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Nancy Grace
Homicide Charges Expected in Missing 9-Month-Old Memphis Baby
Aired September 29, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live Tennessee. After Mommy refuses to take care of her own 9-month-old baby girl any longer, she claims she hands over baby Lauryn to a complete stranger. The beautiful little girl never seen again. But Mommy doesn`t call police for over a week. Homicide detectives and cadaver dogs search the homes of Mom and Grandma, pulling out mountains of evidence, cell phones, baby clothes, even the baby`s carseat. Why didn`t she hand that over, too?
Bombshell tonight. We obtain the search warrants, revealing investigators searching for baby Lauryn`s body. At this hour, we believe murder charges against Mommy imminent. We are standing by live, as investigators still combing over the newly obtained evidence. Tonight, what happened to baby Lauryn?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Tennessee mother who allegedly gave her baby away to a total stranger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stranger. Stranger. Stranger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Didn`t report it to police for eight days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While the search for 10-month-old Lauryn Dickens continues, her mother, Shakara Dickens, faced a judge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) aggravated child abuse. That carries 15 to 60 years in prison without parole, if you are convicted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nineteen-year-old Shakara Dickens told cops she gave her 9-month-old baby away to a stranger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Unknown female, white, 40 to 50 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just hours after the baby`s father allegedly told Dickens to give the child to an unknown white female.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The baby`s mother says the woman came to her Raleigh apartment complex that day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops say Dickens claims she gave baby Lauryn to the female without knowing who she was or where she lives.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stranger. Stranger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dickens hasn`t seen the baby since.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lauryn Dickens was last seen wearing a brown onesie, 1 foot, 9 inches tall, 17 pounds.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now reports emerge police are investigating whether the baby`s father, who is currently behind bars on unrelated charges, knows where Lauryn is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He told police he knows nothing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a 4-year-old boy snacks on a Rice Krispy treat while Mommy`s asleep. Hours later, the baby is raced to the hospital near death. The Rice Krispies treat -- it was laced with marijuana. That`s right, the 4-year-old nearly dies high on pot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Idaho police arrested a Boise couple after the 4-year-old they were watching allegedly ate a Rice Krispy treat laced with marijuana. Police say the child apparently found the treat in a cupboard at the home of Tony and Medina Green (ph). The child was rushed to the hospital with slurred speech and bloodshot eyes. That`s when police were called to investigate. The Greens face charges of felony injury to a child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holy crap! And that`s when I remembered. And by the way, the stuff was scattered off the top of the microwave, you know, because that`s where we kept our (INAUDIBLE). That`s when I realized we don`t know what it does to a 4-year-old. So of course, I had my wife take him to the emergency room.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. After Mommy refuses to take care of her own 9-month-old baby girl, she claims she hands over baby Lauryn to a complete stranger. The beautiful little baby never seen again. Tonight, what happened to baby Lauryn?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Admitted she gave her baby to a stranger.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother says the baby actually was handed over to a stranger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dickens`s story about her missing child keeps changing. First she said she gave the baby to a stranger. Then she said her parents were keeping the child at their town home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not seem distraught in the slightest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The whole story stinks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This smells fishy!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This stinks from the get-go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reports that police are not buying the story.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cadaver dog gave detectives reason to believe there were human remains inside Dickens`s apartment on Nail (ph) Road.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Homicide detectives, crime scene technicians and a cadaver dog here on the scene.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Searching the apartment for some kind of forensic evidence to see if there was anything done to the child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After obtaining a search warrant, investigators only came away with a few cell phones and some baby items.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did see them remove some small paper sacks and some baby`s toys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think something very, very tragic has happened to this child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lauryn Dickens was last seen wearing a brown onesie with one pink flower and pink dots. She stands one foot, nine inches tall and weighs 17 pounds. Memphis police say Lauryn Dickens`s mother, Shakara, admitted she gave her baby to a stranger and did not report it to police for days. The city watch (ph) says this may be a case of custodial interference. Family law books define custodial interference as, quote, "the taking or keeping of a child from the custodial parent with the intent to interfere with that parent`s rightful physical custody."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Nicole Partin, investigative reporter, covering the story. What happened, Nicole? I don`t buy this whole thing.
NICOLE PARTIN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER (via telephone): Good evening, Nancy. This just in. Nine-month-old infant girl presumed dead. Is Mom`s arrest is imminent? This as the Mom`s inconsistent stories and lies lead investigators to write in the search warrant that they are now seeking the human remains of Lauryn Dickens.
GRACE: You know, Ellie Jostad, when did it turn from a missing person, a missing child to looking for a dead body? How did the police make that leap? Why do they think this 9-month-old baby girl is now dead?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. Well, we do know that police served warrants on both the mother`s home, the grandmother`s home and on the grandmother`s car. In the search, they revealed that a cadaver dog hit on the smell of human decomposition in the mother`s apartment, the location where little Lauryn was last seen. That`s what launched these searches, Nancy.
GRACE: To Paul Penzone, former sergeant, Phoenix PD, child advocate. There is no mistaking human remains, all right? And it can be so minute that a human can`t smell it. Explain. How does a dog know the difference between a human remain and anything else?
PAUL PENZONE, FMR. PHOENIX POLICE SGT., CHILD ADVOCATE: Well, these dogs are trained much like law enforcement officers are trained specifically for a duty. And the olfactory abilities of dogs is far beyond anything that we can even imagine as humans. But they can track and they`re trained to track specifically those human remains that are identified as, unfortunately in this case, deceased. Then what happens is those officers testify on behalf of the dogs` training, as well as the practices and the exact, you know, results from every situation that they`re involved in to show that it`s credible information.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Quince in New York. Hi, Quince.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: What`s your question, love?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have two questions. My first question is, the mother -- why would it take her eight days? And why would you give your kid to someone that you don`t absolutely know at all? And what do the parents have to say about the daughter? Is she neglecting, or like, has she had any signs of neglect in the child or harming the child?
GRACE: Good question. Hold on, Quince. I`m going to throw that to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Her first question was eight days to report the child missing?
JOSTAD: Right.
GRACE: I mean, how did this hand-off allegedly go down?
JOSTAD: Well, that`s the other thing that`s disturbing that`s revealed from these search warrants, Nancy. Allegedly, the mom says that she talked to the baby`s father, Benjamin Norfleet -- by the way, he`s in jail. She says she talked to him on the phone. She told him she couldn`t take care of the baby. He said, I`m going to send somebody over...
GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Ellie...
JOSTAD: Yes?
GRACE: ... couldn`t or wouldn`t?
JOSTAD: Yes. Well, apparently, she says that they discussed the baby`s care and she couldn`t handle it, is roughly what we`re hearing from police. So...
GRACE: Does she have any other children?
JOSTAD: She does. She has one other child, a son. Apparently, he lives with another relative. So she told this -- you know, the boy`s -- the baby`s father that she couldn`t take care of the baby. He claims -- she claims he told her, I`m going to send somebody over. Give the baby to this woman. She says a woman, a white woman, 40 to 50 years old, you know, hair parted down the middle, open-toed sandals -- she says this woman comes over. She doesn`t get the woman`s name, doesn`t get the woman`s address, but she hands over the baby. And police say no way this is true. They never spoke on the phone. The baby`s father hasn`t talked to her since late August.
GRACE: OK, if you take a look at this woman -- this is Shakara Dickens. She`s beautiful, even in these mug shots, even in court, looking awful from being in jail overnight. She has this beautiful baby girl. Take a look at Lauryn. In my mind, there is a chance she`s alive. Look. And this mom apparently has a history, we now know, of just giving children away.
It reminds me a lot of Elizabeth Johnson. Remember that woman, who claimed she just gives the baby away, baby Gabriel? I`m talking about Elizabeth Johnson who just gives Baby Gabriel away to a couple she meets in a public park. She`s still behind bars while police look for answers.
Back to you, Ellie Jostad. Eight days pass before she reports anything to police?
JOSTAD: Right. That`s right, Nancy. It was actually September 7th that she says this mystery woman came and took the baby. She doesn`t call police until September 15th. Now, we learned from these documents from police that nobody aside from the mother can verify having seen the baby until the day before, September 6th.
GRACE: We were just talking about Elizabeth Johnson, Ellie Jostad. What`s the update on that case and how does this compare to Elizabeth Johnson?
JOSTAD: Well, Elizabeth Johnson, you`ll remember -- she was claiming -- or her defense lawyers were claiming that she was not capable, she was not fit to stand trial, that she`s mentally ill. However, she has just been ruled competent, so she will face those charges she`s facing right now, which as I remember correctly are child neglect, I believe also interference with custody charge.
GRACE: Now, another question that Quince in New York had was, had there been any other unusual behavior that the parents, the grandparents had noticed? Had this child been neglected?
JOSTAD: Well, Nancy, the mom is charged with aggravated neglect right now. And here`s another disturbing thing. There are reports that the grandmother of this baby, that`s Shakara Dickens`s mother -- police reportedly say that the grandmother is no longer cooperating with them.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Elaine in Illinois. Hi, Elaine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. It is so pleasure to meet you!
GRACE: Likewise. Thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, my question is, do you think the boyfriend is trying to make her get rid of the baby because it really ain`t his, and he don`t want to have nothing to do with the baby, so she feels that was her best option is to give it away?
GRACE: You know, no one has suggested this is not his baby. What do we know about that, Nicole Partin?
PARTIN: (INAUDIBLE) no evidence to prove that at all. And as we`ve already heard, police are verifying that the father, Benjamin Norfleet, has had no contact with the mother, Shakara. In fact, her phones had blocked all incoming phone calls from the jail. And so police are saying, you know, her stories are just lies. Her stories are full of inconsistencies. And they can in no way link this to the father.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clearly, the conversations that she had with the police have alerted them to the fact that this whole story is bogus.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s something here. Hopefully, the child is still alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something has happened to this child, and I`m sure the police are looking at this as a lot more than a missing persons case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But I`ll tell you, if she did any harm to this child, it would not be difficult to kill a 9-month-old child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the detectives went and spoke her, they didn`t believe her story. There were a lot of holes in what she was saying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can smother this kid, strangle this kid, throw this kid down a flight of stairs. Anything could cause fatal injury.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: White female, 40 to 50 years old, eyeglasses.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clearly, the mother is coming out with a story.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something happened to this child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gray, shoulder-length straight hair, khaki Capri pants, white closed-toe sandals.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When someone gives that detailed information, it`s often a signal of deception.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clearly, the conversations that she had with the police have alerted them to the fact that this whole story is bogus. They don`t believe anything. The cadaver dogs are an indication of that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Paul Penzone, former sergeant, Phoenix PD, child advocate. What do you make of this woman`s story she just handed the baby over to a woman that appeared at her door?
PENZONE: We`ve heard this so many times now in these different cases. And investigators look to see, does the story make any reasonable sense that a mother would do something like that and have no information as to who she turned this child over to? That and the compilation of all the differences in her stories as it progressed gives them great suspicion that they need to identify some physical evidence to show is the baby is safe somewhere or has the baby been harmed. But indications right now are that it`s probably been harmed, and that`s heart-breaking. So investigators have to be very aggressive and the community needs to support them in finding where this child is.
GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Ellie, did they interview the father behind bars and corroborate the story that he was sending someone over to take the baby, to take care of the baby?
JOSTAD: Yes, well, we talked to the lawyer for Benjamin Norfleet, the baby`s father. He says that Norfleet didn`t know anything about this until police showed up at his cell to interview him. This is after the mother had reported the baby missing. So there`s nothing to corroborate this story that Norfleet told her to give the baby away.
GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist joining us out of New York. This reminds me so much of tot mom, Casey Anthony, mothers who just simply don`t want the stress of having a baby, even if it`s just one baby to care for. And Casey Anthony, she had free rent, free food, free car, free gas, free everything, partied all night. But still the stress was just too much, according to her. She wanted to live the single life, and her child ends up dead. Explain that pathology, Dr. Saunders.
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, PSYCHOLOGY: Well, it sure does sound like the Casey Anthony case. It`s a narcissistic pathology, where the mother is immature, egocentric, and really lives for the moment and her own impulses, is incapable of caring and loving for a child and even feeling for a child, if these women killed their own babies.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Charlotte in Michigan. Hi, Charlotte.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I would like to know, can they charge this mother with homicide if they never find the baby?
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Sue Moss, family law attorney, child advocate, New York, Raymond Giudice, Atlanta, Richard Herman, defense attorney. New York. Sue Moss, weigh in.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Absolutely. The differing stories of Dickens will cause her to cook her chickens! She doesn`t have a chance! She`s told so many different stories, no one`s going to believe her! Who plagiarizes Casey Anthony? Hasn`t she learned anything from this show? The reality is, this woman doesn`t even have enough money to hire Jose Baez! She`s going down!
GRACE: What about it, Giudice?
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: She can absolutely be charged and indicted and convicted without the finding of a body. But what that requires is what I call front-end evidence -- a crime scene, a crime weapon, a motive, some other evidence that ties it down so that you can get a conviction without the body.
GRACE: Take a look at this baby girl, Lauryn Dickens, just 9 months old when her mother decided she just simply didn`t want to take care of the baby anymore. She says she gave the baby away to a complete stranger, a woman, a white female, well dressed, who comes to her door at the behest of the mother`s husband. Long story short, the baby has not been seen again. Tonight, where is baby Lauryn?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A police cadaver dog hit on a scent.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nine-month-old Lauryn Dickens is still missing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don`t have a comment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The crime scene technician removed a number of baby toys from the apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her whereabouts a complete mystery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No body was recovered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shakara Dickens reported Lauryn missing eight days after she says she willingly gave the baby to a middle-aged white woman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did have a conversation with her last week through the door of her apartment. She did not appear upset at all. She said she was interested in finding her baby, didn`t know where the baby was and didn`t know anything about the lady who supposedly took the baby. Like, she didn`t seem distraught in the slightest.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We have breaking news in the search for 9-month-old Lauryn Dickens. You are seeing her photo right now. The tip line, 901-528-2274. We are waiting at this moment. We believe murder charges are imminent against the baby girl`s own mother.
Is there a body? No, there is not. There is a slim chance this child is still alive. What we do know is that the Mommy announces she can`t take the stress of raising a baby. She claims that at the behest of the baby`s father, she gives the baby away, a 9-month-old baby girl, gives the baby over to a woman that appears at her door, a well-dressed white female with open-toed shoes. That`s all she can tell us. She hands over her child, a baby girl, to a woman that shows up at the door. The child has not been seen since. Tonight, we learn, through search warrants that we have just obtained, police reveal they are looking for a body.
Back to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer on the story. Ellie, what do we know about the day she says she gave away her baby?
JOSTAD: That`s right, Nancy. She says that she talked to the baby`s father, Benjamin Norfleet. He`s 19, same as the mom -- talked to him on the phone. They had a discussion about the baby`s welfare and her inability to care for the baby. He said that somebody would be coming to the house and that she should give the baby to that person. She says several hours later, later that morning, about 11:00 AM, this 40 to 50- year-old white woman, hair parted down the middle, wearing khaki pants, open-toed sandals, comes over and so she gives the baby to this woman without asking her name, not asking how to find her, not even getting a phone number from her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But she`s blaming it on the dad.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The baby`s mother told police she talked with the baby`s father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The father allegedly told Dickens to give the baby away to an unknown white female.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If we can prove that there was no phone call.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The number you dialed is no longer in service.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No visit, no communication, she`s sunk!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Nine-month-old Lauryn Dickens.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Missing.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Her mom is locked up, 19-year-old Shakara Dickens.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say she`s being detained.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Claims she gave her baby to a total stranger more than a week before she reported little Lauryn missing.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Has not been officially charged with a crime.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The crime scene technician removed a number of paper sacks and baby toys from the apartment. The police cadaver dog hit on a scent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What kind of a mother gives her baby away to a stranger?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clearly, when the detectives went and spoke with her they didn`t believe her story.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: We saw the dog enter the apartment after police made entry and heard the dog bark at least two or three times which means that they did detect some sort of scent.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are bringing you breaking news tonight in the search for this little girl, 9-month-old Lauryn Dickens. The little thing is only 1`9", 17 pounds. Reportedly with a skin rash on forearms and knees, wearing a brown onesie with a pink flower and pink dots on it.
The tip line 901-528-2274.
To Dr. Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist. I can`t imagine. I remember how afraid I was the first time I bathed one of the twins because their necks are so weak. I was so afraid I would surprise them or shock them with water on their face. And the way I held them it was like I was holding a dozen eggs.
I can`t imagine just giving the baby -- somebody rings the doorbell and you hand the baby over. I don`t get it.
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I don`t get it either, Nancy. I don`t think she handed the baby over to anybody. But it is possible. Not all mothers have attachment to their babies. If they have been traumatized. If they were brought up in isolation from their parents, they`re not going to bond.
So is that a normal person? Hell no. But I don`t believe the stories. The inconsistencies are just too dramatic and we have the cadaver dog.
GRACE: Tell me exactly what we know about the cadaver dog, Ellie Jostad. Penzone was bringing up -- what exactly do we know?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Yes, this was on September 21st. Police brought in a FEMA-trained cadaver dog to search the premises, the residence. They say that the dog hit on the mother`s apartment at the Raleigh village and that that is the last known location where the girl was seen.
GRACE: Tell me again exactly inside the home. Do we know where it hit and how many times it hit?
JOSTAD: No. Unfortunately we don`t know that. Now when we first heard about this, before we got these warrants, we had heard that the dog actually hit in the yard out in front of the house. But they dug the area. They didn`t find anything. The warrant, however, makes it sound as though the dog hit inside the apartment.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to -- hold on. Do I still have Charlotte in Michigan? OK. Hold on while you get the next caller up. Thanks, Elizabeth.
I want to go to you, Nicole Partin, what about her family? What are they saying?
NICOLE PARTIN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Nancy, another disturbing point in this whole story. The grandmother, police are telling us, this was the last home where Shakara and little Lauryn lived before they moved to the apartment just a few weeks ago.
They were driving the grandmother`s car. This is the car that`s been seized and now being searched. The grandmother refuses to cooperate with authorities. She will not speak. She has nothing to say.
As a matter of fact, she egged reporters outside her home. She physically threw eggs at the reporters. She`s tight-lipped and refuses to help at all.
GRACE: OK. That`s classy. I want to talk about what was taken out of the home. Now we have just obtained search warrants and reading them carefully. We have learned police say they are now looking for a body.
What do we know was taken out of the home, Nicole Partin?
PARTIN: From the grandmother`s home, we know there were things like strollers, and little pants and little shirts, lots of blankets, lots of toys, pink toys, socks, hats, lots of things that you would expect to find where a baby lives.
In the mother`s home -- in the apartment where little Lauryn was living at the time of the disappearance, things like carseats, cell phones, receipts, pizza receipts, Wal-Mart receipts, things like that. A Winnie the Pooh blanket.
And then there was the car. The car was seized and brought in. And things that were removed from the car were things like more blankets. Also the carpet from the back trunk of the vehicle. There were papers. There was a yellow notebook, a lot of writing and scribbles on paperwork that were also seized.
GRACE: You are seeing video right now of police hauling out bag after bag after bag of evidence, evidence taken from the home of Shakara Dickens.
She`s being held on a $2 million bond. This after her 9-month-old baby girl is missing. She said she just decided she wouldn`t take care of the baby girl anymore. Her own baby, 9 months old. And that she handed her over to a stranger, a female, a white female that appears at the door.
All right. Back to the lawyers. Richard Herman, Raymond Giudice, Susan Moss.
The thing is, Richard Herman, she`s locked herself into that statement now.
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Those inconsistent statements are all going to be admissible, Nancy. I`m surprised she didn`t say she gave it to someone saying Zanny or something.
But the charge is the insight here. We have aggravated child abuse are the initial charges, Nancy. That is very, very heavy and very bad for the outcome of this case.
GRACE: And to you, Raymond Giudice. I know and I argued many, many times to juries that lady justice is blind. Blind to age, to race, to money.
But listen, Ray. A jury does hold a mother to a different standard. I don`t care what you defense attorneys say.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. Yes.
GRACE: Because everybody, unless you`re a freak, loves their mother. All right?
GIUDICE: It`s very difficult not to.
GRACE: You always go to your mother. You expect the best out of your mother. And when a mother does something like this?
GIUDICE: This would be a very tough jury to pick. Women, especially those who have had children, are going to recognize that this woman violated the mother-daughter, mother-child bond and relationship.
Men are going to say, you took this child away from its father. It`s a no-win situation on jury selection. Very difficult for the defense lawyers.
GRACE: To Dr. Robert Kaufmann, doctor of internal medicine joining us out of Atlanta. You know, the police have confiscated vehicle in child disappearance. What could they possibly be looking for, Doctor?
DR. ROBERT KAUFMANN, M.D., INTERNAL MEDICINE: Well, a lot of the times they would take the body and put it in the car. There will be some remnants left on the carpet or on the door or things like that. Looking for -- looking for decomposed parts, also skin, hair, things like that.
GRACE: Dr. Kaufmann, you have seen and treated so many, many children. Do you think that there was prior abuse of this baby before she was given away?
KAUFMANN: Well, you would assume the baby was not properly cared for. I mean, if a mother -- the baby`s been gone for seven days and then she doesn`t say anything until then, you know she doesn`t care about that baby. So what did she do when the baby starts crying at 2:00 in the morning? Do you think she ran in there to take care of that baby?
GRACE: No, I don`t. And I don`t see that there is any way the baby had not been abused. I mean if you`re to the point where you kill the baby or, you know, best case scenario you give it away to a complete stranger, you at the very least have been neglecting the baby.
If she had been neglecting the baby what would you expect to find?
KAUFMANN: Well, you would expect the baby to be emaciated, not clean. Things like that. Just normal day-to-day care neglected on the baby.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The baby`s mother says the woman came to her Raleigh apartment complex that day. She gave her baby to the woman and has not seen her daughter for about a week and a half.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An Idaho couple is being charged with felony injury to a child after the 4-year-old boy they were watching allegedly ate a Rice Krispie treat laced with marijuana.
NATE SHELMAN, HOST: How big of a pot brownie are we talking here? About two, three inches? Or regular sized -- I`m sorry, regular size Rice Krispie treat?
TONY GREEN, FATHER: Uh, yes. Yes. Just a square, you know.
SHELMAN: And you had it in a little Tupperware?
GREEN: I think it was -- wrapped in cellophane, I think.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The treat was left in the cupboard in the home of Tony and Medina Green. Police believed the child ate the treat while Toni Green was out of the house and Medina Green was sleeping.
Medina Green rushed the 4-year-old to the hospital where he was described as lethargic with bloodshot eyes and slurred speech.
SHELMAN: For three and a half years, wrapped in cellophane?
GREEN: Yes, sir. I can only imagine what this thing tasted like, it had to be horrible.
SHELMAN: Probably tasted like marijuana.
GREEN: I really couldn`t tell you.
SHELMAN: Three and a half-year-old marijuana.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are talking your calls live. I am talking about a little boy while mommy is asleep who innocently goes into the kitchen and ends up being raced to the hospital near death.
Why? Because for some reason mommy and daddy have Rice Krispie treats laced heavily with marijuana.
The baby nearly dies.
Out to Nate Shelman, host of Newsradio 670 KBOI joining us out of from Boise.
Nate, come on. You`ve got a baby in the house and you leave drug Krispie treats?
SHELMAN: Nancy, according to the -- according to the police report, the hospital saw that the 4-year-old was lethargic, had bloodshot eyes. They contacted the police.
Now, the father, Tony Green, called my show today and explained why he had drug-laced Krispie treats. He claims it was a gift from a long time ago that he hadn`t thrown out because he didn`t want to be rude. And he had forgotten about it in the top shelf.
GRACE: Rude to who, Nate Shelman? And listen. Do you really think someone`s going to come up to me and give me drug-laced Rice Krispie treats as a gift? Who would accept something like that other than a doper? And so what`s his point?
And another thing to you, Nate Shelman, where was he storing the Rice Krispie treats? Where were they stored in the kitchen, Nate?
SHELMAN: According to -- according to Tony, he tells me that he stored it in a shelf about seven feet above his head. He`s 5`0" something, the shelf was 7`0" something.
This kid likes potato chips. And according to him this child, the little boy, was looking for the potato chips, climbed up on -- climbed up on different things as 4-year-olds tend to do. Not only found the potato chips --
GRACE: Really? Is that true, Nate?
(CROSSTALK)
SHELMAN: But also found the -- over 3-year-old marijuana-laced treat.
GRACE: Because right now, my twins are 3, and John David is already at nearly 50 pounds and comes up to about right here on me. And he`s never been able to reach a cabinet over 7`0" tall. Think about it. 7`0" tall.
And you`re saying that the drug-laced treat was behind potato chips? And so what type of container?
To you, Natisha Lance, what do we know about the container they were in? I mean the story is a lie. I want to hear this. Hit me.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, again, this treat has been back there for 3 1/2 years. The container that it was in was just cellophane. So if you`ve ever made Rice Krispie treats before, I know that I have, it will be hard as a rock by that point, 3 1/2 years later.
And another thing, too, that the father said on Nate`s show, is that he could take a pee test right now. He does not use drugs. But back in 1997 he pled guilty to possession of controlled substances.
GRACE: Put Naticia Lance up. Did you say a pee test?
LANCE: He did say that.
GRACE: I said did you say -- did you repeat that on this show?
LANCE: I did say that.
GRACE: It`s called a urinalysis.
LANCE: OK.
GRACE: OK. Back to you, Nate Shelman, host, Newsradio 670 KBOI. I`m almost afraid to ask but what else did he say?
SHELMAN: Well, the child is back now -- the child is back with the family.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. Nate. Nate. Nate.
SHELMAN: He posted bail -- he was arraigned and posted bail on Sunday and the little child was playing with him in his front yard as he was talking to me on my show.
GRACE: They gave the baby back to the doper? You`re kidding me.
SHELMAN: According to him he said one visit from child services and he`s cooperating.
GRACE: Where did this happen? What city was this?
SHELMAN: This was in Boise City, Idaho. Boise, Idaho.
GRACE: And the guy admits on your show that he has dope in the house and he`s kept there and they give the baby back after the baby has been rushed to the hospital because it ate the dope? They give the baby back?
SHELMAN: He -- according to him he rushed the baby to the hospital. He drove the baby to the hospital.
GRACE: I can`t -- I don`t care.
(CROSSTALK)
SHELMAN: He was not in the house. The wife was sleeping and the baby was hungry. When he came back home he saw remnants of the marijuana-laced Rice Krispie treat.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Sue Moss, Raymond Giudice, Richard Herman.
Am I supposed to, what, give him a gold star because he took the baby to the hospital, Sue Moss?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: Snap, crackle and pot. Are you kidding me? They gave this child back? He is guilty of child endangerment, of felony child abuse.
These people should be facing serious criminal charges. Now you even got a 4-year-old who probably thinks that the Rice Krispie elves are real.
GRACE: Raymond Giudice, I can`t believe they put the child back in the home. But what`s your defense?
GIUDICE: Well, my defense to the charges, well, I think I agree with you about this 4-year-old climbing up a 7-foot leader and eating a 3-year- old Rice Krispie treat.
GRACE: Yes. BS.
GIUDICE: I think what he needed to do is get himself -- this father and mother -- into a drug treatment program, get DFACS into that house. See if you can some good parenting plans going on and work something out down the road.
GRACE: Herman?
HERMAN: Yes, that`s it. There is no way this child ate a 3-year-old Rice Krispie treat. And Natisha Lance is right. That would be hard as a rock. His story is stupid.
GRACE: What a lie.
HERMAN: Yes. It`s really. It`s very stupid.
GRACE: You know, and the thing is, you know what? If you`re going to say something, don`t lie about it. Just don`t say anything at all.
HERMAN: Right. Right.
GRACE: Because now they`re stuck with that story. And I`m just wondering if a search was done of the home before they could flush everything down the commode.
Out to the lines, Carol in New York. Hi, Carol.
CAROL, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Nancy. I would like to know from the doctor, what are the long-term effects of marijuana on a 4-year-old?
GRACE: To you, Dr. Robert Kaufmann, doctor of internal medicine, Atlanta. What are they?
KAUFMANN: The baby could have permanent brain damage from that depending about the quantity and how much damage. Also it can affect the breathing of the baby so you can have some agnostic brain damage, meaning not getting enough oxygen which you kill brain cells.
GRACE: You know, I would ask our expert every time I have a marijuana question, Ellie Jostad seems to know the answer.
But I`m going to go to you, Ken Seeley, interventionist at Intervention911.com. Why put marijuana in, say, brownies, Rice Krispie treats. What`s the point?
KEN SEELEY, INTERVENTIONIST, INTERVENTION911.COM: Yes, Nancy, they`re doing this a lot nowadays especially in the state of California where they`re, you know, legalizing marijuana. They`re having other ways to consume it. So the smoking isn`t as hazardous or as difficult to digest.
So they`re using brownies, they`re using all kinds of things. In the olden days, it was brownies. Now it`s cupcakes and also they`re doing lollipops. All kinds of ways to take the drug.
And it`s just -- it`s devastating to hear that this is happening. I mean this is what the law needs to know. The people that are pushing for legalizing in different states, that these are kids. These kids are going to be looking for these type of treats. And this is going to happen on a regular basis if we continue to let people legalize this drug.
I mean it`s a drug. It`s not a medication. It`s disgusting.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREEN: God, it sounds like we`re such bad parents. We`re really not. We don`t do drugs. I don`t do methamphetamines or anything like that. I can take a pee test for -- right now for anybody and pass it.
SHELMAN: OK. I got to ask you the question then. Why didn`t you -- why would you hold on to a treat for 3 1/2 years? Have you not been up to that shelf in 3 1/2 years?
GREEN: I haven`t been able to see it. That`s how well hidden it was.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Idaho police arrested a Boise couple after the 4-year-old they were watching allegedly ate a Rice Krispie treat laced with marijuana. Police say the child apparently found the treat in a cupboard at the home of Tony and Medina Green.
The child was rushed to the hospital with slurred speech and bloodshot eyes. That`s when police were called to investigate. The Greens face charges of felony injury to a child.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Patricia in Texas. Hi, Patricia.
PATRICIA, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Hi, Nancy. You know what? I`m a mother. And I know I can hear every move that my child makes. And I just don`t understand as her being a woman that she didn`t hear them unless they were high themselves.
GRACE: You know what? I was wondering why mommy is asleep while all this is happening.
Back to you, Natisha Lance. What time of the day or night did this happen?
LANCE: That`s not clear, Nancy, what time of the day it was. But we do know that that immediately when they saw the signs that the child was looking funny, that they saw the Rice Krispie treats all over the floor, that they did rush the child to the hospital.
GRACE: And very quickly to Ken Seeley, Interventionist911.com. Final thought?
SEELEY: Yes, Nancy. This is two things of child endangerment. Not only climbing up seven feet without being supervised but then digesting marijuana. I mean, this is criminal. These people should be held accountable for their actions.
And if they don`t, then we`re setting an example that it`s OK to have marijuana in your house with young children and let them digest it.
And I believe the only reason why the father brought him into the hospital is because he thought he could be overdosing. Otherwise he would probably let him just stay loaded. So absolutely something needs to happen.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Carrie French, 19, Caldwell, Ohio, killed Iraq. Awarded nine medals including the Bronze Star and Purple Heart.
Varsity cheerleader, loved the outdoors, fishing, dancing, volleyball, softball and playing the trumpet. For her high school graduation gift, asked her dad to take her sky diving. Dreamed of attending law school and traveling to Europe. Leaves behind mother and step dad Paula and Doug, father Rick, sister Michaela and Sarah, brother-in-law David. Nephew child, niece Carrie.
Carrie French, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you. And happy birthday to California friend Meredith. She celebrates tonight with husband, Rick, and children, Sammy and Emily.
Well, she`s absolutely beautiful. Happy birthday, Meredith.
And tonight finally a grand prize winner in the contest of who should play Haley Dean if the new book "Death on the D-List" turns into a movie.
Congratulations, Jacey from Oklahoma. Her pick, Sandra Bullock.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
