Return to Transcripts main page
Nancy Grace
Police to Re-Question JonBenet`s Brother
Aired September 30, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 6-year-old beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey, found strangled, beaten to death, apparently the victim of a brutal sex assault, all in the basement of her own Boulder, Colorado, home. A decade later, still no justice for JonBenet.
Bombshell tonight. Is there a break in the case? Reports emerge Boulder police criss-crossing the country to question JonBenet`s brother, Burke Ramsey, only 9 years old at the time and there in the home the night little JonBenet was murdered. Tonight, why?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATSY RAMSEY, JONBENET`S MOTHER: There is a killer on the loose.
JOHN RAMSEY, JONBENET`S FATHER: Absolutely.
Our guard was down.
PATSY RAMSEY: I don`t know who it is.
JOHN RAMSEY: We don`t know where.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s someone out there!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was just 9 when his little sister, JonBenet Ramsey, was killed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do not jump to conclusions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now an expert on the infamous murder case says police want to talk to the brother about what he remembers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do not jump to judgments.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Ramseys` attorney, Lin Wood, says investigators want to meet with Burke but haven`t yet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do not speculate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was in the home the night JonBenet Ramsey died.
911 OPERATOR: What`s going on there, ma`am?
PATSY RAMSEY: We have a kidnapping! Hurry, please!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Burke is now 23 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Umbrella of suspicion.
PATSY RAMSEY: We`ve been said to be under the umbrella of suspicion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They do remain under an umbrella of suspicion.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Incorrect, inaccurate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Evidence (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Misleading.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was DNA that did not match any of the family members.
JOHN RAMSEY: Wrong statements that were out there. Anything that`s happened in the aftermath pales by comparison.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, Vegas. Midnight, a motorcycle cop pulls up to an intersection to waves of marijuana. It`s Paris Hilton, reeking of pot. It gets worse. In her pocketbook, cocaine. Defense? A, it`s not her purse, and B, Paris Hilton thought the drugs were gum. Yes, chewing gum. She says she thought the cocaine in her pocketbook was gum. Of course, even being a repeat offender, Paris Hilton walks free and pleads guilty to a misdemeanor.
Bombshell tonight. Just days after pleading guilty to cocaine possession, hotel heiress Paris Hilton in a late-night hit and run. We have the video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. Paris Hilton...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Paparazzi princess Paris Hilton.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And her boyfriend, Cy Waits.
PARIS HILTON, SOCIALITE: My boyfriend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were reportedly involved in a hit and run accident.
HILTON: I thought it was the most perfect thing for my brand.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Waits allegedly hits a photographer with his Bentley and then drives away.
HILTON: I hope that I`m an example to other young people.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: TMZ reporting paramedics were called to the scene and took the female photographer to the hospital.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa! Whoa!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re on her foot!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reportedly drove back to the scene sometime later without Paris Hilton.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could this girl get any more foolish?
HILTON: I`m happy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) what happened? And what did Paris Hilton see?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight in the case of 6-year-old beauty queen JonBenet Ramsey, found strangled, beaten to death, apparently the victim of a brutal sex assault all in the basement of her own Boulder, Colorado, home. Tonight, reports emerging Boulder police criss-crossing the country to question JonBenet`s brother Burke, only 9 years old at the time and there in the home the night little JonBenet was murdered. Tonight, why?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was never considered a serious suspect.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The infamous murder case.
PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) and our daughter`s gone!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the daughter`s been taken.
PATSY RAMSEY: She`s gone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was in the house when JonBenet was killed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators want to speak to the older brother, Burke.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some investigators are skeptical.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Burke is now 23 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What, if anything, he heard during the evening.
JOHN RAMSEY: Our daughter is in the hands of a monster.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What he saw and heard that morning.
PATSY RAMSEY: I don`t know if it`s a he or a she.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What he remembers.
PATSY RAMSEY: We -- we just got up, and she (INAUDIBLE) Oh, my God! Please!
Who would do such a thing to a child?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lin Wood, the attorney for the Ramsey family, says police want to meet with Burke, but so far they haven`t.
JOHN RAMSEY: Be patient, not to rush to judgment.
PATSY RAMSEY: I loved that child.
JOHN RAMSEY: Speculation and rumor and gossip and hearsay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Burke was just a little boy at the time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is strong DNA evidence in this case, but it`s not Ramsey DNA. It`s the DNA of the killer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Reportedly, police criss-crossing the country to speak to Burke Ramsey, just 9 years old, as I recall, at the time JonBenet was murdered.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": The reports out of Colorado are mixed. Some are saying they have gone out of the jurisdiction to talk to Burke, others saying Burke going to talk to them. I think the most credible source at this point, Nancy, is the family`s attorney, Lin Wood, that gave your a show a statement saying that several weeks ago, investigators, in fact, gave their card to Burke, inviting him to talk with them.
GRACE: And I`m sure that we are not going to get any kind of confirmation or corroboration about when and where that meeting has happened.
Everyone, tonight we have learned that JonBenet Ramsey`s case isn`t over yet. We have word that police criss-crossing the country to speak to then 9-year-old Burke. Does that make him a suspect? Absolutely not. Are they trying to jog his memory? At the time of the murder, many people bandied about the theory that Burke himself could be responsible for the murder.
But statistically -- out to you, Eleanor Odom -- that doesn`t even make sense.
ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: No, it doesn`t, and especially for a 9- year-old in this kind of brutal way that the child was murdered, it doesn`t make any sense. What makes sense is they want to talk to him now that he`s older, that he`s an adult, and see if he does remember anything.
GRACE: And also, Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer, whether he remembers something consciously or subconsciously, something about a family member, a neighbor, something he doesn`t want to remember.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right, Nancy, and that`s kind of the theory here, is that Burke may have information, may have seen something the day or the night before that he doesn`t think meant anything at the time, doesn`t think is important. And now they might be able to link that to some new information they`ve gotten. They`re still working this case, as far as we know.
GRACE: The case still troubling many, never a resolution to the short disappearance then murder of JonBenet Ramsey. She hadn`t gone far. According to the story of the parents, she was brutally murdered and sexually assaulted right there beneath them in their Boulder, Colorado, home.
We are taking your calls. Out to Kimberly in Arizona. Hi, Kimberly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, as far as -- I thought they cleared the whole family. And if that were the case, then would they have put him under possibly hypnosis to jog his memory, by chance?
GRACE: Good question. To Lawrence Schiller, author of "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town." What about it? What do you think, Lawrence?
LARRY SCHILLER, AUTHOR, "PERFECT MURDER, PERFECT TOWN": Well, number one, you have to look at the state of where the case is now. You know, as well as everybody else, there`s no statute of limitations on murder. This is a police department that was highly embarrassed when the murder took place. They weren`t prepared for it. They didn`t have the education, the knowledge on how to handle something like this. So they`re not going to give up on it. Any bit of evidence, any rumor, anything, they`re going to try to corroborate, not by one person, two or three.
So you don`t know what has triggered the police into this recent flurry of activity. You know, there`s still some footprints that are unidentified. Some have been identified. There`s a palm print and a fingerprint still unidentified. So there`s a lot of evidence that the police are still running down.
Look at the DNA. We don`t even know really if the DNA is from the perpetrator or if it was on her pants prior to the mixture of the blood that was excreted from her body. Maybe modern technology now, advancing so quickly, has given the police another answer to a question that they didn`t have before.
Now, the problem with Burke is really, very, very interesting. He was 9 years old at the time. He went through a trauma. He was not only interviewed by the police but he was interviewed by, I think, psychologists behind, you know, glass windows, where the police and the mother watched him. He was forced back into school with bodyguards within the weeks of the murder.
This is a kid who grew up out of a tragedy, and somebody like that takes the facts that he knows subconsciously or consciously, puts them in a room, closes the door to the room, and then forgets the room even existed. So the police have to have something really strong if they need him to corroborate it or to trigger his memory.
GRACE: You know, Lawrence Schiller, the caller, Kimberly in Arizona, asked a question. She based the question on a premise that the entire family had been cleared.
SCHILLER: Well, the police have cleared -- excuse me, the district attorney has cleared the police (SIC). You know, law enforcement does not, you know, pass judgment. They`re an investigative body that brings evidence together and presents it to the district attorney, or in some instances, a state attorney. So the police have never cleared anybody.
The district attorney has come to a conclusion, based upon the evidence that has been brought to the DA, that this family is not involved in the crime, not directly or indirectly. And in my opinion, I don`t believe Burke was capable of being involved, at least in certain aspects of it.
Look, the body was placed in the wine cellar. It wasn`t dragged in, it was placed there. There was dust all around. Then it was wrapped. So you know, a 9-year-old kid`s not going to be able to carry that body in and put it there. Now, maybe he saw something, his sister slipping in the bathroom, if he was awake, which I don`t think he was. You know, maybe he saw her bump her head. Maybe there is some other fact.
Because you have to remember, she did not die from the strangulation that many people think she did, by the garrote. She died by hemorrhaging in the brain because there was an injury to her that didn`t even break the skin. There was no outward bruising at all, and this was slow bleeding. And the cause of death was actually determined in the autopsy. It wasn`t determined, you know, at the crime scene.
GRACE: Well, you know, Lawrence Schiller, author of "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town," taking your calls tonight -- apparently, Boulder, Colorado, police criss-crossing the country to interview JonBenet`s now adult brother. Now, many people have long believed, including myself, that this boy, Burke Ramsey, nor his father had anything to do with the murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN RAMSEY: A note that said...
PATSY RAMSEY: They have your daughter.
JOHN RAMSEY: ... your daughter has been kidnapped. They have your daughter. They want money. You give us the money, she`ll be safely returned.
PATSY RAMSEY: We`ve been said to be under the umbrella of suspicion, whatever that means. It`s kind of no man`s land.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATSY RAMSEY: I ran back upstairs and pushed open her bedroom door, and she was gone.
911 OPERATOR: Do you know how long she`s been gone?
PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don`t! Please! We just got up and she wasn`t here! Oh, my God! Please!
911 OPERATOR: OK. Calm...
PATSY RAMSEY: Please send somebody!
911 OPERATOR: I am, honey.
JOHN RAMSEY: A uniformed police officer arrived relatively quickly, and I said -- I handed him the note and I said, My daughter`s been taken. He said, You don`t think she just ran away? And I said, For heavens sakes, she`s 6 years old, no, she didn`t just run away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wants the person who brutally murdered his daughter to be brought to justice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now an expert on the infamous murder case says investigators want to speak to her older brother. His name is Burke. Police may want to ask him if he saw something that could help them piece together new information.
PATSY RAMSEY: There is a killer on the loose.
JOHN RAMSEY: Absolutely.
PATSY RAMSEY: I don`t know who it is. I don`t know if it`s a he or a she. But if I were a resident of Boulder, I would tell my friends to keep...
JOHN RAMSEY: It`s OK.
PATSY RAMSEY: Keep your babies close to you! There`s someone out there!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Now, all these years following the short disappearance of JonBenet Ramsey and her death, her body found downstairs in a wine cellar- type room in the basement as her family lay sleeping upstairs -- now police hone in on Burke Ramsey, then just 9 years old and living in the home when his sister was murdered.
I want to go to you, Eleanor Odom. Let`s just unleash all the lawyers -- Eleanor Odom, felony prosecutor, death penalty-qualified, Atlanta, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta.
Eleanor, number one, just -- I remember at the time, there was a whole cadre of people that insisted Burke had something to do with it, was guilty of JonBenet`s murder. That is absolutely ridiculous! I remember, at the time, Burke was a very slight little boy. He was pale, devastated at the time at what all was going on, and just in this crush scrutiny. There was no way that little boy had anything to do with this. I mean, many experts have long ruled out either the little boy or the father.
Now, I want you to address what Larry Schiller said about the blow to the head as the real cause of death.
ELEANOR ODOM: Yes, Nancy, and it`s no surprise that there`s no bruising on the head because with abusive head trauma, all it takes is one, maybe two very sharp blows to the head, taking the child and throwing her up against a hard object -- could be anything. This wouldn`t cause bruising, but it would cause internal breeding, what we call the subdural hemorrhaging and sub-arachnoid hemorrhaging. It`s non-accidental trauma.
GRACE: Peter Odom, question to you. Why now? What can they hope to gain by tracking down Burke Ramsey and questioning him again, besides stirring all of this back up for him?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, he`s an adult now. He`s much more mature. He might remember something that is of significance. There might be things that he did not think were significant then that now come to light. I mean, his -- whatever he says is going to be suspect if he`s ever put on the witness stand. They`re not looking to make a witness out of him. They`re looking to see if there`s any shred that they might use to corroborate any other evidence. And the passage of time...
GRACE: Why are you saying, Peter Odom, that anything he said will be suspect? I don`t agree with that.
PETER ODOM: Not suspect because of his credibility, just because of the passage of time.
GRACE: You know, Renee Rockwell, there was a period of time, I would say, when they first started exploring and trying to use recovered memories, OK? It`s not so unusual now, recovered memories. You don`t really even have to go under hypnosis, but yes, you can. It`s not that -- in fact it`s generally accepted that crime victims -- he is a crime victim...
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, because he could be blocking something.
GRACE: ... very often have lost their memory. Yes. It`s very common, actually.
ROCKWELL: And it`s very typical in any kind of therapy, when you have any kind of trauma, you`re working through something, they`ll get you and they`ll bring you back, and maybe they`ll find something. But Nancy, is it too little, too late? Did they bungle this up initially? I don`t know, if that was my client, if I`d even let him talk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATSY RAMSEY: We now have pretty (ph) irrefutable DNA evidence. I did not kill my daughter, JonBenet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Apparently, this DNA evidence does not match any of the Ramsey family members.
PATSY RAMSEY: I did not kill JonBenet.
JOHN RAMSEY: Based on that, certainly could not have been involved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are plenty of pictures of the smiling family, John and Patsy Ramsey.
JOHN RAMSEY: Crushed by the loss of our child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Six-year-old JonBenet.
PATSY RAMSEY: Who did this?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And her 9-year-old brother, Burke.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was just 9 when his little sister, JonBenet Ramsey, was killed.
PATSY RAMSEY: We have a kidnapping! Hurry, please!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Ramseys` attorney, Lin Wood, says investigators want to meet with Burke but haven`t yet.
JOHN RAMSEY: It`s hard for people to accept, I think, that someone would come into a home and murder a child.
PATSY RAMSEY: Keep your babies close to you!
We would like to think that we don`t know anyone that we have ever met in our lives who could do such a thing to a child, you know? But they talked with us and said, Please tell us names of people, you know, who may have been in your home at any time, you know, just -- we just outpoured information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Deborah in Montana. Hi, Deborah.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Nancy, I just wanted to say that, you know, in the world that there`s so much crime, it is so nice to have someone like you in it.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know? You are just wonderful, wonderful! But I was wondering...
GRACE: Thank you. I don`t deserve that, but I appreciate it. What is your question, love?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering, where does the son live now? And have they ever tried hypnosis on him?
GRACE: I believe he lives in Atlanta. To Larry Schiller, who wrote "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town." He`s a contributor with The Daily Beast. He`s the founder of the Norman Mailer Center and Writers Colony. Larry, where is Burke now?
SCHILLER: Well, I mean, I think as a young man, he`s probably around -- going to a job on a daily basis. He`s got a social life. I don`t -- even if I knew where he lived, I do not believe I`d reveal it on TV because he`s entitled to his privacy.
GRACE: He really is.
SCHILLER: You know, he -- right.
GRACE: He certainly is, especially after everything that he`s been through. But it`s my understanding he has gone on to college.
SCHILLER: Right.
GRACE: He has graduated.
SCHILLER: Right.
GRACE: I`m sure he`s out in the workforce. I`m pretty sure they moved away from Boulder, Colorado.
SCHILLER: No, there`s no question. They moved away right away. You know, the family originally came from Atlanta, but they vacationed up in Michigan and -- you know, and other parts of the United States. So John Ramsey actually for many, many years lived up in, I think, Wisconsin or Michigan and even ran for political office at one point while his son was going to school. You know, they wanted to regain their privacy, which they were entitled to.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATSY RAMSEY: (INAUDIBLE) at least two people on the face of this earth that know who did this, and that is the killer and someone that that person may have confided in. And we need that one phone call. We need the one phone call to this number that will help the authorities come to a conclusion.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: JonBenet`s body was found in their family home in Boulder, Colorado back on December 26th, the day after Christmas, in 1996. Since then the family has been under fire and grilled for being possibly attached to the murder of their daughter.
JOHN RAMSEY: I did not kill my daughter JonBenet.
PATSY RAMSEY: I did not kill JonBenet. I did not have anything to do with it. I loved that child.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police want to talk to the brother about what he remembers that day. He was in the home the night JonBenet Ramsey died. There has been speculation about his involvement in her death.
Laurence Schiller said DNA has exonerated her brother.
J. RAMSEY: It`s hard for people to accept I think that someone who would come into a home and murder a child from her bed. And we were -- perhaps an answer.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls. Back to the lawyers, Eleanor Odom, Renee Rockwell, Peter Odom.
You know, Renee, you said something that I just don`t think is legally accurate. Burke Ramsey is not a target of this investigation. He has the right --
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I didn`t say he was a target.
GRACE: As I was saying.
ROCKWELL: Sorry.
GRACE: You said, if I were his lawyer I`d tell him not to talk to police. He doesn`t have a constitutional right not to talk to police. If you are a target, or you`re a defendant or a suspect, then you have that right. Not if you`re just a witness.
ROCKWELL: I understand. But let me just -- if I can bring you back 14 years ago. One thing that I remember about this case that was very interesting, the first time we see -- these are well-to-do people.
Do you recall, Nancy, when they lawyered up? These people, these victims got attorneys, and it got the police so confused that I think it diverted the police and all of a sudden the parents became suspects.
The police -- who knows if they would have -- had they focused on the investigation instead of putting all the heat on the parents, who knows if they might not have gotten the killers?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK.
ROCKWELL: I just think that it`s too little too late.
GRACE: That has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked you.
Weigh-in, Peter Odom.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy --
GRACE: Yes?
P. ODOM: The people that got lawyers ended up being suspected by the parents --
GRACE: OK, you know what?
P. ODOM: -- who got lawyers and are being suspected, and that threw the focus off.
GRACE: Thanks, Renee and Peter. But --
P. ODOM: That`s true.
GRACE: Eleanor, if you`re a target or you`re a suspect or you`re a defendant, you have the right to refuse police commissioning. Otherwise, no.
ELEANOR ODOM, PROSECUTOR: That`s right. And remember the grand jury can subpoena people, too. If the grand jury is doing an investigation, and you have to show up.
GRACE: Out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers." You know, Bethany -- Dr. Bethany, police apparently going to great pains to try to locate and talk to this young boy.
Now JonBenet Ramsey was murdered many, many years ago, 1996. Burke Ramsey now the focus of police, not as a suspect or a defendant.
What could he possibly know, Dr. Bethany?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, Nancy, I think the idea of repressed recovered memories is highly unlikely in this case.
First of all, that phenomena is extremely rare. The data shows us 1 in 10 victims of extreme sexual abuse do disassociate but then they usually have disassociative disorder in childhood. And usually when they`re under the age of 5 and they are raised by mothers who do not support the idea that they`ve been abused.
This child was 9 years old. He had plenty of support. His parents were supportive. He had the opportunity to tell and retell the story. He`s gone on to call the gender work and social life so he does not have a disassociative phenomena.
The only thing that they`ll learn is if he has a different perspective at this point in life and remembers someone who could be a perpetrator.
GRACE: Back to Larry Schiller. Larry, you know the case as well as - - or better than a lot of the cops on the case.
What do you make of it, Larry?
LARRY SCHILLER, AUTHOR OF "PERFECT MURDER, PERFECT TOWN": Look, let`s just speculate. I mean, pure speculation. I think it`s really corroboration. How do you know the police haven`t found a shoe somewhere that matches one of the non-identified shoeprints in the basement?
I think there`s still one print that hasn`t been identified.
Maybe they want to show them the shoe and say, do you know whose shoe this might be? Do you have any idea, a friend of yours, a visitor, somebody who`s at the party the week before?
You know, that might be what they`re looking for. I`m not saying that it`s a shoe, but I`m using that as an example. I think at this point the only thing that Burke Ramsey can give to this case is corroboration.
And how do you know they`re not also talking to the father just because the story leaked about this -- the brother? How do you know they`re not talking to Fleet White or other people that were involved in this case?
GRACE: I don`t know, that`s why I`ve got you on the show.
SCHILLER: Exactly right. Well --
GRACE: So you can inform us about anything that you may know.
SCHILLER: I don`t think --
GRACE: We do know they`re trying to talk to Burke Ramsey.
SCHILLER: Right.
GRACE: That`s all we know right now.
SCHILLER: And he`s not going to be the only one they`re going to talking to because you cannot -- you cannot find the solution to this case with one person.
GRACE: Larry, what is the status of police lie detectors that were administered around the time of the death? Who in the Ramsey family took lie detectors?
SCHILLER: Well, the Ramseys took polygraph tests, I think, if my memory is right, 14 years ago, about three months or four months after. And they completely were cleared. Then they took polygraph tests --
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, wait. I -- as I recall, the father passed his polygraph. I don`t recall Burke was given a polygraph so young.
SCHILLER: Oh no, I`m sorry.
GRACE: I recall that --
SCHILLER: I don`t think -- I didn`t know you were asking about Burke. Burke was never given a polygraph. No. Never.
GRACE: I -- as I -- as I recall it, Patsy Ramsey`s polygraph was inconclusive by police. She went on to take a private polygraph.
SCHILLER: And then she was polygraphed again. OK? Years later.
GRACE: Privately.
SCHILLER: Privately. And --
GRACE: But what about the police polygraph for keeps?
SCHILLER: Well, at firs the police said it was inconclusive, but later on it was revealed when independent experts looked at that polygraph, and in fact it was more likely she was telling the truth than she was not telling the truth.
I mean, it`s very fair. Look, we had a police department that was very, very conservative. Ex-narcotics detectives that had no criminal homicide experience, and they thought if that they could take the family, get them in jail, you know, they put them under pressure, somebody might break.
GRACE: Right.
SCHILLER: And that`s the way they operated on this case for a long period of time.
GRACE: Out to Andrew --
(CROSSTALK)
SCHILLER: Finally, the DA said, hey, you got to give these people their constitutional rights and that`s when the battle broke out.
GRACE: Out to Andrew J. Scott, former chief of police, Boca Raton, president of AJS Consulting.
Andrew, is there really anyway to put it back together again?
ANDREW J. SCOTT, FMR. CHIEF OF POLICE, BOCA RATON, FL.; PRESIDENT, AJS CONSULTING: Yes, I think there is, Nancy. And there`s something that we really should focus on as to what the Boulder Police Department is doing. And that is, a good police department that has a -- any homicide has a cold case.
And during the course of the years, cold cases are reviewed by different experienced investigators. And from that, this may very well be as a result of cold case investigators looking at the case with fresh eyes, recognizing that they need to be able to -- they need to be able to get additional information. And obviously, the brother is one of those avenues.
GRACE: To Dr. Michael Hunter, chief medical examiner, Panama City, Florida, forensic pathologist, he`s joining us via Skype. You know, investigators did find unknown male DNA on JonBenet`s clothing.
Many experts believe that DNA was there prior to the killing, whether it be in the manufacturing phase, the handling phase. Some other phase of the underwear`s production before it made it to the home. Is that possible?
DR. MICHAEL HUNTER, M.D., CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, PANAMA CITY, FL.; FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Yes, it`s really not. I mean the thing about DNA is it`s very susceptible to detergent. Detergent is a great way to degrade DNA. So if it goes through the detergent, took the washing cycle, you`re going to be -- you`re not going to be able to extract DNA prior to that point.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J. RAMSEY: We lost our daughter. That`s the worst possible thing that could have happened to us. Anything that has happened in the aftermath pales by comparison.
P. RAMSEY: We would like to say that we don`t know anyone that we have ever met in our lives who could do such a thing to a child.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re on her foot.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Just days after Paris Hilton cops a plea deal to keep her out of jail on felony drug charges --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The chief was very serious. You understand me.
PARIS HILTON, HOTEL HEIRESS: Yes, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She`s back in the headlines again.
HILTON: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Reportedly involved in a hit-and-run with boyfriend Cy Waits. Driving Paris Hilton in his six-figure Bentley. Cy Waits reportedly tries to make a speedy getaway from photographers, but allegedly slams into a woman, knocking her down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hit-and-run. Hit-and-run.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: RadarOnline reporting cops were seen questioning Weights and allegedly gave him a field sobriety test. The woman attended to by paramedics transported to the hospital.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now, Alexis Tereszcuk, reporter, Radaronline.com, there near the scene of the hit-and-run. Why can`t she just go to jail and stay? Why?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER, RADAROLINE.COM: I am not the judge, I think that she is maybe the luckiest person alive. She got out of -- she was in possession of cocaine. She lied to a police officer and she got nothing. She got community service, a $2,000 fine, which to Paris is like the same as $2 to me, and she`s out again at one of the fanciest restaurants in Los Angeles having dinner with friends.
She leaves. Of course she`s surrounded by a swarm of paparazzi. She`s again with the boyfriend who was driving, who was the one that got her in trouble in the first place. Who got in trouble with her in the first place.
And they hit a woman, a female woman who`s a paparazzi. Pulled over, he banged up her legs. She was transported to the hospital. He left the scene, and then he said he got some text messages from some people. I can only imagine from the paparazzi that they normally talk to.
And he came back. The police were called by the paparazzi that was hit. And they gave him a field sobriety test, but he passed, he was fine. He was given a citation. But it was a hit-and-run.
GRACE: Alexis Tereszcuk, did you just say she hit a female woman?
TERESZCUK: Did I say female and woman? She hit a female photographer.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." You know, Jean, I would ask you to review her wrap sheet, to go through it, I don`t know if you have time now. But just give it -- give it a try, Jean.
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Why don`t I give you the most pertinent part?
GRACE: OK.
CASAREZ: She just pleaded guilty to two misdemeanors in the state of Nevada. Possession of cocaine and obstruction of an officer line. But here`s the clincher, for the next year, she`s on probation, if she`s arrested, Nancy, in the next year, not formally charged with anything, but arrested, she goes to the Clark County Detention Center for a year.
And I think that`s the point of this whole story. What involvement did she have? Are investigators talking to her? And ultimately, could she be arrested for anything, if in fact this was a hit-and-run?
GRACE: Back to you, Alexis Tereszcuk. What exactly happened?
TERESZCUK: Now Paris and her boyfriend were in the car, which is a Bentley. It`s over a $100,000 car. They were leaving the restaurant where they had dinner. They were surrounded by photographers on both sides. Photographers were taking pictures.
Her boyfriend tried to drive away very quickly. And as he pulled forward, he hit the woman who fell on the ground. He hit her leg. It was on his right front tire. He actually rolled down the window and said, hey, is she OK? And some of the photographers there said she`s fine, go, go, go.
He didn`t get out of the car to see if she was OK. He didn`t ask anybody -- he just asked a photographer. Rolled up the window and drove away. So then he came back, he said -- as I said, he got some text messages. But really the only people there were the photographers so one of them must have texted him. And he came back and spoke to the police who cited him for the hit-and-run.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Lisa in Tennessee. Hi, Lisa.
LISA, CALLER FROM TENNESSEE: Hello, Nancy. Yes, I have a question. I`ve had family members and I`ve ha friends that have been picked up on numerous occasions for DUI.
And I would like to know how in this world she keeps getting out of this? Anybody else -- just because she`s wealthy and has a lot of money, her family, how she can keep getting out and don`t have to go to jail.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. She`s right. Eleanor Odom, Renee Rockwell, Peter Odom.
What about it, Eleanor?
E. ODOM: Well, of course she`s right. I`ve prosecuted many DUIs and traffic offenses. You mess up one time and the judge revokes your case, and you`re back in jail. Not so in this situation. I guess fame does talk.
GRACE: My question, Peter, is how does a possession of cocaine which is a felony get reduced to a misdemeanor?
P. ODOM: Happens every day, Nancy. I mean this is a very low-level offense in Nevada. It`s got just a couple years maximum. She pleads guilty to the felony. Plea bargains result in things getting reduced all the time every day. Ninety percent of cases get resolved with a plea bargain.
Why do the prosecutors who just want to throw everybody in jail and somehow think that`s going to solve everything? A judge had a chance to approve this plea bargain, said it was the right thing that happened.
GRACE: Hey, Peter.
P. ODOM: And I don`t -- and there`s not --
GRACE: Peter, Peter, Peter.
P. ODOM: And she had been --
GRACE: Peter, Peter, Peter. Don`t make me cut your mike.
P. ODOM: Nancy.
GRACE: OK? All I asked you was how do you reduce the crime on a felony to a misdemeanor. I didn`t mean to launch a sermon. OK.
P. ODOM: By plea bargain.
GRACE: Yes, I heard you, thanks.
Dr. Bethany, what does this mean to everybody else when they get arrested and they get treated like the rest of us? When they get jail time or they get, you know, hours and hours and hours of community service or their case is not reduced to a misdemeanor from a felony?
MARSHALL: Well, what it means is that there are a lot of addicts out there that are watching Paris Hilton and they`re telling themselves, well, if she got off, I can get off, too. And that increases their tendency towards substance abuse.
But I thought there is at least one person in Paris Hilton`s life who is very concerned about her substance abuse, and that person would like to see her get treatment. And now that person has lost their leverage because of our legal system.
When our legal system lets a celebrity off like Paris Hilton, the entire family, the family, who loves the perpetrator and wants the addict to get help, loses their leverage to get that person into treatment. And that`s what I think is sad about this story.
GRACE: We have the video of the alleged hit-and-run. You`re seeing it right now.
I want to go back to you, Alexis Tereszcuk. Isn`t it true that after standing by her through thick and thin, her parents have finally had it on this last cocaine arrest?
TERESZCUK: Absolutely. Paris` family is really unhappy with her. They just -- they don`t understand why it has to keep happening. I`m sure that the image that they want to portray to the public is it`s not Paris` fault. But behind the scenes we learned that everybody is very, very concerned with Paris and really just ready for her to straighten up.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Gina in Georgia, hi, Gina.
GINA, CALLER FROM GEORGIA: Hi, Nancy. I`m so glad to be able to talk to you.
GRACE: Likewise.
GINA: My mother -- my mother both love you and thank you for what you do for the kids out there.
GRACE: Thank you.
GINA: And I just want to know, is it Paris been busted once before for cocaine?
GRACE: Yes. That`s right. What about it, Jean?
CASAREZ: That`s right. It was originally a felony, it was Southern California. She pleaded no contest to reckless driving and served a bit of time in jail, was released and then put back in by the judge.
GRACE: Andrew Scott, if she were anybody else what would the sentence have been on this now her I guess third or fourth offense?
SCOTT: There is no doubt that she would have received some jail time, mandatory drug rehabilitation, probation or all three at the same time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Paris!
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Paris Hilton has gotten away with a lot.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Preferential treatment for her.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Over and over and over, she does things. Her antics and, you know, she has broken the law quite a bit and she`s always kind of gotten away with it.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Trouble, trouble, trouble.
HILTON: Because I love it.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Yes?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Paris Hilton and her boyfriend Cy Waits were reportedly involved in a hit-and-run accident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our main concern is that Miss Hilton stay out of trouble.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Driving Paris Hilton in his six-figure Bentley. Cy Waits allegedly hits a photographer and then drives away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stay out of trouble.
HILTON: Hi.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hit-and-run. Hit-and-run.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Paris Hilton involved in a hit-and-run last night, this after just a couple of days ago pleading guilty on possession of cocaine in Vegas.
To Dr. Michael Hunter, chief medical examiner, Panama City, joining us via Skype. There from the morgue.
Dr. Hunter, how do you -- you`ve looked at this video over and over. What`s the likely damage to this photographer?
HUNTER: You know, if she had been a little bit more in front of that vehicle and had her foot planted and had a bumper strike her, she may have really serious injuries. She would typically have, say, a bumper fracture.
But I think her injuries are probably quite minor if she is able to simply kind of walk and move from that scene. I think it`s probably pretty minimal.
GRACE: What about Cy Waits? He was given a field sobriety test and he passed. What about the time that passed between the hit-and-run and him coming back to the scene?
HUNTER: Yes, you know, that`s a big deal. An hour is a lot of time if you`re metabolizing either alcohol or drug. So that`s not the same person that would have got that sobriety test earlier. So you have to take that into consideration. But that`s what happened. He left the scene and he had some benefit from that.
GRACE: Everybody, let`s stop and remember Air Force Staff Sergeant Casey Crate, 26, Spanaway, Washington, killed Iraq. Awarded several medals, Bronze Star, National Defense Service medal.
Loved sports, swimming, water skiing. A black belt in Tae Kwon Do. Loves art and model airplanes, cars. Leaves behind mother Linda, grandmother Zelda, Aunt Sherry, Uncles Bob and Scott.
Casey Crate, American hero.
Thank you to our guests but especially to you for being with us and happy birthday to Michigan friend Sandra.
Happy birthday, Sandra.
And thank you to St. Simons Sweets for the basket of treats for Lucy and John David. And a special good-bye tonight to the Liberace Museum closing in Vegas after 30 years because of declining revenue.
Now that is a crime. I spent hours in the Liberace Museum. Laugh if you want.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
