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Nancy Grace
Cops Bring Medical Examiner to Zahra Search Site
Aired November 10, 2010 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, North Carolina. A 10-year-old little girl snatched from her own bedroom in the dark of night. The little girl, Zahra, completely dependent on two hearing aids, can only walk with a prosthetic leg after losing her left leg to bone cancer, vanishes into thin air, her bedroom empty, prosthetic leg missing, hearing aids left behind. Last person to see little Zahra alive, stepmommy. Zahra`s prosthetic leg found discarded in brush. A bone believed to be Zahra`s discovered. Police swarm the family home to start the digging, ripping out Zahra`s bedroom walls.
Stepmommy writes letters behind jailhouse walls saying what Adam Baker did to his little girl was, quote, "horrifying," obsessed with pagan worship, vampires, the dark arts, complains about photos of herself on TV, claiming they`re unflattering, admits she wants to be a TV star and whines about missing her waterbed.
Then stepmommy changes the story, says she finds Zahra dead, but now claims Zahra was actually sick for weeks. But she never took her to the doctor, claims she was afraid to call 911. This as we learn police break apart the bathroom. Did they find blood evidence? In the last 24 hours, police seizing what we believe to be bones at a remote animal carcass dump site, the same community where stepmommy once lived. Cops canvas the area, asking residents if their pets have brought home strange bones, human bones.
Bombshell tonight. As we go to air, police find more secret evidence in Zahra`s disappearance, confirming they have definite persons of interest. Right now, cops back at a creek, a creek near another of stepmommy`s rental homes. Cops bring a medical examiner to the scene, blocking off the site, then declaring a no-fly zone while dive teams scour the murky waters of Gunpowder Creek and search teams using terrain navigation comb riverbanks. Tonight, the late night search site known as a bone-infested dump site, full of animal carcasses. Were Zahra`s remains dumped in the muddy creek bed? Tonight, what happened to 10-year-old Zahra?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police and FBI.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Searching.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a very important search.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New search.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Searchers walking through the murky cold water in protective clothing.
GRACE: They are looking for the rest of Zahra`s bones.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bones.
GRACE: A bone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Recovered a bone.
GRACE: A child`s bone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators found a bone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Fifteen to twenty cop cars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looking for more evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Outside of the gated area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hoping to find evidence in the Zahra Baker case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Key piece of evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Find evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Key piece of evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where did they discard her body?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) the truth because we don`t know the truth, either.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Ninety-eight percent of the media stuff is lies."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She wants to tell her story, she said.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you miss your stepdaughter?
EMILY DIETRICH, ZAHRA`S MOTHER: I have no words for that woman. I have to do this for her. And I have to find justice for her!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, cops race to upscale suburbs after a frantic 911 call from a husband claiming he`s poisoned. In a bizarre twist, the deadly cocktail of sweet (ph) aid (ph), Ambien, 18 sleeping pills, whipped up by his own wife, a 2nd grade school teacher. But instead of a jail cell tonight, she`s back at home and at elementary school teaching 2nd graders. Hello! Why?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A teacher charged with felony assault.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After poisoning her husband.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Elementary school teacher Rebecca Allwine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arrested and charged.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For slipping the drug Ambien into her husband`s drink.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-eight pills she put in that drink!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: School district officials allow her to stay in the classroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s ludicrous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is. It`s insane.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They said because they consider Rebecca Allwine a very good teacher.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m really shocked.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rebecca Allwine even pled guilty to disorderly conduct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She probably should (INAUDIBLE) out of there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Parents are outraged.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rebecca Allwine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The teacher charged with felony assault in the classroom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. As we go to air, police finding more secret evidence in Zahra`s disappearance, confirming they have definite persons of interest. Right now, cops at a creek near another of stepmommy`s rental homes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The murder of this child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "They keep calling my lawyers and wanting an interview with me."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On the scene.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Using paddles to feel their way, trying to find evidence in Zahra`s disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re claiming it`s a crime scene.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have investigators found Zahra Baker?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "There are so many missing kids, but Zahra isn`t missing."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s very clear that this child has been murdered.
GRACE: Zahra dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The child is dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They have said she`s dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No sign of her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 10-year-old girl in North Carolina.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zahra Baker.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They are looking for a body.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had nothing to do with this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The homicide.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think happened to Zahra?
ADAM BAKER, ZAHRA`S FATHER: I don`t know.
DIETRICH: She was already gone when I found her. She found me to tell her story and to find her and put her to rest!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." A new search yet again near one of stepmommy`s rental homes. But in this one, Jean, they`ve really shut a lot of the media down. They have cordoned off the area far on either side and established a no-fly zone. They aren`t speaking to anybody that goes by. They have a frantic tone. They go, I can`t talk about it! I can`t talk about it! And keep on going. They`ve got a medical examiner on site right now, as we go to air, Jean.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Nancy, this homicide investigation is getting very, very intensive. The search area -- it is a creek. It is off the Dudley Shoals Road area. We`ve heard that name, Dudley Shoals Road. That is the area that Elisa Baker took authorities to several weeks ago. It`s also the area that she lived within a mile of three years ago.
But Nancy, they say on the ground that something significant has been found as they have searched that creek and that land area. And as you just said, two significant factors. Helicopters with news cameras cannot fly over the area. And number two, the medical examiner, Nancy, has gone to the scene.
GRACE: You know, Jean Casarez, last night, when we believed a bone had been found -- we don`t know if anything had been found or not found. We know that a lot of evidence was taken away and sent for investigation, sent for analysis. We don`t know what it is. But I do know that tonight, just a couple of hours ago, the medical examiner was called to this site. Jean, where do we believe the stepmother lived in relation to tonight`s search?
CASAREZ: Very close, less than a mile away, extremely close three years ago. And Nancy, this particular area also is where animal carcasses traditionally have been dumped in the area. Bones are there, animal bones. Prosecutors would say that a human bone there, someone would intentionally put it there to just get amongst all the animal bones.
GRACE: Right now, joining us out of Pensacola, Florida, Brad Dennis. He`s the director of search operations with Klaas Kids Foundation. Brad Dennis, when you bring the medical examiner to stand by throughout the search, a night search, that means a lot.
BRAD DENNIS, DIR. OF SEARCH OPERATIONS FOR KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Nancy, absolutely. I think this entire search effort means a lot. I mean, they`re -- they`ve brought all of their searchers in to really tight spacing. They have a closed grid search. They`re using GPS technology to map every aspect of their search right now. And more importantly, they brought the ME there to immediately make field identification of any remains that they`re finding.
GRACE: Also with us, from Miami, Michael Gast. He is the founder and trainer at the National Academy of Police Diving. Michael Gast, a muddy creek, a muddy river like this is very, very difficult because when you go under -- see this water is murky brown? It`s very, very hard to find anything.
MICHAEL GAST, NATIONAL ACADEMY OF POLICE DIVING: Yes, it is. It`s very hard. And you have to have a good systematic search to be able to accomplish anything.
GRACE: Michael Gast, I`ve done many night dives myself, and it`s very, very hard to see anything. Do you advise them not to search at night underwater? It`s very difficult, from my experience.
GAST: Well, it`s more difficult at night than it is in the daytime. The main thing is the safety factor for the divers. But good trained divers can accomplish the same thing day or night. But if you want to be more thorough in your search and your finality of it, the daytime would be more appropriate.
GRACE: Well, Michael Gast, founder, trainer, National Academy of Police Diving, a night search, a night dive -- you can hardly see. You can hardly see at all. And combined with the murky and muddy nature of this water, something could be right in front of them and they don`t see it, or they could step on it. Remember, the bottom of this is extremely muddy, and anything that`s there they could definitely compress down into the mud by stepping on it.
GAST: That`s correct. But if they`re properly trained, they can get down into the water, not have to step on it. The other aspect of it would be most of the time, you`re in a running water, like a river or a creek, you`re not going to have any visibility anyway. So again, the best means would be to get down on your belly and search with scuba gear.
GRACE: You know what, Michael? You`re absolutely correct. I had completely discounted the fact this running water -- it`s going to be very difficult to find anything in running water.
With me right now at the search site in Granite Falls, North Carolina, the editor of "The Hickory Daily Record," John Miller, is joining us. John, what do you know?
JOHN MILLER, "HICKORY DAILY RECORD": Well, one of the things we know, Nancy, that we are about 300 yards from the search site right now. But I do want to make sure that everybody understands that -- two things. Right now, today, they did not actually have scuba gear. They had water teams that were examining the water, examining the rocks. They were wading through the water from a few inches to five feet deep. But they only had protective gear on, but they did not have scuba gear.
The other thing is -- the other thing is that...
GRACE: OK, I think I lost John Miller. We`ll go right back to him as soon as we can get our satellite up.
Unleash the lawyers. Kelly Saindon, family law attorney, New York, Remi Spencer, defense attorney, New York, Richard Herman, defense attorney joining us from Vegas tonight. It`s an all-out search, Richard Herman. What do you think?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first, Nancy, I would pay money to see you in your night dive outfit. That`s got to be something!
(LAUGHTER)
HERMAN: Let me tell you, this is...
GRACE: Richard?
HERMAN: Yes? Yes?
(LAUGHTER)
GRACE: Put him up. Put him up!
HERMAN: No, don`t put me up!
GRACE: Richard...
HERMAN: Don`t do it! Yes?
GRACE: Zahra is 10 years old.
HERMAN: I know.
GRACE: Her prosthetic leg has been found.
HERMAN: Yes.
GRACE: They`re out working, police are working right now, while you`re yukking it up.
HERMAN: I`m not yukking.
GRACE: They`re trying to find Zahra`s bones. Now, don`t you think this would be a good time for either Adam or Elisa Baker to break down and tell the truth?
HERMAN: Well, if they had anything to do with this, Nancy. I think Elisa Baker is psychotic. I think she`s nuts. I don`t think she has any credibility in anything she says. So she`s out. Was there luminol findings at the house? That`s what I want to know.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This cousin has not turned these letters over to police. But what we did find out from the jail is that the jail is now making copies of all of the letters from Elisa Baker.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our first concern is that Zahra`s body will be found soon, since she is believed to be deceased, and that all of the truth will come out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you think happened to Zahra?
BAKER: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re not looking for a body.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say they are searching a half-mile stretch of the creek.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Zahra isn`t missing. The cops know where she is and what he has done."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no desperation in his voice.
BAKER: My name is Adam Baker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no urgency.
BAKER: It appears they may have taken my daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "We really didn`t kill her, but what he did after the fact is kind of horrifying."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is blaming Adam Baker.
GRACE: The child was actually sick for weeks on end?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really starting to paint a very bleak picture of the situation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I just wonder, if Zahra hadn`t survived cancer and been from Australia, if it would be truly like this."
DIETRICH: I pray to God that she had enough of me in her to never do that, to call that woman her mother!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Thanks, Mom, for showing up a day late, a dollar short! Look, I don`t mean to be cruel about it, but where was the biological mother when the little girl needed her the most? Where was she? Where was anybody? DFACS, Department of Family and Child Services, had been called multiple times. Police were called so many times, they were getting tired of answering the calls. But yet the black eyes, the abuse continued. And tonight, we`re looking for the rest of little Zahra`s body.
Straight back out to John Miller, editor of "The Hickory Daily Record." Let me just try to get the who, what, where, why and when from you. Who`s there? Why are they there? When did they get there? Where are you? Just give me that.
MILLER: OK. Right now, we`re about 300 yards from the creek where they`ve been searching most of the day. They got here early this morning and they plan to be here again tomorrow. And their officers cordoned off some of the area so that no one can get through. We`ve got officers from the Hickory Police Department. We do have a medical examiner who is on site, and we have EMS people who are here making sure that the folks who are on the water team aren`t contaminated once they go in the water.
GRACE: John Miller, editor, "Hickory Daily Record," number four. Who, what, where, why? Why? Why do you believe they`re there?
MILLER: We believe they`re here because they visited this site about three weeks ago. They`re coming back, as they`ve systematically gone back to all the sites to do a much more detailed search. The last time they were here, they didn`t cut the brush. They didn`t use snow -- they didn`t use leaf blowers. They didn`t do a grid search. And they did not go into the water to the extent that they did this time. So we think that they`re back here for a more detailed search because they have either found some additional information or, as you said earlier, persons of interest who led them back here.
GRACE: OK. Ellie Jostad, chief editorial producer. Ellie, aren`t they getting these locations -- we believe they`re getting them from Elisa Baker?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, this is one of the locations that Zahra -- or sorry -- Elisa Baker led police to back on October 25th. We know she went to three different sites. This is one of them. We`ve also heard that Christie Road could be the other one. And the third is still undisclosed. And as we mentioned before, this area is only about a mile from where she lived about three years ago. So this might be an area she`s familiar with.
GRACE: To Dr. Caryn Stark, psychologist, joining us out of New York. I said at the get-go, just like tot mom, look at where she used to live. Look at all of her little hidey holes where she was growing up, where she`s lived in these various -- they go from one rental house to the next to the next apartment, blah, blah, blah, blah. Go look there. That`s where you need to look.
What is it, is it instinct that we always go back to the same spots, Caryn Stark? Why? It`s just like a dog.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: In a way, you`re right, Nancy. What -- people go to what feels most comfortable to them. It`s sort of -- it`s sort of like they`re migrating back to what they know. And there`s not much originality about murder, if you think about it.
GRACE: You know, maybe it`s instinctive, Caryn Stark. I mean, look at Scott Peterson. Where did he go? Where he went fishing to dump Lacy and Conner. When somebody breaks out of jail, where do they go? Back home to Mommy. Go look under the bedroom -- the bed in the bedroom. There they are. It`s so predictable! And that`s why cops are looking here. Agree or disagree, Caryn?
STARK: Completely agree, Nancy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIETRICH: Unless you understand the story, you don`t understand the pain.
BAKER: It appears they may have taken my daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your own daughter, your flesh and blood.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s ugly.
DIETRICH: He had no right to do any of it!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is so diabolical.
DIETRICH: To keep her from me!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something horrific happened.
DIETRICH: I never gave my baby up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This little girl has been murdered.
DIETRICH: I`m so angry she was taken away from me like this!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Michelle in Washington state. Hi, Michelle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Oh, this is intensifying. So maybe my question isn`t all that great. But with all of her medical history and knowing how many medical people she`s seen over, you know, a real short period of time, why aren`t they looking back to see who took her to those appointments, how was she being treated, you know, blah, blah, blah. Should get some clues from that.
GRACE: You know, Michelle, what`s interesting is you would think doctors would have noticed something. But unless you ask children specifically, they`re not just going to blurt out, Stepmommy beats me or Daddy beats me. What about it, Caryn Stark? What about Michelle`s question?
STARK: You`re right. They don`t. It`s an allegiance that they have to the people that they`re with. It`s called identifying with the aggressor. That`s the -- these are the people that take care of her. It`s too important. She`s not able to break that allegiance and be able to say what`s going on. And developmentally, I`m not sure that she even comprehends that she doesn`t deserve to be beaten.
GRACE: You know, Caryn, when you say things like that, they just roll off your tongue. And I know you`re right. It`s just so hard to hear it. It`s just so hard to hear it about this little girl.
STARK: Well, it`s painful, Nancy, because it`s hard to believe, isn`t it, that anyone would do that to a child, let alone to an adult, but to a child, somebody who`s handicapped and a survivor like that. But that`s what we cover here, the fact that there are people like this and you have to be wary of it.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez. Jean, what more can you tell me about the search that`s going on right now? And why did they go here?
CASAREZ: Well, this is an area that they`ve gone to before and Elisa Baker took them to. This is an area that was able to be confirmed that she took them to. This is an area that she lived within a mile two years ago. But now today, brand-new search. They`ve never searched the creek before. But Nancy, midday today is when they made that a no-fly zone. So the news helicopters that can zoom lens, they were stopped from doing that at noon today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Elisa, do you have anything to say?
GRACE: She wants to be in the media.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A lot of people don`t understand that treatment does tend to take other things away from you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s all me, me, me.
GRACE: I, I, I, I, I, I!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A new search is under way.
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: They`re getting closer and closer.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A new search area.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Search for 10-year-old Zahra Baker.
EMILY DIETRICH, ZAHRA BAKER`S MOTHER: You have no idea how it feels.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Canines, back hoes, search teams.
DIETRICH: It hurts enough that it`s numb.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The cops know where she is and what he has done.
CHIEF TOM ATKINS, HICKORY POLICE: We have not found her body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We really didn`t kill her, but what he did after the fact is kind of horrifying.
DIETRICH: I have no words for that woman.
KLAAS: They`re getting closer and closer.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Little Zahra Baker.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Searching for 10-year-old Zahra Baker.
KLAAS: Now the question is, where did they discard her body.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: All the searches they`ve done to solve the case.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police have checked out four properties.
GRACE: Searching overgrown area up a county back road.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They do not have are the body.
GRACE: Are we one step closer to finding the body of 10-year-old little Zahra?
DIETRICH: I don`t even know what to say with how hard it is. The whole thing is just breaking my heart. This is my way of partially making it real. So it`s hurting like crazy. It hurts enough that it`s numb. Like always had the hope one day that she`d come to find me. And it`s gone.
My children will never meet her. They`ll never get to see how much she fits with my family and never got to know any traits she had of me. Never got to tell her I was proud of her. It hurts.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Linda, Ohio. Hi, Linda. Do I have Linda with me?
Let`s try Maria in New Jersey. Hi, Maria.
MARIA, CALLER FROM NEW JERSEY: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
MARIA: I was just wondering if Zahra was so ill, might she have been receiving some financial help and they hid her -- they hid her body because they wanted to just keep collecting money that she had coming?
GRACE: You know what? That has happened many times in the past.
What about it, Jean Casarez?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Think about it. Because Adam Baker is an Australian citizen, Zahra Baker is an Australian citizen. They had come here. You`re talking about disability payments.
We don`t know anything about that at all. But the fact is, Adam Baker, who is still alive and out on bond, he is not a U.S. citizen.
GRACE: But you are saying they did get disability payments. So if they got them for themselves, certainly they are getting them for her.
CASAREZ: Do we have it confirmed that they are getting disability, that they were getting disability? I think it`s a good question of fact.
GRACE: The stepmommy may have been but Adam Baker was working. I don`t think he was.
Out to the lines, Linda, Ohio. Hi, Linda.
LINDA, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
LINDA: I`ve tried for two years to get through. Thanks for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for continuing to try.
LINDA: My question is -- yes, my question is, I --
GRACE: Yes?
LINDA: Is this -- am I on now?
GRACE: Yes, you are on and I`ve got about 30 seconds left so try to spit that question out.
LINDA: OK. Thank you. Thank you. Now, could Zahra`s father be sexually abusing Zahra and that`s why the stepmother is jealous and mean to the little girl and the little girl was going to tell somebody so they had to do something with her?
GRACE: You know what, that`s not that farfetched of scenario. We do not have evidence suggesting that. Zahra`s body has not been found. We know nothing about sexual abuse allegations, but that particular scenario has been played out in courts before.
Unleash the lawyers. Kelly Saindon, Remi Spencer, Richard Herman.
Remi Spencer, wouldn`t this be a good time for the mom and dad to tell what they know?
REMI SPENCER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If they know anything. That`s the really the point. Now whether they are guilty or innocent, they have a right to remain silent. They have a right to an attorney to protect that right.
GRACE: Could you put Remi Spencer up?
Remi, we`re all familiar with the Constitution and the Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. My question was, wouldn`t this be a great time to tell what they know?
SPENCER: If they know anything at all --
GRACE: If they know anything.
SPENCER: And we don`t know that.
GRACE: OK. Remi, your familiar with the fact that the mother, the stepmother, admits she wrote a phony million-dollar ransom note?
SPENCER: Yes, and we do know that this woman, Elisa Baker, has said one thing, then she said another thing. She`s then said something else contradictory. So it`s very hard to believe anything that she`s saying right now. She does not have to say anything.
We all know that, as you said. It`s our constitutional right. And --
GRACE: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
SPENCER: But if this case were to --
GRACE: I`ll just put it out there. We all have a right to remain silent. What I`m trying to get at -- help me out, Richard. Just try to take off that defense hat just for a moment. I mean, if I were their lawyer and I knew that they knew something, I would try to cut a deal as fast as I could for something. Anything.
Throw me a bone. Help me out here. That`s what I would be saying to the state. If I were their lawyer. Because they can prove a murder case right now. They found a prosthetic leg. We think they found another bone.
You know come on. She wrote the fake ransom note and the father was complicit because he called in a fake 911 call about his daughter.
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I don`t know, Nancy. If there`s culpability here, sure. Try to make a deal as quick as you can. What troubles me is that 911 call, that emergency call you played earlier in the show.
He was so stone cold on that one. You know, that was real troubling for me as a defense attorney to hear him like that. If your daughter is missing and you call that in, you`re going to be insane. So that`s --
GRACE: You are right, Richard.
HERMAN: It`s trouble.
GRACE: I am just telling you that they are going to prove this case. With or without daddy and stepmommy`s help, all right? They are going to. They`ve got the prosthetic leg. We think they`ve got a bone. They`ve got evidence from the home and mom -- stepmommy admitting she wrote a fake million-dollar ransom note.
What about it, Kelly Saindon?
KELLY SAINDON, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I agree with you, Nancy. They should cut a deal. They should tell what they know. Because if they actually do want this to be wrapped up, the stepmom saying, well, wait until you find out what happened. Tell what happened. Cut yourself a deal and find this girl`s remains. Put her to rest.
GRACE: I want to go out to Dr. Joshua Perper.
Dr. Perper, many of the wires have told us that divers are searching a creek. Others are using oars to find possible evidence. But how can they make sure? What they are looking for would be bones. How can they make sure they won`t damage those bones under this scenario?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Well, the only thing which they can do is be very careful when they walk through. Make sure that they don`t hear any kind of cracks under their feet, and just exercise as much caution.
There`s no absolute possibility to avoid damage to the bone, but once there would be a damage, they wouldn`t continue with the damage because hopefully there`s more than one bone in that particular location.
GRACE: And -- Dr. Joshua Perper with us, everyone. Chief medical examiner, Broward County. His latest book is "When Doctors Kill."
Doctor, you`re the chief medical examiner. What does it mean to you when you were called out to a search and you stand by all day on the scene at the police request?
PERPER: Well, it would mean that there`s a significant information which points that they might be human remains in this location. And therefore I would have the opportunity of examining them before they undergo additional deterioration.
And I can make all kind of determination, whether there is other evidence which can be linked to the body.
GRACE: Dr. Perper, I have had cases that I`ve personally prosecuted when we got DNA evidence turned around in three days. Three days. OK? Why are they acting like it`s taking them weeks to identify whether this bone that they have found is Zahra`s?
PERPER: Well, it depends how deteriorated is the bone marrow and perhaps they try perhaps to do it and they were not successful on one sample, so they try additional samples.
We don`t know what was the condition of the bone marrow in terms of the deterioration and the culpability of making the testing. But usually the test takes about seven days to 10 days and again, if they exercise special interest, they can do it in a shorter time.
GRACE: With us, Dr. Joshua Perper. I`m going to go to Bill Majeski, former NYPD, now Majeski Associates out of New York.
Bill, what should they be doing right now other than searching the area they are searching?
BILL MAJESKI, FMR. NYPD DETECTIVE, MAJESKI ASSOCIATES, INC.: I think the police are in a very good position right now. It`s an optimum time for them. They have one parent in jail. The other parent outside of jail. It`s a wonderful opportunity to start using one against the other.
GRACE: You think they`ve got a GPS locator? You think they`ve got a GPS locator stuck on daddy`s tail pipe?
MAJESKI: Oh, absolutely they do. They are monitoring his every movement. They`re monitoring his phone calls. They`re monitoring everything he does. And they`ll be -- essentially, they`re looking back into the past, let`s say, two months or three months of his activity. Where was he. What was he doing. Who was he with?
But again it`s an opportune time to use some very good interrogation techniques on both the stepmother and the father and use one against the other. I think that that is --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIETRICH: I was hoping we can lay her to rest with dignity that she deserves. Well, (INAUDIBLE) love and respect.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When you looked into Elisa`s eyes, you saw her face to face in jail. Did you believe what she was telling you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Which is what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That they didn`t kill Zahra.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A shocking discovery. Bone that could be related to the Zahra Baker case.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Your what`s on fire?
ELISA BAKER, ZAHRA BAKER`S STEP MOTHER: The backyard. We`ve got big mulch piles and wood piles.
CASAREZ: You see her state of mind.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My family has turned pretty much against me and everyone is telling so many lies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You missed your stepdaughter?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She has no remorse.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Have investigators found Zahra Baker?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are so many missing kids. But Zahra isn`t missing.
PERPER: It`s very clear that this child has been murdered.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The bone that may be related to the Zahra Baker investigation.
KLAAS: This is a little girl.
ZAHRA BAKER, MISSING 10-YEAR-OLD: I can actually hear more than without my hearing aid.
KLAAS: Who have been discarded --
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls for those of you just joining us. A search that is going into the night. A new search has just started after yesterday`s search. We now learn that police have cordoned off an extensive area and have also prohibited any traffic overhead.
They`ve got a no-fly zone set up. They are looking for Zahra`s bones. Not only that. They are down in a muddy creek looking for Zahra.
We are taking your calls, to Tammy in New York. Hi, Tammy.
TAMMY, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Nancy. Such an honor and a privilege to share my thoughts with you and your panel.
GRACE: No. Actually, the privilege is ours. What is your question, dear?
TAMMY: I have two concerns about this. The day that Zahra and her stepmother were in the furniture store, did they ever say if she made any purchase, any inquiries? Because to me, that could lead to premeditation. Due to her bed being missing.
GRACE: Excellent question. Excellent question. Hold on. Do you have another question, Tammy?
TAMMY: The second issue, the 911 call.
GRACE: Uh-huh.
TAMMY: The father did not bring up her being hearing impaired. And that would be a very important factor if someone were searching for this child.
GRACE: You know, Tammy, you should be a detective because I listened to the 911 call 50 times and I didn`t think of that. And you are right.
TAMMY: She wouldn`t be found.
GRACE: For a child that was hearing impaired and her hearing aids were left behind.
OK. To you, Jean Casarez. First of all, I don`t recall that they bought anything at the furniture store.
CASAREZ: You know I remember listening to that interview when she came on your show. You spoke with the owner of the furniture store. They looked around. Zahra was looking at cartoons on a television. She was very friendly. We heard of no purchases whatsoever, though.
GRACE: And about the hearing aids. He did not mention it, did he?
CASAREZ: No.
GRACE: I don`t recall the father mentioning anything about her--
CASAREZ: No. And that`s a striking thing. Her hearing aids were left behind. Her prosthetic leg was gone. But the hearing aids were right there in her bedroom.
GRACE: Oh, the poor little thing died. Didn`t -- couldn`t hear a thing. Probably didn`t have her prosthetic leg on when she was murdered. Just completely helpless. Completely helpless.
Lucretia, Illinois. Hi, dear.
LUCRETIA, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi. Thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?
LUCRETIA: Yes, my question is, since the stepmom is blaming Adam Baker that he had a lot to do with it, couldn`t they use this as an opportune time to give him -- or ask him if he would be willing to take a lie detector test just to get information from him?
If he would be willing, as an idea just to get him talking and if not, maybe just use it to urge something to happen.
GRACE: Good question. Unleash the lawyers. Kelly Saindon, New York. Remi Spencer, New York. Richard Herman, Las Vegas.
Richard, they can ask all they want to. And I agree with Lucretia. Maybe they can jog something loose. But you know he`s got a lawyer now. He`s all lawyered up. He`s going to say no to a polygraph.
HERMAN: Yes. A target or a person of interest, whatever you want to call him. He ain`t no way taking a polygraph in this case.
GRACE: No way. And now we are hearing -- to Kelly -- that the mother and the father have both clammed up. They are not talking to police.
SAINDON: Absolutely. Because they now realize the severity and that they`re getting caught. They`re getting trapped up in their lies. Adam thought he was slick on the 911 call. And it`s obvious that just the discrepancy that was pointed out by the woman that just called in.
That he didn`t do a good job. He wasn`t credible. The defense attorney before me said that`s his worst nightmare of a client when you have that 911 cold call. And the mom -- the stepmom, excuse me, in there running off her big mouth, writing these letters. She`s digging a hole and nobody cares. No one wants her to be a star. No one is sympathetic to her plight.
GRACE: And what about it, Remi Spencer? I mean her lawyer has clearly told her stop writing letters. She`s written that in some of her letters.
SPENCER: Well, I think we all know, those of us who practice criminal defense, that we can tell our clients one thing, doesn`t mean that they`ll do another -- they`ll do it.
GRACE: Praise the lord.
SPENCER: Of course -- of course, they are not talking now. If their lawyers are giving them that advice, it`s good advice because from a defensive attorney`s perspective, our job is to protect our clients.
And right now, because both of the Bakers are looked as suspects and they`re going to be charged, or they are charged --
GRACE: We are quickly switching gears. We are still taking your calls. But a second grade schoolteacher has been discovered poisoning her husband. She`s not in jail. In fact, she`s back in the classroom?
Someone, explain.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Cops say the couple had been drinking and arguing when she saw his Ambien and Melatonin on the bedside table. She dumped the pills in the drink.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He survived but she was charged then later indicted for felony assault.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Elementary teacher gets to keep her job.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Rebecca Allwine.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Parents are outraged, saying they weren`t even notified about the incident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that needed to be changed, like, ASAP.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Coweta County let Allwine stay in the classroom.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Eric Jens, news director, WRGA Radio.
Eric, she`s back in the classroom with second graders? How can she not be a threat?
ERIC JENS, NEWS DIRECTOR, WRGA RADIO: Good evening, Nancy. Thank you. There`s basically two schools of thought here. We`ve got one group of parents and others who say there are two charges of disorderly conduct that she`s pled guilty to both misdemeanors. It has not impacted her role as a teacher in the classroom.
The school board saw fit that she should keep teaching, let`s let her keep teaching. But however, on the other hand, there`s parents who say hey, we weren`t even notified that here`s a teacher teaching our second grade students who has been charged, arrested and indicted on felony charges of aggravated assault and battery, and we weren`t even told about it.
GRACE: You know what? That`s like saying Hannibal Lecter was a great chef. Or Jeffrey Dahmer handed out candy on Halloween. It`s crazy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The Professional Standard Commission told me that (INAUDIBLE) did not breach their code of ethics after poisoning her husband.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Rebecca Allwine was arrested and charged, even pled guilty to disorderly conduct.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An elementary school teacher.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m really shocked.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An elementary teacher charged with felony assault.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s insane.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Some parents think Allwine should have been removed from a classroom until the matter was resolved. And they think they should have been told about it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s ludicrous.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls.
Eric Jens, how can it not be a problem that she`s indicted for putting over 18 sleeping pills into her husband`s cocktail? He finds them after he drinks some, calls the ambulance, calls 911.
She`s indicted. But then I guess because he didn`t want to testify against her, they pleaded it down to a misdemeanor. I don`t care.
JENS: Yes. If you look it at the specifics in this case, it`s basically falling to the Coweta County School Board`s jurisdiction as to what to do, if anything, in this case. And since it did not reach the level of any immediate action or specific action be taken, nothing has to this point.
GRACE: What about it, Marlaina Schiavo? And no immediate action taken. She`s been indicted, Marlaina.
MARLAINA SCHIAVO, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Well, according to --
GRACE: I`d do a back flip if they put somebody in my twins` class that had been indicted with a felony.
SCHIAVO: Well, according to the school, she hasn`t breached anything in terms of the code. And she told them all along what was going on so therefore they thought that she was within --
GRACE: I guess she did because she knew she was going to end up on this show.
SCHIAVO: True. The problem here is that they did not tell the parents anything that was going on until after it was resolved.
GRACE: No. No. No, Marlaina. That`s not the problem. The problem is she tried to poison her husband. And she`s walking free tonight and she`s back in the classroom. That`s the problem.
SCHIAVO: She was never yanked from the classroom.
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Staff Sergeant Ryan Ostrom, 25, Liberty, Pennsylvania, killed Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Infantry badge, Pennsylvania Meritorious Service medal.
Once went on a peace-keeping mission to Bosnia with his father and brother. Loves sports, coaching basketball, paintball, hunting. Leaves behind parents Donna and Scott, two sisters, two brothers, fiancee, Tracy.
Ryan Ostrom, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you. And a special goodnight from California friend, Josh. Isn`t he handsome?
And happy birthday to Aunt Carol Harris with two wonderful sons, Jason and Justin. Here she is with her brother and her mother, four beautiful grandchildren after a long career at the Department of Interior. She now loves taking photos and gardening.
Happy birthday, Aunt Carol.
This and our thoughts and prayers to North Carolina and our friend, Barbara. Please stay strong.
And well wishes to California friend, Emma, recovering from a broken leg.
And thank you to Lamar`s Donuts.
And.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
