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Nancy Grace
Possible Second Human Bone Found on Aruba Beach
Aired November 22, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight in the Natalee Holloway investigation. We`ve just learned a second bone has been found on an Aruban beach. Is it Natalee Holloway? Tonight, exclusively, we have the people who found that bone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, SUSPECT IN NATALEE`S DISAPPEARANCE: I`ve always done what I myself wanted, what I myself thought was best, and even after I should have learned from my mistakes.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: A young white female human jawbone has been found.
VAN DER SLOOT: I`ve told so many lies.
GRACE: Have the remains of Natalee Holloway finally been found?
BETH TWITTY, NATALEE`S MOTHER: I want to move on, Joran.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The discovery of a second bone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could this be another piece of evidence that helps crack the case?
TWITTY: I`ve wanted to just -- you know, tell me what happened and let me take her home.
GRACE: Standing by waiting on those DNA results.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, sitting in for Nancy Grace. Now a second bone has been found on an Aruban beach. Is it the remains of Natalee Holloway? Let`s go right out to Jean Casarez, standing by live in Aruba. Jean, another extraordinary revelation.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Thanks. Aruban prosecutors confirmed with us this morning that police had come to the Westin Hotel and took into custody a possible second bone. Now, this comes from a New Jersey family vacationing here around the same time that the Massachusetts couple was here. They were collecting shells and found what was believed to be a bone. They thought nothing of it. They left it at their hotel, on the balcony area. It was recovered Friday night. It`s now in the hands of police. But the general manager of the hotel is not sure what to think of it because he said a lot of people eat on this beach.
LALAMA: Interesting, Jean. But can you describe what it looks like, its size, its condition?
CASAREZ: What we understand is that it is thin. It is longer, but not too long, but it has a slight curvature to it. And the family believed that it was a rib bone when they saw it.
LALAMA: Well, it`s extraordinary because anyone, Rupa Mikkilineni, who has covered this case from the start, is waiting for great anticipation for tomorrow because of that jawbone and molar. Perhaps the two are connected. We`re going to get results tomorrow, correct, on the jawbone?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Pat. I am hearing that within hours, the Aruban prosecutors will be hearing from the Holland forensic team at the Hague. And tomorrow afternoon, we should be getting the results of all of those tests -- the DNA tests that were done last week, the dental records that were sent and a match, perhaps, was made, perhaps not. We will know all of these results tomorrow, whether this jawbone belongs to Natalee Holloway.
LALAMA: A little bit out of order, but Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, I can`t imagine what it must be like for members of the Holloway family tonight.
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, I think Beth Holloway said it when she said not knowing is unbearable. And it is unbearable. Not knowing what happened to your daughter, not being able to put what`s left of her body to rest is unspeakable. It really is.
LALAMA: It really is. And Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector, explain the significance of five years later -- now, again, we don`t know yet, but everyone seems to be very optimistic about this. But as an investigator, five years later, suddenly, you`ve a jawbone and a molar and perhaps another bone connected. What does that mean to someone like you?
RON SHINDEL, FMR. NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Well, you`ve got a significant piece of physical evidence, and now you can take that physical evidence and move forward with it. A jawbone would be indicative of a homicide and it would be a body involved here. The Aruban authorities now could possibly move forward on a full-blown homicide investigation, which many people have thought that they`ve kind of been dragging their feet up until now. This new evidence gives them that go-ahead to move forward and say a, Hey, a homicide was committed, we`re going to move full boat (ph) into this entire investigation.
LALAMA: Michael Griffith, international criminal defense attorney, why did the investigators come from the Hague? Why couldn`t it have been done in Aruba?
MICHAEL GRIFFITH, INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY (via telephone): Well, because in Aruba, they don`t really have the forensic laboratory or know-how to do this. The Hague, which is in the Netherlands, you know, is the mother country, is a bit better or a lot better.
But you know, I want to say something to you, that we still don`t know the cause of death. Even if it`s her jawbone, we don`t know how she died as to whether it was a murder or to whether it was an accidental overdose.
LALAMA: Well, that`s a very good point because I want to go to Dr. Michael Arnall, a board-certified forensic pathologist. And Doctor, you know, the molar and the jawbone can tell us a lot. And here`s what I want to know. Can it help us determine a cause of death if it, in fact, belongs to Natalee Holloway?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: If there`s a bullet hole through the jaw or a knife wound, then it may help to determine the cause of death. If the injury was to another portion of the body, then the jawbone may only help with identification.
LALAMA: Very interesting. Now, let me ask you this. Let`s just say they found a molar by itself. What could we glean from that alone?
ARNALL: There`s plenty of DNA even in a single molar to identify this individual positively. In addition, if the molar had a filling, then the shape of that filling could be compared to a dental record from when the patient was alive, and identification could be made from the shape of that filling.
LALAMA: So what you`re saying, then -- we`ve got a molar, we`ve got a jawbone. This is pretty significant for investigators.
ARNALL: It is quite sufficient to make a positive identification, yes.
LALAMA: But I have to remind everyone, Pam Hayes, defense attorney, doesn`t mean you can link it to Joran Van Der Sloot, correct?
PAM HAYES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It doesn`t mean because that, you know, unless there was some nexus between that item and the things that he said, you`re not going to get a connection. But unfortunately for John (SIC), since he`s been talking so much, they certainly would be in a position to make a good faith effort.
LALAMA: And Alex Sanchez, defense attorney, I`m going to guess if it were your attorney, you would try to dismiss any veracity to the results of any DNA evidence we might get from this.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, look, any defense attorney is going to challenge the DNA results. But the fact of the matter is this -- if this jawbone is hers, it is a major game changer. And if I were Joran Van Der Sloot, I`d be very concerned because if you introduce into evidence this jawbone, as well as that taped confession that he supposedly made, he may be in very serious trouble at this point.
LALAMA: We have two special guests, Ellen Stack and Adam Markmann. I believe it is aunt and nephew, and that you were on the Aruban vacation and you actually found the second bone that we revealed to the audience tonight. And welcome. Thank you for joining us. Ellen, the circumstances under which you found this bone?
ELLEN STACK, FOUND POSSIBLE SECOND BONE: We were looking for shells on the beach on vacation and came across a bone. Adam put it in a bucket, and we brought it back to our hotel room with us, never thinking any more of it.
LALAMA: Adam, you found the bone. What do you think of all of this, all of this attention that`s being paid to you as a result of it?
ADAM MARKMANN, FOUND POSSIBLE SECOND BONE: I think it`s -- I think it`s a little kind of cool because it`s really exciting about finding something that could have been hers.
LALAMA: Yes. Absolutely. And hopefully, you could have been part of helping solve this case. Let me ask you, Ellen, can you describe it? Did it seem like somebody was eating ribs or it was something from a meal that someone was having on the beach, or did it have a different kind of distinction to you?
STACK: Well, it was about maybe between six and eight inches long and maybe close to about an inch wide. And you know, at first we thought, Oh, it must be just a rib bone, never really thinking any more of it. But it did wash in from shore. So we weren`t really sure what it was and never really thought twice about it until we came home.
LALAMA: Wow. Very interesting. Jean Casarez, are police taking it, are investigators taking it seriously since it was not far from the jawbone discovery?
CASAREZ: They collected it. You see, it was not only not far from the jawbone discovery, but it also was found about the same time that the jawbone was found. So they have it in their possession now. The next step is for the chief of police to call the solicitor general of Aruba, Taco Stein, and at the end of business today, I don`t believe that call has been made. But they`re going to try to, I think, determine on the island here if it is a human bone or if it is an animal bone, and then they`ll take it from there, to do the same procedure as the jawbone.
LALAMA: And back to you, Ellen Stack. Can you tell me the weather conditions at the time that you found this bone?
STACK: Well, actually, when we arrived in Aruba, we had a lot of rain, and a lot of the beach eroded over the 10 days we were there. It actually got so bad that the sidewalks collapsed in, and that`s where Adam and I would go to look for shells. There was this one place on the beach where it seems like all of the shells kind of came to one point, and that`s where he found the bone. There were a lot of shells on that beach that day, a lot.
LALAMA: Adam, why did you want to keep this bone in particular? Not that you found a lot of them, but why were you interested in a bone to begin with?
MARKMANN: I just thought it would be kind of something cool to find and kind of look up or something. So I kept it.
LALAMA: Very interesting. And Dr. Michael Arnall, regarding the conditions -- I mean, we`re talking five years later, and lo and behold, you know, this potential evidence. Is it that big storm that -- is it -- to me, it seems just crazy that after all these years, but one storm can do it?
ARNALL: Well, the beach erosion has likely uncovered a shallow, clandestine grave, and now the contents of that grave are being distributed on the beach. It may well be the case that the remainder of the bones are still in the bottom half of that grave that have not been uncovered by the storm.
LALAMA: Yes. That`s another interesting question, Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector. If it is her, are we curious about where the rest of the body parts may be?
SHINDEL: Well, definitely. If you can identify it as Natalee Holloway, you`re going to move forward and you`re going to start looking all over the beach and trying to uncover places. There may be a shallow grave on that beach, and they`re going to start looking at that beach pretty heavy, at this point.
LALAMA: Wow. And Pam Hayes, as a defense attorney, let`s say Joran is your client. We`re told that he laughed when he was told about the jawbone. Does that surprise you, really?
HAYES: It could be a nervous laugh. That`s the way I would tend to want to portray it. But you know, people just have -- those things happen, like, a jawbone. I wouldn`t attribute anything sinister to that particular nervous gesture.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VAN DER SLOOT: I don`t know if you would mind just giving me some -- I really have been thinking a lot, just giving me some time to think. And I promise you even if you give me your address, I will write you. I mean, I will.
TWITTY: OK. OK.
VAN DER SLOOT: I really promise you I will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police today collected a possible second bone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another bone has been found in Aruba.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone is waiting.
TWITTY: You know why I`m here. It`s because...
VAN DER SLOOT: I do know why you`re here.
TWITTY: ... I want to know answers and I want to know what happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This woman has moved heaven and earth to locate her daughter.
TWITTY: I want to know what happened, and I want to move on.
VAN DER SLOOT: I really promise you I will (INAUDIBLE)
TWITTY: I want to, you know, move on in my life, and I cannot close the book.
VAN DER SLOOT: I really do know you have a good heart. It is the least I owe you.
TWITTY: If it was an accident, tell me.
VAN DER SLOOT: I`ve made so many bad decisions and all for the wrong reasons.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We could find out at any time if a jawbone found on an Aruban beach belongs to that of Natalee Holloway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, sitting in for Nancy Grace. Jean Casarez, you know, you know this, you`re close to this case, closer than anybody. Five years later, it`s extraordinary to imagine there could be a break. And I`m just curious, are people talking about it in Aruba? Are they ignoring it, or is it a big story?
CASAREZ: Oh, it`s huge! Everybody is talking about it. You know, we`re set up on the street, and people just walk by us and say, Do you know yet? Is it her? You know, this -- this pulse (ph) of this community is waiting for this announcement tomorrow. And I think people are divided. I think a lot of people believe it is finally remains of Natalee Holloway, and a lot of people just don`t believe it could be true.
LALAMA: Yes. Well, it`s hard for any of us to imagine. Rupa Mikkilineni, you`ve also been a part of this case, but we`ve also had false bone stories, have we not?
MIKKILINENI: ... certainly have, Pat. And I tell you, since 2005, when Natalee Holloway first disappeared -- it was May 30th -- there have been at least -- I have a list here -- about five or six bone sightings, many of them, all of them false alarms. We`re talking about, you know, 2005 July, a donkey and fish bones mistaken for being human bones. then in 2005 later on, a human bone found, but it was too old to possibly be Natalee Holloway`s. And the list goes on.
So we`re waiting with bated breath because maybe, finally we have some closure here. Now it`s a human bone, potentially a female white Caucasian, as per an Aruban forensic expert. Of course, this is not 100 percent confirmed by the Holland Hague forensic institute. But we have some preliminary information at least. So what are the chances that a female white Caucasian went missing in the last decade or in the last 20 years off the coast of Aruba?
LALAMA: Right. Right. And that`s something Dr. Arnall and I were talking about before the show, is that who else -- I mean, you know, there`s a higher level of optimism now. And you were saying, well, you know, that`s because no one else has said there`s a white female young -- you know, young lady missing. So we tend to feel very optimistic about this, do we not?
ARNALL: Yes. And they`ve sent the jaw for DNA testing. It`s likely that they`ve already made a positive ID based on the teeth or the tooth that`s there. A forensic dentist could make that identification. If he made that identification, they`ve sent it for DNA for final confirmation.
LALAMA: Michael Griffith, international criminal defense attorney, what does this mean for the case? I mean, the investigation now in the Hague, but it happened in Aruba. We`ve got all kinds of international repercussions here. What next?
GRIFFITH: I hate to tell you this, but it means nothing and I`ll tell you why. Because -- you know, I`ve represented Americans in over 30 different countries, and in this particular case, there`s no direct causation of death. What`s his name, Mr. Van Der Sloot, all he said was that he was with her when she died and she was shaking, or whatever. There was no causal relationship that he did anything.
I don`t care whether they find the whole skeleton. There`s nothing that can compare the two. Nancy Grace affectionately calls me "barbecue" because I had the Tortola murder case, where on my client`s shirt, there was a red spot which turned out to be barbecue sauce, and my client was in prison for a year until they discovered this. You have to have the causation to show he had something to do with this, and we don`t have that yet.
LALAMA: And Alex Sanchez, you probably agree with that, that great -- I mean, it might give the family a little bit of peace, but it doesn`t solve the case in terms of who done it.
SANCHEZ: No, I mean, there`s always going to be some outstanding questions. Did she die somehow by her own volition or drugs or she drowned? But there`s something very troubling here, and that is the fact that I don`t see any police authorities in Aruba cordoning off that area and trying to search for additional bones. What`s going on here?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VAN DER SLOOT: I hope you can understand also it`s very hard for me to talk to you. It`s really not easy. I know you`re doing your best too - - I know you have a very good heart. I know that -- I know that for a fact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We hear a bone found.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A jawbone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bone material.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In an area where Natalee was seen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A new development in the search for Natalee Holloway, the discovery of a second bone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here`s what Van Der Sloot said happened. He left a bar with Natalee.
GRACE: Joran Van Der Sloot the last one to be with her there on the beach.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said he had sex with Natalee there, but then she started shaking horribly, and then he said, quote, "There was nothing."
TWITTY: I want to know what happened and I want to know why, Joran.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then he dumped her into the ocean.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A second bone was, in fact, collected on the grounds of a Westin Hotel in Aruba. A tourist apparently found it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): How do you know she`s dead, Joran?
VAN DER SLOOT (through translator): I just know.
NATALEE HOLLOWAY: I had the best time of my life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Good point. Did or did not authorities cordon off the area after the discovery of one or two bones now?
CASAREZ: No. Nothing has been cordoned off. The public is free to go there, walk, collect whatever they want. I want to make this point. It`s very important. The very -- almost the last time that he talked about his involvement in this case, actually confessing to at least taking the body and putting it in a swamp area of a bird sanctuary -- that is on tape. That is about one football field away from where the jawbone was found. I went there yesterday. And I got to tell everybody there is -- there are little tributaries that go from that swamp area into the ocean. It feeds into the ocean. It`s not just a swamp by itself.
LALAMA: Wow. That`s incredible. Dr. Michael Arnall, what significance does that have to you, what Jean just told us?
ARNALL: When a big storm like this occurs, if the tide goes up and uncovers some type of a buried body, the normal currents are going to carry those bones. The authorities should be looking at the normal currents in that area and going back upcurrent to find the source of these bones.
LALAMA: Ellen Stack, you and Adam, your nephew, found the second bone. Is it true that when you alerted the hotel, they said, Oh, you know, please don`t call police?
STACK: Yes, they did. They didn`t want to be investigated. They also told us that the managers weren`t going to be there until Monday morning and that we would have to wait.
LALAMA: Did you just get the sense that they weren`t all that interested, didn`t care, or didn`t want any publicity brought to their hotel, which relies on tourism?
STACK: Well, it could be that. But I also think they were just as shocked that the bone was still there after a week-and-a-half of us being there on vacation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VAN DER SLOOT: I promise you, if you give me your address, I will write to you.
TWITTY: OK. I will. I will. And this is your attorney`s number?
VAN DER SLOOT: (INAUDIBLE) But I really do promise you I will write to you. I owe you at least that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY`S MOTHER: I have not any hate in me, Joran. I have not. I`m here because, Joran, I know you want your life back.
JORAN VAN DER SLOOT, SUSPECT IN THE DISAPPEARANCE OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY CASE: I hope you can understand also that it`s very hard -- hard for me to talk to you.
TWITTY: You`re looking at spending the rest of your life in prison, Joran.
VAN DER SLOOT: It`s really not easy. I`m really doing my best to --
TWITTY: It`s not too late for you, Joran, to get your life back.
VAN DER SLOOT: I know you have a very good heart. I know that -- I know that for a fact.
TWITTY: I want to know what happened and I want to move on, Joran.
VAN DER SLOOT: I`ve made so many bad decisions and all for the wrong reasons.
TWITTY: Tell me what happened and let me take her home.
VAN DER SLOOT: I`ve told so many lies and other stuff just so I`d have money so I could go gambling.
TWITTY: If it was an accident, tell me.
VAN DER SLOOT: I should have learned from my mistake.
TWITTY: I`m begging you please, Joran, just, please.
VAN DER SLOOT: It is the least I owe you.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: I`m Pat Lalama sitting in for Nancy Grace.
You just saw excerpts from an extraordinary confrontation between Beth Holloway and Joran Van Der Sloot in a Peruvian prison where he sits now.
We`ll get back to that in a minute but let`s update everyone, Rupa Mikkilineni, on the status of Joran. He`s in prison right now because of a whole different case, the death of Stephany Flores that he`s been charged with.
Now I understand that the bone of contention right now is a confession he allegedly -- or did give in that case and whether that`s admissible. Does that still stand?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That does still stand, Pat. And you know what, it`s so typical of Joran Van Der Sloot. In the last five years he has made a slew of confessions including in the Stephany Flores case. And he has each time recanted each confession. We`re talking about five or six confessions at this time.
LALAMA: Right.
MIKKILINENI: Considering both the Holloway case and the Flores case.
LALAMA: Yes. You bring up such a great point.
Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, part of his game is the torment, the absolute torment of toying with people. That he has information and somebody wants it and it keeps -- it gives him a sense of purpose, a reason to be alive from what I can see.
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Which is characteristic of psychopaths. It`s an all about power, who`s pulling the strings, who`s in control. And in this compelling and ultimately sad interview with Beth -- here`s a woman who`s desperately pleading, talking to this guy as if he was a normal person and he`s not.
He`s playing her. He speaks at a monotone. His eyes are darting all over the place and his conversation just keeps coming back to him. Nothing to do with the loss of Natalee or her pain.
LALAMA: Absolutely not.
Pam Hayes, defense attorney. You know, he -- she might as well be talking to someone who is -- I mean, he`s clearly reveling and not giving her any information back, but pretending to be oh-so concerned.
PAM HAYES, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I don`t know what his problem is because I can`t empathize with a sociopath. But you know, just as a mother and trying to empathize with her, she doesn`t get who he is.
You know, she just doesn`t understand that he will never tell anyone about Natalee because that is his only ace that he thinks he`s going to be able to use to get himself out of this jam in Peru.
And it`s just really unfortunate. It breaks my heart into so many pieces to see her down there trying to solve this issue. She`s never going to get an answer from him.
LALAMA: Let`s listen to another sound bite -- sound clip from that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TWITTY: I don`t really understand what this means, but you know, I think that you might and I just wanted to get face to face with you and, you know, I feel like when I go back in time, Joran, you know, five years ago and thinking, you know, I felt like -- I felt like you didn`t listen to me then and I wanted to just -- let`s -- you know tell me what happened and let me take her home.
VAN DER SLOOT: That`s always been my problem. I never listened to anyone who`s meant well for me. I`ve always done what I, myself, wanted, or what I, myself, thought was best and even after I should have learned from my mistakes.
Still always the same stuff. I`ve had a lot of time here also to think about stuff. And I really do -- I really do want to write you. I just need some time to think about how -- what I want to say.
TWITTY: OK. And I --
VAN DER SLOOT: And I want to say -- I would appreciate it if you would give me --
TWITTY: I will. I will. And I -- I really -- you know why I`m here.
VAN DER SLOOT: I do know why you`re here.
TWITTY: I want to know answers and I want to know what happened.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Ron Shindel, you know, he might as well be looking at her saying blah, blah, blah, because he has no intention of helping her out.
You`ve dealt with a plethora of crime victims in your life. Can you understand what she`s trying to get at with him?
RON SHINDEL, FORMER NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Some piece of information that`s going to give her closure. She wants to find this. She`s going to follow this all the way on every lead she possibly can have. And I can understand from a parent`s point of view that you`d want to do that.
The problem is, with Van Der Sloot, he`s a psychopath and he`s not going to give her anything and he`s playing with her as he`s doing this and he`s going to use this for all the jollies he can get.
LALAMA: Michael Griffith, international criminal defense attorney. One of the things that concerns me, I mean certainly feel for her. She is so desperate. But there`s some question about how she got in there and what the procedure was and whether it was kosher or not kosher the way that it was conducted with the Dutch journalist.
Now couldn`t that compromise the extortion case against him? Here`s a guy who tried to get 25 grand out of her because he promised to give her information about Natalee, turns out he was just extorting her.
Why would she want to jeopardize -- I understand her pain, but why would she jeopardize that?
MICHAEL GRIFFITH, INTERNATIONAL LAW ATTORNEY/CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY (via phone): Boy, are you reading my mind You beat me to the punch because if you didn`t say that, I was going to say it.
This is a colossal blunder. This is such bad judgment on behalf of Mrs. Holloway. Mrs. Holloway is a complainant and a witness in a federal extortion case in Alabama. OK? And now here she is. She then goes into a jail in a foreign country when she confronts the witness, the defendant in the case, possibly with the help or the coercion of Peter Van De Vries who is the Dutch journalist who may be paying part of their fees.
I don`t know what this woman was thinking about. But this was such terrible judgment, I can`t tell you. At this point the only charge that they could possibly bring against Joran is the illegal disposition of a dead position which at this point is probably even a misdemeanor or a low felony with no mandatory jail time.
LALAMA: Alex Sanchez, I absolutely do not want to be hard on Beth Holloway in any way, and I`m not, but I mean, I would just think that somebody had to say, Beth, don`t do that. Don`t go talk to this man.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I disagree with my fellow attorney here. I don`t see anything wrong with her going there and confronting him. He may have very well made a confession on national television concerning this murder and he still may make a confession.
And regarding that extortion case, that`s a minor side issue. No one else is advocating for her. She`s got to advocate for herself. The Dutch authorities are doing nothing. Let her keep fighting on.
LALAMA: Well -- all right, that`s a very good argument, and let`s turn our attention just for a quick second to our callers who have been waiting and waiting to ask wonderful questions I`m sure.
Mauri in Idaho. Good evening, what is your question?
MAURI, CALLER FROM IDAHO: First I have a comment.
LALAMA: OK.
MAURI: I want to applaud Beth Twitty for her utter and total restraint sitting across the table from that man. Her deportment was just unbelievable.
LALAMA: Yes. Absolutely.
MAURI: And my question is, considering how shabbily she was treated by the Aruban authorities when Natalee went missing, now that they may indeed have found some of Natalee`s remains, are they going to put this woman through even more and give her a hard time of getting back what might be the only portion of her child she`ll ever find?
LALAMA: Jean Casarez, would you like to respond to that? You know the family, you know Aruba, you know the government. How are they going to treat her?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Well, first of all, I think that this would have to be classified as evidence. So I don`t think that she would be able to take those remains.
I think they would have to look at them and forensically allow the defense to look at them if someone was charged. So I think it`s a long road to that, but I think the fact that they took these jawbones to The Hague. That they flew them personally there, this shows they`re serious about solving at least the issue of whether these are human and whose jawbone remains they are.
LALAMA: Extraordinary.
Rupa Mikkilineni, what do we know about Joran right now? What`s his life like? What are his conditions? People said he wouldn`t survive prison.
MIKKILINENI: Right. Well, we know that Stephany Flores` father has come out and said that he is living like a king behind bars. And of course we`ve got these photographs from various media outlets showing Joran Van Der Sloot having the time of his life partying, playing poker, drinking beer.
Now what I can tell you, Pat, is I did speak with Van Der Sloot`s mother, Anita, today. She did say she has not been in touch with her son and that she has not visited him.
LALAMA: Very interesting.
To tonight`s case alert. The desperate search for a 15-year-old girl. Allegedly taken by a convicted child sex predator. Jean Marie Berlinghoff last seen November 10th at her Redding home. Now believed to be with her 44-year-old uncle, Charles Berlinghoff, previously convicted of child molestation.
A felony arrest warrant issued for Charles Berlinghoff. The California Highway Patrol has not denied putting out an Amber alert. The teen`s disappearance, though, does not fit the criteria. CHP has issued an endangered missing advisory for Jean Marie Berlinghoff. She`s 5`3", 120 pounds with black hair and blue eyes.
Any information you may have please call the Shasta County Sheriff`s Office, 530-245-6025.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Young people just don`t die from drinking too much.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Bone fragment found of on an Aruban beach. Could this be the key to solving the mystery of Natalee Holloway`s disappearance?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: In interviews, Van Der Sloot denied accusations of rape and murder.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He also says I haven`t lost a night`s sleep over this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has no remorse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Joran lied a couple of times, established lies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s tried to avoid the justice system.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was just not moving anymore.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: No history of epilepsy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She wasn`t thinking anymore.
GRACE: No history that she had used drugs that night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And so I -- I thought she must be dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something`s wrong here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then they dumped her into the ocean.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A total disregard for anyone else except for himself.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, sitting in for Nancy Grace.
Dr. Michael Arnall, I don`t want to make this a betting game, but what kind of certainty do you think we might have in terms of this actually being Natalee Holloway`s bones?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I think the fact they sent it to The Hague suggests that they`re under the impression these are her bones.
LALAMA: Ellen Stack, you and your nephew found the second bone. What`s it like being in the middle of an international criminal investigation? Never imagined that, did you?
ELLEN STACK, FOUND POSSIBLE SECOND BONE ON ARUBAN BEACH: No, we surely didn`t. We just hope the family has some peace. It`s been tough for everybody. The whole country is, you know, thinking of them all the time.
LALAMA: And Adam, let me ask you very quickly. Would you like to believe that perhaps you`ve had some hand in helping solve this?
ADAM MARKMANN, FOUND POSSIBLE SECOND BONE ON ARUBAN BEACH: Yes.
LALAMA: Well, let`s hope -- let`s hope that you do.
I want to get back to Joran Van Der Sloot because he has a number of things on his plate. One is Natalee Holloway. The other is Stephany Flores, and the other, of course, is the extortion case.
Now, Alex Sanchez, if this turns out to be bones belonging to Natalee and let`s say they could actually attach them somehow, what case takes precedence?
SANCHEZ: Obviously a murder case takes precedence. You know this extortion --
LALAMA: But there`s also the Stephany Flores case.
SANCHEZ: The Stephany Flores case right now takes precedence because he`s in Peru and he`s in a Peru jail and he`s currently being prosecuted. He`s not being prosecuted for the case in Aruba. But if they determine that the bone is her jaw he could be indicted for that case and after he serves his time in Peru he could be brought back to Aruba to serve time.
And the extortion case, forget about the extortion case. That`s nonsense. Nobody really cares about that. Concentrate on the murder cases.
LALAMA: Pam Hayes, that confession in the Stephany Flores case, is that going to hold up?
HAYES: I would think so. You know they have opposite presumption than we do. They believe in guilt, prove your innocence. So he`s in a big trouble in Peru. So I think it will hold up.
I mean, it seems pretty clear even if they didn`t have the confession, those circumstantial evidence that they can make their case, that`s not the problem. The problem is Natalee`s case. You know?
And I really think this is a really big break, but you know, the Aruban authorities have got to maintain their crime scene. There`s been no excavation here. They should have been doing that as soon as they found that jawbone to find out if there`s anything else.
And then the young man found something else. I mean, they should just have it cordoned off and start digging.
LALAMA: Yes.
HAYES: So I`m not worried about the Peruvian case. That`s a lock.
LALAMA: Exactly.
Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, we were debating, is he really sick, Joran Van Der Sloot or is he a sociopath? I mean he seems to know exactly what he`s doing so there`s that fine line between what`s insanity and what`s not.
Here`s my question. Does he have any guilt? He clearly knows the difference between right and wrong. Does he feel guilt when he`s sitting in that Peruvian prison?
SAUNDERS: No, he doesn`t. And psychopaths do not. And psychopaths aren`t mentally ill. It`s a personality disorder, not a mental illness. And he has no capacity for empathy, to feel or experience what other people do, nor does he have any interest in it. Therefore he has no guilt..
LALAMA: Another caller. Please Ann in Illinois. Good evening, Ann. Your question?
ANN, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi, Pat. One of my questions kind of got answered in the effect of wondering if they had started any kind of digging on the beach. But I guess my question would be, is it possible that they`re not digging because this potentially isn`t a human jawbone?
And on the flip side of that, if it were a human jawbone, what is the possibility if they dig that there would be any type of potential forensic evidence available still?
LALAMA: Michael Griffith, international criminal defense attorney. At the risk of bashing Aruba, doesn`t sound to me like they really care all that much.
GRIFFITH: Come on. Aruba to The Netherlands is like Saint Croix, you know, to the United States. But may I say, I take umbrage with my colleague and I`ve respected Mr. Sanchez`s TV appearances over the years. But let me tell you something. Right now there is an extortion case in Alabama. It`s a federal extortion case. And he`s facing a lot of years in jail.
There is no criminal proceeding right now in Aruba, so precedence would be taken if the U.S. files a warrant with the extortion case in Alabama because that`s where the charges are presently pending.
There may never be any murder cases in Aruba. So with all due respect to my friend, Mr. Sanchez, I would take him out for a wonderful glass of wine in New York the next time I see him, and we can banter this together. OK?
LALAMA: But what I`m asking -- let me ask you this, Alex, do you feel that the Aruban government just isn`t really knocking itself out to get answers?
SANCHEZ: The Aruban authorities just want this case to go away. Don`t you understand? They`re concerned about money and tourism. They`re not concerned about resolving this case.
Otherwise, they would have done the minimal investigation. Go there, cordon off the area, start excavating and maybe you`ll uncover further evidence in this case.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A piece of jawbone washes up on a beach in Aruba near the area where Natalee Holloway was last seen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a major break, if, in fact, it`s her tooth.
TWITTY: I wanted to let`s just -- tell me what happened and let me take her home.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Tonight -- oh, I`m sorry. Forgive me. We have much more to talk about before we end this show.
Rupa Mikkilineni, let`s talk about right now this issue of the cordoning off. Please define for us exactly what happened.
MIKKILINENI: Sure. When the jawbone was first discovered on the 12th, it was 7:00 p.m. on a Friday evening. Police investigators once it was reported that they obtained the jawbone, they went straight out to that beach area, cordoned off the area, a certain radius around where the jawbone was found on the beach, and dug all day Saturday, the very next day, Pat.
And then the following day, Sunday, they were on an airplane with two police officers straight to Holland to basically send this to the forensic lab. They acted very quickly. So on the contrary, you know, what`s been - - you know, said on the show, I think that since the new prosecutor Peter Blanken has been on board, they have been very determined, actually, to solve the Natalee Holloway case.
LALAMA: Jean Casarez, you`ve got the last word tonight. What is Joran Van Der Sloot`s condition? Is he by himself? Is he truly being pampered?
CASAREZ: Well, he is in protective custody. He`s there for his own protection, just like we do in this country. But his condition -- his attorney did tell him that they had found a jawbone and it was being forensically tested in The Hague, so he does know what`s going on here in his home country.
LALAMA: But Jean, is it true that he is pampered, that he`s buddied up to some, you know, mobster?
CASAREZ: We`ve seen the pictures. We`ve seen him with arms around people. But Castro-Castro is different from our penal system. They have a lot of freedoms at that institution, more freedoms than in the U.S.
LALAMA: Unbelievable. Great job, everyone.
Tonight, let`s stop to remember Army Private 1st Class Nate Detample, from (INAUDIBLE) Township, Pennsylvania, killed in Iraq. He was awarded several medals including the Bronze Star and Purple Heart.
A college student studying criminal justice. He was a proud Eagle Scout who loved watching the Philadelphia Eagles with his family and listening to country music. He would always sign his letters from Iraq, "Rock Steady." His motto, freedom isn`t free.
He leaves behind his parents Glen and Kim, sister Vicky and brother -- brother who is also in the army currently serving abroad.
Nate Detample, American hero.
Thank you to all of our guests. And to you at home for being with us. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. Until then, have a good night, everybody.
And Nancy, thank you always for the opportunity. Have a wonderful week, a great Thanksgiving. Let`s all count our blessings.
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