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Nancy Grace
Mom Shoots Teen Children for Being "Mouthy"
Aired January 31, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight live. Upscale Tampa suburbs, police race to an exclusive gated community and a 3,000-plus- square-foot home. A beautiful 16-year-old girl, a cross-country star, dead, sitting at her computer, doing homework in her own bedroom. Her little brother just 50 feet away, found gunned down in the home`s three-car garage, still sitting in the family SUV.
Bombshell tonight. Who is the gun-wielding shooter that claims the lives of two innocents, a 16-year-old and her little brother? It was Mommy, sitting on the back porch in her house robe covered in blood. Why? She says because they talked back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have Julie Schenecker to the podium, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An unthinkable crime in Tampa.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tampa mother charged with killing her 16-year-old daughter, Calyx, and 13-year-old son, Beau, shooting each with a handgun she had purchased just days before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officers found Julie Schenecker sitting on her back porch covered in her children`s blood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Due to the nature of your charges and the strength of the case against you at this point, Miss, you are obviously going to be held in jail without bond.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not shaking this time, but clearly weeping and clutching a tissue, 50-year-old Julie Schenecker finally made her first appearance in Hillsborough County court.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) told police she shot them because she was tired of them mouthing off, talking back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... prosecutors in bringing two counts. This is going to be a double murder case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Where`s the car?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, Florida. A gorgeous 20-year-old Florida State co-ed forced off the street kicking and screaming, forced into a silver Chrysler mini-van. Tonight, where is 20-year-old Michelle McCoy?
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, police! Come right now. Lem Turner. Lem Turner. Lem Turner and Prospect. A girl`s being kidnapped right now, and she`s being run over by the van! (INAUDIBLE) right now!
911 OPERATOR: What happened, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m watching a kidnapping going on! It`s a gray van! It`s a gray van! A gray van with four guys in it! One car (ph).
911 OPERATOR: Four guys, you said?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.
911 OPERATOR: What`s the honking I hear?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s me (INAUDIBLE) the officer.
911 OPERATOR: OK, you`re with the officer now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s passing me by! He ain`t stopping! The officer`s passing me, no lights on!
911 OPERATOR: Sir, are you going to pull over somewhere so the officers can come talk to you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m concerned about the girl. The officer can talk to me anytime. I`ve got to find this van! I`m looking for the van, whether you`re looking for it or not. I`m looking for it!
911 OPERATOR: The officers are going to want to talk to you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know that. I know. I know that. I know that. I know that! No, I`m in the neighborhood looking for the van. I`m not waiting because they`re kidnapping that girl!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight, live, upscale Tampa suburbs. Police race to an exclusive gated community, a 3,000-plus-square (SIC) home, a beautiful 16-year-old girl dead at her computer, doing her homework. Her little brother just 50 feet away, gunned down in the home`s three-car garage, still sitting there in the family SUV. And who -- who -- is the gun- wielding shooter that claims the lives of a 16-year-old girl and her little brother? It was Mommy. Why? Mommy says because they talked back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A mom is accused of killing her two teenage children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sixteen-year-old Calyx and 13-year-old Beau for being "mouthy."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said that they were mouthy to her, and that`s why she shot them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fifty-year-old Julie Schenecker cried throughout her first court appearance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The defense will request the appointment of doctors. You`re excused.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had been hospitalized in intensive care for a preexisting medical condition, a condition, say jail officials, that apparently left her shaking and contorted as they escorted her from the Tampa Police Department.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She didn`t flee. She`s sitting on the back porch with blood all over her after she was arrested. And you see her whole body shaking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s just sad that (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Due to the nature of your charges and the strength of the case against you at this point, Miss, you are obviously going to be held in jail without bond. I assume in the future, the defense will request the appointment of doctors. That`s something that`ll be taking place after they file the appropriate motions. You`re excused.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Erica Pitzi with WTSP, joining us from Tampa, Florida, outside that exclusive home, a 3,300-square-foot luxury home, the three-car garage, the works. But now it`s missing two things, the children and the Mommy. Erica, what happened?
ERICA PITZI, WTSP CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Nancy, police found these two children dead last Friday, but they believe that they were killed on Thursday night. Apparently, they say this was premeditated. That`s why Julie Schenecker, a 50-year-old Tampa woman in this very exclusive neighborhood in this part of New (ph) Tampa -- she is charged with two counts of first-degree murder. So the reason why, they say, that days prior, just about five or six days prior, they found that she bought a .38- caliber pistol that she used to kill her two children.
GRACE: OK, so this was not just a spur of the moment thing? She bought the gun days ahead of time?
PITZI: Apparently. And also, police say they found a note, and in the note that they found on Friday, she had detailed how she killed the kids and told police why. She said they were, quote, "mouthy."
GRACE: Liz, please run that video of her shaking and trembling and all wide-eyed and crazy-looking as she`s going to the police car. You know what? I bet she wasn`t like that when police picked her up.
Jean Casarez, what do we know?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": ... the police are alleging, and prosecutors, that when she was driving her little 13-year-old son to soccer practice, she shot him in the head twice. He was dead. She went back to the home, drove the car in the garage. He stayed dead in the car in the garage. Then she went to the second floor of their home, where her 16- year-old daughter was on the computer doing homework, shot her twice in the head dead. She was found the next morning in her bathrobe and slippers out in back with blood all over her.
GRACE: Liz, let me see that home again. It`s a nearly 4,000-square- foot-home, yes, with a pool, an indoor pool, and the back yard surrounded by palm trees and other multi-million-dollar homes. Let`s just say they didn`t have money problems.
Back to Erica Pitzi, joining us from WTSP, outside that Tampa home. What do the neighbors say? What do they know?
PITZI: They are completely shocked. One neighbor told us that she just wanted to grab her kids and just wrap her arms around them. They really cannot believe this. In fact, we talked to -- the 13-year-old`s son -- his name is Beau. We talked to his soccer coach just about an hour ago because he was very into soccer. He went and played on this club team here called Fusion, the football club of Tampa Bay. And these kids are just shocked.
And let me tell you this, Nancy. School today -- both of these kids - - the 16-year-old daughter, who`s Calyx, she goes to a high school. And the 13-year-old son, Beau, goes to a middle school. We are told that nearly 300 kids between the two schools sought a grief counselor today. So this is very shocking for this whole campaign.
GRACE: Standing behind Erica Pitzi, joining us from WTSP -- she`s there at the home where the shooting occurred -- you see a lot of the little boy`s soccer friends gathered around, not really knowing where else to go or what to do.
And there`s Mommy. Mommy. And from what I`m hearing of the facts -- unleash the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. I`m sure it would be convenient for you two -- Jason Oshins, New York, defense attorney, Alex Sanchez, New York, defense attorney -- to argue she, quote, "snapped," like you always do. But here you`ve got the mom buying the gun days ahead of time. And not only that, she takes it with her in the vehicle when she goes to pick up the 13-year-old boy. Come on, Oshins, give me your best shot.
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. I think, Nancy, you know, the facts are uncontroverted. And I think what you`re alluding to is an insanity or a mental health defense. I think probably...
GRACE: No, what I`m alluding to is premeditation in the form of first-degree murder. And with two bodies, that qualifies as mass murder, which qualifies for the death penalty. That`s what I`m alluding to.
OSHINS: I hear you. I ultimately don`t think it`s going to be by prosecutors` choice where they pursue the death penalty. I think that look, which will appear many times if it ultimately does go to trial, shows her in a disassociated state.
GRACE: Put Oshins up! Put him up!
OSHINS: No issue...
GRACE: Put him up!
OSHINS: ... on the premeditation. Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Did you just look at your monitor? Did you see her in court?
OSHINS: I saw her.
GRACE: She`s just standing there perfectly fine and coherent. But what, she nutted up when the cops came to pick her up? Then she got -- she returned to normalcy?
OSHINS: Nancy, first thing counsel -- first thing counsel said is the need for doctors, and I think that`s where you`re looking at...
GRACE: Of course it is.
OSHINS: ... as a defense counsel -- you got to assess this. It`s not normal, obviously, for a mother to kill her children. There are a number of mental defects obviously going on in her life.
GRACE: Jason! Jason!
OSHINS: Yes, Nancy?
GRACE: You`re a veteran attorney, and you`re telling me the best you`ve got is, It`s not normal? Yes, I know that. Go ahead, Sanchez. Give me something.
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, you were right about one thing before, Nancy. It`s not a money problem. It is a mental problem. And this woman has a history of mental problems. Even her own mother said she was suffering from severe depression. She had been seeing a counselor, a family counselor. They were seeing crisis counselors because of previous incidents. This case is so bizarre and so crazy, the only conclusion you can come to is that woman is crazy.
OSHINS: Absolutely.
SANCHEZ: And if you look at that photograph of her, she`s literally frothing at the mouth. So there is no other conclusion you can derive from this, Nancy. Let`s face it.
GRACE: Yes, I don`t -- I don`t see literally frothing at the mouth. I see her facing the reality of an arrest for what she has done. Here she is in less than 48 hours later in that shot of her in the courtroom. There you go. She is completely calm, and she is away from what she believes is the camera. She does not know she`s got a camera pointed on her right now. So all this display is gone. Cops find her just sitting there casually in her house robe.
Everyone, if you`re just joining us, 13-year-old Beau, 16-year-old Calyx, brother and sister, the sister sitting at her computer in her bedroom, doing her homework, the brother being picked up from soccer practice, both gunned down. And who is the shooter? It`s Mommy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say she shot her 13-year-old son, Beau, twice as he waited in the front seat of her car to go to soccer practice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t imagine what would ever drive somebody to do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then she shot her 16-year-old daughter, Calyx, as she sat at her computer doing homework.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just sad that his mom did this to him and his sister because he didn`t deserve it. He was the sweetest kid ever!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives say Julie Schenecker admitted to shooting her two kids, 16-year-old Calyx and 13-year-old Beau, for being mouthy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tampa community brought to its knees by this story.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t imagine what would ever drive somebody to do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, Miss, you are obviously going to be held in jail without bond.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... prosecutors in bringing two counts. This is going to be a double murder case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Beau`s body found in an SUV in the garage, Calyx in an upstairs bedroom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It hits home. It really, really does because, you know, you have kids. And I mean, I couldn`t even imagine what was going through her head, what`s going through anybody`s head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just need to show respect and show that I really did care about Beau.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it`s just sad that his mom did this to him and his sister because he didn`t deserve it. He was the sweetest kid ever!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Matt McClain, news anchor, WFLA 970 AM, Matt McClain joining us out of Tampa. Thank you for being with us. What do you know about the case, Matt?
MATT MCCLAIN, WFLA 970 AM (via telephone): ... as you heard Erica talking about it just a few moments ago from our...
GRACE: OK. I think I`ve lost Matt. Liz, let me know when you get him back.
Erica Pitzi, I want to find out about these two teens, the 16-year-old and the 13-year-old. What do you know?
PITZI: We know that Calyx, the 16-year-old, was a model student. The principal could not say enough good things today when our education reporter, Isabel Mascarenez (ph), was there. He just -- you know, everybody says that she was a wonderful girl. She was so sweet. She was a track and field star. You know, we`re talking about, you know, little, athletic -- young athletic kids that did so well. We talked to Beau, the 13-year-old son, his soccer coach tonight, who said that he was just a great kid. He was very affable and very coachable. He said that he loved and was very devoted to the game of soccer. So these kids are both model students and great athletes and just seemed very happy, as well.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Michelle in New Hampshire. Hi, Michelle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thanks for taking my call. This is so sickening. Please tell me they have the death penalty!
GRACE: Yes, they do, Michelle. And I happen to have the aggravating factors for the Florida death penalty right here in my hand. This qualifies on many, many levels, including premeditation, buying the gun ahead of time, taking it with her to go pick up her son for soccer practice. Also, if you have more than one body, it`s mass murder. Qualifies for that, as well. Also, almost caught under subsection 11, but the child has to be 12. One of these children was 13.
But what`s disturbing me now is already -- when I first heard about this case over the weekend, I literally felt nauseous, not thinking about the mom but thinking about the children. Now, to you, Jean Casarez. Isn`t it true that the daughter had been being -- had been slapped several times by the mother recently, slapped in the face?
Now, the dad -- for many of you calling in, I know your question is, Where`s Daddy? He is in Qatar. He is a very high-ranking member of the military, the Army, as I recall. He`s been in Army intelligence over the years. These two met overseas when he was in intelligence. She was an interpreter, as I recall. So they`re both highly educated, highly functioning adults. In no way has either of them exhibited any degree of insanity whatsoever.
That said, we do know the husband has been away for a long time. We know that the family has followed him all around the world to be with him, if he serves in the military, and that he was away in Qatar at the time of this incident.
All that said, Jean, didn`t the mom slap the child, the girl, repeatedly in the face recently?
CASAREZ: Very recently, November, 2010. And this is according to the Tampa Police Department -- allegations of domestic abuse. The daughter and her mother, they were driving in the car to the supermarket. And the daughter went in the market, got her sack, came into the car. And the mother started to look at the sack, and the daughter said, Don`t look in my grocery sack. And the mother then started to slap her, according to police, with an open hand 30 seconds onto (ph) her little daughter, her 16- year-old little daughter`s face.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not enter a plea. Instead, the judge sent her back to a mental health facility to complete a psychiatric evaluation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s definitely going to be a mental defense.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) very sick. You know, sometimes people get sick in their bodies (INAUDIBLE) kind of get sick in the mind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When Julie Schenecker was found, in fact, by Tampa police, they say she was covered in blood from head to toe.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just the unthinkability that somebody could do this to their own children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She shot her 13-year-old son, Beau, twice as he waited in the front seat of the car to go to soccer practice. Then she shot her 16-year-old daughter, Calyx, as she sat at her computer doing homework.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Insanity in general is a difficult row to hoe. But certainly, in a case like this, with facts like this, it has to be a consideration.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: When I heard this this weekend -- for those of you just joining us -- I literally got nauseous thinking of a mother shooting a 16- year-old girl, sitting at her computer, doing her homework. You know how many parents would fall on their knees and thank God their 16-year-old was sitting there, doing their homework without them being forced to? And this is after she guns down her 13-year-old child, the boy in the car?
After I read that this weekend, I just looked at my twins. I don`t understand it. But I know this much. While I don`t understand that, I do understand the law. That I know. And I know when you buy the gun days ahead and you load that gun and you carry that gun concealed with you in your car to go pick up your victim, and while you have them defenseless in the passenger seat and you shoot them in the head multiple times, then you walk to your second victim and shoot them in the back of the head, then while they are down, you shoot them in the face, which is what she did to her 16-year-old daughter, then you get the death penalty. That`s what I know.
Out to Erica Pitzi with WTSP. Erica, are those facts that I just stated correct? Have I missed anything other than the mom was depressed? I mean, half of America is depressed.
PITZI: Yes. And I think there was also some tension between this mother and her 16-year-old daughter, maybe like many parents with their teenage kids. But you know, you go back to November, that incident you were talking about earlier -- we got this report from the Department of Children and Families today, along with the report from the Tampa police, talking about how this -- you know, Julie Schenecker had an issue where she backhanded, said, and admitted to, three times to her daughter Calyx when they were having an issue. And in some of those reports, even the dad had talked about how he had to be a mediator between his daughter and his wife. But this week, he wasn`t around.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tampa police say their own mother, 50-year-old Julie Schenecker, shot and killed them, Beau`s body found in an SUV in the garage, Calyx in an upstairs bedroom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now Julie Schenecker to the podium, please?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: An unthinkable crime in Tampa.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Tampa mother charged with killing her 16-year- old daughter, Calyx, and 13-year-old son, Beau, shooting each with a handgun she had purchased just days before.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Officers found Julie Schenecker sitting on her back porch covered in her children`s blood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Due to the nature of your charges and the strength to the case against you at this point, miss, you will obviously going to be held on jail without bond.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Not shaking this time but clearly weeping and clutching a tissue, 50-year-old Julie Schenecker finally made her first appearance in Hillsborough County court.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: She told police she shot them because she was tired of them mouthing off, talking back.
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Prosecutors are bringing two counts. This is going to be a double murder case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just unthinkability that somebody could do this to their own children. You feel for the children. As a mother, I just -- it just breaks my heart. I can`t imagine what would ever drive somebody to do that. And so I think it`s just incredible sense of loss I have for those kids at such a young age, and having kids of my own.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls. For those of you just joining us, her husband away in Qatar, highly, highly ranked in the U.S. Army military. They met overseas. She as an interpreter, both of them highly educated, highly functioning.
Cops come to the home. They find her 13-year-old boy dead in the family mini-van, shot multiple times in the face and head. Her own daughter, 16 years old, found shot in the head and then in the face as she was sitting at her computer in her own bedroom, doing her homework.
Straight out to Matt McClain joining us from WFLA 970AM. He is there joining us at home.
Matt McClain, weigh in.
MATT MCCLAIN, NEWS ANCHOR, WFLA 970AM: Yes. Nancy, I tell you, one of the things that I know Erica has not mentioned, and I think it bears notice and that is Colonel Schenecker`s office putting a statement out a short time ago and it reads in part that he has returned from deployment and is grieving to family and friends and he is devoted first and foremost to honoring the lives and memory of his beautiful children, Calyx and Beau.
But what you don`t hear in this particular statement or see in this statement is that his wife is never mentioned at all. And I think that`s really bears -- a really kind of bringing attention to that. Because you would think that -- in all of his shock, that he would actually also mention his wife but there is not one word mentioned about her at all.
It`s strictly for the children. And I`ve got to say, as the father of a 2-year-old myself, it`s very difficult to wrap my own personal mind around exactly what has taken place and the fact that she has confessed and admitted it to police this entire time, that she did it. And she did it because they were mouthy. It`s hard to comprehend.
GRACE: Explain to me what you know, Matt McClain, about them being, quote, "mouthy."
MCCLAIN: Well, it`s just simply that. That she was saying that these children were misbehaving, that they were kind of acting out. But it`s not really anything that would seem to be out of the normal. DCF a few months ago indicating the same thing.
GRACE: Hold on. Hold on. Hold on, Matt, Matt, Matt. You know when I started just cutting my teeth on prosecuting, the elected DA sent me to juvenile where I prosecuted juvenile crimes for a while until I went on to adult felony prosecutions.
To me, acting out is like you steal a car, you do a car jack, you shoplift. That`s acting out. From what I understand shall the girl, the 16-year-old sitting at her computer doing her homework on her own volition, and the boy was picked up from soccer practice.
Tell me, where is the bad part?
MCCLAIN: Well, you do raise a good point with that. And I will give you that for sure. But I guess what really -- what I was alluding to was the past couple of months indicating that there may have been some misbehavior from the children but what would really seem to be a more of an -- obviously an overreaction by the mother herself in sort of one case literally hitting the girl for some 30 seconds until, from what we understand, blood apparently coming from her mouth as well.
Again, it`s just one of those things that is very difficult to wrap the mind around. I`ve got to tell you that this is one in 13 years of being in the news media that I have not quite ever seen a mother and teenage children having an issue such as this. I`ve never quite ever seen it before.
GRACE: To CW Jensen, former Portland Police captain. Weigh in, CW.
CW JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Nancy, I have done hundreds of death investigations. I have arrested many, many people for murder. This case also stuns me.
I realize that people initially say, oh, she`s got to be crazy, because they can`t wrap their heads around this horrible kind of crime. But as far as I am concerned, she bought that gun, she planned this. She didn`t have the guts to deal with her own children. And she did the most despicable act that I have ever seen.
GRACE: And I`ve got to tell you something, I agree with you, Jensen.
To Dr. Janet Taylor, not only a psychiatrist, but MD as well.
Dr. Taylor, motherhood is not easy. It`s also not easy when you`re alone a lot, doing it all on your own. Her husband traveled. I know how that is. My husband travels all the time.
And when you`re there alone and you`re doing it all, and you`re with one and the other one runs that way, or they won`t behave or they this and they that, it`s a lot to deal with but I just can`t buy in to everybody saying oh, she`s got to be crazy.
That`s not true. That is not true.
DR. JANET TAYLOR, MD, MPH, PSYCHIATRIST, : Well, first of all, I think we have to start using the word mentally ill and not just crazy because the stigma that we use against people with mental illness, which I think she had, I do think we have to look at her history of depression and probably psychosis, is what stops people from getting treatment .
And mentally ill people can live in houses with pools and mentally ill people can buy guns but most mothers do not just kill their children because they were mouthy, especially mothers of teenagers. Clearly, she has some major underlying psychological problems.
GRACE: Really? You know what, Dr. Janet Taylor, I prosecuted murders every single day for 10 years. Out of that span, about three of the perps were insane. Now, mentally ill, I don`t know what you mean by that. But depression does not rise to an excuse under the law.
TAYLOR: Well, it may not rise to an excuse under the law but certainly there are people who are depressed and psychotic and unfortunately do crimes like this that we have to acknowledge so they can get treatment and not just feel like people are acting crazy so they can have a defense. This woman has a mental illness.
GRACE: Why do you say that?
TAYLOR: She has a history of being depressed.
GRACE: No. No, no, wait, stop, right there.
TAYLOR: Yes.
GRACE: Are you equating depression with mental illness?
TAYLOR: Depression -- a major depression is mental illness.
GRACE: OK.
TAYLOR: We`re not talking about --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: So if depression is mental illness, that`s one thing but to you, Jason Oshins and Alex Sanchez, depression under the law is not a defense.
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, and Nancy, it`s not. But what -- you know rising to the level of being able to get off in some way by being criminally insane, that`s not what we`re talking about, at least for the moment. That`s at some point through the defense analysis and the appointment of doctors, we might figure that out.
But Dr. Taylor is right on target. This is mental illness.
GRACE: Alex Sanchez, let me just try to get a yes or no out of you, an honest yes or no. OK? Under the law, depression does not rise to insanity?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, but it is a mitigating -- it`s a --
GRACE: No, no, no, I asked you for yes or no.
SANCHEZ: No, it does not.
GRACE: Because under the law, the only defense is going to be insanity.
SANCHEZ: All right. But it is a mitigating factor. And you know -- before you mentioned --
GRACE: No. That`s for a jury to decide, not for you to try.
SANCHEZ: Yes, but you know you mentioned all the aggravating factors before which would justify giving the death penalty. But you didn`t mention any of the mitigating factors, like the fact that she`s never been arrested before. A the family -- and those kids appear to be healthy, nice, well-balanced kids, which proves that she was probably a good mother.
GRACE: Put Sanchez up.
SANCHEZ: She`s cracked up. There is no question about that, Nancy. And I think you need to acknowledge that.
GRACE: Sanchez, they are not nice, well-behaved, well-nourished children. They are dead. All right?
SANCHEZ: Yes, but before, leading up to this.
GRACE: No. That doesn`t matter. It doesn`t matter how they were before.
SANCHEZ: No, but it --
GRACE: What matters is what happens in that home.
SANCHEZ: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: It indicates that she snapped, let`s face it, Nancy.
GRACE: No. There is no such defense as snapped.
I want to go to Marc Klaas, president and founder of KlaasKids Foundation. What do you think, Marc?
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: The lawyers are trying to muddle the issue. Let`s remember who the victims are here. It`s not this mother who purchased a gun, separated her children so she could get surprise on both of them, shot multiple bullets into their heads and then did exactly the same thing to her daughter.
The victims here are the children and that poor man in Central Command who`s had his whole life torn asunder by this vicious, horrible act by this vicious, horrible woman.
GRACE: And to Dr. Jennifer Shu, joining us out of Atlanta.
Dr. Shu, if the first bullet only hit the boy, say, in the chest or the arm, isn`t it true that he would have sat there strapped in his seatbelt while he watched his mother kill him?
DR. JENNIFER SHU, PEDIATRICIAN, EDITOR OF "BABY AD CHILD HEALTH": That`s certainly possible, Nancy. And the fact that if it was in his head, there is much more potential for damage to be done. It also depends on where it is in the chest, so if it was right in his heart or in his lungs, then he might have died really quickly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When Julie Schenecker was found in fact by Tampa police, they say she was covered in blood from head to toe. Julie Schenecker told Tampa police that the kids mouthed off to her and that they were mouthy and they talked back to her.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Due to the nature of your charges and the strength of the case against you at this point, miss, you will obviously going to be held in jail without bond. I assume in the future the defense will request appointment of doctors. That`s something that will be taking place after they have filed the appropriate motions. You are excused.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This time, but clearly, weeping and clutching a tissue, 50-year-old Julie Schenecker finally made her first appearance in Hillsboro County court. For two days, she had been hospitalized in intensive care for a pre-existing medical condition, a condition say jail officials that apparently left her shaking and contorted, as they escorted her from the Tampa Police Department.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. For those of you just joining us. A mom found sitting on her back porch in her house robe, calmly explaining to the police how she murdered her 16-year-old girl and 13-year-old little boy because they were "mouthy".
We are taking your calls, Rhonda in Florida. Hi, Rhonda.
RHONDA, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call. It is so good to have you back again. You have no idea.
GRACE: Thank you. And it`s good to be back, praise the lord.
RHONDA: I know.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
RHONDA: I have a two-part question.
GRACE: OK.
RHONDA: The first question is, did anyone else in the family know that she was on drugs and her little secret that could help her?
GRACE: You know -- you know what, I don`t know. But I`m going to find out right now. But I know this. I know -- isn`t this correct, Erica Pitzi, joining us from WTSP there outside the family home -- that not long ago, in addition to beating her little girl in the face until she bled, she was also arrested for erratic driving.
I believe she ran into something and was under suspicion of driving while impaired but they let her out of the hospital before cops could get there?
ERICA PITZI, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE WTSP, OUTSIDE HOME WHERE TEENS` BODIES FOUND: Yes, that`s exactly right, Nancy. In fact the officer who had cited her, she had -- what she had done is she had hit a trailer and there was some lawnmower equipment on there. So she had done some damage so she was cited, she had to pay a fine.
And the officer on the scene who had cited her said that he thought that she was on drugs. By the time that they could get to the hospital to test her blood, she had already checked out.
GRACE: Everyone, we are now taking you to our next case.
In a stunning twist, a patron at a local bar and restaurant comes out to see a beautiful young girl literally kicking and screaming forced into a silver Chrysler mini-van. Can you help us find her? Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer, I`m going in there right now. This girl is being kidnapped right now.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Whose getting kidnapped?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: What?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is in the back. It`s a gray van. Four men in the van and they ran over her. I`m in the neighborhood looking for the van. I`m not waiting.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because they`re kidnapping that girl. They run over her. They run over her and pick her up. Understand? And drag her back in the vehicle.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: So they hit her? They ran over her in the pickup?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She got out of the vehicle. She got out of the vehicle. It`s like an Oldsmobile van or one of those cars. It`s a sliding door. Gray. It might be a Chrysler, a Chrysler, gray. It`s a Chrysler.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: And it has a sliding door on the side?
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Sliding door on the right side, because she came out of the vehicle.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking are calls. Straight out to Kevin Rincon, WOKV Radio joining us out of Jacksonville. This young girl seen literally forced kicking and screaming off the street there in public into a silver Chrysler mini-van.
Kevin Rincon, what more can you tell me?
KEVIN RINCON, REPORTER, WOKV, NEWS/TALK RADIO: Well, actually, Nancy, Michelle told her sister before that that she was going to go see a guy but was nervous about the meeting. That was about 15 minutes before that incident where the witness was going down following the van.
He was sitting at a lounge, like you said earlier, and he witnessed the woman being dragged into a mini-van screaming and fighting. The man followed the van but eventually lost sight of it. After that police call, he actually had evidence on him that wasn`t even processed for a couple of days later.
GRACE: You`re kidding me. With me is Kevin Rincon, WOKV Radio, out of Jacksonville.
What do you mean? The witness had evidence that the cops waited days to process? What?
RINCON: He had a shoe and a rope when he went back to the parking lot where she was taken. And he had that shoe and a rope and he showed it to police and police didn`t process it. In fact he took it with him and later on, it took several days, actually. The timeline on this is rather strange.
She went missing on the 10th, 21 days ago, 18 days since she was reported -- she was reported missing by her sister on the 13th. It was 12 days ago now that a detective even took the case. And then once the detective took the case, it was on the 25th that an eyewitness noticed who that woman was from a flyer that the family had put out.
And then, he went to police and said, hey, look, I have the shoe and the rope. And then that`s when police were, in fact, able to confirm that the shoe was Michelle McCoy`s, the woman that`s missing.
GRACE: To Alexis Weed, on the story.
Alexis, what more can you tell me about the events surrounding her actual disappearance?
ALEXIS WEED, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, she told her sister that she was going to meet an acquaintance. She didn`t give a lot of information about this acquaintance other than to say his name was maybe KT. The sister followed up. She said please call me after I get into this vehicle, call me, follow-up, make sure I`m OK. The sister did that. She called, she texted, no answer.
GRACE: So was this someone that she knew already?
WEED: It was an acquaintance as we understand but not somebody that she knew all that well.
GRACE: I wonder why she was going to meet them.
With me right now is Dwain Senterfit, director of Investigations and Homeland Security, Jacksonville Sheriff`s Office.
Sir, thank you for being with us. What more can you tell me about this case?
DWAIN SENTERFIT, DIR. OF INVESTIGATIONS & HOMELAND SECURITY, JACKSONVILLE SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, Nancy, as they alluded to there, there`s a timeline of events that happened here. And if you`d like me to go through that with you or --
GRACE: Yes, do. Do.
SENTERFIT: On the 10th of this month which was a Monday was when that call went out that you started the show with, with the gentleman that saw this person being dragged into a van at this location he was at.
The officers that responded there wrote a report, they talked with this person. They did a canvass of the area, sent messages out to other officers to be on the look out. They attempted to try to get our air unit up to look but the weather was bad and it was not able to fly. And in fact even considered canines but with a moving vehicle that wasn`t going to work.
As far as the -- then on the 13th, three days later, then the family called to report this young lady was missing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer, this (EXPLETIVE DELETED), this is real. This is (EXPLETIVE DELETED) real.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. Are you going north of south on Lem Turner?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re turning. They`re turning right now on, they`re turning on, I`m going to tell you --
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: On where?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Brown -- Broom Street.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: On Broom Street. Which way, left or right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I`m going left right now. I think that`s them right there passing 1st Street and they`re going to 2nd Street. Yes, that`s them, officer. I`m behind them.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: With us right now, Michelle McCoy`s cousin, India, is joining us out of Jacksonville.
India, thank you so much for being with us. What are police telling you about her disappearance?
INDIA, COUSIN OF ABDUCTED GIRL, MICHELLE MCCOY: As of now we -- once again, hi, how are you? Thank you for having me on your show.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am.
INDIA: As of right now, they`re not really -- they`ve exhausted all of their leads. There`s really not too much that they can tell us.
GRACE: Well, who was she going to meet that night, India?
INDIA: From my understanding, it was an acquaintance. We -- I don`t know who it is. I`ve never met him before.
GRACE: Is it someone named KT?
INDIA: I heard that, but I`m not sure if it is him. I heard that that was the name of the guy that she left with.
GRACE: Well, you know, it seems to me that knowing a name, KT, and knowing the vehicle, a silver minivan, possibly Chrysler with a sliding right door, there should be some leads.
With me is McCoy`s cousin, India.
Tip line 866-845-8477. We will stay on the case.
Let`s stop and remember Army Private 1st Class Dillon Jutras, 20, Fairfax, Virginia, killed Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation Medal. Buried at Arlington.
Loves soccer, running marathons, bowling, `80s music, restoring his `86 Dodge Ram. Remembered for putting family first. His nephew named in his honor. Leaves behind parents, Julia and Pierre, an Army lieutenant colonel. Sister Heather, brothers Dustin and Hunter.
Dillon Jutras, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you. And a special good night by Michigan and Georgia friends, Eileen, Sharon and Sherry.
Aren`t they beautiful?
And happy birthday to our number one friend, Linda in Menlo (ph). This is her childhood photo that she loves so much. Linda loves the outdoors, reading, gardening. The sound of the wind in the trees. Animals. Her favorite thing, her adopted cat, Ben.
Happy birthday, Linda, from Menlo.
And happy birthday to little California friend Xavier. Our viewers helped him get a life-saving kidney transplant. The little donor who gave Xavier the gift of life, Samuel McGrove.
Happy birthday, Xavier.
See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
END
