Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

NC Police Remove Mattress and Box Springs From Baker Home

Aired October 15, 2010 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: We have got some breaking news coming out of North Carolina tonight. Zahra Baker, a 10-year-old little girl bravely battling bone cancer, losing part of her left leg and her hearing. Things could only get worse. This little girl ends up missing, reportedly kidnapped from her own bedroom in the middle of the night, her prosthetic leg gone, her hearing aids left behind. The last person to see her alive, her stepmother.

After police say she confesses to writing a fake million-dollar ransom note, the stepmother now behind bars on felony obstruction charges. Stunning new developments tonight. Police and cadaver dogs go inside the home of 10-year-old Zahra, removing evidence, including the child`s bed mattress. Why are investigators interested in a bed frame, a mattress and box springs reportedly from Zahra`s own bedroom? And after so many allegations Zahra was abused, was the little girl actually locked in a tiny attic? Tonight, the managers of that apartment complex making the shocking claim are with us exclusively live tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A massive search.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No bush that they didn`t look under.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Going over this area over and over again.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No piece of wood they didn`t look under.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A frantic search is on to find Zahra Baker.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Police say no one has seen the 10-year-old.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has seen Zahra.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Didn`t even know they had a little girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For weeks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within the last month.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve never seen her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I haven`t seen her for over a year.

GRACE: The last person to see Zahra alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you state your name, please?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Elisa.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Elisa.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Elisa Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Elisa Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She had nothing to do with this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She would make fun of the child for not walking right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s living on one leg.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She says that she is not a killer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She would slap her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had cancer all of her life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And pull her hair.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s gone deaf.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Elisa Baker would taunt her and cuss at her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This woman was someone home schooling this little girl.

GRACE: They never registered Zahra for home schooling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She loves her daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Downright evil!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: Good evening. I`m Jean Casarez of the legal network "In Session" on the trueTV network, in for Nancy Grace. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. Stunning new developments out of North Carolina. Police and cadaver dogs go inside the home of missing 10-year-old Zahra Baker, removing bedroom furniture and bags of evidence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators drained a pond.

GRACE: A massive search under way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And searched a 60-acre tract of land.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: About 70 searchers, cadaver dogs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They found no sign of her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 10-year-old girl in North Carolina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zahra Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are looking for a body.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cadaver dogs.

GRACE: K9s.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cadaver dogs.

GRACE: Hit on Daddy`s industrial wood chipper.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police do not believe that Zahra is still alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unless she.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Elisa Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is responsible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Admitted to writing the ransom note.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no logic in the world.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had nothing to do with this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why she would have written a ransom note.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So many people failed her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) was informed about all this stuff (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If she wouldn`t walk right, she would get punished.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ordered the Department of Social Services.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Adam, can we talk to you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was a bruise under her eye.

GRACE: What DFACS, Department of Family and Children`s Services, did or did not observe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She would scream at her mother, I hate you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zahra, did she ever do anything, Adam?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Better than without them, so...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not being concerned about their own daughter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And let us go straight out to Natisha Lance, standing by in Granite Falls, North Carolina. Natisha, you were there all day today when this all came down. What happened?

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Jean, Adam Baker, Zahra Baker`s father, was at the scene today when police executed this two-hour search on their home in Hickory, North Carolina. Reportedly, he consented to this search. And as you said during the opening, two K9 units were used, searching inside and outside the home. They were swapping, taking turns going inside the home.

Now, also, reportedly, these are new cadaver dogs, fresh to this search. They have not been used during the course of this investigation thus far. Investigators were seen with two bags of potential evidence, in addition to a mattress, a bed frame and also a box spring that were all wrapped in plastic.

Now, there was a reporter there from one of our affiliates who was able to talk to one of those dog handlers. They asked if any hits were made inside or outside the home. As far as outside the home, they said no.

CASAREZ: Natisha...

LANCE: But as far as inside the home...

CASAREZ: ... we are...

LANCE: ... they were referred to police.

CASAREZ: ... looking at that mattress right now. You saw that mattress. Is it a twin mattress? Is it a full? Is it a queen? What size mattress?

LANCE: It`s hard to say what size mattress it was, Jean. But it was...

CASAREZ: It`s a twin.

LANCE: ... wrapped in plastic. It was...

CASAREZ: I`ll tell you that right now. That is a twin mattress.

LANCE: OK.

CASAREZ: That is a twin mattress. How many investigators went into that home?

LANCE: There are about a dozen investigators who were on the scene. Now, the only thing is, Jean, this house has been open -- not the house open, but the yard has been open since about Tuesday. There have been people who have been walking in and out of that property, around that property. So now they are doing this search now, going through the bushes, going all around the perimeter of the property. And also, like I was saying, when the dog handler was asked whether there was a hit inside the home, they were referred to police on that question.

CASAREZ: OK. When investigators went into the home originally today, was Adam Baker with them? Did he come with them to go into the home?

LANCE: Adam Baker was with them. He was inside the home. While investigators were coming out the front door, Adam Baker was going out the back door. There were some reporters who were able to ask him a few questions, but mostly, he walked with his head down. He said that he -- the media knew more about what was going on than he did. He also spoke to the Associated Press today, and to them he said that if Zahra is found, he wants to bring her back to Australia, if that is what she wants.

CASAREZ: So he is saying that she -- he thinks she is alive.

LANCE: He`s saying he doesn`t know right now, Jean. He said there`s too many facts out there, that he`s still trying to put everything together. He also said -- when asked about Elisa Baker, his wife, he said that he doesn`t know right now. He`s still trying to put everything together.

But police have said that Adam Baker is cooperating. If they need him to be someplace, he shows up there. If they ask him to do something, he does it. And we have seen that. We`ve seen him at that other property where those other searches were executed, at the location where pieces of equipment for his job were kept. And now we see him today at the search at their home. So it does appear that Adam Baker was cooperating, but police still saying there is not a suspect but not ruling anybody out as a person of interest.

CASAREZ: So what is happening at that home tonight? And Natisha, turn around for us a little bit. Let`s look at that home. Let`s see what it looks like in the background right there. It`s vacant? No...

(CROSSTALK)

LANCE: Well, actually, Jean, this home is a property that the Bakers lived in prior to moving to that home in Hickory. This is where the neighbors -- the management neighbors believe that Zahra may have been kept in the attic. And you can see it right behind me. It was apartment number one, which is just over my left shoulder. Now, it`s a two-floor apartment. There`s two bedrooms upstairs, one bathroom, a kitchen downstairs, another bathroom and a living room area. They lived here from about July to November of 2009.

The management said that they only saw Zahra when they moved into the apartment and never saw her after that, even when they moved out. But what they did observe...

CASAREZ: Which leads us, Natisha...

LANCE: ... was a lot of...

CASAREZ: ... to a really important guest that we have tonight. Exclusively with us tonight, we have got Darrell and Shirley Mims standing by live in North Carolina. They are with us exclusively. They are the managers of that apartment complex where the Bakers lived just last year. Thank you both so much for joining us.

Tell us, first of all, exactly when did the Bakers move in? And how long did they stay?

SHIRLEY MIMS, FORMER BAKER APARTMENT MANAGER: They moved in in July of `90 and they stayed until November of 09, when I asked them to move out.

CASAREZ: OK. And Shirley, I think you are the manager of the apartment complex, but you and your husband work together on this. And you lived at the apartment next to them, so you actually shared that common wall, very close. Now, how often did you see Zahra Baker?

SHIRLEY MIMS: I never saw her but the one time when they moved in. That`s the only time we ever saw her.

CASAREZ: So -- so they lived next door to you for four months, and you only saw Zahra once?

SHIRLEY MIMS: Once, when they -- the day they moved in. That`s the only time. And I thought maybe it was a granddaughter or a relative that was just visiting with them. I didn`t have any idea she was living there.

CASAREZ: And what was the demeanor? What did she -- did she say anything to you? How did she look? How did she act around her parents?

SHIRLEY MIMS: She just walked from their car into the apartment, and that was it. She didn`t even look at us.

CASAREZ: And that`s all you -- where do you think she was for all those months?

SHIRLEY MIMS: Now I believe that they may have kept her in the attic. In my heart, I believe really that...

CASAREZ: So you think...

SHIRLEY MIMS: ... because we would hear...

CASAREZ: Go ahead.

SHIRLEY MIMS: Because we would hear noises up in the attic, and we just assumed it as maybe squirrels up there. But when they moved out, the noise stopped. We never heard the noise anymore.

CASAREZ: Dana, I think we`ve got...

SHIRLEY MIMS: And in my heart, I think...

CASAREZ: ... some pictures of that attic. In your heart, you believe this. Let`s go into more about this attic area. The entrance is in a closet, is that correct?

SHIRLEY MIMS: That`s right.

CASAREZ: And I think we`re looking at pictures of it right there. When they moved out...

(CROSSTALK)

CASAREZ: What made -- Darrell, let me ask you. When they moved out, what made you think that Zahra or someone was living up in the attic?

DARRELL MIMS, FORMER BAKER APARTMENT MANAGER: Well, the painter that the landlord had over there doing a paint job, he -- he quit for some reason. I don`t know what it was. But anyway, me and the owner of the property went over and was doing a walkthrough, and the closet door was missing. There were footprints and black shoe sole prints up around the door facings leading up to the attic (INAUDIBLE)

(CROSSTALK)

CASAREZ: Let`s understand that. Hold on just a second. There were footprint impressions where?

DARRELL MIMS: On the sides of the door facing to the closet.

CASAREZ: And that...

DARRELL MIMS: The door was gone, totally gone.

CASAREZ: And how would someone even...

DARRELL MIMS: And you could see someone had...

CASAREZ: ... get in there? It`s an eight-foot ceiling.

DARRELL MIMS: Well, you`d -- you`d about have to have a ladder or somebody lift you up to, you know, pull yourself through there.

CASAREZ: And if you...

DARRELL MIMS: It`s hard to get in...

CASAREZ: ... had a prosthetic leg, to even get up in the closet, that attic? How would you do it?

DARRELL MIMS: Well, if she was up in the attic, she was put up in the attic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Amber Alert.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Amber Alert.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On Zahra Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Called off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was canceled today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The disappearance of little Zahra Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cancer patient.

GRACE: Hearing aid.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lost her leg.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is now being investigated as a homicide.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Homicide.

GRACE: Murder case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Elisa Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stepmom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Admitted she wrote a ransom note.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The search for missing Zahra Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cadaver dogs found blood and human remains.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve smelled it since Sunday. It was real bad last night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Positive hits for human remains.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She says that she is not a killer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very emotional time for law enforcement.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`ve taking every single tip very seriously.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mulch piles and wood chipper.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mulch piles and a wood chipper, looking for signs of remains.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The whereabouts of missing 10-year-old girl Zahra Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a race against the clock for Hickory police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The whole key to law enforcement with this has to be patience.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You came here specifically to hunt for remains?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The possibility of finding a body.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re looking for her body.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are searching for a body.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police do believe that Zahra is dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And cadaver dogs swarming the home of the Bakers today, seizing a mattress and box springs, taking it out, along with bags of evidence. I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace tonight. Thank you for joining us.

We`ve got very, very special exclusive guests tonight. It is Mr. and Mrs. Mims, Darrell and Shirley. They are the managers of the apartment complex that the Bakers lived in just a year ago.

Shirley Mims, thank you for joining us because you have enlightened us tonight about a crawlspace attic area that you say when the Mims (SIC) left was not only disturbed, but you believed that little Zahra could have lived up there because you never saw her in the four months that the couple lived at the home.

You mentioned before the break that you only saw Zahra once. You thought maybe she was a granddaughter of the couple?

SHIRLEY MIMS: Yes, that`s what I thought. I thought maybe she was a granddaughter or a relative that was just coming to visit because we never saw her after that.

CASAREZ: You know what I want to ask you? When someone moves into an apartment complex, they fill out a registration form. And did this couple fill that out? Normally, you have to talk about any children or pets you have. What did they say?

SHIRLEY MIMS: OK. I wasn`t the one that took their application. I wasn`t here at that time. And the owner actually took their application. And then he brought it back to me, and he`s the one that actually rented it to them.

CASAREZ: All right.

SHIRLEY MIMS: (INAUDIBLE) they had...

CASAREZ: And they said what?

SHIRLEY MIMS: It said that there were three occupants, but it only had her name and his name, and the little girl`s name is nowhere on the application.

CASAREZ: OK. All right. Very interesting. You are looking right now at new photos, and it`s from MySpace page of Elisa Baker`s daughter, Amber Fairchild. That we believe is the wedding photo of the couple, Adam and Elisa Baker.

Let`s take your calls. We are talking calls live tonight. Mercedes in Michigan. Hi, Mercedes. Thanks for calling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

CASAREZ: Hi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The ransom note that the -- Elisa Baker wrote mentions a red-headed brother, and I don`t know if he`s been questioned or anything like that. But my other question was, where did the father do the landscaping in the last few weeks? Maybe she scattered further around, and that`s not a good thing. But is there anywhere else besides the home area there that these -- these contaminated DNA-soaked whatever mulch could be?

CASAREZ: You know, Mercedes, you`re thinking just like an investigator. Let us go out to John Miller in Granite Falls, North Carolina. He is the editor of "The Hickory Daily Record." First of all, in that ransom note, it talks about a red-headed young man, that he`s going to be next, something like that. Who is he? And who was that ransom note directed towards?

JOHN MILLER, "HICKORY DAILY RECORD": The ransom note was directed toward a person by the name of Mr. Coffey and -- who was the owner of the house that the Bakers were living in. And the red-headed boy, red-headed son, was the son of Mr. Coffey. And so the ransom note was a bit confusing, and that`s one reason that I think that investigators...

CASAREZ: But I didn`t think Mr. Coffey...

MILLER: ... are suspicious of the note...

CASAREZ: ... had a son!

MILLER: He did.

CASAREZ: Mr. Coffey had a daughter.

MILLER: He has a son and a daughter.

CASAREZ: A son and a daughter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Horrifying new developments tonight.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ten-year-old Zahra Baker has not been found.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are searching mulch piles and a wood chipper, looking for signs of remains.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zahra`s father -- that`s Adam Baker -- he was here on the scene, watching.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This comes after cadaver dogs reportedly made positive hits on that equipment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ADAM BAKER, ZAHRA`S FATHER: I appreciate everyone doing what they`re doing. And I just hope they just keep looking (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think happened to Zahra?

BAKER: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think your wife might have had some involvement in all (INAUDIBLE)

BAKER: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have no idea?

BAKER: I`m going to get these guys in here (INAUDIBLE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you -- I know you got to go. Just -- what can you tell us about Zahra? Why is she so special?

BAKER: Always smiled. Nothing ever upset her. Wanted to do everything for everyone else before her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Adam, did you have any involvement in her disappearance?

BAKER: No. Everybody knows more than I do at the moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: So Adam Baker is saying that he does not know if his wife had any involvement in this. He also says he hasn`t spoken with his wife.

I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session," in for Nancy Grace tonight. At the family home, a search was executed today. A mattress and box springs were taken out of that home whole, with plastic on it. And while that search was going on, at the apartment complex, the couple lived with Zahra about a year ago, another search was executed the same day, just about the same time.

I want to go to Paul Penzone who is with us, sergeant from the Phoenix Police Department. Paul, what are they going to look for from that mattress? They could have taken parts of the mattress, but they took the whole doggone thing out of that home. What are they going to look for?

PAUL PENZONE, PHOENIX POLICE DEPARTMENT: You do not want to overlook anything. So they`re going to look for every fiber, every hair, any kind of bodily fluid, blood, any physical evidence whatsoever, not only specific to Zahra but to the family or anybody else if there`s -- if there`s an outside chance that someone else was involved in this, you want to identify some DNA.

But what I think is even more critical -- there was an extremely long timeframe where she went unseen. So they have to narrow that down, speak to people as far back as possible and see when they know for a fact she was last seen alive because it`s going to have a big influence on what other areas they need to look, search, and be engaged in because we really don`t know when she turned up missing.

CASAREZ: And they have said she`s dead. They`re trying to find out where she was murdered, in my mind.

To Valerie in North Carolina. Hi, Valerie. Good evening.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I would like to know where the natural mother is in all this mess.

CASAREZ: Do you know, Valerie, it`s a really sad story. She is in Australia. She has not seen her daughter in years. Zahra was raised by her father, who met the stepmother on the Internet, and that`s how they all moved to the United States about two years ago.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZAHRA BAKER, MISSING 10-YEAR-OLD: I can actually hear more than without my hearing aid.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: For a missing 10-year-old girl in North Carolina.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Ten-year-old Zahra Baker has not been found.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The search for Zahra went from an Amber Alert to a homicide investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Inconsistencies.

CHIEF TOM ATKINS, HICKORY POLICE: Inconsistencies develop over the course of this investigation.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They resumed the search.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Authorities are hoping to uncover new clues in the whereabouts of missing 10-year-old girl Zahra Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police call Elisa Baker a person of interest.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say Zahra`s stepmom has not been truthful.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her mother, you know, broke her hand, spanking her when she hid her prosthetics.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They hit on a wood chipper. They`ve searched this site before.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A number of patrol cars lined up around that van.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She was reported missing Saturday afternoon. She may have been missing much longer.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A bunch of farmland back there, and some trees, maybe a couple of other little houses.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Some closure and give her some peace.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wherever you are, you get closure. (INAUDIBLE) tonight.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session" on the truTV network in for Nancy Grace tonight.

Multiple searches were carried out at the homes that the Bakers had lived in a year ago. The ones they were most recently lived in.

Let`s go to Natisha Lance, standing by live in Granite Falls.

Natisha, you are outside an apartment complex the family lived in about a year ago. And while investigators were searching that home, they also were searching the most recent home.

First of all, tell us about the search where they took the mattress.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, that search, Jean, was consented reportedly by the father, Adam Baker. There were about a dozen officers who were at that location.

There were two teams of cadaver dogs that were there. They were taking turns going inside and outside of the home. They were searching around the property outside going through bushes, also looking through the backyard.

And inside just like you said, Jean, two bags of potential evidence were taken out of that home as well as a mattress, a bed frame and a box spring which were all wrapped in plastic.

CASAREZ: You know, I see on the screen right there that they took the bed frame also. The metal framing. Now when that was concluded or at least at the same time they were searching the apartment where you were at tonight, what did they take from there?

LANCE: Well, Jean, they were actually searching a lot which is just behind this apartment complex. It was just one cadaver dog who was out here with one handler. There was the crime scene investigator who was taking pictures around that property today and there is also two investigators who are following along with that dog handler and the cadaver dog.

They were -- they were out here for about an hour. I asked them if they were looking for anything specific. They would not answer those questions. I also asked them if the dog hit on anything. They also would not answer those questions and referred everything to the Hickory Police Department.

CASAREZ: So, Natisha, they did not go inside this apartment where you`re at? But they searched the grounds around it?

LANCE: They searched the grounds around it and did not go inside the apartment and actually, Shirley Mims told me today, I asked her if she had seen the Bakers after they had moved out of the apartment. She said that she had seen them a few times at night driving up to the mailboxes.

But they didn`t have a key to the mailbox anymore. So she didn`t know why they would be around the mailbox. So it`s not clear whether or not the Bakers have been back to this property in recent days around this time, but it does seem that police are trying to identify all the places that they have had ties to and do their searches based on that.

CASAREZ: They are building a case.

Let`s talk to Shirley Mims. She is the manager of that apartment complex.

Shirley, when they moved in, you started to hear a lot of arguing and fighting. You shared a common wall with them. Explain all that.

SHIRLEY MIMS, BAKERS` FORMER NEIGHBORS, BELIEVE MISSING 10-YEAR-OLD ZAHRA KEPT IN ATTIC: Well, they had -- they had lived there for a couple or three weeks before they started. And then after that it was like just every night there -- they`re yelling and screaming and you could tell that they were actually fighting over there.

And then on the last fight they had before I asked them to move, they were fighting so bad that I was sitting on my sofa and my pictures fell and hit me in the head. And so I got up to go over there to tell them they needed to calm down, and when I got out the door, they were in the parking lot. And they were running towards each other, but I never saw them hit each other. And --

CASAREZ: And when they argue like that -- when they argue like that, did you just hear the two of them yelling? Did you ever hear a little girl yelling at all?

S. MIMS: Never did hear the little girl. Never.

CASAREZ: Now, when they left -- and why did they leave?

S. MIMS: We asked them to move because of the violence and the disturbance that they were causing.

CASAREZ: So when they left, you as the manager, and your husband, you went into their apartment, what did you see?

S. MIMS: Well, when we went in, you know, it wasn`t really clean. When we went upstairs to the bedroom where the attic is at, the closet door was missing. The shelf over the closet was missing and the rod.

And that`s when my husband pointed out about the footprints and stuff was on the door face and it`s up into the attic.

CASAREZ: So let me ask Darrell. Mr. Mims, did you go up into what you know to be the attic space?

DARRELL MIMS, BAKERS` FORMER NEIGHBORS, BELIEVE MISSING 10-YEAR-OLD ZAHRA KEPT IN ATTIC: Yes, ma`am, I did.

CASAREZ: And what did you see?

D. MIMS: Right after they had moved out and because I saw the footprints and marks going up the wall, what I saw was a double firewall up there separating our apartment and their apartment. And the fire wall on her side of the apartment on Lisa`s side was pulled down laid flat.

The piece on my side had been kicked loose which it wouldn`t go but like six inches without busting it all away. So we moved the sheet rock around and looked, and all that, and if I`m not mistaken, I think we might have found a small sheet up there. But there`s been eight or nine months ago so my memory is not real good, but we threw it away and I assumed somebody told us a week later that they did have a child here and I told my wife.

I said, they had to have -- they had to have been putting that child in that attic. I said, we never seen the child leaving in the car when they went to the store.

S. MIMS: Never.

D. MIMS: We never seen the child with them one time. Never going to school. Never heard the child scream. Never heard a child`s voice. Never heard or nothing but them fighting and arguing.

CASAREZ: So was -- was your impression from what you saw up there, do you think that a little girl was living up in that attic? Sleeping up there on the different fillers that you find in the attic?

D. MIMS: I think she was sleeping up there on a piece of sheet rock laid out across the rafters. And there was insulation, you know, between the rafters, but that`s the only way she could have -- you know, and that`s why I feel like the sheet rock was snatched down.

CASAREZ: And that`s what I`m looking for. The fiberglass insulation.

I want to go to Dr. Titus Duncan, general surgery physician. When I think about the fiberglass insulation to breathe, to sleep on and that has glass in it. Things are not supposed to breathe in your lungs. What can that do to someone?

DR. TITUS DUNCAN, M.D., GENERAL SURGERY, ATLANTA MEDICAL CENTER: Well, you know, it`s a common problem that a lot of workers who have been around asbestos and fiberglass, they commonly have -- will have chronic lung problems later on in life.

Acutely they -- you can get some acute illness and you can get some sickness where you have an acute cough or things of that nature. But for the most part, those type of particles do make it difficult for to you breathe. And over a long period of time, they damage your lungs on a more permanent basis.

CASAREZ: More or less having a prosthetic leg to even get up there.

Let`s go to a caller. Elaine in Florida. Hi, Elaine.

ELAINE, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Jean. How are you?

CASAREZ: I`m fine. I`m fine. Just more and more facts are coming out of this case that are so tragic.

ELAINE: My goodness. This is so sad. I have a question. Is this man -- if I`m getting this right, did this man do this stump piling or whatever for a living?

CASAREZ: Being a landscaper, you`re saying. I believe so.

John Miller, editor of "The Hickory Daily Record." Elaine wants to know, this is what he does, right?

JOHN MILLER, EDITOR, HICKORY DAILY RECORD: Yes. This is -- that was his job. Landscaping, trimming trees. He did that same kind of work in Australia. And he worked in various sundry jobs and around here, but the last job he had was with David Cosby and -- at the site that they have been doing all the searching at in Burke County.

CASAREZ: All right. Let`s go to the lawyers. Bradford Cohen, defense attorney out of Miami. John Manuelian, attorney out of Los Angeles.

Thank you so much for joining us. First of all, they are building a case, Bradford Cohen, and they`re going to homes that the family hasn`t lived in for a year. Why?

BRADFORD COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think they wanted to start interviewing individuals just like the managers that were on to find out some history of what`s going on. Find out some history of why they kept her the way they kept her and why where they kept her.

So they`re going to trace this back as far as they can to try to build the case against both the father and the mother.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Zahra`s case started out of course as an Amber Alert. It`s now being handled as a homicide.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What happened to 10-year-old Zahra Baker?

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They have drained a pond and searched a 60- acre track of land but they found no sign of her.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They`re added additional cadaver dogs to help with that wider search.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The allegations that her home life may have been unhappy.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Stepmom made Zahra`s life a living hell.

LANCE: Neighbors say this is the hill Zahra Baker would be forced to walk up on her prosthetic leg while her stepmother Elisa Baker would taunt her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She would slap her. She would pull her hair. She would cuss at her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s evil. It`s just downright evil.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s made us angry or hurt. I just don`t know my parents, how they could hurt a little girl.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators suspect Zahra is dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope they find her alive, but just for peace, I hope they find her.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police do believe Zahra is dead, but they do not have her body and no one is charged with her murder.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: And brand-new cadaver dogs were at the home today. The Baker home en masse. Investigators, they are taking out bags of evidence and a mattress. Meanwhile at another apartment that the couple lived at with Zahra. It is believed about a year ago allegations now from the management of that apartment that little Zahra may have been kept to sleep and stay in the attic.

We have a rendered drawing of that attic. You may think about an attic and think that it is something you could stand up in and live in. We`re going to show everybody, that attic is approximately four to 4.5 feet tall at its highest point. Zahra was 5`1" tall. She wouldn`t have been able to stand up in that location.

I want to go to Attorney John Manuelian out of Los Angeles. We see that they are building a case here and that can mean in the future an immense amount of charges not only for allegedly murder, but child abuse. That is a very real possibility in this case along with major crimes of murder, right, John?

JOHN MANUELIAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. But I mean when you are going charge somebody, you`re going to charge them with the highest possible crime. In this case it would be murder.

It`s not likely that the prosecution is going to charge murder and child abuse. They`re going to go for the big case which is the homicide case. And based on the facts in this case that would be the prudent way to go about it.

CASAREZ: But don`t you want a felony murder allegation also, not only a murder one?

MANUELIAN: Yes, but we don`t know at this point whether or not child abuse under the North Carolina statute would be constituted as a misdemeanor or a felony. If it`s a felony, then yes, it would be felony murder one.

CASAREZ: What would be the defense be here at this point? There`s just so much going against this couple.

MANUELIAN: You know, the -- this person Elisa Baker has done some crazy things, specifically doing this fake ransom note. She`s done some weird things in the past so I would say that we would have her mental capacity checked by psychiatrists. There might be some psychological defenses, and that`s really all the defense that she has at this point as far as I can see.

CASAREZ: To Brian Russell, forensic psychologist, why would somebody keep a child in the attic or could Zahra have wanted to live in the attic to get away from the abuse that everyone is saying she achieved at the hands of her stepmother?

BRIAN RUSSELL, PH.D., FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, Jean, that`s an interesting theory. I think if she did live up in the attic, I think it was probably against her will. I think that would be highly unusual even for an abused child to want to be isolated to that degree and that little space that you just showed the viewers at home.

I think that this woman, the picture that we`re getting from the eyewitnesses of this woman is beyond someone who was ill-equipped to parent and even into the realm of the sadistic.

And so when you ask how or why somebody is that way, you`re getting almost to the limits of what psychology can explain about why somebody would want to inflict pain and harm on another person.

I think the lesson ultimately is the same as it is in the Kyron Horman case which is that if you`re a single parent and you`re going to bring someone else into your child`s life, you can`t know enough about that person, you can`t do enough due diligence.

And the thing that needs to be -- the determining factor is not what that person will do for you, the parent, it`s what effect is that person going to have on your child?

CASAREZ: And little Zahra Baker, she was not only deaf and she not only had bone cancer, but she had a prosthetic leg. She had lost part of her leg. Her hearing aids were left behind at the house. So whatever happened to her, she couldn`t hear it. She could only see it as it was happening.

To Robin in Massachusetts. Hi, Robin.

ROBIN, CALLER FROM MASSACHUSETTS: Yes, hi, Jean. My question is for Shirley Mims. I would like to know, please, when these violent arguments and this sort of thing took place and apparently Shirley said that things were moving on her walls, it was so bad.

Were there indication that the child could have been involved, crying or screaming or that sort of thing?

CASAREZ: And that`s my question.

Shirley Mims, when these violent arguments took place, what did you actually hear? Whose voices did you hear?

S. MIMS: I just heard the parents` voices. I never did hear a child`s voice at all.

CASAREZ: You know, since she was deaf, she was able to speak, but not speak loudly and it was a speaking that you may have not been able to hear along those walls.

S. MIMS: That`s true. It`s possible I didn`t hear her.

CASAREZ: All right. And now to tonight`s "CNN Heroes."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EVA MENDEZ, ACTRESS: Hello. I`m Eva Mendez. Last year I had the honor of helping to recognize the great works of everyday people changing the world at "CNN Heroes: An All-Star Tribute."

As a champion of the Art of Elysium, I`m committed to creating joy in the lives of hospitalized children. Now I`m thrilled to help CNN introduce one of this year`s top 10 honorees.

Now more than ever the world needs heroes.

GUADALUPE ARIZPE DE LA VEGA, CNN HERO: Juarez was a very nice place, and now nobody can go out. In this moment of crisis people have to have a secure place where healing goes on.

My name is Guadalupe Arizpe De La Vega. I started the Ospital de la Familia and it`s in downtown Juarez.

We have been working there for 37 years with the community. Every day we have from 800 to 1,000 people. Some of them can pay. Some of them cannot pay. But we don`t turn anybody away.

I believe that health is the most important of the human rights. Life is all about empowering people and it`s very important to have an institution giving them hope for the future.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CASAREZ: And now a look back at the stories making the headlines this week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ATKINS: We are running out of time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s 10 years old.

ATKINS: The longer this thing goes --

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The girl is hearing impaired and also has a prosthetic leg.

ATKINS: The likelihood this outcome will not be positive.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Three-year-old Cohen Johnson has passed away as a result of the injuries he sustained from his care provider.

GRACE: Bleeding skull fracture.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Twenty-five-year-old babysitter.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Amanda Skogen, arrested for first-degree murder.

ATKINS: The Amber Alert.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Amber Alert --

ATKINS: On Zahra Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Called off.

ATKINS: Canceled today.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The disappearance of little Zahra Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cancer patient.

GRACE: Hearing aid.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Lost her leg.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is now being investigated as a homicide.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say --

ATKINS: Elisa Baker --

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The step mom admitted she wrote a ransom note.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Two young boys, 4-year-old Jacob Quinones and 2-year-old Justin Quinones, snatched, abducted.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The toddlers were kidnapped.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re out there.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Around 8:00 here while she was putting trash out in this alley.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Top priority, find those two missing boys.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Elisa Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cops.

ATKINS: Elisa Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With $2,000 bond.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Elisa Baker in pink jumpsuit.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Zahra`s stepmom.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She has been charged with obstruction of justice.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Zahra`s dad Adam Baker --

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Dad Adam Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know how sincere his concern is.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A full scale search is under way today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: To find Zahra Baker.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cadaver dogs found blood and human remains.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve smelled it since Sunday. It was real bad last night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she says that she is not a killer.

GRACE: No one.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Elisa Baker.

GRACE: Repeat, no one --

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stepmom.

GRACE: -- is ruled out as a suspect.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

CASAREZ: Tonight let us stop to remember Army Specialist Darren Deblanc, 20 years old from Evansville, Indiana. He was killed in Iraq. He was awarded the Bronze Star and two, that`s right, two Purple Hearts.

He loved wrestling and basketball. He was remembered for making people laugh and being grateful for everything he had. He dreamed of going to college and being in law enforcement.

He leaves behind his mother, Judy, his stepfather, Chris, his brother Michael, and his nephew Eli.

Darren Deblanc, a true American hero.

Thank you so much to all of our guests. To you at home for being with us.

Tonight we want to wish one of the show`s stars, Liz, mother of a beautiful Olivia, a very, very happy birthday.

Liz, you`re one of my favorites. Thank you so much.

See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. Until then, good night, everybody.

END