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Nancy Grace
Jawbone Found in Aruba, Likely to be White Female
Aired November 16, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the disappearance of Alabama beauty Natalee Holloway, missing from her high school senior trip, Aruba. Aruban police refuse to make a case against judge`s son Joran Van Der Sloot, even after he admits he hid the body.
Bombshell tonight. American tourists from Massachusetts stumble across a human jawbone on an Aruban beach, same strip where Natalee last stayed, leaving her luggage packed, ready to go. The couple take that jawbone to the hotel front desk. It`s flown by two Aruban investigators to the NFI, the Netherlands Forensic Institute. What we know tonight -- it is a female jawbone, a white female, a young adult white female. Have the remains of American girl Natalee Holloway been found?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE`S FATHER: Is there anything we`ve missed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A discovery in Aruba.
HOLLOWAY: Is there anything else that we can do to move this investigation forward?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A bone found in Aruba. Could it belong to Natalee Holloway?
BETH TWITTY, NATALEE`S MOTHER: The not knowing is the sheer hell.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This has the potential to be absolutely huge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A jawbone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is human young woman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could it be hers?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Being analyzed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The DNA profile, which can be -- which can help to identify the person from -- who the bone material is from.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A bone found in an area where Natalee was seen, a place Van Der Sloot himself had mentioned.
TWITTY: I fully believes he knows exactly where Natalee`s body is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIS: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. A bombshell tonight. A jawbone -- a human jawbone, a female human, a white female human, a young white female human jawbone -- has been found on the strip where Natalee Holloway last stayed, the hotel strip there on the Aruban beaches.
Straight out to Jean Casarez, joining us from the field, legal correspondent, "In Session." Jean, what do we know?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, we know that Aruban forensic officials took this jawbone. They have confirmed that it is the jawbone, along with an attached tooth, of a Caucasian young female girl. It is in the hands of the Hague tonight, their Forensic Institute. They are trying to determine if it is that of Natalee Holloway. They have Holloway`s DNA at the Hague, and they will make that confirmation shortly.
GRACE: And Jean, isn`t it correct that this is found on the beach, the hotel strip, where Natalee last stayed, which is consistent with everything we have known all along?
CASAREZ: That`s right. And what you`re saying is that all the statements of Joran Van Der Sloot saying that her body was taken out to the ocean, out to the water, dumped in the swamp, could be corroborated by this physical evidence.
GRACE: Well, surprise, surprise. It washed back to shore, Joran Van Der Sloot. Bet you didn`t count on that happening!
Straight out to Jossy Mansur, the managing director and publisher of "Diario." He is joining us from Aruba. Jossy, what do you know about the discovery? Tell me everything you know.
JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING DIRECTOR AND PUBLISHER, "DIARIO" (via telephone): Well, it`s big news here because everything seems to point to a link with the missing girl, Natalee Holloway. It belongs to a young Caucasian woman. It was found on the strip of beach where Joran admitted he asked a friend to dump Natalee`s body. I mean, the ocean was very rough. The waves came. They ate up some of the beach, but they returned a jawbone, lower jawbone with one tooth in it. The police acted immediately on it. It was found on Friday. On Sunday, two police officers traveled to the Hague with it, and the tests are being done right now. And we may, as soon as tomorrow, know the results.
GRACE: Joining us, Jossy Mansur, the managing director and publisher of "Diario."
I want to go now to Dr. Howard Oliver, former deputy medical examiner, forensic pathologist, joining us out of LA. Doctor Oliver, thank you for being with us. Doctor, my understanding is there`s at least -- which means more -- one tooth still attached to the jawbone. Where are they going to get DNA?
HOWARD OLIVER, FMR. DEPUTY MEDICAL EXAMINER: They can get DNA from the pulp, the inner parts of the tooth.
GRACE: Explain.
OLIVER: Well, the pulp contains the nerves and some of the nutrient materials. It`s inside the tooth. It`s usually retained. It`s not destroyed by the water and the elements. They would have to break the tooth open to get to the pulp, though.
GRACE: And what we are hearing, Dr. Oliver, is it`s going to be easier for them to get the DNA out of the interior of the tooth, as opposed to out of the jawbone. Why?
OLIVER: There is -- the pulp is retained much better because the enamel of the tooth protects the pulp.
GRACE: We are taking -- thank you, Dr. Oliver. We are taking your calls. Out to Christie in North Carolina. Hi, Chris.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, first of all, thank you for taking my call. And you are an angel on earth. My question...
GRACE: Thank you. I will play that back for the twins when they turn about 15 or so.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, that`d be great!
GRACE: What`s your question, love?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, since it`s been so long and this has probably been in the water, will DNA show up?
GRACE: You know, Dr. Oliver, DNA shows up years and years and years later. In fact, now with new forensic techniques, we go back and look at cold cases that were 50 years ago, and there`s DNA there. I think I`ve got Dr. Oliver with me. DNA -- does it age, Dr. Oliver, if it`s kept intact? Does it age?
OLIVER: It should still be intact. It`s protected by -- like I was saying previously, it`s protected by the enamel of the tooth, moreso than the bone marrow, which can dry out. But the enamel -- the pulp in the tooth stays relatively intact.
GRACE: You know, I can compare it to this, Christine, North Carolina. It`s like -- of course, the nerve is dead. The tissue is dead. But compare it to dried blood. You can get DNA from dried blood. You would look at this jawbone and these teeth that are on it, and it may look dead, it may look dry and you wouldn`t think there`s any DNA in there, but think of dried blood. You can easily get a DNA match off dried blood.
To Ellie Jostad. What more can you tell me, Ellie?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, one of the reasons why this find is significant is that it matches up with one of the versions Joran Van Der Sloot gave about what happened that night. You remember the interview that was set up, hidden camera, by Peter De Vries, an investigative journalist in the Netherlands. In that version, he told a friend of his that Natalee passed out or started shaking, had some kind of seizure while they were on the beach. He had a friend drop her body at sea. If that is what really happened, it is possible this has washed ashore from that incident.
GRACE: Now, hold on. Are you talking -- I`m getting all of his confessions confused, Ellie.
JOSTAD: Yes. Me, too.
GRACE: OK, are you talking about the confession where he was in the car with the German journalist and he talks about her dying on the beach...
JOSTAD: Right.
GRACE: ... or are you talking about the one where he says she`s using alcohol and cocaine -- not true -- and she`s on a balcony and gets sick and trembles and falls off the balcony?
JOSTAD: Well, I`m talking about the first one you`re talking about, Nancy, where he says that her body was disposed at sea. But you bring up an interesting point. This area is also close to Bobali (ph) puddle, which is another location he claimed he dumped the body. It`s only a mile or so from there.
GRACE: Take a listen to Joran Van Der Sloot confessing to Natalee`s death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): How do you know she`s dead, Joran?
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I just know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): How did you see it? Did you feel her pulse? Did it go in one time?
VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I just touched her, and there wasn`t anything anymore. It was over.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Did you try to resuscitate her?
VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I tried everything. I even lifted her up.
And one time, Patrick, it was just like in the movies. This is what she did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Shaking?
VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): Yes, very much. So I said to myself (EXPLETIVE DELETED) what is going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What did you do then?
VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): So I stayed with her. There was nobody there, Patrick.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Of course there was nobody there. It was night, Joran.
VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): So I was talking to her, talking to her, talking to her, and she didn`t say nothing. Nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): So how long was she shaking for? Do you know what that is?
VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): An epileptic attack or so?
VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): She was shaking? Was there foam coming out of her mouth?
VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): No. No foam coming out of her mouth. I didn`t see that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. Ellie, where at that time is he saying he was on the beach in relation to where this jawbone has been found?
JOSTAD: Right. Well, he said that he and Natalee are on the beach. I believe he says they were kissing, and she suddenly goes into some kind of seizure. He says that he couldn`t tell if she was alive or dead. He called a friend of his, that they wrote (ph) that the friend actually took the body out to sea in a boat very near this -- he says, you know, they`re on this strip by all the hotels in Aruba, and that`s the strip where this bone was found.
GRACE: We are taking your calls, but right now, unleash the lawyers. Michael Griffith, international criminal defense attorney who has practiced in Aruba, as well as in Peru, where Joran Van Der Sloot is currently behind bars, Raymond Giudice, defense attorney, Atlanta, and Elizabeth Kelly (ph), defense attorney, Washington, D.C.
All right, Michael Griffith, if this turns out to be what we think it is, the remains of Natalee Holloway, what are the Arubans going to do now? All these years, they said, We don`t have a body. We don`t have a body. Well, they`ve got it.
MICHAEL GRIFFITH, INTERNATIONAL ATTORNEY (via telephone): Nancy?
GRACE: Yes?
GRIFFITH: Well, they may have the body, but they have to -- they have to show that -- that Joran was -- first of all, how she died and that Joran had something to do with this. And Nancy, you know what`s unbelievable? I have a book in my library written by Vincent Bugliosi, about 20 years old, called "And the Sea Will Tell," and it`s about a woman who died off -- in Palmyra (ph) Island in the Pacific, and the skull washed ashore about two or three years later. This is very similar.
And remember, Nancy, one thing, too, even if they can prove the cause of death, if they can`t show that he had something to do with this, at the very best, they might only be able to charge him with the improper disposition of a dead body, which of course, is not as serious as murder.
GRACE: To Raymond Giudice, defense attorney, Atlanta. Ray, come on.
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I`ll tell you...
GRACE: I prosecuted cases, everybody`s prosecuted murder cases with less evidence than this.
GIUDICE: I`m about to agree with you, Nancy. In every major jurisdiction in this country, with or without the jawbone and the tooth evidence, this case would be indicted. Van Der Sloot`s trump card, his ace card, the Aruban legal establishment and law enforcement. Keystone Kops then, Keystone Kops now.
GRACE: For those of you just joining us, a human female, white female, young adult white female jawbone -- Massachusetts tourists on the Aruban beach stumble upon the jawbone. Right now, it`s at the Netherlands Forensic Institute being analyzed. Have the remains of Natalee Holloway finally been found?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Captured!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joran Van Der Sloot.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think he is a very arrogant psychopath.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joran Van Der Sloot.
TWITTY: You want to come through the TV and then kill him, I mean, and peel his skin off his face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joran Van Der Sloot.
HOLLOWAY: He`s got an account to settle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The main suspect in the Natalee Holloway disappearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Admitting he lied to people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joran Van Der Sloot has confessed several times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): How do you know she`s dead, Joran?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Knowing what happened to Natalee Holloway.
VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I just know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joran has lied from the beginning.
TWITTY: And I want to kill him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anybody confess to anything.
VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I just touched her, and there wasn`t anything anymore. It was over.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors in Aruba have said on the record, We have nothing to corroborate that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We watched the Natalee Holloway movie on TV. Parts of the movie that were true and parts that weren`t true.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Five years after Natalee Holloway vanished.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The prosecutor`s office of Aruba sent us some bone material.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A bone fragment found on an Aruban beach.
TWITTY: He won`t answer his mail, and you want (ph) him today.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are going to research the bone material.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could this be the key to solving the mystery of Natalee Holloway`s disappearance?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. For those of you just joining us, a Massachusetts couple, tourists in Aruba, stumble upon a human jawbone. They immediately take it to the front desk of their hotel, the Phoenix Hotel. It`s right there on the hotel strip where Natalee last stayed, had her bags packed, ready to go for the next morning. She never came back to that hotel room. Right now, that jawbone and teeth attached to that jawbone are at the NFI, Netherlands Forensic Institute. Have the remains of Natalee Holloway been found?
This on the heels of her mother, Beth Twitty, traveling to Lima, Peru, where she confronted, snuck into the jail and confronted Joran Van Der Sloot. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Just listen to me for a couple of minutes. I won`t do anything until I get some information about Natalee. I want to know what happened. I want to move on, Joran. If it wasn`t an accident, tell me."
"I don`t know. It`s too late for Natalee, but it`s not too late for you, Joran. I just wanted to get face to face with you. I don`t have any hate in me. Joran, I`ve been a school teacher for 30 years, and I felt like there was a real sincerity that you wanted to get this monkey off your back. And I thought that`s where we were going. I know you want your life back, but you`re looking at spending the rest of your life in prison. You have your own life ahead. You`re the boss of you. But here, Joran, the time stands still, the clock stops. You`re just stranded in time."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I hope you can understand it`s very hard for me to talk to you. It`s really not easy. I`m really doing my best. I know you have a very good heart. I know that for a fact. It is the least I owe you, for sure. I`ve made so many bad decisions and all for the wrong reasons."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Joran, you don`t need to lose your life in prison and be sitting here when you`re 60 years of age and be sitting here insisting to me that you don`t know what happened. Tell me what happened. Let me take her home."
"I wanted to see him. I wanted to get face to face with him. I wanted to peel the skin off his face. I`m thinking this is it. This is my one chance, and I`ll never get this chance again. My eyes met his, we were face to face. The only thing I had left in me was just to speak from the heart."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls, but right now, to Marc Klaas, president and founder, Klaas Kids Foundation. Marc is joining us out of San Francisco. Marc, weigh in on two things tonight to start with. Number one, the discovery of a jawbone, a white female, young adult jawbone found on the same strip where Natalee was staying, and Beth traveling all the way to Lima to confront Joran Van Der Sloot.
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Beth Holloway is the mother you would want if you were a missing child. This woman has moved heaven and earth to locate her daughter. She has absolutely no fear. I believe that all they`ve ever wanted to do was to find their daughter and bring them home -- bring her home, and I believe that now they may have accomplished that goal. I don`t think that they expected they would find her alive, and this will then give them an opportunity to bury their daughter and begin the healing process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just got so arrogant. He didn`t think anything was ever going to catch up with him, but now it has.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He did confess, but the lawyer would say, Well, it`s a coerced confession. You can`t believe it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think they believe it. That`s why they`re going to corroborate everything he said.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s a psychopath, and he`s going to play the game to the best of his ability so he can get away with as much as he can get away with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We hear a bone found.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A jawbone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bone material.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In an area where Natalee was seen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here`s what Van Der Sloot said happened. He left a bar with Natalee.
GRACE: Joran Van Der Sloot, the last one to be with her there on the beach.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said he had sex with Natalee there, but then she started shaking horribly, and then he said, quote, "There was nothing."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): How do you know she`s dead, Joran?
VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I just know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then he dumped her into the ocean.
HOLLOWAY: Nothing was done right in the beginning on this thing. Otherwise, we`d have an answer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Finally, have the remains of American girl Natalee Holloway been found? Her whole family on alert as they wait for information from the NFI, the Netherlands Forensic Institute. It is there at the Hague. The jawbone was escorted by two Aruban investigators to the Netherlands Forensic Institute, and it will be brought back by two Aruban investigators.
Joining us now, Marc Harrold, former officer, APD, attorney, author of "Observations of White Noise." Marc Harrold, what else do they need for a case?
MARC HARROLD, FORMER OFFICER, ATLANTA PD: Well, I`m not sure. Obviously, this may lead to the rest of the body. The main thing this does is it gives them which story. This guy`s been spinning this web of lies for years, all these different stories. It`s not one story with some inconsistencies from time to time, as he tells it. So if nothing else, they can go from this finding, and hopefully, figure out which story they can focus on when they interrogate him in the future.
GRACE: Back to Jossy Mansur, managing director, publisher of "Diario" there in Aruba. Jossy, is everyone acknowledging that this is Natalee? Are there that many young adult white females that have gone missing?
MANSUR: Everybody is under the impression that this -- that it does belong to Natalee. Everything points to that direction. I mean, the strip of beach where everything took place, where the Kalpoe brothers and Joran admitted that the two Kalpoe brothers took him and her to that strip of beach. It`s on the west coast of Aruba.
Now, the ocean washed back a jawbone that is very indicative because the first expert that looked at it said that it does belong to a young Caucasian girl. So the probabilities of it being Natalee is very high.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joran Van Der Sloot broke down in tears when he made the confession in front of a prosecutor and a defense attorney.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He says Flores found something on his laptop tying him to Natalee Holloway`s disappearance. Cops say he went into a rage and beat her to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there evidence on his computer that could now bring justice for the Holloway family?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A bone fragment found --
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Has the shape of being a jaw bone.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A jaw bone reportedly found on an Aruban beach.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Remains that just might be missing Alabama teen, Natalee Holloway.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Could it be hers?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want justice. This crime has been committed on the island of Aruba. And we know the perpetrator. We know he`s the suspect.
PATRICK VAN DER EEM, POSED AS JORAN VAN DER SLOOT`S FRIEND (Through Translator): You tried to resuscitate her?
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, SUSPECT IN THE DISAPPEARANCE OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY CASE (Through Translator): I tried everything. I even lifted her up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Patrick was asking him, how can you be so sure that Natalee was dead?
CASAREZ: Her body was taken to an ocean, a body of water.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: He says he left her on the beach.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: That he dumped her body in the swamp in Aruba.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Could this be the key to solving the mystery of Natalee Holloway`s disappearance?
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: It`s been five long years. Are there finally answers in the death and disappearance of American girl Natalee Holloway?
For those of you just joining us, a jaw bone was stumbled upon by American tourists there on the Aruba beach. They took it straight to their hotel lobby, laid it on the desk and it made its way to the Netherlands Forensic Institute where it`s being analyzed for DNA.
It`s my understanding that police are using as a comparison DNA obtained from Natalee`s biological mother and father.
Out to the lines. Anne in Missouri. Hi, Anne.
ANNA, CALLER FROM MISSOURI: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you.
ANNA: Thank you. A few months ago or so back, you had a couple that submitted a videotape when they were vacationing of a -- what they thought was a body in the sand in the ocean over there in Aruba, and I wanted to know if anybody followed up on that and how far that was from where this jaw bone, because I never heard anything about it after that.
GRACE: You are taking a look at exactly what Anne in Missouri is describing. This is from Patty and John Muldowney who came on the show to describe what they observed.
If you look down in there, at the bottom of the ocean, you see what they believe to have been a human body.
To Ellie Jostad. Ellie, how can we compare that? Because that location was never made public to us.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Well, right. They could never actually pinpoint the area where the Muldowneys had been on their snorkeling trip. And they searched. They did put divers in the water to try to find this area. They never could find what it was they saw that they thought looked like remains.
And the conclusion was that it might have been something like coral but they were never able to find that exact location where they were snorkeling.
GRACE: The Muldowneys appeared with us and described what they observed. They tried their best to direct police and divers to the location.
What we know tonight is a white female jaw bone has been found on the Aruban beach.
Back to Jossy Mansur. Jossy, recap it for me. What do we know?
JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING DIRECTOR AND PUBLISHER, DIARIO: What we know is a couple of tourists from Massachusetts were staying at the Divi Phoenix Hotel. They were -- one of them was leaving the next day so they took a walk on the beach and on the beach they found this jaw bone.
They brought it to the lobby, the front desk. The police were called in. The police came very quickly. They showed them where they found the bone. The police decided that it had to be taken immediately to Holland. So they took the bone with them on -- that was on Friday.
And on Sunday, the police -- two agents from the technical department of the police traveled with the bone to Holland. It was given to the institute and they`re doing all the tests now.
And by tomorrow, as far as we`re concerned, that we should know if there is a comparison, if the DNA matches the DNA from Natalee`s parents.
GRACE: Jossy Mansur, do you believe this is Natalee?
MANSUR: I think so, because everything points in that direction. I mean, it`s the strip of beach where everything took place, when she disappeared. It`s on the west coast. The sea was very rough and brought it back.
Joran admitted that he called a friend to dispose of her body in the ocean. We`ve had that impression from the beginning, that the body was dumped in the ocean by a friend or by a couple of friends, or by Joran himself.
So everything matches or indicates that this bone might very well be that of Natalee Holloway.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Nalley in Texas.
NALLEY, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Hi, Miss Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, Miss Nalley. What`s your question?
NALLEY: My question is, how trustworthy are these officials who escorted the jaw bone to this lab? Since, you know, they weren`t really forthcoming when she originally went missing, and he was able to get away, you know, with this crime.
GRACE: You know, Nalley in Texas, that`s not that farfetched because look at everything they`ve done so far in the Natalee Holloway case in Aruba. They`ve done everything they can to forego a prosecution.
What about it, Jean Casarez? I would have felt much better if an American FBI person had traveled along.
CASAREZ: That`s a good point. Nalley is talking about chain of custody. But you know, Nancy, the tooth is attached to this jaw bone and the DNA they`re going to extract is within the tooth where it meets the jaw. I don`t think that can get tampered with as you take it from Aruba to The Hague.
GRACE: I pray.
Joining me right now, Mark Hillman, clinical psychotherapist, author, "My Therapist is Driving Me Nuts."
Mark Hillman, this just must be hell for Natalee`s parents who are standing by waiting on those DNA results.
MARK HILLMAN, CLINICAL PSYCHOTHERAPIST, AUTHOR OF "MY THERAPIST IS MAKING ME NUTS": Absolutely. To relive the trauma after five years, and then when you go back to the beginning of the interview, when Beth confronts Joran in Peru, and he says this is difficult for me, a very dear friend of mine taught me a technique.
You want us to have empathy for this guy five years later after Natalee disappears? He kills Stephany Flores and it`s on videotape?
Nancy, this guy`s a pathological liar. He`s a psychotic and I hope that this does in fact confirm the DNA so -- excuse me -- so the Holloways can get on with coping. They`re never going to heal from the loss of their child. They can only have efforts to manage that pain in their heart that is missing.
GRACE: We are taking your calls and we are headed toward forensic anthropologist from the Florida Gulf Coast University, Heather Walsh-Haney.
Heather, are you with me?
HEATER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST: Yes, I am, Nancy.
GRACE: Heather, a lot of questions for you tonight. Number one, how can you look at a jaw bone? I can understand with possibly the chest bones, the pelvic bones, maybe the legs. But how can you look at a jaw bone and tell the difference between a male and female adult?
WALSH-HANEY: Ah, well, what you do is you actually look at the chin area. And in females, the midline of the chin is very pointy. In males, it`s actually blunt on the midline and then on either side, let`s say if you put your index finger right underneath your lip on the midline, on males, you`ll have two large bumps there. So right away, you can tell the difference between male and female.
GRACE: So it`s just that easy.
WALSH-HANEY: It is that easy. I promise.
GRACE: OK. Now, next question, Heather.
With me is Heather Walsh-Haney, forensic anthropologist from the Florida Gulf Coast University.
We`re taking your calls so if you`ve got a question for Heather, call it in now.
OK, Heather, you`ve explained that a male has two bumps right under the lip in the midsection of the face.
WALSH-HANEY: Yes.
GRACE: All right. How can you determine that it is a white female as opposed to an Hispanic, Asian, African-American? How do you tell?
WALSH-HANEY: Well, it tells me that they`ve got a molar and the molars of different races have different shapes and different contours. So what they`ve probably done is looked at the contours of the teeth, the crevices and the bumps, and by looking at these crevices and bumps, they`ve determined without a doubt that it`s someone who`s white or of European ancestry.
GRACE: OK. Hold on. So your back teeth. You`re referring to your back teeth, upper and lowers.
WALSH-HANEY: Yes.
GRACE: Tell me that one more time. How can you tell it`s a white female versus Asian, Hispanic, African-American? How do you know it`s a white female?
WALSH-HANEY: We know it`s a white female because the chewing teeth in the back of your mouth, your molars, in whites, they will have an extra bump on them, a bump that`s on the tongue side of that tooth.
And so it sounds to me like they have one of those molars that allowed them to be so doggone determined that it is a white female.
GRACE: So you`re telling me that no other ethnicity has that bump on the back molar?
WALSH-HANEY: Well, typically, no. It tends to be with whites.
GRACE: OK. Let me -- last question. Last question that I know of right now, Heather Walsh-Haney.
Heather, joining us from Ft. Myers, Florida tonight.
Now, Heather, how can you tell between a young adult white female and an older adult white female, say, 20 versus 40 or 20 versus 50? How do you do that?
WALSH-HANEY: Ah, well, you do that because, as your teeth grow, they grow from the crown first and then the roots that anchor into the bone. And so what we expect to see with a girl Natalee`s age -- 18 -- is we expect to see that roots for those molars are not quite complete.
The wisdom teeth that many of us get pulled out, for her may not be completely developed yet. And so they`re looking at the size, the length and the completeness of those tooth roots.
They may also be looking at the enamel, the white part of the teeth. They`re looking at the enamel seeing if there is evidence of filling, maybe chipping, maybe wear, that would be indicative of someone who is much older than Natalee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s just despicable what he has done.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He`s a very, very dangerous man.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Will justice finally prevail?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Vanished during a trip to Aruba back in 2005.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could be that the anniversary of Natalee`s disappearance might have triggered rage about what happened to his life.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Young people just don`t die from drinking too much.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Bone fragment found on an Aruban beach. Could this be the key to solving the mystery of Natalee Holloway`s disappearance?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: In interviews, Van Der Sloot denied accusations of rape and murder.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He also says I haven`t lost a night`s sleep over this.
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S FATHER: He has no remorse.
MANSUR: Joran lied a couple of times, established lies.
D. HOLLOWAY: He`s tried to avoid this justice system.
MANSUR: She was just not moving anymore.
GRACE: No history of epilepsy.
MANSUR: She wasn`t thinking anymore.
GRACE: No history that she had used drugs that night.
MANSUR: And so I thought she must be dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something`s wrong here.
MANSUR: And then he dumped her into the ocean.
D. HOLLOWAY: A total disregard for anyone else except for himself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What I can confirm is that the Prosecutor`s Office of Aruba sent us some bone material and that is what we are going to research. We are going to research the bone material whether it`s human or whether it`s from animals, and when it`s established that it`s a human material, we`re going to try to have a -- to do some DNA research on it and have a DNA profile which can be -- which can help to identify the person who that bone material is from.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to the lawyers.
To Elizabeth Kelley. So in a perfect world, of course, this case would have already been indicted for murder one in Aruba, but now that we believe Natalee`s jaw bone has been found, obviously not dead by an accidental or natural cause.
If they indict him or charge him formally with murder, who gets him first? Aruba or Peru?
ELIZABETH KELLEY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, your question is a good one, and prosecutors in Peru and Aruba and a U.S. attorney in Alabama who has charged Joran with extortion are going to be duking that out for a few years.
But what you`ve got to think about is, what is the incentive for Joran at this point? Let`s say he`s convicted in Peru of that murder. It depends on what he`s charged with in Aruba. And there has got to be an incentive for him.
Right now, he`s sitting in a Peruvian jail and if he`s convicted, Peru may not relinquish his person to be tried in Aruba, and certainly not in Alabama on the extortion case.
GRACE: Well, yes, because of course extortion is a lesser offense. Why would they ever send him to Alabama on extortion?
KELLEY: But Nancy -- Nancy, it`s not beyond the realm of possibility.
GRACE: No, it`s not. It certainly is not, Elizabeth.
KELLEY: He -- he might -- he might for some reason be acquitted in Peru.
GRACE: To Mark Hillman --
KELLEY: We don`t know that.
GRACE: -- clinical psychotherapist joining us out of New York.
Mark, come on. I don`t have to have a shrink for this, but weigh in. Of course you`d rather do time in Aruba. He would most likely escape from jail in Aruba.
HILLMAN: You`re absolutely correct. You know I think he deserves to stay there. He`s extorted money, he`s misrepresented, he`s run the Aruban police on a wild goose chase, thinking he`s got this grandiose image, then all of a sudden, he goes from Peru to Chile with the $25,000 to play poker.
Come on. Who we kidding here? Let him rot in Peru.
GRACE: Yes, I don`t want to see him go back to Aruba.
To Maria in California, hi, dear.
MARIA, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi, Nancy. I`m such a fan. So glad I got through.
GRACE: Thank you. Thank you for calling. What`s your question, dear?
MARIA: I was wondering if at the present time the police in Aruba -- are they looking for other remains? Are they waiting for the results of the DNA test?
GRACE: Good question. Do I still have Jossy Mansur with me?
MANSUR: Yes.
GRACE: Jossy, are they looking for more remains or are they just content that some American tourists stumble on the jaw bone?
MANSUR: I think they look for some more remains when the American tourists showed them the exact spot where they found this one. I don`t think they`re doing any searches now at this point. No.
GRACE: You`re kidding me. Didn`t you just see what we went through trying to find Zahra Baker? They had been looking for her for over a month now, every single day. And Kyron Horman out in Oregon. They`re still looking for him, months and months have passed.
And you`re telling me, what did they do? Kick the sand with their toe? Well, why aren`t they out there looking?
MANSUR: I have no -- we have to ask the police that, Nancy.
GRACE: Marc Klaas, why?
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, they really don`t care, do they? Remember, at the very beginning a couple of black guys were arrested in this case I believe on a tip from Van Der Sloot and the Calpoe brothers.
And they were ready to throw the book at those suckers. And then all of a sudden the truth started to emerge that this was the elite son of an elite Aruban citizen, and they just absolutely dropped the ball.
And in fact, they`ve got blood on their hands in Aruba because another young lady died because they failed to take the actions that were necessary.
And, Nancy, I don`t believe for one minute that Joran Van Der Sloot is ever going to leave the country of Chile alive.
GRACE: You know, Marc Klaas, I remember when those two guys or security guys, I think, at the Holiday Inn, are --
KLAAS: Yes.
GRACE: Is that right, Clark? Yes. And I remember talking to the mother of one of them. And no matter what question I asked her, she had a very straight forward and honest answer.
I tried every which way, up and down and all around, and she oozed sincerity. And that night when the show was over I`m like, look. You know, if the defense puts her up, it`s over. It`s going to be an acquittal because that mother is very, very believable. Because he was innocent. And they were so happy down there in Aruba to let those guys take the fall for it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is just totally, totally dragged us all through hell.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He thought he was off the hook. He considered himself as a winner.
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S MOTHER: Yes. I know he knows.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing was done right in the beginning on this thing. Otherwise we`d have an answer.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A piece of jaw bone washes up on a beach in Aruba near the area where Natalee Holloway was last seen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a major break if in fact it`s her tooth.
VAN DER EEM (Through Translator): Was there foam coming out of her mouth?
VAN DER SLOOT (Through Translator): No, no foam coming out of her mouth. I didn`t see that.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. For those of you just joining us, a jaw bone believed to be that of Natalee Holloway has been found. A tourist stumbled on it on an Aruban beach.
Other than poking their toe in the sand a little bit, Aruban police are no longer looking for remains in that same area.
I want to go to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Remember when Lacey Peterson washed ashore 24 hours later on the next tide, Connor, her unborn baby boy washed ashore.
Let`s just say this jaw bone washes ashore, Natalee`s jaw bone. They couldn`t wait it out for 24 hours and go back to the same beach and look?
CASAREZ: Nancy, this is a crime scene. That`s what you`re saying. A crime scene is cordoned off. Let`s say hypothetically it`s not Natalee, it`s somebody else, and that`s still a crime scene that needs to be solved.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, what, if anything, are they doing to find the rest of Natalee, presuming this is Natalee?
CASAREZ: The prosecution today from Aruba has just focused on whether The Hague confirms this is Natalee. So we`re going to have to stay tuned until tomorrow because those results could be in.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop to remember Army Specialist Toccara Green, 23, Rosedale, Maryland, killed Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart, Bronze Star, Good Conduct Medal.
Her courage earned her the honor of being buried at Arlington National Cemetery, the first female native of the state of Maryland to die in the line of duty. Remembered for determination, confidence, leadership.
Leaves behind parents Gary and Yvonne, brother Gary Jr., sister-in-law Kim, Matthew, Jalen, niece Tiara.
Toccara Green, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but our biggest thank you is to you for being with us and a special good night to friend Christy Romans. Her new book, "Smart is the New Rich: If You Can`t Afford It, Put It Down." It`s in stores right now.
And tonight a special happy birthday to friend Cherrie Rose Ander from St. Louis, (INAUDIBLE).
Happy birthday, Cherrie.
And good night from California friend, Josh. Shouldn`t that be a NANCY GRACE hat?
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
