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Nancy Grace
Body of Abducted 4-Year-Old Found in Canal
Aired February 01, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, California. A 4- year-old boy literally ripped from the arms of his grandmother, snatched in broad daylight. The perp had tried to get the little boy from home and from school. Grainy surveillance video emerges of the suspect stocking up on beer at the local Chevron just before the kidnap. After pulling up car after car after car from a local canal, investigators locate the perp`s silver Toyota deep in the murky waters. They pull it up empty. No sign of the perp or the little boy.
Bombshell tonight. The search for 4-year-old Juliani comes to an end, a boy`s body discovered 30 miles downstream, clothing, physical description a direct match to Juliani. But in a twist tonight, no suspect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We received a call from the water authority indicating that they had found the body of a child in the canal.
TABITHA CARDENAS, MOTHER: I`m praying that he`s still alive!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We recovered the body of a small child whose physical description and clothing description matches that of our kidnapping victim.
CARDENAS: (INAUDIBLE) I just want him back!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s very difficult to find the body of a child and have to remove that child from the canal.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that Jose might have dumped his car, and somebody`s helping him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to continue to treat this as a homicide investigation, and he is a suspect and is wanted by authorities.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. A 4-year-old little boy literally ripped from his grandmother`s arms, snatched in broad daylight. After pulling up car after car from the local canal, investigators locate the perp`s silver Toyota deep in the murky waters. They pull it up empty. But in the last four hours, the search for 4-year-old Juliani comes to an end, a boy`s body discovered 30 miles downstream, a direct match to Juliani. But in a twist tonight, no suspect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We lost the life of a little boy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your little boy was not in that car.
CARDENAS: I`m so thankful. I just thank God, you know, that my son wasn`t in there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We recovered the body of a small child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The physical description and the clothing match little Juliani.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The water authority was out doing their normal operations when they saw the body of a child floating in the water.
CARDENAS: That farm worker didn`t call as soon as he seen that car go in. You know, maybe -- if my son is in there, maybe they could have saved him!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We wanted to find little Juliani alive. That was our goal, was to bring him home. As the days progressed, as the investigation progressed, we just knew that that wasn`t going to be possible. Everything led us to that canal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At about 7:30 this morning, we received a call from the water authority indicating that they had found the body of a child in the canal. Our teams were notified and responded to an area near the Delta Mendota canal, where McCabe Road crosses the canal just west of interstate 5 near Santonella (ph). We recovered the body of a small child whose physical description and clothing description matches that of our kidnapping victim.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. The boy`s body -- we`re waiting for an absolute match through DNA. But we believe the boy`s body has been found, this 4-year-old child snatched from his grandmother`s arms at their home by this perpetrator. He had tried to get the boy before, at school and at home. Well, he finally did it. The silver Toyota found at the bottom of a canal, the boy found, the perpetrator still missing.
We are taking your calls. Straight out to Debra Mark, anchor with KABC 790, joining us out of LA. Debra, what can you tell us?
DEBRA MARK, TALKRADIO 790 KABC: Well, Nancy, sad news to report. At 7:30 this morning, the water authority did contact the sheriff`s department and said that they`d found the body of a little boy floating in the canal. And we`ve heard it will take about two to three weeks for DNA to positively identify the body, but officials are saying that the physical description and the clothing match that of little Juliani.
GRACE: Straight out to Andria Borba, reporter with KTXL joining us tonight live tonight at city hall, Patterson, California. Andria, thank you for being with us. What`s disturbing to me, number one, we found the little boy. Number two, this guy had tried to take the child before. Why couldn`t he be stopped? Now the little boy is dead. What happened?
ANDRIA BORBA, KTXL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, this all started about two weeks ago right now, right at this hour, when Juliani was ripped from his grandmother`s arms here in Patterson. He apparently tried -- the suspect in this case, Jose Esteban Rodriguez -- had tried to kidnap the little boy earlier at his Head Start program, managed to get away in that case. About an hour before the abduction, he was seen on surveillance video buying beer, and then eventually ripping Juliani out of his grandmother`s arms.
In the minutes following the abduction, a farm worker spotted that car going into the Delta Mendota canal just north of Patterson. That was where investigators knew things had gone horribly wrong because the next day, that farm worker came forward, and that`s when they started searching the canal. And that`s when...
GRACE: Hold on!
BORBA: ... hope eventually got very, very...
GRACE: Hold on, Andria! Andria, no offense to you, OK? But that`s not when things went horribly wrong. Things went horribly wrong when the perpetrator tried to kidnap the boy from a public Head Start program, and he was not arrested and put behind bars, like he should have been. That`s when things started going horribly wrong.
What`s the problem? What is it? Is it because he`s Hispanic nobody cared? What? Is that it? You try to go get my children out of play school, you`re going to be under the jail! So this guy tries to get the child out of the Head Start program, and he`s just walking around free? What`s he doing in the Chevron buying beer? He needs to be in jail. This never would have happened, Andria! Can you tell me the answer to that?
BORBA: You know, the question is why that does not get reported to police here in Patterson sooner. The police department here in Patterson, a subsidiary of Stanislaus County sheriff`s department. That`s the question. Why did it not get reported sooner, Nancy? And you`re absolutely right, he should not have been able to snatch the boy from his grandmother`s arms. He should have been stopped at the pre-school. But it didn`t happen. He was caught on surveillance video later, but within that hour, he kidnapped Juliani. So we don`t know exactly where the system broke down, Nancy.
GRACE: Well, this is what I know. Joining me there at the courthouse, Patterson, California, from KTXL, Andria Borba, reporting this child`s body has been found, this after multiple kidnap attempts by the same perpetrator tonight. Tonight, we`ve got the little boy`s drowned body. But the perpetrator still at large.
Jean Casarez, joining us from New York. Jean, what more can you tell me?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, Nancy, this little body that was found floating this morning around 7:30, and so the water authority employee saw it, is about 31 miles away from the initial crime scene. And that is where the car went to the canal. This is 117-mile-long canal, so that little body had traveled 31 miles. And as far as the school, Nancy, we don`t know what the school knew or didn`t know because little Juliani called Jose Rodriguez his father.
GRACE: OK, Jean, you`re not only a legal correspondent, you are an attorney, as well. When you are not the custodial parent and you`re not on that list to picked up, you don`t get to pick them up! I don`t care what they call you. They could call you Mommy. Don`t care! If you`re not the authorized person to pick that child up, that is kidnap.
CASAREZ: But how do you know...
GRACE: They know that!
CASAREZ: ... he wasn`t taken off that list? They had just broken up in August. Tabitha is pregnant with his child. Tabitha and he were in correspondence. The little boy called him Daddy. How do we know that he hadn`t picked him up before?
GRACE: This is how I know, Jean. Because they wouldn`t let him take the child! That`s how I know. The Head Start program would not let him take the child...
CASAREZ: The child wasn`t in school...
GRACE: ... because they knew...
CASAREZ: The child wasn`t in school that day. He was sick. He wasn`t there.
GRACE: Because they knew he wasn`t supposed to pick up the child. That`s why they didn`t let him have him.
Straight back to you, Andria Borba. What can you tell me ant the circumstances surrounding the Head Start kidnap attempt? OK, I`ve lost Andria. Let`s try Debra Mark with KABC.e
MARK: Well, that day that Jose went to the child`s school, the child wasn`t there. He was at his grandmother`s house and he was sick that day. So who knows what would have happened if he actually was at school that day. It`s a very good question.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Carla in Virginia. Hi, Carla.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you tonight?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is concerning this car. If the gentleman saw the car go in and he thought he saw people in the car, my question is, is when they pulled the car out, was the car still intact, the doors shut, the windows up? Because if the body was outside of the car, did he change his mind and try to get little Juliani out of the, car and possibly he could couldn`t save him? I mean, if this body was down 30 miles, there`s a chance that this gentleman is down 30 miles, too, and they just haven`t found him yet. But I`m just wondering, when the pulled the car out, what was the condition of the car?
GRACE: That`s a very good question. I know that the windows were down. But Let`s check those facts again. Jean Casarez, what do we know about the condition of the car?
CASAREZ: It was in pretty bad shape. And the windows were down, at least two of the windows. Here`s my question. We don`t have the answer. Were the windows down when that car was driven into the canal by who we believe Jose Rodriguez, or were they up and just broken off because of the interaction with all the other vehicles? We don`t know the answer to that.
GRACE: Joining me tonight from Patterson, California, there at city hall, Sheriff Adam Christianson. He is with the Stanislaus County sheriff`s office. He is the sheriff. Sheriff, thank you for being with us.
SHERIFF ADAM CHRISTIANSON, STANISLAUS COUNTY: Thank you, Nancy, I appreciate being here.
GRACE: I know you guys have tried everything, everything to try to apprehend the perp with the child. Tell me how the child`s body was found this morning.
CHRISTIANSON: Well, the water authority contacted us about 7:30 this morning Pacific Standard Time, and they reported a child`s body in the canal. And that`s when we responded and found the boy deceased in the canal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our teams have worked tirelessly to bring little Juliani home alive.
CARDENAS: Please, I need him home!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything led us to that canal, and we knew that it would be a tragic result. And it certainly has been.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities say a child`s body has been found in the canal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a canal near Patterson in northern California.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We recovered the body of a small child whose physical description and clothing description matches that of our kidnapping victim.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a homicide investigation. It`s an ongoing investigation. We have issued the warrant for the arrest for Jose Rodriguez. We will continue this investigation until we find Jose Rodriguez. But right now, again, we want to make sure that we do everything as a community to support Tabitha.
CARDENAS: He`s my little angel! Why did he have to take my son with him? That was wrong!
I think that Jose might have dumped his car, and somebody`s helping him. He probably just dumped his car and somebody picked him up. But I`m thinking, who would do that, you know? I`m thinking it must have been a family member because no -- I mean, if you`re just somebody`s friend, why would you go to such great lengths to help them, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, we learned that the body of a little boy has been found 30 miles away from where we believe the car was driven into a canal. So far, we do not have a positive ID. However, it does match the description of little Juliani. In a bizarre twist, no suspect has turned up.
Joining me there, there in Patterson, California, at city hall, Andria Borba. She is joining us from KTXL. Andria, tell me about the discovery of the body and how the mom found out what had happened.
BORBA: Well, the body was discovered around 7:30 this morning by a worker with the Delta Mendota water authority down near Santonella, California. It`s about 30 miles south of here in Patterson. An FBI liaison has been with Tabitha Cardenas since little Juliani has been missing. She posted on her FaceBook wall around 11:00 this morning that she had just the worst news. In fact, a body had been found. It was her son, and that she hopes Jose Rodriguez, our suspect in this case, rots in hell. And she`s so happy that he can`t get to their unborn child because, remember, she is pregnant with the suspect`s child, Nancy.
GRACE: Andria, I`m glad you brought that out because look at the predicament this mother is in, as Andria is pointing out. "I have the worst news in the world to tell you all. My son`s body has been found in the canal. No DNA is confirmed, but it`s his clothes and shoes and it`s a 4-year-old boy. So I want everyone to pray that Jose`s body is found so we can all know that he`s burning in hell and I don`t have to worry about him taking my unborn baby girl."
Andria Borba, what are authorities saying is the motive in this case?
BORBA: They haven`t really come up with the motive in this case yet, Nancy. Tabitha herself believes that Jose just snapped. He`d been known to dabble in drugs. He was known to be an alcoholic. You saw him on that surveillance video picking up beer about an before he kidnapped the little boy. Mind you, he had tried earlier in the day. But Tabitha thinks that Jose just snapped. And because there`s so little information about the suspect, the sheriff`s department here in Stanislaus County don`t know exactly what caused him to go this route in the first place.
GRACE: How hard has it been -- how difficult has it been for them to get the vehicle up out of the water?
BORBA: Let me tell you, it has been a process. Thirteen days ago, they started pulling cars out of the Delta Mendota canal. They pulled up 16 different cars, Nancy, 16 cars before they finally got the suspect`s vehicle. In fact, they left a 17th car sitting in the canal. It`s a popular place in this area to dump stolen vehicles. And that`s exactly where they found the suspect, Jose Rodriguez`s, Toyota Corolla, had been featured in all the Amber Alerts up and down the state of California and in the western United States.
GRACE: You know, Andria, you had mentioned earlier -- and we heard this also -- that it`s going to take up to three weeks to make a positive DNA ID on the body? I don`t understand that, Andria. I mean, you can get a DNA match in, like, three days.
BORBA: The sheriff says he`s taking his time. He wants to be absolutely sure. But it seems preposterous to you and I because, you know, we watch the shows like "CSI," "NCIS," where they get these DNA matches so quickly. But things take a longer time here in small towns to get things done...
GRACE: Well, you know, but...
BORBA: ... which they shouldn`t, but they do, as a matter of fact.
GRACE: ... Andria, a DNA match -- I mean, there are other types of DNA matches that don`t take three weeks. So what`s the family supposed to do, wait three more weeks before they have a funeral?
BORBA: I think what will happen in this case is Tabitha Cardenas will go down and identify the body. Hopefully, she`s going to find out that it is, in fact, Juliani. At that point, hopefully, they`ll release the body to the family.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After pulling up car after car from a local canal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say a child`s body has been found.
CARDENAS: He`s my little angel!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The water authority was out doing their normal operations and duties when they saw the body of a child floating in the water.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The physical description of the little boy found in the canal is that a 4-year-old Juliani Cardenas.
CARDENAS: Why did he have to take my son with him? That was wrong!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We knew that it would be a tragic result, and it certainly has been.
CARDENAS: Well, of course, since the windows were down, they have to keep searching the canal to see if any -- they are going to find any bodies. But I mean, also, you know, they shouldn`t take their -- their efforts off the...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking our calls live. For those of you just joining us, the search for 4-year-old Juliani Cardenas has ended. The little boy`s body has been positively found there along the canal, just 30 miles away from the car first entered the water. And what a story surrounds his disappearance. The perpetrator, the mom`s ex, tried repeated times to kidnap the boy, literally ending up snatching him from the grandmother`s arms there at the home. Then we find out the perp buying beer just before the kidnap, his car likely gone into the canal. And now we find the boy`s body.
And in a bizarre twist, no perpetrator. Tonight, where is Jose Esteban Rodriguez? Take a look at Rodriguez.
We`re taking your calls. But first to a special guest joining us, Patterson, California, there, live, at city hall, the elected sheriff, Sheriff Adam Christianson. His team managed to pull that car out of the canal and have been in charge of rescuing the child`s body.
Sheriff, what can you tell us about a three-week wait on the DNA?
CHRISTIANSON: Well, three weeks is about the normal turnaround time for the California Department of Justice to process DNA. It won`t have any effect at all on the family`s funeral arrangements, and we`re going to be working very closely with them to help them bring closure to this case.
GRACE: Sheriff -- Sheriff -- put the sheriff up, please. I still don`t see him. Sheriff, thank you for clearing that up because what this mom is going through, on top of being pregnant with the perpetrator`s child, and then if she had to wait a month before she could bury this child, I think it would really be too much on her, Sheriff. I really do.
CHRISTIANSON: That won`t happen. Nancy, that won`t happen. We`re doing everything we can to support the family in this time of need. And we understand that this is a very tragic case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A positive identification will be made through DNA and other procedures that we normally apply in these cases at our coroner`s division. DNA results takes several weeks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF ADAM CHRISTIANSON, STANISLAUS COUNTY, SHERIFF`S DEPT.: We`ve received a call from the water authority indicating that they had found the body of a child in the canal.
TABITHA CARDENAS, MOTHER OF 4-YR-OLD ABDUCTED TOT JUST FOUND FLOATING IN CANAL: I`m praying that he`s still alive.
CHRISTIANSON: We recovered the body of a small child whose physical description and clothing description matches that of our kidnapping victim.
CARDENAS: I don`t know -- I just want him back.
CHRISTIANSON: It`s very difficult to find the body of a child and have to remove the child from the canal.
CARDENAS: I think that Jose might have dumped his car and somebody`s helping him.
CHRISTIANSON: We`re going to continue to treat this as a homicide investigation. And he is a suspect and is wanted by authorities.
CARDENAS: He just knocked on the door. And I opened the door. I`m like, what are you doing here, you know? It`s 7:00 in the morning. My son`s asleep. You know I told him to get out of here. And then he just, like, put his head down and walked away. And he didn`t say nothing.
I believe he went to the school after I had taken off to work. He waited a little while before he went to the school. He came back to my house after I had left for work. And he made his way in the house and told my mom, oh, I just came to tell Juliani bye. And then my mom pushed him out of the house and he said, bye, papas and then he took off.
But then later that day, he came back and that`s when he took him.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls. Out to the lines, Christine in North Carolina. Hi, Christine.
CHRISTINE, CALLER NORTH CAROLINA: Hi, how are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
CHRISTINE: I just want to tell you that if I could meet somebody in person, it would be you.
GRACE: Thank you.
CHRISTINE: And my question is, how long have they been split up from each other? And would she let him see the child?
GRACE: That`s a very good question. What about it, Ellie Jostad?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Nancy, they`ve been broken up for about five or six months, and the mother, Tabitha, actually told us the reason they broke up is because he was violent towards her. She says that he beat her, he held her -- almost held hostage overnight. Wouldn`t let her leave the house. She says that`s when she called police, that`s when she told him to get out of her life.
GRACE: You know, just looking at the shots, Ellie, of this little boy. We had all hoped so much that he would be found alive somehow squirreled away. But that was not meant to be. It seems as if the violence just escalated and escalated into this.
And of course, Ellie, this isn`t our first failed murder-suicide attempt. Let`s take a look. There`s Julie Schenecker, accused of shooting her two children to death for being mouthy. We just discussed that last night. Last night, we discussed Schenecker`s case. Gunning down her 16- year-old girl, her 13-year-old boy. She planned to kill herself but that didn`t quite happen.
Andrea Yates killed all five of her children, claimed she was going to commit suicide. She didn`t.
Deanna Laney, rot mom, claimed God ordered her to kill her three sons and then herself. But somehow, she never made it to herself.
Then there`s Neil Entwistle, shot his wife and infant daughter to death. He didn`t manage to pull off of the suicide either.
Shaquan Duley killed her two toddler sons and rolled the car into a river with their bodies inside claiming she was going to commit suicide -- yes, she didn`t.
To Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist, body language expert.
Lillian, why did they all say they`re going to kill themselves but they end up just killing their children?
LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT, AUTHOR OF "TOXIC PEOPLE": It`s very peculiar. I mean, some of them do succeed. But some of them are just so filled with rage. And when you look at this mother, your heart just goes out to her when you see and hear her anguish.
And when -- the worst thing about this, Nancy, is the little boy called him papi. He loved his stepfather or the boyfriend. And to feel so betrayed. I mean, this is the worst possible thing that`s happened here. The betrayal, this innocent little boy feeling so betrayed here. And now dead.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. For those of you just joining us, the search for little Juliani has come to an end. His body has been found about 30 miles away in that same canal where the perpetrator`s vehicle was found. In a stunning twist, though, no perp.
A murder warrant has issued for Jose Esteban Rodriguez. The mother`s ex-boyfriend.
Unleashed the lawyers. Joining us tonight out of Miami, Hugo Rodriguez. Out of Atlanta, defense attorney Raymond Giudice.
Wherever he is, Ray Giudice, he better keep running. Because California is not afraid of the death penalty.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there`s a reason that the sheriffs have left the warrants open and haven`t shut them down or quashed them. There is maybe some evidence that he got out of the car in time, or swam out of the car, leaving the poor child to die and that he`s still on the run.
Nancy, I want to raise one quick thing going back to the daycare, many states place a burden -- a legal burden on daycare workers, teachers, medical professionals that if they see some evidence of child abuse or child endangerment, they are to report it.
Even though the child wasn`t handed over to him when he came to daycare, that was such a dangerous, unusual obligation, they may have had an obligation to report that to law enforcement.
GRACE: Well put, Ray Giudice.
What about the perp, Rodriguez?
HUGO RODRIGUEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY, FMR. FBI AGENT: Obviously all the evidence is focusing on him. If he`s found, they will strongly prosecute him. Again, we don`t know if he was in that car. We don`t know if he just pushed it in like some other parents have done to their children and some other people.
But they`re going to keep that warrant open and they`re going to gather as much evidence as they can so that they can successfully prosecute him if he`s located.
GRACE: And, in my mind, to Giudice and Rodriguez, he was so angry at the mother for rejecting him finally after years of violence. He took the one thing that she loved the very most. That baby boy.
RODRIGUEZ: That`s your motive.
(CROSSTALK)
GIUDICE: And let me --
RODRIGUEZ: That`s your motive.
GRACE: Now you tell me, the two of you, I`m sure you`re about to tune up second verse same as the first, he was insane. I can`t believe it took you 36 minutes to consider it.
Go ahead, Giudice.
GIUDICE: Nancy, I`m about to say exactly the opposite. The just- snapped defense is not going to work here. This is a pattern of behavior. It would be a very difficult defense, not impossible, because we still don`t have crystal clear evidence that he committed the homicide.
But on the kidnapping, there is no such thing as a just-snapped-and-I- kidnapped-somebody defense.
GRACE: What about it, Rodriguez?
RODRIGUEZ: I have to agree there. This isn`t -- this is planned out, it was premeditated. He thought this through. This isn`t a spur of the moment, I`m going to lock this child into the car.
GRACE: Well, all I can say --
RODRIGUEZ: Drive him into the --
GRACE: -- somebody call a doctor quick because these two must be sick. It`s the first time I have not heard them say insanity ever in the history of their appearances on the show.
Speaking of a doctor, to Dr. Robert Kaufmann, doctor of internal medicine joining us tonight.
Dr. Kaufmann, as always, thank you for being with us. Dr. Kaufmann, explain to me what they`ll have to go through to positively identify the body.
DR. ROBERT KAUFMANN, M.D., INTERNAL MEDICINE: Well, as they said, is DNA. But you would think about dental records. But the child being 4 years old may not have been to a dentist. So we wouldn`t have any dental records to compare it to.
But typically they`ll take different types of body samples and then -- and do a DNA analysis and then identify the body.
GRACE: And in your mind, Dr. Kaufmann, I know they`re saying three weeks. But would that be because of some backlog there? Because DNA does not take three weeks.
KAUFMANN: I`ve never heard it take three weeks. I would hope they put that to the first -- to the top of the list and get that done as soon as possible.
GRACE: Yes. You know that`s easy for us to say because we`re involved in this case, we care about this case. But there are other people out there waiting on DNA, too. So I don`t think they`d take to it very kindly for any case to be put in front of theirs.
Joining me right now, Pat Brown, criminal profiler, author of "The Profiler."
Pat Brown, weigh in.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "THE PROFILER": Well, Nancy, first of all, these people that kill their children and say they were going to commit suicide are just liars. They simply don`t want to commit suicide. They want their kids out of there and they want a lot of sympathy.
Then you have the kind of people who do intend to commit suicide with the person -- the child they`re getting rid of, but maybe they panic at the last minute. Which could have happened in this case. He could have gone into the river, into the canal. The child died and he was able to swim away. When the water hit him, he freaked out.
And the second part is he just did go to that canal with this child and he`s there.
GRACE: Marc Klaas, president and founder of KlaasKids Foundation. He`s joining us out of San Francisco tonight.
Marc, what do you believe?
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, first of all, regarding the DNA. I know that the California DNA lab is overtaxed and underfunded. So that might account for the time -- the time problem there.
I believe that, number one, the windows were down when he went in to the canal because they were tinted windows, yet the farm worker saw a man and a child in the car. I also believe that that farm worker should have acted more quickly than he did.
The possibility exists that if he had jumped into the canal immediately upon seeing that that he could have saved the child. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that they`re going to find Rodriguez`s rotting corpse somewhere in that canal in the very near future.
And I agree with you completely and totally, this was an act of pure vengeance driven by hate. And unfortunately, he got what he wanted and left the family in ruins.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIANSON: This is a homicide investigation. It`s an ongoing investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The suspect, Jose Esteban Rodriguez, his mom`s ex-boyfriend.
CHRISTIANSON: We have issued the warrant for the arrest of Jose Rodriguez.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He has not been found.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIANSON: We`ve lost the life of a little boy.
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Your little boy was not in that car.
CARDENAS: I`m so thankful. I just thank God, you know, that my son wasn`t in there.
CHRISTIANSON: We recovered the body of a small child.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A physical description and the clothing match little Juliani.
CHRISTIANSON: The water authority was out doing their normal operations when they saw the body of a child floating in the water.
CARDENAS: That farm worker didn`t call as soon as he seen that car go in. You know maybe if my son was in there, maybe they could have saved him.
CHRISTIANSON: We wanted to find little Juliani alive. That was our goal. Was to bring him home. Now as the days progress, as the investigation progressed, we just knew that that wasn`t going to be possible. Everything led us to that canal.
This investigation continues. This is a homicide investigation. It`s an ongoing investigation. We have issued a warrant for the arrest for Jose Rodriguez. We`re going to treat this case as a homicide and in the course and scope of that investigation, the issuance of a warrant is proper.
We will continue this investigation until we find Jose Rodriguez. But right now, again, we want to make sure that we do everything as a community to support Tabitha and Juliani`s grandmother.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls.
I want to go straight back out to Jean Casarez.
Jean Casarez, if this guy is still on the large, what are they doing to find him?
CASAREZ: Well, they believe he`s in the canal. And they believe the body will float up. But saying that, the arrest warrant has been issued. And I would assume that that picture right there is what they are showing on local news of anyone has seen them.
And, Nancy, California has the death penalty. And I can think of a number of aggravating factors that fits what this guy did.
GRACE: Such as?
CASAREZ: Such as, he`s a convicted felon. He was convicted of manslaughter. Number two, the little boy was under 12 years of age. Number two, he was in a familial position of custody, and custodial person to this little boy. And heinous, atrocious and cruel to drive a living, breathing little boy into a canal.
GRACE: Out to the lines, Patricia in Maryland. Hi, Patricia.
PATRICIA, CALLER FROM MARYLAND: Hello, Nancy. It`s an honor to speak with you. Your twins are as beautiful as their mom.
GRACE: Patricia, thank you. And thank you for calling in.
PATRICIA: I mean it sincerely. And I have not felt so passionate about one of your cases forever to call tonight. I kind of have a comment and a question.
GRACE: OK.
PATRICIA: I don`t think that anyone in the whole world deserves what this mother is going through. But there`s people like Marc Klaas, the family in Baltimore right now, people that raised their children correctly, did the best they could.
This man was an alcoholic, they said. They said he had drug issues. They said he was convicted of manslaughter and child abuse. I`m sorry, Friday when Jean was on for you, all of these people were calling in and saying the whole country is behind you, to the mom, Tabitha.
Well, I`m very sorry and no one deserves to go through this. But who has their 4-year-old son around a man that is a child abuser, manslaughter, alcoholic, drug user?
And along that line, my question is, my understanding is, he had been arrested either for child abuse or child predator. If that`s the case, how is he living with the 4-year-old in the first place? Not to mention, you were asking about him picking up at Headstart.
I thought these people weren`t allowed to be within so many miles of schools and so forth. We`ve got to look out for our children. Making them available to these people is the worst thing possible.
GRACE: You know what, she`s right, Debra Mark. How was he living with a 4-year-old little boy?
DEBRA MARK, ANCHOR, TALKRADIO 790 KABC: Well, first of all, he wasn`t living with the little boy up until -- five months ago is when Tabitha left Jose. But before that, he does have an extensive criminal history. But we were not able to see exactly when he was arrested for touching a child under the age of 14 inappropriately.
Yes, he was convicted of involuntary manslaughter. But again we were not able to get the details of that. So we have no idea when that happened. Maybe he was a juvenile.
GRACE: Straight back out to the lines. Let`s go to Patsy in Pennsylvania. Hi, Patsy.
PATSY, CALLER FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Nancy. I just love you.
My question is, was the driver`s seatbelt buckled? Because he may have unbuckled himself and saved himself. They ought to be able to tell some stuff by that.
GRACE: Good question.
To Jean Casarez, what do we know about the seatbelts?
CASAREZ: And asking Tabitha if he had a pattern of wearing seatbelts, and she said he did not. Seatbelts were in that car but he didn`t have a habit of putting them on.
GRACE: To Sheriff Adam Christianson, what do we know about the seatbelt, Sheriff?
CHRISTIANSON: At this point, Nancy, we don`t know anything. We`re still in the process of looking at the car and getting evidence from the vehicle. It`s unlikely, however, that we`re going to get anything from the car`s computer system which could potentially indicate whether or not seatbelts were used.
GRACE: To Marc Harrold, former officer, APD, attorney and author of "Observations of White Noise."
Marc, thank you for being with us. Mark, weigh in, what do we find to do this guy?
MARC HARROLD, FMR. OFFICER, ATLANTA PD, ATTORNEY; AUTHOR OF "OBSERVATIONS OF WHITE NOISE": Well, I think he`s in the canal. But the one thing is, this is a place -- the criminal element at least knew you dumped cars when they were stolen. So if he did have help, somebody may have led him there.
I`d want to know how familiar he was with this area. And look out to his people in his criminal past. People he may have served time with, brushed up against in a criminal setting, and see if someone is in the area that might have helped him out or at least told him where to dump that car.
GRACE: Ann in Arkansas. Hi, Ann. What`s your question?
ANN, CALLER FROM ARKANSAS: I want to know if he was a legal citizen of the United States.
GRACE: Good question.
To Debra Mark, KABC, what do we know, Debra?
MARK: We do not have information on that. That has not been revealed to us.
GRACE: Sheriff -- Sheriff Christianson, was he illegal?
CHRISTIANSON: No, Nancy. He`s a legal resident of the United States.
GRACE: Sheriff, I got to ask you something else. You know, we cover these cases all the time and I was prosecuting, I saw them. When you get home at night, Sheriff, how do you, or do you shake it off?
CHRISTIANSON: It`s difficult. It`s been a very difficult case for everybody. Myself, included. It`s been emotional. It`s been frustrating and I certainly lose plenty of sleep over cases like this.
GRACE: You`re seeing shots of 4-year-old Juliani Cardenas. The search for the boy has ended. His body has been found. The perpetrator still at large.
Tonight, our prayers for little Juliani.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: JVM, the host of headline`s "ISSUES" with Jane Velez-Mitchell, a "The New York Times" best selling author. Her new book, "Addict Nation: An Intervention for America." It takes on the issue of overconsumption, our culture. And it hits the bookstores today.
Jane, it`s so great to see you. Thank you for being with us.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES", AUTHOR OF "ADDICT NATION": Thank you for having me, Nancy.
GRACE: Hey, Jane, you just finished another "New York Times" bestseller. So what`s with this?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, this book is really an outgrowth of the fact that I`m a recovering alcoholic and after I had a few years of sobriety under my belt, I started looking around and seeing addicted behavior everywhere I turn. Our society is addicto-genic (ph). We do everything too much, we eat too much, we shop too much.
GRACE: Whoa, wait. Why are you showing -- let me just say, a chubby person shopping?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, this is part of our problem. Let`s face it, Nancy --
GRACE: What`s wrong with a hamburger? Don`t start with the vegan thing.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`ll leave that aside even though I am a vegan and healthy eating is crucial. Two-thirds of Americans are overweight or obese. Now that`s not just a lifestyle choice. That is food addiction plain and simple.
If you get on a plane and you`re smoking or drinking somebody would stop you. But if you get on a plane and you`re morbidly obese that`s perceived as a lifestyle choice. I call that enabling.
And what happens is that we in this culture are co-signing each other`s bad behavior. If everybody`s doing it we give ourselves a pass because everybody`s doing it, and that really translates into a cultural addiction where millions of people are exhibiting the same dysfunctional behavior.
Let`s face it. This country is all about the pursuit of liberty and happiness. But addiction messes with that equation. When you are getting a craving for something bad and you can`t say no, that is enslavement.
GRACE: This goes from too much food to gluttons, breeders, punishers, the players, star gazers, cyber addicts, everything. In Jane`s "Addict Nation."
Thank you, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you as always, Nancy.
GRACE: Let`s remember Marine Lance Corporal Nickolas Schiavoni, 26, Haverhill, Massachusetts, killed Iraq. On a second tour awarded two Purple Hearts. Loved state dinners and cigars with his uncle. Would give you the shirt off his back.
Leaves behind grieving parents, David and Stephanie, sister Vanessa, widow, Gina, daughter, Marissa, son, Alex.
Nickolas Schiavoni, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you.
And good night from Georgia friends Shelley and Elizabeth.
Happy 100th to Rose Train, mother of two, grandmother of three, great of two. Here she is with grandson, Jess.
And happy birthday, third birthday to crime fighter Bryan. Loves gym class and Legos.
Happy birthday, Bryan.
The fourth annual dancing for Joan Benefit Feb 26th, 7:00 p.m. Marietta, Georgia. I want to remind you of that. Go to Joan.org. Dancingforjoan.org to find out more.
See you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.
END
