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Nancy Grace
Confession Details Murders, Dismemberment of Three in Ohio
Aired February 08, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Ohio suburbs. Mommy never makes it to work at the local DQ. Her two children vanish into thin air after getting off a school bus. Their close neighbor, Stephanie Strang, disappears, as well. In a bizarre twist, the missing 13-year-old girl rescued alive, found gagged, bound in the basement of a nearby home.
The bodies of the two missing moms and the 11-year-old boy found in garbage bags stuffed down into a hollow tree there in a heavily wooded area 20 miles from home. Investigative files describe a bloody murder scene straight out of a slasher movie. The suspect, a tree trimmer, drags the victims, including the family dog, into the woods, uses a harness to raise the bodies and drop them one by one into the bottom of the hollow tree.
Bombshell tonight. We obtained the bone-chilling murder confession, the killer describing in full detail his plan to commit a murder spree, including surveilling the home overnight, watching outside in the dark from a sleeping bag across the street. And tonight, just obtained, surveillance video of the killer stocking up on murder supplies at the local Wal-Mart. And why -- why -- did he only let one victim survive, the 13-year-old little girl? Tonight, the answers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eerily calm and seemingly unaffected, Matthew Hoffman is captured on this surveillance video. It was in the early morning hours Hoffman was inside a Mount Vernon Wal-Mart, shopping for items to dispose of the bodies of two women, a child and a family dog.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I grabbed the knife that I had put down on the nightstand and stabbed the woman on the bed through her back twice. I chased the other woman down and stabbed her a couple times in the chest."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bodies were located in a wooded area inside of garbage bags in a hollow tree.
GRACE: He did tree trimming and was an outdoorsman?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He takes his time choosing the right tarps and garbage bags.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "After a while, I came to the conclusion that I was going to dispose of the bodies and burn the house down."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, South Carolina. A 16-month-old baby boy rushed to the ER, severe injuries to the head. Baby Rowan (ph) dies. Tonight, Mommy`s defense -- the baby was possessed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMBER BRACCI, MOTHER: I love my son with all my heart.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nineteen-year-old mother Amber Bracci and her boyfriend, John Weaver (ph), are charged in killing Bracci`s toddler.
BRACCI: I may not have been a perfect mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to authorities, the Reginald (ph) woman admitted she hit her son in the head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She hit her 16-month-old son, Rowan, because she believed he was possessed.
BRACCI: I picked my son up out of bed at 10:30 in the morning, and he was limp.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 16-month-old was unresponsive. He was transported to MUSC, where he was later pronounced dead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say the boy died of a closed head injury at the hands of another person or persons.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to court papers, Amber Bracci told police she smoked pot twice after she noticed her 16-month-old son in distress.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A few days after Rowan died, Bracci told us Weaver was to blame.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We will never, ever have Rowan back! You could have come and you could have woken me up. And because you chose not to, you will rot for this!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Autopsy reportedly shows at least six hours passed between the time Rowan was struck in the head and the time his mother called for help.
BRACCI: There are things that I regret.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Mommy never makes it to work it at the local DQ. Her two children vanish into thin air off the school bus. Their neighbor disappears, as well. After the missing 13-year-old girl is found alive, the bodies of the two missing moms and the 11-year-old boy found stuffed down a hollow tree. Tonight, we obtain the bone-chilling murder confession, and just obtained surveillance video surfaces of the killer stocking up on murder supplies at the local Wal-Mart.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I decided to process the bodies and dispose of them inside a tree that I knew was hollow."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hoffman told investigators that about 100 feet in, he took the bodies and dumped them in a hollow tree.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hoffman disposed of the bodies more than 12 hours after the murders.
GRACE: A tree trunk this big? How do you fit three bodies in there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This guy was a tree trimmer. He severed limbs for a living.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I parked my car in Howard (ph) and walked from there to the house. I got to the woods across the street from the house a little after midnight. I slept across the street from the house that night in a sleeping bag.
I woke up at daylight. There were two vehicles parked at the house during the night, and I saw that the gray car had left. I went back to sleep until around 9:00 on Wednesday morning. I stayed there until a woman left in a pickup truck. This meant there were no vehicles at the house.
I walked across the street and tried to enter the front door, but it was locked. I then went in through the garage door. The garage door was not closed all the way, so I slid under it into the garage. I kicked the door into the house from the garage.
By this time, it was approximately 10:30 AM Wednesday morning. I looked around the house to make sure no one was there. Even if I did not take anything, there was a certain amount of excitement in being in someone else`s home without them being there."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Phil Trexler with "The Akron Beacon-Journal." Phil, the details this guy gives in his statement are horrendous. But what made him talk to police?
PHIL TREXLER, "AKRON BEACON-JOURNAL" (via telephone): Well, this thing is twisted. It`s demented. It`s sick. And Nancy, when you really look at this confession, it`s so self-serving. No remorse. And it was to save his own butt. That`s what it`s all about, Nancy. He was promised no death penalty if he would just lead authorities to the bodies of the two women and the young boy. That`s what he did.
GRACE: You are kidding me! They gave up the opportunity to seek the death penalty? This is a guy who surveilled the family home from across the street all night in a sleeping bag across the street, goes in. It`s like a crime horror flick inside. He lets the little girl, the 13-year- old, live so he can molest her. She`s found bound and gagged. Then he kills three people and the family dog, lowers them by a harness -- it`s like out of a horror movie, it`s like Hannibal Lecter -- into a hollow tree. He`s a tree trimmer. And they`re not seeking the death penalty. Did they really need his confession that much?
Jean Casarez, you want to tell me, with a crime scene that bloody and under that scenario they don`t have enough evidence to nail him?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": In a triple murder. Triple murder, Nancy. You know, we`re watching surveillance video from Wal-Mart, and that`s really how I think they tracked him down because once he had killed his victims, dismembered his victims, put them in plastic bags in the home -- the plastic was a little flimsy, you know? To put it down the tree, it probably would get holes in it. So he went to the Wal-Mart and he purchased some heavy-duty plastic bags, and he also purchased some tarps. Well, he happened to leave that in the garage in the Wal-Mart sack, and they tracked him down from that surveillance video.
GRACE: OK, Liz, keep that Wal-Mart video going. I want to see -- I want to hear from you, Jean Casarez, everything we know that he bought at Wal-Mart. I mean, how do we know Wal-Mart needs a whole aisle, murder supplies?
CASAREZ: This is what we know. We know he bought heavy-duty, thick, plastic bags. We also know he bought tarps. They were in the Wal-Mart bag that he left in the garage. But those plastic bags were used to make sure his victims got down that hollow 60-foot tree.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, former prosecutor Kristina Korobov joining us out of Washington, D.C., Darryl Cohen, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Raymond Giudice, trial lawyer, Atlanta.
Darryl Cohen, you were a felony prosecutor for years before you became a defense attorney. Why -- why -- did they give up the right to seek the death penalty in exchange for his confession? Who cares about his confession?
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I think the reason they gave it up is that you and I both know that when there`s a trial, even though, in my view, it`s a foregone conclusion he`s going to be convicted, there`s an appeal. And there`s another appeal and another appeal. This way, they cut it off. You`re entering a plea. We want to know where the people are. Let it go.
GRACE: They had the people! Did they not have the people, Jean Casarez?
CASAREZ: Yes, they did. They had the people, Nancy.
GRACE: So, OK, Darryl, erase -- erase that last legal analysis. Raymond Giudice, they had the bodies. Why would they give up the death penalty? Who cares if he appeals? Everybody appeals. That`s the cost of doing business.
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Listen, even as a defense lawyer, this is a death penalty case times three. But I`m looking at the agreement right here, Nancy, same one you`ve got, and...
GRACE: Is that what I asked you?
GIUDICE: ... and at the bottom, I see the DA`s name...
GRACE: No, that`s not what I asked you.
GIUDICE: ... on it. No, the point is this. The district attorney in this case had various reasons. He may have wanted to save county resources. He may have not have wanted the victims` family to have to sit through these gruesome, gruesome details. Those are legitimate and appropriate concerns for an elected district attorney to keep in mind in entering a plea like this.
GRACE: OK. Stop right there. Number one, most of the family`s wiped out. So there`s not...
GIUDICE: There`s still somebody.
GRACE: I believe I was speaking, Raymond! I allowed you to do your discourse. Now put a sock in it! Most of the family is wiped out, so they`re not going to be attending the trial. They`re dead. They were stuffed in a tree. Number two, whatever family, victim`s family that doesn`t want to sit in the courtroom, they don`t have to. They can leave. This is about justice.
Out to you Kristina Korobov. I want to ask you, why would the prosecution in a case with overwhelming evidence give up the right to seek the death penalty?
KRISTINA KOROBOV, FORMER PROSECUTOR: In this case, Nancy, it`s what the families wanted. They wanted to recover the bodies because without that evidence -- I mean, proving it up in court is one thing, but actually taking your family members home and being able to have a burial and stand over them that one last time...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wa-wait
KOROBOV: ... and say good-bye -- that`s what it was about.
GRACE: Kristina, that doesn`t make sense because you have a burial whether there`s a murder trial or not. So they would have a burial, whether the state is seeking the death penalty or not. What are you saying?
KOROBOV: They didn`t have the bodies without his confession. It was his confession and his willingness to tell police where the bodies were that got him that plea agreement because without those, they never would have had the bodies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "When she made her way back into the bedrooms, I confronted her and made her get onto the bed lying face down. I believe that we were in her bedroom. I had a blackjack. I was going to try to knock her out. I hit her a couple times in the head, but this would not knock her out. It was not doing the job, and I started panicking.
The next thing that I knew, her friend came into the bedroom. I have no idea when she got there, what she was doing there, and how she gained access. The other woman yelled at me. There was now two to deal with, and I did not know what to do."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s here they found the bodies of Tina Herrmann, Stephanie Sprang and Kody Maynard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stuffed in a hollow tree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I took the bodies into the bathroom and began processing the bodies to dispose of them. I used garbage bags from within the house and placed the bodies inside."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now we know exactly what happened, according to his confession.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I grabbed the knife that I had put down on the nightstand and stabbed the woman on the bed through her back twice. I chased the other woman down and stabbed her a couple times in the chest. Instead of running out of the house, she had run into another bedroom. I believe this bedroom was for a girl due to the contents of the room.
I then went back to the other bedroom where the first woman was located and stabbed her a couple more times. I could tell that both women were now dead. I did not want to kill anyone, and I tried to just knock the first woman out so that I would be able to escape. This was not working. A second woman showed up, and things quickly spiraled out of control."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: "I didn`t want to kill anyone"? Then why did he come into the home, sneak into the home, armed to the nose -- knifes, machetes, you name it -- murder three people, keep the little girl alive so he could molest her, and then drop the bodies with a harness into a hollow tree? Can you imagine this scenario? That is what this small community is facing tonight.
We are taking your calls. Out to Trina in Washington. Hi, Trina. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. The confession says that burglary was the motive, but I don`t buy it. It seems like quite a leap to go from burglary to child rape. It reminds me (INAUDIBLE) of the Shasta Groene case. Is this killer going to be kept in some kind of protective custody in prison, away from the general population?
GRACE: Well, I certainly hope not, Trina. But let`s go first -- first -- you got two questions. One, burglary as motive. You`re right, Trina. That is complete BS, complete BS, because why would a burglar, after he surveils the house overnight -- what kind of perv is this that sleeps in a sleeping bag across the street to surveil a house? Then he goes in while the people are there. He`s not going in to burglarize. His story is a big lie, more of a reason he should get the death penalty.
But the second part of your question -- let`s see, what was it, Jean? She wanted to know was it a burglary...
CASAREZ: Protective custody.
GRACE: Oh, yes, protective custody. Let`s go out to Tom Shamshak, former police chief, private investigator, instructor at Boston University. Protective custody -- I don`t believe he would be in protective custody once he`s entered a plea.
TOM SHAMSHAK, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Good evening, Nancy. Well, Nancy, as you well know, there is a hierarchy within the prison system, and the lowest form of demon is somebody who has molested a child. He will have to be protected. The inmates will turn on him. This is a fellow who, unfortunately for him, faces the risk of his own death...
GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
SHAMSHAK: ... at the hands of inmates.
GRACE: Wait a minute. Tom Shamshak, child molesters go to prison all the time, every day, thousands across the country, and they are not in protective custody. They`re not.
Darryl Cohen, what about the theory of him being in protective custody?
COHEN: I hope that he is not segregated. I hope that the prison population gets to him and gets to him quickly, let him find exactly what happened (ph). But Nancy, it`s normal. When a child is molested, that`s the worst possible thing that anyone can do, and the prison population will take care of him in their own way, hopefully sooner rather than later.
GRACE: But Ray, yes, no, is he going to be in protective custody? That`s what I keep asking. I don`t think he is.
GIUDICE: Yes. Yes, I disagree with you, Nancy. The person in charge of the jail, i.e. the warden, is not interested in having justice done in his jail vigilante-style. He`s interested in having peace and calmness and not a riot, and he`s probably going to have some protective custody. He might get got to one day when he`s not looking, but I think they`re going to take some steps to protect him. Yes, I do.
GRACE: What about it, Kristina?
KOROBOV: I have to agree that he will be put somewhere, particularly because of the length of his sentence. They`re usually kept away from other inmates. Especially, he killed a child, as well, so that certainly puts you at the low end of the (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Out to the lines. Lee in Illinois. Hi, Lee. Lee, are you with me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just personally feel like that we are more -- that people are more concerned about the offender than they are the child. I mean, I`m not saying that we shouldn`t care, but my thing is, what about the child? What about the child? Is he (SIC) getting counseling? Is he getting help?
GRACE: You know what? You`re so right because that`s what I`m hearing on this program tonight, that everybody`s all concerned about this three-time killer, and I`m not counting the family dog, about whether he`s getting protective custody behind bars. Who was there to protect that little girl, her dead mother, her dead brother, even the neighbor, all dead because this man, Matthew Hoffman, wanted to molest a 13-year-old girl. He wiped out the whole family for that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "I did not enter the house to kill those people."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hoffman was inside a Mount Vernon Wal-Mart, shopping for items to dispose of the bodies. He takes his time choosing the right tarps and garbage bags.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Once I have finished processing the bodies, I move the Jeep into the garage to load up the bodies."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators are saying he dragged the bodies to this tree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, I understand Hoffman was an experienced tree trimmer who had his own harnesses, so investigators believe he brought the bodies here, hauled them up to the very top. Inside, there`s a hollow hole. From there, he dropped them down to the base.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. For those of you just joining us, he is suspected, he is accused of breaking into a family home, murdering three plus the family dog in order to molest the 13-year-old girl.
Out to David Lohr, crime reporter with AOLNews.com. David, thank you for being with us. What can you tell us about this case?
DAVID LOHR, AOLNEWS.COM: Well, one of the things we haven`t touched on that I think is interesting is the part where he talks about the 13- year-old girl. I mean, the way he tells it, she`s his guest. You know, he takes her back to his house. They watch a couple movies together. He buys her a book. He cooks her dinner, and he sleeps with her at night with his arm around her. And he talks like he took such great care of her, where in reality, for four days, this girl was nothing more than a sex slave to him. But at the whole time, he`s promising her, You`ll be home for Christmas, I`m going to release you.
GRACE: What do we know about how the 13-year-old girl was found?
LOHR: When the police entered the home on the fourth day, she was in the basement. She was bound, and he had her on a bed that was made out of leaves. He had another room, a similar room in his house that there was leaves on the walls. He had insulated the home...
GRACE: Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!
LOHR: ... with leaves and (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Wait! Wait! Wait! Put up Lohr. Put up David Lohr. Maybe my IFB is not working. I`ve got to make sure I can read your lips on this. He insulated the inside of his home with leaves from trees?
LOHR: Yes, hue had insulated a room with leaves. He put them in plastic bags. He put leaves on the floor, made a bed out of leaves. Apparently, he`s very connected to the woods, I guess.
GRACE: And that`s where he held the girl?
LOHR: Yes. He kept her on a bed that was made out of leaves.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Once I had finished processing the bodies, I moved the Jeep into the garage to load up the bodies. I still had a couple of bags to load into the Jeep when I heard the children come into the house. I confronted the children, and the girl instantly ran to a bedroom. I stabbed the boy in the chest a couple times. I ran into the bedroom after the girl to make sure she was not on the phone for help. I saw the girl was not on the phone, and I could not bring myself to kill her."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Eerily calm and seemingly unaffected, Matthew Hoffman is captured on this surveillance video. It was in the early morning hours Hoffman was inside a Mt. Vernon Wal-Mart shopping for items to dispose of the bodies of two women, a child, and a family dog.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: "I grabbed the knife that I had put down on the nightstand and stabbed the woman on the bed through her back twice. I chased the other woman down and stabbed her a couple times in the chest."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bodies were located in a wooded area inside of garbage bags in a hollow tree.
GRACE: He did tree trimming and was an outdoorsman?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He takes his time choosing the right tarps and garbage bags.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: "After a while I came to the conclusion that I was going to dispose of the bodies and burn the house down. I looked around the house to make sure no one was there. Even if I did not take anything there was a certain amount of excitement in being in someone else`s home without them being there.
"I was looking of anything of value that could be carried out easily, i.e. money, jewelry, et cetera. I did not find anything of any real value. I was getting ready to leave as I had been there approximately an hour but someone pulled into the driveway. I was back in the bedrooms when she entered the house and was unable to exit without breaking a window and trying to jump out.
"I had brought my knife for a certain amount of intimidation in case I ran into someone and needed to make an escape. When she made her way back into the bedrooms, I confronted her and made her get onto the bed lying face down. I believe that we were in her bedroom. I had a blackjack. I was going to try and knock her out. I hit her a couple of times in the head but this would not knock her out. It was not doing the job and I started panicking.
"The next thing I knew her friend came into the bedroom. I have no idea when she got there, what she was doing there and how she gained access. The other woman yelled at me. There was now two to deal with and I did not know what to do. I grabbed the knife that I had put down on the nightstand and stabbed the woman on the bed through her back twice.
"I chased the other woman down and stabbed her a couple of times in the chest. Instead of running out of the house she ran into another bedroom. I believe this bedroom was for a girl due to the contents of the room. I then went back to the other bedroom where the first woman was located and stabbed her a couple more times. I could tell that both women were now dead.
"I did not enter the house to kill those people. I did not know a single one of them. I did not know their names and I did not know who all lived at that house. I chose the house to break into because there was not any close neighbors and I noticed that the garage door was ajar.
"I chose the house the day before. I did not plan for any of this to happen. I did not want to kill anyone and I tried to just knock the first woman out so that I would be able to escape. This was not working. A second woman showed up and things quickly spiraled out of control. They kept escalating and I was panicking. I only chose to process the bodies to make their disposal easier."
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls for those of you just joining us. This 30-year-old tree trimmer, Matthew Hoffman, accused of breaking into a home after surveilling it overnight outside in a sleeping bag. Says he went in to burglarize the home but he went in when the home was full of people, ended up killing three -- the mother, the little brother, the neighbor, the family dog -- all in his twisted effort to molest the 13- year-old girl. Later found alive, bound and gagged in another home.
Don`t you just hate it, Stacy Kaiser? You`re a psychotherapist out there in L.A. Don`t you just hate it when some neighbor barges in on your murder spree and just ruins the whole thing? That`s what he sounded like in his confession.
What kind of a mind is that, Stacy?
STACY KAISER, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: I mean, first of all, I don`t believe a word he`s saying. If somebody is going to kill and molest, they`re certainly going to lie. But I think there`s more to it than that. It literally sounds like whatever his master plan was ruined and he was so upset that he got even more enraged and more violent.
GRACE: I want to go to Dr. Howard Oliver. Dr. Oliver, former deputy medical examiner, now forensic pathologist, joining us out of L.A.
Doctor, could you explain what it must have been like to somehow compress these bodies. How do you do that to a human body?
Let me see the tree trunk, Liz -- to force it to fit into a hollow tree? And how long do you think this creep had taken to find just the right hiding spot down a hollow tree?
And think about it -- to the lawyers on the panel, what kind of a mind -- you see a hollow tree and you think, hey, that`s a great place for three dead bodies?
What about it, Doctor?
HOWARD OLIVER, FMR. DEPUTY MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, he was a tree trimmer so he knew about this tree in advance. And when he perpetrated the crime, I`m sure he then used the tree. The crime scene must have been exceedingly bloody.
The only way he could hoist those bodies up in the tree he would have had to dismembered all the bodies so that he could handle them. It would be -- it would have been way too heavy for even a strong man to lift those bodies up the tree. So he probably dismembered the bodies at the house, probably in a bathtub or in the rooms.
The entire house where the crime -- where the rooms where the crimes took place had to be exceedingly bloody. Anybody with limited amount of ability to butcher a mammal would have been able to dismember this without breaking the bones or sawing the bones. They would have simply dismembered them.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, were they dismembered?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": They were. He confessed that he processed the bodies in the bathroom.
GRACE: Was that his words? He processed them?
CASAREZ: Those were his words. He processed the bodies in the bathroom before loading them in the vehicle, in the plastic bags, and then driving out to where he ultimately put them in the tree.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Leslie in Michigan. Hi, Leslie.
LESLIE, CALLER FROM MICHIGAN: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
LESLIE: I just wanted to know what sick, deranged person would do that to somebody? That`s just gross.
GRACE: You know what, Stephanie -- excuse me, Leslie, I`m sure that the lawyers will say that he was insane. I don`t think he was insane. Look at the methodical planning that went into this.
Show me the video of him at Wal-Mart. There you go. You could have passed right by him, Leslie in Michigan, and never known this guy had or is about to commit mass murder, a murder spree all in his sick effort to molest a 13-year-old neighbor girl.
What kind of a sick mind, I would think a psychopath, Jean, someone or a sociopath that does not feel any empathy for others that cannot even relate to their suffering.
CASAREZ: And you know, Nancy, here`s why he could not have a mental defense. As part of his confession, he said after I committed these murders, I looked around and I said, what have I done? This is terrible, what I have done. So he knew exactly what he had done.
GRACE: And also, Jean, the way he refers to dismembering the bodies as processing them.
What about that, Darryl Cohen?
DARRYL COHEN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, this guy is the worst of the worst. How can he do what he did? There is no way to explain it. Psychopath, sociopath. Doesn`t really get it. What it really means is there is no one -- brings back Charles Manson memories.
This guy, there`s no redeeming social value. There`s nothing. I`m sorry he didn`t get the death penalty. But having said that they`ll take care of him.
GRACE: What about it, Giudice?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The legal analysis that his lawyers looked at exactly what we just pointed out, all the preparation, all the planning, and said we don`t have a valid insanity defense. We`d better enter a plea to a non-death penalty sentence. That`s what happened.
GRACE: And speaking of Charles Manson, to tonight`s case alert. High-profile lawyer known as devil`s advocate represented Saddam Hussein, now is going to represent cult leader Charles Manson. He`s going to get a new trial, says him.
Giovanni Di Stefano filing a petition claiming Manson`s rights were violated, claiming he should have been allowed to represent himself and there`s no proof he had anything to do with the Tate murders.
Manson convicted of orchestrating the Helter Skelter murders including the murder of actress Sharon Tate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She still holds the psychological factors by not being able to address in public to us the enormity of the crimes.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Amber Lynn Bracci, the teen mother, investigators say is responsible for her son Rowan`s death.
AMBER BRACCI, MOTHER WHO ALLEGEDLY KILLED 16-MONTH-OLD INFANT: I may not have been a perfect mother.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Investigators say Bracci admitted she hit her child and the attorney for her boyfriend claims she did it because she thought the boy was possessed.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: According to criminal complaint on January 5th Bracci was at her Ridgeville home with her boyfriend when she put her son to bed. The investigators report states the next morning Bracci heard her son crying.
BRACCI: I went in there and I picked my son up out of bed at 10:30 in the morning. His eyes were closed and he was not responsive.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Bracci called 911. But first, investigators say, she smoked two bowls of marijuana.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Autopsy reports saying the child died of a head injury at the hands of another person. He is said to have had bleeding on his brain.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Bond is denied for a South Carolina mother charged with murder in the death of her 16-month-old son Rowan. Investigators say Bracci admitted she hit her child and the attorney for her boyfriend claims she did it because she thought the boy was possessed.
Police say she also admits waiting two hours to seek medical attention for her son. The alleged assault on the child also leading to homicide charges against Bracci`s 20-year-old boyfriend, John Weaver.
Prosecutors say Weaver was in the home during the alleged abuse. But Weaver`s attorney successfully argued for bond for his client saying the child`s mother is wrongfully pointing the finger at his client.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Straight out to Michael Brown, anchor/reporter, South Carolina Radio.
Michael, what can you tell us?
MICHAEL BROWN, ANCHOR/REPORTER, SOUTH CAROLINA RADIO NETWORK: Well, as you just heard, the mother, Amber Bracci, 19-year-old mother, she was arrested on January 14th but she was denied bond and the reason why she was denied bond is because they`re saying she`s a flight risk because she said she was going to Florida to see her mother.
And then her boyfriend, John Weaver, he was 20 years old, at the home at the time of the child`s death, when she slapped the child because she said he was possessed. He was -- his bond was set at $ $50,000 and he was released on February 4th.
GRACE: I just got in my hands the infant Rowan preliminary autopsy report, literally. Closed head injury, multiple subgaleal -- that`s of your scalp -- contusions, subdural hemorrhages, thin layer -- hemorrhages. These are all hemorrhages and bruises to the brain. Swelling of the brain.
That must have been some blow. Optic nerve chief hemorrhage which means the baby was shaken and the eyes -- go back -- the orbs go back and forth with the pressure of the shaking and actually rupture the baby`s eyes as part of the shaken baby syndrome.
This little baby, baby Rowan, just 16 months old, he looks like a baby doll sitting on a shelf in the toy section, so beautiful. Never had a chance.
His mother, Jean Casarez, saying she had to beat him to death because he was possessed.
CASAREZ: She had to do it. That`s right. And what she is saying, and she`s admitting she did this, but she says she has a very good reason. She had to do it several days after that, the eyes sort of went back in the head, she waited a couple of hours, smoked a little pot, then called police, and he was taken to the hospital where he later died that afternoon.
GRACE: You know, Liz, I want you to pull up that sound of the mom screaming about not having her baby. Do you recall that? I remember it very, very well.
While you`re pulling that up let me go out to Jennifer in Ohio. Hi, Jennifer.
JENNIFER, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi, Nancy. I love your show.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your --
JENNIFER: I watch it every night.
GRACE: Bless you. Take a look at this baby. He`s just absolutely beautiful. What`s your question, love?
JENNIFER: My question is, didn`t any of her friends or family or anything see the detachment from her and her child?
GRACE: You know that`s a -- that`s a great question. Because you don`t wake up one day and say your baby is possessed.
What about it, Stacy Kaiser?
KAISER: I agree 100 percent. There`s a few things here that I`m looking at. One is it`s very typical for teen parents to abuse their children. And the second piece of it is, a person who doesn`t have anger management issues, violent tendencies, they wouldn`t shake their baby.
If they thought something was wrong, they`d call for help, they`d call a preacher or a priest, they`d call for friends. They wouldn`t be violently killing and abusing their child.
GRACE: Take a listen to mommy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRACCI: I went in there and I picked my son up out of bed at 10:30 in the morning and he was limp. His eyes were closed. And he was not responsive. I love my son with all my heart. I may not have been a perfect mother. There are things that I regret.
We will never, ever have Rowan back. You could have come and you could have woken me up. And because you chose not to, you will rot for this. I promise you.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Not a perfect mother? According to police she beat the baby. She shook the baby to death. And there she blames it all on the boyfriend?
Jean Casarez, explain to me that reason.
CASAREZ: You know, I think we`ve got two defenses here. First of all there`s someone else that was charged in all of this, her boyfriend, John Weaver. He was charged. And it`s interesting because the statute is not only aggravated child abuse, the act of abusing the child, but the omission of getting help when you see something is happening.
GRACE: So, Jean, bottom line, are they saying she did the murder or he did the murder? It`s my understanding one of them was just in the home when the murder occurred.
CASAREZ: I think the allegation is that she did it and the allegation is that he knew what was happening but neglected to go get aid.
GRACE: That`s my understanding. Then explain that statement where she is screaming at the boyfriend.
CASAREZ: Well, I think she`s just trying to point fingers. I think she`s -- we have two defenses at this point. One, that he was possessed so I had to do it. Number two, you should have done something.
GRACE: Yes, you know what? To you, Raymond Giudice, Darryl Cohen and Christina Corebob (ph) joining us out of D.C. Those two really don`t fit together. You can`t drive out to the police station and go, oh, yes, my little baby, the beautiful baby boy I gave birth to, yes, he`s possessed so I murdered him.
No, you can`t do that and say the boyfriend is responsible. What about it, Raymond Giudice?
GIUDICE: You`re absolutely right and Jean correctly points out this statute which is not a death penalty statute they are currently charged with, you could either -- violated by causing the injury or failing to get the harm -- or the medical help.
GRACE: Darryl?
COHEN: It seems to me, Nancy, that what they`re doing by giving this $50,000 bond to her ex-boyfriend, they are going to squeeze him. They want his testimony and there`s going to be a plea deal but he`s going to be our main witness. Obviously she can`t have it both ways.
GRACE: Back to Michael Brown from South Carolina Radio joining us out of Charleston.
Michael Brown, I don`t understand why this is not a murder charge. Explain to me what`s going on there.
BROWN: Well, the boyfriend, John Weaver, he was actually released on bond but he was charged with homicide by child abuse. But the reason why he was released his attorney said the only thing he did wrong was he was smoking pot with the mother for the two hours in between the 911 phone call and when EMS arrived to pick up the child to take them to the medical university.
GRACE: Are you telling me his defense is, he didn`t call 911 because he was busy smoking pot?
BROWN: Yes. Yes. That`s what the attorney is saying. The only thing he did wrong is that they were just smoking marijuana in the house.
GRACE: What about it --
BROWN: In South Carolina -- in South Carolina, the law is when you`re in the home and there is a criminal act involved in that home and you do not render any aid, you`re guilty.
GRACE: What about it, Christina?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s just sick that you could sit and smoke a bunch of weed while a child is being abused and perhaps even murdered and you do nothing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRACCI: We will never ever have Rowan back. You could have come and you could have woken me up. And because you chose not to, you will rot for this. I promise you.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The child died of a head injury at the hands of another person.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Bracci allegedly claims she hit her 16-month- old son Rowan because she believed he was possessed.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Bracci stressed she was innocent.
BRACCI: I understand that someone has -- they`ve got to put the blame on someone for this. And I`m willing to sit in that cell.
We will never ever have Rowan back. You could have come and you could have woken me up and because you chose not to, you will rot for this. I promise you.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Hey, mommy, where are the tears? And I noticed in court she`s saying, I know the police have got to put the blame on somebody. As if the child did it to himself somehow? As if it were an accident? He`s got multiple contusions to the head.
Very quickly, Dr. Oliver, it`s impossible for this child to have fallen and gotten this many blows to the head. Physically impossible.
OLIVER: Yes, you`re right. It is physically impossible. He was -- he was shaken violently and he was beaten on the head several times.
GRACE: With me, Dr. Howard Oliver out of L.A.
To Cynthia in Tennessee. Hi, Cynthia, what`s your question?
CYNTHIA, CALLER FROM TENNESSEE: Well, you know, I just found out about this. I was on Facebook and a friend of mine sent me this about this woman who had repeatedly hit her 16-month-old child because she thought he was possessed.
Well, my question is, I mean I`m a Pentecostal -- from Pentecostal background. And you know, they have some beliefs and possessions there, but never in my life ever heard of anyone thinking that their child is possessed.
So my question is, what in the world is her religious background?
GRACE: I don`t know that she really even had a religious background.
Michael Brown, did she? And particularly what demon did she say was possessing him? (INAUDIBLE)?
BROWN: As far as the possessed comment in what she says, as we know of right now, that`s all we know, is that she just said she slapped her child and the child abuse was caused because she thought he was possessed. So as far as her religion, we`re unaware of that.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Marine Lance Corporal Steven Szwydek, 20, Warfordsburg, Pennsylvania. Killed Iraq. On the second tour, awarded Purple Heart, Marine Corps Achievement Medal, Combat Action Ribbon.
Buried at Arlington. Loved God, country, family, hunting, military history. Leaves behind parents, Mike and Nancy. Sister Stephanie, brothers, Gregg and Corey.
Steven Szwydek, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.
END
