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Nancy Grace
Ten-Year-Old Shoots Mother in Head After Argument
Aired January 05, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, America`s heartland. A mother of four, Deborah McVay, brutally murdered, gunned down in her own home, shot execution-style. Emergency crews find Mommy face down in the family`s living room. Bombshell tonight. Mommy`s 10-year-old son races across the street to call 911, begging police to, quote, "come as fast as you can." When they asked, What`s the emergency, the 10-year-old reveals he just shot his own mother in the head with his brand-new Christmas present.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, what is your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. My name is Shannon Anderson and I live at (DELETED) Township Road at 511 Big Prairie. And a neighbor kid just came down. I guess there`s an emergency at the kid`s house and they need to have the cops up there, and a squad car.
911 OPERATOR: Do you know what happened?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s asking what happened. Is there -- can you -- can I get your address?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t know your address?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know what happened. Tell him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come as fast as they can!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know, but...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I shot my mom!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Huh?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I shot her with a gun!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You shot your mom?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, the little boy shot his mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s dead!
911 OPERATOR: Does he have that gun on him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. He`s down here, and I just -- there`s a pile of blood. His mom`s up there. He shot his mom with a .22. What`s your last name?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: McVay.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His last name is McVay.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, what starts as a routine traffic stop goes deadly wrong. Within minutes, state trooper Chadrick Lecroix (ph) dead. The perp, a thug with nearly 20 arrests, that we know of, a drug trafficker, Gregory Favors (ph). Why was Favors out of jail? Why was he walking the streets anyway? Now a state trooper, a father, a husband dead. Tonight, we want justice!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gregory, did you do it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty-year-old Gregory Favors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What you got to say, Gregory?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charges he gunned down Trooper Chadrick Lecroix.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Struck multiple times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: During a traffic stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For a headlight that was out on the vehicle. The trooper was struck multiple times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Losing his life over a traffic stop.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s been arrested 19 other times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arrested 19 different times over the past 11 years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nineteen times.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m really angry because how is it that someone who`s been arrested.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nineteen 19 different times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nineteen other times.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can still walk the streets of Atlanta?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. A mother of four, Deborah McVay, brutally murdered, gunned down in her own home, shot execution-style. Emergency crews find Mommy face down on the living room floor. Mommy`s 10-year-old son races across the street to call 911, begging cops to come as fast as they can. When asked what`s the emergency, the 10-year-old reveals he shot his own mother in the head with a brand-new Christmas toy.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, where is your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got a lady just got shot in the head here. I think you guys already got the call, but I`m not sure.
911 OPERATOR: 911, where is your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My daughter just got shot in the head.
911 OPERATOR: Where at?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s at the house.
911 OPERATOR: Where`s her house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The garage -- she`s (INAUDIBLE) in the garage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m her neighbor. I`m over here. She`s bleeding from her head.
911 OPERATOR: Is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, she`s bleeding.
911 OPERATOR: But is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think -- no, I couldn`t feel a pulse.
911 OPERATOR: Is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No!
911 OPERATOR: You were with her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I wasn`t! I was in the bathroom inside!
911 OPERATOR: All right. Hold on here a minute. Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where`s the kids at? Hurry! Hurry! Hurry! Hurry up! Just tell them the gun, where the gun`s at and all that.
911 OPERATOR: I`ll get them -- I`ll get them there. I`m going to go, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
911 OPERATOR: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: `Bye.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHAWNA MCVAY, VICTIM`S DAUGHTER: I heard a shot, and then Mom, she just looked at me and fell to the ground. He was just, like, standing there, like, looking at her body, and then pointed the gun at me. And then I, like, begged him not to, like, shoot me. And then he ran down to the neighbors and then he told them to call 911.
JOSHUA MIKE, VICTIM`S SON: We are a country family, with guns and stuff around the house. It was just part of our family. And it come back on us.
My mother was the best mother I could ask for, anyone could ask for. I know my brother didn`t mean to kill his mama.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is from ABC`s "Good Morning America." We are taking your calls. I want to go straight out to Christine Pratt, reporter with The Wooster Daily Record. Christine, what do you know?
CHRISTINE PRATT, "DAILY RECORD OF WOOSTER": What we`ve got now is a 10-year-old boy who`s in custody for, obviously, shooting and killing his 46-year-old mother, Deborah McVay, on the evening of January 2nd. The boy`s 15-year-old sister, who reportedly witnessed the whole incident, told investigators the boy and their mother had been fighting about chores, specifically her request that he go out and fetch firewood. She said her brother told her he was tired of arguing with his mother, went into his bedroom and reappeared in the doorway. That`s where he was when he shot his mother with a .22-caliber rifle.
GRACE: To Rupa Mikkilineni, our producer on the story. Rupa, what more can you tell me?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. We know that the boy shot his mother from his bedroom door. But what happened was he had four weapons in there. Two of those weapons were in a gun rack hanging on the wall. Two other weapons were laid out on his bed. One was a .22- caliber shotgun -- or excuse me, rifle, and the other was a -- was a...
GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait! Stop. I thought from my reading of the wires that I managed to glean this was a Christmas toy and it was really more or less an accident that he shot his own mother. But you`re telling me that he had a gun rack over his bed and he had taken out all four guns and had them lying on his bed.
MIKKILINENI: That`s right, Nancy. Two of the guns were taken out, lying on the bed, both of them loaded. The other two guns were unloaded in the gun rack. But the two loaded guns sitting on his bed, and he used one of them to shoot his mother from 12 feet away. She was on the couch, laying there. And he claims he didn`t aim for her head necessarily. He didn`t use the -- I believe it`s called a rifle scope. He didn`t use that. He just pulled the gun up and shot towards the couch and got her in the head.
GRACE: OK, to David Lohr, crime reporter, AOLnews.com. David, the way it had been first represented in news accounts was that he had gotten a toy for Christmas that was actually a .22-caliber -- a lot of people think it`s OK to give your children guns -- he`s 10 years old -- and that there was a misfire. But now the facts seem to be lining up to be a little more disturbing.
DAVID LOHR, AOLNEWS.COM: Yes, that`s correct, Nancy. According to the prosecutor`s office, you know, this is something the kid had done on purpose. As far as the guns go, they had belonged to his grandfather, his late grandfather. They were given to him by his father. And they were actually a subject of contention between the boy`s father and his mother. They had recently separated, and she didn`t want the guns in the house. The father wanted them in the house. So that was an ongoing problem they were having.
GRACE: OK. So the father and the mother no longer lived together, David Lohr?
LOHR: That`s correct. They`ve been separated...
GRACE: Yes, well, if the father...
LOHR: ... for about two weeks.
GRACE: ... wanted him to have guns, why didn`t he stash them over at his house instead of the mom`s house?
LOHR: Yes, that`s (INAUDIBLE) right now. We don`t even know where the father is staying right now, but he`s not staying at the residence.
GRACE: OK, so the little sister saw this whole thing. I want to go back to you, Rupa Mikkilineni. I want to hear more about the incident. So this was a Christmas gift, but it was a family gift, like it had belonged to someone in the family and handed down to him.
MIKKILINENI: That`s correct. And he received them at Christmastime. But we`re not sure if he received them this Christmas or the previous Christmas. Police were uncertain if this boy had been training, practicing. This area, this community is a hunting, rural area, and children are, in fact, given shotguns at a very young age and do shoot. They shoot squirrels. They shoot other wild animals...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa! Wait a minute! Wait a minute! What do you mean by "this area"? What do you mean by that?
911 OPERATOR: Right. So I`ve been told by the police and various other people in that particular community it`s a rural community, it`s a hunting community. And so children are...
GRACE: OK, Rupa, Rupa, I grew up in a very rural community. I couldn`t even see the next house on one side of us, all right? And I never saw a gun or put my finger on a gun until I was a felony prosecutor. So let`s be a little bit clear when you refer to a whole region of the country as the children getting guns at an early age. That`s absolutely an unacceptable stereotype! So I advise you to rephrase as you continue your news account. Go ahead.
911 OPERATOR: All right, Nancy. What I`m trying to say is I was told by some of the people that live in this community that many of the people that live in this particular area do tend to shoot, and they like to shoot, and that they do actually raise their children, taking them out at a young age and teaching them how to use a gun.
Now, the police are uncertain if this particular boy -- how long he had these guns in his possession and whether he`d been trained. What we do know is that these guns were in his bedroom, not locked, two of them loaded, two of them unloaded in his bedroom. Again, this was a bone of contention between the mother and the father. The father gave these guns to his son as a gift. The mother did not want them in the house. She wanted them under lock and key.
So anyway, the father moved away recently. They became separated. And this is what we`ve got.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Janet in Florida. Hi, Janet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I`m just wondering what -- did this boy have any kind of behavioral problems? I mean, who shoots their mother?
GRACE: Good question. Good question because when I first went into the case, David Lohr, I really believed this was a gift given to him as a Christmas toy and that he was playing with it and he shot his mom. But what do we know about prior history of the little boy? And I don`t mean criminal, I mean any prior incidents of behavioral problems at school, at home? What do we know?
LOHR: Yes. He was involved in some incidents at school. There was an incident on the school bus where he had some problems with a bus driver. And then there was actually an incident involving his principal, where he`d hit him in the face with a dustpan. As a result of that, he was placed into a special school for children with behavioral problems.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tell them to come as fast as they can!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know, but...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I shot my mom!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Huh?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I shot her with the gun!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You shot your mom?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, the little boy has shot his mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s dead!
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, what is your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My daughter just got shot in the head.
911 OPERATOR: Where at?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s at the house.
911 OPERATOR: Where`s her house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The garage (INAUDIBLE) in the garage.
911 OPERATOR: She`s in the garage?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a garage house.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Do you know the address?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, God!
911 OPERATOR: What`s the address?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 3 -- no, 131 -- oh, I don`t know!
911 OPERATOR: What road?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Township Road.
911 OPERATOR: OK. What`s your name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Beulah Mike. I`m my daughter`s...
911 OPERATOR: What is your name?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Beulah (INAUDIBLE) Mike.
911 OPERATOR: Beulah...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mike!
911 OPERATOR: OK. How old is your daughter?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s 46.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No!
911 OPERATOR: You were with her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I wasn`t! I was in the bathroom inside.
911 OPERATOR: All right, Beulah. Hold on here a minute. Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where`s the kids at? Hurry! Hurry! Hurry! Hurry up!
911 OPERATOR: Beulah?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK, did you think of her address because I need to get a squad there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh!
911 OPERATOR: Is there a house phone in the house?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there a -- he uses my phone.
911 OPERATOR: OK. Do you have a cell phone or what there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a cell phone.
911 OPERATOR: Cell phone. OK. I`m going to get some help there, all right, Beulah?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I get calls from the house phone to my cell phone.
911 OPERATOR: OK, Beulah. I`m going to get some help there, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just tell them the gun, where the gun`s at and all that.
911 OPERATOR: I`ll get them there. I`m going to go, OK?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
911 OPERATOR: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: `Bye.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: You heard one of two 911 calls. This is extremely rare. Breaking news tonight. For those of you joining us, a 10-year-old little boy -- what we first believed to be an accidental shooting, not so much anymore -- shoots his mother in the head execution-style.
We are taking your calls, but first a special guest joining us from Holmesville, Ohio, Sheriff Timothy Zimmerly. He`s the Holmes County sheriff. Sheriff, thank you for being with us. Have you ever seen a case like this before?
SHERIFF TIMOTHY ZIMMERLY, HOLMES CTY. (via telephone): Thank you, Nancy. No, I haven`t. This is the first time for me.
GRACE: You know, Sheriff, when I was a prosecutor, one of the very first tours of duty the elected DA gave us was to go prosecute in juvenile because you prosecute -- there`s no jury. The rules of evidence are relaxed, to say the very least, and you really cut your teeth in juvenile court. But this is the kind of a case that could very easily be bound over to adult court. When you first learned of the case, what did you think, Sheriff?
ZIMMERLY: Well, I was very shocked, to say the least. We`ve had several homicides in the past years, but of course, never involving a 10- year-old before.
GRACE: Sheriff, what, if anything, did the 10-year-old say about shooting his mom?
ZIMMERLY: He basically just made a statement that he was very upset with his mother, very mad, and loaded the gun and pointed it towards her and shot.
GRACE: Oh! You know, there`s no way around it, he intended to shoot her. Sheriff, you know, I just had naturally assumed -- and I was wrong to do it -- that this had been some type of a horrible accident that had occurred with a Christmas gift. I was frankly angry that the child had been given a gun, which I still am. But Sheriff, is it true the boy had four guns over his bed?
ZIMMERLY: He actually had three .22 rifles, one shotgun and two air, like, BB or pellet guns.
GRACE: Joining us, special guest, Sheriff Timothy Zimmerly. He is the elected sheriff in Holmesville, Ohio, that has handled the investigation into this case, a 46-year-old mom of four found dead face down on her living room floor. The killer, allegedly her 10-year-old little boy.
Sheriff, what about the other children? I know one of the daughters was there and witnessed it. Where were the others?
ZIMMERLY: She was the only one else at the house. The one that witnessed it is 15 years old, and she is the only witness to it.
GRACE: Oh! A mother of four! We are taking your calls. Out to Mark in Michigan. Hi, Mark.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nancy, I know he was only 10, but what`s the likelihood of him being tried as an adult? I mean, I think he should get the death penalty.
GRACE: OK, Mark, the likelihood that he`ll be tried as an adult -- it`s very, very possible with this degree of crime. It`s called a designated felony, Mark in Michigan. And the way it works is this in most jurisdictions. There are certain designated felonies. And I`m not talking about theft by shoplifting or stealing a car. I`m talking about murder, rape, arson, aggravated assault, sodomy. Those type of cases fall into a category called designated felonies, and they can be bound over by the juvenile judge to adult court. As far as the death penalty, Mark, you`re out of luck.
Unleash the lawyers. Ray Giudice, Atlanta, Alex Sanchez, New York, and special guest Ken Patowitz (ph), former homicide prosecutor, handled a similar case out of Florida. Ray Giudice, the Supremes -- no death penalty now 18 and under, correct?
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right, Nancy. There won`t be a death penalty case under any circumstances. To move this case up to an adult court, probably a superior court, the DA`s got to make a motion for a hearing to have the child adjudicated and tried as an adult.
GRACE: Everyone, for those of you just joining us, a stunning case, a mom of four found dead on her living room floor, shot execution style, the alleged perp, her 10-year-old little boy. Tonight we find out he was angry and pointed it at his mother. This was no accident.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, where is your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lady just got shot in the head here. I think you guys already got the call, but I`m not sure.
911 OPERATOR: OK. I need an address.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Township Road and 511.
911 OPERATOR: Are you with her now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m a neighbor. I`m over here. She`s bleeding from her head.
911 OPERATOR: Is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, she`s bleeding.
911 OPERATOR: Is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s -- I don`t -- I don`t think -- no. I couldn`t feel a pulse.
911 OPERATOR: What`s your name?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mark. I`m an across the street neighbor.
911 OPERATOR: Mark what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: McLachlan (ph).
911 OPERATOR: OK. You`re with her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not right now, but I`m outside the door, yes.
911 OPERATOR: OK. You don`t think she`s breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Listen, the neighbors came over and got me, said the mom got shot in the head. (INAUDIBLE) she was in the same position.
911 OPERATOR: OK, and you went outside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) I got the pulse on her arm, but I can`t feel one.
911 OPERATOR: OK, give me your phone number.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (DELETED)
911 OPERATOR: OK, Mark.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They just come over and got me.
911 OPERATOR: Yeah. We`ve got some help on the way there, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I hope so because...
911 OPERATOR: OK. They`re coming.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
911 OPERATOR: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: We`re taking your calls live. I wanted to go back to David Lohr, crime reporter with AOLnews.com. David, I don`t quite understand what the argument was about. Now, Christine Pratt tells us it`s about doing chores. But how did it culminate? Had it been simmering? Had it been ongoing? What do we know?
LOHR: Well, according to family members and people who live in the neighborhood, the kid just always had behavioral problems. He didn`t want to listen to his mother. You know, I`m with his father recently leaving, it probably exacerbated that. And when she asked him to go outside and do his chores, get some wood for the fireplace, apparently he just snapped.
GRACE: I want to go back to Sheriff Timothy Zimmerly, the elected sheriff in Holmesville, Ohio. What about -- and I hate to say his history because he`s only 10 years old. It`s hard to refer to a 10-year-old as having a history. But it`s kind of hard for me to take in a kid grabbing a dustpan and beating the school principal in the face and the chest.
ZIMMERLY: Yes. And that`s -- that was reported to us from the school. A report was taken and referred to the prosecutor for charges.
GRACE: And what became of that case?
ZIMMERLY: I don`t know. It was sent to the prosecutor for charges, and that`s the last I heard.
GRACE: Now, Sheriff, is it true that in your jurisdiction, a 10-year- old cannot be tried as an adult?
ZIMMERLY: According to the prosecutor, he is not going to try him as an adult.
GRACE: So he`s not going to, or under law he is not able to?
ZIMMERLY: Well, I guess that`s a question for our prosecutor. But he`s...
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: And is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No!
911 OPERATOR: You were with her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I wasn`t! I was in the bathroom inside!
911 OPERATOR: All right, Beulah. Hold on here a minute. Hold on.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: 911, what is your emergency?
SHANNON ANDERSON, CALLER: Hi, my name is Shannon Anderson and I live at Township Road 511, Big Prairie, and the neighbor`s kid just came down. I guess there`s an emergency at the kid`s house and they need to have the cops up there and a squad car.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Do you know what happened?
ANDERSON: She`s asking what happened. Is there -- can I get your address?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know.
ANDERSON: You don`t know your address?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: I want to no what happened, tell him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come as fast as they can.
ANDERSON: I know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I shot my mom.
ANDERSON: Huh?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I shot her with a gun.
ANDERSON: You shot your mom?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
ANDERSON: OK. The little boy shot his mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s dead.
SHAWNA MCVAY, VICTIM`S DAUGHTER: I heard a shot and then mom, she just looked at me and fell to the ground. He was just like standing there, like looking at her body, and then pointed the gun at me. And then I like begged him not to like shoot me. And then he ran down to the neighbor`s and he told them to call 911.
JOSHUA MIKE, VICTIM`S SON: We are a country family, guns and stuff around the house. It`s just part of our family. Come back on us. My mother was the best mother I could ask for, anyone could ask for. I know my brother didn`t mean to kill his mama.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: That is from ABC`s "Good Morning America."
Straight back out to Rupa Mikkilineni. For those of you just joining us, a very disturbing case, extremely rare. A 46-year-old mom found dead on her living room floor, shot execution style, a shot to the head. The perpetrator, her 10-year-old little boy shot with a Christmas present.
We are taking your calls, but to you, Rupa, there were three 911 calls. What were they?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. We had the first 911 call, Nancy, which was the neighbor. The boy -- the little boy shot his mother, ran out to the neighbor`s house and basically told her that he had shot his mother. She called 911. And you can hear the little boy in the background saying, I shot her, I shot her with a gun, she`s dead.
Then we have another 911 call coming straight from the home where the mother was laying dead. And this is the grandmother of the boy. This is McVay`s mother, this is the victim`s mother, calling 911 saying the -- more or less the same thing, that her daughter had been shot. They needed an ambulance.
And then you have another 911 call with another neighbor who`d come to the home and as you heard just now, a male neighbor was talking about being in the doorway and calling 911 requesting ambulance aid.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. I want to go to Andrew J. Scott in Orlando. Hold on.
Andrew Scott, former chief of police, Boca Raton, president, AJS Consulting, talk to me, explain to me about a .22. It`s a long gun, right?
ANDREW J. SCOTT, FMR. CHIEF OF POLICE, BOCA RATON, FL.; PRESIDENT, AJS CONSULTING: Yes, absolutely. It`s a .22 rifle. And I have one with me I brought to the studio. And I wanted to show the viewers that this take some very deliberate actions on the part of the shooter to engage and load and fire.
You have a magazine that you have to load and then you put it in there. And then you have to take the firearm off of its safety, and then you have to consciously bolt action, pull it back. And then load the bullet into the chamber and then pull the trigger.
So each step is -- each step is a little deliberate. In fact it`s very deliberate. And you have to take these steps and these were what was done prior to the shooting taking place. And this is a type of firearm where you just don`t point and shoot. You literally have to deliberately aim the firearm and hit your target.
GRACE: OK. Andrew Scott, go with it through me in a nutshell one more time what you have to do to shoot a .22 long gun.
SCOTT: Yes. With regards to this firearm, you have to do several deliberate steps. You have to load the magazine which is located here. And then you have to un-cock the safety and put it into a firing mode. And then you have to release the bolt action so the bullet goes up into the chamber.
And then you put the bolt action back and then the firearm is ready to fire. And then you have to deliberately point the firearm and shoot your target. This is not one of those things where you just point the firearm and you shoot it. You deliberately have to make an intended target hit. And it appears that`s what might have happened in this incident.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Ken Padowitz, Raymond Giudice, Alex Sanchez.
First to special guest, Ken Padowitz, who prosecuted the Lionel Tate case out of Florida. A young boy who was charged with murdering 6-year-old Tiffany Eunick in Broward County. He was prosecuted as adult but hey, don`t cry for Tate. The minute he got out he did an armed robbery on a pizza delivery guy. He`s back in jail so don`t be too upset that a youth was treated as an adult.
You know those aren`t very good facts for this little boy, Ken Padowitz. What Scott is showing us he had to go through in order to shoot his own mother.
KEN PADOWITZ, FORMER HOMICIDE PROSECUTOR, HANDLED LIONEL TATE CASE: Well, Nancy, this is a terrible tragedy that`s been described. But it`s more than a tragedy. What`s been described is a crime. And specifically what we`re talking about, Nancy, is a description of a first-degree murder.
Somebody had to take the time and energy to go get this weapon to load it, to do those items and things to the gun to make it operational, and then to come back out to the location where his mom was, point it in her -- in her general direction and pull that trigger.
We`re talking about a first-degree murder, a young boy committing a very adult like crime.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Pete in Florida. Hi, Pete.
PETER, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Is this Nancy?
GRACE: Yes. Hi, Pete. You`re on the air. What`s your question, Pete?
PETE: Hi, Nancy. My wife just loves your show. And I`m just sitting here with her watching. And I just had to call in. I mean he`s just a kid. He`s 10 years old. He needs counseling and stricter parents and some probation. But don`t be so hard on him.
GRACE: Have you lost your mind?
PETE: He`s 10.
GRACE: Take a look at what happened to Lionel Tate. Look at him. The minute he got out of jail, he tried to gun down a pizza delivery guy.
PETE: He`s only 10.
GRACE: This -- OK, first of all --
PETE: He don`t know any better.
GRACE: I know that. You know my concern is, Pete in Florida, is that you may be right. I don`t believe the little boy really understands what he has done. I know he said I shot my mom, I shot my mom, she`s dead. I know that, but I don`t know that he understands the significance.
I don`t know that he doesn`t think his mom might come back the next day. I don`t know that he understands the finality of the shooting, but regardless, Pete in Florida, we must follow the law.
And Pete, you`ll be happy to know that I`ve just learned in this jurisdiction he cannot be treated as an adult because you got to be 14. So we`re going to find out just the maximum he may get. It may be 18 months in juvenile jail.
Back to the lawyers, Kim Padowitz, Ray Giudice, Alex Sanchez.
Weigh in, Giudice.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I think, as Scott just pointed out, the premeditation, as we always talked on this show. Malice and forethought can take place in a split second. We`ve got a very deliberate act of loading and arming this weapon. It`s going to be a problem for the defense, premeditation.
GRACE: What about it, Sanchez?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know I don`t know why anybody is surprised that something like this has occurred. We have a troubled kid with behavioral problems. He has an open cases for attacking a vice principal. Someone is giving this kid loaded guns, not once, several guns, bullets, pellet guns.
And his mother for some reason did not have the power herself to take the guns and secure them somewhere.
GRACE: Hey, hey, hey --
SANCHEZ: Is it any real surprise that this has occurred?
GRACE: Wait. Wait. Don`t blame the mom. She`s dead.
SANCHEZ: But how come she`s -- yes, you know --
GRACE: She`s the one asking the father not to give him the gun. You don`t know the dynamics.
SANCHEZ: But the guns -- the guns are in her house, Nancy. Shouldn`t she have taken the guns and say look, we have a troubled kid?
GRACE: Yes.
SANCHEZ: Let me lock them in a box somewhere.
GRACE: But you know --
SANCHEZ: I`m sorry she`s dead.
GRACE: -- you`re sitting up there with your Park Avenue law practice, saying, could have, would have, should have, what mommy should have done. Half way across the country. You know what? I`m not all that impressed but thanks for all the input and the mudslinging at mommy, Alex. I`m sure she`s listening from heaven right now.
SANCHEZ: No -- no mudslinging.
GRACE: Yes, I hear you.
SANCHEZ: She needs -- bear some responsibility. Sorry.
GRACE: Leslie, often, we`re surprised because it`s so rarely happens, Leslie.
DR. LESLIE AUSTIN, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right. This is a case where everybody was irresponsible with this little boy who should never have been given guns unsupervised. They should never have been available. And I agree with you, I don`t think he understands the intent to kill. He does the intent to shoot. And those are two different things.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: And is she breathing?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: You were with her?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I wasn`t. I was in the bathroom inside.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: All right, Beulah. Hold on here a minute. Hold on.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Dr. Robert Kaufmann, doctor of internal medicine. The mom was shot in the head by her 10-year-old little boy. Was there really any way she could have been saved, Dr. Kaufmann?
DR. ROBERT KAUFMANN, M.D., INTERNAL MEDICINE: There`s no way she could have been saved because it sounded like she died instantly. All you have to do is hit the part of the brain that tells you to stop breathing or hit a major blood vessel. And unfortunately, if you do survive, you`re going to have probably permanent brain damage.
GRACE: So there`s no way to survive a shot to the head?
KAUFMANN: No, people have survived shots to the head. It just depends --
GRACE: Well, I mean without any type of irreversible injury?
KAUFMANN: Very unlikely that would happen. Ninety-nine percent of the time, there`s always here -- one story of somebody who survived it, but it certainly happens very, very rarely.
GRACE: Back to Christine Pratt, reporter of "Wooster Daily Record," is there any way the 10-year-old can bond out, for instance?
CHRISTINE PRATT, REPORTER, "WOOSTER DAILY RECORD": It`s really understanding that the juvenile court maintains jurisdiction over his custody. Right now --
GRACE: Can he bond out? Can he make bond?
PRATT: It`s up to the discretion of the juvenile judge as to whether or not he remains incarcerated at the juvenile center.
GRACE: OK. Got it. What I`m trying to find out, Rupa, is, are they going to have a bond hearing or has there been a bond hearing? Has a bond been set or are they regarding this as no bond?
MIKKILINENI: Nancy, he was in court on Monday. We know that but we don`t know anything beyond that. They are not saying.
GRACE: OK. Yes, you know what, Christine? You`re right. This is going to be a juvenile matter. And they keep that entirely secretive. There`s no way that we could find out right now regarding juvenile matters because they are kept, unlike adult crimes where you have a right to know everything that`s going on in court.
Christine Pratt with the "Wooster Daily Record" is right. This is going to be shrouded in secrecy. Now I do know that there is a serious youthful offender act that jurisdiction, whereby if he`s treated that way, as a serious youthful offender, he could be behind bars minimum of 15 years.
We`re waiting to find out what`s going to happen in this highly unusual case. But right now, I`m taking you to another story.
A father, a husband, a state trooper, dead. Why? Because some judge lets out a drug trafficker, a repeat offender, and after a minor traffic violation, he shoots the trooper dead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: These are the many faces of 30-year-old Gregory Favors.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Favors is accused of shooting Georgia state trooper Chadwick LeCroix in the face.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shots were fired. Our trooper is deceased because of those wounds.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Following a police chase through the streets of Atlanta.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Agent says as LeCroix approached, Favors opened fire.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: These are his mug shots taken at Fulton County Jail when police arrested Favors, get this, 19 different times over the past 11 years.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Out on the street, after so many arrests.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Arrested 19 other times.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our families lost a loved one.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: With his criminal history, why was Favors out of jail?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The violator has been identified. We do have a suspect in custody at this time. A small chase ensued where the violator wrecked. Shots were fired. Our trooper was struck multiple times and is deceased because of those wounds.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls tonight. I am talking about Trooper First Class Chadwick LeCroix, 38, died after being shot in the neck, multiple gunshots fired after a simple traffic violation.
To Eric Jens, reporter, WRGA News Radio, what happened and why was Favors, who is a drug trafficker -- he`s got nearly 20 entries in his criminal history, that I know of. All right? That`s just on the local criminal rap sheet. What about his NCIC, a rap sheet? What was he doing out?
ERIC JENS, REPORTER, WRGA NEWS RADIO: Yes, that`s the question everybody wants to know tonight, Nancy. And of course there`s a lot of finger pointing either way. And you know, in retrospect --
GRACE: Well, there should be. There should be finger pointing either way. A trooper is dead. A lawman is dead, Eric Jens, because some jackass let him off free.
JENS: Well, and then it`s a question of whether it was officer`s responsibility to do something that perhaps they didn`t do or the justice system. And everybody is trying to correct those mistakes so that something like this doesn`t happen again.
GRACE: OK. How can you tell me, Eric Jens, it was a mistake when you`ve got to have a hearing for a bond to be set? This guy was behind bars on yet another offense and he was granted a bond and he walked out.
Did you see this, Eric Jens? Have you seen all of his mug shots?
JENS: I did in fact. There are -- there`s a legal system that everybody has to follow as close as they can. And in Fulton County, there`s something called the Noncomplex Criminal Court Division which has been operating for some time now and now they`re all taking another look at it and saying hey, there`s somebody who`s been arrested at least 17 times albeit not for a violent felony in this case, but is this somebody that we can trust to have out on the street?
GRACE: Now maybe I`m wrong, Eric Jens, but doesn`t he have a drug trafficking arrest in his history? That`s not violent enough for you? Drug trafficking?
JENS: No, it does not fit the -- it does not fit the definition as it has been set to this point. And as you mentioned, you know, obviously these are serious felonies, drugs and weapons, but they did not meet the criteria to keep him in custody.
GRACE: Well now, he is meeting the criteria of the Georgia death penalty.
Unleash the lawyers. Alex Sanchez, Raymond Giudice. Weigh in, Sanchez.
SANCHEZ: You know a lot of people are criticizing the judges for letting him go on the last case. But the fact of the matter is the police officer -- one of the police officers who arrested him on the last case did not show up for a probable cause hearing. And because of that, the judge said, listen, I`m constraint to release this guy. So you know there`s plenty of blame to go around at this point. And I`m not so certain the police are blameless here.
GRACE: Let me tell you something, Mr. Sanchez. When a cop is out on the street and can`t come to a probable cause hearing, a PC hearing, that cause, that cause hearing can be delayed. Just because a witness does not show up does not mean a judge has to grant bond.
SANCHEZ: Right.
GRACE: And what I believe you`re doing is trying to blame it on another cop.
SANCHEZ: No, but the district attorney --
GRACE: Because he couldn`t make it to the hearing.
SANCHEZ: At the probable cause hearing, the district attorney has to request that there be a delay. And I don`t know if the district attorney made any request to delay that hearing and the judge says listen, what am I going to do? My hands are tied. I have to release him.
GRACE: His hands were not tied. Just please stop saying that. That is a fallacy. That is not true. Just because a witness doesn`t show for a probable cause hearing does not mean the perpetrator gets released. That is -- you name me in the criminal code or the Constitution where that is written.
SANCHEZ: No, in the criminal code --
GRACE: And I`m timing you right now.
SANCHEZ: The criminal code of that jurisdiction, that is the law. And what are judges supposed to do, Nancy?
GRACE: That is not -- put Sanchez up.
SANCHEZ: What are judges supposed to do? Ignore the law?
GRACE: That`s not the law. That is not the law. When a witness doesn`t show up, that you automatically have to release the perpetrator. That is not true.
SANCHEZ: Well, I`m sure the judge took careful deliberation before releasing this felon. But the fact is --
GRACE: OK, weigh in, Giudice.
SANCHEZ: -- the cop didn`t show up as he`s supposed to.
GIUDICE: Well, what`s required is when there is a no warrant in this case and there wasn`t a warrant and no one shows, the judge must set a bond within 48 hours. The issue here and the problem here is that this was a signature bond. No -- initially it was $15,000. He was allowed to sign his recognizance bond and walked out.
It`s not the fact that a bond was set.
GRACE: OK. Ray, Ray. Ray.
GIUDICE: It`s that a signature bond.
GRACE: Ray, I know you`re correct.
GIUDICE: Yes.
GRACE: Let me break it down.
GIUDICE: Right.
GRACE: The judge gave him a bond, sign your own bond. He didn`t even have to put any money up. He signed a piece of paper and he walked out and gunned down a Trooper Chadwick LeCroix.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. The first Georgia state trooper to die in the line of duty over 25 years. Chadwick LeCroix dead in the line of duty over a traffic offense after a judge lets a thug with a rap sheet as long as the interstate walk free.
John in New Jersey, what`s your question?
JOHN, CALLER FROM NEW JERSEY: Hi, Nancy. I don`t even know what`s wrong with our system. I don`t understand. But listen, my question is this. After the high-speed chase, why wasn`t there backup for the officer? And there`s --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: That is a great question, John in New Jersey.
What about it, Eric Jens? Where was the backup?
JENS: Well, in this case, what he was doing was making what seemed like a simple traffic stop. That was a burned-out headlight on the Mazda 6. And it wasn`t until --
GRACE: But it turned into a chase.
JENS: It turned into a short chase. He crashed into a mailbox. And by all accounts, LeCroix exited his patrol vehicle and had no idea he was seconds later about to be met by fatal gunfire.
GRACE: So he didn`t really have time to call for backup, is that what you`re telling me? Or was the call not -- there were no response to a call for backup?
JENS: I -- you know, he probably radioed something in. I don`t know that for a fact at this point. But there was no reason to believe that he was going to be met with this kind of force.
GRACE: But you know what, Eric Jens, WRGA, the reality is that it all happened so force, backup would not even have had time to get there.
John in New Jersey is right. On a high-speed chase you call for backup. I don`t think they would have time to get there.
Out to Julie in New Jersey. Hi, Julie.
JULIE, CALLER FROM NEW JERSEY: Hello, who are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
JULIE: Hi. Were there warrants out on this man before? Did they know he was this dangerous?
GRACE: Good question. Eric Jens, what do we know?
JENS: Well, any kind of warrant that would have been out at this point would have been just a failure to appear because he did have a court date that he failed to appear at earlier that same day.
GRACE: Everyone, Georgia state trooper Chadwick LeCroix. Chadwick LeCroix, 38, a father of two, dead in the line of duty.
Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Matthew Deckard, 29, Elizabeth Town, Kentucky, a second tour killed Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, two Purple Hearts, two National Defense Service Medals, loved hunting, fishing, working on cars. Lives behind parents Glen and Kathy, sister Michelle, brother Michael, wife, Angela, three children, Michaela, Noah and Austin.
Matthew Deckard, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
