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Parker Spitzer

Journalists Attacked Again; Muslim Brotherhood Speaks Out; The Future of Egypt

Aired February 03, 2011 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ELIOT SPITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, welcome to the program. I'm Eliot Spitzer. Kathleen is off this evening.

Each night since the uprising in Egypt began we've opened the program by bringing you live images of what is happening in Cairo. We cannot do that tonight. It is simply too dangerous.

Our reporters, photographers and producers in Cairo are risking their lives just by being there. Every journalist in the city is in real danger.

Instead, I thought you might be interested in what Egyptian television is showing. While we've been covering the violence in the streets, Egyptian television has been showing pretty pictures of the street and also a music video. It's called, "My President."

The words to the song are, "Our president, our president, you feel for us. You always raise our head high." Touching, isn't it? This is what life is like in a dictatorship. The state simply conceals the things it doesn't want you to see. How? Many journalists have been beaten, threatened, kidnapped.

Today our Anderson Cooper came under attack for a second time. He joins us now live on the phone from Cairo. Anderson?

ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, ANDERSON COOPER 360 (via phone): Hey, Eliot.

SPITZER: So the second time round, what happened and how are you?

COOPER: You know, I'm fine and the people I was with are fine. I can't go into many details just because I don't want to give away any kind of locator of where we may be or where this took place which would give an indication of where we maybe -- were going but I was in a vehicle that basically was going through a crowd of pro-Mubarak supporters and this was absolutely necessary to do at the time based on what we were doing.

And there was no other way around it and we basically got, you know, surrounded by the attack. Unfortunately, the driver slowed down a bit and a rock was thrown through my -- the window on my side shattering glass all over me which I'm is fine, and we, you know, just started screaming to the driver, go, go, go, go. And we got out of there luckily and we're fine.

But, you know, this has been happening -- that was a minor incident. This has been happening to reporters, as you know, all day long. This is a -- I mean, this is not just a coincidence and you had -- you know, and if you need any more evidence of this, the vice president of Egypt, the newly appointed vice president of Egypt, the man who's been running the intelligence service here for years for President Mubarak, went on television tonight and said, you know, that in part he blames satellite news channels and sort of foreign agents for what is going on here which certainly sends a chill through, you know, the heart I think of every reporter who's still working on the ground here.

It certainly is -- you know can be interpreted as a message to pro-Mubarak forces, to thugs on the street that the reporters are targets and that foreigners are targets.

SPITZER: There is no question about it, Anderson. There seems to be a concerted effort to blame the foreign media and foreigners generally for what they view as a conspiracy against President Mubarak.

Tell us, what are you seeing on the streets today? What is the scene on the streets and also what do you expect tomorrow when another major rally has been scheduled?

COOPER: Well, we've seen continued violence in Liberation Square. You know, the standoff has continued. When we awoke this morning, the opposition forces, the anti-Mubarak forces had actually taken through more territory and throughout the day took more territory.

They actually moved north past the Egyptian museum and at a certain point Egyptian soldiers actually moved in, firing shots overhead to keep the pro -- the anti-Mubarak demonstrators back from taking any more territory. And at this point the standoff continues, as you know, a massive demonstration has been called for -- this was called earlier this week.

They had planned to have a massive march of departure, they called it, and they would talk about marching on the presidential palace. Whether that actually happens is anybody's guess at this point. Anti-Mubarak forces were replenished today. Some of them were able to get into the square to help out those who had been, you know, fighting for their lives around the clock and defending the square around the clock from the pro-Mubarak forces throwing Molotov cocktails and rocks. And we've been seeing pitched battles back and forth.

What is going to happen tomorrow, though, will the people, will the hundreds of thousands of people who have demonstrated against Mubarak over the last 10 days, will they come out and even under the threat of violence that we have seen, what impact will that have? Will they actually attempt to leave the square and go to the presidential palace and what will the Egyptian military do? Those are all questions we frankly don't know the answer of and I can just tell you, you know, it's very difficult to get information. It's very difficult to just basically do our job because, you know, I can tell you and I think, you know, most reporters here feel very much under threat, and it is an extremely, extremely precarious situation.

SPITZER: You know, Anderson, you're so right. Every day seems more pivotal than the one that preceded it and of course tomorrow with that massive rally scheduled, and what will the role of the military be, the power broker that everybody has been looking to.

Fascinating questions. Thank you so much for that update and we'll be checking back with you and stay safe.

COOPER: Thanks, Eliot.

SPITZER: As Anderson just told us, journalists all over Cairo are in danger. More than 70 reporters and other news professionals have been beaten, arrested, assaulted and even kidnapped.

Journalists from CNN, ABC, "The New York Times," "The Washington Post" and more among those who were held. Lara Logan from CBS, and among those seriously injured Greg Palkot of FOX News.

Meanwhile, in an interview with ABC News today, President Mubarak said he would have liked to leave office now but he fears the chaos that would ensue. He fears the Muslim Brotherhood would take over.

The fundamentalist group is Egypt's largest and best organized opposition. It is for many the nightmare scenario and no one fears this more than Israel.

I spoke with a representative of the Muslim Brotherhood moments ago. I was, quite frankly, astonished at how firm his organization's plans are for the future. The Brotherhood is working closely with Nobel Laureate Mohamed ElBaradei.

Listen closely now to Mohamed Morsy. You'll want to hear what he has to say.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SPITZER: Mr. Morsy, thank you for joining me. So have you had direct meetings with Mohamed ElBaradei to discuss what your platform or what you want to come next?

MOHAMED MORSY, MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD SPOKESMAN: Yes, several times we met with Mr. Mohamed ElBaradei. Mr. Mohamed ElBaradei is one among the tens of Egyptian individuals who are (INAUDIBLE) in the society and capable of running to the elections, the presidential elections.

SPITZER: So have you all agreed together that you will settle more for nothing less than President Mubarak's resignation from office?

MORSY: Yes, this is very common and very clear now. SPITZER: And so all of the statements he has made about holding on through the end of his term, none of that will be acceptable to you or your -- those with whom you've been meeting including Mohamed ElBaradei?

MORSY: Yes. That's very obvious from what we've announced all these blocks.

SPITZER: Tomorrow is another big day of a major march. How many people do you think will show up and what will happen over the course of the day? Will there -- will there be violence?

MORSY: I think this will be -- I think -- I hope that no violence will happen.

SPITZER: Can you pledge that you are dedicated and your party is dedicated to freedom of religion and freedom of press?

MORSY: Oh, yes, sure.

SPITZER: For all religions.

MORSY: Sure. For all religions. Yes. Yes. Yes.

SPITZER: Christians, Jews, Muslims?

MORSY: Yes, yes, yes. Why not?

SPITZER: So that when you have a significant position or perhaps a majority position in the Egyptian parliament you will ensure freedom of press and freedom of religion.

MORSY: That's right, completely right. This is 100 percent. These are our principles.

SPITZER: And what --

MORSY: Otherwise, otherwise, if we don't do that, then we do not practice Islam as it should be. Islam is freedom for everyone regardless of his belief or color or race or whatever.

SPITZER: So if your -- if the Muslim Brotherhood had a significant position in the parliament or your candidate for president were elected would you observe and continue to uphold the peace treaty with Israel?

MORSY: Yes, let's talk about this in some details. If you want to talk about the peace treaty with Israel, this has to do with the parliament. The parliament comes from the people. Then the opinion of the parliament must be respected.

Now, if you talk about the last 30 years in this treaty the Israeli hasn't respected the treaty. In the beginning of the treaty, in the introduction, it talks about comprehensive -- peace, where is comprehensive peace? SPITZER: Well, let me ask the very simple first question. If you're -- the Muslim Brotherhood had a major role in the government or if your candidate were the president would you continue to recognize the existence of the state of Israel?

MORSY: Well, the state of Israel is already registered in the United States. We are talking about the Palestinian state now. Do you recognize a Palestinian state or not?

SPITZER: Well, I'm asking you --

MORSY: The Israeli -- does the Israelis recognize a Palestinian state or not? What can we do about a state that's registered in the United States now?

SPITZER: Mr. Morsy, I understand what you're saying, but I'm asking you again a simple question which I think can be answered yes or no. I'm not trying to be tough on you but would you recognize the state of Israel if your candidate for president were elected tomorrow? Would you recognize the state of Israel?

MORSY: Sir, sir, sir, this is a heavy question. You want to talk about the future, and you do not look into the past and the present. This is a heavy question. It's out of faith. It's ridiculous to ask about the future.

Why you don't have even your freedom in your country and you are close by, the foreign policies of the United States against the Palestinians and others. The blood is shed from the Palestinians for more than 60 years. Let us stop the bloodshed of the Palestinians and then talk about such matters in the future.

We are not against people. We are not against mankind. We are not against the Jews. We are against Zionism. We are against torturing the Palestinians.

SPITZER: Can you tell the American people that you have absolutely no connections, no links, with al Qaeda or any other terrorist organization?

MORSY: Oh, yes, clearly definitely, we do not have any kind of relationships with any organization that is practicing violence. We are against violence, wherever it comes from, governments, states, individuals, organizations. This is not acceptable at all.

SPITZER: Will you right now condemn the attacks by al Qaeda both in -- on the United States and elsewhere in the world as acts that violate --

MORSY: We did before. We are against whoever did this to the civilian people. We are against this act and we said we want a fair trial, not just an accused, and if you prove by a fair trial -- you Americans, if you prove by a fair trial who did this, we are against that whoever did it with you. We stand with you against whoever did this if you can prove really who did this.

SPITZER: One -- Mr. Morsy, one last question. Can you then right now also disavow --

MORSY: This is the -- this is the last question after the last question. Go ahead.

SPITZER: Yes, you're right. You're catching on to our style. Let me ask you one last question. I promise this is the last one. Will you then right now disavow the use of violence against the state of Israel?

MORSY: We do not use violence against anyone. What's going on on the Palestinian land is resistance.

SPITZER: All right.

MORSY: The resistance is acceptable by all mankind and it's the right of people to resist imperialism.

SPITZER: All right, Mr. Morsy, I appreciate your time and I've asked 10 last questions and we will -- I hope have an opportunity to continue this conversation down the road.

MORSY: Thank you.

SPITZER: Thank you, sir.

MORSY: Thank you, thank you.

SPITZER: Joining me now is someone with great insight into Egypt and I can't wait to hear what he has to say about my interview with the Muslim Brotherhood.

Fouad Ajami is one of the wisest observers of the Arab world. He's a professor of Middle Easter studies at Johns Hopkins University and was parenthetically my professor back when I was an undergraduate at Princeton three decades ago.

Professor Ajami, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

Thank you very much for having me.

SPITZER: So, quite simply, what do you make of those comments from Mohamed Morsy who speaks for the Muslim Brotherhood?

FOUAD AJAMI, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: Well, look, the Muslim Brotherhood, they know how to bob and weave. I mean that's the whole essence of it. They know the game very well but sadly this is the landscape that Hosni Mubarak created. You have the autocrats on one side, the theocrats on the other, and you have this -- the people of Egypt in between.

And in fact this is the game that Mubarak plays, and plays it to perfection. Now a man like Morsy, of course, he is not exactly a friend of pluralist societies. There are eight to 10 million cops in Egypt, Christian cops. Do they have a place in his design, if you will, for the future?

So I think the Muslim Brotherhood is, you know, fishing in troubled waters. This is a chance for them and they will seize it.

SPITZER: Look, you are so right. President Mubarak himself takes advantage of that alternative between chaos and a theocracy on the other side and he says that that is why he us there. He claims, he pretends.

But let's come back to the Muslim Brotherhood.

AJAMI: Sure.

SPITZER: He says the right words. He says of course we believe in the rules of pluralism. Freedom of religion, freedom of speech. Does he, in fact, believe in that?

AJAMI: No, he doesn't. I mean there is one thing I think he said which was truthful. Are they -- what about the line, the dividing line between the Muslim Brotherhood and al Qaeda?

In fact, al Qaeda really wages war against the Muslim Brotherhood. They believe that these are domesticated Islamists and Ayman al-Zawahiri, who's Egyptian, really he comes in the highest reaches of Cairo society, has nothing but contempt for the Muslim Brotherhood. He thinks that they have basically accommodated themselves to the world and Cairo and they have cut a deal with the ruler that they sat in the parliament.

So there is this dividing line between al Qaeda on the one hand, the hard Islamists, and the Muslim Brotherhood on the other.

SPITZER: So the Muslim Brotherhood is not nearly radical enough for al Qaeda?

AJAMI: Absolutely. Al Qaeda has a special animus for the Muslim Brotherhood and the relationship between Ayman al-Zawahiri, the leading figure in al Qaeda, who's Egyptian, his animus toward the Muslim Brotherhood runs very deep.

SPITZER: Of course that is true in so many religions --

AJAMI: Absolutely.

SPITZER: -- where those who are less radical always get the special (INAUDIBLE). Let's come back to another aspect of what he was saying. Do you think that the Muslim Brotherhood is ready to participate in a democratic process and participate in a parliament where they have the minority rule?

AJAMI: I think they're ready to participate because it's their way in. Once they come in then we will see what they're made of. Of course they want in, and then they find a man like Mohamed ElBaradei. Well known abroad. He looks like a nice professor which is where his beginnings were, and if they're working with ElBaradei, it's the mask for the Muslim Brotherhood.

SPITZER: And so they are using him as the front.

AJAMI: Absolutely.

SPITZER: And they intend -- once they're in then to radicalize the entire society.

AJAMI: Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPITZER: Let's come back to what he said about Israeli and peace. He danced, he bobbed, and wove. Would they be able within their own political context ever to recognize Israel?

AJAMI: You know, I don't think so. They can't recognize Israel, but luckily, if you will, for both Israelis and Arabs or Egyptians and Israelis, the matter of peace with Israel is not for the Muslim Brotherhood and not for the parliament.

The matter of peace is for the military. Anwar Sadat made that peace, Hosni Mubarak kept that peace. Anwar a slain man. The designated -- the vice president is the one who has been the point man, the contact man between Egypt and Israel so the military has put the matter of Israel and the peace with Israel as a matter for the military.

The peace, we have to be realistic, is unloved. It's a pharaoh's peace I once described it. It's a peace made by Sadat, kept by Mubarak and the Egyptian society has nothing but animus toward that peace.

SPITZER: All right, Fouad, thank you. We will be back with you later in the program for a longer conversation.

Up next, don't believe everything you hear. Fareed Zakaria says Egypt will not turn into Iran. We'll talk to him about that. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SPITZER: Although the chaos continues in Egypt, it cannot go on forever. At some point, the smoke will clear and when it does CNN's own Fareed Zakaria says Egypt may very well end up being a secular democracy. Maybe.

Fareed just penned a fascinating cover story in "TIME" magazine headlined "Revolution and What It Means for the Middle East."

Fareed, thank you so much for being here.

FAREED ZAKARIA, HOST, FAREED ZAKARIA GPS: Always a pleasure.

SPITZER: Now you still maintain hope there will be a secular democracy in Egypt. Why is that? What are the institutions that you think lay the foundation for that?

ZAKARIA: Well, the first thing to understand is that the fears of a kind of Iranian theocracy are vastly overdone. I mean, Iran is a Shia country with a Persian history. The Shia clergy always played a very powerful political role in Iran. SPITZER: Right.

ZAKARIA: Egypt as a Sunni country doesn't have that same clergy, doesn't have that same history, and also Iran has been a negative model for a large part of the world so Egyptians look at Iran not with admiration, but with a sense of, OK, we don't like Mubarak, we don't like Iran. What's left?

Egypt has some of the seeds of democracy. Look, it's going to be tough. It's a poor country. There's a lot of very religious feeling in there but they do have elements that would -- that will make it succeed.

SPITZER: And, in particular, you point in your article to at least both the army and the judiciary, as institutions that have both been stable and secular as critical pillars of what could be genuine reform.

ZAKARIA: Right, the army is resolutely secular, always has been and is very powerful. I mean the important thing to understand about Egypt's army is this is a military dictatorship under civilian guard. The army runs everything. They're very powerful and they're very secular so they will not Iranian-style takeover as far as I can tell.

Also, the judiciary as you say has been independent, has really struggled against Mubarak even at the cost of being jailed, a lot of them -- people have been bribed, but for almost a century the Egyptian judiciary has tried to maintain some independence and Egypt is a complicated country. It's not one of these small banana republics. It's has a rich tradition of other political groups, as well.

SPITZER: But perhaps on the other side of the ledger is the reality that during 30 years of rule by Mubarak, the one institution he could not repress was the mosque, was Islam. And therefore, that became the focal point for opposition voices.

ZAKARIA: But that's a very important point to understand, which is the reason the Muslim Brotherhood has this kind of allure in Egypt is it's been banned. It's been banned since 1948.

SPITZER: Right.

ZAKARIA: Occasionally allowed to group in some form. These dictatorships are all secular in the Arab world and they always repressed all the liberal opposition movements. If you wanted to start a trade union, they banned you. If you wanted to start a liberal party or -- you know a kind of pro-market party they'd ban you.

The one thing they couldn't ban was the mosque. The one thing they couldn't stop was the language of opposition that came out of the mosques because it was all cloaked in Islam.

So all the opposition movements in the Arab world tend to have a somewhat religious flavor because that was the safety valve. Something similar happened in Latin America. Liberation theology -- remember 20 years ago --

SPITZER: Absolutely. The church.

ZAKARIA: Right.

SPITZER: Absolutely.

ZAKARIA: The reason that liberation theology, which was a kind of left-wing protest movement against these right-wing dictatorships, is it all went through the church because that was the one place the church couldn't -- the dictators couldn't shut down.

SPITZER: Sure. Fascinating metaphor. You're right. The one escape valve, therefore all the opposition voices are there. It survives but you misinterpret society if you think that is the exclusive domain of opposition.

ZAKARIA: And once you open up the society and you have lots of other groups --

SPITZER: Others will be fostered.

ZAKARIA: Others will be fostered. Look at Iraq here. I mean Iraq is a very messy chaotic place, but what you see is the initial surge of religious parties has given way to a more variegated political pattern.

SPITZER: Right. Now, but as you point out this is a much more complicated dynamic. You have the powerful Islamic tendency and 80 somewhat percent of the public favors stoning as a penalty for adultery. On the other hand you have 80 percent favoring a free press. So you have a real tension there between traditional religious views -- at least traditional as understood through some parts of Islam -- and traditional western liberal democracy.

ZAKARIA: Yes, and what you've got to hope for here, and this is the part, as I say, it's my hope, it's not my confident prediction. What you've got to hope for Egypt is that complex, it has liberal group, it has Marxist groups, it has trade unions, it has businessmen's organizations, and it has Islamic organizations, some of which are quite more moderate. Some of which are more extreme and then it has the army.

And that this is going to allow for an interplay of forces when no one will dominate.

SPITZER: Is the army sacrificing its credibility? It does stand in a separate place visually for most of Egyptian society but its role in the past couple of days. It has appeared to back Mubarak's repression and, in fact, in Tahrir Square its role has been, you know, suspect at a minimum. Is Suleiman particularly sacrificing his credibility right now?

ZAKARIA: They are, but I understand what's going on. The army has a lot of skin in this game. The army at the end of the day is the principal beneficiary of the system that Mubarak has in place. This goes back even before Mubarak.

SPITZER: Right.

ZAKARIA: It's a military dictatorship. What does that mean? The army has -- the biggest houses in Egypt are owned by generals.

SPITZER: Right.

ZAKARIA: The army has a financial interest, it has economic interest. It is the ruling establishment in Egypt so they don't want the rug pulled under -- from them quite so fast and they probably want to make sure that if they sacrifice Mubarak, they still get to stay in power.

SPITZER: But at a certain point they have to distance themselves or else they go down with the ship.

ZAKARIA: They are making a calculation right now I think that they can outlast these protests that Mubarak by making the concession that he's not going to run in September has given enough that they can now hold firm.

I don't know that it's the right calculation but that seems to be the calculation they've made.

SPITZER: Well, that raises the very dicey issue as somebody who's observed a transition in a vacuum is a dangerous thing. So is the army saying a transition right now is wrong from any perspective because it leads purely to chaos?

ZAKARIA: I think that's what they're betting on that most Egyptians will say, wait, what's going to happen and I think the opposition here, and ElBaradei and others, need to make clear very concretely know how this will work. So I mean this is now getting into the weeds of the Egyptian constitution.

SPITZER: Right.

ZAKARIA: But when Mubarak were to resign tomorrow that -- the Egyptian constitution says that you have to have an election in 60 days for the next president. Do they really want an election in 60 days? ElBaradei says he wants an interim government for a year. Well, there is no provision for that in the Egyptian constitution.

SPITZER: Right.

ZAKARIA: Are you just going to tear up the constitution? It's not a promising way to begin, you know, more law-abiding regime.

SPITZER: Right.

ZAKARIA: So they've got to figure this out and there are probably answers to it.

SPITZER: Now, having said that, also attacking every journalist in sight, sending in marauding crowds through Tahrir Square with Molotov cocktails is not a constitutional approach either. So the chaos is denigrating the entire structure of government right now even if the solution of resignation may not be perfect.

ZAKARIA: Oh, absolutely. I mean the government -- Mubarak is clearly trying to create a situation where he creates chaos and then says only I can restore order.

SPITZER: That's right.

ZAKARIA: It's a very --

SPITZER: Chaos and Mubarak is the choice he wants the public to see.

ZAKARIA: Right. And then he sees -- he creates the chaos so you then want him.

SPITZER: Right. Let's come back to the United States, the role the White House has been playing. What leverage does the White House have at this point? It seems it took its shot with Mubarak. He is basically thumbing his nose right now.

What is left for the White House to do?

ZAKARIA: I think they can still pressure him in two or three different ways. The first is we still have very good ties with the military and I think we should be active on those channels. I think the president still has, you know, his own personal authority and the third would be public.

The president has not come out publicly and said that he thinks Hosni Mubarak should resign. I'm not saying that he should say that as you recall. I felt that he should privately say which he apparently did to Mubarak but were he to do it publicly and frankly were it to be a coordinated statement from the United States and then the major powers in Europe, that would put enormous pressure on Mubarak.

SPITZER: All right, Fareed, thank you so much. This will be a continuing conversation as these events unfold before our eyes. Thank you so much.

ZAKARIA: Pleasure. Pleasure.

SPITZER: Coming up, if you're to watch Egyptian state TV right now, the sun would be shining and the birds would be chirping, but we'll talk to an Egyptian journalist who knows better. She'll tell us what state TV is not telling the people when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SPITZER: And this just in. Word for a plan for President Hosni Mubarak to resign immediately. A "New York Times" report has just come in saying the Obama administration is working on a plan that would involve the following: Mubarak would immediately turn over power to Vice President Omar Suleiman who would have the support of the military. The proposal also calls for this transitional government to include a broad range of opposition groups, included in that coalition would be the Muslim Brotherhood. We'll have more details when and if they become available, but this would clearly be a dramatic change for Egypt.

Meanwhile, as we saw earlier, the revolutionary movement in Egypt has been virtually invisible on State TV. That's business as usual according to Ethar El-Katatney, an Egyptian journalist who's appeared on Egypt's Nile TV. Ethar has spent the past couple of days watching State TV around the clock and can't believe the coverage of the revolution. She joins us tonight from Cairo via Skype.

Ethar, begin by telling us what have you seen on the TV screen on official State TV news?

ETHAR EL-KATATNEY, EGYPTIAN JOURNALIST: Well, it's been -- it's actually very fun to watch in a sense, what we call in Egypt something that makes you laugh and cry, give you high blood pressure and at the same time makes you laugh.

The first day after January 25th we had the protest. You had tens of thousands of people in the street. And there was absolutely nothing on State TV, nothing. Not even one mention of it. And then once it turns out the situation wasn't going to go away in one day, they eventually switched to two shots. And that's what we've been seeing quite entirely. One shot is a nice beautiful picture of the Nile with the October (ph) Bridge and you have the Cairo tower in the background. And the other shot is directly from their opposite, underneath their offices which is near the October (ph) Bridge with three tanks and no people. So whenever you had thousands of people in Tahrir, those are the shots that people have been seeing.

What they've been hearing is that there's absolutely nothing wrong and what has been almost 10 days now, we never heard. There's never been one shot of an anti-Mubarak sign. There hasn't been one caller. All the callers are all pro-Mubarak or they're all terrified people. We should all stop this. This is wrong. You're tearing down the country. All the guests are all pro-Mubarak. There was even one shot I remember seeing. A tank was driving by and actually had graffiti on it down with Mubarak. They actually kind of pixilated that so you wouldn't be able to see that.

There's a lot of paranoia and there's a lot of fear mongering and people watch especially with the large segment of Egyptian population who doesn't really have access to Internet. They blocked Al Jazeera for a while. So, and -- so for these people who watch, a lot of them are taking a lot of patriotic songs, you know, a lot of we have to stand by our country. There's a flag in the corner of the screen protect Egypt, anti-Baradei signs -- they just don't mention information.

For example like yesterday, when you have the horses and camels in downtown, they didn't even mention that. They said this was false. Even though you had Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya and CNN, everyone is broadcasting footage. They were denying it. And then suddenly they're like, oh, OK, there were a couple of camels. SPITZER: You have been on Nile TV a fair number of times over the years, of course. Have you ever been censored? Have they ever tried to control what you say?

EL-KATATNEY: Well, State TV works very much on -- every channel has an agenda. You know, CNN, you know, you guys are getting allegations that you're trying to get the ratings up but Al Jazeera, for example, will be won't say anything about the ruling family. So for State TV, it's very well known that there are topics that won't be discussed. So it's not so much as censuring, it's more of the self- censuring you already know what won't be -- what you can't mention and what you will mention. So it works kind of, you already know before you start working what's going to be mentioned and what's not going to be mentioned.

So, for example, I know when events in Tunisia were happening and I was discussing it, they didn't -- when I was on the press that day when we're discussing the newspapers, that wasn't supposed to be mentioned at all. And I mentioned it because, you know, it's happening and it's really important. In Lebanon when the situation was deteriorating, the government, we were talking about Sudan. So you kind of know what's going to be said and what's not going to be said beforehand.

SPITZER: One last question, Ethar, given everything you just told us about the censorship and how lacking in credibility Nile TV is, at least as you described it, does the general public believe Nile TV?

EL-KATATNEY: I think it's not just Nile TV. There's a kind of sense, you know, towards even our press, even our national -- our newspapers. We actually have a saying in Egypt. You know, when someone is lying or kind of omitting the truth, we tell them, you know, this is (speaking in a foreign language), this is newspaper speak. Because that's how the media was generally seen before we had independent media. You know, a while back, we had a picture, a doctored photo of the president in front of Obama. Now that also made headlines everywhere. So it's kind of, you know, a kind of resignation towards, oh, this is what we're to be expected but, you know, they love the country. They want stability for the country so it's OK. So a lot of people though watch it, they'll take it with a pinch of salt. They'll get their news from other media outlets. They'll poke fun at it but at the same time you also have to bear in mind that a large portion of the Egyptian public is illiterate, is uneducated, so for them this might be, you know, a kind of -- they might take it at face value and do believe. And there are -- it does happen, especially the rumors and the kind of fear and paranoia that's instilled in people to turn against what's been happening on the ground.

SPITZER: All right.

EL-KATATNEY: So even one last thing, you know, even our -- even when talking about the papers, yes, I actually have a copy of the paper for you. You can see, this is the -- this is today. This is -- these are the headlines today. This is Al Ahram (ph). And the headline reads "Millions turn out -- millions come to support Mubarak." And you have, you know, Akbar, which is the second paper, huge conspiracy theory against Egypt. You have also, Egypt is stronger than this. And you only have the independent media who are actually covering so you have (INAUDIBLE) which is our biggest paper and they're the ones saying, you know, that Tahrir Square turned into a bloodbath yesterday.

On the 25th, the first day when the protest happened, the second day you have Al Ahram (ph) absolutely nothing on their front page. Just a small mention saying, you know, people gave police some flowers and chocolate. And I think that just perfectly represents the state media in Egypt.

SPITZER: All right. Ethar, that is fascinating and stay safe. And I hope we will talk to you again in the days ahead.

EL-KATATNEY: Thank you very much.

SPITZER: In a moment, some harrowing moments for another one of our reporters in Cairo. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SPITZER: For a week now, we've shown you images of Cairo on fire and bloodied protesters determined to carry on. But as we mentioned earlier, threats, arrests and in some cases brutal assaults against journalists are limiting what our reporters can bring you from the ground. Our Arwa Damon has in the last few hours bravely dodged an attack and withstood the taunts and jeers of Mubarak supporters. She just filed this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARWA DAMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With such hatred on the streets the battle pauses for prayers. The only thing both sides seem to agree on for a brief moment. Metal sheets pillaged from a construction site formed the new front line as morning breaks. Smaller numbers on both sides but just as intense.

Anti-Mubarak demonstrators continue to battle those who support the president, determined not to give up hard-won ground. Behind the anti-Mubarak front lines dozens of walking wounded, covered in dried blood, bandaged, looking slightly dazed.

This man says morale is high. We don't want to bring down Hosni Mubarak. He should be put on trial and executed. In the heart of Tahrir Square, the semblance of a peaceful demonstration. But in reality, the day was anything but. Journalists trying to cover the day's events were violently attacked by Mubarak supporters seemingly fueled by an almost primal anger or being roughed up and then detained by security forces.

Disturbing images circulating on the Internet delivered another shock to the Egyptian public. A security vehicle barrels into a crowd of anti-Mubarak protesters. In another video as demonstrators throw rocks at armored vehicles, sirens wailed as a fire truck comes barreling into the crowd, all serving to further fuel suspicions in Egypt that the government is using its resources against anti-Mubarak demonstrators and further polarizing Egypt's once seemingly united society. As the chaotic scenes continued to unfold, Egypt's newly appointed prime minister vowed to investigate who was responsible for the previous day's violence.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There will be a full and deep investigation about --

DAMON: And the absence of security that caused the lawlessness that harmed all of the people. And yet on the street no indication the state was making any effort to truly end the violence. Other than the military sporadically firing into the air. Eventually, by late afternoon, the anti-Mubarak demonstrators surged forward forcing the pro-Mubarak element back as the nation's new vice president went on state television and said that Mubarak would stay in power until September for the benefit of the country. The word leaving is the call for chaos.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a call for chaos.

DAMON: But chaos is already reality. Come nightfall, a silence not heard across the square for days. The anti-Mubarak demonstrators for the moment in control of Tahrir Square, as shops boarded up their fronts in anticipation of yet another potentially worse confrontation.

Arwa Damon, CNN, Cairo.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SPITZER: Coming up, you've heard of the domino effect. Well, the dominoes sure seem to be falling in the Middle East. First Tunisia, now Egypt. Who's next? We'll follow the chain reaction. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SPITZER: Remember Egypt is not the only country in the Middle East where revolution is brewing. Today angry demonstrators gathered again in the streets of Yemen. Calling it a day of rage, thousands rallied against the autocratic reign of President Ali Abdullah Saleh who has already promised to step down at the end of his term.

CNN International's Mohammed Jamjoom joins us from Sana'a, Yemen, tonight by phone. He's the only American reporter in Yemen.

Welcome, Mohammed. And tell us, does Yemen look anything like Egypt over the past couple of days?

MOHAMMED JAMJOOM, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Thank you, Eliot. Well, while there had been increasing anti-government demonstrations in Yemen the last couple of weeks, right now the movement here, the anti-government movement does not quite have the momentum that it does in Egypt. Although we were out today, this was the largest anti-government demonstration we've seen yet in the capital. Over 15,000 people demonstrating calling on the president to step down.

This group was clearly emboldened to be out there because of what they saw go on in Tunisia and what they're seeing going on in Egypt. They're expressing solidarity with the Egyptian people and they're also calling on their leader to step down.

We saw lots of placards saying that the president here should leave, just as the Egyptian people are calling on President Mubarak to leave. They are expressing solidarity with the Egyptians. They want change. We saw children holding up pieces of bread saying that their parents don't have enough money because the regime doesn't offer jobs to the people here and that they can't be fed properly. We saw people saying no to corruption. And even though President Mubarak offered concessions to the opposition yesterday, said he would not seek re- election in 2013, said he would not seek to appoint his son as his successor. The people we spoke today in the anti-government camp said they don't think that's enough and they don't believe those words. There were also pro-government demonstrations today. Thousands of people turned out for those. There's been a concerted effort here in Yemen that whenever there is an anti-government demonstration that they get out people that support the president, as well. Those people were out in force, as well, but not as many and not nearly the fervor on that end -- Eliot.

SPITZER: Mohammed, most Americans are aware of Yemen's existence I hate to admit it only because of its cooperation with the Defense Department, with the United States, in confronting Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. What is the relationship between the Yemen government and the United States in a deeper level and give us some more texture. What is the nature of the grievance of the Yemeni people? Are they living in dire poverty? Is the economy growing? What is driving this anger?

JAMJOOM: That's really driving the anger is the lack of economic opportunity here. Yemen is the most impoverished country in this region because a very wealthy region, the Yemeni people are poor. Per capital income here is a little less than $500 a year. There's very little opportunity for the people here. There are so many children that are also malnourished here.

Yemen is a country that's beset by strife. There's so much that's going on here. There's this secessionist movement that's really causing concern in the south. There's a rebellion going on in the north. There's a water crisis and you also have to top it all off a resurgent and emboldened Al Qaeda that keeps growing. The base for Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula is in Yemen. They are launching more spectacular type attacks from Yemen against not just regional neighbors but also the U.S. and also key western allies of Yemen. Even before these protests were going on, the allies of Yemen were concerned because of the growing threat of Al Qaeda here. Now because these protests are growing, especially in light of the events of Tunisia and the events in Egypt, the allies of Yemen, the key allies in Yemen's war on terror and the people who want to make sure that Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula is vanquished, they're concerned that this government could fail. And they don't know who's going to step in or who could step in in a leadership position if Ali Abdullah Saleh were forced from office. Ali Abdullah Saleh is seen as a key ally to the U.S. in the war on terror. Even though there are concerns about his leadership, the concerns about corruption in the government and concerns about how weak the control government in Yemen may be, he's still seen as the main person here in Yemen who they think can unify the country in some sort of cohesive way -- Eliot.

SPITZER: All right. Mohammed Jamjoom, thanks so much for joining us.

When we come back, our friend Fouad Ajami with some surprising insights on Egypt. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SPITZER: We're back again with Professor Fouad Ajami of Johns Hopkins University.

Professor, you heard the report of a potential deal where Suleiman would take over, the military would be with him and then a broader coalition. What do you make of this and what is the linchpin to its possibility?

FOUAD AJAMI, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY: Well, obviously since this rebellion has been in a way -- it's kind of now been embodied in the person of Hosni Mubarak, so the issue is, is the regime, if you will, can the regime be saved and Hosni Mubarak be sent packing. And for the army this is the great choice it has to make. Does it go down with pharaoh? Does it fight for pharaoh? Does it fight for the house of Mubarak? Does it fight for Suzanne Mubarak, the wife? Or does the army, is it a national institution that will fight for the integrity of the armed forces? I mean this is the choice they have to make.

SPITZER: And, of course, the military has played a very interesting role over the course of this week or a bit longer. They have been passive in the square not firing basically at anybody. Trying to elevate their prestige and separate themselves from Mubarak, so it might be this is the critical moment they will step aside.

AJAMI: Well, the army is the black box here. Nobody really knows what's happening in the army. If you really want one conversation to be privy to, it would be that time when the senior commanders of the army have the final conversation, the ultimate conversation with President Mubarak. Because think of this dynastic bid that Mubarak was making for his son, Gamal. That wasn't with the approval of the armed forces because for the armed forces this country is theirs. They made this revolution and neither Sadat nor Nasser, much larger figures than Hosni Mubarak ever entertained dynastic succession. They stayed within the rules of the system and Mubarak broke those rules.

SPITZER: And so this could be the moment when they say Mubarak, you are going to be put in the scrap heap of history, we the military institutionally. Now, of course, the tension is Mubarak came from the military and they have been loyal to him for the past 30 years and he has been good to them. AJAMI: Right, and I think there is an expression I like immensely which applies here where Muslim use it all the time where you say (Speaking in a foreign language). Only God knows this.

No one really knows. And we don't even know what the Americans really truly are telling the Egyptians. I guess for that we have to wait for Bob Woodward to tell us.

SPITZER: He's inside "The Situation Room" right now. Of course, the other interesting thing is so much of the Egyptian military has been trained here.

AJAMI: Absolutely.

SPITZER: And so the influence may be from Bob Gates, our secretary of defense, to Suleiman saying this is enough.

AJAMI: Well, look, Egypt is not Iran. You can't turn off the lights. The Iranians had their revolution against the regime in 2009 and the regime put out the lights. Expelled all outsiders. Lived off oil income. It had its own money. It could snub the world. It couldn't care less what Barack Obama thought.

Egypt is in a very different place and in a very different existential and economic situation. It's at the crossroads of Asia, Africa, Europe. It's very vulnerable to American approval and to American opinion.

Now, I'll tell you one thing. Hosni Mubarak would have really gone out after these people had he not known that he is under American gaze, so maybe people have some objections to what we're doing and we're not doing but we have given protection to these people. It was the same protection, by the way, that George W. Bush gave the Cedar Revolution in Lebanon five years ago so the lights can't be turned out. Yes, you can attack these journalists and this is what we should be waiting for. Is Hosni Mubarak ready for a Tiananmen moment?

SPITZER: Right.

AJAMI: Maybe this is it.

SPITZER: And is the military willing to fire when he tells them to which is critical?

AJAMI: Absolutely. Because he can't wage a Tiananmen moment with thugs.

SPITZER: Right.

AJAMI: HE can try to intimidate people with thugs. He can break their heads. This is not for this massive crackdown that would, in fact, call off this revolution. He needs the army to go with him.

SPITZER: All right. Literally the 40 seconds we have left, and I'm going to ask you an impossible question. If there were an election tomorrow, the Muslim Brotherhood, we've heard their voices tonight on the show. You have expressed your deep skepticism about who they are and what they are. What percentage of the public would go with them as opposed to a more secular vision of Egyptian society?

AJAMI: You know, I think no one really knows. And I don't think it will ever be decided by the numbers. This is not about, you know, one man, one vote and we count the votes and we see who wins. This is about raw power.

SPITZER: Right.

AJAMI: It really is about raw power. Does the Egyptian middle class with the army as its instrument, does it defend itself against the Muslim brothers and the Muslim fundamentalists?

SPITZER: All right. Fouad Ajami, the wisdom that we always listen to, thank you so much for being here tonight. And thank you for those great lectures 30 years ago when I was a freshman at Princeton.

Good night from New York. "PIERS MORGAN TONIGHT" starts right now.