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Accused Killer in Court; Air Travel Nightmares; Vice President Biden Visits Afghanistan

Aired January 10, 2011 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Ali, thank you.

The man charged with shooting Gabrielle Giffords and several others is about to make his first court appearance. You'll be seeing that happening during the show.

You know his name by now. He is Jared Lee Loughner. And there he is. He is due in court in one hour in Arizona.

And his court-appointed attorney is a woman by the name of Judy Clarke. In fact, that is her there on the right side of your screen in these pictures. She is the same federal defender who represented Unabomber Ted Kaczynski.

We are going to get to that in just a moment.

But,first, President Obama has spoken again about the rampage in Tucson in which six people were killed, 14 others wounded.

Here now is the president. This was just a short time ago at the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Obviously, all of us are still grieving and in shock from the tragedy that took place. Gabby Giffords and others are still fighting to recover. Families are still absorbing the enormity of their losses.

We have a criminal investigation that is ongoing, and charges that no doubt will be brought against the perpetrator of this heinous crime.

I think it's important for us to also focus, though, on the extraordinary courage that was shown during the course of these events: a 20-year-old college student who ran into the line of fire to rescue his boss, a wounded woman who helped secure the ammunition that might have caused even more damage, the citizens who wrestled down the gunman. Part of what I think that speaks to is the best of America, even in the face of such mindless violence.

And so in the coming days we're going to have a lot of time to reflect. Right now the main thing we're doing is to offer our thoughts and prayers to those who've been impacted, making sure that we're joining together and pulling together as a country. And as president of the United States, but also as a father, obviously I'm spending a lot of time just thinking about the families and reaching out to them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And, of course, that was the president again speaking just over an hour ago there from the White House.

Now I want to take you to Tucson.

Congresswoman Giffords remains today at this hour in critical condition, a bullet having traveled through her brain, through the left hemisphere of her brain, in that assault Saturday morning.

Here is the word. This is from one of her doctors. This is new today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. G. MICHAEL LEMOLE JR., CHIEF OF NEUROSURGERY, UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: With regard to Congresswoman Giffords' recovery, at this phase in the game, no change is good. And we have no change. That is to say she is still following those basic commands.

On top of that, the CAT scans are showing that there is no progression of that swelling. We're not out of the woods yet. That swelling can sometimes take three days or five days to maximize, but every day that goes by and we don't see an increase, we're slightly more optimistic.

And so, with that in mind, I think we are going to proceed over the next few days to see how she does.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Slightly more optimistic. Did you hear that? That again was Gabrielle Giffords' surgeon speaking there in Tucson.

But this story very much so has ripple effects across the country, including our nation's capital in Washington. And I want to show you what's happening there today, obviously very much so still reeling. About an hour before noon President Obama and there with his first lady by his side, they walked briefly out of the White House to lead the nation in a moment of silence, a moment of silent mourning.

Also, look at these pictures. This was the scene at the Capitol Building, hundreds of members of Congress massed in silence on the building steps. Legislative business is now suspended, as are discussions, They are under way here as to whether and -- and how to give legislators better security.

Today, the death toll remains at six. And these are the victims, federal Judge John Roll, who happened -- was there at the congresswoman's meeting at that Safeway grocery store with constituents, also, Giffords' staffer Gabe Zimmerman dead at age 30, 9-year-old Christina Green born September 11, 2001. Folks, that was 9/11.

Also killed, Dorwin Stoddard, age 76, Dorothy Morris, also 76, and 79-year-old Phyllis Schneck.

Jessica Yellin is standing by for me at University Medical Center. We are going to check with her in just a moment here.

But first I want to go to Ted Rowlands on the shooter's first court appearance there in Arizona.

Ted, I imagine the security just outside of that courthouse is very, very tight.

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, extremely tight.

You can look around here, you see this street. One side of the street has been totally blocked off by police vehicles. There are officers and federal officials throughout the area here and making sure that nobody can get through.

There's a lot of security here because there is a lot of anger obviously in this community for this young man, so they want to make sure that he is safe as he comes in for his first court appearance.

BALDWIN: What about, Ted -- it's also important to point out here his public defender, Judy Clarke, a lot of high-profile defense cases in her past.

ROWLANDS: Yes, absolutely.

As you mentioned it, she has represented Ted Kaczynski, did some work on Eric Rudolph's case, the Atlanta bomber at Centennial Park there as well. She has got a long list in terms of cases of experience.

And in a motion filed this morning in federal court, basically the argument was made, we need somebody who has experience for this case because it's going to be detailed and we also need somebody who could handle a possible death penalty case, which they articulated to the court that she has. Likely today, we will find out if the judge appoints her or not as the federal defender.

BALDWIN: Ted, also, you know, we have all seen this federal complaint here.

And part of this complaint, it mentions Loughner and this letter he received from Congresswoman Giffords, I think it was back in 2007. Tell me about that. What do you know?

ROWLANDS: Well, they -- during the search of his home -- in part of the criminal complaint, they mentioned what they found in the home, and one of the things was this letter. It was basically a letter from the congresswoman's office to him thanking him for coming to a similar event that was transpiring on Saturday back in 2007.

So, clearly, this young man had an interaction with the congresswoman. He has told his friends that he didn't like the congresswoman because of that short conversation he had with her. And it's part of the puzzle here of why on earth did this young man do such a horrible, horrible thing.

They're not getting any information from him because he's not cooperating. But these little details will help them piece together the possible motive for this tragedy.

BALDWIN: And, Ted, I know you get to be inside of that courtroom. It's important to point out it's federal court. You can't have recording devices, so there won't be cameras in there.

But I am hoping to speak with you, of course, after we see Loughner inside of that federal courthouse. You can let us know if at all there is any kind of outburst or perhaps if he just keeps his silence.

So, Ted, we will be looking to you coming up here within the next hour, Ted Rowlands for us there in Phoenix.

Now I want to go to my colleague Jessica Yellin, who has been out there really over the weekend and now for us through this week at the University Medical Center there in Tucson.

And, Jessica, I know you have a special guest by your side, but I think I'm first going to go with you as far as any kind of condition update -- Giffords still in critical condition.

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: That is right.

Gabrielle Giffords, we're told by her doctors, as you heard, is in critical condition, but has not changed and they say that is a wonderful thing. She is responding to signals, and they describe that as things like squeezing a doctor's hand or giving a thumbs up when necessary or wiggling her toes, for example, all these things, they say, very positive signs.

They do not know what kind of long-term damage there could be or if there is none. They wouldn't know such a thing until they remove her breathing tube, which is still inserted in her and will remain for a number of days they say until they are confident they're out of the woods on this swelling issue.

Now, the doctor talked about that. That is the gravest danger at this point, that the brain in this sort of circumstance can swell and cause great harm. They have removed a piece of her skull to allow -- to minimize the dangers of that, but again the doctor says it could be a total of another three days, maybe even a week until they're certain that won't happen.

But, finally, we're told the family has been in the room. The family is as pleased as they can be under these conditions. And, finally, Brooke, I will just mention that the others, there was one other who was discharged today from the hospital, and the others are recovering as well at this point -- Brooke. BALDWIN: Jessica, I know you have next to you the Pima County attorney, the prosecutor Barbara LaWall, because a lot of this story -- and we have seen the federal charging document, but we would be remiss to point out that -- who is missing here is that young 9-year- old girl and the three other victims, all of whom have been killed.

Just curious if you could ask her about possible state charges.

YELLIN: Could you hear that question?

BARBARA LAWALL, PIMA COUNTY, ARIZONA, ATTORNEY: I have no sound.

YELLIN: OK. I'm sorry.

So, let me ask you, some of the charges -- first of all, the 9- year-old girl in this instance is missing from these charges. Why is that, and will they eventually be added?

LAWALL: Well, the federal authorities have exclusive jurisdiction only over the federal -- federal employees.

So, it is up to us and the state of Arizona and Pima County for my office to proceed with charging all of the other victims, not only the 9-year-old, but everybody else who is not a federal employee.

YELLIN: Now, there -- because there are federal charges and state charges, does that in some way complicate the case and allow him to sort of wiggle through in some way?

LAWALL: I don't know that it allows anyone to wiggle through, but it does complicate the case.

BALDWIN: All right. Our apologies. Gosh, hate it when it happens. We lost the signal. Hopefully we will get it back up and get you back to the Pima County attorney and also Jessica Yellin for us in Tucson.

But I will move along and tell you that a moment of silence across the country for the Arizona shooting victims, it was held this morning. We are going to take a closer look at who those victims were. That is ahead.

And we will also update you on another big story, the winter storm wreaking havoc on the Southeast. It is causing all kinds of air travel nightmares.

You are in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back to the NEWSROOM.

Want to bring you back up to speed on our continuing coverage of the tragedy in Tucson. And where we left off was with my colleague Jessica Yellin in Tucson sitting alongside and interview interesting the prosecutor here, the Pima County DA, Barbara LaWall. Jessica, I think you were asking her about the -- sort of the potential confusion or wiggle room between state and federal charges and the defendant here, Jared Lee Loughner.

YELLIN: That's right, Brooke.

If we could continue, Madam Attorney, so the -- the issue here is that the federal charges have been filed, but while they are working their way out, you can't file charges on behalf of the local victims. Is that correct?

LAWALL: Well, we may be able to. And that is the legal research that we're doing. Whether or not our -- we have exclusive jurisdiction over those other victims. The feds can't even file any indictment at all because those are local charges exclusively. We may also have jurisdiction over the federal employees as well.

YELLIN: So you don't know the time frame on when you can file your charges yet?

LAWALL: Well, that's the research that we're doing.

The question that we want to have answered is, do we have to wait and do the feds retain exclusive jurisdiction? Do we have to wait or can we proceed simultaneously?

YELLIN: Now, it's my understanding that insanity defense laws are slightly different here than in other states. If that should come into play here, what is the difference in Arizona?

LAWALL: Well, the difference in Arizona is that we have a statute called guilty but insane. So, if in fact somebody is found insane in Arizona, they would go to the state mental hospital. Should they ever regain their sanity, then they go and serve their time in prison.

YELLIN: Could they face a death penalty charge?

LAWALL: No.

YELLIN: No. So, if there is any insanity, even guilty, but insane, no death penalty charge.

Now, I understand that you are also quite good friends with some of the people who were injured.

LAWALL: Well, myself and several people in my office know Gabby Giffords very well. And, of course, John Roll was a prosecutor in my office when I first came and one of my supervisors, and so I have -- I have known him. And her chief of staff and I went to high school together. So there's a lot of connections between the victims in this case and folks in my office.

YELLIN: There is some talk about possibly a push for some change in the gun laws, not cracking down on ownership of guns, but maybe different kind of background check or the fact that he had an extended clip. Do you see any potential for changes in those things in the environment in Arizona now?

LAWALL: Through the Arizona legislature? Doubtful. I mean, we have probably the most liberal gun laws in the nation in this state.

And I have fought continuously to get much more strict, much more stringent gun laws and background checks, and have repeatedly come up against total stoppage and block.

YELLIN: Now, one of the other big questions everyone is asking is what motivated Loughner to do this. Is it possible that we will never really know that he -- if he does not have any known affiliation with any group, could you carry this case forward and never ultimately find out why he did this?

LAWALL: In many crimes, we never know what an individual's motivation is for committing the crime. So, the answer is, yes, we could proceed.

And motivation is not an element of an offense with regards to proving murder. We don't have to prove motive. It always helps a jury understand, but it is not something that we have to have evidence of and prove.

YELLIN: All right.

County attorney Barbara LaWall, thank you so much for joining us.

LAWALL: You're welcome.

YELLIN: And good luck with your case -- Brooke, back to you.

BALDWIN: Jessica Yellin, thanks so much. And also of course our thanks to Barbara LaWall.

And just want to remind everyone Jessica brought up a great point about Arizona's gun laws and how some call them loose, perhaps lenient. And we're going to be hearing from the governor during the state of the state address in about half-an-hour.

We will bring that to you live. And she certainly came out pretty quickly over the weekend to speak about the tragedy in Tucson, but I would imagine that she will open her address talking about what happened over the weekend and perhaps looking ahead at the laws in her state of Arizona. So we will bring that to you live here on CNN.

And as we wait for Jared Loughner's first appearance in that federal courthouse in Phoenix, we are finding out more information here about this accused shooter from former classmates, from former teachers. In fact, this is a live picture. Tell me again, Angie, what that was. That was his home, I'm being told. And this is the Phoenix courthouse where he will be entering a back door, huge security there. That should happen within the next hour or so.

Also, classmates, Loughner's classmates at the Pima Community College Loughner attended say they sat in class. They say they were afraid of him, wanted to sit close to the door. He was kicked out of an algebra class because the teacher considered him a threat. So, wait until you hear what that particular teacher actually told our correspondent, Drew Griffin.

Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEN MCGAHEE, FORMER MATH INSTRUCTOR OF JARED LEE LOUGHNER: This guy was mentally disturbed. He was very isolated. I was scared of what he could do. I wasn't scared of him physically, but I was scared of him bringing a weapon to class.

GRIFFIN: At one point did you try to get him removed from the class, or did you get him removed?

MCGAHEE: I did. I tried two times at least. I think on the third attempt, he had said something about the Constitution, like violating his First Amendment rights. And I think that was the straw that broke the camel's back that caused him to, you know, be kicked out of the class.

It was very shocking -- very shocking, but I was not too surprised that he committed such an act. I felt like he was going to plan something. And I just thank God that he had given us the grace in the classroom that he didn't commit anything. That's pretty amazing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Hmm. Not surprised. Did you hear that? Loughner was later suspended by that community college after he posted this video online claiming the school was illegal under the U.S. Constitution. And ultimately Loughner voluntarily withdrew from that Pima Community College after that.

So, when we come back, we will be hearing from the parents who lost their 9-year-old little girl in Saturday's shooting.

Also ahead, Vice President Joe Biden making a surprise visit to Afghanistan.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right, couple other stories, fast-moving stories we want to get you updated on.

First, for the very first time as vice president -- here he is -- Joe Biden visiting Afghanistan. His plane landed in Kabul today and the vice president was greeted at the airport by U.S. Ambassador Karl Eikenberry, General David Petraeus, and a handful of Afghan government officials.

The vice president's visit was not announced in advance, simply because of security concerns. He is in Kabul to check on progress leading up to the gradual withdrawal of U.S. troops from Afghanistan. That as you know is scheduled to begin in July. The vice president will meet with Afghan President Hamid Karzai and also American troops.

And now updating a case we have been following for you -- we are waiting for confirmation of some pretty gruesome details reported in the killing of that Las Vegas dancer. You remember this young woman? This was Deborah Flores-Narvaez. Her body was found Friday in downtown Las Vegas. She had been missing for just about a month.

"The Las Vegas Review-Journal" is reporting Flores-Narvaez's remains were packed in tubs filled with cement. Police have arrested a suspect. He is her former boyfriend, a professional dancer and aspiring rapper, goes by the name Jason "Blu" Griffith. He is in jail without bond on a murder charge now. Flores-Narvaez was last seen leaving her home to go to his apartment.

And last week, we showed you some pictures from videos apparently showing four men raping severely disabled women at that California care home or possibly homes. Well, we have some pictures here. And those pictures actually led to this arrest. This is 27-year-old Ernie Lloyd. He actually turned himself in to police in Hollywood after seeing himself on TV on the news. He is jailed on $10,000 bond.

Back on Friday, police identified a second suspect, the second suspect already in prison for several crimes, including sexual assault in a care home.

Now I wanted to go to Ed Lavandera. CNN's Ed Lavandera just hopped in front of a camera for us on breaking news here in the case with Tom DeLay.

Ed, what are you learning?

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you know, the sentencing phase of Tom DeLay's trial -- he is the former Republican leader in Congress from the Houston area -- Tom DeLay has received prison time from a judge here in Austin, Texas.

Back in November, he was found guilty by a jury of two counts of money-laundering and conspiracy. Essentially, the charges are that he had funneled $190,000 in corporate money through various PACs back into the coffers of Republican candidates running for the state house here in Texas, but a judge here moments ago ruling that Tom DeLay should be sent to prison for three years on one of those counts. On the second count, the judge ruled that he would be sentenced to five years in prison.

However, that can be done on a probationary kind of way, so essentially the amount of prison time that Tom DeLay will be facing is three years.

Now, one more caveat here is that he's also allowing Tom DeLay to post a $10,000 bond, so we presume that here in the next few hours he will be out of custody, because essentially this case is being appealed by Tom DeLay and his attorneys.

So while that case -- while his case is being delayed, it sounds like Tom DeLay will be allowed to post bond and get out of prison. But this is quite a sentence for Tom DeLay, who was once one of the most powerful Republican figures in Washington, D.C. This is a case that has gone on for many years here in Texas, but Tom DeLay just moments ago finding out that a judge here in Texas is sending him to prison -- Brooke.

BALDWIN: Huge news, Eddie Lavandera, to prison for three years, as you said.

Ed Lavandera with the breaking story on Tom DeLay for us out of Austin, Texas -- Ed, thank you.

We are continuing to follow that story. The weather is a huge story, and obviously the tragedy in Tucson, a lot going on today. Stay right there. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back to the NEWSROOM.

A couple items, live items, I want to remind you, we are waiting for here within this hour, two things. Number one, we will finally see, or at least our reporters in that federal courthouse in Phoenix, Arizona, will see this alleged shooter, Jared Lee Loughner, walking into that courthouse.

We cannot, as in cameras, recording devices, cannot be in that courthouse. But we have reporters on the ground who will hop in front of the camera and let us know if he spoke, what he said, who was in the courtroom, et cetera. Huge story we're keeping our eye on there in Phoenix.

Also in Phoenix today, we will be hearing from, in about 15 minutes, the governor of Arizona, Jan Brewer, anticipated to give her state of the state address, and also anticipated as part of that speaking about this horrific tragedy happening in her home state, so two items we will bring to you live.

But now to a story that is affecting millions of people today, including me. I'm talking about this big snowstorm that slammed the Southeast. And the threat is not over yet. Look at this truck. What was he thinking? It is a mess, I tell you, a mess here in Atlanta.

And the mayor in fact declaring a state of emergency. And if you're trying to fly in or out of the city, you can pretty much forget about it.

I want to check in with Marty Savidge here. Managed to make it to the airport somehow. Good thing our crew cars I think have four- wheel drive.

And, Marty, I imagine a lot of people there none too pleased and very much so stuck.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know, they say that misery loves company. There is nobody lonely at the Atlanta Airport right now. Everybody is miserable. And this is the line that is really most miserable. I have been in the line all day, not as long as everyone, but a lot of hours people have spent in this line to re-book. If you take a look at flight board up there, what's interesting, people have been coming up to take photographs of the flight board, because never had they seen so many red canceled signs up there for so many flights.

Last we heard, Delta had canceled 1,450 flights systemwide, most of them in and out of the Atlanta area. And we know that other airlines have canceled all of their flights. So, it has been a very, very difficult day for those people trying to travel.

The other interesting thing about the airport, Brooke, is that it's not just airline passengers that are trapped here but other people have come in here. You have the homeless that come, people who are stuck in the highway that come to the airport because they know it's open, two the airport is heated and three it has food so it is a place they can seek refuge, not just for the flying public, Brooke.

BALDWIN: It's a tough situation for lot of people and beyond. What about the whole domino effect? I know the people in that long line are directly affected but what about the people traveling near Atlanta? They're still affected by the domino effect of the cancellations.

SAVIDGE: Right, because part of that this is a very big transit airport means you come somewhere, come to Atlanta and get on another plane to go somewhere else. Perfect example is David Word. He joins us here. You are trying to get where?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To Dallas-Fort Worth.

SAVIDGE: You're coming from?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: From Israel.

SAVIDGE: Most people have figured out some sort of system, and Dave has a system. Who is helping you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have my wife checking online for the planes and I had my sisters checking on the hotel rooms just in case we can't get out tonight.

SAVIDGE: He has the whole family in on this. His wife gave him a hot tip. He thought he was only flying Wednesday. She is saying?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I might be able to get out tomorrow. So there are a few flights, a few seats left, I'm going to try to get in a few minutes.

SAVIDGE: That is why he is in line right now, Brooke. A lot of people hoping they'll get some flight out of here.

BALDWIN: We have all been there at some point or another. Good for him and good for his wife. Marty Savidge at Atlanta Hartsfield, thank you. We now know the man accused in the deadly shooting in Arizona bought his gun at a sportsman's warehouse totally illegally. We'll take a look at how he was able to do that and what kind of gun laws were on the books in Arizona.

I'll also talk to a representative of Arizona's 8th district before Gabrielle Giffords for several decades about how he felt when he was in office. That is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Want to take you back to the shootings in Arizona, including that of congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. And perhaps you have seen this but perhaps you haven't. I want to play some sound from the sheriff of Pima County, Arizona, where the shootings took place.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF CLARENCE DUBNIK, PIMA COUNTY, ARIZONA: When the rhetoric about hatred, about mistrust of government, about paranoia of how government operates and to try to inflame the public on a daily basis 24 hours a day seven days a week has impact on people especially who are unbalanced personalities to begin with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: A lot, a lot has been made of those comments. I want to bring in now former Congressman Jim Kolbe, Republican of Arizona. He held the seat now held by congresswoman Giffords. Congressman, thank you for coming on. My first question to you, I don't know if you were able to hear Sheriff Dubnik's comment.

JIM KOLBE, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: I was.

BALDWIN: You were. So the political climate there has been described as toxic. I am curious, do you see a correlation between the rhetoric? He mentioned mistrust of government, paranoia and Saturday's horrific tragedy.

KOLBE: I've known Clarence for 30 plus years. He's been in office I think that long, and I have a lot of respect for him. I agree with him about the polarization of our rhetoric. We need to lower the tone.

But I think he is just wrong. I don't agree with him that making this connection between that kind of rhetoric and this incident, which appears to have been a single, very seriously unbalanced, deranged individual. I don't see the connection.

BALDWIN: So you see it as two totally different issues, dialing downtown rhetoric and, to use your words, a deranged individual.

KOLBE: I do. I think we need -- I've been talking since I left Congress four years ago -- I think we need a conversation about having a civil discourse on the issues that face this country if we're ever going to find solutions to them, and we all need to take a responsibility for that. We need to listen to each other.

But I think to make that connection and say that the lack of civil discourse today is what caused this crime to be committed I just think that's wrong.

BALDWIN: Congressman, I want to show you two clips and I want to get your response. First clip, let's roll this. This is going to be a congressional candidate Pamela Gorman. There she is. She has a submachine gun and that is how she ran for office.

OK, clip number two. This is an opponent of the president armed with an automatic weapon. This is outside an event in Arizona where Mr. Obama was speaking. This is August of 2009.

So Congressman Kolbe, I guess my question is, some of the rest of country may see that and they really worry about some of these images. Do you understand those worries?

KOLBE: Well, sure. I mean, I am concerned when I see that kind of thing. Nobody wants to see an automatic weapon around the president or any other candidate or any other officeholder. But that can happen in any state. I don't think it's necessarily just worse in Arizona than any other place. But sure I'm concerned about that.

But Gabby Giffords was a strong supporter of gun rights as I was when I was in Congress and I think that this kind of thing can happen in any place. It's a person misusing a weapon. It's not the matter of the weapon itself. We always get that confused I think as somebody misusing the weapon.

Mexico, our country right next to our state has some of the strongest gun laws in the world, and 11,000 people died there last year in these cartel wars.

BALDWIN: You wouldn't agree though that the accusations that your state, that Arizona is leaning on guns, the fact that it's one of three states which allow people to carry concealed guns without permits or any kind of training?

KOLBE: No. I don't think that's the -- I don't think that's the issue at all here, and I don't think, what would changing those laws have had to do with this individual who is accused of this crime? I don't see the connection.

BALDWIN: Just curious, a lot of people are bringing that into the conversation given what happened over the weekend.

KOLBE: I know that.

BALDWIN: I want to bring in my colleague Jessica Yellin who there is in Tucson. Do you have a question for Congressman Kolbe?

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, sir. I'm curious. I've heard you say that the leaders of the country should tone down the rhetoric, and yet there is no way to connect what the rhetoric does to any larger impetus in our culture that could turn somebody radicalized in some way.

My question is, what do you think both sides should do to tone down the rhetoric? If there is this backing away, you say we should but then you say it has nothing to do with what's happening. What do we need to do now to get this rhetoric changed?

KOLBE: No, I did not say that kind of rhetoric can't have some impact on events. I just don't see in this case that it did. Everything we've seen about this guy in class, he was a very disturbed individual, frightening a lot of people. I just don't see that the discourse we're having or lack of civil discourse really had to do with his --

YELLIN: Would you explicitly call on leaders of both sides of the aisle to change their language in what way?

KOLBE: I would say we should be changing our language not necessarily because of -- strictly because of this incident. If this causes it to happen that's a good outcome of a terrible tragedy. But what we should be doing is having leaders on both sides lowering the level of the rhetoric, stop making accusatory statements, listening to each other, and actually carrying on the discussion, because I think what the American people want is to find solutions to tremendous problems we're facing in this country. And you're not going to do that if you're shouting at each other. You have to be listening and talking with each other.

BALDWIN: Jessica, thank you so much for weighing in there. I also want to thank former Congressman Jim Kolbe. Thank you, and perhaps we will see more listening and less yelling here in the days and weeks and months to come. Thank you both.

And I want to remind you al we will be hearing from the Arizona governor Jan Brewer here any minute now really. We're waiting for her to speak to give her anticipated state of the state address. What comments, what questions, what concerns may she bring to the table with regard to what happened over the weekend? We will wait and see and bring that to you.

Also, out of Phoenix, we are keeping a close eye on the federal courthouse there because any minute now as well we are expecting the man accused in Saturday's deadly shooting in Tucson to arrive, and as soon as that happens we will take you there live. These are live pictures just outside of that courthouse.

And we're also going to take you as clearly we pointed out, part of the story very much so emanates from Capitol Hill, their security for lawmakers now being reexamined. Stay right there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: Welcome back. More on Arizona, and part of the whole conversation is also what about the Tea Party movement? Last November Congresswoman Giffords narrowly defeated a Tea Party backed opponent and Giffords' father has said the whole Tea Party was her enemy. Before we go on, that is not to suggest that the suspect was tied to any Tea Party movement or that the movement itself is in any way tied to what happened this past weekend. Again, this is really just more about the climate here.

Joining me once again from Tucson my colleague Jessica Yellin. Jessica, I know you've been out there talking to Tea Party folks and how are they responding?

YELLIN: Well, Brooke, they're frustrated in a word. Some won't talk to us because they don't want to get caught up in the media mayhem they say and others I interviewed a man with the Tea Party group here in Tucson who feels that they're being singled out, that this is not, since there is no known connection we shouldn't even be having this conversation about rhetoric.

Here is a little bit about what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

YELLIN: Congresswoman Giffords, her opponent in the race was a Tea Party candidate who published at one point an ad that said something about targeting her and let's go out on the shooting range and do shooting practice. Did that go too far?

TRENT HUMPHRIES, ORGANIZER, ARIZONA TEA PARTIES: That goes too far. You have Barack Obama at one point said if they bring a knife will you bring a gun? I guess we could all look at what we do. To say it's just a creature of the right is dishonest. All of the politics and the things going right now are almost exclusively from the left.

YELLIN: Explain that. So you think the right to be singled out after this?

HUMPHRIES: Definitely. To say that's not -- it's apparent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: It's apparent. So he is very frustrated, Jess.

YELLIN: He is incredibly frustrated. And he says he has received e-mails that are hostile. No over the threats but "you have blood on your hands." Who else are you going to go after next? That kind of thing that is very upsetting to him.

I should note there's been a lot of traffic on the web about this President Obama comment when he was a candidate saying if they bring a knife we'll bring a gun, because they're saying, look, he said, used gun imagery before. It's a quote from "The Untouchables" and did say it once and we've never found an instance of him saying it again.

And the Democrats' response is there is no equivalency. This is not the kind of language you hear on the left. So the big picture frame here Brooke is even more tension after this with the left seeing signs, making accusations and the right, too. BALDWIN: Back and forth.

YELLIN: The post-partisanship hasn't come yet.

BALDWIN: Back and forth. What about, Jessica, we just mentioned Congresswoman Giffords, she narrowly defeated a member of the Tea Party to win this past November. What was the tone of her campaign for Congress this past time?

YELLIN: It was really, really rough. As I mentioned there, the Tea Party opponent said at one point, you know, ran an ad, "Come to a shooting range and we'll have target practice. We're going to take out Giffords." And, you know, it was quite, the gun imagery was very clear there.

Of course he never advocated violence in any way, is not speaking to the media now, and again, conservatives feeling very, very upset and frustrated that this is in any way any part of the conversation. But it was Giffords' own father who said, when asked after the shooting, does she have any enemies. And he said, yes, the Tea Party. So it is in the conversation.

BALDWIN: It is indeed. Jessica Yellin for me in Tucson, thank you.

Also you know members of Congress obviously upset today about the shooting this past weekend in Arizona but there is also a little worry here about their own security.

I want to bring in Senior Congressional Correspondent Dana Bash. We showed the pictures of the hundreds of members of Congress this morning, a moment of silence there on the steps of the building. It is a pointed picture. I imagine the mood still very reflective and somber.

DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It is reflective and somber. Eleanor Holmes Norton came down off the stairs and she was crying. It was just visible. There is no question about it.

But on the note of that congresswoman and others, there is an issue of safety and security, and I have talked to so many members of Congress in the last two days who have said, look, the bottom line is that there is no way that the capitol police or any other law enforcement agency can protect all of these members as much as possible, you know, all the time. It's just not going to happen.

And many of them say we don't want it to happen because that is what would prevent us from doing the most basic parts of our job, which is going out and talking to constituents. Listen to what Eleanor Holmes Norton told us on that issue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, (D) D.C. DELEGATE: I have never, for a moment, in a very violent city feared for my safety and if I had to think about that, it would be very difficult for me to be a member of the House of Representatives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Brooke, having said that I have had another member says anybody who tells you that they're not scared, they're not telling you the truth. You know, lots of other members, Democrats and Republicans have said, look. It is tough out there.

Jason Chaffetz, for example, of Utah, he said he is most fearful in his home district even at his residence and he is proposing the idea of taking the U.S. marshal service which primarily deals with federal judiciary system and maybe using them in the future to deal with members of Congress when they need them. so lots of discussion, certainly just the beginning, Brooke.

BALDWIN: You know, that's the tangible part of the discussion. There is also the intangible which is all of this talk about this vitriolic rhetoric making the political atmosphere more difficult and possibly more dangerous.

BASH: You were just talking to Jessica about this and she was saying conservatives are very angry because they feel they are getting blamed for no reason because there is no evidence that the alleged shooter had any political reason that he was ginned up by the political rhetoric, I should say.

Having said that, Democrats can right out of the box, some of them, at least, Dick Durbin was on our own Candy Crowley's show on Sunday. And one of the first things he said is, aha, this is proof the rhetoric needs to be toned down and made a not so subtle allusion to Sarah Palin.

So I can tell it isn't just Republicans. Emanuel Cleaver, the new chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus, Democrats say dumb things, too. We all need to stop it.

BALDWIN: Jessica made that point, people she's been talking to Arizona, happening on both sides of the political item. And Congressman Kolbe said, bottom line, time to listen. Less yelling, more listening. Dana Bash for me on Capitol Hill, thank you.

BASH: Thank you.

BALDWIN: I also want to remind you we are keeping our eye on the federal courthouse in Phoenix, live pictures. We are waiting for the man accused in Saturday's shooting. As soon as he arrives we will take you there live.

We're also watching and waiting for Governor Jan Brewer to give her state of the state address. It looks like people still milling out, perhaps a couple of minutes away. Let's sneak a break in and be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: All right, welcome back. Live pictures, round of applause for the governor of Arizona, Jan Brewer. She is in and out of this room. Here she is walking up toward the podium. We'll get to her in just a moment giving her state of the state. First, I just also want to remind you --

GOV JAN BREWER, (R) ARIZONA: Thank you. Thank you all.

BALDWIN: Actually, looks like she's starting. Let's listen. Governor Jan Brewer.

BREWER: And good afternoon Speaker Adams, President Pierce, honorable senators and representatives of the centennial legislature, Chief Justice Birch and justices of the Supreme Court, constitutional officers, tribal leaders, honored guests, and my fellow Arizonans.

I had intended to deliver a state of the state address today, remarks that outline an exciting and solid plan for job creation, education, and tax reform. And I will deliver that plan to you, but not now, not today.

Tragedy and terror sometimes comes from the shadows and steal our joy and take away our peace. That happened on Saturday, when a gunman took away people we love, innocent people and outstanding public servants, like United States district judge John M. Roll. Judge Roll had just come from the light of a Catholic mass and confronted the darkness of a madman.

The gunman gravely wounded others, people we love and respect, like Gabby Giffords, my good friend.

This past weekend's events have caused me -- caused all of us to reflect on many things, including how we respond to those terrible events. First, our response to this tragedy must be led by prayer and comfort for the victims and their families. So please join me in a moment of silence as we pray for all of those we've lost. For the injured and for those who are suffering.

Thank you. With our faith and our courage tightly in place, we will step forward from this chamber, dedicated to do the lord's work, continuing our service to the public. One year ago from this very place, I told you I would serve beside you, proud to serve the people of Arizona. I said then that public service is acting not in self- interest but on behalf of others, and I ask people to join me in the field.

Gabby Giffords did join me in the field, and we worked together, knowing that when our public service ended, we would be judged less by what we achieved and what we overcame.

In addition to Judge Roll, Arizona also lost Dorothy Morris, Doreen Stoddard, Phyllis Schneck, and Gabriel Zimmerman.

Let me take a moment to recognize the acts of extraordinary Arizonans who responded with professionalism and saved lives, law enforcement, emergency responders, the Tucson medical community, and the staff at university medical center. Daniel Hernandez, a University of Arizona junior, showed no fear in the face of gunfire. His quick action in going to Gabby Giffords' aid likely saved her life. Daniel is here today and I'm going to ask him to stand and receive the thanks of a very grateful state. Daniel.

(APPLAUSE)

It was a sunny Saturday at the supermarket in northwest Tucson. It was a picture of what our country is all about, public servants doing their duty, citizens old and young coming to hear, coming to participate in the beauty of our government in action.

We lost someone else on Saturday, nine-year-old Christina green who was just elected to her student council. She was hoping to be a positive part of the future of America, and she has become just that. She loved baseball. She was the only girl on her Little League baseball team and she loved to wear red, white and blue.

I should tell you, Christina was born on September 11th, 2001. She thought of her birthday as a day of hope, a time to find goodness in America. And as her mother said, her light shines on all of us today.

Saturday's events were not just an attack on those individuals we loved and lost, but an assault on our constitutional republic, on our democracy, on all we pressure and all hold dear as citizens and public servants.

Arizona is in pain, yes. Our grief is profound. We are yet in the first hours of our sorrow, but we have not been brought down. We will never be brought down.

(APPLAUSE)

BREWER: In fact, we've been lifted up by America's thoughts and prayers, and we're deeply grateful for them. Arizona, like all of America, has been through difficult times before, but those times have united us and made us stronger, more enduring. Let those of us who serve our state and country do so in a way that honors those that we have lost.

Our meetings on sunny days will not end. Like the words from Isaiah, I believe Arizona will rise on wings like eagles. We will run and not get weary. We will walk and not grow weak.

So, I ask for your help and your continued prayers as we step from here and guide this great state with courage and devotion.

May God bless all the victims and their families and those suffering from Saturday's tragedy. My God bless those who serve us in the cause of freedom and justice. May he bless you and your families and the great state of Arizona. And may God always bless and protect the United States of America. Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

BALDWIN: Arizona Governor Jan Brewer, she was scheduled to give the State of the State today, and as she said that would not happen, not now, not today. Instead, she took a moment to remember the victims of Saturday's shootings, also to honor one of the heroes, that 20-year- old intern who helped Congresswoman Giffords as she lay there shot in the brain, grateful for thoughts, according to the Arizona governor -- grateful for thoughts and prayers from everyone across the country.