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Nancy Grace
Baby Drowns While Mother`s on FaceBook
Aired January 27, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. Thirty miles north of Denver. A cute, young mom addicted to FaceBook, constantly plays Cafe World, poking friends on line, watching videos, tagging photos. Bombshell tonight, while Mommy sits in the living room racking up points on the Cafe World, the FaceBook game, where`s her 13-month-old baby boy? He`s face down, drowned in the family bathtub. Thanks, Mommy!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A Colorado mom faces decades behind bars after police say her 13-month-old son drowned in the family bathtub while Mommy was playing Cafe World on FaceBook.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On FaceBook.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FaceBook.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FaceBook.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty-four-year-old Shannon Johnson allegedly told police her son, Joseph, was in the bathtub while she was on her laptop playing Cafe World, checking on friends` status and sharing videos.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On FaceBook.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FaceBook.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: FaceBook.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Johnson allegedly told cops she checked on Joseph once in 10 minutes and he was fine. But three minutes later, she didn`t hear him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When she went and checked on him, he was face down on his side in the water.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shannon Johnson is now charged in his death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Johnson told them this is not the first time she`s left Joseph alone in the bathtub, that she had actually done it for the last couple weeks. According to a police affidavit, Shannon Johnson allegedly told police he really wanted to be left alone. He was a very independent baby.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, Colorado. Police on routine night patrol spot a blue Subaru SUV, seemingly abandoned in a parking lot. Taking a closer look, the cop spots two people. Cop does a safety check and finds two people in the car, all right, a teen boy and a 31-year-old female high school teacher, both without a stitch on. Only other thing in the car, a bottle of vodka.
Breaking tonight. Did the married mom of two booze up a boy, get his clothes off, then sexually assault him in the back of her soccer mom SUV? Where`s teacher tonight? Oh, no, she`s not behind bars, she`s walking free!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty-one-year-old Courtney Bowles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reports say she was considered to be a good educator.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Helping teachers develop better classroom strategies since December of 2009.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mother of two.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Married high school instructor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was in this closed north lake park just after 10:30, police say they found a parked vehicle.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The arresting officer claims when she approached the vehicle (INAUDIBLE) and the 16-year-old male student were naked in a Subaru SUV. The officer says the teacher could be seen on top of the student and quickly jumped off when she saw the police officer`s flashlight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She faces investigation of three felonies for sex assault and contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police also find a bottle of vodka and Sprite soda, both allegedly admitting she purchased the booze before picking up the student.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If convicted of those charges, she would have to register as a sex offender and her teaching career would likely be over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Vodka and Sprite? I guess if you`re going to go, you`ve got to go all the way and go first class, Teacher.
Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Thirty miles north of Denver, Mommy sits in the living room racking up points on Cafe World, the FaceBook game. Where is her 13-month-old baby boy? He`s face down, drowned in the family tub.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The unthinkable. Cops say a mom was playing a FaceBook game on line while her 13-month-old infant drowned in the bathtub and died.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was face down on his side in the water.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But that`s not all. Shannon Johnson allegedly tells police she was also checking on the status updates of friends and sharing videos from her living room.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Johnson claims her son was a very independent baby. According to the police affidavit, Shannon Johnson allegedly told police she knew what it was like to be told no, she didn`t want her baby to be told no and didn`t want him to be known as a mama`s boy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Johnson claims the boy was in the tub for 10 minutes and she checked on him, but then claimed just three minutes later.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Estimated time, about three minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She didn`t hear anything. When she goes to check on him, he`s face down in the water.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Estimated time, about three minutes or so. Didn`t hear anything. And when she went and checked on him, it was at that point in time that he was face down on his side in the water.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." An independent baby, Jean? He`s 13 months old. I don`t even remember if the twins were walking at 13 months. An independent baby? How can you be an independent 13-month-old?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": And he wanted to be left alone. And she wanted to leave him alone. You know, this started as a normal morning. She got up, Shannon Johnson, at 8:30. Her 13-month-old got up. She put him in the high chair. She fed him breakfast. Then she drew the bath water in the bathtub. She must have put him in the bathtub, and then she left. Why? Because she went on FaceBook in the living room.
GRACE: I just don`t get it, Jean. Has this lady been living under a rock? Apparently not, because she`s on FaceBook. How many times have we talked about not leaving a baby in the tub?
CASAREZ: Her response to that is, I know it was stupid. It was really stupid. But I know what it`s like to be told, No, you can`t do it, and I didn`t want that for him. He wanted to be left alone.
GRACE: Wanted to be left alone. We are taking your calls. Out to Matt Zarrell, our producer on the story. Weigh in, Matt.
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: (INAUDIBLE) was is that she was checking on friends` status and doing a game called Cafe World, which is a simulated game on FaceBook, very familiar with, like, Farmville, where users own a restaurant, and then these people can -- they can build a restaurant and pick their menus, pick what food they want to order. And apparently, she was so enamored with this game that she was not paying any attention to the baby because she said for 10 minutes, she only checked on him once. Checked on him. She (SIC) was fine. Comes back three minutes later. She doesn`t hear him, goes back, finds him face down in the water.
GRACE: OK, explain to me Cafe World.
ZARRELL: Yes, it`s a simulated game where players own a restaurant. And what they can do, is they can pick certain dishes that they want, certain spices to change the way the restaurant works.
GRACE: Whoa! Stop! A computer game where you pick the food, the imaginary food? No, you pick the imaginary spices you`re going to put in the imaginary food at your imaginary cafe? Is that what you just said? And who eats -- what imaginary people eat the imaginary food?
ZARRELL: That`s a good question, Nancy. The game is all based on a point system similar to Farmville, where users get points based on how many people come to visit. It`s a very social game where people off of FaceBook will come to certain restaurants and try stuff, and the user gets points as a result.
GRACE: Matt, stop! Stop talking like that! Nobody`s visiting a restaurant! Nobody`s eating at a restaurant, Matt! It`s pretend. Don`t say you get points based on how many people come to your restaurant, all right? It`s a game. So if you win the game, what do you get?
ZARRELL: The only thing you get is points, which could buy...
GRACE: But what good are they? What do you do with points?
ZARRELL: You can get more items.
GRACE: More items? What items?
ZARRELL: More items for the restaurant. You can get more food for the restaurant.
GRACE: I said quit talking like that! You don`t get food, all right? There is no restaurant! So what are you -- what -- stop!
Let`s go to Brad Lamm. Brad Lamm, what is he talking about? What do you mean, you get food and you get people to come to -- I know it`s a game. You don`t get anything!
BRAD LAMM, INTERVENTIONIST: I think he`s trying to make sense of something that`s kind of a stupid time vacuum that a lot of people (INAUDIBLE) I`m bet you have a friend that cannot put their BlackBerry down, no matter what you do. You go to a movie, you go to the theater, and they can`t stop using their BlackBerry. I anticipate this is the excuse she`ll give, say that she has some addiction to the Internet or to FaceBook, and that that`s why this happened.
GRACE: Let me tell you something, Brad Lamm. I know that you`re the expert, but even my cat, may he rest in heaven now -- I had him 19 years. Even my cat would hate it when I would get on the BlackBerry. Do you think my children don`t know it? You know...
LAMM: Yes, but...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: ... BlackBerry and bring it to me. You know, that`s when I knew it was wrong.
LAMM: Maybe this game, though, is the modern-day soap opera, you know what I mean, where moms go check out of what they were doing, to check in, to do something else to make their life more meaningful. Look, I don`t agree with it. It`s a knuckleheaded thing to do. It`s a horrible response or outcome, of course. But...
GRACE: OK, back to you, Matt Zarrell. OK, Matt, remember, it`s not you -- I`m not upset with you, but I wish you wouldn`t talk as if you`re really getting food and people are really coming to your cafe. It`s just an on-line game. Nobody`s getting anything. And when you get all the points in the world, what do you have? You`ve got two or three wasted hours of the day, where you have accomplished absolutely nothing.
Now, let me go through the timeline one more time with you. Jean Casarez, tell me again what happened because I`m trying to figure out if I want this lady charged with murder. Go ahead.
CASAREZ: According to the affidavit, says that 8:30, she got up. At 8:30, she put her...
GRACE: She got up at 8:30?
CASAREZ: Yes. In the morning.
GRACE: OK, that`s felony lazy right there. Go ahead.
CASAREZ: At 8:35, breakfast. Put little Joseph Johnson in the high chair, fed him his apple cinnamon cereal raspberry bar, and then drew the bath water, put him in the bath water, came out, was on FaceBook for 10 minutes. She heard him playing in the tub. She went in to check on him once, came back out. He was playing. He was fine. But then, all of a sudden, three minutes after that -- so we`re at 13 minutes now -- she didn`t hear anything. She went back in the bathtub, found him on his side with his face in the water.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. We`re about to head to the lines first. Susan Moss, family law attorney, New York, John Burris, famed defense attorney, San Francisco, Alan Ripka, defense attorney New York.
Susan Moss, I will never forget the first time I had to get something while I had one of the twins in the tub. I was so afraid, I backed out of the room, watching the twin, and then I ran. I ran. I can`t even remember what it was I had to go get, baby soap or something. I literally ran. You know what? I was so afraid in those 30 seconds I was gone, from then on, I would take the baby out and sit it on the floor if I had to leave the tub.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Nancy, this was not an accident! When you look at the facts, she was on a laptop -- a laptop! If she really -- this wasn`t an accident! She could have taken the laptop into the bathroom. She didn`t! And that says to me more than just negligence, that this was her just absolutely ignoring this child! She should have been changing her FaceBook status to "worst mother ever."
GRACE: And I`m very curious, how do I know that she was on line? I mean, how do I know that she wasn`t in that bathroom? How do I know this wasn`t a cold-blooded murder? That`s my question tonight. A 13-month-old baby drowns while Mommy plays a game on FaceBook.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Colorado police say a mother played on FaceBook while her 13-month-old son drowned in the bathtub. Thirty-four-year-old Shannon Johnson is charged with child abuse resulting in death after police say her son, Joseph, was found unresponsive in the bathtub with his face in the water. Johnson allegedly told police she was playing Cafe World on FaceBook and had checked on Joseph once in 10 minutes. Three minutes later, Johnson allegedly told police, she returned to the bathtub to find Joseph sideways with his face in the water. When cops asked Johnson she left her son alone in the bathtub, she allegedly told investigators that she didn`t understand why she did it and it was so stupid.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Fatima, Florida. Hi, Fatima.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just love your show. And I just love your kids, your twins. They are just so adorable.
GRACE: Let me tell you something tonight, I had to sneak out. If they see me with shoes on or anything other than sweats and a T-shirt, they get -- they freak out because they know I`m going somewhere. I had to sneak out in the cold with a T-shirt -- a white T-shirt and sweatpants, workout pants, barefoot. And then I go outside, and I`ll put on a hat and a coat and shoes so they don`t get upset. And now I just can`t take in this mother leaving the 13-month-old in a tub of water and saying he`s independent.
What about it, Fatima?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I just have a comment. I just would like to say that she`s just an unfit mother. She`s just unfit. Because that`s a good time to bond with your child. That used to be a good time for me, when I had my kids, when they were younger, to just bathe them and just, you know, bond with them. It`s just -- it`s ridiculous.
GRACE: OK, Fatima, sometimes I will bathe one twin. We will be in there -- I know you`re not going to believe this, but sometimes I`ve had Lucy in the bathtub from 6:30 to 8:30 at night on the weekends. We eat. I feed her in there. She`s a difficult eater. I read stories to her. I wash her hair. John David, pretty much the same thing. We do different things. I can be in there with him over an hour, then he wants to jump out and put on a Spider-man outfit.
But you`re right, that a time that you can play, you can feed them, you can read books to them. I`ve taught both children how to spell their names, sitting in the bathtub, playing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know.
GRACE: I don`t understand it. Matt Zarrell, what do we think the actual charges are going to be? Is it going to be voluntary manslaughter? On that she could get, like, six years -- as opposed to aggravated child assault -- aggravated child endangerment resulting in death. That could end up in, like, 48 years, right?
ZARRELL: Yes. Nancy, she`s actually unfortunate that she didn`t get murder two or manslaughter or criminally negligent homicide. With this specific penalty under Colorado law, she can get 48 years, which is more than any of those other charges.
GRACE: Explain that, Jean Casarez.
CASAREZ: ... statute in Colorado. It is that she knew or should have known that what she did by leaving that bathroom could cause death or serious bodily injury. And that is child abuse causing death, maximum 48 years. And Nancy, she`s already 34 years old. She could get out and she`s 81.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Sue Moss, Alan Ripka, John Burris. What`s your defense, John Burris?
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t think that this is -- there`s no intent to commit a crime here.
GRACE: Well, put him up! Put him up, put him up, put him up!
BURRIS: No, not so. You -- there`s no intent...
GRACE: No, that`s just what you say...
BURRIS: ... to commit a crime.
GRACE: ... about drunk driving. You say there`s no intent to have a crash.
BURRIS: I said there`s no intent to commit a crime.
GRACE: But there is intent to run a bath full of water and put an infant in it. What more do you need to intend to do?
BURRIS: Well, it`s certainly negligent, OK? There`s no question she`s negligent. There`s child endangerment. But you talk about murder, you`re talking about the intent to kill someone. You`re talking about the intent...
GRACE: No.
BURRIS: ... and gross recklessness...
GRACE: It`s the intent to do the act. I raise the gun to your head...
BURRIS: Well, the act here is run the water...
GRACE: ... and I pull the trigger and I...
BURRIS: ... and to bathe a child.
GRACE: ... say, Oh, I just meant to scare you.
BURRIS: It`s a very innocent -- it`s a very innocent act, OK?
GRACE: It`s not innocent!
BURRIS: Clearly, she has negligence here. It is negligence. I mean, no question about that.
GRACE: What about it, Sue Moss?
BURRIS: She`s suffering -- she`s going to suffer a lot as it is, and I don`t think it should be anything more than involuntary manslaughter.
GRACE: Sue?
MOSS: Oh, absolutely not! And the fact -- she didn`t do this once! She didn`t do this twice! Apparently, she did this over several weeks! Her mother even told her that this was horrifically dangerous and you shouldn`t do it! We`re not even getting to the fact that the child previously had seizures! So under no circumstances should the child be left alone! And she`s in another room, another room for at least 10 minutes! I mean, the child -- it was foreseeable, could have had a seizure!
Of course this is child abuse! And if that child abuse, as it did. resulted in death, we`re talking about 48 years!
GRACE: Alan Ripka, that changes the whole scenario, the fact that she had been warned about how dangerous this was, the fact that she knew her baby had seizures. That changes everything.
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, if the prosecutor can show that she was well aware that this baby was at a heightened danger than normally other babies would, then she could really have a much higher charge. But other than that, this is an accident. She`s horrified by this. There`s no history of abuse or child abuse. So I don`t see it going there, Nancy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Law enforcement says a Colorado mother left her baby in the tub unattended so she could surf and play games on FaceBook. But tragedy strikes and 13-month-old Joseph Johnson drowns. Shannon Johnson allegedly admits to police this wasn`t the first time she left the baby alone in the bathtub. She claims she`s left Joseph alone in the tub many times the past few weeks, even allegedly telling police, Joseph is a very independent baby. Shannon Johnson now facing charges of child abuse resulting in death, and if guilty, could spend decades behind bars.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. I want to go to you, Brad Lamm. How can you be so addicted to a game on FaceBook that you let your baby drown to death? And I`ve got the police affidavit. Not only did the baby suffer from seizures -- and this is coming from the mother herself, who sat by and let the baby drown in the tub -- she knew he had seizures. She also says he had a balance problem. Yet she left him sitting in the bathtub. He`s only 13 months.
LAMM: Well, I don`t think there`s any excuse for the behavior. I`m curious, Jean, do you know if there was a tox screen done? Were there any presence of drugs in this woman`s body?
CASAREZ: I don`t think we know the results of that. It took a while for the cause of death to come out. We do know the cause of death. The cause of that death is anoxic brain injury, cardiac arrest and drowning.
LAMM: I meant in the mom because 9 times out of 10 when parents do something really idiotic, including involving their kids, there`s often drugs or alcohol involved. That`s what I was wondering.
CASAREZ: At 8:30 in the morning, we don`t know of anything that was in her system, no.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Mitzi in Pennsylvania. Hi, Mitzi.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just want to take a second to thank you for being a voice for all of those who can`t speak. You really are an angel.
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re welcome. And I want to ask, has there been any pattern of neglect with this mom, any prior child welfare reports, investigations? I mean, I heard she admitted that this wasn`t the first time she had left the baby in the tub alone. But is there anything on record from the child abuse agencies?
GRACE: What do we know, Jean?
CASAREZ: ... anything like that. We just know that three days before this happened, that this little baby died, her mother told authorities that she told her daughter, Don`t leave him in the tub alone. He has balance problems. He has seizures. It`s not safe.
GRACE: To Dr. Srini Pillay, joining us from Boston. Doctor, what do you make of the mom`s behavior?
DR. SRINI PILLAY, PSYCHIATRIST: Nancy, to me, this is really a case of very poor judgment, negligence. And I think the behavior is completely inappropriate and not OK.
GRACE: Do you...
PILLAY: I think we can bring up arguments...
GRACE: ... see on line as her real addiction? Could she actually be addicted to FaceBook?
PILLAY: I think she could be addicted to FaceBook. But I think the question is, if she was addicted to FaceBook, why didn`t she do anything about the care of her child, if she knew this?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to an arrest affidavit, the mom said she started leaving him alone in the bathtub because he was independent. If she`s convicted, she could get up to 48 years in prison.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It was in this closed North Lake Park just after 10:30 --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Courtney, do you want to say anything?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nope.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say they found a parked vehicle with a married high school instructor.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So people could feel better about this.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A tenth grader was found naked in the car with a 31-year-old teacher.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Here we go again. Yet another teacher/student sex scandal.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She faces investigation of three felonies, for sex assault, and contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say they saw Bowles on top of the student as they approached.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you feel sorry for this child at least?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: That`s not all, cops also find booze in the car.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Courtney, say something so people can know who you are.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A judge orders the mother of two to stay away from anyone younger than 18, even her own two kids.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls. I want to go out to Nia Bender, news director at 710 KNUS.
Nia, what happened?
NIA BENDER, NEWS DIRECTOR, 710 KNUS RADIO: Well, basically Courtney Bowles went to a park in northern Colorado, and she was in the park after hours. She went by and she picked up the vodka as well as some Sprite, and then she picked up the student. They went to the park where they began fooling around basically after hours.
An officer noticed a car on the end of the park, and decided to go check it out. When the officer walked up to the car with her flashlight, that`s when she noticed that both of the people in the car were nude. And that the teacher was involved. The student basically lied about his age, right off the bat. And it kind of took place from there.
GRACE: Nia Bender, may I ask you if this had been a 31-year-old man with a teen student, a 16-year-old girl, would you still have referred to it as fooling around?
BENDER: Absolutely not. There is a double standard there. I do have to admit. You know, generally you think, and this is probably the wrong thought, but you generally think when an older man sleeps with a teenage girl, that there could be some kind of -- not mental damage, but there`s a whole lot more there that can go wrong.
And you have the tendency to think sometimes that it isn`t the same as a teenage boy and older woman. That`s not necessarily true. But you were right about that.
GRACE: Actually, it`s not. It`s not true. Period. And what you`re saying typifies a complete miscarriage of justice, where a woman is treated differently, as she sexually molests a child, than if a man does.
You are looking at Courtney Bowles, a 31-year-old married mother of two. She was found by police in a sex act with a child. A young boy. After buying vodka, mixing it with Sprite, allegedly getting the boy drunk, getting his clothes off, and molesting him.
Where is she tonight, Rupa Mikkilineni?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: She is out of jail. She was arrested Friday, taken into custody and released on Saturday. I believe the court let her out on her own recognizance. But it is a personal bond of $50,000 which is co-signed, we don`t know by who, Nancy.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Miranda in Alabama. Hi, Miranda.
MIRANDA, CALLER FROM ALABAMA: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
MIRANDA: Well, I had one statement. I`m a mother of two sons. And if a woman was caught in that situation with one of mine, I would want it to be handled like a man doing that with a younger girl.
GRACE: You`re darned right, Miranda.
MIRANDA: Yes.
GRACE: And getting out of jail on a low bond is not part of that. Go ahead, dear.
MIRANDA: OK. And the question would be, was he a student of hers?
GRACE: What about it, Rupa? Was he a student of hers?
MIKKILINENI: Nancy, this is not clear because the position that she had at this school is she was actually an instructor of teachers. And what`s really interesting is she`s supposed to teach these teachers how to behave with their students.
GRACE: Brad Lamm, help me out. You think that anything from cocaine, heroin, meth, beer, alcohol, BlackBerries, online porn, that you can`t have an addiction to just about anything. Explain how that fits into this scenario.
BRAD LAMM, BOARD CERTIFIED INTERVENTIONIST, AUTHOR OF "JUST 10 LBS": Well, clearly it lowers your inhibition so both -- you know, even if this case, with a kid involved, I don`t believe that there`s any way that consent could be involved here. But one thing I see, time and time again, and people struggling with addiction, is trauma.
So she is teeing this young guy up for later problems with addiction without a doubt. I think there`s no excuse, addiction or no.
GRACE: Back to the lines. We are taking your calls. To Mel in Florida. Hi, Mel.
MEL, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. My question is, do we know if this teacher has done this before? Or if there`s any other victims in the school? And how will they find this information out?
GRACE: How would you find out? To you, Nia Bender -- Nia is joining us from Denver, Colorado. What do we know about her history?
BENDER: She doesn`t have anything in her history. The school did go ahead and they made it clear that they were going to fully cooperate with the Loveland Police Department. And they did send out letters and notify parents. And no one else has come forward. So they do believe that there are no additional students involved in this.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Unleash the lawyers. Sue Moss, Alan Ripka, John Burris.
Sue Moss, she has gotten so much less than a slap on the wrist. She`s out on bond. This is after specifically targeting a teen boy, underage. She`s 31, a mom, a married mom of two. Gets him drunk and molests him.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: What`s she teaching, anatomy? I mean it`s absolutely outrageous. The fact that this kid is going to be affected emotionally the rest of his life. He may not see that now, but we`re going to see that in the future.
The emotional impact of probably having sex before he`s ready to do so, and the fact that she -- and you know that this is a problem because she had to feed him alcohol. The fact that she brought alcohol also contributing to his delinquency shows what her state of mind was.
That this was not some sort of consensual romantic incident. That she was abusing this child, she was molesting this child, and she should be punished accordingly.
GRACE: Alan Ripka, defense attorney out of New York, what`s your defense?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the bottom line is, she obviously has severe psychological and mental problems. And I`m sure if she --
GRACE: Why do you say that?
RIPKA: Because obviously if you have two kids at home and you`re a teacher and you`re abusing a young boy sexually, you have mental illness. And a doctor --
GRACE: Put him back up.
RIPKA: Yes?
GRACE: What are you talking about? People commit crimes every day that are not mentally ill. This is a crime. Why is your defense immediately mental illness? They let her out with practically no bound. They must think she`s safe.
RIPKA: Well, no, they let her out because there`s no risk to flee. She`s got a husband and two kids at home.
GRACE: No. No.
RIPKA: Where is she going?
GRACE: The statute says you can`t be a risk to others. And if you`re mentally ill, and you`ve already preyed upon one child, that doesn`t mean you`re not going to attack another child.
RIPKA: Well, in the court`s eyes, they didn`t think that she would. And obviously, if this is an isolated incident, never happened before, you know, she has some severe problems that she has to overcome. And it sounds like she needs a lot of help.
GRACE: John Burris, give me something better than insanity.
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, no. Actually -- I wouldn`t say insanity. But I do agree that obviously this woman is going through some problems. She`s led a pretty normal life as we can see.
GRACE: You can say that about Scott Peterson, too.
BURRIS: I know. But you know this is not Scott Peterson. This is about a lady --
GRACE: Yes, I know. But I mean that`s not a defense.
BURRIS: Who is a teacher, who was a teacher, trying to be a teacher, and all of a sudden she gets caught up with something like this. I`ve got to believe psychologically something has happened to this woman.
That doesn`t mean she`s insane. It just means you have to consider this in terms of your assessment of what you`re going to do with her at a later point and what kind of help she needs. Because she obviously needs some help.
GRACE: To Dr. Holly Phillips , what would effect would vodka and Sprite have on a 16-year-old boy who didn`t drink before?
DR. HOLLY PHILLIPS, M.D., INTERNAL MEDICINE: It would really severely impair his judgment. He probably has no tolerance for the alcohol and she can more easily manipulate him on top of all of the other emotional manipulations.
GRACE: And to Steve Kardian, how do you prove a case like this? Although she`s pretty much admitted.
STEVE KARDIAN, FMR. POLICE DETECTIVE, SELF-DEFENSE EXPERT, LEAD INSTRUCTOR AT DEFEND UNIVERSITY: Well, the police officer that responded to that scene did a great job. You know most officers would just show up and shoo them off.
But she did the right thing, checked their identification. She went through and made sure that they weren`t in danger. And she identified him as a minor. And she did a great job. So she`s going to be their prime witness and it`s going to be a good case.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Here we go again. Yet another teacher/student sex scandal.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Courtney, do you want to say anything?
COURTNEY BOWLES, TEACHER: Nope.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A tenth grader was found naked in the car with a 31-year-old teacher. And now Courtney Bowles is facing jail time.
GRACE: Another teacher behind bars.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police allegedly catch her sexually assaulting the boy in her Subaru SUV. Cops say the student first tried to claim he was 20 years old. But finally admits he`s just 16.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s very special and we place great trust in them to do what is both morally and ethically right.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Bowles and the teen allegedly admit to having sex. Police say they saw Bowles on top of the student as they approached.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We may not require perfection, but we certainly do not intend teachers or any other adult to be having sexual relations with our 14-year-old children.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Now Bowles, facing sexual assault charges, and contributing to the delinquency of a minor. A judge orders the mother of two to stay away from anyone younger under 18, even her own two kids.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you feel sorry for this child at least?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A spokesman for the Thompson School District said, "We always find these situations unfortunate. And we`re saddened by the fact that this may have happened. We do background checks on all staff members and found nothing unusual about her."
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. I want to go back to Rupa Mikkilineni.
What do we know about the boy`s parents` reaction? They can`t be happy that this teacher has walked out on bond.
MIKKILINENI: Right. Nancy, what we do know is that this child, the 16-year-old child, is supposed to stay away and so -- from this suspect, and the suspect, the judge ordered that she stay away from him, his family, from any children that are under the age of 18, as well as her own children.
GRACE: To Dr. Srini Pillay, Harvard psychiatrist, author of "Life Unlocked." What effect will this have on the boy?
DR. SRINI PILLAY, HARVARD PSYCHIATRIST, AUTHOR OF "LIFE UNLOCKED": I think it`s impossible to tell exactly what the effect would be. But there are a couple of things that I think we need to be on the lookout for. One of them is an acute stress disorder which is the thing that leads to post- traumatic stress disorder because having been abused in this way could lead to a number of different symptoms.
This boy could have nightmares, he could re-experience this and have flashbacks. He could have trouble sleeping, he could have anger attacks. There are a lot of different things.
And in addition to this, I think one of the things we need to be on the lookout for is depression, or anxiety, and then self-medicating this with substance use later on in life.
GRACE: And somehow, Brad Lamm -- everybody, with me here on the set, Brad Lamm, author of a new book, "Just 10 LBS," also author of "How to Change the One You Love," other books, board certified interventionist.
What`s your Web site, Brad?
LAMM: Bladlamm.com.
GRACE: Brad, two things. Number one, I wonder if the boy is going to feel some kind of overwhelming sense of guilt because the woman is going to be arrested. Well, she has been arrested, but she`s going to be prosecuted.
LAMM: Well, that`s the problem with so much of the child sexual abuse, is that the victim has feelings of both pleasure and the trauma of it. So they don`t know quite how to handle it. Oftentimes it leads to addiction. I see that in a lot of my clients. It comes out in all different ways. Addictions of all types and disorders.
GRACE: Out of guilt? Explain.
LAMM: Well, there`s a conflicted feeling because there`s enjoyment that comes from sex, of course. They were found naked in a car. And he`s 16. Cannot give consent.
GRACE: You left out drunk.
LAMM: And drunk. Alcohol present. So there`s no consent there. And so the conflict comes from having a pleasurable experience, but knowing that it wasn`t right. That he was victimized in that.
GRACE: And so is this boy going to grow up thinking a normal sexual relationship, say, with his wife one day, that somehow there`s something wrong with that? And what about parents now? How do you look at the schoolteacher?
You know, it used to people would be suspicious of male high school students, unless they were the football coach. And now you`ve got to worry about the female teachers, too.
LAMM: But here`s the truth. There is so much more sexual abuse in both -- in families and out of families that we see. Families don`t want to talk about it. They don`t want to even look at in that direction. But this was clearly the case here. They were caught with their pants down. And it`s something the family can start to address now. And that`s a challenge I have for every family out there.
GRACE: Well, Sue Moss, there`s not a whole lot of room for doubt in this case when it goes to a jury because if you read the police affidavits, she admitted to nearly everything.
MOSS: They removed all the doubts just like they removed all their clothes. I mean and Brad said they were caught with their pants down. There is no room for doubt. She admitted it and she`s going to have to pay the price.
GRACE: To Rupa Mikkilineni, explain to me what happened when she was in court. Did she speak? Did she explain herself?
MIKKILINENI: She did. When the judge asked if you have anything to say for yourself, she said, I`m sorry.
GRACE: Well, who`s taking care of her children? I understand she has two children. How old were they?
MIKKILINENI: We don`t know how old they are, Nancy. We do know that she does have a husband, a man she`s been married to for eight years. They`ve all lived together. So we can only assume that the father is taking care of those two children. And she is more than likely no longer in that home.
GRACE: Where is she?
MIKKILINENI: We don`t know, Nancy.
GRACE: Nia Bender, joining us from KNUS 710 Radio.
Nia, where do we think she is tonight? And is she still at the school? Have they fired her yet?
BENDER: No, at this point, she is absolutely not allowed to be at the school. And so it`s where her whereabouts are at this point, we don`t know. It`s been kind of tight-lipped. The police department`s been fairly quiet about it. We have no idea where she`s at at this point.
Now she has been placed, as you know, on administrative leave from Thompson School District. She`s worked there since December of 2009. But her whereabouts at this point are unknown.
GRACE: OK. Back to you, Rupa, go through with me very carefully the timeline what happened.
MIKKILINENI: Right. On Friday, Friday evening, a police officer noticed some activity at a car -- in a car parked in a closed park, just five miles away from this high school. She flashed her flashlight into this car and saw two naked people, a male and a female.
And the male was on top of the male -- the female jumped off. They immediately got dressed. The officer asked for identification. And the 16-year-old boy lied, Nancy. He was so scared that he lied. He lied about his age, said he was 20 years old, refused to show I.D.
And when asked again, he finally pulled out his high school identification card. And that`s when they learned that he was 16 years old. A student at the same high school where this teacher teaches. And found the vodka and the Sprite bottle.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Jen in Mississippi. Hi, Jen. I think I`ve got Jen in Mississippi with me.
Jen, are you with me?
JEN, CALLER FROM MISSISSIPPI: Can you hear me?
GRACE: Yes, I can. What`s your question, dear?
JEN: Hi, Nancy, I love your show. And I love the twins.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. Thank you. What`s your question?
JEN: Thank you for sharing the photos. My question is, can this teacher sue -- I`m sorry, the parents of the boy that the teacher was having sex with, can he -- his parents sue the school?
GRACE: You know what, that`s a good question. I would say yes.
Out to Susan Moss. Give me a theory under which the parents can sue the school district.
MOSS: Well, they knew or should have known that this woman was a ticking time bomb. Also I`d be very surprised if there weren`t other victims. It`s just -- it`s pretty shocking that the first time that this type of behavior happens she gets caught.
I would start searching a lot deeper and if the school had indication there were other victims, yes, that lawsuit will go forward.
GRACE: You know this is something I don`t understand. Out to you, John Burris. Why in so many other professions you`ve got to have a psych evaluation before you can interact even in a lot of, you know, churches and synagogues before you can go to a congregation. You have to have -- you have to be shrunk. Why not with teachers?
BURRIS: Well, that`s certainly something to be said in terms of background check. But let me ask you this first. I`ve been involved in this type of case. And number one, it`s very difficult to sue a school district without some prior notice. You can sue the woman but not the school district without prior notice.
But here, I do think you do have -- you should have a psychological evaluation for all teachers who start out to make sure they`re psychologically fit for this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think there`s definitely a double standard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a part of sexist part of society. And typically a lot of times young males are looked upon as not being able to be victims.
GRACE: Another teacher accused with child molestation.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It was in this closed North Lake park just after 10:30 that Loveland Police say they found a parked vehicle. 31-year- old Courtney Bowles inside with an underage male. She faces investigation of three felonies for sex assault and contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Colorado mom faces decades behind bars after police say her 13-month-old son drowned in the family bathtub while mommy was playing "Cafe World" on Facebook.
Thirty-four-year-old Shannon Johnson allegedly told police her son Joseph was in the bathtub while she was on her laptop playing "Cafe World," checking on friends` status and sharing videos.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Kate in Kansas. Kate, what`s your question?
KATE, CALLER FROM KANSAS: My question is that you said the teacher said the boy only had one sip of alcohol?
GRACE: Yes.
KATE: Do we know --
GRACE: That is what the teacher said. What, dear?
KATE: Do we know if the -- if they did his blood alcohol content or - -
GRACE: Good question. What do we know, Nia Bender? Did they take their blood alcohol?
BENDER: There`s no mention on the blood alcohol, but I do believe on -- on the minor, but I do believe that from what I`ve heard her blood alcohol content was at zero.
GRACE: Good to know.
I want to go back to you, Brad Lamm, author of a brand new book about losing 10 pounds. But you`re all about intervention. What about the husband and the two children?
LAMM: Well, of course the obvious victim is the 16-year-old, but the overlooked victims here, too, are the husband and the kids and the question that so many folks will have is, what do we do now? I would say draw a hard and fine line in the sand and really put the welfare of your children first.
GRACE: I mean, for all I know, her children can be a classmate with the rape victim.
LAMM: Yes. Again, I think you need to make a hard line in the sand and take care of your kids first. This woman should to not be around children at this point.
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Navy Hospital Corpsman 3rd Class Christopher Thompson, 25, Millers Creek, North Carolina, killed Iraq. Awarded the Purple Heart, National Defense Service medal, Navy and Marine Corps commendation.
Inspired to enlist by an older brother David. Now in his 20th year of service. A medical facility in Iraq named in his honor. Remembered for accomplishing more in just 25 years than most do in a lifetime.
Leaves behind parents Geraldine and Larry, a Vietnam vet. Brothers, Jimmy and David, serving the Navy.
Christopher Thompson, American hero. Thanks to our guest, but our biggest thank you is to you for being with us.
See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night friend.
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