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Nancy Grace
Zahra`s Body Dismembered, Scattered
Aired November 15, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, North Carolina. A 10-year-old little girl snatched from her own bedroom in the dark of night. The little girl, Zahra, completely dependent on two hearing aids, only walks with a prosthetic leg after bone cancer, vanishes into thin air, bedroom empty, prosthetic gone, hearing aids left behind. Last person to see Zahra alive, stepmommy.
Zahra`s prosthetic leg found discarded in dense brush. A bone believed to be Zahra`s discovered. Police swarm the family home, ripping out the bedroom walls. Stepmommy`s jailhouse letters say what Adam Baker did was, quote, "horrifying." Obsessed with pagan worship, vampires, the dark arts, stepmommy changes her story, says she find Zahra dead, that Zahra was sick for weeks but she never took her to the doctor, claiming she was afraid to call 911.
In the last hours, we learn stepmommy tells police facts of Zahra`s death. Defense lawyers find critical evidence to verify the story. We learn Zahra`s body parts spread across the county, hidden in multiple locations. Stepmommy and Daddy now implicated in murder and dismemberment and disposal of little Zahra. God has Zahra whole, in one piece tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "The monster people are saying."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All fingers have been pointed at her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I want a chance to be heard, dammit."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Elisa, do you have anything to say?
EMILY DIETRICH, ZAHRA`S MOTHER: (INAUDIBLE) happened to her!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "But it`s not like I am not able to defend my freaking self."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Intense pressure on stepmom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Maybe I should just change my name to evil. What do you think? LOL."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, joining us from the field. Jean Casarez, what we are learning tonight is what many criminologists, including myself, have feared from the get-go. There were tell-tale signs. It was looking us in the face, Jean Casarez. Now we are getting evidence this child not only has been murdered, but she has been dismembered, her body parts spread across county after county.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": You`re right, Nancy, and it comes from legal documents. This is a motion to reduce bail, legal documents filed in the last hours by Elisa Baker`s defense team. And this is what it says. It confirms that Elisa Baker identified to law enforcement that little Zahra Baker was deceased, and Nancy, as you have said from the very beginning, that her little body was dismembered and it was put at various sites around the county. Once they got that information, Nancy, they went and began to retrieve that potential evidence.
GRACE: Out to the field. Joining us in front of the Baker home, Natisha Lance. Why -- how do we know? Why are we confirming tonight the body is dismembered, that they with their four hands tore that child apart and threw her in various locations? I`m not saying the tell-tale signs haven`t been there from the get-go. I`ve seen them. I just didn`t want to interpret them.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, this is information that is coming from Elisa Baker`s attorney in an effort to get her bond reduced. Now, in this, they write that the not only was Zahra Baker deceased, but also her body was dismembered and scattered at various locations. They said that these locations were remote, so Elisa Baker would need to accompany police in order to find these things.
Now, two of the locations, police were able to locate human remains. We do know that bone that was found on Christie Road, where police have now confirmed DNA matches Zahra Baker`s, and also partial human remains that were found just last week before this announcement made by police that they believe belonged to Zahra Baker.
Now, Nancy, in addition to this, Elisa Baker also informed police of various items that they would be able to find at the Baker home right behind me, and also directed them to finding the prosthetic leg gel (ph) that was also found on Christie Road.
GRACE: ... Jostad. Ellie, what more can you tell us? What about the mattress?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, right. Elisa Baker`s attorneys also claim that she`s the one who described that mattress, the mattress that was found at the landfill, that when they found it, it was consistent with what Elisa Baker said it would look like. Also, she specifically led them to the dumpster where the mattress was disposed.
GRACE: OK. Ellie Jostad, it`s my understanding that the mattress, which has been the centerpoint, the centerpiece for a couple of weeks now - - we just didn`t get it.
JOSTAD: Right.
GRACE: It`s my understanding that it was so critical to get this mattress, that that is why they spent day after day after night after night out there looking for the mattress. That`s one of the first things Elisa Baker told them that they could verify. what do we know about the mattress?
JOSTAD: Right, Nancy. Well, we, unfortunately, don`t know what kind of forensic evidence was on that mattress when they found it. Police did say that they believe there is DNA evidence there.
GRACE: It`s my understanding, Jean Casarez, that we know that the mattress was a flowered mattress. In fact, it was a flowered mattress. We have been, from our sources, told that Elisa Baker knew exactly what dump it was put in, what dumpster, hence they could determine exactly where, and the dump site it was, that it was covered in DNA. In fact, it was covered in DNA.
In fact, defense lawyers say they went. They got this critical piece of evidence. I`m wondering if that was not the critical piece of evidence. I don`t know. Maybe it was something they found in the home before police went and ripped up the home. We also know she pointed out certain pieces of furniture. They went and got the furniture, and it verified her story.
But back to the mattress. What do we know? Let`s analyze it, Jean.
CASAREZ: Yes.
GRACE: Was the mattress where they dismembered her? There! I put it out there!
CASAREZ: That`s right. That`s exactly right, Nancy. That is exactly what I was thinking. You know, Nancy, you and I covered dismemberment cases on Court TV. We know what happens. We know the blood, the amount of blood that`s involved with that. We know that they executed a search warrant in the home. They got the drains in the home, then the sinks in the home.
GRACE: You know, Jean Casarez, I`m just thinking, you know, the mom, the stepmother is -- P.S., the bio mom, to my understanding -- I`m going to find out in a moment -- has gone back to Australia. The stepmom is spouting off all this information in her bid to implicate Adam Baker. But Jean Casarez, if she knows all this, she had to be right there! If she`s not -- if she`s not the devil, she`s in bed with the devil. So what do I care?
CASAREZ: Well, it`s called party to a crime, legally party to a crime. But this may be trying to save her life.
GRACE: Tell me again about the mattress. I want to analyze that.
CASAREZ: All right. Well, first of all, we saw a mattress being taken out of the home in plastic. And then the next thing we know, they`re at a landfill looking for a mattress, and they found something. They finally admitted that was the piece of evidence that was critical to this case, that they were looking at. They collected that mattress. We don`t know what they found, but we`ve heard DNA.
GRACE: OK, let`s take a look at it.
CASAREZ: DNA...
GRACE: Let`s take a look at it. Let`s take a look at it. Natisha, we get the mattress that we now realize how critical it is. From what we are deducing, that may have been where this child was dismembered by her father and her stepmother. But then right after that, it all starts falling like dominoes. They take Elisa Baker out of the jailhouse. She goes to their various locations, and suddenly, they find the prosthetic leg. But tonight, we find out that it was a gel that they found? Explain.
LANCE: That`s right, Nancy. Remember, they had to go seeking these medical records from Australia in order to make the identification on the prosthetic leg. But what this document says is that police located the gel liner for the prosthetic leg, and it was Elisa Baker who led them to that gel liner.
Now, also, Nancy, this whole thing started to unfold on October 22nd. That is when, according to this document, Elisa Baker went to her attorneys and told them that she knew details about Zahra Baker`s death, as well as her disappearance. They also informed the investigator working with the defense team. And then at that point, that is when they were able to corroborate that with this key piece of evidence. The next day, they contacted the district attorney`s office and told them that they were willing to cooperate and go forward with more information with this case.
GRACE: OK, let`s go back through the timeline. Do it again, Ellie Jostad. Let`s get it clear.
JOSTAD: OK. Well, it is October 22nd when Elisa Baker tells her attorneys that she knows about the disappearance and death of Zahra Baker. That next day, they contacted the -- or they -- sorry -- rather they were able to determine that night that it was reliable evidence. Early that morning, they found some piece of evidence they believe was key. They went to the DA`s office, told them that she was willing to cooperate.
The next evening -- by that time, we`re up to October 24th. That is when Elisa Baker starts talking. Through her attorneys she begins telling police locations to check. The next day after that, she`s taken with police to specific locations where she told them what to look for and where they would be able to find it.
GRACE: With us right now, special guest Marc Klaas, president and founder, Klaas Kids Foundation. He is joining us from San Francisco. Weigh in, Marc.
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, you know, it reminds me of a very famous quote, that -- that all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. And it seems like good people let this little girl down every step of the way and that, in fact, evil did triumph. And now that evil, Mrs. Baker, for her to think for a minute that by implicating herself in the murder, the dismemberment and the disposal of this poor little disabled girl should somehow qualify her for a reduced bond, either her or her lawyers, is absolutely ludicrous. I don`t even know what kind of a parallel universe these people must be living in.
GRACE: Well, I`m just stunned that she goes and tells cops where the pieces of this child are, and then she turns around and wants her bond reduced. Over my cold, dead body!
With me right now, Brittany Bentley. She is a relative of Elisa Baker and a friend of this child, Zahra Baker. She`s joining us in Hickory, North Carolina, at the Baker home. Ms. Bentley, your friend, your relative, Elisa Baker, has told police where parts, parts of a dismembered child is, and it is being confirmed as we go to air right now. What is your response?
BRITTANY BENTLEY, RELATIVE OF ELISA BAKER: I`m just -- I`m sick to my stomach that somebody could be capable of doing this. I knew Elisa was a bad person. Nobody could ever predict -- you know, imagine this was going to happen. Now that I found out the way that it happened, the dismemberment and everything, I`m so -- I`m angry. At this point now, I`m very angry.
GRACE: When you say now that you have found out -- what is it that you believe you found out?
BENTLEY: I believe that Elisa did it. I believe Adam helped cover it up. You know, they found parts of her body. It just makes me sick that he`s walking the streets right now and not behind bars.
GRACE: Well, Brittany Bentley, was there never a red flag of warning to anybody that this child was being abused? You don`t just one day decide to dismember your baby girl. It doesn`t work like that. Nobody saw anything?
BENTLEY: A lot of -- a lot of people saw things and nobody`s -- nobody came forth. Nobody -- nobody is still coming forth and really telling, other than when DSS was called by her daughter and me, and I heard other people called. That`s about it. A lot of people knew.
GRACE: Family and children services were called. Cops were called until they got tired of taking the calls. And tonight, as we go to air, we learn that not only does stepmommy tell police where this child`s dismembered body can be found, she goes into court in front of God and everybody and asks for her bond to be reduced! May she rot in hell!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DIETRICH: Unless you understand the story, you don`t understand the pain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "We really didn`t kill her."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Breaking news for you right now in the Zahra Baker case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "But what he did after the fact is kinda horrifying."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They have recovered enough physical evidence to believe we have found Zahra.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Maybe I should just change my name to evil. What do you think? LOL."
DIETRICH: He had no right!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You ought to be in jail! You ought to be hung!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "But Zahra isn`t missing."
DIETRICH: I have no words for that woman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is with great regret that we`re not able to find Zahra alive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Human remains have been found.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Presumed murdered.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the search for the 10-year-old North Carolina girl.
DIETRICH: Zahra, I`m so sorry that your stepmother -- that your stepmother hit you!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Natisha Lance, our producer, standing by at the Baker home, Hickory, North Carolina. For those of you just joining us, we learn that Elisa Baker has told police Zahra`s dead and that parts of Zahra are spread throughout at least one county. The child has been dismembered.
Natisha Lance, are police still looking?
LANCE: Police are still looking and searching based on tips and leads that come in, Nancy. Also, they are conducting interviews. I can tell you that they met with the district attorney today, having meetings, also planning for the future. However, police have still not named a suspect. They have said that they had...
GRACE: OK...
LANCE: ... their persons of interest...
GRACE: ... what I was asking...
LANCE: ... from the very beginning...
GRACE: ... was the simple question, Are they still looking? And I`m interpreting your answer to mean yes.
LANCE: Yes.
GRACE: OK. Where are they looking? Do you know?
LANCE: I know that they had two-man search teams out this weekend at various locations, but they have not revealed the specific locations.
GRACE: OK. What this means -- out to you, Michael Gast, director and founder, National Academy of Police Diving and a searcher for children, murdered and missing children -- this can only mean that they`re still looking for body parts. They still have not recovered all of this child, Michael.
MICHAEL GAST, DIR. & FOUNDER, NAT`L ACADEMY OF POLICE DIVING (via telephone): Well, that`s probably true. But also, they`re probably looking for the implements that were utilized, and so they`re going to be running around until they get a good target area.
GRACE: With me is C.W. Jensen, retired Portland police captain, joining us out of Portland. Weigh in, C.W.
C.W. JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Well, I think that they have the best kind of evidence, and that`s one of the suspects spilling her guts. So she`s told them a lot of information. Do I think she`s telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? No. But she`s telling them significant information, leading them to where this little -- poor little girl`s body parts are located. The fact that they`re only taking two detectives at a time makes me think they really are focused on certain areas.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They say jailed stepmom Elisa Baker claimed Zahra was sick.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I was trying to save us both, but why should I?"
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And that she found her dead.
GRACE: Found Zahra dead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s dead.
GRACE: No doubt!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Everyone wants me dead."
DIETRICH: The prosthesis was the hardest. I want them to find her so we can put her to rest!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "He`s letting everyone destroy me."
DIETRICH: I have to do this for her. And I have to find justice for her!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That last voice you heard was that of Zahra`s biological mother. She has returned to Australia, and our sources tell us that she is hoping for Zahra`s remains to be sent there. But tonight, police still searching for more body parts. The only people that know where Zahra`s body parts are, Elisa Baker, Adam Baker, which leads me to the million- dollar question. Why doesn`t Adam Baker find himself in a jail cell? Why is he still walking around?
Help me out, Pat Brown.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: ... have enough evidence yet to decide what he`s done, you know, at the moment. I mean, I`m sure they`re looking at it and they`re going to get it together, but I mean, they just don`t have enough.
I want to point out something about Elisa Baker. This woman loves being in control. You can see through all the letters. She even wants to be her own defense team because she can take care of herself. My belief is because of that, she was willing to give all that information so she could be at the helm and therefore, you look back at the whole story there, she was in control of everything from the beginning.
GRACE: Put up the mug shot, please, Elizabeth. I want to see that mug shot of Elisa Baker again. OK, take a look. She doesn`t even look sad. Am I crazy? She looks like she`s got a half smile on her face as she looks at the camera. What does that say, Caryn Stark? You`re the shrink.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: ... as though she`s saying, I`m able to get away with this, I don`t care what you think or what you do to me.
GRACE: Put her back up again. She kind of looks like, yes, I know, but you`re not going to catch me.
STARK: Exactly, like the cat that ate the canary, you know (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Out to the lines. Frances in New Jersey. Hi, Frances.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Just wanted to tell you how much -- I watch your show all the time, and I really love you. You do a great job. And I hope these two go to jail. And I just can`t stand them. But my question is -- the case workers that come to the home, and they come out and they check on them, why didn`t they do anything to protect this little girl?
GRACE: You know what...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I think they should lose their jobs for not doing something.
GRACE: I think that`s the least that should happen to them, Frances in New Jersey. DFACS in and out of the home. We have a relative tonight of Elisa Baker. She called children`s services. Neighbors called police. How long was this child abused before she was murdered and dismembered at the hands of her parents?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "My family will never believe Adam has done what he has."
GRACE: Has stepmommy cracked?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I`m helping the cops try and get my soon-to-be ex-husband in here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She loves her daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has been cooperating with police.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She has tried to cooperate with the police.
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: This woman is just like a shark.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Baker joined police in the search.
KLAAS: She`s always moving forward.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She has allegedly given them more information.
KLAAS: She`s destroying whatever is in her path.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The family got rid of a mattress.
KLAAS: Whether it`s relationships --
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Started to point the finger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "The cops promised if I would help them with what I know, they would keep him locked up for my safety."
KLAAS: This is a little girl --
ZAHRA BAKER, MISSING 10-YEAR-OLD: I can actually hear more than without my hearing aid.
KLAAS: -- that has been discarded piece by piece.
ADAM BAKER, FATHER OF MISSING 10-YEAR-OLD GIRL ZAHRA BAKER: It appears they may have taken my daughter.
KLAAS: They discarded her mattress.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: DNA evidence on the mattress.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I was trying to save us both, but why should I? He`s letting everyone destroy me."
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Adam, did you have any involvement in her disappearance?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "But it`s not like I am not able to defend my freaking self. Dark wishes, Elisa."
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, all indications the child is murdered inside the home.
Why, Jean Casarez? What do we know?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, what we know is through legal documents, and there`s nothing more factual than a legal document, and what it is confirming is that on the 22nd of October, Elisa Baker went to her defense attorneys saying that she had information on the disappearance and death of Zahra Baker.
On the 23rd, the defense attorneys wanted to corroborate, they wanted to believe her. They went out and say they found a piece of evidence. They turned it over to prosecutors. Prosecutors contacted law enforcement and Elisa Baker went out twice -- not once, twice to multiple sites in the county.
GRACE: Weigh in, Ellie Jostad. What do we know about furniture being seized from the home? And this is addition -- in addition to the wall being torn out.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: That`s right.
GRACE: And the sinks, the faucets, the drains.
JOSTAD: Yes, you`re right, Nancy. When we saw that video of what the house looked like inside, you could see sections of plumbing removed, huge holes in the floor, one that went down to the bare ground.
We know that police took out a mattress, a bed frame, also sections of drywall, and in this document, it claims that Elisa Baker specifically told them what they could find in the house and it claims that what they found corroborated what she said.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. For those of you just joining us, in the last hours, we confirmed that Elisa Baker, Zahra`s stepmother, has told cops the circumstances surrounding the child`s death and her disappearance, and that the child can be found in many areas across the county. In other words, the child has been dismembered.
Out to the lines. Joy in Kentucky. Hi, Joy.
JOY, CALLER FROM KENTUCKY: Hi, Nancy. I have a question and a comment.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am.
JOY: The question is, is there any evidence to tie the father with the murder of this little girl?
And my comment is, this was his child, his flesh and blood. If his wife was abusing his child, the fact that he did not protect his little girl makes him just as responsible.
GRACE: I feel the same way, Joy in Kentucky. I do know this. Remember that 911 call where he is asking the dispatcher hey, how you doing, blames the child for being broody at 10 years old, claiming she`s going through puberty. He backs up that story about the phony million- dollar ransom note.
I mean his 911 call is full of lies. Now, how he cannot be part of it, I don`t know. I don`t understand it.
Unleash the lawyers. Randy Kessler, defense attorney, Atlanta. Jason Oshins, defense attorney, New York.
What about it, Oshins?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Listen, I think police are evaluating just all the evidence and the informational evidence that Miss Baker, who`s inside prison, has given them. And I think once they really get a firm hand --
GRACE: Whoa, whoa. Put Oshins up.
OSHINS: Yes.
GRACE: Evaluating the evidence? You mean finding her body parts?
OSHINS: Well, you know, not just --
GRACE: Come on. Jason --
OSHINS: Nancy, not just the physical evidence.
GRACE: Don`t try it with me tonight, of all nights.
OSHINS: I`m not trying it. I`m not trying.
GRACE: Don`t. Don`t. They`re evaluating the evidence. They`re looking for the rest of her body. What do you mean, evaluating the evidence?
OSHINS: What she has supplied to them informationally to date has been reported --
GRACE: OK, whatever you want to call it.
OSHINS: -- has been corroborated, but I think they need to determine whether she`s protecting herself by implicating him. Just going through all of that, so they`re certain before they ultimately charge either or both of them.
GRACE: Kessler?
RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There`s something interesting or fishy. I mean you prosecuted a lot of cases, Nancy. When someone gives this kind of information, knows these kind of details and they`re only charged with obstruction of justice, there is something loose.
They`re missing some connection in the chain of evidence. I don`t know what it is. Why are they not --
GRACE: Put him up. Put him up. Did you ever think maybe they`ve got a GPS locator stuck on his car?
KESSLER: I`m talking about her.
GRACE: Maybe they`re tapping his lines? I`m talking about him.
KESSLER: I`m talking about --
GRACE: I`m talking about -- he`s walking around.
KESSLER: Right.
GRACE: She`s not charged with murder. Something`s not right. Unless they`re gathering evidence.
KESSLER: They may be driving a wedge between the two of them. You`re right. They may be trying to find out where he`s going to go.
GRACE: Hey --
KESSLER: Well, why don`t they --
GRACE: Got some news for you.
KESSLER: Yes?
GRACE: Draw -- putting a wedge between them? You`re absolutely right, Kessler. You`re right about that.
What do we know about the letters, Jean Casarez? New letters we`ve learned about.
CASAREZ: That`s right. New letters that Elisa Baker was writing, talking about her husband, Adam Baker, talking about his involvement or lack of involvement, talking about also Zahra Baker herself.
GRACE: What else do we know, Ellie?
JOSTAD: I`m sorry, Nancy, I couldn`t hear your question. It`s loud in the --
GRACE: We`re talking -- OK, we`re talking about the letters.
JOSTAD: Yes.
GRACE: The letters that -- the most recent ones that she has sent out. What do we know about them?
JOSTAD: Right, Nancy. Well, she`s explaining again that she`s stuck behind bars, that Adam Baker is out free walking around. She says that she was trying to protect both of them, but instead, she`s stuck there, he`s letting her hang -- you know hang out to dry is what she`s saying.
GRACE: So there you have it, Kessler and Oshins, exactly what the two of you have been saying on and off the air for awhile now.
And you brought it up again, Kessler, the wedge between them. Now she`s saying Adam Baker has hung her out to dry.
But I`m telling you, she`s the one blaming him, Oshins.
OSHINS: Yes, but I think, you know, you`ve got to -- from the law enforcement perspective, you`ve got to be, you know, completely evaluative in whether she`s protecting herself or not.
GRACE: We know that.
OSHINS: And I think further, if ultimately she`s going to be a cooperating witness, they need to be certain, completely, before they arrest the husband. And they use her to testify against him.
GRACE: Well, this is what I think. They`re giving the father enough rope to go ahead and hang himself.
OSHINS: That`s possible.
GRACE: They don`t even have to ask her a question. She`s writing it in letters to everybody under the sun. They don`t have to ask her anything. All right?
OSHINS: I think -- I think, Nancy, you`re right. There are probably GPS, they are following him, they are waiting for him to trip himself up.
GRACE: I can only pray, Jason Oshins and Randy Kessler.
Joining me right now, special guest, Dr. Joshua Perper, the chief medical examiner, Broward County, author of a second book, "When Doctors Kill."
Doctor Perper, as always, an honor to have you on our air waves.
Dr. Perper, you know they make it look easy in movies. It`s not so easy to dismember a body. It is not easy. So this means they had hours and hours to think about what they were doing.
How difficult is it, Dr. Perper, even a child`s body, to dismember a child`s body?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN DOCTORS KILL": Well, it`s difficult, especially for people who don`t have any kind of anatomic knowledge, so they don`t know how to cut an area of joints, and therefore, this horrible task is much more difficult and it can take a considerable amount of time.
You`re absolutely right.
GRACE: You know, Marc Klaas, I`m coming to you right now, practically everybody on our panel tonight, almost everybody, has children but you have loved deeply and lost your daughter, Polly.
You know, when John David or Lucy have a boo-boo, I don`t care if it`s on the bottom of their foot, I get down on my knees and will kiss it. And now they pretend to have boo-boos so I`ll kiss whatever. It`s the finger, it`s the elbow, it`s the nose, it`s the foot.
I can`t even imagine a parent dismembering a child. I just -- I`m talking about it because that`s what former prosecutors do, they analyze it coldly, but I can`t think about it.
What do you do? She`s laying on a mattress, what do you do? To start hacking her apart? I`m not able to make this connect in my heart, although in my mind I know that this is what has happened.
KLAAS: Anybody that would commit a crime like that has to be totally disassociated. They have to have absolutely no empathy for other human beings. They, I guess, have to be psychopathic to even contemplate and get away with something like that.
It`s beyond the pale. It`s one of the worst things imaginable. It really is. I`m stunned. I`m absolutely stunned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF TOM ATKINS, HICKORY POLICE: I`ve been dreading this moment.
EMILY DIETRICH, ZAHRA BAKER`S MOTHER: I`m sorry that you had to have a bad life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I have told the cops everything I know about what`s happened to Zahra."
DIETRICH: Your stepmom should have not made you walk up a hill.
Z. BAKER: I can actually hear more than without my hearing aid.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Ain`t the monster people are saying. I want a chance to be heard, damn it."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There was a bruise under her eye.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I`m climbing the walls literally."
KLAAS: History of cruelty.
DIETRICH: If you`re in a place in heaven.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police have in fact found remains belonging to Zahra Baker.
ATKINS: Investigators, agents and officers and staff who have worked on this case are devastated. They were not able to find Zahra alive and bring her home safely.
DIETRICH: Please have a safe journey up there.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: With me right now, a special guest, April Fairchild. This is stepmother Elisa Baker`s younger sister.
April, thank you for being with us.
APRIL FAIRCHILD, SISTER OF ZAHRA`S STEPMOM ELISA BAKER: You`re welcome.
GRACE: What do you make of this?
FAIRCHILD: Well, pretty much just like the rest of the world, I mean, we`re in shock. We don`t know what to think. We`re outraged. We`re heartbroken. You know, this is so hard. We have been -- actual blood relatives have been dodging the media until now, you know.
Brittany Bentley and her mother say that they`ve witnessed abuse and whatnot. They actually did not, and that`s pretty much -- you know, they say they witnessed things, the blood relatives in the family cannot confirm that. And I know that they`re pretty much the only ones that the media can get in contact with, because you know, they seem to be where the cameras are.
GRACE: You know, it`s interesting, April -- and I`m going to go to Brittany Bentley on your question, on your comment. But if it were me, and my sister was telling cops where she hid the body parts of a 10-year-old, I think I would be a little more concerned about that --
FAIRCHILD: Yes.
GRACE: -- than Brittany Bentley saying something on TV.
FAIRCHILD: I know. We are very distraught about that. But we`re even more distraught that Adam Baker is not sitting in a jail cell right beside of her. He is just as guilty for --
GRACE: OK. The first thing you bring up is Brittany Bentley doesn`t know what she`s talking about. Hello? This child --
FAIRCHILD: Yes. We`re just frustrated, OK? We`re frustrated --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: -- battled bone cancer --
FAIRCHILD: We`re heart broken --
GRACE: -- hearing aids. Leg amputated above the knee.
FAIRCHILD: You know, we`re very distraught about the situation and you know the last thing we need is non-blood relatives on air claiming things that are not true, when there are --
GRACE: That`s the last thing you need?
FAIRCHILD: -- more that`s going on.
GRACE: That`s the last thing you need? I would think the last thing you need is finding the child`s skull buried in the backyard.
FAIRCHILD: Absolutely.
GRACE: That would be a little more upsetting than somebody saying --
FAIRCHILD: I would agree with that, Nancy. I will agree with that, Nancy. I will. You know, and as far as the actual blood relatives in the family, you know, we are dealing with different things from all aspects.
Do we support Elisa Baker? Our family, no. We do not. Are we saying that any of this is OK and justified? It is not. Either way it goes.
GRACE: Well, let me go to you, Brittany Bentley. Any response to Miss Fairchild?
BRITTANY BENTLEY, RELATIVE OF BAKER FAMILY, FRIEND OF ZAHRA: Yes. I did witness it. Her nephew Zachary witnessed it. No, my mother didn`t. I went and told my mother so I can`t say that she witnessed it but yes, I did, along with others that have come forth. And --
GRACE: Be specific, Brittany. What did you witness?
BENTLEY: OK. There was one night that we were over there, me and Zachary, Miss Fairchild`s nephew, and Elisa went back there. We heard the beating. We (INAUDIBLE) the door, looked back there, saw her beating her on her back and walked out.
You know, we saw the black eye. Brittany, Elisa`s own daughter called me about, you know, I remember Elisa -- one day coming out saying how she hurt her hand because she hit Zahra so hard on her leg. So yes, I did witness it.
GRACE: What was the excuse that Elisa Baker used to beat this child? Why did she say she did it?
BENTLEY: Lot of times I would come over there and she would be like I just got done, you know, spanking her, she tattle-taled at school, she told a lie, just small things. It`s always something like she told at school. She fibbed. She made a bad grade. Just small things that kids don`t --
GRACE: Well, what would Adam Baker do? But why did Adam Baker stand by and let it happen?
BENTLEY: I can`t answer that. I don`t know. I don`t know my father that would sit back and let somebody do that to his child. I don`t know.
GRACE: OK. April Fairchild, it sounds to me like she did, firsthand, observe abuse in the home.
FAIRCHILD: OK. I`m going, you know, on my blood relative, my nephew, he`s saying that they never actually witness anything because things were happening behind closed doors.
GRACE: Well, now you`ve heard her story.
FAIRCHILD: And I`m not denying that my sister may not have abused her. Do I think she did? Yes. Is she capable? Yes. But there -- you know my brother said that they didn`t actually see it with their eyes.
GRACE: OK. Caryn Stark, help me out here. And bring in the lawyers, Randy Kessler and Jason Oshins.
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Nancy --
GRACE: Why? She`s upset that somebody might be wrong about the abuse? I mean the child is dismembered.
STARK: And that`s the point. That somebody who loved this child, the father of the child -- it`s so hard for you and everyone else to understand that. And that`s what I`m talking about. Someone who`s a sociopath.
GRACE: To Kessler and Oshins. Weigh in, Jason Oshins.
OSHINS: Listen, this is -- this is heinous. It tugs at everyone`s heart. No matter what side of the aisle you`re --
GRACE: I mean, is that how defense attorneys find witnesses, Kessler? They find people that don`t want to see what happened, that will sit on the stand and go, we never saw anything?
KESSLER: Defense attorneys look for anybody that can help their client, you bet. But you know what? The next lawsuit is probably going to be against the Department of Family and Children Services. Prevention is what we want. Not -- prevention is the most important thing.
GRACE: Why can`t we have both? What world are you living in? Why can`t we have prevention and punishment?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Ain`t the monster people are saying. I want a chance to be heard, damn it. This is my life, and everyone is playing with. And I have no control over what is said or done. Maybe I should just change my name to evil. What do you think? LOL."
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Valerie in North Carolina. Hi, Valerie.
VALERIE, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: Good, dear. What`s your question?
VALERIE: OK. I have a question and a comment.
GRACE: OK.
VALERIE: Early in the investigation Adam Baker said that the last time he saw Zahra was on Thursday, and then the 911 call he said the last time he saw her was at 2:30 on Saturday morning. What`s up with that? Have investigators --
GRACE: That`s a good point, Jean Casarez. What do we know about the last time he says he saw his daughter?
CASAREZ: I`ve always thought it was Thursday was the last time that he said he saw her. And she was seen for the last time, 2:30 in the morning. I don`t know if he takes ownership of that, though.
GRACE: And, Jean Casarez, with all we`ve learned tonight and in the last hours, stepmommy goes into court a couple of hours ago and asked the judge to lower her bond and let her out of jail.
CASAREZ: Right. And the question is why, Nancy? What`s the motivation? I`m looking at this most recent letter. She says, "I was trying to save us both, but why should I? He`s just trying to destroy me."
She wants to get him, Nancy. That`s why she came forward.
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army 1st Lt. David Giaimo, 24, Waukegan, Illinois, killed Iraq. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart. Lifelong baseball fan who was an honorary bat boy for the Chicago White Sox at age 8.
Dreamed of buying a motorcycle and four-wheeler when he came home from Iraq. Leaves behind parents Joe and Julie, stepdad Frank, sister Rebecca, brothers James, a stepbrother Joseph.
David Giaimo, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us.
Happy birthday, happy 81st to our friend Wanda Hutchinson. Mother of four boys. Happy birthday.
And happy birthday to California friend Christina. A writer who loves music and traveling.
Well, you`re beautiful. Happy birthday.
Last but not least, a special good night to Georgia friends of the show, Tony, Katrina, Leslie and Terry. Aren`t they beautiful?
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Tonight, let`s pray for little Zahra, and until tomorrow, good night, friend.
END
