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Nancy Grace
Allegations Zahra Was Raped Denied
Aired December 01, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: We begin tonight with breaking news out of North Carolina. As we go to air tonight, more secret police files with shocking potential evidence in the Zahra Baker investigation. This just in tonight, stunning search warrants reveal massive blood and tissue evidence throughout the Baker home. Now we know why investigators were forced to rip apart that house, taking 33 blood swabs and human tissue scrapings from the wall.
It`s also confirmed it was blood found in the Baker Chevy Tahoe. Test results from the State Bureau of Investigation confirmed bones recently found near a county back road -- they are Zahra`s. The bones match the DNA sample taken from Zahra`s personal items. And inside the search warrant affidavits, police naming the stepmother as a suspect in Zahra`s murder. And it is all amidst allegations that little Zahra was raped by two men before she was killed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m almost speechless as the details of this unfold.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news. Just released warrants in the Zahra Baker case reveal blood and tissue samples were found inside the family home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sheriff`s investigators in Burke County learned that Zahra had possibly been at a block (ph) house on County Line road where, according to two documents, two men allegedly raped her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Asked if they killed her, a source told police, quote, "They might have hit her in the head."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were details about where some of the body parts were found.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops even asking the court to allow a blood-stain pattern expert inside the house.
911 OPERATOR: How old is your daughter?
ADAM BAKER, ZAHRA`S FATHER: She`s 10. She`s got (INAUDIBLE) a prosthetic leg.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were latex gloves used in the dismemberment of Zahra.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to one of the search warrants, they searched a trap under a tub for blood evidence and bone fragments. In the search of the Baker home, police removed 33 blood swabs and also took tissue scrapings from the wall. What do they reveal?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) took her leg, put it in a plastic bag and threw it away in a dumpster.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That house of horrors where that child resided was no home for her, it was a torture chamber.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session" on the truTV network, in for Nancy Grace. And I thank you so much for joining us.
As we go inside more secret police files in the Zahra Baker investigation, search warrants reveal massive blood and tissue evidence throughout the entire Baker home! And bones recovered near a county back road -- confirmed they`re Zahra`s.
For the very latest, let us go out to John Miller, editor with "The Hickory Daily Record." John, what`s the latest in North Carolina?
JOHN MILLER, "HICKORY DAILY RECORD" (via telephone): Well, the latest is that those bones that were found off of Dudley Shoals Road on December - - excuse me -- on November the 10th -- they do match Zahra`s DNA. They were found off of Gunpowder Creek Road. There was a hole in the ground that was dug up, the dirt was taken. I remember standing out there two or three weeks ago, thinking about how this could have happened.
I also understand that the DNA matches DNA taken from the home. And it probably came from some of those swabs that came out of the home on October the 31st and November the 1st. That`s when they went in and really did a job on the home, taking those blood swabs, finding more hair and tissue and taking pieces of the wall and the drainpipe out of the home.
CASAREZ: To Natisha Lance, NANCY GRACE producer. Natisha, we have been combing through 122 pages today of search warrant affidavits, search warrant returns, an immense amount of information. There was so much blood in that home, Natisha, that they had to call in at the end of October a blood spatter expert into that home. Talk to us about the blood and the tissue that was found inside the Baker home.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: You`re right, Jean. On October 27th is when they entered the home. On October 29th is when they went to court, decided that they needed a blood spatter expert to come into the home because there was an immense amount of blood. Now, on October 31st, as John Miller just mentioned, and November 1st, when they went into the home, they removed pieces of the wall, also the drainpipe and the trap from the tub. That is when they took 33 blood swabs, as well as removing walls which had tissue on them.
Also, hair was removed, other tissue was removed, carpet fibers removed, floorboards removed. So they did a very thorough search of this home, trying to regain (ph) any type of physical evidence that may have belonged to Zahra Baker.
CASAREZ: You know, Natisha, when you say this, what just gets me in my gut is the search warrants say blood tissue of little Zahra was found on walls in the home, walls throughout the home.
I want to go to Ellie Jostad, NANCY GRACE producer. We are finding out more detailed information about an alleged rape, possibly an alleged double rape committed against Zahra before she was killed.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. Well, in these warrants, they reveal that a tipster or a source came to police, said that he`d heard from a woman he was acquainted with that she knew about this rape. She says that Zahra was in the home, that when the mother returned -- it`s not clear where the mother, Elisa Baker, went, but when she returned, Zahra was bleeding from her private area, is how they phrase it. She also had blood on her legs.
Police did locate these two men. They did search the house. We know they did find a mattress out front with a stain on it. Now, one of the men told police that was from his own urine. He claims he urinated on that mattress. We don`t know, however, if police did find any genetic evidence that Zahra had been in that house.
CASAREZ: And one of the two men is coming forward, saying that he didn`t do anything at all, right?
JOSTAD: Yes, that`s right. He spoke to our affiliate down in North Carolina. He says that he talked to police for over 10 hours. He claims he took a polygraph test. He says to his knowledge, Zahra Baker has never been in his home, although he said he did knew her. He was acquainted with her. He`d met on Christmas last year. But he claims he did not hurt her and that she was not in that house.
CASAREZ: And remember, it was the informant that went to police on October 14th, and it was the informant that led police to a specific home where people do say that they knew her in that home.
John Miller, editor of "The Hickory Daily Record" -- John, I`ve got to ask you the question that everybody wants to know. Where is Adam Baker? What is he doing? You`ve got reporters around that entire community. Has anybody spotted him?
MILLER: We haven`t spotted him. We know that there are people who, on our Web site, for instance, will tell us they may have seen him here or there, but that`s secondary. That`s not definitive knowledge that somebody`s seen him.
We do know that in the celebration of life tribute that`ll be happening tomorrow and Friday, that he did go to the funeral home with his mother and they did make the arrangements for the tribute, even though the private ceremony that they were going to have -- or excuse me, the public ceremony they were going to have initially now has been turned private, and the public isn`t allowed in that.
CASAREZ: So this private ceremony is tomorrow night for Zahra Baker?
MILLER: No, not the private one. The public one is tomorrow night and Friday afternoon. People are going to be allowed to go to the funeral home to view a video and photo montage of Zahra and to sign two books, one going to her mother in Australia and one being kept by Adam Baker. But we have not spotted him at the funeral home at all.
CASAREZ: We are taking your calls live. To Tressie, North Carolina. Hi, Tressie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
CASAREZ: Welcome to the show.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I enjoy the show. Tell Nancy we`re praying for her.
CASAREZ: Well, Nancy is watching. She heard that right now. I want to tell everybody she`s going to be back on Monday, so you`re going to get your Nancy Grace back on Monday. Tressie, what`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Wanting to know where Adam Baker is? He is within one mile of my home. And I don`t quite understand why he`s not been arrested. Also, where did he get this truck he`s driving around? Both of the cars were confiscated.
CASAREZ: You`re right. And search warrants prove that the cars are in the possession of law enforcement. And Tressie, there was blood found in at least one of them. So have you seen him driving around?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know exactly where he lives, what apartment he lives in.
CASAREZ: So he`s in an apartment?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Despicable! This is despicable. People in this community -- I just -- it -- you know, I`ve lived through one murder in my community, and this one is despicable. But for somebody to house this man, they have got to be cold-blooded!
CASAREZ: Whoever did this is unbelievable, the personality traits involved.
Let`s go to the attorneys. Doug Burns, defense attorney out of New York. Good to see you, Doug. Alex Sanchez, good to see you, defense attorney out of New York. All right, this is what everybody wants to know, Doug Burns. Why isn`t there an arrest? Because I can think of a lot of things, obstruction of justice, tampering with evidence. I mean, we can go on and on. But he is walking free. What`s the strategy here?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, no, you`re right. You have to separate out homicide versus the other stuff, like accessory after the fact or tampering with evidence or obstruction of justice. The law enforcement strategy may be that they want to dot I`s and cross T`s before they make a move. But I`ve heard other experts say they`re surprised. And I have to tell you, on many levels, I`m scratching my head, as well, Jean.
CASAREZ: All right, Alex Sanchez, you always have an answer. You`re not scratching your head, are you. You`ve got a perfect answer why he hasn`t been arrested.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because I think the police are troubled. They`re unclear about who`s responsible for this girl`s death. I mean, is it the mother? Is it the father? Now we hear about these gentlemen -- or these -- gentlemen? These men that raped this girl and then banged her over the head. Are they responsible for killing her? You don`t want to go ahead and arrest somebody too soon because then that may jeopardize a criminal prosecution later on, and then double jeopardy may enter into the situation. You want to be very careful about prosecuting somebody, especially in a matter of this importance.
CASAREZ: All right, you don`t think by arresting, they can pressure him to get that information that they need?
SANCHEZ: No. At that point, he might as well just be quiet and say - - demand an immediate trial. And then the police are going to be in a situation of either going forward with the trial or moving to dismiss the case. You don`t want to -- you don`t want to be in that situation, if you`re the prosecutor. Better off to wait, develop a strong case, then come on ,in make the arrest and prosecute him.
CASAREZ: Right to a speedy trial. To Laurie in Tennessee. Hi, Laurie.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Jean. How are you doing?
CASAREZ: I`m fine. Thank you for calling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Out of all of this, I haven`t heard anything about Zahra`s medical records. Do we know for sure that she had cancer and it wasn`t self-inflicted by these parents to get extra money from the government or whatever?
CASAREZ: You know what you`re saying, Laurie, you`re saying credibility. How can you believe anything that anybody is saying? That`s what you`re saying.
Let`s answer your question with Ellie Jostad, NANCY GRACE producer. Did she ever even visit a doctor in the United States?
JOSTAD: Well, it doesn`t appear that she did. As far as we know -- and we`ve asked police about this. They can`t find anything that indicates she did see a doctor here. Only in Australia, it looks like.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The new warrant (ph) reportedly reveals Elisa Baker`s attorney told cops Zahra was dismembered inside the family home and that rubber gloves and blood would also be found in the house.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shocking new details.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So evil and so horrible.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: About Zahra`s brutal murder.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Latex gloves used in the dismemberment of Zahra.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police searched a trap under a tub for...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Remains, including bone, blood or tissue.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The prosthetic leg.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wrapped in a white trash bag and then placed into a dumpster.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a gruesome litany of things that we learned.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It appears that the dismemberment may have occurred there in the house.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m almost speechless.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We didn`t think details could get any worse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then there was a rape allegation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But they have.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A tipster told North Carolina police that Zahra Baker was raped by two men before she was killed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is one of the most disgusting, disgraceful things we`ve ever heard on this show!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This show!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This show!
911 OPERATOR: Catawba County, 911.
BAKER: Hi. How you doing?
911 OPERATOR: I`m good.
BAKER: I need police.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: According to search warrants and search warrant affidavits that we have received and been combing through all day, Elisa Baker, the stepmother of Zahra Baker, told law enforcement, Go to our home, go to the bathtub, look in the drain, you will see bodily fluids and pieces of bone and blood of Zahra Baker.
I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session," in for Nancy Grace today. I want to go to Dr. Ron Martinelli, a forensic criminologist and associate of Martinelli and Associates, just and forensic consultants. There was so much blood, according to these search warrant documents, that the prosecution asked for and was able to call in a blood spatter specialist. I know as an attorney, you know as a criminologist, they -- what looks just like a bunch of blood to us, they weave the facts around that blood to show the picture of what happened. What can they actually show?
RON MARTINELLI, FORENSIC CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, it can show -- definitely show a mechanism of a body disposal, in this particular case, dismemberment. The blood spatter evidence usually found all about where that part of the crime scene is going to located could be examples of things that are flung up on the wall, around the side of the tub, up into the ceiling. It would give you an indication of what types of implements were used to dismember the body.
The fact that bone chips might have been found in the tub indicate probably some sort of mechanized instrument for dismembering the body. And of course, the blood splatter evidence will definitely give you an indication of velocity, height of the person, depending on whether they were standing and reaching down into the tub, but most certainly some sort of mechanism.
CASAREZ: Doctor, can they show if little Zahra fought back, if she swung her hands and fought back as someone was killing her?
MARTINELLI: Well, it certainly could show something like that. It would show positioning of a suspect in response to -- or in relationship to a victim. It could show whether the victim was in a supine position or in a standing position. But I think we also have to consider that the victim in this particular case might have already been murdered and that the body was taken to the bathtub and dismembered there.
But something also comes to mind. If there`s a speculation of a sexual assault and the people that were disposing of the body were aware of that, one of the reasons that you might want to put the victim in the tub, besides to isolate the crime scene or isolate how the victim was going to be, you know, dismembered, would be to wash the victim, get into the victim -- the victim`s vaginal vault to remove -- using some sort of spray attachment or water or something like that, to remove any evidence of semen or any other DNA evidence, any body hairs that might have been on the victim`s body.
So it isn`t just the fact that the tub was used, perhaps, to dismember the body, but to also conceal evidence. And this would show indications of planning and premeditation.
CASAREZ: Yes. Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner and author of "When Doctors Kill" -- Doctor, I`ve got so much to ask you this hour. But number one, we don`t know a cause of death. In all of these search warrants, all of this information, nothing goes toward how she died. If you find body parts that may be preserved in garbage bags, can you put together and find a cause of death?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, BROWARD COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, it depends what body parts would be found. In this particular case, there were indication that she was struck on the head, so there are fragment of skull which showed that there were definitely pre-mortem fracture, then you can conclude that, indeed, this was the cause of death.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAKER: My daughter`s I think coming into puberty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Adam, can we talk to you?
BAKER: She`s hitting that brooding stage
EMILY DIETRICH, ZAHRA`S MOTHER: I`m trying to make sense of this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her body had been dismembered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to court documents, two men allegedly raped her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re a dad. This is a girl. This has to impact you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That this amazing little girl had to suffer at the hands of these evil people.
DIETRICH: I can`t make sense of it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say they searched the home where Zahra lived for items used to dismember her body.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about what they removed from the home just now? Is that anything, Adam?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session" on the truTV network, in for Nancy Grace tonight. These search warrant documents alleged that little Zahra Baker may have been raped at some point before she was killed. The facts are horrendous. They say and they allege that at the home of two men was where it happened and that Elisa Baker was not there at the time, although she knew the men. And when she came back, little Zahra allegedly had blood in her pelvic area and on her legs. One of the two men publicly has said there is no truth to that whatsoever. The other is not speaking. Nonetheless, it`s an allegation, and a search was done of that home and a mattress was outside with a dark stain.
We`ve got callers. Johanna in Illinois. Hi, Johanna.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I was wondering -- I had two questions. One is, has there been any communication anybody knows of Zahra`s dad speaking with the stepmom or visiting her? And also, wasn`t there other individuals that lived in the home with them also at this time?
CASAREZ: OK. Let`s take your second question second. First of all, Elisa Baker, since she`s incarcerated, any conversation she has is going to be monitored. It`s going to be recorded. It can be turned over to prosecutors. It can become discovery. So I think his attorney would advise him not to talk to her and her attorney advise her not to talk to the other. So I don`t think that will happen.
But John Miller, editor of "The Hickory Daily Record," do we know of any communication at all between the two of them?
MILLER: We do not know of any direct communication between Elisa Baker and Adam Baker since she was jailed.
CASAREZ: OK. Who lived in the home?
MILLER: From our understanding, the home here in Hickory, the only -- supposedly, the three of them, Adam, Zahra and Elisa. Now, that doesn`t mean that in previous residences, before they moved here, that they may not have had someone else who lived in the home with them.
CASAREZ: And Johanna, you`re saying a really big point right there because if that home is filled with blood, as these search warrants are telling us, then you look at the people that lived in the home and are still alive.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zahra Baker was dismembered and her remains were stuffed inside a bed comforter and car cover, according to reports of court documents that have just been released.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is so diabolical.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Somebody actually treated her like she was a dog.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It`s certainly the most shocking thing we read in these dozens of pages. It says that a tipster told police that two men -- cousins -- had raped and killed Zahra and that her stepmom, Elisa knew about it.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stepmom Elisa Baker told cops her Facebook password is 666, according to newly obtained search warrants in the Zahra Baker investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She told friends and relatives from behind bars that she`d taken a polygraph test that would prove she`s telling the truth. However, these search warrants indicate that she was deceptive on three questions.
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: There`s no desperation in his voice.
ADAM BAKER, FATHER OF MISSING 10-YEAR-OLD GIRL ZAHRA BAKER: My name is Adam Baker.
KLAAS: There`s no urgency.
A. BAKER: It appears they may have taken my daughter.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Did you hear the father laugh?
A. BAKER: She`s hitting that brooding stage.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Search warrants reveal police found blood and tissue evidence inside the family home. Blood swabs, hair and tissue samples and tissue scrapings removed.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The details that we learned, the most horrifying detail is that Zahra Baker`s body was dismembered.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: These documents provide the first good look at the information Elisa Baker has given police. They say she led them to four dumpsters where she told investigators she and Adam had ditched Zahra`s prosthetic leg, mattress and the comforter and car cover they used to transport her dismembered her body.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: I`m Jean Casarez on "In Session" on the truTV Network in for Nancy Grace tonight.
Nancy, don`t you get up off that sofa up. You rest. You watch the show. We`re going to see on you Monday.
Everybody, Nancy will be back on Monday. She is convalescing. Our thoughts are with her.
To Natisha Lance, NANCY GRACE producer that has been on this case from the very beginning.
Natisha, for the first time we are seeing returns from the search warrant of what they actually collected in that home. Summarize it for us.
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Jean, they collected 33 swabs of blood, hair and tissue, tissue markings that were on the walls in the home. Floorboards we know that they took. Also drain pipes and traps from the tub. Drain pipes from the sink, .
Gloves that were taken from the home that Elisa Baker, through her attorney, said that they would be able to find under the bathroom sink. Also trash bags that they -- that Elisa Baker, through her attorney, said that they would be able to find under the kitchen sink.
A huge amount of items that were seized from the home. And also, Jean, other items including pill bottles, empty pill bottles and something that stood out to me is that they took lidocaine, which is an anesthetic, from the home as well, too.
CASAREZ: Right. Lidocaine, a syringe.
Doctor Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner out of Broward County, Florida, when you have performed an autopsy with a dismembered body, can you find out if someone was drugged? Can you find the toxicology levels at all in someone?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN DOCTORS KILL": Well, it`s possible to detect in tissue the presence of drugs. And if there are bones, it`s possible to detect it sometimes in bone marrow.
So if there`s sufficient tissue, then this can be done. If very small amount of tissue just on the wall, then I would say that`s unlikely.
CASAREZ: And what about the fact that Elisa Baker told authorities that, we used garbage bags to put the remains in. If they were housed in those protective heavy garbage bags, that protects the remains from the elements. And it was only a little over a month from when she disappeared. That helps you as the medical examiner, right?
PERPER: That`s correct. They might be inside the bag tissue which is better preserved because it was -- has been protected from the environment, from the elements.
CASAREZ: All right. Connie in South Carolina. Hi, Connie.
CONNIE, CALLER FROM SOUTH CAROLINA: Hi. How are you doing, Jean?
CASAREZ: Good evening. Fine, thank you.
CONNIE: My first -- my first quote is Elisa Baker got $10,000 from a gentleman, I believe it was from England? Could that possibly be the motive for the killing where she sold Zahra?
CASAREZ: Boy, you`ve got a good memory. You know, Connie, there`s so many facts on this case.
Let`s go to Ellie Jostad. Do you remember when she got money?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Right.
CASAREZ: Her daughter testified to that, didn`t she, at the bail hearing?
JOSTAD: Yes. That`s exactly right. She actually -- the state called the daughter to prove that Elisa Baker was a flight risk. She sad that she had access to money. That this man in London -- the caller is right -- had sent her $10,000. And I believe it was as recently as within the last year. So she said she was getting income from that guy.
CASAREZ: Right. So, getting money, obviously money was a motive to all of this.
I want to go to Caryn Stark, awesome psychologist out of New York.
Caryn, it`s good to see you. You know --
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Good to see you, Jean.
CASAREZ: We`ve been trying to think, Caryn, a motive. What could be the motive here to do this to a little girl? And I remember reading over and over again one of the letters that Elisa Baker wrote from jail. So this is her state of mind, saying, you know, this case probably wouldn`t get as much attention if Zahra didn`t have a prosthetic leg, if they wasn`t deaf and if she hadn`t had cancer.
That`s jealousy right there, isn`t it?
STARK: That`s a wonderful point, Jean. That is -- it`s jealousy. It`s also coming from a woman -- how could she not be jealous of this little girl when she herself -- associates herself with the devil?
She`s obviously not somebody who is any of the stuff that she`s doing or coming from a good place. And, you know, it`s not as though we could even trust anything that she says because she sounds like she`s a pathological liar.
And why anybody would be so abusive to this little girl, it`s hard to understand, but clearly, now you hear this rape story. Her father is on the phone very nonchalantly in saying well, she`s going through puberty, perhaps at 10.
She was not treated like a little girl. Nobody loved her and cared about her. It`s not what we would ever expect. She was really treated as though she wasn`t a person, and especially not a child.
CASAREZ: You know, Caryn, you bring us back to the basics in this case. And we learn now that on the 9th of October, when she was reported missing, Elisa Baker said oh the night before, on the 8th, we went to an Oktoberfest celebration. But at the very same time, separately from that, Adam Baker said the last time I saw her was Wednesday.
Everybody, we want to play for you that 911 call. Listen to the voice, listen to the demeanor, the state of mind of Adam Baker telling law enforcement for the first time his daughter is gone.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: So no one has seen your daughter since 2:30 this morning?
A. BAKER: No. Like I said we had all that drama last night and me and my wife went back to bed, and my daughter`s I think coming into puberty so she`s hitting that brooding stage, so we only see her when she comes out when she wants something, and that`s about it.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. And did you say that she was handicapped?
A. BAKER: Yes, ma`am. She has an above-the-knee amputation.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. She has one -- one leg?
A. BAKER: One leg, yes, ma`am.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: That`s partially amputated?
A. BAKER: Yes. She has a prosthetic leg which apparently gets taken with her.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Prosthetic leg was taken with her?
A. BAKER: Yes, ma`am.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: All right, Doug Burns, defense attorney out of New York. How are you going to battle from that? Because we have now learned from these search warrant affidavits --
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.
CASAREZ: That he told investigators that he last time saw his daughter on Wednesday. Even says that on the 911 call. But Elisa?
BURNS: Right.
CASAREZ: She says last night we all went to the Oktoberfest celebration. How are you going to combat that?
BURNS: Well, yes, it`s a bizarre mix because on the one hand obviously inconsistent statements often lead everybody to theorize that it`s consciousness of guilt, but the calm demeanor really works in both directions.
In other words, it`s also consistent with him having done absolutely nothing wrong. I`m telling you, the case is very, very puzzling. It`s bizarre, Jean.
CASAREZ: It is very bizarre. It is.
Alex Sanchez, you know, when I look at this case, I think about the Durst case in Galveston. And let`s remind everybody, that was a murder case, but what the defense was able to do, they were able to do bifurcate, have the murder separated out from the dismemberment and they tried to show the jury that the dismemberment was mere panic.
It had nothing to do with the murder at all. And guess what? He got off on the murder and got a couple of years for the dismemberment.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. And you can expect something like that to happen here. But the question I have, Jean, about these affidavits, I mean, how were these 120 pages of affidavits released? What did they come out, on WikiLeaks or something? This is something --
(LAUGHTER)
CASAREZ: No.
SANCHEZ: This is something that should be kept secret because you`re providing information to potential defendants or potential suspects in the case, right? This is information that comes out way later on during the discovery process.
How it came out now, I`m mystified by that. Maybe someone has an explanation.
CASAREZ: Well, I can -- I give you a summary. OK? It`s when you snooze, you lose, this is what happened. They were sealed for a certain amount of time.
SANCHEZ: Yes.
CASAREZ: The prosecution didn`t renew it or go to court. At the last minute they realized something was going to happen. They went then but the judge said, denied. They are released.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: In a dumpster behind a restaurant.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Stepmom led them to four dumpsters.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A mattress with a large stain on it.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She and Adam had ditched Zahra`s prosthetic leg, mattress, and the comforter and car cover they used to transport her dismembered body.
CASAREZ: Zahra Baker is dead.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: The stunning search warrants.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Gruesome details.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Dismemberment.
CASAREZ: Disturbing evidence.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There was another mattress introduced.
CASAREZ: Shocking new details.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There was a rape allegation.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The police were told that blood spatter could be found in the home.
CASAREZ: Remains of Zahra Baker were found in a shallow grave.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Elisa Baker`s attorney told cops Zahra was dismembered inside the family home.
CASAREZ: Possible remains found in the bathtub drain.
KLAAS: She seemed to undergo endless abuse, cruelty and downright evil at the hands of these people.
A. BAKER: My daughter`s, I think, coming into puberty, she`s hitting that brooding stage. She we only see her when she comes out when she wants something and that`s about it.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session" in for Nancy Grace tonight.
Out to Marc Klaas, president and founder of KlaasKids Foundation.
You know, Marc , last night when you said that you were at a loss for words, I think we all just went, wow. I mean, for Marc Klaas to say that. You`ve had 24 hours to think about this.
What are your thoughts at this point?
KLAAS: Well, have I plenty to say now, Jean.
At best Adam Baker is a repulsive individual who allowed his daughter to be surrounded by sadists, by pedophiles, by human traffickers and by murderers. And I say human traffickers because it`s not inconsistent with Elisa`s story that she may very well -- having known this men --sold this little girl into sexual slavery to them or rented her to them.
Remember, Zahra had been marginalized from the rest of society. Nobody had seen her for a long time prior to this. Maybe she rented these guys for sexual purposes and they got carried away. Maybe they murdered her.
What is she going to do? She can`t go to the authorities with this. What`s the best thing for her to do? To get rid of the body. What`s the best way for her to get rid of the body? In her mind, perhaps it`s to dismember her.
This is a vile, horrible story and it`s one that certainly could have been prevented. Because remember, there had been every fourth person in Catawba County had gone on television or spoken to a reporter and said they were aware of the abuse and that they had reported it to the Department of Social Services.
At least one of those report is verified as well as other reports against Elisa Baker going back to 1999, concerning abuse and investigations against her own children, but what did they do? They did nothing. They allowed this little girl to be murdered, to be dismembered, to be tortured, and to leave the rest of society to sit here and talk about it.
This is just the worst case. This is the worst thing I`ve ever seen in my life.
CASAREZ: I know. I know. And Marc Klaas, you realize the picture that this show, Nancy Grace`s show has had for weeks now, showing little Zahra Baker for what we believed was a black eye. That`s what family members had told us.
Well, these search warrant documents confirmed that there was an investigation from the Department of Social Services from one county transferred to another county that the bakers moved in, in regard to that black eye.
All right. Daniel Austin, retired New York Police Department detective. What`s the murder weapon? We don`t see anything in these documents about a murder weapon.
To Dr. Ron Martinelli, forensic criminologist with us tonight, can`t they be searching -- don`t they have to be searching for a murder weapon? A saw?
RON MARTINELLI, PH.D., FORENSIC CRIMINOLOGIST, MARTINELLI & ASSOCIATES, JUSTICE AND FORENSIC CONSULTANTS, INC.: Yes, they`re going to be --
CASAREZ: A dismemberment --
MARTINELLI: They`re going to be searching for -- well, they`re going to be searching for a murder weapon but right now it`s going to be a little bit hard to determine what that murder weapon was, especially with all the traumatic injury associated with dismemberment.
They might be able to determine and reconcile whether or not there was a severe acute blow to the head that might have been the proximate cause of death. However, until we take a look at an autopsy and, you know, the forensic analysis, we don`t know whether the victim was hit over the head or strangled or choked.
We don`t know whether she, in fact, was the victim of a sexual assault or she was the victim of filicide, which is defined as a parent killing a child. So that`s not out of the realm of possibility. And out of the categories -- filicide, an unwanted child is one of the five categories.
And certainly, there appears to be some evidence that this child was not appreciated and was unwanted.
And I also agree with Mr. Klaas, the child could have been sold into sexual slavery. And this could have been a sexual assault gone awry. And now, you know, the people may have to cover that crime.
So, I mean, I would -- I would wait and see what the forensic evidence shows us. And also we need to look at the linkage. And that`s what the police are involved in right now. There is going to be some sort of linkage between the suspects. The stepmother, the father, the two gentlemen that have been talked about before.
That`s why they`re going forensically in the affidavit of search warrant and looking for phone records, you know, documentation that would link people together. And I think this will be very important.
They also have to do a behavioral autopsy on a living person, who is - - who is the mother of this -- the stepmother here, as well as the father. And that`s what they`re doing.
CASAREZ: And who we now know has been named as a suspect in records, search warrant affidavits, we`re talking about Elisa Baker.
To Trina in North Carolina. Hi, Trina.
TRINA, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Hi.
CASAREZ: Thank you for calling.
TRINA: I`m calling about the -- I was concerned about when Adam Baker did the 911 call and he said that Zahra was probably starting puberty. Do you think he had already knew she was already raped then?
CASAREZ: Again, that he -- did he know that she was what?
TRINA: Raped. Then. Whenever he said that she was going through the puberty.
CASAREZ: All right. I think you`re saying -- right.
To Caryn Stark, psychologist. What do you make of him on this call bringing into the conversation that she was going through puberty?
STARK: It is such an odd thing. Don`t you think, Jean?
CASAREZ: Yes.
STARK: I mean -- and it also makes you wonder about what was going on sexually that he`s talking about her going through puberty. It`s either that or he`s extremely naive about whether a 10-year-old is going through puberty or not. But it makes you wonder even with the two guys that`s supposedly raped her. You know what was he told? What was he doing with his daughter? What was he seeing her as? A sexual being or a little girl?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When police searched the property and sifted for clues, because Elisa`s attorneys told police the body had been dismembered. Nearly every effort was focused on finding evidence of a dismembered body.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: North Carolina police says Zahra Baker was raped by two men before she was killed.
CASAREZ: Shocking new details.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The body had been dismembered.
KLAAS: There are some acts that are so despicable.
CASAREZ: Just driving around to various counties and locations, and jumping from here to there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I pray that this is a wakeup call to social services.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I want you to listen to this. Listen to some of the things that were collected from that home. Kitchen drain pipe, bathroom drain pipe, syringe, lidocaine, piece of brick, a piece of plastic, five different cell phones, and a set of crutches.
To Debbie in Mississippi. Hi, Debbie. Good evening.
DEBBIE, CALLER FROM MISSISSIPPI: Hello. Hello.
CASAREZ: Thank you for calling.
DEBBIE: Yes, uh-huh. I just wanted to know -- it seems like that there`s more known facts against Adam Baker already than there was against Casey Anthony when they arrested her.
I don`t understand why she got arrested when they learned so much more about her after she was in jail and they already know so much about Adam Baker that he`s not in jail.
What is the difference?
CASAREZ: That is a very good point. To Dr. Ron Martinelli, forensic criminologist, we don`t have much time but why hasn`t he been arrested on something? You`re the criminologist. What`s the theory?
MARTINELLI: Well, I`ve done a lot of detective work in my career. Just very shortly, I think the department is overwhelmed. It`s a small department. There was an eight-hour time difference between when they first were called to the scene in regards to a fire to when they came back to the house. There are many things yet. And I think they`re right now in the process of collecting evidence.
CASAREZ: All right. Thank you so much to all of our guests.
Tonight, let us stop to remember Army Staff Sergeant Asbury Fred Hawn II, 35 years old from Lebanon, Tennessee. Killed in Iraq. He was awarded the Purple Heart, the Combat Action Ribbon and Bronze Service Star.
He lost his life before he could spend time on the farm that he had just bought with his wife. He loved handing out coloring books and candy to Iraqi children. He dreamed of being a police officer. He leaves behind his parents, Asbury and Faith, his sisters, Faith and Theresa, his widow Angela, and his sons, Spencer and Jonathan.
Asbury Fred Hawn II, an American hero.
Thank you so much to all of our guests, to you at home for being with us. We`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern.
Good night, everybody. And good night, Nancy.
END
