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Miners' Rescue Imminent; Educational Trailblazer; HIV and the Church; Explosives Found in NYC Cemetery; Building Up Dirty Jobs; Top Ten Jobs; XYZ: National Coming Out Day

Aired October 11, 2010 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: All right. It's a new hour. I'm Ali Velshi. Let me tell you what I've got on the "Rundown" right now.

Marijuana on the ballot in several states. Could buying pot become as easy as picking up a pack of cigarettes in at least one of them?

Also, the guy who made dirty jobs famous on a mission to make sure stimulus jobs are available for people who need them most.

And how good is your job? The list of best American jobs is out. We'll see if yours makes the cut.

But the saga of those 33 trapped miners may soon come to a very triumphant end. We've been following this saga since the beginning.

Rescuers in northern Chile are expected to begin a risky and dangerous operation to pull the miners to the surface on Wednesday or Thursday. Their ordeal of surviving half a mile underground for more than two months has captivated the entire world.

One of the final pieces of the rescue plan was put into place today with the installation of steel tubing to reinforce the top 290 feet of the rescue shaft. Now, it's needed there because the rock and dirt are more likely to come loose and fall on to the rescue capsule.

This diagram shows how the miners became trapped in the first place. You can see there -- we'll just push into that -- where the collapse was. So they couldn't get out. They went further down and found themselves in a space about the size of a living room.

This happened on August 5th during a partial cave-in. The miners got into that living-room-sized area -- it's sort of a shelter -- and that's where they've been ever since.

Now, they've been getting stuff through a lifeline shaft. So it's not the shaft that's rescuing them, which is on the right. It's that middle one. It's about a four-inch shaft which has been used to funnel food, water, medicine and other supplies to them.

At the same time, workers began drilling the rescue shaft. They broke through on Saturday after weeks and weeks of drilling.

The rescue shaft broke through to the miners. Celebrations erupted both down in the bottom and above ground where family members have been camped from day one for the day when their loved ones will be brought to the surface.

This animation which you're looking at shows how the rescue operation is supposed to work. The rescue capsule will be lowered to the mine. The people get in it.

It's got oxygen in it. It's got communications equipment. It's got an escape hatch if things don't work out. They can go back down to the bottom.

It's only 21 inches in diameter. One miner at a time will be lifted to the surface in a journey that will take about 20 minutes. As it's pulled up, the capsule is expect to rotate 10 or 12 times before it gets there.

Patrick Oppmann is on the scene for us. He will be on the scene for us as well when this all happens.

Patrick, tell me something. I'm just trying to get my hand around all that's going on. Is it relevant that this capsule is going to rotate as it brings these miners up?

PATRICK OPPMANN, CNN ALL-PLATFORM JOURNALIST: Absolutely, because that's one of the issues the miners face, is nausea. They'll be spinning. Slowly, but still spinning. That's one of the reasons they're putting them on a liquid diet, something that the NASA space agency recommended.

As you know, they had some NASA isolation experts down here, Ali, last month. They were extremely helpful to the Chilean government. It's really never dealt with a mine rescue on this size. And frankly, NASA has said they've never dealt with men suffering isolation quite this long. They said that trained astronauts have trouble with this kind of isolation in space.

Imagine how miners, fairly simple men, some with very little education. But they've withstood it, they've held up.

And Ali, if you think, in 48 hours you and I could be watching pictures -- we plan to be watching pictures of these miners coming to the surface live. What a day that will be not just for the rescue workers, not just for the world, but these men's families.

I've spent quite a bit of time with many of these men's families. They're on pins and needles the last few days.

They're writing their last letters. They're able to send letters down to that same shaft that you were discussing a moment ago, and they're sending last letters to these men before they come to the surface. And many of the men are sending letters back to them, letters they want to keep from their families, keepsakes that they've had throughout this ordeal, little things that they've made in the mine that they want to have afterwards to remind them of their ordeal.

They're not going to be able to take those things with them on the rescue capsule. They're sending them up now.

Ali, they're making their final preparations before they get that first breath of freedom, that first hug with a loved one. They're getting ready to come home.

VELSHI: Patrick, it's going to be incredible. We'll watch it together. It's going to be incredible to see, not just that that first one, but every one of them coming out after that, and then finally that last one, and to see this ordeal that the world has been watching come to an end.

Patrick, thanks very much. We will check in with you constantly.

Patrick Oppmann, part of our team in Chile.

All right. He's already been called a loose cannon. Now Carl Paladino, the Republican candidate for New York governor, is being blasted again. This time for comments on homosexuality.

A chunk of yesterday's speech and today's defense of it is our "Sound Effect."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARL PALADINO (R), NEW YORK GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE: And don't misquote me as wanting to hurt homosexual people in any way. That would be a dastardly lie.

My approach is live and let live. I just think my children and your children will be much better off and much more successful getting married and raising a family. And I don't want them to be brainwashed into thinking that homosexuality is an equally valid or successful option. It isn't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PALADINO: And that remark has to do with schooling children. My feelings on homosexuality are unequivocal. I have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever.

My only reservation is marriage. That's the only reservation I have. I have a lot of homosexuals working in my organization.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELSHI: All right. Now, in both of those conversations, Paladino slammed his opponent, Democrat Andrew Cuomo, for bringing his kids to a Gay Pride Parade. So, despite the fact that Paladino says he has got no problem with homosexuality except gay marriage, he said behavior at those parades is "disgusting."

In response, the Cuomo campaign accused him of "a stunning homophobia and a glaring disregard for basic equality." All of this coming on the heels of a brutal anti-gay series of hate crimes in New York City and a string of suicides after anti-gay bullying.

OK. A fascinating story coming up. He was the youngest dean of students in the history of Boston University, one of the first black administrators at a traditionally white South African university. Now Ronald Carter is a U.S. university president, and he's got some strong ideas about the future of education.

I talked to him last time. Now I'll talk to him with you when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: A couple of days ago I was in Charlotte, North Carolina, having a conversation as part of the Alliance for Digital Equality. It was a conversation about giving everybody fair and affordable access to the Internet so that they can prosper.

And the discussion sort of turned around the fact that access to the Internet today is like access to water or electricity was decades ago. And I got into a conversation with the president of the university that was hosting the event, Johnson C. Smith in Charlotte, North Carolina. The president, Ronald Carter, and I got into a conversation about what really needs to be done to make education better and more fair for people, and I wanted to continue that conversation with the president here on my show because every day we do "Chalk Talk" and we talk about the issues facing public education.

President, thank you very much for being with us. It was great to talk to you then. I'm glad to continue our conversation here.

You were counterintuitive at a conference which said we can narrow the gap, we can level the playing field for a lot of minorities, for a lot of disadvantaged students, if everybody has access to the Internet. And I don't think you necessarily disagreed with the idea that everybody should, but you brought up the point that that's not going to solve a very fundamental problem we have in preparing kids for a proper education not just in science and technology and engineering and math, but a proper education in general.

Pick up where we left off.

RONALD CARTER, PRESIDENT, JOHNSON C. SMITH UNIVERSITY: OK. Well, good afternoon, Ali. Thank you for having me on.

I deeply believe that we must accept the fact that digital communication technologies do not occur in a vacuum, they are not autonomous. They occur in a social context. And my concern is that if we are not teaching our young people how to read effectively, how to become critical thinkers, how to negotiate complex ideas, all the technology in the world will not get us where we want to be at the end of the day because we are talking about individuals who think. VELSHI: You have got to draw (ph) for Johnson C. Smith University on a varied and diverse group of students. They come from high schools, and many of them come from public high schools.

What can the high schools be doing better to prepare them to get the most out of an undergraduate college experience like the one that you offer?

CARTER: Well, it doesn't just start with the high schools. And again, this is one of my concerns.

We have a tendency to talk in abstracts. We abstract the high school from the middle school, from the elementary school from Pre-K:, and from the parents. We have to look at this holistically.

We've got to begin to ask, how do we connect the dots from the time a child is born to the time we want that child to graduate with some purpose, some value claim for education? As long as we do not do that, then we will graduate students from high school who cannot think in a very critical fashion.

So, I would say it is the responsibility of a parent to begin to talk to their children in full sentences, to teach them spatial concepts so that they can begin to negotiate complex ideas. We have to have something to work on.

So it has to be a continuum that is connected, it is tightly connected, so that by the time we graduate a student ready for college, that student is a very critical thinker, that student knows how to deal with complex issues, that student knows how to negotiate a formula if A is to the right of B and B is to the right of C, what is the relationship of A to C?

VELSHI: And how best have you seen that work? In other words, it is a continuum, you have to connect the dots. But when you see students who are so well prepared to come into your university or others, and they graduate well with a degree that adds value to the rest of their lives, what would you say has worked properly for them? What's the combination of what happens at home versus what happens in Pre-k and primary school and secondary school?

CARTER: Well, one, I note that the parents or the parent is engaged in the education of their children.

Two, they have been taught by mentors. You can always ask a young person about, who were your mentors in elementary school, or middle school or high school? When they can talk about mentors who helped them stay on their growing edge, that impacts as well.

And then, ,what are they doing in terms of extracurricular activities, co-curricular activities? How engaged are they in community?

These are some of the non-cognitive variables that I think impact on the quality of students and their appreciation for learning. That's what we're trying to do. We want students to come into a situation where they really want to learn, they see a value claim for learning.

Then we can take it from there. But it's the motivation that counts.

VELSHI: Motivation and non-cognitive variables. I love it.

Ronald Carter, thank you, because we have this conversation so often. We'd like you to join us on a more regular basis to help us advance this conversation.

It's very easy to look at it in abstractions and blame one constituent group or another but, really, educating our kids is a much more sophisticated and complicated ordeal than that. So thank you for bringing that to our attention.

CARTER: Thank you.

VELSHI: Ronald Carter the president of the Johnson C. Smith University in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Hey, take a look over there behind me. Take a look at the Big Board.

The Dow is above 11,000, up about 10 points to 11,016. It closed for the first time above 11,000 points, the first time since May. It closed on Friday.

Don't get too carried away with the number, 11,000. It's just a number. It's a big, round number. No big deal.

What you should know about is we had unemployment numbers on Friday. They weren't good. They were bad. But the private sector did actually create some jobs.

The government is getting out of the business of creating jobs, as so many people of America have asked them to do, and that causes some problems. But there is some hope that the Federal Reserve may continue to get involved to prop this economy up.

By the way, for those of you who don't like government intervention, that is a form of intervention. It's still your money.

We'll talk about that a lot more, but there's your market right now.

We'll take a break. I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

VELSHI: And nearly half of the people living with HIV in this country are African-Americans, yet most black churches in the U.S. rarely discuss the issue.

Here's CNN's Soledad O'Brien. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Two illnesses threaten Jeffrey Gavin. His church knows only about one.

JEFFREY GAVIN, MEMBER, FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH: I have what's called Marfan Syndrome. That makes me very tall. I'm constantly in pain. I don't have the gene that produces connective tissue.

O'BRIEN: He feels compelled to tell his pastor, Buster Soaries, the rest of his story.

GAVIN: No longer am I dying from Marfans, but I'm living with HIV.

O'BRIEN: Jay Gavin, as his friends know him, found out he was HIV positive four years ago. He's never mentioned it in church. Keeping that kind of a secret is common in the African-American community.

REV. DEFOREST "BUSTER" SOARIES, SENIOR PASTOR, FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH: If the average person in this church knew how many people they interacted with in this church who were HIV positive, it would be scandalous.

O'BRIEN: Pastor Soaries doesn't know Gavin's HIV status yet. Gavin's going to tell him today. Gavin knows he's not alone. Statistically in his church of 7,000 people, there should be about 100 other members with the disease.

The CDC says it's the stigma in the African-American community that's putting many blacks at higher risk of contracting the disease. Nearly half of the people living with HIV in the United States are African-American.

GAVIN: Hi, how are you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, how are you?

GAVIN: Good.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good.

GAVIN: Jeffrey Gavin for Pastor. I have a 4:00 meeting with him.

O'BRIEN: Gavin is gay and contracted HIV from sex, but the message he wants to send to his community is everyone can get it.

SOARIES: How are you doing, man?

GAVIN: Thank you so much -- well, thank you for this.

SOARIES: How are you doing?

O'BRIEN: After an hour-long meeting, they finally emerge. SOARIES: Man.

GAVIN: Thank you so much.

O'BRIEN: You look so relieved.

GAVIN: I am. I want to shout for joy because I see the avenue that this is leading to.

O'BRIEN: Gavin sees himself as an ambassador leading open discussions, but his pastor has a more tempered response.

SOARIES: Whether or not he is a symbol of something that can be healthy for the church and inspiring for people who are HIV positive, I think that remains to be seen.

O'BRIEN: Regardless of the outcome, Gavin says he'll keep pushing.

Reporting for "In America," Soledad O'Brien, Somerset, New Jersey.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELSHI: The black church has fought for civil and human rights, and now it's waging a war on debt. You don't want to miss "Almighty Debt," a "Black in America Special," coming Thursday, October 21st at 9:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.

All right. Buying marijuana could become as easy as buying a pack of cigarettes at the corner. After the break we'll take you to the state where it might happen in less than a month.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: Twenty-two days until Election Day here in this country. One of the always controversial items on the ballot in some states, legalizing marijuana.

Joe Johns, part of "The Best Political Team on Television," gives us a tour of the states in question and shows how you could soon be able to buy pot as easily as you buy cigarettes and liquor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Not one, not two, not three, but four states have initiatives on the ballot this fall that would change their marijuana laws in big ways. And one of those initiatives, the one in California -- Proposition 19 it's called -- would pretty much legalize retail sales of the drug for recreational use.

That's right. If the voters go for it, what once was called the gateway drug, the so-called evil weed that led to cocaine, heroin, ruined lives, and sent thousands upon thousands to jail could that suddenly, after all these years, become OK to do for fun in California.

The three other states with pending legislation, Oregon, South Dakota, and Arizona, are looking to either legalize marijuana for medical purposes or to modify the medical marijuana laws they already have in place. It turns out coast to coast, 14 states and the District of Columbia already allow medical use, which is something a former national anti-drug czar sees as a problem. To him, this stuff is like booze, and if legalized, it'll have the same negative effect on society.

JOHN WALTERS, THE HUDSON INSTITUTE: An intoxicant does make people feel euphoric. In fact, it's part of the pathway to addiction. That doesn't mean there's medical Jack Daniels or that there's medical meth or medical crack or medical heroin. This is - this is a sham.

JOHNS: OK. So how did we get here anyway? Especially considering all the reminders we've had about the evils of marijuana, the old black and white movie "Reefer Madness" warning the public about it --

NANCY REAGAN, FORMER FIRST LADY: Just say no.

JOHNS: -- or former first lady Nancy Reagan's famous "just say no to drugs" campaign in the 1980s?

Criminologist Peter Reuter says attitudes have changed about marijuana especially since medical marijuana, though controversial, has become a legal realty.

PETER REUTER, EXPERT, DRUG MARKETS & DRUG POLICY: It does give an aura of usefulness to this drug which previously in every public presentation by any official agency was always very negative.

JOHNS: Use of the drug hasn't exactly skyrocketed recently. But the one thing that has changed is the economy. Money-hungry states are looking for new sources of revenue. And already wondering whether pot is the next cash crop.

REUTER: Governments certainly are - if they become promoters of legalized marijuana, if legislators - it's clearly for in most cases will be for revenue reasons.

JOHNS (on camera): Still some predict legalization in California could cause chaos starting in the courts, such as state law if passed would clash with federal law, launching a big battle that could end up in the Supreme Court.

(voice-over): But at least for now, it's all just a pipe dream, with a lot of speculation, though the world of drug enforcement could look a lot different when the smoke clears on Election Day.

Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VELSHI: Be sure to stick with us on CNN. Tomorrow, on this show, we'll talk to both sides of the debate with representative from "yes" and "no" on Proposition 19 in California. This is the proposition to legalize marijuana.

OK. A dangerous mission a half a mile underground. The rescue of those 33 trapped miners may begin as early as Wednesday. We're talking about Chile.

Details in "Globe Trekking" next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: Breaking news right now. Explosives have been found in a garbage bag at a cemetery in Manhattan. Let's go straight to Allan Chernoff who has got the latest on this story.

Allan, what's it all about?

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Ali, a very bizarre story here as you said. Nine bricks of military grade explosives found in a cemetery on New York's lower east side. Actually, the east village. Second Avenue and Second Street. The New York City Marble Cemetery. Nine bricks. It's C-4 explosives.

Now the police tell us these explosives were not wired to go off. But nonetheless, they were found this morning by a caretaker in the cemetery. Nine bricks of this explosive. And the bomb squad showed up. They cordoned off the street. They didn't evacuate the area. Keep in mind this is a relatively small cemetery. You know, you might think explosives in a cemetery nobody could possibly be hurt. Well, this is not far from the street itself. But, again, very bizarre situation. Explosives found in a large black garbage -- plastic garbage bag. And the police commissioner will be commenting on this within the hour. So, Ali, not the typical story, but then again this is New York City.

VELSHI: Yes. I mean, I know we always ask you to become experts on things you that you just learned about. We've all heard of C-4 explosives. Is it common -- these are military grade explosives. Would it be common that people would be able to get their hands on them?

CHERNOFF: Right. No. We certainly wouldn't think so. Not civilians anyway. And, you know, why would such explosives show up in anywhere right in Manhattan? Most of all, you would think in a cemetery. This is one of the oldest cemeteries in New York City. And police are trying to figure this one out. But, again, they were not set off. They were not wired. So no damage. But, nonetheless, a very bizarre discovery in the east village of New York.

VELSHI: It's interesting to find out whether they were put there for somebody to take or pick up, or whether they were just -- or there is somebody who was just trying to get rid of them. You'll be on the story. We will listen in for Commissioner Ray Kelly who were expected to speak very shortly.

And I understand, Allan, that we're expecting him to also talk about something we've been discussing sort of peripherally on the show, and that is these hate crimes that occurred -- the attacks on a gay man in New York.

CHERNOFF: That's right. We've been waiting to hear about the ninth suspect. But our understanding is that they do not yet have this person actually apprehended. There have been some discussions with an attorney representing a possible ninth suspect. But thus far, they have not brought anyone in. We did talk quite a bit on Friday and over the weekend about those horrific hate crimes.

VELSHI: OK, Allan, thanks very much. We'll stay on the story, we'll get back to you. Allan Chernoff in our New York bureau on these explosives that had been found in the cemetery in Manhattan.

Republicans have been attacking the Obama administration for deficit spending, but on CNN's "PARKER/SPITZER," economist Paul Krugman defended the deficit. He said it's an essential step in reviving the economy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATHLEEN PARKER, CO-HOST, "PARKER/SPITZER": You're a big fan of deficit spending. You say we have to -- to get something, we have to spend more.

PAUL KRUGMAN, COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Right.

PARKER: But for the average American at home who may already be in debt, the idea of spending when you don't have money doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Can you explain why that's a good economic model?

KRUGMAN: Yes.

Now, it's not in all times, right? When the economy has recovered, once we're back at a point where we have a self-sustaining expansion, when businesses are spending because they're using their capacity, then you actually want to try and pay down the debt, certainly stop borrowing so much.

But, right now, nobody wants to spend. Businesses don't want to spend, because consumers don't want to spend. And the economy is deeply depressed. And the only player out there who can get this economy moving is the government.

So, now is the time for the government to go ahead and borrow, spend, get this economy moving, and then be responsible, then pull back, but only after we have got this thing going.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELSHI: Tonight at 8:00, Elliot says Wall Street betrayed middle class Americans. Kathleen wants to know why. Do not miss CNN's newest show, "PARKER/SPITZER," tonight at 8:00 p.m. Eastern.

Now, have you ever wrangled several hundred thousand snakes? How about farms for maggots? Somebody has got to do it. And you're going to meet the guy who has done the dirty jobs that no one else wants to do. And how he's helping hard working Americans like you. "Mission Impossible" up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: OK, this guy is my hero. Today's "Mission Possible." Mike Rowe. You've seen him on Discovery Channel's "Dirty Jobs." He has tried 300 of the dirtiest jobs out there like changing a light bulb through 600 feet in the air or cleaning skulls. Here's a taste of what he does.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right there.

MIKE ROWE, DISCOVERY CHANNEL'S "DIRTY JOBS": Right here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

ROWE: Hey. Look. Look. There you go. Is that all she do while these happens? Would it be polite just to push the poop of her head while nursing?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can lick it off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VELSHI: All right. Feeding cute baby kangaroos isn't really his dirtiest job, but his work is all to bring respect to skilled workers who make life possible for the rest of us. Electricians, plumbers, rig workers, car technicians. There's nothing this guy won't take on. Now we're expecting to see a shortage of these workers in the next few years. Doesn't feel like that in the economy that we have got now, but Mike has been building them up. He joins us now from San Francisco.

Mike, good to see you. What a pleasure to have you on the show.

ROWE: Nice to be had. Thank you very much.

VELSHI: Mike, you've got a unique perspective on what's going on in America right now because so many of the jobs we've lost have been the dirty, tough jobs. They're actually in some cases the first to go in a tough economy, but they are in many cases the most necessary jobs because these are people doing things that keep our infrastructure going so the rest of us can live our happy fat lives.

ROWE: Sure. I don't know that we've lost the jobs so dramatically as we have lost touch with the people who do the jobs.

VELSHI: Yes.

ROWE: But of course that's always the first step in marginalizing something. But I can tell you over the last six years, we've been to just about every state, worked in just about every industry and you really do start to see the same kinds of things over and over again. A growing skills gap, a crumbling infrastructure. And just a general dysfunctional relationship with dirt. There really are a couple of different pieces of this country that are not connected.

VELSHI: What do we do about it? And what are you doing about it?

ROWE: Well, I got a TV show and I talk about it. Beyond that, my skills are sadly limited, I'm afraid. We've done a pretty good job of getting a general tribute out there over the last six or seven years with the show.

Two years ago, though, I asked my viewers to help me sort of put a point on the problem. And they helped me launch a Web site called MikeRoweWorks on Labor Day, which essentially just calls to light this idea that the skills gap isn't going to close itself.

And if we don't do something soon, we really are going to be dealing with fewer steam fitters and pipe fitters and electricians and plumbers and carpenters. And that's going to be a real, real problem.

So MikeRoweWorks served as a model for some other grassroots campaigns like "Go Build Alabama" and "I Make America".

VELSHI: Yes.

ROWE: And those in turn get connected with some big companies. So I think it's working.

VELSHI: So what's the message? And if we respect what these people do more, if we understand, if we can see what they do, we'll understand how important they are to society. We'll make sure they are paid properly and treated properly? What's the take-away?

ROWE: Well, that's a big part of it. Look, the big take-away for me is encouraging conversation where parents and kids can sit down and accurately talk about all the options that are on the table.

VELSHI: Right.

ROWE: We've got this idea that a four-year degree is basically the only ticket to happiness and success. And when you celebrate one form of education at the expense of all the other ones, you really do the whole country a disservice. So having that conversation is a good start.

But I've got to tell you, too, so many of the things we define as problems -- infrastructure, manufacturing, the skills gap, I think they're really symptoms of this larger problem that so many of us are just disconnected from the people who haul our water.

VELSHI: What is the thing that we'd learn the most if we all spend a little more time with these workers of America whose work we take for granted?

ROWE: Humor. VELSHI: Yes.

ROWE: I would say that, you know, in so many ways over the last couple of decades, we've fallen into this trap of poor training, dirty jobs and hard work with a certain kind of predictable drudgery.

VELSHI: Right.

ROWE: And that's just not really the way it is. There's great, good humor out there in the trenches.

VELSHI: Sure.

ROWE: And there's a real sense of camaraderie among the men and women who do this kind of work. So to start with, you just begin accurately portraying what these jobs are like. It's not just making little rocks out of big rocks.

VELSHI: Mike, you do a great job of that on your show. You make these horrible jobs sometimes look like people might want to do them. And I think that might be the end. It's hard work. It's dirty work, but it's honorable work and it's noble. And you've done a lot to show what people do. So thanks very much for doing it, and thanks for being on our show.

ROWE: My pleasure. I'll do it again next Tuesday, 9:00-ish.

VELSHI: We'll be tune in.

Mike Rowe, you all know him. He's a creator and host of Discovery Channel's "Dirty Jobs." For more information on him, go to my blog, CNN.com/Ali. We'll link you to him although I think you know where to find him.

All right, we're going to take a break and we're going to find out on the other side what Americans really think about their leaders in Congress. There's some ugly poll numbers coming up next in our political update.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: I just want to -- New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly talking about the explosives found in Manhattan and the hate crimes performed this weekend.

Listen in.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

RAY KELLY, COMMISSIONER, NYPD: -- the explosives that were found here.

Questions?

QUESTION: (OFF MIKE)

KELLY: We'll be able to get a better reading of that when the explosives are brought to the firing range.

There's writing on it. It appears to be military righting, a serial number, something of that nature.

QUESTION: (OFF MIKE)

KELLY: I'm sorry.

QUESTION: (OFF MIKE)

KELLY: Well, it depends on where you put the explosives. If you put it in the building -- you know what they call tamping as far as explosives are concerned. Something has to be on top of it, it depends on where you put it.

This amount of material was used in the London bombings in 2005, but of course, it was separated. It was four separate bombings in that case.

Though it's difficult to say, again, inside a building obviously it could have caused an awful lot of damage.

QUESTION: Commissioner, how would someone get hold of this -- (INAUDIBLE)?

KELLY: One brick is one and a quarter pounds. Here's pictures of them that -- they were in a -- as I say, a black plastic garbage bag. One of the bricks is broken.

QUESTION: Sir, how would someone get hold of material like this? Is it commonly available, easily available?

KELLY: No, it's not commonly available. It could be taken from perhaps a military installation years ago. We don't have the age of this material, it's difficult to tell. But hopefully, our investigators will get a better reading of it when it goes to the firing range.

QUESTION: Do they have serial numbers? Is it possible -- (INAUDIBLE)?

KELLY: It has a number on it but it's not really a serial number. I think it's more of a product number that describes, for military purposes, what's inside the wrapping. It's wrapped in plastic itself. Although, you can't really see it on this picture, but this is sort of plastic wrapping material.

QUESTION: (OFF MIKE).

KELLY: No. This cemetery was founded in 1831, I believe. We've had no other issues that I'm aware of concerning this location.

QUESTION: Is the administration able to tell you why -- how it could have ended up there at all buried?

KELLY: No. Not at this time. QUESTION: Can you describe the circumstances under which the volunteer found it? What was the volunteer doing or volunteering on behalf of?

KELLY: The volunteer, as I understand it, was cleaning up, helping clean up the property, found the bag sitting next to a tree. According to the gardener, that bag is located just a few feet from where it was dug up, two to three feet.

QUESTION: Is the gardener an employee of the cemetery or outside contractor?

KELLY: That's a good question. I'm not certain.

QUESTION: Is the caretaker -- did he realize what he had found or did he know (INAUDIBLE)?

KELLY: it's not clear at this time as to whether or not he understood precisely what was in the bag.

QUESTION: (OFF MIKE)

KELLY: No. Well, it was thought -- on the back fence, close to the back fence of the cemetery, there's a structure on the other side of the fence. But you could reasonably -- I mean, glean from that that it was put there to threaten any structure.

Again, there is no detonating device inside the bag.

QUESTION: Can you elaborate on the -- (INAUDIBLE) -- found on the outside of the -- (INAUDIBLE) -- you said it was religious rambling. Any -- can it be traced to any one religion?

KELLY: It had reference to Christ and it was supposedly signed by Jesus Christ.

QUESTION: Was it written on the vehicle or was it written on a piece of paper?

KELLY: No, it was on a piece of paper affixed to a vehicle, in an envelope. Yes, a police car.

QUESTION: (OFF MIKE)

VELSHI: OK, we'll continue to monitor. This is New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly talking about these bricks of C4, military- grade explosive, that were found by a volunteer who was cleaning up a cemetery in Manhattan. We'll find out more. We'll keep on listening in to find out whether there's any information we have to bring to you.

Those explosive were not geared to detonate. They were just there in a garbage bag. The whole thing is a little puzzling. We'll try to get to the bottom of it.

We'll bring you more politics and news on the other side of this break, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: We just talked to Mike Rowe of "Dirty Jobs" and he was telling us how we sort of have to get out of our little space and see what other people do and you get a better respect for the work others do.

Maybe you're looking for a new job. Maybe this economy has forced you into looking for a new job. Maybe you're just craving a career change. Where do you start? I have a place for you.

Today on "Taking the Lead" we have some of the best jobs in America. Not the "Dirty Jobs," already did that with you. This is the best jobs in America. CNN.com's Poppy Harlow, who I think will admit to having one of the best jobs in America, she travels everywhere and talks to people.

We generally have some great jobs, but our jobs don't show up on the list of best jobs in America.

POPPY HARLOW, CNNMONEY.COM CORRESPONDENT: No, you know why? Because stress is one of the criteria, a lack of stress, and I think that's why our job doesn't make the list. We have great jobs and we love it here.

But it's interesting, CNNMoney just came out with a list of the top ten best jobs in America. I want to pull it up for you so you can take a look here, because it certainly wasn't what I expected to see on the list. Take a look.

Number one, software architect. Head on down to physical therapist, environmental engineer.

Let's pull up the next five. You can civil engineers also on this list. Sales director and then biomedical engineer.

(CROSSTALK)

VELSHI: What are the criteria?

HARLOW: The criteria are interesting. Great pay -- it took away basically any job that has a median of 60 grand or lower -- so pretty good pay. Good growth prospect, Ali. So basically, you have to have at least 10 percent 10-year growth prospect or better, that was on there. And quality of life, stress and just overall quality of life, flexibility, et cetera.

So the number one on the list there, of course, is software architect, but we talked to a civil engineer. The reason we did is because they have a 24 percent growth prospect for that entire sector. The median pay is 80 grand, the top pay 120 grand.

Take a look at why this woman enjoys her job so much as a civil engineer. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Civil engineering, from day one that's what I wanted to be. I saw things being built and I found that very exciting. A lot of people especially that are not engineers might think of engineering as a very you sit at a desk, do calculations and you're sitting in front of a computer, and that's not what engineering is all about.

There is a technical aspect and discussing design, but a lot of it is out in the field going out to the project site, looking at the issues right in front of me and coming up with an answer right then and there and seeing how we can solve the problems so the project keeps moving.

We kid around and say architects make it look pretty and the engineers make it stand, but during the design phase, the architect and the engineer work together and then the contractor has got to execute everything that was planned. If we do our job right, no one knows we exist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: And you know what's so interesting about that, Ali, is the fact that we talk about how the infrastructure in this country is crumbling, we have to fix it. A lot of that stimulus money went to people just like her, went to civil engineers to build our roads and bridges and et cetera.

VELSHI: She said, if we do it right no one knows we exist and that's actually a problem in engineering. The growth prospects are so good because they're having difficulty recruiting people because it's not thought of as the sexy people.

In fact, I was off last week, I was in L.A. for a conference with the National Academies of Engineering, and that's their big thing is they're busy solving the big problems of humanity at the moment and people think about it as a job that you go to an office and work on a computer and use slide rules.

HARLOW: And it's not, exactly. We need more women in the field. She's one of not so many.

VELSHI: And software architect right up there, that's been a growth area for many years.

I think this is really important for people to go to this list because it is not just good pay, it is quality of life and the job growth prospects. We've got to look beyond this year and the next year.

So fantastic stuff. Poppy, good to see you as always. Go to CNNMoney.com to see the best jobs in America. It's a list worthwhile looking at.

All right, is being gay in America getting tougher instead of easier? My "XYZ" is up next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

VELSHI: Time now for "The XYZ of It."

Between Proposition 8 in California and the back and forth on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" one has the sense that gay rights are lurching forward at low speed and experiencing some setbacks. At least the issue is part of the national conversation, that's a good thing, right? After listening to the rest of the conversation you might think something different entirely.

There's the Michigan assistant attorney general who has been harassing the gay student body president at the University of Michigan. There's the Rutgers student who took his own life after an intimate sexual encounter was broadcast on the Internet without his knowledge. The attack at the Stonewall Inn in New York, the cradle of the gay rights movement there, a week or so ago. And of course, the horrific attacks in the Bronx being called the worst anti-gay hate crime in New York ever.

It might seem that being gay is getting tougher, not easier which makes it particularly poignant that today is National Coming Out Day. Coming out as a gay man or a lesbian or a bisexual is already hard enough, the courage it has to take to facial being disowned or harassed or shunned is unbelievable.

If you're still in the closet, all these hateful headlines have made you slam the door shut tight and that's understandable. All I can say is I hope someday we live in a society where all of us can be our honest true selves every day and everywhere.

That's my "XYZ." Brooke Baldwin in the CNN NEWSROOM right now.