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JOY BEHAR SHOW

Michael Jackson Death Hearings; Autism Study: a Fraud?; The Sage Russell Simmons; The Barr Essentials

Aired January 6, 2011 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: You know this week new House Speaker John Boehner got teary eyed again. So many crying jags; I`m actually starting to worry about this poor guy. You know, so we consulted a team of experts. Dr. Gupta, Dr. Phil, Dr. Oz, Dr. Pepper; they all agreed the man is going through menopause. He`s not orange, he is having hot flashes. Say "God forbid".

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW a key witness testifies against Michael Jackson`s Dr. Conrad Murray, the only person charged in the king of pop`s death. So did Murray frantically hide evidence once the legend was dead?

Then Kathy Griffin turns her sights on Willow Palin. But is that ok? Joy talks to Roseanne Barr about crossing the line in comedy.

Plus music mogul, Russell Simmons gives Joy his super rich secret.

That and more starting right now.

BEHAR: New testimony in the pre-trial hearing of Dr. Conrad Murray who was charged with involuntary manslaughter in the June, 2009 death of Michael Jackson appears pretty damaging for the doctor.

Here to discuss today`s developments are Mark Geragos, noted defense attorney who once defended Michael Jackson; Dr. Cathleen London, board certified family medicine physician and assistant professor at New York Presbyterian Weill Cornell; and Tony Potts weekend co-host and correspondent for "Access Hollywood".

Ok Tony let me start with you. What is the latest on this case?

TONY POTTS, WEEKEND CO-HOST, "ACCESS: HOLLYWOOD": Well, Joy, overlooking these phone records that given today, apparently Dr. Murray has two phones and they brought -- the prosecution, they brought in a couple of people from the phone companies to detail what happened. What is interesting to note here is they want to know who did Dr. Murray talk to and why? There is something that happened at 11:51 a.m. on the day Michael died. He had an 11-minute phone call to another area code. Not sure what that was about.

Then after that at some point it looks like Dr. Murray according to testimony today he ended that call at 12:02. It was his phone that hung up on that one. Shortly thereafter he calls in downstairs. Something is wrong with Michael. But at 12:12 he calls area code 562 for about a minute and then at 12:15 he also calls another area code for a minute.

I think what is happening here is the prosecution is trying to set up, you know, a kind of timeline of what`s going on and where the doctor`s, you know, where the doctor`s discretion is and what he`s doing.

Quickly, though, I do hear -- I heard a few minutes ago that tomorrow we may have Dr. Murray`s girlfriend Nicole Alvarez called on the stand because it`s one of those phone calls the speculation is that he was actually on the phone with her while all of this was going on, Joy.

BEHAR: I see. But a paramedic who was there testified that Dr. Murray hid vials of anesthetics before help arrived. That sounds pretty damaging that he was hiding vials of the stuff. Isn`t it?

POTTS: Well, Joy, that`s Richard -- yes, that`s Richard Cena (ph). He`s a firefighter; he has 25 years as a paramedic. He`s been on many scenes. He walks in and yesterday in court he comes in and says I walk in the room and he says, quote, "It didn`t feel right." This is a man who has been on many chaotic scenes when called for an emergency.

He said he saw a thin, pale patient, a patient to him that looked like a hospice patient. He asked Dr. Murray repeatedly is he on any medication? He said, no. Just only Lorazepam to help him sleep. Meanwhile he looks over and he sees an iv thing there. Doesn`t see though a heart monitor and also sees Dr. Murray putting something, vials of whatever, into various bags.

BEHAR: Mark, isn`t that damaging to the doctor? That kind of evidence or hearsay whatever you want to call it?

Mark Geragos, Well, it`s evidence and it`s certainly not helpful but at the same time you have a paramedic who is saying he looked like a hospice patient. And then you`re going to have other people who say the night before or the day before he was up there and they`ve got film of him dancing and looking seemingly very athletic so there seems to be a disconnect there.

BEHAR: That`s true.

GERAGOS: Obviously, though, collecting the evidence he has to have some kind of an explanation for that. Maybe his argument is going to be I don`t want it out here. I don`t want people traipsing through here. This is stuff that`s highly toxic or has to be, I`ve got a duty to keep an eye on it. So I`m sure he`s going to have some explanation for that.

I don`t ever get the impression that this --

BEHAR: Doesn`t look good.

GERAGOS: Yes, it doesn`t look good but I don`t get the impression this guy wanted to do harm to Michael. Unfortunately, obviously Michael died. That`s -- he was the last man standing.

BEHAR: Yes. That`s right. This guy, Dr. London, I mean, this doctor, something odd about him; he said that he didn`t know how to do CPR. The guy is a cardiologist. Isn`t that sort of elementary, my dear Watson, CPR?

CATHLEEN LONDON, NEW YORK PRESBYTERIAN/WEILL CORNELL: Well, CPR starts even before you go to medical school, you know. You`ve known that long before.

I have more of an issue with the -- whether he was trying to do harm or not using Propofol in this way is so beyond the standard of medical care. It`s outrageous. Absolutely.

BEHAR: Well, somebody told me that they had it the other day for a colonoscopy.

LONDON: Correct.

BEHAR: But that is with an anesthesiologist.

LONDON: Correct. If you even look at the drug labeling it is only to be administered when there is monitoring by someone trained in anesthesia.

BEHAR: Would he say that he is trained in anesthesia this guy Murray?

LONDON: He can`t. He can`t. He is not an anesthesiologist.

BEHAR: Then he was doing that. Go ahead. Who`s speaking?

POTTS: I think Dr. London makes a good point. Tony -- Dr. London makes a good point because I think what is going to happen here is you`re talking about administering the drug. It seems by being in the courtroom and seeing where the defense is going with this they keep using the word drug addict and there is speculation.

We`ve been talking and it seems that they may try to say and it may seem outlandish to some that at some point Michael woke up and administered it himself while Dr. Murray was not there. And therefore Dr. Murray is not --

BEHAR: Can do you that, Dr. London? Can you administer it yourself?

LONDON: If you are already hooked up and it`s on its way potentially. There are cases of its misuse being done that way by anesthesiologists and others but one of the other issues he had him on a benzodiazepine. He had him on Lorazepam. The two interact --

BEHAR: What are those? What are those?

LONDON: so benzodiazepines are drugs that you take, or sedatives, you take them for anxiety, for different things; for sleep, for all different things.

BEHAR: Yes.

LONDON: They also cause depression of your brain and other things and it`s a known interaction with Propofol so using them together is questionable particularly in an unmonitored situation. And even if we go with this premise that Michael gave himself that final dose, which I don`t even want to pretend to understand that. The fact that he even administered it, the fact that he supplied it, if we`re saying that Michael is a drug addict, as physicians we have an obligation to protect our patients from themselves.

And I think this is an example of not just the only one but this is an example of a doctor being star struck.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Mark Geragos just said that he didn`t think he wanted -- you just said he didn`t want to harm Michael. Maybe he is just incompetent.

GERAGOS: Well, you know, let`s distinguish between what a medical board might do in an administrative hearing and a criminal court. There is a little bit of irony that that preliminary hearing is happening 50 feet away from the hallway in the courtroom where a judge just threw out all of the most serious convictions in the Anna Nicole case. This is a criminal case.

Yes, you could make an argument that this guy was clearly beyond the pale in a -- as to what a doctor should do but to attach criminal liability is a whole different set of circumstances and it`s not easy.

BEHAR: What do you say to that?

POTTS: Yes. And also one thing different, Mark -- hold on Mark. One thing different than that is that when they scoured the room when Anna Nicole Smith died there was -- there were not paramedics who came in and saw a lot of stuff there. So there isn`t paramedic testimony that talks about specific drugs and things that Howard K. Stern allegedly and Eroshevich, Dr. Eroshevich and Sandeep Kapoor were putting away or hiding.

It`s a little different, but yes, I think it`s ironic. You`re right. today, down in a courtroom 50 feet away it happened.

(CROSSTALK)

LONDON: At the same time this is different also because he didn`t do what he should do as a physician. He wasn`t administering CPR when they got there, he didn`t call 911 right away.

BEHAR: Right.

LONDON: These are obligations. BEHAR: And why did he tell the paramedic to hide the vials? That really makes him look guilty right there.

LONDON: And in terms of him giving it to himself, you know, if he was already on the Lorazepam and he had the Propofol the other thing is if he has been on Propofol all night then you don`t come out of anesthesia that quickly and especially to be awake enough to give yourself another dose?

BEHAR: Yes. Ok.

POTTS: Let me ask -- Dr. Conrad -- real quick, real quick. There was a condom catheter that the paramedics said was on Michael Jackson`s penis and what have you and that is done if I`m not mistaken when people were on Propofol, when they`re anesthesized to an extent.

LONDON: Correct.

POTTS: Because they may lose bodily fluids. If he already had that on there he wouldn`t have administered it himself, correct? So he would have to have been on the Propofol prior to that. So that doesn`t wash either. Right?

LONDON: And that is exactly it. He had to be too sedated to be able to give it to himself.

BEHAR: Yes. I got what you mean.

This is all a preliminary hearing to see if it will go to trial. Does it seem like it will be sent to trial? Mark?

GERAGOS: Well, can I tell you something? You know what the standard for a preliminary hearing in California is? Is my client breathing? If your client is breathing you`re going to go to trial.

BEHAR: Ok.

POTTS: Also, and Mark`s right. But real quick, I`ve been in a lot of courtrooms as well but obviously Mark has much more experience in this than I am. But I can tell you that a lot of times in pre-trial hearings the defense doesn`t give all their greatest stuff. You don`t want to give it all away to a certain extent.

This is so powerful just in pre-trial I can`t even imagine what they`re going to do if it actually goes over to trial.

BEHAR: But can he have a fair trial? The question is can he have a fair trial?

POTTS: Yes.

BEHAR: There is a lot of publicity around this; a lot of people who loved Michael Jackson. Do you think he can, Mark?

GERAGOS: Yes, I do. And I think the defense has got some surprises in store.

BEHAR: Ok. Thank you very much everybody. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, the one and only Roseanne Barr drops by to talk about her plans for a possible presidential run in 2012. Now back to Joy.

BEHAR: The findings of a new investigation had millions of parents wondering what to do about vaccinating their kids. The British Medical Journal BMJ says a study linking autism to childhood vaccinations is, quote, "an elaborate fraud". Here now to discuss this further are CNN`s chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta and actor Gary Cole who is the father of an autistic child.

Welcome to the show, guys.

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Thanks Joy.

GARY COLE, ACTOR: Thank you.

BEHAR: Sanjay, this investigation says that, you know what it says. Linking autism to vaccinations is a fraud. What do you think about these new findings?

GUPTA: It`s a really big deal in the world of science. You know, almost since this paper was published as most people know by now since `98 there`s been a lot of scrutiny. The paper was retracted early last year in 2010 which was in and of itself a big deal but it was retracted because they said look, the science wasn`t good. There were some unethical things done.

BEHAR: Like what?

GUPTA: Well, they for example paid some of the children to be part of the study. In science you`re supposed to randomize children, you know, pick them at random. And they said that Dr. Wakefield actually hand-chose specific children to be part of the study which, you know, gives the idea that maybe he was gaming the results to some extent. That is the allegation.

BEHAR: He also only had 12 children involved and I understand that seven of them had pre-existing tendencies towards autism and the rest of them had no symptoms whatsoever.

GUPTA: That was the -- exactly the concern. If you`re not randomly choosing children you all of a sudden, first of all it was a small study. A remarkably small study concerning how much attention it received. But you`re absolutely right.

If you already have an idea of what the symptoms children have and hand pick them for that reason it biases the whole result.

BEHAR: Well, then why did this study get any kind of traction in the first place?

GUPTA: You are asking an important question which I think sort of speaks to the oversight I think of the peer review process in general in medicine and probably oversight in all kinds of different fields. It`s a great, legitimate question, Joy.

"The Lancet" where this got published originally is a well respected journal but I think in retrospect, you know, several of the authors of this paper actually took their names off the paper. The letters to the editor about the paper were always critical about that or mostly critical so it`s a good question. I don`t know why it got published or what exactly the peer review process, what was done there on that paper.

BEHAR: Ok. Gary, you have a daughter who is autistic, unfortunately. Did you have her vaccinated?

COLE: Yes, I did.

BEHAR: You did. Do you think there is a link?

COLE: Yes, I do.

BEHAR: Between autism and the vaccines?

COLE: Well, I`m not a doctor so I`m not going to speak to that. All I can tell you is that we had what we feel was some kind of -- it was a violent reaction 24 hours around the time of her vaccination. I don`t know if it has any bearing on what happened to her or if it`s just part of a cocktail or not.

But I just think, you know, to me this argument`s been going on a long time. It doesn`t seem to be anything new to me and when it turns into torches and pitch forks and people take sides and two doctors shaking their fists at each other it`s a lot of good TV but doesn`t really give us a lot of answers.

You know, it seems to freeze the discussion about vaccine safety which I don`t know is a great idea. I don`t know either way. I`m not qualified to comment on what the, what it does or does not do.

BEHAR: I hear what you`re saying. I don`t think that it`s doctors necessarily just fighting with each other. To me Dr. Sanjay maybe you can answer that. I think this can open the door to more interest in the topic and maybe get to the bottom of it.

GUPTA: That is exactly right. The question inevitably comes up which is the right question is, what causes autism? And we don`t know the answer to that. If we knew the answer to that it would change this debate. But I think Gary knows and, Joy, you know because this gets discussed a lot this is one of the most extensively studied public health issues probably of our time.

And obviously Dr. Wakefield`s paper we know what has happened with that now according to these new findings but there have been a lot of studies that have not shown a link between vaccines and autism. I think people need to pay attention to that.

BEHAR: One in 70 boys, now, is affected by autism. You know I`m interested, I don`t know if you know the answer, Dr. Gupta, but are there any cross cultural studies? Do they have the same 1 in 70 in Denmark, in Russia, in China? Do you know?

GUPTA: Well, it varies country to country. What I think surprises people here in the United States, specifically, Joy, is that it seems to be more prevalent in parents who are older, who are white, who are more educated and more affluent. That surprises a lot of people. The likelihood of people who fit those demographics having a child with autism is higher than people who don`t have those characteristics.

BEHAR: That is odd. What has education got to do with the physiological thing that happens to a child?

GUPTA: It`s unclear. We don`t know that critical answer to the question, what causes this. Maybe it was a total fluke. Maybe it had something to do with the fact that these parents are more likely to get their child seen by somebody who can diagnose this. Maybe there is a better detection among certain populations in society. Maybe it`s, you know, a lot of people think that this is environmental in some way.

BEHAR: Yes.

GUPTA: But who knows exactly what it is?

BEHAR: What are we supposed to say to parent now? Gary, what are parents supposed to believe at this point in your opinion when you hear these opposing views on this very, very serious subject?

COLE: That`s exactly my point. What is anybody supposed to believe? Because all the data and information I see on both sides seems inconclusive.

I`ll just relate something personally because I don`t want to get into technical aspects. When she had a, what we believed, was a reaction to her vaccine --

BEHAR: What kind of reaction?

COLE: Obvious -- well, pardon the words for television but diarrhea, vomiting.

BEHAR: All right.

COLE: Face swollen up to the point where her eyes closed. And we asked questions and said could it be the vaccine and we were told pretty uniformly it was not that. But we never got an answer really about what caused this reaction.

BEHAR: Because they don`t have an answer, Gary.

COLE: Well, that`s where I sit. So obviously I don`t, I`m skeptical. I`m in show business. I don`t believe anybody.

BEHAR: Ok.

COLE: I`m skeptical.

BEHAR: All right.

COLE: Of either -- of reports and information because I want to know where it came from, who funded it, and if there is an agenda what that is.

BEHAR: Well, that`s a whole -- there`s a lot to read on this particular Dr. Wakefield right now but just yes or no do you think the study was a fraud, Dr. Gupta?

GUPTA: Yes, I think it probably was.

BEHAR: And do you, Gary?

COLE: I can`t say it`s a fraud. I don`t know anything about it.

BEHAR: Ok.

COLE: There is a difference between being wrong and a fraud.

GUPTA: Right.

BEHAR: Ok. All right.

COLE: A fraud suggests that he intentionally did something. Wrong is one thing. They`re saying fraud.

BEHAR: There are a lot of very, very weird things about this particular study that I`ve been reading about. Who funded it and how much he knew and who was involved.

Let`s continue the discussion some other time. But I`m happy that it`s opening up the topic.

Thank you very much, you guys, for joining me.

GUPTA: Thank you, Joy.

BEHAR: Ok.

GUPTA: Thanks Gary.

COLE: Thank you.

BEHAR: And a quick note. The JOY BEHAR SHOW is moving to 10:00 p.m. beginning January 17th. You know what that means, more swearing and full frontal nudity. We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: Hip hop mogul and entrepreneur Russell Simmons spent years creating a multimillion dollar business empire. His new book "Super Rich: A guide to having it all" is not so much about attaining money, mansions, and fancy cars as it is about spiritual well-being.

With me now to talk about it is Russell Simmons.

RUSSELL SIMMONS, ENTREPRENEUR: Hello, Joy.

BEHAR: This is not a get rich quick book.

SIMMONS: No.

BEHAR: What is this?

SIMMONS: I wrote a book a few years ago and it became a best seller and people came to me and told me that it affected them deeply or changed their lives so this book is more of a how to. It`s about the kind of operating for abundance, it`s about giving. I want people to get up and give and not wake up in the morning and decide what they`re going to get.

It`s true that the service thing is, that`s what we`re here for. And the book really based on yoga, sutras and other scripture reminds us of things we already know. We know that happy, sweet, hard-working person attains the most. And this book is about --

BEHAR: Not necessarily.

SIMMONS: Well, you know, it`s over and over again we`re told this and there are so many great examples of it. And in the book of course all the interns that became the presidents around me, all the stories that they would get in the mailroom, or Puffy as the intern, I watched these things happen and I watched them become --

BEHAR: What does Puffy have in common with these other people?

SIMMONS: Well, these are -- Puff was a kid who would do anything you wanted as an intern. He would run anywhere, do anything.

BEHAR: But that`s ambition.

SIMMONS: His job was to make you better.

BEHAR: That`s ambition, that`s not service.

SIMMONS: No. His job was to make you better, to find out what you need and get it to you before you thought about it. It`s the same as Todd (INAUDIBLE) and Leo Cohen (ph) who worked for me as an intern and Andre, these guys all became presidents. And they became presidents because they were good servants. The President himself --

BEHAR: You hear that? Over here, are you listening to this?

SIMMONS: The President himself is a servant. Right?

BEHAR: The President is the servant, yes.

SIMMONS: That`s right. So the book is about that.

BEHAR: But I sort of take objection with the fact that if do you good deeds you are going to be rewarded. Not necessarily in this world; a lot of times it`s the opposite.

SIMMONS: Well, Jesus taught two sermons one to the masses and one to his disciples. There were those who are full of anxiety about paying the Romans their taxes on time. And they needed to hear that there was a result from their giving. And then the other ones who knew that the hard working person who was dedicated, and was focused, and was awake always got what he needed.

That is what the book is about. You can take objection but it is written over and over again in every scripture.

BEHAR: Well, no, I`m playing devil`s advocate because I think I just want you to --

SIMMONS: You are here because you worked hard.

BEHAR: I did work hard. But do you think the rich should pay more taxes?

SIMMONS: Yes. I`m happy to pay more taxes.

BEHAR: You are.

SIMMONS: Of course, I am. But I run five charities and I give away more than I earn, so --

BEHAR: Well, when you make as much as you do, you have to.

SIMMONS: You can if you like. I know many who don`t.

BEHAR: What is the objection that a lot of rich people have to paying more taxes? You couldn`t say that they were failures. They`re very successful to make all that money.

SIMMONS: I can tell you, my yearly salary I give away a lot more than that. And I can also tell you that people are concerned with -- I`d rather we spend on education than war.

You know, I`d rather we spend on -- I understand how some might think their own giving --

BEHAR: People don`t call it war Russell, they call it protection. They call it, you know --

SIMMONS: They call it whatever they want.

BEHAR: They call it pre-emptive strikes. They call it a lot of different things.

SIMMONS: Yes. But they never mention the 200,000 innocent Iraqis.

BEHAR: That is a whole other conversation.

SIMMONS: I know. They never mention it. So I call it war and I think it was abusive and I think it was abuse of power of the executive office. And that`s behind us. Right.

BEHAR: Well, I think people should pick up the book.

SIMMONS: That`s a good idea.

BEHAR: It`s called "Super Rich" and maybe you`ll learn something out there. Ok.

We`ll be back in a minute with the fabulous Roseanne.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: Next week on the JOY BEHAR SHOW, the legendary Jerry Lewis plus actor, Brad Garrett and magician, David Copperfield. Now, back to Joy.

JOY BEHAR, HOST: There are some women who are so iconic they only need to go by one name. Cher, Madonna, Lassie and my guest tonight, Roseanne. She`s written a new book called "Roseannearchty: Dispatches From the Nut Farm." Welcome to the show, Roseanne, again.

ROSEANNE BARR, COMEDIAN: Hi, Joy.

BEHAR: Welcome back to the show.

BARR: Yes.

BEHAR: Because last year, we had a nice chat.

BARR: That`s right. We did. It was fantastic.

BEHAR: Now, do you really live on a nut farm?

BARR: I do part-time live on a Hawaiian nut farm in the rain forest of Hawaii, yes, I do.

BEHAR: Did you specifically pick living on a nut farm so that you could say I live on a nut farm?

BARR: So that I could say I live on a nut farm? No, it just kind of worked out that way, but it was like bashert.

BEHAR: It was bashert?

BARR: Yes.

BEHAR: Tell everybody what bashert means.

BARR: Decreed in heaven before earth.

BEHAR: Yes. Yes. Now, I loved your book. I loved --

BARR: Thank you.

BEHAR: Some of the things you say in the book are so great.

BARR: Thank you.

BEHAR: Like losing weight.

BARR: Yes.

BEHAR: About dieting.

BARR: That`s it.

BEHAR: Yes. Tell me about it.

BARR: Well, I`m the diet expert because I`ve gained and lost over 14,000 pounds in my lifetime, so I know exactly what -- I know how to gain it and I know how to lose it and a lot of these women these days, they don`t take better for both sides. They`re just like go, I lost weight and you`re supposed to apply it. What about women who want to gain weight?

BEHAR: Yes. All ten of them in the world. Who are they?

BARR: No, but I mean, we want to get -- I want to get fat sometimes.

BEHAR: Why?

BARR: Because it`s fantastic.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: To just get fat.

BARR: I never thought that -- I knew, I prayed and hoped when I was a young girl that some day, it would be the cool thing in the world to be fat. And now, it`s happened.

BEHAR: No, you`re thinner than you --

BARR: No. But everywhere I go, there`s like these young guys, and they`re muscling these really tall, thin model blondes out of the way to get to me.

BEHAR: Oh, is that so?

BARR: It`s just fantastic. Because they know I have something to say and they want to hear it. They`re tired of vacuous Barbie dolls with duck lips. They`ve let me know this.

BEHAR: What about exercise? Do you do that?

BARR: Hell no. That would be like failure. That would be like failure.

BEHAR: That`s admitting failure. All right. Now --

BARR: But when I want to lose weight, Joy --

BEHAR: Yes?

BARR: I have a simple solution.

BEHAR: Which is?

BARR: I eat less and move more. And it really does, for some reason, work.

BEHAR: Gee, what an original idea.

BARR: It really works.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: I do the opposite. I eat more and move less.

BARR: Well, because you want to get fat. Admit it.

BEHAR: Psychologically, I want to get fat. Yes. You know, there are a few things in the news this week that are interesting, I`d be interested in your comments.

BARR: Really.

BEHAR: For example, Hugh Hefner.

BARR: Oh, he`s old.

BEHAR: He`s 84. And he just got engaged to his 24-year-old girlfriend. Your thoughts?

BARR: She -- more power to her. I mean, you know, I guess she loves him. I guess, she`s not just having sex with him because he`s really old and a multibillionaire. I guess, she really, really cares about the guy, and she likes helping him put on his pajamas and walk down the stairs.

BEHAR: Yes.

BARR: It`s a fantastic thing for both of them.

BEHAR: But you say in your book that nobody wants to shag an old man.

BARR: No.

BEHAR: What about an old woman?

BARR: Nobody wants to have sex with an old woman either, unless, she`s fat. And then like, you know, like I say.

BEHAR: Now, you also said recently that Sarah Palin stole your act. What are you talking about?

BARR: She acts just like me. It really bugs me. I mean, it really bugs me. She acts like me. She looks like me. She talks like me. She is stealing my act, and it`s not just me saying it. It was in the "New York Times." Everybody has been saying it who, you know, looks at TV and what she`s doing. There`s a picture of me with glasses and a bun years before her. She`s doing my act except she`s doing it wrong. You`re supposed to - - if you`re going to steal from me --

BEHAR: Yes.

BARR: Here`s how you do it. You have to do it right. You got to be for the working people. Not against them. That makes me mad.

BEHAR: Well, she also was a domestic goddess like you have been.

BARR: Yes.

BEHAR: Because she`s all about, you know, hunting. By the way, are you scared that she`ll come and shoot you if you keep saying she stole your act?

BARR: No, because I`m heavily armed myself, Joy. I have a number of weapons, and I`m pro guns. I love guns.

BEHAR: You love guns.

BARR: I love shooting guns. And if anybody comes to trespass on my property without my permission, including Sarah Palin --

BEHAR: Yes.

BARR: She better look out because I`m armed.

BEHAR: Like if somebody wants to come and steal some of your nuts?

BARR: That`s right. They better not be coming for my nuts. I`m growing nuts. Macadamia nuts. And, Joy, really, like for all the things that I -- I`m serious now, for all the things that I`ve ever done in my life, I feel like my real purpose on life is to get it known about how fantastic the macadamia nut is if you`ll just give me a minute.

It`s a perfect protein, Joy. And it has no carbohydrates. It`s full of fat, but it`s the right kind of fat that the human body needs. So, if we would start getting our protein from macadamia nuts, we could suspend all cheeseburger farming and, hence, do away with greenhouse gas effect. So, I`m always trying to save the world

BEHAR: OK. That`s really nice, but macadamia --

BARR: And it tastes so good.

BEHAR: But they make you constipated.

BARR: I don`t find that. I find it`s a nice roughage. I really do. I find it`s a lot of nice roughage.

BEHAR: All right. Now, you know, when I look up your name on the internet or something, I always see a lot of controversy around you. Mine, too sometimes.

BARR: I don`t know why.

BEHAR: Because we`re comedians, and we say crazy things.

BARR: Because we`re comedians, that`s correct.

BEHAR: Yes. But when you, I remember when you sang "the national anthem."

BARR: I don`t.

BEHAR: I remember it.

BARR: No, I do.

BEHAR: And you caused quite a cause celeb because of that. Can we watch some of it again?

BARR: Oh, my God. Are you kidding?

BEHAR: I love it. It second only to the Mel Gibson tapes. Let`s watch it.

(LAUGHTER)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING) o`er the land of the free and the home of the brave --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BARR: Oh, my God.

BEHAR: OK. Now, --

BARR: That was the day, Joy, I`m so glad you brought it up. In my book, Roseannearchy, --

BEHAR: Yes.

BARR: I state how at age 12 I was so jealous of my younger cousin, Debby, who got a dog food commercial when all I ever wanted to do was star in commercials, and I couldn`t get a commercial, and my Aunt Yeda who was the agent, she said you`re too fat to be in any commercials. And it devastated me until I made a deal with Satan. I sold my soul to Satan when I was 12 so that I could become a rich and famous star and still have men like me without having to lose weight. OK.

BEHAR: Did it work? It worked.

BARR: I forgot all about it. Of course, it worked. Then, I sang the "Star-Spangled Banner," and afterward, when I realized how badly I screwed up, I realized Satan was coming for my soul, and I had to turn it around. And the end of my book, Roseannearchy is me inviting Satan to Spago so that I could ask for a refi on my soul because I wanted my soul back from Satan.

BEHAR: Yes, sure.

BARR: And, you know, I was -- it`s a surprise ending, and people will like it.

BEHAR: Yes. Well, it`s a very positive book in many ways.

BARR: Thank you.

BEHAR: But the thing about that incident --

BARR: It was the worst day of my life.

BEHAR: It was terrible. But what prompted you to go out there and act like that or do that? I know you had a bad day because of your cousin, but besides that?

BARR: OK. The night before I was going to sing it, I mean, it was working woman`s night and the guy that owned the Roseanne Show owned the padres and invited me. I was singing in my act at the time, and I sing pretty good. No one believes me. And the other thing in the book is after this devastation of the "Star-Spangled Banner" because I started too high and then I tried to make it funny because I knew I couldn`t do it.

BEHAR: Well, you were supposed to be funny doing it.

BARR: No, I wasn`t going to do it funny.

BEHAR: Oh, really?

(CROSSTALK)

BARR: No, I was going to do it serious, and I could do it. I just started too high. It`s simple. But, Joy, the redemption for me came with the phone call from Mr. Tony Bennett, a great artist, as you know, and he invited me to sing for three United States presidents with him after this devastating thing.

BEHAR: Really?

BARR: This thing that devastated my life (INAUDIBLE), but, no, it devastated my whole life, and they threatened to take the Roseanne Show off. It was awful.

BEHAR: I think it was the spitting that got the death threats going.

BARR: That I was like, you know, trying to imitate a baseball player.

BEHAR: I know.

BARR: It`s just all misunderstood. But, Joy, I did sing for three United States presidents despite all --

BEHAR: Living ones?

BARR: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

BARR: Live. Live.

BEHAR: Do you know how fat President Taft was that they had to make a special bathtub for him because he was so fat. I`m just saying.

BARR: I did not sing for the fat President Taft.

BEHAR: I just re-associated to that.

BARR: I sang for Clinton, Ford, and Carter. And Mr. Jimmy carter, who I love, and I`m going to say, I love Mr. Jimmy -- president, Mr. Jimmy Carter. He`s the greatest president we ever had, and I`m tired of him being run down for this criminal Ronald Reagan who I hate. Jimmy Carter is a real Christian, and I love Jimmy Carter. And he gave me the thumbs up when I looked out there, Joy.

BEHAR: Well, Jimmy Carter may be a living saint, but Ronald Reagan is a dead saint. They love him on the right wing, but we --

BARR: I hate Ronald Reagan. Hate, hate, hate, hate.

BEHAR: No, no, no. You don`t hate anybody.

BARR: OK.

BEHAR: We`re just getting started with Roseanne. Don`t forget on January 17th, THE JOY BEHAR SHOW is moving to 10:00 p.m., but don`t worry, you can watch "Law and Order" re-runs the other 23 hours of the day, OK? We`re moving to 10:00.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARR: The guy is a lot like this doughnut. OK? So, first you got to get rid of all the stuff his mom did to him.

(LAUGHTER)

BARR: And then you got to get rid all that macho crap they pick up from the beer commercials.

(LAUGHTER)

BARR: And then, there`s my personal favorite, the male ego.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: That was from the ground breaking sitcom "Roseanne." Its creator, Roseanne Barr, is with me talking about her new book, "Rosannearchy."

BARR: I`ve never gotten another firm.

BEHAR: Can I just say that show was really, really funny. And I don`t like sitcoms as a rule. I`ve never seen "Friends," for example, once. I`ve never seen it. But your show was funny.

BARR: Thank you. Thanks.

BEHAR: It was as funny as "I Love Lucy."

BARR: I love that.

BEHAR: It was.

BARR: Thank you very much. And "I Love Lucy" was very funny.

BEHAR: Because you were funny.

BARR: Thank you.

BEHAR: But you jumped the shark as they say when you guys won the lottery. Who made that stupid decision to do that?

BARR: Me. Yes, bad --

BEHAR: OK. Never mind.

BARR: It was a great decision. And I`m so happy that I did it.

BEHAR: It was the worst decision.

BARR: I wanted to do it.

BEHAR: I know. But as soon as you did that, the show lost all of its pizzazz.

BARR: I don`t agree with you. And I would suggest that you go back in time and watch it again because it`s completely relevant, and I knew it at the time. I thought, well, you know, in ten years, it`s going to be exactly right on and it is. It was all about the difference between being rich and being poor, that whole ninth season, and it`s like completely relevant.

BEHAR: But that was the last season.

BARR: I know that was my last season. That`s how I wanted to leave it. I wanted to leave --

BEHAR: Oh, it was your choice.

BARR: Yes. It was a show about a woman who, you know, wins the lottery.

BEHAR: Yes.

BARR: And, you know, actually a show about a woman who gets fired from her union job and then wins the lottery and like buys back the town`s factory and gives it to the town people. It was my perfect ending for my show.

BEHAR: OK.

BARR: That`s what it was about.

BEHAR: All right. I take it back.

BARR: You should.

BEHAR: I take it all back. I`m sorry.

BARR: Wow.

BEHAR: And you don`t hate Ronald Reagan. Take it back.

BARR: No, I don`t hate Ronald Reagan, but I hate Reaganomics, OK? I don`t speak ill of the dead. I`m so wrong. Sometimes, I have to go -- every day I have to start my day by apologizing for what I said yesterday. I did not hate Ronald Reagan. That`s wrong. But I hate Reaganomics. They don`t work, and it`s not a good system.

BEHAR: OK. Now, you also go after Oprah in your book.

BARR: I don`t go after Oprah.

BEHAR: You said Oprah has never done a show on capitalism which made her a billionaire and that pisses me off.

BARR: It does piss me off.

BEHAR: Well, why?

BARR: Because we should have a whole bunch of shows about capitalism right now.

BEHAR: Just because she made a lot of money, she should talk about capitalism?

BARR: Yes, absolutely.

BEHAR: But you made a lot of money, you don`t talk about capitalism.

BARR: The hell if I don`t talk about capitalism, Joy. You`re wrong again. My book is all about capitalism and how much it sucks.

(LAUGHTER)

BARR: What do you think of that?

BEHAR: But when you made a billion dollars, maybe you don`t think it sucks.

BARR: Just because you`re rich doesn`t mean you`re, why am I screaming?

BEHAR: A capitalist.

BARR: Doesn`t mean you`re horrible. I`ve done a lot of good things with my money, Joy.

BEHAR: I know.

BARR: And I love it. I get a big, big thrill in my life, I just have to say this, when I give money to a good cause, and I give a significant, I hate that I`m saying this, I`m going to go to hell. But I give a significant amount to charity and a lot of rich people do.

BEHAR: I know they do.

BARR: A lot of people are real good, and they`re not all, you know, and Oprah is good, too.

BEHAR: Yes.

BARR: But I wanted her to talk about capitalism because that`s why we`re in trouble.

BEHAR: Well, maybe she doesn`t feel like it. She has a new, you know, a new network, so maybe she`ll do it over there.

BARR: I hope so.

BEHAR: Well, let`s hope so. OK. Now, you`re also a big supporter of gay rights.

BARR: Yes.

BEHAR: OK. Years ago now, I found out that you outed Rosie O`Donnell and Carrie Fisher got mad at you and now Carrie Fisher has outed -- supposedly, allegedly outed John Travolta, and he`s ticked off at her. What do you have to say to Carrie Fisher?

BARR: I want to come out of the closet right now, Joy.

BEHAR: OK.

BARR: I`m gay.

BEHAR: You are?

BARR: Yes.

BEHAR: But I met the boyfriend. I don`t think you`re gay.

BARR: No, I don`t know. I mean, it just kind of like how times change.

BEHAR: But what do you think about Carrie doing that?

BARR: I`ve wondered about it, and because she was so mad at me when I accidently did it.

BEHAR: Really? What did you say?

BARR: I said, they said what`s it going to be the difference between your show and Rosie O`Donnell`s? We both had talk shows. And I simply said, I`m, you know, my show is going to, you know, I don`t know. I said something like, you know, something like that.

BEHAR: My show will be straight, and hers will be gay?

BARR: Kind of. Something stupid.

BEHAR: This is before she came out.

BARR: Yes.

BEHAR: So, did she call you and say, listen --

BARR: She did. And she told me to mind my own business.

BEHAR: she did.

BARR: She sure did. And I sure did apologize and eat crow. And I`m sure I`m going to have to eat more crow after being on your show, too.

BEHAR: But Carrie Fisher, I don`t think she`s backed off on it. I haven`t read that she has.

BARR: I mean, you know, it`s that whole thing that everybody talks about all the time. I mean, it`s still like so hard for gay people to come out. It`s still like legitimately dangerous.

BEHAR: Well, they`re saying --

BARR: In so many places. And you want to fight against that, you know?

BEHAR: Yes.

BARR: But maybe it`s not the right thing. People need to be able to say it themselves. But sometimes, you want to encourage them, you know? Just get it over with. Like don`t ask don`t tell. Just get it over with. Stop it.

BEHAR: It took them a while, but they got it. They got it. It`s done. Obama did it. The left was yelling at him. The right is yelling at him. Meanwhile, he got plenty of things done. He`s a very good president. Don`t you like him?

BARR: I think he can be a better president. I don`t dislike him, and I don`t think you should run down the president like in a time of war and (INAUDIBLE).

BEHAR: We did that to George Bush. The left was merciless.

BARR: Oh, I`m just saying that because that`s what the right says. But, you know, I think he could be a better president for sure. And I`m all for him being a better president and doing a lot of things that he promised to do and doing them quickly, but they need to be done.

BEHAR: What would you do if you were president?

BARR: Well, if I was president, you know, I`m running for president.

BEHAR: I heard, yes.

BARR: Running for president of these United States plus prime minister of Israel, a two for --

(LAUGHTER)

BARR: Because I know how to solve problems. And if I don`t, I`m going to find the people that do. I`m going to solve something, damn it. I`m running on the green tea party ticket. Green tea.

BEHAR: I got it.

BARR: And my church is, because you have to have a corresponding church or you never get elected.

BEHAR: That`s right.

BARR: The church of common sense.

BEHAR: OK. They will never elect an atheist, I understand, in this country. Many, many people I speak to say that will never happen.

BARR: Well, we have had a lot of great atheist presidents in the past.

BEHAR: Really?

BARR: Yes.

BEHAR: Who?

BARR: Aaron Burr.

BEHAR: He was never president.

(LAUGHTER)

BARR: I don`t know. What`s his name? Thomas Jefferson.

BEHAR: You`re thinking Raymond Burr.

BARR: Thomas Jefferson.

BEHAR: Jefferson was a theist. He believed in god. Yes.

BARR: OK. Well, I`m sure there was someone. I`m sure they were good.

BEHAR: Taft when they took him out of the tub because he was so fat, then he said I don`t believe in God.

BARR: Well, I do. I think, you know, I mean in America whether you do or don`t believe in God, I mean, how are you supposed to believe somebody like that, like somebody saying they believe in God but like then they go and drop a bunch of bombs? What`s true?

BEHAR: Exactly.

BARR: Maybe, they`re all atheists. That`s my opinion. Or satanists or something because they don`t do the right thing ever so how can they be theists?

BEHAR: All right. I have one more segment with you, and we`re going to get some Twitter questions from your fans out there, OK? So, stay tuned. We`ll have more with Roseanne in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARR: But I was too afraid to take testosterone because I don`t know what it`ll do to me. I mean, I knew right away that my I.Q. would decrease by half. I knew that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: Wow. The very dishy-looking Roseanne Barr.

BARR: I might go back blonde.

BEHAR: You need to do and go your hair blonde again. I love it.

BARR: I might for the summer.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: It`s always the summer in Hawaii at the nut farm, isn`t it?

BARR: No. It rains all the time. We got seasons there.

BEHAR: Oh, really? OK. I have some Twitter questions for you.

BARR: Oh, good. I love Twitter.

BEHAR: These are not my questions.

BARR: Oh.

BEHAR: These are from people out there.

BARR: Twittering?

BEHAR: If you don`t want to answer it, just say I don`t want to answer it.

BARR: OK.

BEHAR: Is there one nice thing you can say about Tom Arnold?

BARR: Absolutely.

BEHAR: What is it?

BARR: You know, that he`s funny.

BEHAR: OK. Next, you have global fame. How is that different from Snooki fame?

BARR: Well, Snooki and I were just the other night having dinner with Fran Lebowitz, and we`re all talking about the new books that we`ve authored.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: Although, (INAUDIBLE)

BARR: Yes. And I was like -- Snooki is like "Star Trek." She really, really is a deep, deep thinker.

BEHAR: Existentialism in Jersey is very big --

BARR: It is. Very much. And I have to say, I`m a fan. I really am a fan of Snooki.

BEHAR: Aha. Why did your dad say Santa is an anti-Semite?

BARR: Because my father was like the funniest human being in the world and that`s what he told us why Santa didn`t come to our house when we were little.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: Because you were Jewish.

BARR: Yes, we`re Jewish.

BEHAR: You are Jewish.

BARR: Yes, I am Jewish, and I still am Joy. And my father would say because Santa is an anti-Semite. So, we`d go how come Santa doesn`t come to our house? Because Santa is an anti-Semite.

(LAUGHTER)

BARR: He was very funny.

BEHAR: And you believed him?

BARR: Yes. All I wanted was like Santa, and then like, I finally got a picture with Santa which I have in my, one of my books and it was like the happiest day of my life. And I was like only 8 with this little hat. And I finally got to Santa because I thought he was like God. And so, I`m like, Santa, I want this Judy the walking doll thing, and he`s like OK, next. he Wasn`t a very sensitive Santa. And then I didn`t get it.

BEHAR: Oh.

BARR: See that`s why I feel sorry for kids with this Santa thing.

BEHAR: But that was when the devil was in you.

BARR: No. It`s because my parents didn`t buy me a Judy the walking doll.

BEHAR: Oh, was that when you were married to Tom Arnold?

BARR: No. It`s when I was a kid.

BEHAR: OK. Just kidding.

BARR: What did you say?

BEHAR: I said that was when the devil was in you or was that when Tom Arnold was married to you?

BARR: Well, you know, getting famous is definitely a deal with the devil.

BEHAR: Yes.

BARR: You got to remain silent about the worst things, and that`s how it always felt to me. I can`t say nothing about that because I`ll get too much trouble and lose some money.

BEHAR: You know what, Roseanne, there`s nothing negative about being a celebrity. People who say it`s negative are lying. I don`t see any negatives. What do you see?

BARR: I don`t see any negatives either, and I like that -- I try to think up, you know, with what you`ve got celebrity you could live to your highest use and serve some other people which like if you`re a spiritual person or whatever you want to call it, that became important to me so I was like I got a high use. I can like shine light on good things and help good things and fund good things. So, I mean, to me that`s kind of like being in heaven. You don`t get a better life than that.

BEHAR: You know, you`ve become such a good person.

BARR: Not really. It`s all an act.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: OK. Her book is called "Roseannearchy: Dispatches From the Nut Farm." Goodnight, everybody. Thank you, honey.

BARR: Thank you.

BEHAR: Wonderful.

END