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Nancy Grace
Ohio Family Stabbed, Dismembered, Stuffed in a Hollow Tree
Aired November 24, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Breaking news tonight out of the Ohio suburbs. A 13-year-old girl, bound and gagged, rescued from the basement of a home. The bodies of her mother, 11-year-old brother and family friend found in dense woods, stuffed inside a hollow tree. Tonight, just released, we have the autopsy report revealing bone-chilling details about the bloody crime scene and the gruesome murders of two mothers and an 11- year-old little boy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bodies were in trash bags, and the trash bags were inside of the hollow tree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He brought the bodies here, hauled them up to the very top. Inside, there`s a hollow hole. From there, he dropped them down to the base.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were found in trash bags inside a hollow tree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news tonight in the search for a missing Ohio family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The discovery of these bodies was as a result of information provided by Matthew Hoffman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The man suspected of kidnapping a 13-year-old Ohio girl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three bodies just found in a wooded area.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Matthew Hoffman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Led police to the bodies of a brother, mother and a family friend.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: A tree trunk this big? How are you going to put three bodies in there?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: And tonight, a beautiful 20-year-old co-ed leaves her Pennsylvania campus and heads home to spend time with family for Thanksgiving. But before that family sits down to Thanksgiving dinner, the junior ballet dancer vanishes without a trace. What happened to 20-year- old Jenni Watson?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s been several days since anyone has seen or heard from 20-year-old Jenni-Lyn Watson.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is very uncharacteristic for her to not have contact with any friends, especially her family. She just came home to be with her family for the holiday.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The first ground searches began Tuesday after days of aerial searches around Watson`s home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The timeline is not in our favor. The quicker we can locate Jenni-Lyn and bring her home, the better the chance of having her home alive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deputies say Watson`s phone records showed the cell phone was in the vicinity of their search. It has been off since Watson`s family reported her missing Friday, and therefore, it can`t be used to track her current location.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re still holding onto hope.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deputies are working with the Erie, Pennsylvania, and Mercyhurst College`s police departments to get help across state lines looking for Watson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. We go live to Ohio and a disturbing autopsy report detailing the murders of two mothers and an 11-year-old little boy. For the very latest, let`s go straight out to Phil Trexler, reporter with "The Akron Beacon Journal." Phil, you know, just when you think you`ve just about heard the most heinous imaginable, this is quite something to have to talk about the night before Thanksgiving.
PHIL TREXLER, "AKRON BEACON JOURNAL" (via telephone): Yes. It`s really, really sad, Pat. Just the -- you know, not only do you have three innocent victims here, four innocent victims, but you have just a brutal, brutal attack. What the coroner has found is that the three victims -- Tina Herrmann, 32, her 11-year-old son, Kody, and her friend, Stephanie Sprang, 41 -- were brutally stabbed to death inside of the Herrmann residence. And apparently, that is where the 13-year-old Sarah Maynard was abducted.
And this happened, you know, two weeks ago, and it`s just still reeling in the Mt. Vernon town in Ohio. It`s just been a tragic, tragic time. Of course, it`s being compounded by the fact that this has occurred during a holiday season.
LALAMA: Yes, and just a few miles from my home town, so it hits hard for me, too. David Lohr, AOL news, more details about this autopsy. I mean, apparently, there was so much blood. What can you tell us about what`s in this report?
DAVID LOHR, AOL NEWS: Well, according to the family members, there was so much blood inside the home, they`ve actually had to gut several of the rooms. The autopsy conducted by the coroner showed they died of multiple stab wounds. And after they were dead, they were dismembered.
LALAMA: You know, I have to ask Detective Lieutenant Steve Rogers, Nutley, New Jersey, PD, former member, FBI joint terrorism task force -- what does it say to you, this level of violence?
DET. LT. STEVEN ROGERS, NUTLEY NJ POLICE DEPARTMENT: This was one angry killer. And I`ve got to tell you, a lot of these murders such as this center around, probably, in most cases, maybe not in this case, spurned lover, maybe wanted a relationship, had an obsession. But boy, this was one angry killer.
LALAMA: Well, yes, and before we go into more details about this, Phil Trexler, back to you for a moment. We have one little girl who he bound and gagged, and she`s all right. And she was kept in his house, I believe. And then the other three. Any motive? Any -- the other three, of course, killed and dismembered. What is the motive? Do police have any clue here?
TREXLER: I think the police have a great idea as to what occurred, but in order to protect the integrity of the case, they`ve remained pretty tight-lipped. The general assumption, however, among the media is that the three people who were killed were killed as a means for him to satisfy some sadistic infatuation with this 13-year-old girl.
Obviously, she`s alive for a reason. She`s being held captive in his own home while he`s dismembering their bodies, stuffing them in garbage bags and then shoving them down a tree. The reason everyone is expecting to be brought out at some point in the trial is that this was done -- these people died in order for him to be satisfied to have this young 13-year-old girl captive in his own home.
LALAMA: Unbelievable. And in fact, I believe he told his mother that when police finally raided his home, he was relieved because the little girl, Sarah Maynard, 13, would be OK. So make sense out of that.
Howard Oliver, former deputy medical examiner, forensic pathologist, I`m going to say a word to you and you`re going to tell us what it means -- exsanguination. That was the term used in the report. What does that mean?
HOWARD OLIVER, FMR. DPTY. MEDICAL EXAMINER: Exsanguination is a medical term that simply means that the victims bled to death.
LALAMA: So the stab wounds were multiple from the chest cavity. They bled to death. What does it mean to you that there was so much blood in the house that some of the rooms had to be gutted?
OLIVER: It could mean two things, number one, that some of the stab wounds were to arteries, which have, while the victim was alive and has a great deal of pressure, so the blood would have spurted all over the room. And if he did any hacking on the bodies afterwards, then you`d also have splatter marks from the instrument he used to hack with.
LALAMA: Deputy Rogers, here`s a man who`s 6-foot-1, 185 pounds. He`s taken down two women and a young boy. Chances are that -- we were talking about this earlier, how he managed to do that. Chances are, one came home, then another came home, then another? Is that how you see it?
ROGERS: Well, it`s highly possible. And it could have been some sort of a struggle, too. Look, I`m sure they didn`t just stand there and get stabbed repeatedly and drop dead immediately. It could have been a struggle. Yes, he probably got some joy out of this, unfortunately, if it had a lot to do with a sadistic type motive, and just waited for them to come home.
LALAMA: David Lohr, AOL News, was there any sign of sexual assault?
LOHR: No, there was no sign of sexual assault on any of the deceased victims. As far as the teenage girl goes, authorities aren`t saying because she`s a juvenile.
LALAMA: Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, I just want to go to you very quickly. You know, this is a level of violence that`s really hard for any of us to imagine. Put in it some perspective for us. I mean, murder is murder, but the way -- the dismemberment. He killed the dog. He stuffed the dog in the tree the bodies. It was methodical. He had tarps and all kinds of tools. He thought this through.
LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, as was said earlier, this is a level of rage that is beyond most people`s ability to conceive of. It`s so savage and so up close and personal. This is different than killing with a gun. To dismember someone after they`re already dead is such uncontained rage, it`s so psychotic, it`s almost unthinkable.
LALAMA: We`re going go back to a lot of this, the details. But John Burris, defense attorney, I just have to ask you, you know, I`m thinking, you know, it`s your job And your duty to, you know, represent people who need to be represented. But I know you don`t know all the details, what motivated this person to do what he allegedly did, but does it seem like a slam-dunk insanity to you?
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it certainly has all the earmarks of it. It looks to me like there`s -- you know, I think the psychologist just said it. He obviously had a psychotic break of some kind. That doesn`t excuse it totally. I mean, he`s not going to walk away from this. But you know, he might be just mentally insane and that might be the defense that has to be played out. That`s the only chance he has.
You do have this question of, can you be so mentally insane and go through all these different brutal acts? I think the answer is yes. You can. I mean, you can be acting out and engaged in all these horrible, horrible acts and still be operating within the framework of an insane person, or a psychotic type person. I don`t know that he`s going to meet the McNaughton test between right or wrong, but that doesn`t mean he`s not mentally incompetent. And so some real questions that have to be -- from a defense point of view, you`ve got to work this angle. That`s the only hope you have. Otherwise, you`re looking at the death chair clear.
LALAMA: Right. Right. And Alan Ripka, also defense attorney, I mean, he -- he was to have a preliminary hearing, I believe, yesterday. They waived that. Why would his attorney decide to do that?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, his attorney knew that the prosecution had at least enough evidence to go forward. So to go through this preliminary hearing would be a waste. Some things may come out that they don`t want to develop and have developed. So bypass that stage, since it`s going to happen anyway, and move forward and try to mount a defense.
LALAMA: And Howard Oliver, forensic pathologist, we`re still waiting on other tests that aren`t going to be finished for six to eight weeks, toxicology, et cetera. What can we glean from those tests? What do we need to know from those test that will help us understand this case?
OLIVER: Well, you put the perpetrator`s DNA at the scene of the crime. There will be swabs, and so forth, taken from the orifices of the victims to check against his DNA, and also from the girl, the live girl`s body. You need to connect his DNA with her body, also.
LALAMA: Well, forgive me for what might seem like morbid curiosity, but if a body is dismembered, can you glean time of death?
OLIVER: You may be able to, but it`s not likely.
LALAMA: And why not?
OLIVER: Well, the tissues -- the tissues have bled out. The -- you know, the blood is drained from the body. The tissues have also started to autolyze because they`ve been dismembered. That is, they`ve started to degrade faster than they would normally.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This investigation took a major turn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was really the worst possible outcome.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That we have discovered and recovered the remains of Kody Maynard, Stephanie Sprang and Tina Herrmann.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Evidence suggests the accused killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Matthew Hoffman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was calculated in his attempt to hide the crime.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Three dead bodies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Horrendous disposal method.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The remains were not intact when they were recovered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s here they found the bodies of Tina Herrmann, Stephanie Sprang and Kody Maynard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stuffed in a hollow tree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here`s a better look at the hole. It`s wide enough to place a body down, but there were three bodies that ultimately lodged in the base.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have to, unfortunately, dismember every single body.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators had to cut a hole at the bottom to get them out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Something made the accused killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Matthew Hoffman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Decide to reveal what he went to great lengths to hide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Phil Trexler, reporter, "Akron Beacon Journal," we know that Matthew Hoffman is on suicide watch. Do we have any details? I know he`s being monitored -- I think they look at him every 10 minutes or so. Tell us about that.
TREXLER: Yes. When he first went in, Part, arrested on a Sunday, according to some of the logs that have been reported by "The Columbus Dispatch," +he was despondent. He was actually at one point seen crying in his cell. He`s certainly probably the most despised inmate at the county jail at this moment.
He`s had meetings with his attorneys, and he, of course, had that emotional meeting with his mother, which subsequently led to him telling his attorney where the bodies of these three people could be found. He is on a suicide watch. They`re checking on him every 10 minutes. It`s an ongoing process, but it`s probably a sobering moment, one would hope, for Matthew Hoffman.
LALAMA: Leslie Austin, psychotherapist, you think of someone like a Richard Ramirez, who I`m sure never shed a tear over anything he did. But this guy is crying.
AUSTIN: Yes.
LALAMA: Anything we can glean from that?
AUSTIN: Well, yes. I think there`s a whole pile-up of things that he`s upset about, most prominently that he knows his life is over, no matter what. He`s in jail. He knows that they know he did certain things. He`s never going to get out. So he`s probably mourning his own life. He may feel some remorse and guilt now that he`s gotten out of the state he was in when he committed the murders. He may regret what he did terribly. It`s way too late for that. But I`m sure he just regrets his whole life right now.
LALAMA: Interesting. And you know, John Burris, he led authorities to that tree. I`m going to guess that he`s getting some sort of a deal out of that.
BURRIS: Well, you would think so. I mean, he`s had a lawyer involved in it. He`s had his mother involved. He had a lawyer (INAUDIBLE) went to the DA and tried to get some kind of point (ph) about it. And the only deal that could possibly be made is that you don`t get -- they don`t ask for the death penalty.
Other than that, it would be impossible for him to get any kind of real deal that makes any sense because the crime is too horrible. At best, you could say to the family victims that we will not give them death chair because he, in fact, led us to the bodies, so that the families can have a respectful burial. That happens often, and so I can imagine that happening in this case. If it didn`t happen, I would suspect the lawyer didn`t make the kind of deal he could have made at the outset.
LALAMA: Alan Ripka, also defense attorney, it`s unclear whether he confessed or not at this point. But if this were your guy, what kind of -- what would you be doing for him at this point?
RIPKA: Well, if he has not confessed and there is no evidence that actually connects him to the actual murders, and all we have is him leading them to the bodies through his attorney, that`s where I`d leave it. You`d wait to see what the authorities have. If they come up with no evidence, remember, it`s their burden to prove that he murdered these people. And I`d let them have a go at it.
LALAMA: Now, I understand, David Lohr, AOL News, at this point, he`s only charged with kidnapping, correct?
LOHR: Yes, that`s correct. He`s being held on a $1 million bond for kidnapping. They`re going to have to do an indictment to charge him with murder. That`s something the district attorney expects to do in the next four to six weeks.
LALAMA: And also, Phil Trexler, it`s a million dollars cash bail. He can`t do a 10 percent deal.
TREXLER: No, it is, it`s a million dollars cash. And obviously, this guy doesn`t have the resources probably even to post the 10 percent bond. But as it is now, it`s a cash bond and he...
LALAMA: And he -- oh, I`m sorry. Go ahead.
TREXLER: No, he`s going to stay there throughout this process, I`m sure.
LALAMA: And isn`t it true that, you know, he was convicted of arson in another state and is supposed to be paying $2 million restitution for that?
TREXLER: Yes, that`s right. He served -- he served about six years in prison out in Colorado for an arson case. He was ordered to pay restitution of $2 million. He`d paid about $4,800 of that restitution. Some of the stories that are trickling out about his lifestyle is that he was kind of a nomad, wandering around, and more of an outdoorsman type and that leads to the conclusion about where he chose to store the bodies.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Each body was stuffed in a garbage bag.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bone-chilling details.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Blood was found. A lot of blood was found.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A murder scene straight out of a horror movie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After they`d been killed with a rope, hoisted up, and then they were hurled into a hollow tree.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stuffed in a hollow tree.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have to, unfortunately, dismember every single body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One by one by one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This individual is clearly a psychopath.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Absolutely shocking. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. I want to take some time to talk about 13-year-old Sarah Maynard, who miraculously survived all this. Who knows why? David Lohr, she had to bury her family this week, did she not?
LOHR: Yes, that`s correct. And you know, the interesting thing about it is, according to the authorities, she`s the hero in this. You know, she`s taking this in stride, but she`s getting through it. And you know, that`s the fortunate thing, if there is in all of this.
LALAMA: And Detective Lieutenant Steve Rogers, her testimony -- I mean, she`s really key in terms of trying to understand some sort of motive to all of this. How do you deal with a young person in this kind of...
ROGERS: Well, I can tell you, Pat, that law enforcement has very, very good interviewers when it comes to juveniles. They`re very sensitive to, especially an individual victim like this who was such traumatized. But she is key. They will be sensitive, and she`s going to give law enforcement, I believe, the information they`ll need to successfully prosecute this individual.
LALAMA: Oh, bless this child. Leslie Austin, I cannot imagine -- I mean, I`m just hoping to high heaven that there are people around her helping her in every possible way. But I wonder about this. And I hope I`m not premature. I hope this doesn`t happen, but will there be possibly guilt that she survived and her brother did not, her mother did not, her family friend did not?
AUSTIN: Oh, sure. Yes, I`m sure there will be some. If she`s getting good support, and hopefully, getting really good counseling, she has a good chance at having a good life, a normal life. She`ll have the capacity to have good times and be happy. But she`ll never be the same. And survivor`s guilt is part of what she`ll need to deal with. For whatever reasons, I hope she has some spiritual orientation. She`ll figure out for herself why it`s important that she`s still here and what good she can do, and that`ll help propel her into a much better future.
LALAMA: Unbelievable. Alan Ripka, I got to believe, you know, from a defense attorney`s perspective, you dread having to deal with a minor in a case like this, correct?
RIPKA: Oh, it`s unbelievable. I mean, if this young woman came to court, you`d be dead. It`s over. Death penalty galore.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The investigators received information from Matthew Hoffman upon the location of where the three victims were eventually found.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This is a trail that Hoffman likely drove his vehicle down. Now when he reached the end right here, it goes into an open field. And it`s at this point when he made the decision where to dump the bodies.
According to investigators, it was right over there in that wooded area.
So we walked another 100 yards to find the spot. So this is it. The entrance into the woods. Now apparently Hoffman told investigators that about 100 feet in, he took the bodies and dumped them in a hollow tree.
Let me show you.
It`s dense woods and a vehicle could not drive in here so investigators are saying he dragged the bodies to this tree. Now understand Hoffman was an experienced tree trimmer who had his own harnesses. So investigators believe he brought the bodies here, hauled them to the very top. Inside there is a hollow hole. From there he dropped them down to the base.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace.
Something very unusual happened on Monday, Phil Trexler, and that has to do with a fire at the home where the murders occurred?
PHIL TREXLER, REPORTER, AKRON BEACON JOURNAL: Yes. It is very unusual, Pat. The small fire out on the front porch of the Hermann household. Today the state fire marshal has ruled the cause to be an arson.
The damage, like I said, was very minimal but it is still kind of curious as to what could be the possible motive here or who may have done it. The investigators are releasing zero information in regard to that. All they will say is that it was an arson and that it occurred at the victims` home where they were murdered.
LALAMA: Right. And you know he has that history of burning down a condominium.
TREXLER: Yes.
LALAMA: But he`s -- he`s also behind bars. So Detective Lieutenant Steve Rogers, any hunch that it`s just some wacko trying to, you know, muck up the investigative works here?
DET. LT. STEVE ROGERS, NUTLEY, NEW JERSEY, POLICE DEPARTMENT: Most likely that`s what it is. It`s somebody who`s trying to mess thing up.
But I`ve got to tell you, some of the things law enforcement are going to look into, and the questions they`re going to ask is, is this the first time? Are they going to be reopening a lot of homicide cases with similar methodologies and they`re going to be asking about those cases?
And, you know, one never knows what`s going to come up as a result of this -- obviously, the capture of this criminal.
LALAMA: Absolutely.
Howard Oliver, forensic pathologist. Getting back to the details of this report. Is there anyway to tell if the victims did try to put up a fight against this monster?
HOWARD OLIVER, FMR. DEPUTY MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: There might be some markings on the furniture or the walls of the building in which they lived. There may be some scrapings under the finger nails or some trauma to the body that may indicate that they put up a struggle.
LALAMA: I want to go to our callers. Bridget in Michigan. Good evening, Bridget. Question?
BRIDGET, CALLER FROM MICHIGAN: Hi. Hello?
LALAMA: Hello.
BRIDGET: Hi.
LALAMA: Go ahead, Bridget.
BRIDGET: My question is, is that -- is this maybe a location where he has spent some time? I mean how did he know about the hole in the top of the tree? Maybe with a hunting blind, maybe? My dad does a lot of hunting and he has a lot of blinds.
LALAMA: Well -- we do know, David Lohr, AOL News, that he is an avid outdoorsman, correct?
DAVID LOHR, AOL NEWS: Yes. That`s correct. And you know, as it was stated earlier, you know, according to his friends, he was kind of like a nomad. He spend a lot of time in the woods lately. He liked to play in trees and stuff. So chances are he`d probably been to this area before and was probably familiar with it, because it seems like the odds would be against him just walking out there and stumbling upon this.
LALAMA: Right. To say, oh, gee, I think I`ll take this particular tree at this particular time.
John Burris, defense attorney, why can`t they just charge him? Why do we need a grand jury?
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you either have to do an information or a preliminary hearing or a grand jury.
LALAMA: Right.
BURRIS: They chose not to do a preliminary hearing and the defendant agreed to it as well. So by doing a grand jury, you have to have some evidence that you have -- that gives forth an indictment. That`s probably statutory in the particular state.
But you have to have an indictment on information like we have in California. So if you don`t do the preliminary hearing, you do the grand jury.
Now the grand jury affords you -- allows you to put on some evidence without having it being cross-examined, which you would have at a preliminary hearing.
LALAMA: Right.
BURRIS: There`s minimal evidence but it`s just enough to say that the crime has been committed and that person probably did it. And it doesn`t subject the witness -- in this case, the 13-year-old -- to any form of cross-examination.
So -- and that way is -- it`s the kind of procedure that is followed all in the federal court and in some state courts. Typically you would have a preliminary hearing. But here he waived that and the prosecution -- grand jury.
LALAMA: And it tends -- it has a secretive aspect to it, does it not?
BURRIS: It`s very secretive.
LALAMA: I mean that helps the prosecution. Yes.
BURRIS: Absolutely. It`s very secretive in the sense that there is no examination. The defense counsel is not allowed to be part of it. Essentially the prosecution puts on its witness, or a witness who tells the story.
The grand jury which is composed of people from the community will say it`s a true bill, meaning there`s an indictment or not and based upon the crime. This case is only the child is involved so they have that particular indictment.
But at the end of the day, this testimony will be given to the defendant. He will have that information for purposes of possible impeachment of the witness at some later time. But he gets it but he just doesn`t get it now.
LALAMA: Exactly.
Alan Ripka, defense attorney, I wonder, you know, what`s next for him. We know that he`s been charged with just kidnapping at this point but I envision a whole host of pending charges.
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, Pat, I`ve been listening and I have a feeling that a good defense may be that there`s someone else involved. In fact, this arson in front of the house leads me to believe that`s a possibility.
Killing three people with multiple stab wounds, them not running off or being able to defend themselves, being able to take all these bodies into the woods, sounds like somebody else is involved. And the defense --
LALAMA: Very interesting.
RIPKA: -- can gear off with that being a part of this defense.
LALAMA: Wow. Hey, Detective Rogers, what do you think about another person involved in this?
ROGERS: Well, I can tell you, I like an attorney right now. Usually we`re on the opposite side of the agreement. But he`s right. And what was going through my mind is, is there someone else involved? Especially when you see the size of that tree. He had to get the body parts up the tree and the arson.
This defense attorney may have nailed it. Very good.
LALAMA: But wait a minute, wait a minute. I`m -- motive. Let`s talk about a motive. I mean there just simply is no reason to kill these people. As far as we know, he didn`t know them. There was no vendetta. They hadn`t upset him in any way.
Phil Trexler, do cops think there might be a second person involved?
TREXLER: If they do, they`re not saying so. And I`ll tell you what, people who kill in this sort of fashion, people who, you know, allegedly show this demented type of behavior, usually act alone. They usually hoard their victims, so to speak.
And that appears to be what he was doing with young Sarah. But I think it would be very unusual for someone of this mental state to have an accomplice.
LALAMA: Hey, let`s talk with that mental state for a second. I have a whole list of things here that I find very, very interesting. For instance, we told you once before, he found a squirrel in his attic and fried and ate it. He does back flips extemporaneously on top of picnic tables for no good reasons.
During a city parade once, he went back and forth across the parade in the undercarriage of a truck. And he has this impassioned love of trees.
Leslie Austin, take me somewhere with this.
DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, to use the word eccentric is a welled understatement. This is obviously somebody who is not normal. I don`t think he meets any definition of legal insanity, by the way, but he clearly is not connected with ordinary reality and behaves aberrantly.
I wonder about that arson. If somebody is a spoof that murders were committed in the house and the neighborhood, and they`re worried that the property values would go down or -- you`d be shocked what people think when something like this happens. And they get scared for themselves that something terrible happened in the neighborhood.
That would also be a possibility in my mind.
LALAMA: You don`t see him being legally insane?
AUSTIN: No. Not at all. He can be --
LALAMA: Why not?
AUSTIN: He can have a psychotic break and do all kinds of terrible thing but he shows the capacity to plan. Getting them out, dismembering them afterwards, taking them to a location, hiding the bodies.
You can`t be legally insane and be able to plan and execute all of those details and steps methodically. He might have been out of connection with reality for a few moments during the murder itself at one point.
I`m sure he was sexually obsessed with the young girl and he eliminated these three people to make sure that he could have her all to himself and he`d never be caught. And all of that could have been in a feverish state. But it`s not legal insanity if he can sustain planning and execution of details.
LALAMA: David Lohr, AOL News, is there any evidence that he sexually assaulted Sarah?
LOHR: No. Authorities aren`t commenting on that. And, you know, if I could just speak to his mental state for a moment, in the weeks leading up to this, he lost his job. His girlfriend broke up with him. She actually said she was afraid of him. His dog ran away. So he was experiencing quite a lot of problems leading up to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There is a hollow hole. From there he dropped them down to the base.
Here`s a better look at the hole. It is wide enough to place a body down but there were three bodies that ultimately lodged in the base. You could see here that investigators had to cut a hole at the bottom to get them out.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It`s been several days since anyone has seen or heard from 20-year-old Jenni-Lyn Watson. Official say the most frustrating thing at this point is the lack of information.
The only thing missing with Watson is her phone and authorities say that`s not much to go off of.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We keep pleading for people. Somebody knows something out there. And they`ve seen enough pictures now. If they`ve seen anybody that looks like her, we want to know.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Family and friends are overwhelmed by the amount of community support. Several companies have been handing out fliers to customers. And others have been printing thousands for the family to distribute.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We coordinated an effort to have people meet at my home and pass out fliers. And we had targeted areas. About a thousand fliers went out yesterday.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Several billboards have also been donated to help get the word out. The search has even been getting some national attention.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The goal actually has been to start locally and spread out throughout New York state and Pennsylvania. It does need national attention because she could be anywhere.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace.
David Lohr, in for AOL News. Just an absolutely stunning story. Do police have anything to go on at this point?
LOHR: No, they don`t. Jenni-Lyn -- she went home for Thanksgiving break last Thursday. She was home with her parents Friday morning. Her parents went to work. She left around noon. Nobody has seen her since. Her purse and her keys were left at the house but her cell phone is missing.
LALAMA: Kelly Kinahan, neighbor, family spokesperson, thank you so, so much for talking to us. And anything of course we can do to help, we`re here for that.
KELLY KINAHAN, NEIGHBOR AND FAMILY SPOKESPERSON: Thank you.
LALAMA: Everything that I`ve read about this young lady is extraordinary. Sweet, smart, strong, liked, personable, talented, everything you can think of. It just doesn`t make sense.
KINAHAN: No, it doesn`t make any sense. That`s why we`re trying to get as much information out nationally and raise the awareness so she is found and brought home safe.
LALAMA: Kelly, she is close to her family, correct?
KINAHAN: Yes. Very close.
LALAMA: Give me a sense of that. She would never leave and not leave a note or call. Tell me more about that closeness.
KINAHAN: She has always been very close to her family. And you know, very involved in the community and in events. Especially ballet. She has been a ballerina for 16 years. She has performed with Moscow Ballet in "The Nutcracker," the local Syracuse Symphony, and then majoring in dance in college and is now a member of a dance company out of Erie, Pennsylvania.
LALAMA: Detective Lieutenant Steven Rogers, I`m just trying to put something together here. Where do you begin? They do have the cell phone with one call that took them to a wooded area. What now?
ROGERS: Well, here -- this is a very similar case. Something I`ve been working on for years regarding a missing person. Here`s what happens. The police will certainly look into the young lady`s background. And we have already heard she is a model, model young citizen.
What this tells the police --a t least in my estimation is that she hadn`t planned to leave for too long a period of time or very far because she left her purse behind. She left her house keys behind. So it may be that she is with someone, whether voluntary or involuntary, that she knows.
And I`ve heard reports. I`ve read some of the police reports that she may have complained about a stalker. So saying all of that, the fact that she had her cell phone at least leads police to some point in time where she may have been, and that is where they triangulate the signal is coming from the cell phone, when it was active, and that would be at least the last place that they know she was at.
LALAMA: Howard Oliver, forensic pathologist, any kind of forensic evidence would be so helpful. What would we be looking for?
OLIVER: Mostly clothing or items left behind by the victim at this point. It would be about the only thing that would help.
LALAMA: And I -- I understand, David Lohr, that there are quite a number of sex offenders in the area and a couple close by?
LOHR: Yes, that`s correct. And there`s been some -- there was at least one attempted abduction that occur in the area earlier this month. Whether or not that`s related to the case, we don`t yet know.
LALAMA: Yes, 75 sex offenders in the area. But, you know, I want to ask you, Kelly, we`ve heard rumblings that she had a break-up with someone or there was someone -- I think it was a friend who was quoted as saying that she thought a particular person was behaving in a stalking sort of fashion. Is that true?
KINAHAN: That I cannot confirm. I do not have access to the personal information. That would be something that the investigators or detectives may have knowledge of. But I myself do not.
LALAMA: John Burris and Alan Ripka, any thoughts? I mean it just seems to me you`ve got this young girl, John -- young woman. She leaves with her phone but nothing else in the middle of the day and boom, she`s gone.
BURRIS: Well, it`s bizarre. I mean she is 20 years old. I guess she could go if she wants but it doesn`t make any sense for her to do it.
You know from a lawyering point of view, you`re really at a standstill as to what to do next. It`s really a police matter. And for the police to follow whatever leads they have. But beyond that, there`s not much for a defense lawyer to do.
LALAMA: Alan Ripka?
RIPKA: Yes, hopefully what`s going to happen is hopefully there are cameras at gas stations and delis and different stores out there in the -- in the local area. They`re probably talking to every friend of hers that she spoke to last. And that`s what they have to do in this investigation. And I hope we find her quickly.
LALAMA: Kelly Kinahan, there is a dark colored truck that could be quite important to this case. Can you tell us what you know?
KINAHAN: All I know is that information was disclosed publicly by the police department as of today.
LALAMA: All right. And David, what exactly -- what can you tell us is? When was it seen in the area? What color is it?. What kind is it?
LOHR: They haven`t told us the type of vehicle. They just said it was a dark colored pickup truck. It was seen Friday between 7:00 a.m. and 3:00 p.m. Authorities won`t comment on why or how it`s connected to the case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is very out of character for her not to have any contact with friends, especially her family. She just went home to be with her family for the holidays. We`re still holding on.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It`s been several days since anyone has seen or heard from 20-year-old Jenni-Lynn Watson. The first ground searches began Tuesday after days of aerial searches around Watson`s home.
Teams have been out canvassing several square miles of wooded area in Clay, between Morgan Road and Henry Clay Boulevard.
Deputies say Watson`s phone records show the cell phone was in the vicinity of their search. It has been off since Watson`s family reported her missing since Friday and therefore it can`t be used to track her current location.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace.
Back to Kelly Kinahan, neighbor and family spokesperson. Again, a million thanks for taking this time to talk to us. What would you like to tell us about the search effort?
KINAHAN: Immediately on Saturday when we have about 24 hours, I had spoken to investigators about creating a flyer and starting to post locally. And they said absolutely. Get going on that.
So I sent out an e-mail, a post on Facebook, on my own page. And also, there is a group page that has been developed informing people if they wanted to come to my residence on Sunday at 1:00 to target specific areas in the community and post these flyers at gas station, malls, plazas.
At this point, between Sunday and today, we have distributed well over 10,000 flyers. Many of those flyers have been donated by local businesses. There are many pizza companies that are actually taping them to their deliveries.
They are around at gas stations. In addition, once we had the local broadcast on Sunday, I`ve received over 300 e-mails from people either locally or out of state asking how they can help.
So I`ve given the address to just show up at the house, grab as many flyers on the front porch as you can and get them out there.
LALAMA: Kelly --
KINAHAN: People -- yes?
LALAMA: I so wish you the best of luck. We`re running out of time.
KINAHAN: OK.
LALAMA: Our thoughts are with you and we will be here with you.
Tonight, let`s stop to remember Marine Lance Corporal William Brett Wightman, 22, from Sabina, Ohio, killed in Iraq. He was awarded the Purple Heart, Iraq Campaign medal, and Combat Action Ribbon.
He dreamed of being a Marine since he was a little boy. He loved sports, especially football and track. He`s remembered as one of a kind. He leaves behind parents, Keith and Pam, stepmother Kim, and three sisters.
William Brett Wightman, a true American hero.
Thank you to all of our guests and to you at home for being with us. See you tomorrow night, 8:00 p.m. sharp Eastern. Until then, goodnight, everybody.
Have a wonderful, healthy and happy Thanksgiving.
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