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Nancy Grace
Baby Shaken to Death for Interrupting Mother`s Internet Time
Aired October 29, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight, to Florida. A young mom shakes her 3-month-old son to death all because he interrupts her while she`s playing a game on FaceBook. And the young mom tells investigators her baby boy hit his head after a dog knocked him off the couch, then later admits she violently shook her son because his crying interrupted her FaceBook game. She even tells investigators after laying her son`s body on the couch, she smoked a cigarette and then shook him again.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a shocking case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alexandra Victoria Tobias.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Florida mother was charged with murder after police say she shook her 3-month-old baby to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Called 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because he was interrupting mom`s FaceBook time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) her infant son (INAUDIBLE) stopped breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Baby Dylan (ph) was not breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pled guilty to second-degree murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tobias admitted to shaking Dylan violently multiple times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) shaking the child prior to calling 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would not stop crying while she was playing the game Farmville on FaceBook.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She got angry with her infant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tobias even went on to describes how after shaking the baby the first time, she went outside to smoke a cigarette to calm down and then went back inside and shook the baby again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tobias could get up to 50 years behind bars.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Tonight, a young mom shakes her 3-month-old son to death all because he interrupts her while she`s playing a game on FaceBook.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 3-month-old baby was violently shaken to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Life-threatening injuries.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was crying while his mother was playing Farmville on FaceBook.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shaking her 3-month-old son to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother, 22-year-old Alexandra Tobias.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charged with murder for the death of her son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shaking her baby Dylan to death inside their own home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He cried while she was playing Farmville on FaceBook.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tobias told cops she went outside to smoke a cigarette to compose herself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then shook him again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Suffered abusive head trauma.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) head trauma as the cause of death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tobias told cops that she shook Dylan about three times, and his head could have hit the computer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) child abuse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tobias remains behind bars on no bond.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: A difficult one to discuss tonight. We`re going to get through it somehow. Drew Petrimoulx, reporter, WDBO radio in Orlando, the latest, please.
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO RADIO: Well, she did plead guilty to murder in this case. She faces up to 50 years in prison for the crime. Apparently, what happened here was that she first told deputies that her dog knocked the baby off the couch, injuring his head, later died at the hospital. But when she was interviewed by investigators, she admitted that she was playing a FaceBook game. The baby wouldn`t stop crying. And then she shook the baby, causing it to injure its head and actually breaking its leg.
LALAMA: Oh, my goodness! Matt Zarrell, NANCY GRACE producer -- so she`s playing this game, which we`ll get to in a minute. Her story is inconsistent, correct?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes. What happened is she calls 911. The baby is transported to the hospital in grave condition. As is talked about, injuries to the head and a broken leg. The autopsy revealed abusive head trauma. When the people at the hospital spoke to her, she told the story about how the dog had knocked the child off the living room couch and that the baby had hit his head on the floor and that`s what caused him to stop breathing. However, when they looked at the injuries, they immediately knew it was not consistent. They called cops. Cops come in and talk to her, and that`s when she admits to what really happened.
LALAMA: Matt, let me just ask you real quickly -- she did call 911 herself?
ZARRELL: Yes, she did. She called 911, said the baby`s not breathing.
LALAMA: And did she call relatively soon after the fact? She didn`t sit around and have another cigarette?
ZARRELL: Well, we don`t know exactly when she called in relation to the injuries, but we do know that she admitted to cops that she violently shook the baby at least three times before she called 911.
LALAMA: All right. Now, before we go into this devastating case regarding this little wonderful child, I want to tell -- or go to Clark Goldband, who`s also a NANCY GRACE producer. Now, Clark, a lot of people aren`t familiar with Farmville. It`s some phenomenon on this social network site FaceBook. Explain it to those of us who don`t get it or know it.
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: It is smoking hot, Pat! It`s Farmville, and it`s on line. It`s one of the hottest applications on FaceBook. And as you can see behind me, it`s a virtual farm, where you start planting things, growing things. And then once you grow your food, your fruits and your vegetables, you sell them at market for virtual currency. And then you can expand your farm and buy cattle and horses and nice virtual items, if you will.
And what`s shocking is when you break down the numbers and look how popular this game actually is. We looked up some stats this afternoon, and as you can see, over 56 million monthly users are playing Farmville on line.
LALAMA: Wow.
GOLDBAND: Not only that, Pat...
LALAMA: Unbelievable.
GOLDBAND: ... it now generates over $150 million a year playing a virtual farming game.
LALAMA: Unbelievable. All right, we`ll get back to more about Farmville. Now let`s return to this horrific case. And I want to go right to a special guest, Darryl Gibbs, CEO of the Cynthia Gibbs Foundation. Daughter -- your daughter was the victim of shaken baby syndrome. We probably don`t have any clue how common this incident -- this kind of horrific thing really is, correct?
DARRYL GIBBS, CYNTHIA GIBBS FOUNDATION (via telephone): Yes, Pat, shaken baby syndrome is on the rise. You know, experts around the country, you know, have come to the conclusion that this happens within our society, you know, often. And as I said, it is on the rise. It is a very, very dangerous thing and probably one of the worst things that anyone can do to a child.
LALAMA: And we`re looking, of course, at pictures of your beautiful baby. Detective Lieutenant Steve Rogers, Nutley, New Jersey, police department, former member, FBI joint terrorism task force -- how does law enforcement deal with something like this? With shaken baby syndrome, with these kinds of issues, it`s hard to really identify this scenario, is it not?
DET. LT. STEVE ROGERS, NUTLEY, NJ, POLICE DEPT.: Well, they`re horrific cases. They are hard to identify. But more often than not, when people make that 911 call, I got to tell you, as in this case, they`re looking for an alibi, they`re making up a story. The key to cases like this is forensics, is the autopsy, is the medical examiner`s report. Once that report is given to the police, then the police know what they have to do, and that`s to go right to work on an interview.
LALAMA: Howard Oliver, former deputy medical examiner, forensic pathologist -- this mother claims she shook the baby three times. We`re talking about massive head injuries. We`re talking about a broken leg. Can we possibly believe that story?
HOWARD OLIVER, FORMER DPTY MEDICAL EXAMINER: Yes, that story is consistent. The broken leg, usually, or broken long bones, even including the clavicle, can go along with shaken baby syndrome.
LALAMA: It`s hard to imagine, though. You think of (INAUDIBLE) just shaking a child, but you`re saying with such a small child, we`re talking 14 weeks, it would be easy to fracture or break bones, even with a shake, correct?
OLIVER: Not so much with a shake. It was probably a separate injury. Shaking a baby would cause injury to the veins in the head. It may cause contusions, which are bruises inside the skull, on the surface of the brain. It would case tearing of the retinal veins. So that`s part of the injury -- of the syndrome that we see pathologically. The injury to the long bones were probably caused separately.
LALAMA: Yes, and Darryl Gibbs, that`s what I`m saying, that, you know, if that baby`s leg was broken, it wasn`t just a matter of shaking the child, would you suspect that?
GIBBS: Absolutely. She`s lying. There was much more than the violent shaking.
LALAMA: So sad. I`m speechless over this case! Susan Moss, family law attorney, child advocate, she is claiming her mother died. Gee whiz, I`m so sad, I haven`t been the same since. Your response?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: She`s not going to get a lot of good will when her defense is Farmville. Are you kidding me? She said she went out and she got a smoke so she could calm down, but then she came back and shook this child again! This woman is guilty! She should see no leniency! She should get her 25 years of life, and that`s what should happen!
LALAMA: You know, now, maybe I`m stretching it a bit here, Joey Jackson, defense attorney, but if this is the scenario, where she shakes the baby, it`s the heat of the moment, it`s not premeditated, OK, then she goes out and has herself a little cigarette, she`s got time to think about it, comes back and continues to finish the job, are we not talking about first degree there?
JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know what it is, Pat? Listen, I think under normal circumstances and dealing with a normal person, perhaps this doesn`t happen. But clearly, there had to be some psychological event or traumatic event or episode that she was undergoing at the time that this occurred to make her do this. You put your finger right on the pulse of this, is to what degree is she guilty? She`s already pled guilty to second degree murder. And I don`t think that it was a premeditated event. I think it`s an event that`s unfortunate, it`s horrific, it shouldn`t have happened. But right now...
LALAMA: Yes, but...
JACKSON: Go ahead. I`m sorry.
LALAMA: Well, let me go to Kirby Clements (ph), defense attorney. She stopped to have a cigarette. I mean, that is so calculating to me! Oh, gee, yes, I`m -- you know, my baby`s crying and it`s the heat of the moment. And then you go, you have a cigarette, you take some time. Your baby`s probably struggling wherever the poor child was laying. She comes back and says, I`m going to finish the baby off now. Please!
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, those facts do look very damning, as you have put them. But I would suggest to you that there is some psychological issue going on here. Also, there may be some post- partum issues. So maybe the smoking of the cigarette -- it wasn`t like she said, I`m going to take a time out and then come back and finish beating the baby up. It clearly is something else going on here. So it reads probably much worse than it actually what in terms of what was going on in this woman`s life.
But clearly, clearly, she snapped. And the smoking of the cigarette maybe was a time for her to actually call 911. Unfortunately, she went back in there and then -- and resumed. But I think it`s probably much more of a psychological trauma, perhaps with the mother, perhaps post-partum depression, those two combined. But obviously, killing a 14-week-old mother, a mother doing that, there had to be something wrong with her.
LALAMA: I hope I don`t mangle this name, Dr. Srini Pillay. Did I say that correctly?
DR. SRINIVASAN PILLAY, PSYCHIATRIST: That`s correct.
LALAMA: OK, Harvard psychiatrist, author, "Life Unlocked: Seven Revolutionary Lessons to Overcoming Fear." Give us the psychological component of this. Everyone`s outraged. Some are more willing to say she had some screws loose in her brain.
PILLAY: You know, I think in a case like this, it`s really impossible to offer more than just conjecture because I think the psychological component could range all the way from someone who had inappropriate anger with impaired judgment, to someone who had that impaired judgment with underlying psychological vulnerabilities. And so in a case like this, where we`re seeing primitive anger, where we`re seeing sort of anger that`s inappropriately directed at the child, psychological factors and vulnerabilities could or could not play a role.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Florida mother was charged with murder after police say she shook her 3-month-old baby to death because he was interrupting mom`s FaceBook time. Twenty-two-year-old mom Alexandra Tobias called 911 to report her baby, Dylan, was not breathing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Florida mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-two-year-old Alexandra Tobias.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charged with murder for the death of her son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tobias admitted to violently shaking Dylan violently multiple times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She admitted to shaking the child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because he would not stop crying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shaking the baby (INAUDIBLE) severe head trauma to the child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While she was playing the game Farmville on FaceBook.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The infant died from his injuries.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Alexandra Tobias told Jacksonville police she got angry with her infant because he cried.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Violently shaken to death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While she was playing Farmville on FaceBook.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She faces up to 50 years in prison.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: OK, Matt Zarrell, NANCY GRACE producer, does she have a history of violence?
ZARRELL: Not that we know of, although this is what`s interesting, though, Pat. There was an incident only three weeks before the baby was killed where she and the baby`s father had gotten into a domestic fight at the home. The child, the baby, Dylan, was there. Police go to the home. They filed a report. They arrest both of them. They intend to inform DCF. Now, we spoke to DCF today, and they said that they received incomplete information. They did not get the whole police report. They did not know that the child was involved in fight, but just there was a domestic dispute between these two people.
LALAMA: But Drew Petrimoulx, wasn`t she supposed to go to anger management?
PETRIMOULX: Not too sure of the details on what arose from that DCF case. But a lot of times, what happens when DCF gets involved in this case, they have such a difficult decision whether to take the child away or not because, obviously, the child is best with the mother, but when you have a mother that`s been, you know, arrested in a violent act, it`s just a tough decision to make when officials get involved.
LALAMA: Our caller is patiently waiting, would love to weigh on this, I`m sure. Dorothy in Georgia, good evening.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good evening. My question is, I would like to know, could she have been on drugs? And did she have other children? This is just so horrible. And did she have a criminal background? But I think you had just answered that question. But that`s my question tonight, could she be on drugs? Did she have other children?
LALAMA: Back to Drew, very quickly. I don`t think there`s any indication that she was a drug abuser.
PETRIMOULX: As far as her criminal record, no. I mean, you know, you never know what people are doing and they don`t get caught with. But as far as we have learned, she did not have a criminal history for drug abuse. But I mean, again, she did -- was arrested for a violent confrontation with the baby`s mother (SIC). So not a completely clean background.
LALAMA: Darryl Gibbs from the Cynthia Gibbs Foundation, if you shake once, are you likely to have been a shaker or to shake again? These kinds of incidents are not isolated, are they?
GIBBS: Well, here`s what we know. We know that 40 percent of shaken babies show signs that they were shaken on other occasions. So it just -- it goes to tell us that, you know, when children are shaken, it`s more likely that they were shaken before.
LALAMA: Now, what kind of sentence are we talking about, Matt Zarrell?
ZARRELL: Talking about 25 to 50 years, is the sentencing guideline. But Pat, here`s where it gets interesting and sad. The district attorney insinuated that the penalty, the sentence that she is going to get may not be as large as the guidelines. So she is possibly looking at less than 25 years for the violent shaking death of her baby.
LALAMA: Oh, wow. Susan Moss, Joey Jackson, Kirby Clements, let`s talk about this. You know, it`s an emotional case. We`re all shooting from the hip because we`re so distraught over it. But let`s talk about what`s fair. Susan Moss, she`s getting a break. Why?
MOSS: Instead of harvesting her virtual crop, she should have been taking care of her little tot! There`s no reason why she should get any leniency in this case! Should she get leniency, ee-aye, ee-aye, no.
LALAMA: Joey?
JACKSON: This is an aberrational event. I don`t think it represents who this person is. I think it was an isolated incident. And you have to look at a person`s history. There`s no elongated criminal history here, Pat, at all. This is one thing that she did, and she has to be measured by the totality of her life, not a single event. And on that basis, she will be given a lot less than the guidelines provide.
LALAMA: Kirby, this is so heinous!
CLEMENTS: It is heinous, but IO think you have to factor in this, that she`s realizing that she is responsible for killing her baby. So no matter what you do to her, she`s going to be in a prison in her mind for the rest of her life. So we can make every -- make society feel better by putting her away and throwing away the key, but the reality is, what purpose is that really going to serve? I think we have to look at her and her lack of history.
LALAMA: You`re saying then -- well, let`s see if Susan agrees. You think there`s any guilt or this woman`s going to live with guilt?
MOSS: Oh, absolutely not! It`s because of her that this child bought a farm! she needs to be fully punished to the full extent! There`s a reason why we have sentencing guidelines, and those guidelines should stick!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tobias admitted to shaking Dylan violently multiple times because he would not stop crying while she was playing the game Farmville on FaceBook. Tobias even went on to describe how after shaking the baby the first time...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-two-year-old mom Alexandra Tobias.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Told police she shook little Dylan.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say she shook her 3-month-old baby to death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Smoked a cigarette to calm herself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her infant son (INAUDIBLE) Dylan (INAUDIBLE) had stopped breathing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then shook him again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because he was interrupting mom`s FaceBook time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The baby`s crying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He would not stop crying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) enough to (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While she was on FaceBook playing the popular game Farmville.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Back to Clark Goldband -- excuse me -- from NANCY GRACE, our producer. This business of Farmville is so astonishing to me. You`re talking 56 million people. A lot of us don`t understand it. You tried to explain it. But here`s a component that`s really important. She was in this moment really upset about being interrupted. Why? You might have an answer for that.
GOLDBAND: Pat, we spoke with people this afternoon and this evening from all walks of life who play Farmville. Here`s the takeaway. You plant these virtual crops -- for instance, raspberries. You have two hours -- it`ll take two hours to grow. So you plant it, let`s say, at 8:00. It grows at 10:00. Since it took two hours to grow, it has two hours to harvest. So if you do not pick these virtual raspberries in two hours, your crop will die. If your crop dies, you don`t have the virtual currency to expand your farm and purchase new crops and equipment. So you have a very finite amount of time to pick your virtual crops on Farmville. Time is of the essence.
LALAMA: Oh, my gosh! You know what? I cannot believe we are having this conversation. I just can`t believe it. And to add to that, I know a woman who said her children are consistently -- have been recently consistently late for school because she`s locked on Farmville. Dr. Srini Pillay, is this a newfound American or worldwide global obsession?
PILLAY: Well, I think computer addiction has actually been widely described, and people can become so obsessed with things, that this kind of time pressure creates stress. Now, what stress does is, stress and anxiety actually turn off the conscious brain and leave you with your unconscious brain when you`re making decisions. And I think under conditions like that, inappropriate anger like the anger that we saw, can manifest. So yes, I think that actually getting distracted by a game and increasing your stress level and then getting engaged and then being incredibly anger about the interruption is a procedure -- is a process that probably occurred.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The autopsy revealed the little boy suffered abusive head trauma. When later questioned by cops, Tobias admitted to shaking Dylan violently multiple times because he would not stop crying while she was playing the game Farmville on FaceBook.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Abusive head trauma is the cause of death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a shocking case of a Florida mother charged with murder.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Second degree murder for shaking her 3- month-old son to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alexandra Victoria Tobias reports that her infant son had stopped breathing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PAT BROWN, HLN HOST: Dylan was taken to the hospital with injuries to his head and a broken leg. The autopsy reveals the little boy suffered abusive head trauma.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shaken the baby. Caused the head injury.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Because he was crying while his mother was playing "Farmville" on Facebook. Tobias told cops that she shook Dillon about three times and his head could have hit the computer.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Detective Lieutenant Steve Rogers, apparently this young lady confessed not just to cops but to like a cell mate of some sort and talked about how the child may have hit a computer. I mean she`s pretty much given herself up. This is pretty lock solid confession, wouldn`t you say?
DET. LT. STEVE ROGERS, NUTLEY, NEW JERSEY, POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, except that, keep in mind this, that just because she pleaded guilty and confessed to what she says happened doesn`t mean the investigation is over. The place where this child was killed becomes a crime scene. The police will process that crime scene.
In the back of my mind, to be frank with you is, is it a true story? Was it all about "Farmville"? Or was there somebody else there? Why did she.
BROWN: Hmn.
ROGERS: Why did she take the rap? Police have a lot of questions, I believe, and until they`re satisfied, this case may not be closed as we think it is.
BROWN: Well, you`re opening the door for a good defense attorney to come up with some questions, right, Joe Jackson? You have with you -- would -- you know, this confession, what she`s claiming, are you questioning it? Would you try to pull back that confession? What would you do with this case?
JOE JACKSON, ATTORNEY: Well, you know what, Pat, it all depends. And it depends on whether the matter is going to trial. You mentioned about the inmate and what statements the inmate alleged that, you know, are attributable to her.
Now, you have to look at that inmate`s credibility. You have to look at what offer -- what is being offered to that inmate. Are they given leniency? Are they allowed to leave the facility as a result of it?
So, you never want to take at face value what an inmate tells you occurred unless subject to further investigation. But here`s a person who has accepted responsibility, and I think it`s going to go a lot to mitigating the sentence in this case. The fact that she did stand up and she said, look, I did this, it was, you know, by all means my fault in all regard, it shouldn`t have happened, it did happen. And I think the judge will take that into account in terms of giving her an appropriate sentence.
BROWN: I would have like to take another caller now. Nancy in Nebraska, good evening, your question please?
NANCY, NEBRASKA RESIDENT: Hi, I`m with Susan Moss on this. It seems to me if they charge these girls with first-degree murder, you know, she had to get up from the computer and go over to this little kid and pick him up so there`s premeditation there. Maybe this stuff would stop. If these girls don`t want these kids, why don`t they give them away?
BROWN: Susan Moss, would you like to reply?
SUSAN MOSS, ATTORNEY: Absolutely. Look at the facts of this case. She went out and had a cigarette. She tried to calm her nerves and what happens when she came back in? She started to shake the child again. Also don`t forget that when the police, when she spoke to the police at first, she lied and she told them a whole different story.
If she -- this was truly a mistake, if she was truly sorry, she would have originally come clean and told what really happened. Instead, she made up some fantasy lie about a dog and that shows her true motivation, which is not something that should be mitigated, but she should be punished to the full extent of the law.
BROWN: And Kirby Clements, defense attorney, I keep returning to this -- I`m picturing this young woman stopping the abuse, going out to light up and coming back. I can`t get past that. And it just seems so vile to me.
KIRBY CLEMENTS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, it really is very vile and I -- but I think the psychiatrist that you had on earlier really talked about it. When you`re talking about psychological trauma and when people have psychological problems, they do very bad things, very tragic things. And while it looks horrible to us like she was just a normal person, and she just got up, started beating her child, went out and had a cigarette and came back and resumed it.
Given the history that we do know about her, her finding her mother dead, the fact that there is some violence in the home now. There are all the precursors, and plus there`s a newborn child, the precursor to post-partum depression. A lot of things could have gone on here. So it looks bad, but I can tell you, people with psychological trauma do some very bad things. And it`s sad but it`s the product of psychological trauma and not an evil heart.
BROWN: Darrell Gibbs , what should we look for? I mean, are there any kind of clues that we, thankfully, we don`t shake our babies, can look for in other people?
DARRYLL GIBBS, DAUGHTER CYNTHIA KILLED BY BABYSITTER: You know, the fact of the matter is this, anyone can shake a baby, and that`s what society doesn`t, I guess, understand. Anyone can shake a baby. As far as people that are most likely to do it, experts say that, you know, males in their 20s are the most likely perpetrators. But young parents, people that are stressed, are again at high risk of shaking a child. And in this fact, look what happened.
BROWN: You`ve done a wonderful things by starting the Cynthia Gibbs Foundation, would you like to tell us about your personal story?
GIBBS: Oh, absolutely. My daughter Cynthia was my last daughter, and born happy, healthy and safe. And at 8 months old, she was violently shaken by her New York state-certified child care provider.
Now in our case, my daughter`s killer again had no criminal history. So, again, I want to share with everyone that anyone can do this. My daughter`s killer, no criminal history. She was later prosecuted and found guilty of manslaughter in the second-degree, is in state prison, has never apologized nor taken responsibility.
And as Cynthia`s father, I just felt that it was my responsibility to make something good out of something so terrible. So I have spent the last 10 years of my life educating America and beyond about the dangers of shaking children. And to date, I`ve passed five laws in New York state and I`m working on a bill in Congress to educate America to protect the 4 million children born every year across America.
BROWN: Such a noble cause and such an admirable thing, I have to tell you.
Howard Oliver, a forensic pathologist, when we look at this child and the seriousness, I mean, I guess I came into the show thinking you shake a baby that, you know, maybe there could be some neck injury. I never imagined, because you don`t think of it that it`s a lot more serious. So many other things can go wrong and you`re probably not just shaking the child, it`s probably hitting objects as it seems to be in this case.
What do we look for? What can we do?
HOWARD OLIVER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, to achieve this much damage, the baby had to have been violently shaken. You know, just moderately and mildly shaking a baby would not cause this damage.
BROWN: Right.
OLIVER: Violently shaking a baby can cause, you know, these deadly injuries. It can rip veins. It can fracture cervical vertebrae. It can tear the retina loose in the eyes.
Most of the time you don`t see any sequelae to these injuries. As a matter of fact, one-third of the babies that are shaken aren`t discovered at all. They may have some long-term sequelae like some brain injury leading to retardation, or cerebral palsy or something like that. But it`s a very hard thing to discern when it`s been done unless they were violently shaken and died.
BROWN: Well, perhaps Dr. Srini Pillay, maybe the thing we need to look for is the behavior in the parent and if we see a parent losing it or having some sort of psychological imbalance, we try to help them get help before it happens?
PILLAY: Absolutely. You know, I think the studies have shown that child abuse occurs at a much higher rate in people who have stress, anxiety or depression. And in fact, people who have been abused themselves as children often end up being abusers.
So I think to the extent that we can highlight these vulnerabilities and then address them early on, we`re much more likely to prevent child abuse of any kind.
BROWN: Yes, we should all get involved in that, for sure.
Drew Petrimoulx, when she is scheduled -- I`m assuming there will be no trial because I believe the prosecutor said because there`s no trial we`re going to save the family some agony. So I`m guessing we`re jumping right to sentencing?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO RADIO: Well, she did plead guilty, so there won`t be a jury trial and the judge did say that he thought that would be the best thing for these --the families. And as far as sentencing, 25 to 50 years later this year, we expect.
BROWN: And Matt Zarell, she remains incarcerated, where is she? What`s her -- do we know what her mental state is, how she`s behaving?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, we don`t know about her mental state or whether she might be on suicide watch or getting counseling. We don`t know about that. One thing I want to note, the sentencing for her is December 6. At this point, they don`t think she`s going to get the 25 to 50 years. But that remains to be seen. She is in a Jacksonville county jail, no bond right now.
BROWN: Susan Moss, I mean, it`s possible she could really relive over and over again the misery of what she`s done. Any chance of rehabilitation for someone like this in your mind?
MOSS: Well, first of all, she has to admit what she did, OK. So that was step one. But what she really has to understand is that now this child has no chance. Is there a possibility for rehabilitation? I certainly hope so, but what she should do is what Mr. Gibbs is doing and spend the rest of her life trying to educate -- educate young mothers about how dangerous it is when you shake your child.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: A 22-year-old Alexandra Tobias now faces up to 50 years in jail for shaking her baby, Dylan, to death inside their own home. Tobias admitted to shaking Dylan multiple times because he would not stop crying while she was on Facebook playing the popular game Farmville.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: A 3-month-old baby was violently shaken to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Life-threatening injuries.
BROWN: He was crying while his mother was playing Farmville on Facebook.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shaking her 3-month-old son to death.
BROWN: The mother, 22-year-old Alexandra Tobias --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charge with murder for the death of her son.
BROWN: Shaking her baby Dylan to death inside their own home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He cried while she was playing Farmville on Facebook.
BROWN: Tobias told cops she went outside to smoke a cigarette to compose herself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Then shook him again.
BROWN: Suffered abusive head trauma.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Abuse of head trauma is the cause of death.
BROWN: Tobias told cops that she shook Dylan about three times, and his head could have hit the computer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Grave child abuse.
BROWN: Tobias remains behind bars on no bond.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: OK, Matt Zarell, we have a 22-year-old mother, single mother, with a 14 week-old child, what else about her life do we know? Did she work? Did she have a family? Did she have a support system, anything?
ZARELL: Well, what we do know is that as of now she did not have a job at the moment that she was arrested and how this has gone on. She did not have a job, so we don`t know if she was getting any income coming in.
We also know that her mother had died recently. And she had told friends from behind bars and family that she used that as an excuse. That she thought that might be a factor in all of this. That because of her recent mother`s death that might have contributed to it.
BROWN: No job, but money for cigarettes apparently.
And Clark Goldband, NANCY GRACE producer, you know, getting back to this Farmville business, you can actually get yourself in a financial obsession with it too, right? Can`t you buy crops? I don`t really know how it works. Explain it to me.
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: You sure can, Pat. And you know, while your earn virtual currency for farming on Farmville, you can also obtain things by using real money, a credit card.
For example, we have searched and found you can spend up to $50 purchasing virtual goods on Farmville. And you hear people say, oh, it`s just a computer game, people don`t get so into it, but, Pat, we`ve heard stories that people will miss meetings, call out sick from work and even set alarms at 3:00 or 4:00 a.m. so they can till their crops.
BROWN: Yes. You know, Clark, I`m just thinking, we`ve got intervention and we`ve got hoarders, and now we`re going to have a show about people obsessed with Internet games.
GOLDBAND: The game is huge.
BROWN: I mean, it`s absolutely shocking to me. Absolutely shocking. You`re talking 57 million people. And by the way, you`re looking at pictures -- we`re looking at pictures of Alexandra Tobias and baby Dylan from MySpace.
I hope we have got time. I believe we have time for some other callers.
Kimberly in Arizona. Good evening, Kimberly.
KIMBERLY, ARIZONA RESIDENT (via telephone): Good evening. First of all, I would like to put a statement, Mr. Gibbs, your daughter is beautiful. My next question, you hear all of this stuff about the radio, music, and those TV violence and how it brings out the violence in a lot of people. Are they going to try and get Facebook to be responsible for it? And where was her family at this time? And the baby`s father?
BROWN: Well, you know, let`s take that. That`s a good question. You know, Detective Lieutenant Steve Rogers, there`s so much going on now with the Internet. There are so many -- I know police task forces have Internet crime task forces and you can`t keep up, because the laws aren`t really in line with what`s going on in the internet.
You can bully someone to death and there`s really no crime. You can get obsessed with Farmville and shake your baby to death, and there`s really no crime. But it`s a problem for law enforcement, is it not?
ROGERS: It is a very serious problem. And let me say this to you, Pat, as the economy continues to go on the downside. People are going to be fantasizing, and this is what they use the Internet for, as you can see in this Farmville case. The fact of the matter is that we seem to be going, and when I say we, law enforcement, we`re responding to high rates of domestic violence, we`re responding to at least -- and I`m talking nationally, child abuse is increasing, all as a result of the pressures and stresses that are coming on people. They`re using the Internet and these games as an escape. It`s not a escape, it`s only compounding a problem more.
BROWN: All right. Who has to go to Vegas when you can play Farmville?
Susan Moss, that would be a stretch to blame anybody, any entity from the Internet for this, though, correct?
MOSS: Well, I`m not blaming them, but we need help to find a solution. Facebook should be involved in the process of trying to figure out how to lessen the stress on people, and that may be changing the way that Farmville works. The Internet also has a responsibility as a corporate citizen and we as people should hold them to that responsibility.
BROWN: But Joe Jackson and Kirby Clemens, you can`t -- I mean, you can`t legislate people playing a game on the Internet. If they want to play it, they play it. They`re responsible for their own behavior -- Joe?
JACKSON: Yes, that`s absolutely true, Pat. There are limits. But, you know, Facebook certainly needs to be a responsible partner and we have to get the word out about incidents like this.
I mean, these are very stressful and difficult times, and people are very apt to go nuts during the course of these times. And it`s incumbent upon all of us to educate ourselves more about these things, and that`s why I give Mr. Gibbs and his foundation a ton of credit, perhaps they could prevent these things from happening in the future.
BROWN: Kirby, very quickly, Internet responsibility? Quickly.
CLEMENS: I think no. I think that there were other stressors outside of this. The Internet may have triggered it. But life outside of the Internet is what caused this problem.
BROWN: Yes, I mean, you get in this case, how do you blame Facebook? People choose to play it and then the beautiful young child is dead now because of it, though.
Tonight, happier, happier things to talk about here. "CNN Heroes."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SELENA GOMEZ, SINGER: Hi, I`m Selena Gomez. Two years ago at "CNN Heroes: An All Star Tribute," I had the honor of helping to recognize the great works of everyday people changing the world. As an ambassador for UNICEF, I`m committed to protecting and caring for children around the world. And I`m thrilled to help CNN introduce one of this year`s top ten honorees. Now more than ever, the world needs heroes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EVANS WADONGO, YOUNG WONDER: I have problems with my eyesight due to prolonged exposure to smoke. And I had to use firewood to study during my childhood.
They don`t have electricity. It`s only kerosene and firewood that they use for lighting, cooking.
It`s very, very frustrating, I couldn`t compete effectively. A lot of other kids just drop out of school. So they remain poor for the rest of their life.
My name is Evans Wadongo.
When I made the first lantern, I thought I must find a way of using solar to light up rural homes.
The amount of money that every household uses to buy kerosene every day. If they can just save that money, they can be able to buy food.
It gives me satisfaction knowing that I`m lifting people out of poverty. I just feel like it`s right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HOST, THE JOY BEHAR SHOW: Put down that remote. I`m coming up next. Yes, I`m talking to you, sir.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And now a look back at the rest of the stories making headlines this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Key piece of evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A prosthetic leg.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there some sort of evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Discovered late yesterday afternoon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They`ve got evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Consistent with the description of Zahra Baker`s left prosthesis.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Zahra`s prosthetic leg has been found on a back country road not far from the road itself. And at this hour, the FBI inside the Baker home searching it into the night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The gruesome investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shocking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say 44-year-old mom Michelle Kalina killed five of her infants.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After Michelle Kalina was arrested they said that they had found this container that was filled with cement. They thought that there were more human remains in there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 3-day-old baby boy was killed by the family pit bull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A dog attacked and killed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 3-day-old newborn baby boy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a picture of the pit bull that killed Justin Valentin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now police are investigating if the child was left unsupervised.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say Susan Rice slipped her husband the date rape drug. Then put candle wax on his body while they were in bed and then stabbed him 200 times.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, Joe, hold on a moment. Are you telling me after they dig the guy up out of the backyard, after the dogs chewed off his left hand, they can still see the ligature marks on his wrists?
GOLDBAND: That`s what I`m telling you, Nancy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Alisa Baker --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Has reportedly been brought out to a new search areas.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing ever upset her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From the jail --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Less than a mile from where Alisa Baker used to live.
GRACE: That can only mean one thing. Either they found the body or they think they have a location where the body may be.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Tonight let`s stop and remember Marine Sergeant David Coullard, 32, of Glastonbury, Connecticut killed in Iraq. He was awarded several medals including the Purple Heart and Navy and Marine Corps achievement medal. He loved target shooting, hunting, snowmobiling and deep sea fishing. He also liked taking pictures of wildlife. He leaves behind mother Anita, uncles and aunts Craig and Donna, and Joan and Phil. David Coullard. American hero.
Thank you to all of our guests, and to you at home for being with us. See you tomorrow night at 8:00 sharp Eastern.
A special happy birthday to our Ohio friend of the show, Miriam. Happy bucked-eye birthday, Miriam McMahon (ph). Stay tune. And until then good night, everybody.
END
