, Pine Lake PD -- the problem with the lawyer blurting out the cause of death, according to his client, is that he`s now broken the attorney/client privilege.
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST: Yes, he has.
GRACE: Now anybody can be -- it`s not protected anymore.
MCCOLLUM: That`s right.
GRACE: What do you make of these latest statements, Sheryl McCollum?
MCCOLLUM: Nancy, there`s so many problems here. She`s saying now and Tommy is saying now, Well, the van door was closed and Haleigh was never seen again. But that van was returned, which means whoever drove that child somewhere returned to that house. Then (INAUDIBLE) You know, there`s the brick. The brick. She wants to talk about the brick. She was very clear on that. That`s called staging. She`s a liar. She has lied to everybody.
GRACE: I think the reason the stories are so conflicting is that they all are involved. Quick break. We`re taking your calls.
But I want to take this chance to thank you. Thank you for supporting our new book, "Death on the D-List." You made it a "New York Times" best seller. My proceeds going to a Methodist home for the handicapped, and I cannot thank you enough.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MISTY CROSLIN: I didn`t do anything with that little girl!
OVERSTREET: I didn`t do it.
TOMMY CROSLIN: I had nothing to do with none of that crap.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New information from the last known person to see Haleigh Cummings.
MISTY CROSLIN: I woke up, she was gone!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The woman baby-sitting Haleigh Cummings the night she disappeared changing her story.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Misty Croslin believes that Joe Overstreet, her cousin, was looking for a gun, a machine gun that belonged to Haleigh`s father, but couldn`t find it that night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Overstreet couldn`t find it, she claims he took Haleigh instead.
MISTY CROSLIN: They`re going to know.
I just got to wait until I can -- my lawyer is ready.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Wanda in Georgia. Hi, Wanda.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, hey, Nancy. I`m from your hometown.
GRACE: Well, hello. Thank you for calling in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to make a statement about...
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... Ronald Cummings, first of all. Remember the 911 call, where the only thing you hear him saying in the background is that, They took my little girl or who took my little girl? It`s never, Where is she? So that tells me, first of all, he knows that something`s not kosher. And I really believe that he knows a lot more than what he`s come out with and he`s not nearly as innocent as he wants people to think he is.
And he didn`t appear to be too distraught when he was in the car with Misty, the last person to see his daughter alive, while the two of them were dealing drugs. I really -- I really think -- he may not have had anything to do with the killing or whatever himself, but I guarantee you he knows who did it.
GRACE: What do you think, Dr. Bethany?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, Wanda`s right. He knew something was up. Otherwise, why would he have called the house close to something like 90 times that night? And Wanda`s also right in that in every story, there`s a little admission. Ron knows someone stole the child. Misty screams. Joe Overstreet steals something. Tom rides in the van. If you really listen to the stories, they`re all putting their foot deeper and deeper into the situation.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Susan in California. Hi, Susan.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy? Hello?
GRACE: Yes? What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This Nancy?
GRACE: Yes, it is. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, God! I`ve been waiting a year-and-a-half to talk to you!
GRACE: Well, thank you for calling in, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love you and love your kids and everything.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh! My question is, is everybody looking at the eyes on everybody?
GRACE: OK, what do you mean by that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Look at everybody`s eyes. You can tell who`s lying and who`s not.
GRACE: What do you think, Dr. Bethany? Is that possible?
MARSHALL: Well, when I look at their eyes, I see people who are opiate addicts, that`s what I see, the nose scratching, the lip licking. I see that they`re all high, so I wouldn`t place much stock in, you know, where they`re looking when they`re talking.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Terri, do you know where Kyron is?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Terri Horman has been under intense scrutiny since Kyron disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Can you please tell the world something?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A new lead prompts a massive search.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Authorities handed out flyers here with Dede Spicher`s picture on it and Terri Horman`s picture on it.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stepmom and her friend unaccounted for for several key hours that fateful day.
KAINE HORMAN, FATHER OF MISSING 7-YR-OLD BOY, KYRON HORMAN: We don`t know where he is. And we need to keep looking.
DESIREE YOUNG, MOTHER OF MISSING 7-YR-OLD BOY, KYRON HORMAN: I don`t know that I`m getting through it. I know that I just -- I`m trying to take it each day at a time.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A witness claims Terri displayed some odd behavior during an encounter the day Kyron went missing.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Holes in Terri Horman`s timeline.
HORMAN: Come forward. Bring it forward. It may be uncomfortable.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They believe that Terri Horman has these answers.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The parents believe that perhaps Terri might be stashing the boy. The father thinks that perhaps she`s executing a plot.
HORMAN: Put yourself in his shoes for two minutes. Makes you really emotional, I mean. He`s afraid.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: You know I don`t understand it. Out to you, Ellie Jostad. The mom is so worried police are tapping her home, that she goes out into the yard to have conversations with stepmom?
If she`s innocent what does she care if police hear her talking about what she`s cooking for dinner or what time she has to go to work or whatever? Who cares?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Well, this is coming from Dede Spicher. Now that`s the friend of the stepmom`s. She`s the woman who`s on that flyer with the stepmom Terri Horman that they were passing out to residents saying, did you see these two women that morning?
Now Spicher says that she stayed with Terri Horman, the stepmom, for 11 days and she says that whenever they wanted to talk about something they would go out into the yard because they assumed that they were being surveilled.
GRACE: To CW Jensen, retired Portland police captain. You know, CW, I don`t buy it. Who, if they don`t have anything to hide, gets their friends to all buy disposable cell phones like terrorists and drug dealers use?
And who goes out in the front yard to talk? I don`t buy it. And now we`ve got these text messages. I`ve got them right here in my hands where she`s writing her alleged lover, who becomes her lover right after the little boy goes missing -- you can see where her head was.
That she paid her lawyer 350 grand -- $350,000. Now where did she get nearly $500,000, CW Jensen?
CW JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Well, what most people believe is that her parents, who were involved in the educational system in a town in southern Oregon, have some money.
Generally, I would assume that when people are in this kind of a situation, they go to friends. They go to relatives. And I believe that probably the parents are giving her some money.
Does she need all $350,000 right now? Probably not but she needs a lot to keep this thing going. And why do you go outside to talk to people? It`s because you`re guilty.
GRACE: You know, the other thing, now we learn that the best friend Dede Spicher refuses to take a polygraph.
Why, Jensen? Why? Even if I was afraid I`d flunk it because I was nervous and whatever -- although we know that everybody is nervous when you take a polygraph, everybody. Even if you`re telling the truth. That does not affect a polygraph just being nervous.
She refuses a polygraph. Why?
JENSEN: I`m sure that her attorney has told her don`t cooperate with the police in that kind of a thing. Don`t take a polygraph. It`s just going to make you look that much worse.
So she has an attorney. She knows that they`re looking at her. Everybody in the community knows.
GRACE: Why would a polygraph make her look that much worse, CW? I don`t agree. I mean, yes, you`re saying that`s what the lawyer said. But to me your willingness to take a polygraph would show you have nothing to hide.
JENSEN: Well, I think that if people have nothing to hide, in my experience as an investigator, they take polygraphs. There`s one reason why you don`t want to take it. It`s because you think you`re going to look bad.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Adrian in Illinois, hi, Adrian.
ADRIAN, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi, Nancy. How are you doing?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
ADRIAN: Well, for one, I`m sorry to hear about your foot.
GRACE: Thank you.
ADRIAN: And I was wondering. You know, I think Terri, for one, is as guilty as hell. And second of all, I don`t understand why -- what makes someone -- for one -- put out a contract on her husband and then all of a sudden his child is missing and she`s the last one to see him?
If she`s that unhappy, why not just get out of it? I mean I`ve never seen that woman once show a bit of emotion about anything.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session," how many times have you and I seen women and men, as opposed to getting a divorce, they commit murder?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": That`s right. And when you talk about motive, you know, some e-mails have come out. She had a son, an older son that went to live with her parents a few months before.
E-mails have come out saying that he was doing so much better when he wasn`t in the presence of Kyron.
GRACE: Now I don`t understand that. What does that mean, Dr. Bethany?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": I don`t quite understand that one, to be quite honest with you. But to go to the caller`s question I think that Terri may have had, like, a borderline personality disorder which causes extreme --
GRACE: There you go again.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You say that every -- you know, do you think everybody out there has a personality disorder?
MARSHALL: Well, most --
GRACE: Do you think you have a personality disorder? I mean because every time I ask you something you say they`ve got a borderline personality disorder.
MARSHALL: Well, Nancy, something is really wrong with someone who puts a hit -- tries to get a hit-man to kill her husband and then does away with her child but -- because with borderline there is such extreme ragefulness and there`s lack of a conscience and at the slightest insult they really want to do away with people.
There is a callousness and a coldness. And that`s why I think about borderline.
GRACE: You know, very quickly, Marc Klaas, what do you make of it? This is your expertise?
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I don`t believe that there`s a grand conspiracy afoot here at all. I don`t believe that Terri was working with other people to get rid of Kyron.
That would make sense if there was possibly some kind of a ransom demand. But I think that this was something much more nefarious and much more sinister than that and as such I believe that possibly she was working with one other person, certainly no more than that in whatever it is that she did after 8:45 that morning. On June 4th.
GRACE: Speaking of the timeline. Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer, I understand the timeline has been narrowed. Explain.
JOSTAD: That`s right. It`s actually been narrowed down to between 10:15 and 11:30. That`s the period of time that both Dede Spicher and Terri Horman cannot be accounted for.
Now we know a little bit later Terri Horman went in and checked in at her gym at 11:39. We also know Dede Spicher was apparently seen back on her job gardening at 1:00 but there`s this little window where they can`t figure out where either of them were.
GRACE: OK. We are taking your calls. Very quickly, Sheryl McCollum, what do you make of this?
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST, DIR. OF COLD CASE SQUAD AT PINE LAKE P.D.: Nancy, the problem with this case is it`s revenge. She attempted to have the husband murdered. She was sexting his best friend from high school. She attempted to do something with Kyron, kidnapping at the very least.
And then she tried to get the other daughter from day care. She is going after this husband in every way that she can. It is revengeful. There`s never going to be a ransom note. It`s not about money. Ever.
GRACE: And still no sign of little Kyron.
Tonight, the latest developments in the search for 7-year-old Kyron. We learn step-mommy is so afraid police are listening she goes outside in the front yard to have conversations, asking her friends to use portable disposable cell phones.
Quick break. Happy birthday to Georgia friend, defense lawyer Peter Odom.
Happy birthday to Hardwick Butler, a local Boy Scout leader for years.
Happy birthday, Mr. Butler.
Tonight I want to tell you about a little 4-year-old Florida boy Ayden in the fight of a lifetime battling spinal cancer. Doctors able to remove out 30 percent of the tumor. Ayden has no feeling in the right leg. Requires physical therapy, proton therapy, chemotherapy.
Tonight his family needs help. Take a look at this precious boy. For info and to donate go to Cure4ayden.com.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YOUNG: My theory is that Kyron is alive.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Terri Horman has been the subject of a lot of speculation.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Holes in Terri Horman`s timeline.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Searchers return to wooded areas and open fields several miles south of Skyline School.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The area is where Dede Spicher, one of Kyron`s stepmom`s friends, was gardening the day Kyron vanished.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s obviously very suspicious.
HORMAN: A minute away was awful enough. To be this far along and have him not home is terrible.
YOUNG: Someone`s holding him.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: No criminal charges have been filed. No suspects have been named.
YOUNG: I just have a feeling that somebody`s holding him.
HORMAN: I wish there were a lot of things that were different so that I could take on the burden that he`s going through right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kyron`s disappearance involves criminal behavior.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators have focused intently on the stepmother Terri Horman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dede Spicher.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Dede Spicher is a very close friend of Terri Horman.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She`s become a new focus of the Kyron investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Dede Spicher.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Significant developments.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The woman the Hormans say refuses to cooperate with the search for their son Kyron.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stepmother`s friend.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Dede Spicher, one of Kyron`s stepmom`s friends, was gardening the day Kyron vanished.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s obviously very suspicious.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Significant progress.
YOUNG: In my opinion I hope Terri Horman is arrested and her friends that are involved, they need to speak up.
We love you, Kyron.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you know if Terri is hiding something? Were you with her on June 4th?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The key date is June 4th.
YOUNG: Never give up hope. We are all coming to get you to bring you home.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Holly in Georgia. Hi, Holly.
HOLLY, CALLER FROM GEORGIA: Hi, Nancy. I watch you every night and I love your book.
GRACE: Thank you. Thank you.
HOLLY: You`re welcome. I`m just wondering if they found Kyron`s body, what condition would it be in at this point?
GRACE: To Dr. Michael Arnall, board-certified forensic pathologist out of Denver? What about it, Doctor?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: After this period of time if the body has been exposed to the air, there may be significant decomposition even animal predation. But if a body is buried you might be surprised at how well the body has been preserved.
GRACE: Hmm. If the body is buried. Why is that, Doctor?
ARNALL: When the body is buried, it`s in an environment where insects may not be able to get to it and animals may not be able to get to it. Now it will slowly be degraded by bacteria, but without animal predation and insects, the body may be preserved.
GRACE: It`s so hard to look at this little boy with his thick little glasses and imagine that he is buried somewhere.
What about if he`s in water, Dr. Arnall?
ARNALL: If he`s in water, in a summer environment, then there`s going to be insects in the water. There`s going to be predation by invertebrates and there could be extensive degradation of the tissue.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session," you said something earlier that to me just hat ran a chill down my spine. You said that the stepmother says that her husband Kaine Horman is so much worse when he is around little Kyron.
How can you be worse when you`re around your child? I don`t understand that.
CASAREZ: Well, I think what she was saying was that her older son was getting D`s in school but when he went to live with his grandparents that he started getting A`s because he wasn`t around Kyron, the little boy, Kyron. So they had problems.
GRACE: Oh, I see. I understand now. I got it.
Marc Klaas, try to put the pieces together.
KLAAS: Well, I believe that Terri is absolutely involved in this. Her timeline has never made any kind of sense.
I do not for a minute believe that there is a grand conspiracy, that maybe she was working with one other person. That`s a possibility.
I believe that the little boy is not alive, but I understand why the parents say that he is alive. They really have no alternative but to do that. They have to keep hope alive. And I think that this case may go unsolved unless Terri breaks.
GRACE: To CW Jensen. Now we understand cops have been digging in a garden for Kyron`s body. Where is the garden and why digging there?
JENSEN: This is significant. Dede Spicher was gardening at an estate on June 4th and then she disappeared for a period of time. So they went to that estate and they`ve done some significant searches there, I think, to look not only for the possibility of Kyron but the possibility that other evidence might have been buried by Dede Spicher.
And one thing that I think everybody needs to realize is we focus on Dede Spicher disappeared for a period of time. Terri Horman disappeared for a period of time. But remember so did Kyron Horman and only two of those people have ever shown up again.
GRACE: You know, they`ve also searched other locations that relate to the best friend Dede Spicher, CW Jensen. Where?
JENSEN: They didn`t search her home and seized evidence there. What they`ve done is they`ve tried to figure out where these women went and on the best kind of guess they can, go to those areas and search.
I think that we`ll probably see more searches in the future as they continue with this case. We may be in a period of time where we won`t hear a lot. But believe me, the investigators are working very, very hard to find this little boy and to solve this case.
GRACE: Ellie Jostad, didn`t they also search Dede Spicher`s mom`s condo or something like that?
JOSTAD: Yes, it was actually her aunt`s home, Nancy.
GRACE: Yes.
JOSTAD: Reportedly that was one of the other locations that they checked because Dede Spicher had lived there for some time.
GRACE: OK. What about the divorce? What are we learning from the divorce filings and statements related to the divorce?
JOSTAD: Well, Nancy, Kaine Horman wants this divorce to go forward but Terri Horman is asking for it to be stayed. She says because of all the negative attention, all the negative media reports that she can`t possibly -- that her lawyer can`t handle the divorce case right now.
GRACE: Why? What`s her reasoning?
JOSTAD: Well, I guess what they`re trying to say is that they think this should be stayed or put in abatement until after the criminal case is settled. But Kaine Horman`s lawyers are saying we don`t know when the criminal aspects of this case are ever going to be resolved so we need to go through with the divorce case now.
GRACE: Well, Renee Rockwell, Alex Sanchez, it`s not like she`s named a defendant or a suspect. She has no Fifth Amendment immunity so why can`t the divorce go forward, Rockwell?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, because they`re going to want to depose her and start asking her questions. She has a lawyer to the tune of $350,000 so I`m sure he`s giving her some very good advice that they don`t need --
GRACE: Right.
ROCKWELL: -- to put her in any kind of witness position.
GRACE: OK. Sanchez?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. She doesn`t want to get on the witness stand and stop making statements.
GRACE: OK.
SANCHEZ: Which the police could use to implicate her in these offenses. It`s as simple as that.
GRACE: I don`t think they need a whole lot of help.
Out to the lines. Linda, Missouri, hi, dear.
LINDA, CALLER FROM MISSOURI: I was calling to see if they actually sent the dogs out to track if there was --
GRACE: Mm-hmm. What about it, Jean Casarez?
CASAREZ: Dogs everywhere. And in that garden area where the garden party was going to be the next day, they`ve gone neighborhood to neighborhood, resident to resident with pictures of Terri and Dede asking them if they saw them or the truck.
GRACE: Tonight, everyone, "CNN Heroes".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARMON PARKER, CNN HERO: What strikes me about this place is the beauty and the feeling of being insignificant. Life for people here is very difficult. Very secluded. The beauty of this place also becomes dangerous because of these mountains when it rains.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (Through Translator): My father came to the market in the morning. He was with my mother. On the way back in the evening, they found the river was flooded. They drowned.
PARKER: I`ve worked all over Kenya. Every community has the same story. Crocodiles and hippos. And loved ones lost.
When it floods, people really suffer not being able to get across to the clinic or the market or to their school.
Look at this. Here come some kids helping.
The very first bridge I built, I saw I could change lives and transform communities. So I carried on. And I love what I do.
My name is Harmon Parker. And I build bridges to transform people`s lives.
The community has to initiate the project. They have to participate and make some sort of financial contribution. I don`t know how many goats I have in this region, but they always give me a goat.
I`ve spent half my life in a tent. I`ve had malaria seven or eight times. It`s hard. It takes a lot of determination.
Get it, get it. (Speaking in foreign language).
A bridge is a beautiful metaphor for many things. I feel I`m privileged to do what I`m doing. I`m destined to help people and I`m driven by that.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and more important the people who touched our lives.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The search for Nina Keown.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want them to keep looking until we find her.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A 26-year-old woman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Blond hair.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has two, a 3-year-old daughter and a 6-year- old son. They want to know why they haven`t seen mommy.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: "American Idol" winner Fantasia Barrino accused of being the other woman in a love triangle.
FANTASIA BARRINO, "AMERICAN IDOL" WINNER: I did meet him in the T- Mobile Store. They took it and ran with it. They said I was a home wrecker. They`re wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This is in North Carolina where you can sue the other women for alienation of affection.
GRACE: You don`t take a guy on an exotic vacation and hop on a jet ski with him if it`s not something more than friendship.
MISTY CROSLIN, FORMER STEPMOM/BABYSITTER OF HALEIGH CUMMINGS: They need to move on. Away from me, get off of me. They need to move on.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Misty Croslin`s lawyer says (INAUDIBLE) was hiding under a blanket but could hear the 5-year-old girl screaming.
TERESA NEVES, HALEIGH CUMMINGS` MATERNAL GRANDMOTHER: I don`t believe anything that Misty says.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And saw Overstreet put Haleigh in a black bag.
CRYSTAL SHEFFIELD, HALEIGH CUMMING`S BIOLOGICAL MOTHER: Deep in my heart, I know she`s out there.
NEVES: She`s told so many stories. Whatever it is, it needs to be proven.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Thirteen-year-old girl missing Karina Valencia was at a friend`s birthday party around 6:30 p.m. Saturday night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very extensive investigation is going on.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Los Angeles police are desperately searching - -
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her frequent points of contact would be at the library in Sylmar. He also frequents a park on Polk Street and Brandon Avenues.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say it`s possible Karina may have left the party to meet up with an unidentified male she met on the Internet via MySpace.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: This is dispatch. What is your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I need a paramedic, please. My friend -- I was giving my daughter -- or my friend`s daughter a bath. I walked out of the room to grab a towel and she fell. And I don`t know. I came back in there and she`s all limp.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A South Carolina mom who police say reportedly admitted to killing her two little boys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Miss Duley, you`re being charged, ma`am, on an arrest warrant. Both charges with murder, ma`am. You understand that?
SHAQUAN DULEY, ACCUSED OF MURDERING HER TWO SONS: Yes, sir.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Steven McGowan, 26, North Delaware, killed Iraq. An Army medic. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart. Also served Korea.
Loved handing out beanie babies to Iraqi children, skydiving, surfing, rugby. Favorite team New Zealand`s All Black. Remembered for his smile and living life to the fullest. Leaves behind mother Bobbie Ann, sister Mikaela.
Steven McGowan, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially you for being with us. And a special good night from the New York control room.
Good night, Brett, Dana, Evil, Squeaky. Show your face, dear. There you are.
Everyone, see you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
