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Nancy Grace
Teen Mother Kills Newborn Preemie With Scissors
Aired February 11, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEAN CASAREZ, GUEST HOST: We begin tonight with breaking news out of California. A close-knit rural community is in shock tonight after investigators make a gruesome discovery on farmland near Stockton, California. There, buried in a shallow grave, the body of a tiny newborn girl, the preemie not even full term, attacked, murdered, prosecutors say, right after her birth.
Police zero in on the prime suspect. No, it`s not a baby snatcher or a woman desperate to be a mother targeting this newborn. No, police say, it`s the newborn`s own mother. And she`s just a teenager. Yes, she was scared. She was scared to tell her parents she was going to have a baby. Yes, she concealed her pregnancy. Yes, she`s only 17. But when prosecutors say she took out a pair of scissors to kill that baby, they say this is first-degree murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A shocking discovery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sheriff investigators found the baby in this hole, which is only about a foot deep.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say a 17-year-old teen mom gave birth to a premature newborn girl, but then killed her with scissors in a bathroom and buried her in a shallow grave close to the home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The weapon that was used in (INAUDIBLE) complaint is a scissors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities say Patricia Lopez likely gave birth Monday. Tuesday night, went to a hospital for medical treatment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had admitted a 17-year-old who had recently given birth who had a miscarriage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators determined the mother buried the infant girl after allegedly killing it shortly after birth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Melissa Drexler killing her baby at the 1997 Lacy (ph) High School prom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We found a newborn baby inside the toilet.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Mommy gives birth and leaves the baby to die in the toilet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: Good evening. I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session" on the truTV network, in for Nancy Grace. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. OK, she`s only 17, in high school. She was scared to tell her parents she was pregnant. But prosecutors say after she gave birth in the family`s home bathroom and pulled out those scissors, they say her next acts were murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve learned that she kept the pregnancy from her parents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was in this trailer that the 17-year-old girl had the baby. And it was in this hole next to a field behind the trailer that the baby was buried.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grave just one foot deep.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The infant was born just in the last day or so, and the mother went to San Joaquin General Hospital for care after delivery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When it was born, it was crying or making noises. To keep that from her parents hearing it, she allegedly had killed the baby in the restroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Patricia Lopez facing charges of first-degree murder and child abuse resulting in death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said the baby was deformed, didn`t have hands and feet, and so she flushed it down the toilet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The teenage couple went into this motel and inside room 220, gave birth to a baby boy, an infant who was later found dead in a dumpster next to the motel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: We are taking your calls live tonight. Let`s go straight out to Nikki Medoro. She is reporter, Newstalk 1530 KFBK in Sacramento, California. Nikki, what happened?
NIKKI MEDORO, NEWSTALK 1530 KFBK (via telephone): Well, we don`t know much about why Patricia Lopez would have taken scissors, allegedly, and killed her newborn infant. Of course, as was mentioned, she was only about five to six months pregnant, had been concealing this pregnancy and allegedly killed it, put it in a plastic bag and put it in a shallow grave about a foot deep on her parents` property.
Now, we do know that she is being charged as an adult, although she is only 17 years old. And again, she is being charged with murder, child abuse resulting in death. Her family was there. The same family that she says she hid this pregnancy from appeared in court with her, stood by her side. But the judge still denied bail. She is being held at juvenile hall.
CASAREZ: All right, now, Nikki, I have to ask you a horrible question. You`re out there in Sacramento. You are talking, you are hearing all the information that you can hear. Do we know exactly what she did with those scissors in the bathroom of her parents`s home?
MEDORO: You know, police are keeping very tightlipped on the details surrounding exactly how this baby was killed. They won`t even confirm whether or not the baby was technically alive when she gave birth, although that is where they appear to be leaning, is that the baby was alive. Of course, a 5 to 6-month-old gestation is not full term, very far from it. So the baby may have had medical complications. We`re talking about a baby that would be the size of an ear of corn. And for a 17-year-old, it may not look to be viable. And she may have just had a mental breakdown and used the scissors to kill it.
CASAREZ: Well, Nikki, let me tell you this, OK? Prosecutors are going to be charging first-degree murder. To have a murder case, a baby has to be born alive. And police have confirmed with us, we want to tell everybody, that that baby was alive when it was born.
Out to Stacey Newman, NANCY GRACE producer, joining us in New York. Stacey, do we have any idea of what the scissors looked like that prosecutors say she used?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: We don`t. As we`ve just heard, Jean, cops are keeping tight-lipped. But I want to tell you how cops are even alerted to this to begin with. They say the day after Patricia gave birth, hospital officials realized she had complications from childbirth, but there was no baby at the hospital. Where was this child? They immediately called police. Police came to the hospital, and after extensive questioning, went out to the property, Jean, and found this baby in a shallow grave.
CASAREZ: All right. So Stacey Newman, what you`re saying is that the mother in this case actually took herself to the hospital?
NEWMAN: Yes, she did, Jean. She found her way to the hospital, got medical treatment for the complications from childbirth. But again, where was the baby? They had to call cops immediately, and that`s how this case unfolded.
CASAREZ: All right. We`re taking your calls live. Teri in Pennsylvania. Hi, Teri.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Jean. Actually, my question was how they had known there was a baby. But I also would like to make a comment. And you know, we have all these teen pregnancy shows on television now, and we`ve had so many of these cases lately. I wish somebody could figure out a way to force these shows to put the information for these girls to be able to take their baby to a safe haven instead of doing things like this. I mean, this is just atrocious.
CASAREZ: Well, Teri, let`s talk about the safe haven law because California definitely has a safe haven law. It is in place. And we know that she took herself to the hospital. But within 72 hours of the birth of your baby, you can take it to any police station, fire station, hospital, church, where there are active partitioners (SIC) there that can help take that baby. You can surrender that child within those three days of birth. California has that law, as do the majority of states.
I want to go out tonight to a very special guest, Dr. Joshua Perper joining us. He is the medical examiner -- the chief medical examiner of Broward County, Florida. Dr. Perper, it`s so good to see you. Such a horrible, horrible thing that`s happened. Here`s what I want to know. This little baby that was 5 to 6 months old -- where is it in its point of development when it was born?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BROWARD COUNTY: Well, usually, babies, in order to be viable, they have to be more than 24 weeks. So 24 weeks is about six months. And if they are weighing more than 800 grams, then they survive. If they are less than 500 grams or 500 grams and more, only 60 percent survive.
So there`s a question. What is the size of the baby, and what is the weight of the baby in order to determine whether the baby are viable. In addition, premature babies or preemies who are less than the 37 weeks which are required for the full-term baby develop a lot of complication. And in this case, basically, also we don`t know if the baby was born alive. Again, the pathologist can determine this by finding out whether the lungs were expanded, whether there was any kind of substance in the stomach, and so on.
CASAREZ: And Patricia Lopez is being held in a juvenile facility right now. Prosecutors say she will be charged as an adult. They are not disclosing the cause of death, but she is being arrested on first-degree murder, charged as an adult.
Dr. Perper, if this little baby was -- and they`re saying 22 to 26 weeks old. So you`re saying it could be viable in the 25 to 26 weeks old?
PERPER: If a baby is more than 24 weeks old, it can be viable, but his chances are not great. The description of baby who are 21 weeks old and survived but is extremely rare. So 24 is usually the age, the fetal age, which beyond that, they -- some of the babies survive. Still, they have a high mortality, and many of them develop a lot of complication because the organs are not fully developed.
CASAREZ: But could that baby have lived if she had taken it to a hospital? She took herself to the hospital.
PERPER: If there was more than 24 weeks, yes, there is such a possibility. But again, it depends on the fact that the baby didn`t have any other major abnormality. And in this -- indeed, an autopsy would disclose such abnormalities.
CASAREZ: All right, back out to Nikki Medoro, reporter, Newstalk 1530 KFBK, joining us from Sacramento. Talk to us about this shallow grave because I`ve watched all of the video that I can find on it, and I see a shovel that is very close to that shallow grave.
MEDORO: Yes, it was not very deep at all. Like I had mentioned, it was only about a foot deep, and a stone`s throw away from the trailer home that Patricia lived in with her family and siblings. She was the middle daughter. There was three daughters in the family. And apparently, she was working on the ranch where the trailer home was located. And we don`t know if maybe working on the ranch may have spurred the premature birth. But apparently, she stepped away after giving birth to the baby and allegedly killing it and putting it in that plastic bag, and dug a very, very shallow hole and maybe wanted to find it later on. You would think that she would do a better job of burying it if she really wanted it hidden. It was very shallow.
CASAREZ: Nikki, the claim is that her two sisters and her mother and her father, they lived all together and they never knew she was pregnant?
MEDORO: Right. There had been mention -- someone that worked on the ranch with them, a boy that was very good friends with Patricia Lopez, said that they had even had a conversation about her weight, that he had noticed that she was putting on weight and they had talked about diet. So you know, six months pregnant, a 17-year-old, never been -- hopefully, never been pregnant before, maybe wasn`t showing as much as someone who`s had previous children. It`s cold outside. You wear sweaters. It`s not inconceivable that someone could hide a five to six-months-along pregnancy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 17-year-old allegedly had killed the baby inside the bathroom, put it in a plastic bag and buried it here in this hole. Who knows what`s in a 17-year-old`s mind. But yes, she was able to hide this pregnancy from her parents.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cops say teen mom Patricia Lopez sought treatment at a local hospital Tuesday night, but medical personnel soon discover she may have given birth to a baby and called investigators.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She kept the pregnancy from her parents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was in this trailer that the 17-year-old girl had the baby. And it was in this hole next to a field behind the trailer that the baby was buried.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grave just one foot deep. Police say they believe the little girl was, in fact, alive, at the time of birth, but believe Lopez killed the baby in the bathroom shortly after birth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The weapon that was used, alleged in the complaint, is a scissors.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When it was born, it was crying or making noises, and in an effort for her to keep that from her parents or her parents hearing it, she allegedly had killed the baby in the restroom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: Did you hear that? Did you hear that? That was law enforcement in the Sacramento area saying -- and this is near Stockton, California -- that the baby was crying and that gave motive to what prosecutors say happened next, that she murdered her baby.
I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace tonight, from "In Session." Thank you for joining us. Out to the callers. Diane in Florida. Hi, Diane.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Jean. It`s nice to talk to you.
CASAREZ: Thank you. Thank you for calling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did the teen mom ever consider adoption instead of killing?
CASAREZ: You know, it`s a good question, and if we look at the facts, it just doesn`t look like it. Nikki Medoro, what is the truth here? Do we know anything about her? She was a senior in high school and she lived at home with her parents, right?
MEDORO: Yes, she was going to school and apparently working on the ranch with her family. We don`t know if she was considering adoption. It doesn`t seem if a teenager was hiding a pregnancy that she was going through all the options, although, you know, police definitely would like more attention being placed on the safe haven law, that even if she wanted to hide it from her parents, she could have taken that infant and gone directly to the hospital or a police station or a firehouse and dropped that baby off. And she would not be facing the charges she is now.
CASAREZ: Nikki, do authorities know who the father of this child is?
MEDORO: They do. They have been communicating with him, but they will not identify him. We don`t know if it`s someone that worked on the ranch or someone who went to Tracy (ph) West High School with Patricia Lopez. But they do know who he is. We don`t know if he knew that she was pregnant and if she might have been hiding it from him, as well.
CASAREZ: And we don`t know his age, and that could be a concern legally. We`ll get into that in a second.
There have been a number of mothers that have discarded their babies. You`ve seen the cases on Nancy`s show. Look at this. Jessica Blackham -- this was Monday night. This was the same day that this girl, Patricia, gave birth. But Jessica Blackham gave birth to a preemie in a toilet, arena during a circus. She left the baby to drown, reportedly told a psychologist she blacked out and didn`t remember giving birth. Now, she`s only been charged with aggravated child abuse at this point.
Melissa Drexler -- that`s the prom mom. Remember her? Gave birth in the bathroom during a school prom, put the newborn in the trash can, returned to the dance. She pleaded guilty to aggravated manslaughter, sentenced to 15 years, released after three years.
Amy Grossberg gave birth in a motel room. The boyfriend threw the newborn into the dumpster. The autopsy showed baby died of head fractures and shaken baby syndrome.
And we cannot forget Katie McCoy. She gave birth in the dorm room, wrapped the body in a towel, put it in a gym bag and hid it in the utility room.
Let`s go to the lawyers. Susan Moss, family law attorney, joining us tonight from New York. And Meg Strickler, international law attorney, criminal defense attorney joining us out of Atlanta.
Susan Moss, all of those mothers I feel are different from this. This was the affirmative act, prosecutors say, of using scissors. That`s the deadly weapon, Susan.
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: If she stabbed that kid, she`ll face a first-degree murder bid! You see, it`s all going to depend upon what the medical examiner said. If she just took the scissors and cut the umbilical cord, yes, she`s going to get a lot of sympathy and have very, very little jail time. But if she took those scissors and did something to mutilate that poor infant, then that`s what she`s going to receive, probably life in jail!
CASAREZ: But Meg Strickler, prosecutors have preliminarily charged her with first-degree murder. They know what happened. They wouldn`t have her in jail right now if they didn`t know how the baby died.
MEG STRICKLER, INTERNATIONAL ATTORNEY: It sounds like they have some information that none of us are privy to. But I do question the psychological basis of what went on here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The second shocking side to the story. How did the parents not know? A family friend said the father just thought the 17- year-old was gaining weight. In fact, they discussed a diet. Right now, that 17-year-old is being held in the county`s juvenile detention center.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: San Joaquin investigators believe a 17-year-old girl gave birth to a premature baby girl. It happened inside the family mobile home. And even though she was nearly three months early, detectives believe the preemie was alive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry to say, this is just sad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 17-year-old allegedly had killed the baby inside the bathroom, put it in the plastic bag and buried it here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I guess she was scared to tell her mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now Lopez facing up to life behind bars, if convicted.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez, in for Nancy Grace tonight, from "In Session." Patricia Lopez, 17 years old, senior in high school -- authorities are saying she didn`t tell her family she was pregnant. She was scared. She didn`t want them to know. They say that she gave birth in the bathroom of the family home, and the baby cried. And then that`s when the scissors came out. That`s what prosecutors are saying. And then taking the baby, putting it in a plastic bag. And you saw the land out there. You see, the family lives on a ranch. It`s a ranch in central California, Holt, California, near Stockton. And that is the beginning of her legal troubles because she`s now in juvenile hall on first-degree murder.
We`re taking your calls live. Ellen in Indiana. Hi, Ellen. Do we have Ellen in Indiana?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You have Jaquanda in Dayton, Ohio.
CASAREZ: Hi, Jaquanda in Ohio.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you?
CASAREZ: I`m good.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just wanted to ask a question. Could you tell me, is it possible, does anybody know how many years the 17-year-old Lopez girl is facing?
CASAREZ: How many years? I can say that very easily. She`s facing life in prison. To Meg Strickler, international law attorney joining us out of New York. The U.S. Supreme Court has said that a 17-year-old cannot be eligible for the death penalty, that it is too young of a person, it is cruel and unusual punishment. But this girl facing life.
STRICKLER: That`s correct. And I would hope, as a defense attorney, we`d find a lot more information about what happened in this case. I really worry about how this is being depicted. This is a girl who`s just 17 years old. And she had a baby, like you said, the size of a corn on the cob, two pounds -- only two pounds. They look very mutant-like. And I don`t think the lungs were fully developed. So how did the baby actually make any crying noises?
There`s a lot more going on. She probably got the scissors out to cut the umbilical cord because otherwise, you`re going to keep having things going on there. And that`s probably why she did have some complications here. So I think she wasn`t thinking straight because, once again, also, when you have a baby, your hormones are all messed up. She`s 17. She`s got hormones anyway because she`s a teenager. But then she`s having a baby prematurely. There`s a lot more going on there. I don`t think this is first-degree murder. This is manslaughter only.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say the 17-year-old mother gave birth in the bathroom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother went to San Joaquin General Hospital for care after delivery. Investigators were led back to the trailer in Holt and found the baby.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A shocking discovery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sheriff investigators found the baby in this hole, which is only about a foot deep.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say a 17-year-old teen mom gave birth to her premature newborn girl, but then killed her with scissors in the bathroom and buried her in a shallow grave close to the home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The weapon that was used alleged in the complaint is a scissors.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The authorities say Patricia Lopez likely gave birth Monday. Tuesday night went to a hospital for medical treatment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They had admitted a 17-year-old who had recently given birth who had a miscarriage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators determined the mother buried the infant girl after allegedly killing it shortly after birth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Melissa Drexler killing her baby at the 1997 Lacey High School prom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We found a newborn baby inside the toilet.
NANCY GRACE, HLN ANCHOR: Mommy gives birth and leaves the baby to die in the toilet.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JEAN CASAREZ, HLN CORRESPONDENT: I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session" on the TruTV Network in for Nancy Grace.
The issue is not that a high school senior got pregnant. The issue is not that she gave birth. The issue is not that she was too scared to tell her parents. The issue, according to prosecutors, is that she took out scissors after she gave birth and ended the life of this baby that according to authorities could have survived.
I want to go out to Nikki Medoro. She`s a reporter of News Talk 1530 KFBK in Sacramento.
Start from the beginning. Everything you know to this point.
NIKKI MEDORO, NEWS TALK 1530 KFBK REPORTER (via telephone): Well, at the beginning was that on Monday night, Patricia Lopez who`s a 17- year-old Tracy`s West High School student apparently gave birth to a baby. She had been five to six months pregnant. Gave birth prematurely. And according to prosecutors, they believe that she took some scissors and killed the baby in the bathroom of her parent`s trailer home in Holt, which is near Stockton, California.
She then went outside of her parent`s property and buried it in a one-foot-deep grave, and then went to the hospital the following day. The hospital was treating her for complications related to childbirth or a miscarriage, and that is when they notified San Joaquin Sheriff County investigators, who talked to Patricia and learned the gruesome details.
CASAREZ: OK, Nikki, do you know how many bathrooms that home has?
MEDORO: Well, it`s a trailer home. I`m not anticipating it having more than one, maybe two.
CASAREZ: Right. Right.
MEDORO: So maybe, it was -- a trailer home, it`s a double wide, it`s not that big. And she probably wanted it to be a secret. She`s been hiding this pregnancy for five to six months, and she was trying to keep it quiet and she had the delivery in the privacy of her own bathroom --
CASAREZ: But here`s the thing, Nikki. You said Monday night, she had the baby Monday night. You know, you go into the bathroom. I mean, we don`t have to get into it, right? How long a person stays in the bathroom, but you go in and you come out. She had to be in there for a while. Weren`t there some red flags? I mean, how many family members do we know were in there at the same time in the home?
MEDORO: Well, we don`t know how many people were at home at the time. The family consists of the parents -- the father, the mother and three children. She was the middle daughter.
It`s horrifying to think of a 17-year-old child alone in the bathroom giving birth for the very first time and having this premature baby, and then allegedly making this gruesome decision to kill it.
CASAREZ: Stacey Newman, NANCY GRACE producer, what more can you tell us?
STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Well, Jean, consider this. The fact that she went through such great lengths to hide this pregnancy for six months, but she didn`t seem to go through such great lengths to hide the baby in the backyard.
I mean, this hole has been described as no bigger than a bowling ball, really. And in this video we showed you earlier, I even saw a shovel. Was that the shovel that she used to dig up this grave?
CASAREZ: Yes, think about it. Think about it. Prosecutors are saying that she dug that grave, that little hole, right there, that you were seeing, and there`s the shovel. So after she gives birth, she goes out and does this and the facts are still coming in about this case. It`s still very new.
I want to go out to Steve Kardian, former police detective, joining us tonight from New York. He is a self-defense expert and lead instructor at Defend University.
If you were processing that crime scene, according to California law, obviously, it has intent to kill it, it`s an intentional act of taking someone`s life.
How are you going to process that scene and what evidence are you going to collect?
STEVE KARDIAN, FORMER POLICE DETECTIVE: Well, they`re going to process it very carefully, Jean. They`re going to try and find out how this family structure broke down. Now we look at a pair of scissors and we see that a pair of scissors is not a weapon of choice, but rather a weapon of opportunity. And it`s likely that when this child came out preemie, not looking like what she perceives as a baby, that she completely freaked out, wanted to terminate it, wanted to end it.
And unfortunately, we`ve got a murder one. I don`t think it`s going to stick. I think we`re going to see a manslaughter out of this at the end of the day. But it must be pretty violent what occurred to that child for them to consider a murder one right now at her age of 17.
CASAREZ: Joey Jackson, defense attorney extraordinaire out of New York joining us tonight.
Joey, we got another issue, all right? Because there`s a father to this baby. She`s a minor, all right? If he is older, much older, we don`t know, there`s an issue of statutory rape.
JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY EXTRAORDINAIRE: There could be potentially, Jean. And of course, we don`t know yet. And that`s speculative. But I`m very concerned about the district attorney and their approach yet. They come out and they say we don`t have all the evidence, we don`t have all the information, but we`re going to charge first-degree murder.
Shouldn`t you first say we`re investigating, we`ll determine that before you make an assessment to that? That`s number one. Number two, Jean, every life is precious. But we don`t know that there`s a life here. Dr. Perper said 24 weeks, is there viability, is there not? That will be determined.
And finally, Jean, are we going to treat this person, this girl, Ms. Lopez, as Charles Manson? We`re talking about a shock, a confused, a distraught 17-year-old girl. Why are we putting her in the category of a mass murderer? Of someone who does something premeditated. She panicked, she was shocked, she freaked out completely, and I think it`s totally inappropriate and unwise for the district attorney to assess the case as they have and to pursue it as such.
CASAREZ: But Susan Moss, Family Law attorney joining us from New York.
OK, you panic. The baby cries, the family doesn`t know, the baby is -- you panic. But, still, don`t you know what you`re doing when you pick up the scissors?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Oh, no, oh, no, if a D.A. comes out and in first blush says I`m going for first-degree murder of a 17-year-old, you know there`s something there. Seventeen or not, you don`t mutilate a tot. There must have been something very gruesome at their site. There must have been holes.
And first of all, in terms of the viability, if sounds were heard, if cries were heard, then this child was born alive. Absolutely at 22 months -- 22 weeks, the child may not survive, but the child will be born alive. And that is all you need to support a murder one charge.
CASAREZ: Lillian Glass, psychologist, joining us from Los Angeles, body language expert, author of "Toxic People."
She had two sisters, a mother, a father, they all lived in that small home together. I guess it can be done, but how do you conceal a pregnancy when you`re so close to your family? You`re sitting and watching TV, you`re eating breakfast, you`re there with them all the time.
LILLIAN GLASS, PH.D., PSYCHOLOGIST AND BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Absolutely. And the fact that the child was crying, she wanted to muffle the cry. She didn`t want the parents to hear. She didn`t want anybody in the family to hear. And that is disconcerting.
She has no compassion. She has no sensitivity. And this is just unconscionable, and she deserves what she`s going to get.
CASAREZ: Taking your calls live. Candace in North Carolina.
Hi, Candace.
CANDACE, NORTH CAROLINA RESIDENT (via telephone): Hi, Jean. Thanks for taking my call.
CASAREZ: You`re welcome.
CANDACE: I have a comment and a question.
First of all, I wanted to say, you know, being that it`s legal to have a late-term abortion, I think this is extreme. And also the fact that could the girl have possibly accidentally cut the baby while cutting the umbilical cord?
CASAREZ: You know, it`s a good question, Candace.
To Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner of Broward County, Florida, joining us tonight.
Don`t you think that for prosecutors to bring the charges they have that they know what the autopsy results are? Because cutting the umbilical cord may be missing a little bit. That is something that`s far different from what they are charging as murder.
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BROWARD COUNTY, FLORIDA: Well, I don`t know the prosecutor in this case, but obviously any responsible prosecutor will only issue an accusation which is so serious without having adequate grounds. And obviously, in this case, autopsy finding would be extremely important.
CASAREZ: Nikki Medoro, joining us tonight, reporter, News Talk 1530 KFBK.
She`s had an initial court appearance. Now she is in juvenile court. But I understand her mother, her father, her sisters, relatives, the courtroom was filled with support from her family.
MEDORO: Yes, she had about a dozen relatives that came out to show support and her public defender thought that maybe the judge would grant Patricia Lopez some bail and let her go home with her family since she had such a support system, but the judge did deny bail so she remains in juvenile hall on these murder charges.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The girl went to San Joaquin General for help, but the staff there knew something wasn`t right and called police. They were able to find the baby`s body fairly easy and soon after they arrested its mother.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We learned that she kept the pregnancy from her parents.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: It was in this trailer that the 17-year-old girl had the baby. And it was in this hole next to a field behind the trailer that the baby was buried.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The grave just one foot deep.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The infant was born just in the last day or so, and the mother went to San Joaquin General Hospital for care after delivery.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When it was born it was crying or making noises. To keep that from her parents hearing it, she allegedly had killed the baby in the restroom.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Patricia Lopez facing charges of first-degree murder and child abuse resulting in death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said the baby was deformed, didn`t have hands and feet so she flushed it down the toilet.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Teenage couple went to this motel. Inside room 220 gave birth to a baby boy, an infant who was later found dead in a dumpster next to the motel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CASAREZ: I`m Jean Casarez of "In Session" in for Nancy Grace.
Dr. Joshua Perper, I have a question for you that I think could become very important, relevant.
In regard to the blood that would be found in the bathroom of the family home, if someone was trying to cut the umbilical cord and missed or cut too deeply or something versus stab wounds, what would be the different amount of blood in that bathroom?
PERPER: Well, very small amount of blood because the fetus is so -- preemies have a very small amount of blood. So it would be a very small amount of blood which would be fairly easy to clean.
CASAREZ: So then what you`re telling me is in court what is going to be critically important is where that baby was cut or stabbed? Because when I think of scissors, it has to be stab wounds, correct, if they`re saying that that caused the death? They haven`t said that officially yet, but they were saying scissors were the murder weapon.
PERPER: Well, if scissors were the murder weapons, they would have first established that the infant was alive, and second they would have to see, as you said correctly, couples or sets of two stab wounds which would correspond to the two blades of the scissors inside the unfortunate baby`s body.
CASAREZ: Good point. To Angela in Tennessee.
Hi, Angela.
ANGELA, TENNESSEE RESIDENT (via telephone): I have a question. If she needed to seek medical attention right after the baby, is there a possibility that maybe either one of her sisters may have helped her?
CASAREZ: You`re saying -- say that again? If she what?
ANGELA: Since she had -- she went to the hospital to seek medical attention just right after, just a couple of days afterwards. Could either -- would it be a possibility that either one of her sisters may have helped her?
CASAREZ: OK, Stacey Newman, do we know anything as to whether a family member helped her go to the hospital?
Well, we`re not 100 percent sure on that, Jean. But what I do know is, what we`re hearing is she hid this pregnancy from her parents. That doesn`t mean that she hid it from her sisters. I mean, three sisters, you`re very close. Maybe you`re sharing a room together. Maybe the two sisters knew that she was pregnant and maybe provided aid.
CASAREZ: Yes. We don`t know at this point. Very true.
Joey Jackson, defense attorney. OK, there`s another part to all of this, because investigators are saying, prosecutors are alleging that after the baby was dead, she put it in a plastic bag. We have to believe just something around the house. And went out and dug the grave that the baby was put into. This is consciousness of guilt. This is not something that`s good when you`re going before a judge and you want as many mitigating factors as you can find.
JACKSON: It`s certainly a fair point. And, of course, we know consciousness of guilt, to be sort of an admission, based upon the conduct and the attitude and the actions that someone takes, but this cuts both ways, Jean, because it certainly could be that she calmed herself down, she understood at that point after the act was over that something happened and it was horrific and she was going to do this with dignity and therefore carry the baby out. That`s yet to be determined.
But I`m still overwhelmingly concerned about how we go after her for first-degree murder when clearly there was something a amiss in her mind as to the conduct and what she did here.
CASAREZ: All right. To Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist, joining us from Los Angeles.
They say the whole family was at the courthouse for her initial court appearance. Mother, father, sisters, uncles, aunts, everybody. Look at the support there. And she was afraid that she wouldn`t get the support from the family because of the pregnancy?
GLASS: Isn`t that ironic? That`s interesting. And you wonder if there`s guilt involved. Maybe they feel guilty the fact that she couldn`t come to them and that may play a factor, too, in why they`re being very supportive and they also know the consequences.
CASAREZ: True. Very true.
To Ellen in Indiana. Hi, Ellen.
ELLEN, INDIANA RESIDENT (via telephone): Hi, Jean. Thank you.
CASAREZ: Thanks for calling.
ELLEN: You`re such an elegant speaker.
CASAREZ: Thank you.
ELLEN: You ask such great questions.
CASAREZ: Thank you.
ELLEN: I wanted to address the safe -- first of all, we just have to give these teenagers more education. And with the Safe Haven Law that there is, I`m an E.R. nurse, and in Florida, I actually had a baby brought to me. It had been left on the doorstep of a church where she knew people were going to walk into. And she was arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent because a church is not a safe haven. I don`t know if it is in California --
CASAREZ: You know, Ellen, it is, if there are church parishioners there that can take care of it. Ellen, you have told the country tonight, reiterated the Safe Haven Law, and it is in California.
And now to tonight`s "CNN HEROES."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNE MOTLEY HALLUM, CNN HERO NOMINEE: In Guatemala, it`s typical tragically to have hundreds of mudslides. The rains come in downpours. The mountainside will simply give way and collapse. Houses are washed away and people have been killed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): All three die here. They were like my children. The rains came. The mud took them away.
HALLUM: They just live with it and make the best of it, but I say, here are some things you can do. I`m Anne Motley Hallum. I`m helping the people in rural Guatemala protect their families and their fields from the dangers of mudslides.
Pine trees with tap roots hold a mountain together, but the trees are cut for firewood and to make room for the crops. And without realizing it, they`ve taken away their protection.
We started to teach the villagers how to use the trees. We`ll start with little seed bed and we`ll build that, and then we transplant those seedlings on to the mountain slopes. We watch the seeds grow. That`s why we stay for five years. We notice that the mudslides aren`t happening here. We say, all right, you got it. You know how to do this now.
I can go back to areas that were nothing but mudslides and soil erosion, and now I see forests and they`re still there and they`re beautiful.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CASAREZ: A look back at the stories making the headlines this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911, what`s your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We found a baby inside the toilet.
GRACE: Cops zero in on the young mom who leaves her infant boy to die.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jessica Ann Blackham, she claims she didn`t know she was pregnant.
GRACE: Guess what the defense says, she had amnesia.
Joining us right now, the man who claims he is the baby`s father, Jason Jones.
JASON JONES, FATHER: As far as being, her not knowing she was pregnant, that`s a bunch of bull crap. She wrote on her Facebook that she was at one time having morning sickness and a bunch of headaches. And I comment and ask her, was she pregnant? And she told me not to worry about it, that she would take care of it.
GRACE: How is Baby Boy John Doe tonight?
CHIEF TERRI WILFONG, GREENVILLE, SC POLICE DEPT.: He`s doing well. He`s in stable condition. We`re very thankful for that. >
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eerily calm and seemly unaffected, Matthew Hoffman is captured on this surveillance video inside a Mt. Vernon Wal-Mart shopping for items to dispose of the body of two women, child and a family dog. Now we know exactly what happened. According to his confession --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I grabbed the knife that I had put down the night stand and stabbed the woman on the bed through her back, twice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Still no sign of a missing 18-month-old boy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Might have took him. Had to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Josh Davis Jr. just vanished from his home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The child was possibly abducted.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We feel that he was taken.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He can`t reach the doorknob, like he reaches maybe to the bottom but he reach, he can`t turn the doorknob.
GRACE: Well, if he can`t reach the doorknob, then how did he get out?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s what I want to know.
GRACE: Joshua`s parents believe he was abducted.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think he wandered off.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My baby`s out there somewhere. Somebody has him.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CASAREZ: Tonight, let us stop to remember Marine First Lieutenant Donald Ryan McGlothlin, 26 years old from Lebanon, Virginia. He was awarded the Silver Star and Purple Heart. He enlisted after completing his master`s degree in Chemistry at Stanford University.
He lost his life protecting fellow marines under fire. He`s remembered as a true leader and a man of integrity. Six little boys have been named Ryan in his honor. His favorite poem "Don`t Quit." He leaves behind his parents, Donald and Ruth, and brothers, Sean and Nathan. Donald Ryan McGlothlin, an American hero.
Thank you so much to all of our guests, to you being at home for being with us tonight. We want to wish a very special happy 14th birthday to Shannell Gloria. She watches the NANCY GRACE show every night from San Antonio, Texas, with her grandmother, Elvira.
Happy birthday, Shannell Gloria. A big hug to you.
See you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, everybody.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
