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Joy Behar Page
Death Penalty for Steven Hayes; Missing Woman`s Husband Speaks Out; Charlie Sheen`s Lawyer Speaks Out
Aired November 08, 2010 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: MSNBC firebrand Keith Olbermann is scheduled to be back at work tomorrow. Full disclosure here, I recently gave $2,000 to George Clooney. I know he wasn`t running for anything. I just wanted him to like me. He likes me, right? I think he likes me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, an exclusive interview with Charlie Sheen`s attorney Yale Galanter. From Sheen`s domestic abuse charges to the Plaza Hotel rampage, Yale answers all the questions about his erratic client.
Then Utah mother of two Susan Powell has been missing for almost a year. So why now is her husband blaming Powell and her family for the disappearance?
Plus he`s back. Conan O`Brien returns to television tonight. But will his viewers return, too?
That and more starting now.
BEHAR: After four days of deliberation, a Connecticut jury has sentenced Stephen Hayes to death for the gruesome home invasion murders of Jennifer Hawke-Petit and her two daughters. Dr. William Petit, the sole survivor, reacted to the sentencing earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. WILLIAM PETIT, HOME INVASION SURVIVOR: This is a verdict for justice. I think the jury took its time, listened to the evidence and made an appropriate and just decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Here with me now are Pat Brown, criminal profiler and CEO of the Pat Brown Criminal Profiling Agency; and Ashleigh Banfield, ABC news correspondent.
Ashleigh, he got the death penalty. How long will it take before this guy`s actually dead?
ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Actually, that`s a great question. It could be 20 years. It could be a few years. Really, a lot of it depends on his decisions. He may say, you know what? I never wanted to live in the first place. He`s tried to commit suicide already in jail. So he may actually try to eschew those appeals that are guaranteed for all of us.
BEHAR: I see. Pat, is there any grounds for -- are there any grounds for an appeal?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: God, I would hope not, Joy. I mean this guy clearly premeditated this homicide. When he went in there with his little buddy they had no intention of ever letting those people go. And he had seven hours to change his little mind, he deliberated himself, he gave them all the death penalty. They get no appeal.
I would surely hope that with the outrageous, horrifying, heinous acts that he committed, no one would consider there`s a reason to give this man an appeal.
BANFIELD: The appeals are automatic. You always -- in every death penalty case --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, that`s true.
BANFIELD: -- in America will get an automatic appeal. He may just choose after that filing to say look, let`s just walk away from this. I prefer to end this now.
Timothy McVeigh didn`t take a lot of time. He said no, not interested in fighting.
BROWN: I don`t know. He might change his mind in a little while after he gets used to being in jail and wants to have some more fun with the public. I don`t believe that. I think he might well turn around.
BEHAR: Didn`t at the beginning of this case, didn`t he try -- his lawyer tried to avoid the death penalty?
BANFIELD: They did. Both of them.
Joshua Komisarjevsky`s and Steven Hayes` attorneys put that on the table and said look, we will plead guilty to all of this and spare everybody the horridness of having to go to trial if you just spare us our live. It was Dr. Petit who played an integral role to say to prosecutors, no way.
BEHAR: So he wanted to live, Steven Hayes.
BANFIELD: At that time. That was early in the game. Then he tried to commit suicide by collecting up all the pills he was being given and actually taking them all at once.
BEHAR: Well, he wanted to make it easy on himself.
BROWN: Or he wanted to pretend he wanted to commit suicide because that also happens in prison as well. You just want to say, look at me, I`m suffering, I`m feeling bad about what I did. You do that so you can get attention; so you can get some sympathy. A lot of times if they don`t succeed, it`s because they really didn`t want to.
BEHAR: It`s interesting that Connecticut has now gone with the death penalty. They were on the verge of eliminating it.
BANFIELD: Oh. Are you -- this has been such a political case. The entire legislature of Connecticut said let`s get rid of the death penalty - - but for this case. The governor said, "You know what, I`m not going to sign that bill. I have seen Dr. Petit appeal to you legislators and say please don`t do this and I`m going to side with Dr. Petit and keep this on the books." And this case was pretty much the reason for it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well he, Petit really -- Dr. Petit really did want the death penalty, right?
BANFIELD: Oh right from the get go, yes.
BEHAR: What else did he say besides what we know? What else did he say?
BANFIELD: What did Steven Hayes say?
BEHAR: No, no. Petit.
BANFIELD: Dr. Petit?
BEHAR: Yes.
BANFIELD: Well, you know, Dr. Petit has been unbelievable throughout all of this. He`s been present for almost every single jury selection hearing which took six months. He was there for every day of trial. He`s been stalwart.
Many of us have been bewildered as to how he could have actually gone through all this. He has said he`ll see this through the next set of juries and trials, too.
BEHAR: Ok. That brings us to the other suspect. The Josh Komisarjevsky trial is slated to begin next year, Pat. Could this outcome have any bearing on that outcome?
BROWN: Well, I certainly think there`s a little bit of a precedence set here that people still want that death penalty. That certainly the victims in this particular case -- victim that`s left here wants that death penalty.
So I think that yes, I think it will influence it. And I think fact that the defense attorney kept trying to say that Hayes had some kind of silly diminished capacity, that the victim caused her own death by calling the police, so he thought. He blamed it on the victim.
But, you know, he was able to murder her in cold blood and rape her afterwards. So I think he pretty much knew what he was doing, he`s just one sick individual. So I think this will have an effect.
BEHAR: Ok. All right.
Let`s talk about another case; another awful story out there. About a year ago 28-year-old Utah mother Susan Powell went missing. Her husband Josh Powell, whom cops call a person of interest, is finally breaking his silence. He claims she was mentally unstable and that`s why she ran away. Her parents are fighting back saying it is not true. They talked to ABC`s "Good Morning America" this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CHUCK COX, SUSAN POWELL`S FATHER: It`s blatantly untrue. I just can`t imagine -- it`s obviously a self-serving statement. I don`t -- it`s untrue, it`s all untrue.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Pat, why do you think Josh Powell is speaking out now?
BROWN: Well, I think first of all he`s exhibiting real psychopathic behaviors just like we saw with Hayes trying to blame the victim. He`s trying to push the guilt onto somebody else and push, maybe, the investigation off or convince people that he had nothing to do with it.
But his stories conflict and they`re really garbage. First of all, he says that she ran away to be with some unknown lover. And then he claims her own parents have her in captivity and that they always wanted her to be a perfect person.
Wait a minute. Which one was it? Did she run away or do the parents have her in hiding? I mean those are two different stories right there.
BEHAR: Right.
BROWN: It`s ridiculous.
BEHAR: And Ashleigh, his original alibi was kind of strange also. Tell us what he said when she first went missing -- where he was.
BANFIELD: True, this is just about the only time he`s ever spoken to the press. And it was because he was caught walking somewhere. And he said I was out winter camping that night. I bundled up my 2-year-old in diapers and my 4-year-old at about midnight and took them about 20 miles out in a subfreezing blizzard to go winter camping on a Sunday night before I had to go to work and, you know, kids would go to preschool. It was absolutely absurd. But he sticks by it.
BEHAR: He sticks by it and they can`t do anything about that?
BANFIELD: He doesn`t even know where he was camping. He can`t take investigators back there.
BEHAR: He doesn`t know where he was camping.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: You know with a blizzard he couldn`t -- he couldn`t see his way out there it was such a blizzard.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: As long as that body doesn`t show up any place he`s been he doesn`t have to confess to anything. But something else interesting right now, he`s claiming -- remember there was a wet spot on the carpet that the fans were blowing on. And of course, people thought maybe it was blood on the carpet that he had tried to get rid of.
Now he`s blaming Susan for that, too. He said that she dropped some kind of red substance there and she was trying to clean it. But mind you - -
BEHAR: What was it?
BROWN: Well, we don`t know yet. Here`s what`s really funny about the whole. He says she`s running off with her lover. She`s abandoning her family, abandoning her children and her husband, running off with a lover. She`s going to stop to worry about the carpet. Oh, I don`t want to leave an unclean carpet for the man I don`t care about and the children I don`t care about. Let me clean the carpet before I leave town.
BANFIELD: What is astounding about this little claim of a red spot, that`s the first time anyone has ever said there was something red on the carpet because there is a huge gag order in this case. Police aren`t saying a word about this. They`ve not addressed that issue at all.
So they`re coming out. Josh and his father Steven, they`re coming out to say there was a red spot she tried to clean. No one has ever said it was juice, no one has ever said it was red. How would Steven know, by the way? Steven`s the one offering this. He wasn`t living there. He wasn`t there that night. But he`s the one offering the --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Well, he and his father seem to be blaming the victim.
BANFIELD: Oh, there`s a Web site where they throw a lot of that.
BEHAR: The girl`s missing and she was sexually aggressive, he said. She ran off with a guy. Her parents are, as you said, they`re keeping her hostage or whatever.
BANFIELD: No one else, by the way, is saying this and there`s no evidence at all.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Not only that, he`s saying this a year later. He didn`t even say this when it happened. This was when it was fresh in his mind. If he was trying to find her to prove that he wasn`t guilty, why didn`t he come up with that evidence or these stories right away? This is after a year that he`s coming up with this new garbage.
BANFIELD: And by the way Joy, here`s another issue. If he really feels this about her, if he feels that she abandoned her family and ran off with a man and is unstable, why wouldn`t he seek divorce? Why wouldn`t he seek custody of these children? There is nothing on the record that attests (ph) that.
BEHAR: A lot of times you hear stories likes this where the man would rather -- I don`t know, I`m not going to say it -- allegedly kills the wife rather than sue for divorce.
BANFIELD: But even now. But even now. Why not do it now? But he`s not doing it. He knows something.
BEHAR: Because he knows something.
Ok. This is very interesting. We`ll follow this story. Thanks very much guys.
Up next, the sparks will fly as Charlie Sheen`s lawyer and I go mano a mano. You don`t want to miss this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, the latest on Keith Olbermann`s two-day suspension from MSNBC.
And Conan O`Brien returns to late night. But will his viewers return, too? Now back to Joy.
BEHAR: Cocaine on face, porn star in bathroom, hotel room in shambles; these are the allegations about one night Charlie Sheen recently spent in New York`s Plaza Hotel. And what a night it was.
Here to talk about it is a man who`s got more on his plate than the head of homeland security, Charlie Sheen`s criminal defense lawyer, Yale Galanter. Welcome to the show.
YALE GALANTER, CHARLIE SHEEN`S LAWYER: Hi, Joy.
BEHAR: There`s been a lot of stories about the night Sheen reportedly trashed the hotel. What did he tell you happened?
GALANTER: I can`t discuss anything that my client told me specifically, but what we need to really do is separate fact from fiction and talk about the facts.
The Plaza Hotel has never made a statement that Charlie Sheen trashed the room. There have been all kinds of rumors, all kinds of tabloid reports about $7,000, $12,000 -- no, that was the amount she was supposed to have gotten paid -- $20,000. But the truth of the matter is that the Plaza never filed charges. They never made an official announcement that the room was trashed or in any way damaged.
BEHAR: That could be because they don`t want the publicity or go after Charlie Sheen. He probably sent them a check.
GALANTER: Or it could be because it didn`t happen and he hasn`t sent them a check because that`s what I`m in charge of.
BEHAR: So who do you think made all this up?
GALANTER: I think that when these things happen, when celebrities get in these types of trouble and these types of incidents happen, things get way blown out of proportion.
It`s like the rumors today about Obama going to India and $200 million a day. I mean it`s just -- you got to separate fact from fiction.
BEHAR: Oh, yes, you`re exactly right. They`re so similar. But porn star Capri Anderson --
GALANTER: That`s a fact.
BEHAR: That she exists and that she`s a porn star.
GALANTER: We actually have the tapes. So tapes don`t lie.
BEHAR: We`re looking at her in the shoot for "Penthouse" -- right -- in the background here somewhere. There she is.
Just so everybody knows who she is, what she did. She claims that she locked herself in his bathroom, that she was fearing for her life and that Charlie repeatedly punched the door. Now, what do you make of those allegations?
GALANTER: Who did she say that to? Those were just reports that were reported by tabloid Web sites. She never told that to the New York Police Department. When they arrived they asked her whether or now she was in any physical danger, verbal abuse, had ever been struck, she denied all that. That`s why nobody was arrested that evening.
BEHAR: Was she in the room?
GALANTER: Of course she was in the room.
BEHAR: So she was in the room. That you know.
GALANTER: She was definitely in the room.
(CROSSTALK)
GALANTER: Hotel security saw her in the room, the police saw her in the room. The police did a full, complete total investigation, she denied any wrongdoing on Charlie`s part and then the rumor mill just started.
BEHAR: Did he pay her to be there or was she from Craigslist, a date?
GALANTER: What`s Craigslist? I don`t get it.
BEHAR: Did he meet her and it was like a date?
GALANTER: No, there are pictures. They were all at dinner and Denise was there for a brief time at one of the better restaurants here in New York City. Then she went back to Charlie`s hotel.
BEHAR: But did he pay her, is my question?
GALANTER: I don`t know whether he paid her or didn`t pay her. We all know what she does. She`s a professional -- I`ll refer to her as paid talent for the evening. How is that?
BEHAR: Oh, really? She`s an actress. What was she doing, a scene?
GALANTER: Maybe. Joy, if she was, she was doing a scene with one of the best actors on the planet -- certainly boost to her career.
BEHAR: Ok. Now reportedly she`s suing your client, Charlie Sheen. Here is a clip of TMZ. What is her claim?
GALANTER: Well, she hasn`t sued yet. There haven`t been any papers that have been filed.
BEHAR: No?
GALANTER: And I`m sure if TMZ`s reporting it, it must be correct.
BEHAR: Well --
GALANTER: You know?
BEHAR: That`s not -- you`re here to dispel all rumors.
GALANTER: I am. I mean listen, let`s just talk about fact from fiction.
Here are the facts. The police come. Their job is to investigate crime. They interview everybody. Ok? They search the room, search Charlie, search her. She makes no allegations that any crime were committed. She makes no allegations that he was anything other --
BEHAR: To the police.
GALANTER: To the police and hotel security. There are like 15 people there. She never says a word about that.
There are these rumors that Charlie had cocaine all over his face.
BEHAR: Right.
GALANTER: Now, can you imagine law enforcement officers introducing themselves to Charlie Sheen and seeing coke on his face and not arresting him?
BEHAR: Does the name O.J. Simpson ring a bell?
GALANTER: He`s one of my clients.
BEHAR: Really? Oh, you have quite a list. But to say that the police are not impressed with celebrity is an understatement.
GALANTER: Yes, but Joy, listen, police officers when they see a crime occurring put people in handcuffs. There is no way that New York`s finest entered that hotel --
BEHAR: I would hope not.
GALANTER: Saw cocaine and let Charlie Sheen go. Additionally there`s no way they entered that room and saw $20,000 worth of damage and let him go. And additionally there`s no way they interviewed her. If she would have pointed a finger and then said he abused me in any way, he wouldn`t have gone to the hospital. He would have gone away in handcuffs.
You have to separate fact from fiction. What the tabloids say and what appears in "The Post" doesn`t make it real.
BEHAR: I`ll buy the thing about the police. But I`m not sure I buy the other thing about the porn star, that she wasn`t there being paid and that she was not in trouble in the room because he had a violent fit.
GALANTER: If she was in trouble in the room, why didn`t she report that to hotel security or the police?
BEHAR: Because she could be getting paid off by a very rich man?
GALANTER: In what, 30 seconds? I mean the story is that she ran into the hotel room, called hotel security, they were up there within a minute. So what do you think, in that minute and a half they made some kind of secret deal? The truth of the matter --
BEHAR: It`s possible.
GALANTER: The truth of the matter is that nothing occurred in that hotel room that was illegal, nothing. That`s what the police were there to investigate.
It wasn`t until three days later and she lawyered up -- that was a Freudian slip -- you know what, you had an encounter with Charlie Sheen ka- ching, ka-ching. That`s really the problem when you represent someone like Charlie Sheen.
BEHAR: So far Charlie Sheen is an angel -- let`s talk about -- according to you.
(CROSSTALK)
GALANTER: Certainly nothing happened that night. Listen, the one great thing about Charlie is everything he`s ever done bad he`s admitted that he`s had substance abuse problems. He admitted that he likes paid talent, so to say, but the police came --
BEHAR: Paid talent.
GALANTER: -- their job was to investigate crimes.
BEHAR: Yes.
GALANTER: They determined no crimes were committed.
BEHAR: I heard you. I heard that.
GALANTER: Three days later after she goes to some ambulance-chasing lawyer and says, you know, we can sue Charlie and we can get money if you say x, y and z. That`s horrible.
BEHAR: Ok. Well, you know a lot -- ok, but a lot of the tabloids have been reporting all this stuff. So if he`s telling the truth and nothing happened, why doesn`t he sue the tabloids or would he?
GALANTER: I don`t think that somebody who has got the celebrity status that Charlie has could ever sue a tabloid.
BEHAR: That`s not true. Carol Burnett --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Carol Burnett sued, I believe, the "Enquirer" because they said that she was drunk and she sued them and won. He could sue them if he`s --
GALANTER: Carol Burnett is not Charlie Sheen. Charlie Sheen is the most popular actor on the planet.
BEHAR: She was the most popular actress on television in her day.
GALANTER: He would have to prove actual forethought of malice and intent. And the way the tabloids do it, you can`t because they always cite confidential sources. And you know, it`s just an impossible scenario.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. I`m enjoying this. Sit there, we`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Charlie Sheen`s criminal defense lawyer Yale Galanter, who I will call if I ever get into any trouble because he obviously loves his clients.
Let`s talk about the situation with Brooke Mueller, they`re in the process of getting a divorce. He was married to Brooke. She alleges -- I believe it was alleged that he threatened her with a knife. Was there a knife in the room when he did that? What do you say to that?
GALANTER: There is no knife. That charge was reduced to a simple assault, which is not a battery, has nothing to do with a weapon or a knife.
BEHAR: There was no knife?
GALANTER: Charlie went to Aspen, pled guilty to the reduced charge of simple assault. Stood up in front of a judge and said, "Judge, I did it." He was later sentenced to probation --
BEHAR: That he did what?
GALANTER: That he had an encounter with his wife.
BEHAR: And tried to slit her throat.
GALANTER: That`s not what he pled guilty to. He pled guilty to a reduced charge of simple assault which was a misdemeanor. He was originally charged with a felony.
BEHAR: So, you say there was no knife to the throat.
GALANTER: There was definitely no knife to the throat.
BEHAR: Because she said that there was and then he said there wasn`t?
GALANTER: Who did she say that to?
BEHAR: That`s what we read.
GALANTER: I know. That`s the whole problem. When we read things, we want to believe them. But you and I both know being as close as we are to the media and you being in the media.
BEHAR: Being as close as we are to each other.
GALANTER: It doesn`t work that way. Because it`s written doesn`t make it true. The only two people who really know what happened between Brooke and Charlie on December 25th is Brooke and Charlie.
BEHAR: Ok. But you`re her attorney also.
GALANTER: I was.
BEHAR: You`re not anymore?
GALANTER: Well, I still represent her in certain things.
BEHAR: That`s a little bit of a conflict of interest there.
GALANTER: There`s no conflict.
BEHAR: They`re getting a divorce now. They both filed for divorce last week.
GALANTER: There`s no conflict. The day after this occurred Brooke made a public statement that she wanted all charges against Charlie dismissed. The aspen D.A.`s office, the police department refused to do that; they wanted to put the case through the system. Charlie, obviously, wanted the charges dismissed. So there`s no conflict. They had the same interests.
BEHAR: According to what you`re telling me in these interviews, this guy has done nothing. Now, these are the things --
GALANTER: I didn`t say he did nothing. He stood in an Aspen courtroom and pled guilty. I mean he`s admitted to having substance abuse problems in the past, and he`s gotten help for them.
BEHAR: He accidentally shot his fiancee Kelly Preston in the leg. Did that happen?
GALANTER: Wait a second, he testified during the Heidi Fleiss trial that he had used paid talent before.
BEHAR: Paid talent, I love how you put that. It`s like "American Idol".
GALANTER: This is not -- listen, Charlie is one of the guys who`s actually never hidden anything that he`s done.
BEHAR: His ex-girlfriend claims he threatened to kill her. He OD`d after injecting cocaine. His ex-wife Denise Richards claims drug abuse and threats violence and he allegedly held a knife to his wife, Mueller`s throat last December, which you now say is not true.
GALANTER: Denise --
BEHAR: What about -- Denise, the claims of drug abuse and threats of violence.
GALANTER: Listen, I`m honored because Denise sat in this chair.
BEHAR: She did.
GALANTER: I think last week.
BEHAR: She did. She`s a lovely person.
GALANTER: And you interviewed her --
BEHAR: I did.
GALANTER: She`s a lovely person.
BEHAR: Yes.
GALANTER: Did she not have wonderful things to say about Charlie?
BEHAR: Why do I have the feeling that somebody`s getting paid off.
GALANTER: I just want to know. Listen, joy --
BEHAR: All of a sudden everything`s been white-washed. He`s on a cloud, he`s so innocent. Look at that face, will you look at it behind you, so innocent.
GALANTER: Listen, you`re an excellent interviewer.
BEHAR: Thank you.
GALANTER: You had the source here. She had nothing but good things to say about her ex-husband, Charlie Sheen. They were here together for a family weekend.
BEHAR: I know. It`s a beautiful story.
GALANTER: It`s a beautiful story.
BEHAR: Thanks, Yale, very much.
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Conan O`Brien makes his return to late night.
And fashion icon, Donatella Versace tells joy how she feels about being spoofed by "Saturday Night Live." Now back to Joy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: MSNBC anchor, Keith Olbermann was suspended indefinitely for violating network policy by contributing to political campaigns. It turns out the indefinite suspension will last about as long as Carl Paladino`s political career. He`s expected back on the air tomorrow. So, is MSNBC too lenient?
Here to talk with me about this and other stories are the star of Broadway musical "Rock of Ages, " Dee Snider, in touch weekly senior editor, Amy Palmer, and illusionist Penn Jillette. Welcome, guys, Penn, let me start with you. Olbermann`s political leanings are known to everyone. I mean, so, why bother suspending the guy?
PENN JILLETTE, ILLUSIONIST: Well, he never voted. Didn`t he say that on "The View"? Was it on the "The View" that he said he never voted? And the reason he never voted was because he was a news person, and he was a journalist, and now, he`s saying that he`s not -- he was a sports person for what, 20 years, and he never voted during any of that.
And so, I don`t know which he`s saying. I mean, he claims he`s not voting because he`s a journalist, and yet, he`s donating money because he`s not a journalist. I mean, which way is going to be?
DEE SNIDER, STAR OF "ROCK OF AGES" ON BROADWAY: are there any true journalists out there any more?
BEHAR: The Walter Cronkite`s --
SNIDER: Yes, the Walter Cronkite`s
AMY PALMER, SR. EDITOR IN TOUCH WEEKLY: I think that`s what it is. It`s the blending of the journalist versus the TV host. And how do we have restrictions, because with the internet and technology, it`s just going to get worse.
BEHAR: So blurred.
PALMER: It is. It`s blurred. We don`t know who is doing what, and this is a great example of that.
BEHAR: But you know, he was reportedly suspended because he would not apologize on the air. Now, reports are saying that he wouldn`t return to the air until his bosses apologized to him. That is a definition of chutzpah. I love it. You know?
PALMER: Yes, but he had 300,000 viewers who signed a petition saying bring him back to air within two days and MSNBC listened.
BEHAR: That`s a nice publicity gimmick, isn`t it? I mean, their ratings were in the toilet on Election Day compared to Fox. Believe me. I don`t think they`re so happy about that.
JILLETTE: What I want is I want the gig. You know, I do a show called "BS" that deals with subjects. I want to be a journalist so that I can tell politicians, I`d love to give you money, but you know I can`t. I love to host up in my house, but I can`t. I can (ph) give you a penny, I`m a journalist. I have opinions on things, I`m a journalist.
SNIDER: I think I was just going to say that.
(CROSSTALK)
SNIDER: I can`t give you money.
JILLETTE: But I walk down the street, homeless people, I`m sorry, I`m a journalist, I can`t give you money.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: That`s right --
JILLETTE: I can`t give you money. I`m a journalist.
BEHAR: What do you, guys, think about the fact that Fox Network has a lot -- a few people who are presidential hopefuls who are actual commentators on the air. Isn`t that kind of like paid advertising for a campaign? What about that?
PALMER: Yes, but I think fox is taking a different direction with that, and they`re saying that we`re paying them for their opinion, but they`re not really representing Fox. And I think that`s where the differentiation is if you can say that.
BEHAR: So, if I start decided to run for Congress, I could come on this show --
JILLETTE: I think you should.
BEHAR: I could come on this show every night and just talk about whether I believe and what I`m going to do for the country and that they would pay me for that.
PALMER: But that`s a great platform. And I think that`s what`s happening is the blurring of lines.
BEHAR: I don`t think they`re talking about --
JILLETTE: Isn`t the solution to bad speech more speech? Isn`t more people being allowed to say more things in that situation --
BEHAR: Fine, fine. So, fix campaign finance and let them do what they have to do.
JILLETTE: Why not just take it away and let anybody say anything they want?
BEHAR: Well, then -- OK. Then, you`re talking about a different playing field. That if you`re (ph) MSNBC, if I`m running, I can be doing over here, too.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Either everybody does it or nobody does it. It`s not --
JILLETTE: You can play by company, too. I mean, MSNBC can say this is the way we want to portray our journalist, and Fox News say this way we want to do it.
SNIDER: They`d be more than what`s (ph) right if they did that.
(CROSSTALK)
JILLETTE: Those rules were known. These rules aren`t secret.
PALMER: The people can also get on the internet and they can say whatever they want there, and they can put it on Twitter and Facebook. So, who`s controlling that, and I think --
JILLETTE: That`s what it should be.
BEHAR: Deregulation.
JILLETTE: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. After losing "The Tonight Show" a year ago, Conan O`Brien is back on the air this evening with his new show and not a moment too soon. You can only live on a $40 million severance check for so long. OK. Amy, who is going to be Conan`s first guest?
PALMER: OK. Well, it`s not Seth Rogen. It`s not Lea Michelle.
BEHAR: Jack Nicholson?
PALMER: It is not Jack Nicholson. It is Arlene Wagner, the creator of nutcracker museum from Washington State.
(CROSSTALK)
SNIDER: Go, co, go. It`s so boss.
PALMER: You know what it reminds me of? It reminds me the fact that he followed one person on Twitter and that woman now has 30,000 followers. And she`s just a random woman from the United States who is doing her thing and blogging about the fact that she just had lunch. So, I think that that really says that Conan is one of us, and I think that`s what his show`s going to be about.
BEHAR: He`s going head-to-head against Jon Stewart now, you know. So, do you have any advice for him on how to beat Stewart?
JILLETTE: I don`t understand the whole --
SNIDER: You don`t have Obama on.
(LAUGHTER)
JILLETTE: I don`t understand the whole competition thing. I don`t understand how -- I think it`s important to the networks. It`s important to the performers, but as far as people watching, I just want them all to do good shows. There`s really no competition left. You can time shift anything. And the idea that it`s some sort of sports team and go, team Coco, and Leno`s doing this, I don`t follow any of that.
I just want to hear good jokes and smart people. And Conan`s smart and Jon Stewart`s smart, and I don`t need them to have mud wrestling matches.
BEHAR: Well, you know, this Wednesday, we`re having, on my show, Bill Carter, who wrote this book about the whole O`Brien and Leno debacle that went on.
JILLETTE: Who cares?
BEHAR: We care over here, OK?
(LAUGHTER)
SNIDER: We`re trying to have a show here.
JILLETTE: I`m sorry. I`m just saying who cares that the fry cook is arguing at McDonald`s.
BEHAR: We want to hear the background of what really went on. I`m interested.
PALMER: Yes, people are interested.
JILLETTE: Not me.
BEHAR: Whose side were you on during that time?
SNIDER: I was on Conan`s.
BEHAR: People did take sides.
JILLETTE: OK, I didn`t.
(CROSSTALK)
JILLETTE: But they`re working on it and that`s what matters.
SNIDER: But they were working off of one share. There are hundred one shares out there. So, what you`re saying is everybody could have a one share and be happy.
JILLETTE: People talk about shares. If you`re not an executive doing this stuff, just watch stuff that`s beautiful and enjoy it.
PALMER: Because everybody wants to be on television. Everyone wants to be --
JILLETTE: So be on television and be famous, but don`t keep score.
PALMER: But this is what the American public likes to see. They want to be team Coco, they want to be team Jay, and now, Jon Stewart is in the mix because it`s that same audience. It`s the young, energizing audience who goes on the social networks and talk about that.
BEHAR: And buy everything.
PALMER: Exactly.
BEHAR: Even though they`re unemployed. But you know --
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: It`s funny because I was basically wondering why Jay Leno was taking all the hits. He was. And now, Bill Carter`s book, if you read it, basically says that Conan was no angel in that event, and we`ll hear about that --
JILLETTE: "Anderson Cooper 360" code word. Isn`t that what he said?
BEHAR: Yes, that`s right. OK. Let`s talk about Pam Anderson. She`s taken her anti-fur crusade to Israel where she`s encouraging lawmakers to ban the fur hats that Hasidic Jews wear. Good luck with that, Pam. It`s easier to pull Randy Quaid out of someone else`s house.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. Amy, what is going on here?
PALMER: OK. Well, Pamela Anderson -- I don`t know if you know as you saw her, but she was on "Dancing with the Stars" last season, and she was really --
BEHAR: In the Hollywood.
PALMER: In Hollywood. And she was really sexy. I don`t know if you, guys, saw.
BEHAR: She was very good.
PALMER: Isn`t she? She was great.
BEHAR: Yes.
PALMER: Now, she`s in Israel for the Israeli "Dancing with the Stars" for guest appearance.
BEHAR: Right.
PALMER: So, she just thought that it would be a good time to meet with Israeli lawmakers to discuss this hat Hasidic Jews wear.
JILLETTE: You said everything is smart.
(CROSSTALK)
PALMER: Right. Exactly.
BEHAR: That`s where she went.
JILLETTE: I thought she went to the hat.
BEHAR: She went to the hat.
SNIDER: Well, at least, now, she knows how to say (INAUDIBLE) in Hebrew.
PALMER: But, listen, we`re talking about it. And that`s what she does.
BEHAR: Do students (INAUDIBLE) in Hebrew, will she get like a gimlet (ph).
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. Do you think Pam should maybe, you know, think about as he says, think about her battles and pick which one is really relevant before she goes after the Hassid? They only have a trim. OK. It`s no big deal.
JILLETTE: I`m so happy -- I`m very willing to argue with her about the PETA (ph) stuff when it comes to drug research and diabetics and the insulin that are made from animals and animal testing.
BEHAR: Right.
JILLETTE: That`s a battle I`ll take. But I`m not willing to take the other side of the hat back. I won`t get (ph) either side of that. I mean, fur animal rights stuff is crazy and wrong.
BEHAR: What`s wrong with it?
JILLETTE: I think because my dad died of diabetes --
BEHAR: Yes. And that`s Pamela Anderson`s fault?
JILLETTE: PETA comes out against bovine insulin stuff.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Do they have to kill the cow?
JILLETTE: To save my dad, I would kill a cow.
BEHAR: Of course.
JILLETTE: Maybe you think that`s out of line, but I wouldn`t fight for a hat.
BEHAR: But I don`t believe that they should test animals for make-up.
SNIDER: Actually, you know what, a lot of people agree with PETA when they take this, they go too far at a time, and then everybody pulls back from them. They`re too extremist.
PALMER: But if you see videos of these animals being tested and being abused, it`s awful. And I think that she`s using her celebrity for a cause that she believes in. And it`s something that she does have a lot of influence over. And we talk about it. She puts in it the press. So many of her advertisements and videos have been actually banned. Canada banned a video that she was in because it was too racy. So, we`re talking about it and that`s really the point. It`s the dialogue.
JILLETTE: Yes, and the dialogue is important because animal testing does save lives. And I would kill every chimpanzee on the planet with my bare hands to save one junkie with AIDS.
BEHAR: All right. That`s a little extreme.
JILLETTE: I don`t think you put animals --
BEHAR: I`m calling Dian Fossey right now.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Whatever.
JILLETTE: They`re primates.
JILLETTE: I`m just saying. OK. They`re primates.
BEHAR: We have 98 percent of our DNA primates.
JILLETTE: And we are going to get it back. Those rat bastards stealing our DNA. We`ll get it back. The chimp thieves.
BEHAR: What were you going to say before we go?
SNIDER: I was going to say Pam believes in a cause. She has a fake fur merkin that she -- (LAUGHTER)
SNIDER: She uses (ph) in cold weather.
JILLETTE: How much money do you get for using the word merkin on TV? Playing all their best (ph) with the guy of "rock of Ages." I`ll say merkin on Joy Behar.
SNIDER: You can sell those at the front door.
BEHAR: Thank you, guys, very much. And catch Dee Snider in "Rock of Ages" on Broadway now through December 24th. And you can see the lovely Penn Jillette in Penn & Teller at the Rio in Las Vegas now celebrating their tenth anniversary. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Donatella Versace is simply put a fashion icon. As creative director of the Versace Group, she somehow makes running a multimillion dollar empire look glamorous. I`m happy to welcome to my show the fabulous, Donatella Versace. I`m so happy to have you here, Donatella.
DONATELLA VERSACE, CREATIVE DIRECTOR, VERSACE GROUP: I`m so happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
BEHAR: Yes. And we saw your -- well, I saw some of your designs the other day on "The View." It was just incredible stuff. I mean, just beautiful.
VERSACE: Thank you.
BEHAR: And so original you are. You know, we met, actually, last year -- or this year rather at the correspondence dinner.
VERSACE: Yes, in Washington. I remember that.
BEHAR: What do you think of the Obama`s -- oh, there`s a picture of us. What do you think of the Obama`s style?
VERSACE: I think of the first lady. She`s revolutionary in America, because no one before her as first lady start to dress like her, young designer, daring, with the different kind of fresh on (ph) and she has a lot of style.
BEHAR: She has style.
VERSACE: A lot of style.
BEHAR: Not all the first ladies have such style.
VERSACE: Now, that`s what I`m saying. She was the first one.
BEHAR: She was. Well, Jackie Kennedy.
VERSACE: Yes, after her.
BEHAR: After her.
VERSACE: We always talk after her.
BEHAR: Who knew (ph) what she wore, an apron over a sweater. So, we found out today that your family and my family come from the same part of Italy.
(CROSSTALK)
VERSACE: (INAUDIBLE).
BEHAR: Yes. Reggio is not Florence. You know, there`s not a lot of rich people living in Reggio as far as I can tell. Maybe, I don`t know what they`re doing now, but the old days.
VERSACE: Yes, what (INAUDIBLE) rich people or very poor?
BEHAR: What was your family? Were they rich or poor?
VERSACE: Well, you know, so-so.
BEHAR: So-so.
VERSACE: Yes.
BEHAR: Because your mother was a seam stress.
VERSACE: Yes.
BEHAR: Yes. But she ran a business?
VERSACE: She ran a business. She started, you know, she opened shops, boutiques, where she was sending (INAUDIBLE) designers all over the world. The region of Calabria.
BEHAR: It was a humble beginning, really. Look at the way the Versace Empire has blossomed.
VERSACE: Yes. We never even think about something like this could happen. At all.
BEHAR: Right. Right. You never dreamed of it in Reggio.
VERSACE: No. Me, or Gianni, no one.
BEHAR: No. And Gianni, he founded Versace in 1978. You started out basically as his muse. You were not a partner at that time, right? He got his inspiration from you.
VERSACE: I was at University in Florence when Gianni started. And he started to work in Florence as well. So, at the weekend, we used to meet each other because my mother was very strict. She wanted me to finish studying.
BEHAR: Right.
VERSACE: But we still meet each other and talk about fashion with each other and then we start to work together. That was a lot of fun.
BEHAR: It was a lot of fun. I`m sure you miss him terribly.
VERSACE: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: He was very, very sadly gunned down by this crazy spree killer, Andrew Cunanan.
VERSACE: It was unbelievable and horrible.
BEHAR: That must have just been so awful for you.
VERSACE: I talked to him 15 minutes before. With all these recent years, I could not believe.
BEHAR: It`s so shocking. Something so violent like that to happen to such a lovely person, too.
VERSACE: Yes. He was a gentleman.
BEHAR: Let`s take a look at some of the celebrities who wear your clothes, OK? We`re showing a picture of -- in 1994 Elizabeth Hurley`s safety pin dress is a famous one of your outfits. Look at that. That was very original.
VERSACE: When Hugh Grant asked Gianni if he could borrow a dress for his girlfriend, which she was unknown at that time.
BEHAR: She was unknown?
VERSACE: That`s the case of a dress making the girl because after she wore the dress, she was very well known all over the world. That was Gianni`s dress, not mine.
BEHAR: Gianni`s dress.
VERSACE: Yes.
BEHAR: Is this your dress, in 2000, J. Lo`s green cut down to there, the Grammy dress.
VERSACE: Yes.
BEHAR: That was yours or Gianni`s?
VERSACE: Yes, that was mine.
BEHAR: This is yours. Oh, look at that. Isn`t she cute?
VERSACE: More or less, the same thing. The next day, she was all over the press for this dress. Everybody talk about this dress. It wasn`t stop talking about this dress.
BEHAR: They should wear some more audacious clothing like that at the Oscars. It makes more interesting thing to watch, instead of the usual -- sort of very, very, they`re going for something safe.
VERSACE: An actress or a rock star (ph) like needs to be daring a little bit.
BEHAR: Yes. Did you like the way Cher dresses?
VERSACE: Yes, she used to dress so much.
BEHAR: She used to have some out there styles. And let`s just take a look at some of the recent collection of yours. Well, look at that. These are the runaway models in the tight clothing. Let`s see those. The clothes are obviously beautiful, but you know, the average size woman couldn`t wear them.
VERSACE: No. It`s not true at all.
BEHAR: That`s not true?
VERSACE: No. Because the business on the sides (INAUDIBLE)
BEHAR: You wouldn`t have a business if you could only fit in to skinny girls.
VERSACE: Of course, because real woman is another story. I know very well that. So, the runway style, this is my style. My style is glamorous, sensual, sophisticated and sexy. But then, after this, I have a complete collection similar to this but for real women.
BEHAR: I see. OK. We`re going to have more with Donatella Versace when we come back so stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED KID: Trick or treat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Great. Here you go. I have candy cigarettes for you. Here`s the candy and here`s the cigarettes.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: My mom told me I`m not supposed to smoke.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, tell your mom they`re Capri lights. Now get out!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: I`m back with the glamorous, Donatella Versace. You know, they make fun of me, too, over there. I think it`s fun, do you?
VERSACE: I think it`s fun. It`s hilarious. And I think there was a moment when the show became popular, too. I talked to Maya one time.
BEHAR: Maya Rudolph.
VERSACE: Yes. Just to give her some tips. To impersonate me, you know, do it better.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. You know, it`s interesting, the fashion industry attracts a lot of gay men.
VERSACE: Yes.
BEHAR: The women are not necessarily gay, but the men seem to be. I mean, I can give you names, Mark Jacobs, Tom Ford, Valentino, Isaac Mizrahi. What is it about the industry that gay men are attracted to?
VERSACE: Well, you have to be very sensitive, very feminine to do women clothes. But I think women designers are much better in a way because they know women`s body, they know women`s insecurity. So, we don`t want to show hips. We want to look tighter in the waist. (INAUDIBLE)
BEHAR: I see. Do you think that the Italian designers are better than the French designers?
(LAUGHTER)
VERSACE: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. There you go. Let me see. Now, how about the expense of the clothing. Your stuff is pretty expensive, right?
VERSACE: Well, it`s not very cheap, but with this recession, we have to put things in order and look at the prices. Do some changes in order to make the clothes look -- cost less.
BEHAR: Yes. A lot of designers have two lines, I notice. They`ll have like DK will have one line and then she has DKNY, which is much more affordable. Do you have that?
VERSACE: Yes.
BEHAR: You do?
VERSACE: Of course.
BEHAR: OK. Well, that`s good. What do you think of Lady Gaga and her style?
VERSACE: Which one?
BEHAR: Which one? I don`t know. The way she dresses in general.
VERSACE: I think she likes exaggeration. That expresses her persona. I think she`s very talented. She has a fantastic voice. I listened to her.
BEHAR: She`s talented.
VERSACE: Yes, very talented.
BEHAR: Indeed.
VERSACE: All the rock stars, they want to be fashion designers now.
BEHAR: I know. A lot of them do.
VERSACE: Yes. I hope they should stick (ph) to singing.
BEHAR: Yes, I know. I don`t think they can compete with someone like you. Your stuff is incredible. You know, you were just named one of glamorous women of the year for your support of the children`s charity in China.
VERSACE: Yes.
BEHAR: The Versace One Foundation. Tell me a little about that before we go.
VERSACE: After the earthquake (INAUDIBLE) in China, I met Jet Li --
BEHAR: Jet Li, ah-huh.
VERSACE: A famous actor, and we did together this foundation, the Versace One Foundation, to help the children with no parents, with no house, nothing. And we built two centers. We built a center where the kids sleep, eat and learn. And we provide doctors psychologists to help them overcome all this disorder stress (ph).
BEHAR: Well, congratulations on that.
VERSACE: Thank you.
BEHAR: That`s lovely.
VERSACE: thank you very much.
BEHAR: And thank you for doing the show.
VERSACE: Thank you for inviting me.
BEHAR: OK. And thank you for watching. Goodnight, everybody.
END
