Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Protesters Target Proposed Union Limits in Ohio; Half of Detroit's Schools Closing; Study: Handler Beliefs Affect K-9s; Gadhafi Vows to Fight On; Workers Protest In Wisconsin
Aired February 22, 2011 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: Well, it looks like Wisconsin, it sounds like Wisconsin, but the anger being unleashed today is not Wisconsin; it's Ohio. Another state trying to scale back labor rights in the name of fiscal discipline.
A bill in the Ohio Senate would go even further than the so-called budget repair bill in Wisconsin. It would eliminate collective bargaining for state employees and take away the right of local, public workers to bargain for health insurance. There would be no automatic pay hikes based on experience or education, and teachers would no longer get a say in where they work.
Right now Ohio is one of 25 states that grant collective bargaining rights for all public workers, but the landscape is changing, and it's changing fast. Ohio, Wisconsin, Indiana, Tennessee and Idaho, they are all contemplating rollbacks particularly targeting teachers. The sponsor of the Ohio bill says that she is not trying to punish anybody.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHANNON JONES (R), OHIO STATE SENATE: We are out of money. I don't -- I can't say that any other way. We're broke. The state is $8 billion, $9 billion, pick a number, short. There's no more money for us to give these local communities. The local communities are struggling right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: CNN's Deborah Feyerick is in the thick of things in Columbus, Ohio.
And Deb, what's happening?
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Martin, we can tell you, just sort of the bite that you just ran of the Republican senator there, she's saying that the reason they need to do this is because there's no money. And the governments, the city and local governments, really need a way to be more flexible when it comes to managing the money they do have.
But what that means, it means a lot of the folks you see behind me, they are going to lose their right to negotiate or, in some cases, they're actually going to be able to negotiate, but only for salaries, not the pensions, not the health care that they count on when they take these sort of public jobs which are lower paying than private jobs.
I have two people with me. First of all, Jan Spangler is a kindergarten teacher. Charlie Williamson is with the Department of Corrections.
Jan, let me start with you. What does this mean for teachers?
JAN SPANGLER, KINDERGARTEN TEACHER: Well, it means that a profession that we decided to be a part of is going to be a hardship for us because it's going to be very difficult for us to not take other jobs to be good teachers, because we're going to make so much less than we did before.
FEYERICK: Do you think this jeopardizes your ability to remain in the middle class?
SPANGLER: Definitely, I feel that. Very much so, yes.
FEYERICK: What they're asking you for, is it reasonable given that the state is in a fiscal crisis, along with the nation, really?
SPANGLER: Well, I looked at the schedule that they printed with the bill yesterday. My income would be cut by about 35 percent coming this fall. How many people could take that kind of a hit to their income?
FEYERICK: OK. Is it worth it to you to take that cut if it means not being laid off?
SPANGLER: You know, if everyone in the state was doing it, I would certainly be willing to do that.
FEYERICK: All right. And you're talking about private folks as well.
SPANGLER: Yes, or just all the state employees like Governor Kasich's secretary, maybe.
FEYERICK: OK. Jan, thank you.
Charlie, what about you? You're a corrections officer. What does this mean to the folks who are working in the prisons right now?
CHARLIE WILLIAMSON, CORRECTIONS OFFICER: I think it means more dangerous conditions in our prisons. I worked in the Department of Collections before we had collective bargaining, and we didn't have the voice that we have now for safer working conditions for the inmates and for the employees.
FEYERICK: What does it mean to you when they say you can bargain for your salary, but you can't for pension or for safety or for health care issues?
WILLIAMSON: I'm sorry, the bill excludes state employees from all bargaining rights. We wouldn't be able to bargain anything. We wouldn't be able to bargain better cost savings that we've worked with the state to save about $200 million. We wouldn't be able to bargain health and safety. None of that.
FEYERICK: OK. Charlie and Jan, thank you so much for joining us.
So you can see, this is a real impact on the people who are here. That's why they've come out in force, they've come out in numbers.
We did speak to the former governor and he says that, in fact, this really isn't about trying to maintain fiscal responsibility. It's about undermining the unions. The Republican governor now in control doesn't feel that way.
Back to you, Martin.
SAVIDGE: Deborah Feyerick in Columbus, Ohio. Thank you.
And stay with us. This afternoon, Ohio Governor John Kasich will be Brooke Baldwin's guest. That will be at 4:00 p.m. Eastern, right here in the CNN NEWSROOM.
It's not just Ohio and Wisconsin. States all over the country are trying to balance their budgets by cutting costs, including education costs, which are some of the states' biggest expenses. How do you do that? Teacher pay cuts, teacher benefit cuts, bigger classrooms, or maybe higher taxes?
Join in the conversation on Ali's blog, CNN.com/Ali. You can also comment on Ali's Facebook and Twitter accounts. And then we'll use your comments throughout the program.
Well, it felt like running on jelly. That's how one resident described that massive magnitude 6.3 earthquake that shook New Zealand's south island to its core.
Aftershocks sent shell-shocked survivors scrambling for shelter. The quake left citizens bewildered, battered and bloody. And those are the lucky ones. Dozens are dead, hundreds more still trapped in the rubble right now.
That quake hit just before 1:00 p.m. Tuesday local time, the middle of the day. The center, just a few miles from the country's second largest city of Christchurch. That horrifying moment was caught on camera.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GAVIN BLOWMAN, SUMNER, NEW ZEALAND, RESIDENT: It's a live earthquake. You can see the floor is trembling and the rocks are falling down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: Those falling rocks crashed through several parts of town. Two sizeable aftershocks shook the city just hours after that initial quake, causing buildings to crumble, including this 130-year-old cathedral in the city square.
(WEATHER REPORT)
SAVIDGE: Well, we also want to take you to Libya now and what is happening there with surely what is the bloodiest of regional uprising against the autocratic leaders of that country.
Moammar Gadhafi, who has ruled by edict since 1969, has been on Libyan television now twice in the past several hours, and both times to signal he's not going anywhere, at least not willingly or not alive. In a long speech, reportedly from a compound that was bombed by the United States in 1986, Gadhafi blamed the protests against him on "a small sick group of outsiders." He said they and their supporters face execution. And he called on Libyans who love and support him to rally in the streets.
Well, there is no doubt that Tripoli, the capital, remains firmly Gadhafi control, thanks to heavily-armed soldiers and pro-government mercenaries. But the second largest city of Benghazi and much of eastern Libya has fallen to anti-regime protesters. And defections from the military, as well as civilian leadership, are continuing.
Today, on American TV, Libya's ambassador to the U.S. made a statement that would have been unthinkable just a few weeks ago. And that's our "Sound Effect" today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALI AUJALI, LIBYAN AMB. TO THE U.S.: I am calling for him to go. I am calling for him to go and leave our people alone.
Tripoli now is under gunfire. Tripoli, it is burning. The eastern part is under the control of the people, but if the regime manage to hit Tripoli and manage to control Tripoli, Benghazi and the other cities in the west, they will return back again and they will hit again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: We will have a lot more on Libya and about the circumstances there coming up this hour in "Globe Trekking."
Well, a tragic end for four Americans held hostage by Somali pirates. U.S. military officials say they were found dead on the yacht Quest today.
Pirates hijacked that vessel off the coast of Oman last week. The boat owned by Jean and Scott Adam of California, seen here in this picture. And they were killed -- or also killed with them, rather, were their friends. That's Phyllis MacKay and Bob Riggle.
A U.S. Navy ship had been trailing that vessel. A rocket-propelled grenade was fired at that Navy ship, and the U.S. forces responded by boarding the yacht. They found the Americans mortally wounded.
Two pirates were found dead on the Quest as well, and U.S. forces killed two other pirates. Thirteen more pirates were captured.
Phyllis MacKay and Bob Riggle, seen here, were from Seattle. They had been traveling with the Adams earlier this month. And here's what MacKay's niece said about that tragedy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NINA CROSSLAND, NIECE OF PHYLLIS MACAY: My aunt was not dead when she -- when the Navy SEALs arrived on the ship. She had been shot. She was not dead at that time, and they did try to save her, but they were unsuccessful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: Now, according to Adams' Web site, the couple, in 2004 embarked on a planned eight-to-10-year voyage around the world.
Remember high school? Remember how many students were in your class? Now imagine having 60 students in that class. It could soon happen in one major U.S. city. We'll tell you where in just a few minutes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(STOCK MARKET REPORT)
SAVIDGE: Robert Bobb was brought in to fix Detroit schools, but the school system is in so much debt, that the solution for now is closing half of the city's public schools. That translates to class size increases and jobs lost.
CNNMoney.com's Poppy Harlow has been following this story closely.
And Poppy, explain what's going on here.
POPPY HARLOW, CNNMONEY.COM: Sure.
Well, you know, Detroit and their public schools have sort of been in crisis for years. This is nothing he new. Education Secretary Arne Duncan called Detroit "Ground Zero" for the country's education crisis. And what you have seen there, if you look at the numbers, it's just an exodus of students.
Over the last decade, 2000 to 2010, Detroit's population fell 20 percent. But their public school enrollment, Martin, fell 50 percent. Parents are taking their kids out of Detroit schools, taking them to the suburbs.
So you have a massive budget deficit in Detroit -- $327 million is the budget gap that the schools are facing right now. And you mentioned what is happening, and in order to close that gap, what Robert Bobb, the emergency financial manager in charge of all of this, has done is he just got approved a plan to close 70 schools.
That would only leave 72 public schools in all of Detroit. And that would mean 60 kids in high school classes. This is the man we're talking about, Robert Bobb, here. We spent a lot of time with him in Detroit last month. And I want you to take a listen to what he has to say about why they are shuttering all of these schools. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: You closed 59 schools, more than a quarter of Detroit's public schools, and that has angered parents and teachers.
ROBERT BOBB, EMERGENCY FINANCIAL MANAGER, DETROIT: You know, we're going to anger more individuals in the next few months because I'm going to close somewhere between 20, maybe 40, schools within the next few months.
HARLOW: So you're almost cutting the number of Detroit public schools in half.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Indeed, they are. They're even going further than that, which is what this plan is confirming.
And just to give you a sense of how many students are fleeing this school district in Detroit, what they're expecting is that the city will go from about 73,000 public school students right now, Martin, to just over 58,000 by 2014. So, in just three years they're going to lose thousands of more students. And each student leaves, they lose money for the district, and that makes the situation even worse -- Martin.
SAVIDGE: Yes, of course.
Poppy, is this the only option, or are there other plans out there that are being considered or talked about?
HARLOW: Right. There are. That's a great question.
Right now Robert Bobb says, look, this is the only option we have. You, the state, are mandating us to close this massive gap to get it down to zero from over 300 million. This is the only way we can do that.
What he also says is this isn't an economically or academically viable plan. What he wants to do is restructure the schools like GM was restructured, essentially make a new school system and an old school system. Let the old school system carry the debt, the new school system have a fresh start. That's going to be a very hard sell to the state legislature, but that is what he wants to see happen.
We'll keep a very close eye on it and let you know what happens -- Martin.
SAVIDGE: And we appreciate that. Poppy Harlow, thanks very much.
And before the break you'll remember we asked for your input on how the education funding problem can be fixed. And we've received some pretty creative responses on Ali's blog on Facebook and Twitter.
Keith posted this: "Being a construction worker, I've seen millions wasted for what I see as unnecessary building accessories. Too many intricate items built into schools that have no educational bearing whatsoever."
Jeff posted this on Facebook: "Take local school boards out of the decision making process. Who needs politicians educating kids -- and federalize education in America."
Amy says, "I would fix the education funding gap by ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, re-evaluating our overseas military deployments, and means-testing Medicare and Social Security."
And Travis thinks that technology is the answer by " -- using the new tablet market in America, I think schools should stop wasting money every few years buying new books."
Don had several ideas. He wants to cut competitive sports, experiment with online classes and eReader textbooks. He also wants to tie payroll increases to revenue increases like the private sector, as well as tie salary increases to performance of students.
You can join in the conversation on Ali's blog at CNN.com/Ali. You can also comment on Ali's Facebook and Twitter accounts. We'll use your comments, as you just saw, throughout the program.
Are police dogs always accurate? Well, you may be surprised.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: You know, when I first heard about this study I found it fascinating. And I think you will, too. Here is the way it goes.
Eighteen k-9 teams, dogs and handlers, are put through their paces. They are led through four rooms supposedly salted with explosives and drugs. And the dogs sure did alert more than 200 times. Only here's the thing -- there were no explosives or drugs. Just some decoys like Slim Jims and tennis balls, and signs that the handlers thought marked their targets. Get it? Thought marked.
Dr. Lisa Lit is the lead author of this study out of the University of California, Davis. And she is going tell us more about her research and what it means.
And I also want to introduce Sergeant Terry Anderson. He supervisors the Pasadena, Texas, K-9 squad and is president of the National Police K-9 Association. So he can speak to the training of the dogs and what the handlers go through as well.
But let me begin with you, Lisa. And first of all, were you surprised by what you found?
LISA LIT, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, DAVIS: I think that we were a little surprised, yes. I think that -- yes, go ahead.
SAVIDGE: No, I'd like to just ask you to expand a bit more on why you were so surprised. What shocked you the most?
LIT: I think that we anticipated some alerts in the conditions where there was a piece of paper and the handlers believed that there may have been scent behind that piece of paper. But I think we were surprised that we saw so many alerts, not just on the pieces of paper, but in all the scenarios and around all of the scenarios.
SAVIDGE: Were the handlers told ahead of time that there was stuff in the room?
LIT: The handlers were told that there may be up to three of their target scents in each of the rooms, and that if they saw a piece of paper, then that would be marking their target scent.
SAVIDGE: And so what am I supposed to take away from this, that somehow, subliminally, the relationship between the handler and the dog, that the handler is communicating in some way that the dog is picking up on and thereby triggering a response?
LIT: There's been a lot of other research that has been investigating the social communication abilities of the dogs with respect to humans. And so the findings weren't entirely unexpected. And I think that handlers are aware that dogs may be feeding off of unintended cues given by the handlers. And there are certainly attempts made to sort of work around this.
And so I think maybe --
SAVIDGE: All right. Well, let me just stop you there, because I just want to bring in Terry before we run out of time.
And Terry, first, what do you make of this study? And do you believe it?
SGT. TERRY ANDERSON, SUPERVISOR, K-9 SQUAD, PASADENA, TEXAS: Well, I can't say that I believe it or disbelieve it. I really can't comment on it because I don't know the totality of that study, or what all was done, things like that. I do know that cueing animals is a big part of training that we train for on a regular basis so that we don't create those type of cueing issues.
SAVIDGE: But you would also know about the close relationship. Do you think it's possible that some way the handler could be sending messages in body language or whatever?
ANDERSON: Well, dogs are master communicators. I'm sure that there are subconscious things that we do not even recognizing it that the dog may interpret that as, hey, I've got odor in this area because dad is telling me that idea. But, again, it's not something that I would say is going to affect their ability to find the trained odor, because once they have been trained and they're maintained, and they have ongoing training, regular, recurring training, if those negative training aids and those other aspects, videotaping the training, those things that you do to limit that communication or that cueing.
SAVIDGE: OK. Let me just stop you there real quick, because I just want Lisa to give us one last thought, which is what she may recommend for training in the future, say, of these animals and their handlers.
LIT: I think that science and law enforcement should work together to investigate this further and think about possible targeted, focused remedies to optimize performance.
SAVIDGE: Well, it is --
ANDERSON: Martin, there's one --
SAVIDGE: Go ahead, Terry.
ANDERSON: I would like to say this, that the scientific community has been working diligently, hand in hand with law enforcement, for long periods of time regarding dogs' capabilities in odor responses and things of this nature. And the truth is, is that they don't have a scientific machine that can be as accurate with locating the odors and detecting the odors that the dogs can.
SAVIDGE: Right. And I would point out that just by talking about the subject, in no way are we trying to diminish the hard work your officers around the country or the animals of which they use. They have done tremendous good.
ANDERSON: Certainly.
SAVIDGE: Thank you both for joining us. A fascinating discussion.
LIT: Thank you.
SAVIDGE: Well, a Pacific Northwest storm is expected to bring, yes, more snow. Chad Myers will tell us where.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(WEATHER REPORT)
SAVIDGE: On a much more serious note, much of Christchurch, New Zealand, is in ruins after a 6.3 magnitude earthquake. Shocking footage, and we'll have updates for you next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
AVIDGE: We are going to take you to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton who is speaking now.
HILLARY CLINTON, SECRETARY OF STATE: -- whose lives have been lost and their loved ones, and we join the international community in strongly condemning the violence as we've received the report of hundreds killed and many more injured.
This bloodshed is completely unacceptable. It is the responsibility of the government of Libya to respect the universal rights of their own people, including their right to free expression and assembly.
The United States is also gravely concerned by reports of violence in Yemen and elsewhere. We urge restraint and for the governments in the region to respect the rights of their people.
In Bahrain, we welcome King Hamad's decision to release a number of prisoners and we look forward to implementation. We also welcome Crown Prince Salman's steps to initiate a meaningful dialogue with the full spectrum of Bahraini society.
We hope Bahrain's friends across the region and around the world will support this initiative as a constructive path to preserve Bahrain's stability and help meet the aspirations of all its people.
As we have said, these steps will need to be followed by concrete actions and reforms. We urge all parties to work quickly so that a national dialogue can produce meaningful measures that respond to the legitimate aspirations of all the people of Bahrain. And we continue to call on the Bahraini government to exercise restraint. There is no place for violence against peaceful protestors.
The process for a new Tunisia and for a new Egypt has only just begun. We welcome Egypt's leaders, signaling their commitment to an orderly transition to a democratic government, and we look to them to take the concrete steps needed to bring about political change. And we will continue to be a supportive partner to the peoples of both countries as they seek a better future.
Across the Middle East, people are calling for their governments to be more open, more accountable and more responsive. And the United States believes it is in the interest of governments to engage peacefully and positively in addressing their demands and to work to respond to them. Without genuine progress toward open and accountable political systems, the gap between people and their governments can only grow and instability can only deepen.
It was with great pleasure that I welcomed the foreign minister of Latvia here today, a democracy that --
SAVIDGE: And you've been listening to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton as she has been commenting on the fast-moving events that have encompassed much of the Middle East and North Africa. We will continue to listen in on that news conference to see if she returns to the subject of Libya. You can imagine it's some very, very long, probably 24-hour days at the State Department these days.
Now, to what you have missed.
They have been protesting the governor's proposed curbs on collective bargaining for a week now. But today, teachers in Madison, Wisconsin, went back to their classrooms. It is also the first time students have been in school in a week. Teachers say their protest is not over.
But the Republican Governor Scott Walker is standing firm on his effort to make state workers pay more for their benefits and weaken their collective bargaining rights. He blames unions for squandering state coffers. Opponents say his real aim is to bust unions.
And it looks like Wisconsin, it may sound like Wisconsin, but there are -- this is actually Ohio -- another state trying to scale back labor rights in the name of fiscal discipline. Demonstrators staged a protest at the Ohio state capitol over the proposed curbs on collective bargaining rights for public employees. Government John Kasich says that he is trying to reduce the state deficit but state workers also accuse him of union-busting.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
SAVIDGE: It is just after 8:30 in the morning now in New Zealand. Search and rescue teams worked through the night in the earthquake- ravaged city of Christchurch. They are desperately, desperately trying to find survivors buried in the rubble of collapsed buildings. Much of that city is in ruins and at least 65 people are confirmed dead. That number is expected to rise.
Stay with CNN for updates throughout the day.
And authorities in St. Petersburg, Florida, shut down roads and some schools today as investigators search for the man who shot and killed a police officer late Monday night. According to police, Officer David Crawford is the third St. Petersburg officer killed in shootings in the last 28 days. The 46-year-old officer had a wife and a 24- year-old daughter.
Start your countdown. Earlier today, NASA announced that after a delay of more than three months, the Discovery space shuttle is set to make its final voyage at 4:50 p.m. Eastern Time Thursday. The shuttle will be on an 11-day return trip to the International Space Station, making it the 39th flight for the space agency's oldest surviving shuttle. And you can watch live coverage of the launch right here on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi vows to fight to the last drop of blood. Appearing on television in the capital of Tripoli, Gadhafi blamed the revolt against the regime on agents of foreign intelligence services. This is as anti-government demonstrators appear to control at least the eastern part of the country and show no sign of abandoning their effort to oust Gadhafi.
Joining me now with his take on the crisis in Libya, CNN International anchor and correspondent, Michael Holmes.
Good to see you.
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR/CORRESPONDENT: Good to se you, my friend. It was quite a speech, wasn't it? He was trying to outdo the U.N. one.
(LAUGHTER)
SAVIDGE: Well over an hour.
HOLMES: It did. And it was an hour 20 I think.
SAVIDGE: Props and other things.
So, let me ask you this. You know, one of the things that -- you look at the makeup of this country. It is a very tribal country.
HOLMES: It is. Yes.
SAVIDGE: And how does that play into events that are happening?
HOLMES: Well, very importantly, when you look at Benghazi on the eastern side, and you look at the map of Libya and you got Benghazi, which is 1,000 miles from the capital Tripoli, completely different tribe, not of -- and see it there. Tobruk there, and Tripoli, Benghazi as well -- they're all different tribal areas.
And what has happened in the last few days, we've seen evidence that the tribes have turned against Gadhafi. His tribe is based in and around Tripoli, that sort of area of the country. Well, it does play into it a lot. And if they turned against him, then it's significant. Also, the tribes play into the makeup of the army as well.
SAVIDGE: But does this play to what his son spoke about, which is the prospect of civil war.
HOLMES: Yes. I know, it's pretty dramatic stuff, but the same kind of scarecrow stuff we've seen in other regimes. The Egyptians, too, were using the scarecrow of Islamic militancy. And this is what -- and you're hearing the same thing with Gadhafi as well. He was saying it today, too. He said rivers of blood will flow. Basically saying, if it's not me, it's going to be a nightmare.
The problem with him, he's not got any sort of filter on him. He's just as likely to go out there and kill thousands of people. And this is what the international community is very worried about.
SAVIDGE: All right. I want to switch gears quickly to Bahrain, talk about the protests there. And there are concessions being made by the royal family.
HOLMES: Yes, massive demonstration today in Pearl Square. The biggest one yet, tens of thousands of people. You got to remember, this is a country of, you know, about 1 million people or less. So, a turnout of 30,000, 40,000 is quite a significant chunk of the population. It turned out they are still sticking with their demands.
SAVIDGE: Michael, I'm just going to interrupt you quickly because Hillary Clinton, secretary of state, is taking questions.
CLINTON: -- in Libya with grave concern. We have joined with the international community in strongly condemning the violence in Libya. And we believe that the government of Libya bears responsibility for what is occurring and must take actions to end the violence.
Now, as always, the safety and well-being of Americans has to be our highest priority, and we are in touch with many Libyan officials directly and indirectly, and with other governments in the region to try to influence what is going on inside Libya. The Security Council, as you know, is meeting today to assess the situation and determine whether there are steps the international community can and should take.
As we gain a greater understanding of what actually is happening because you know, of course, that communication has been very effectively shut down and we're trying to gather as much information as possible, we will take appropriate steps in line with our policies, our values and our laws, but we're going to have to work in concert with the international community.
And I think that the message today is very clear and unambiguous from the entire international community. There is -- there is no ambivalence. There is no doubt in anyone's mind that violence must stop and that the government of Libya has a responsibility to respect the universal rights of all of its citizens and to support the exercise of those rights.
Now, we are also deeply saddened and very upset by the murder of four American citizens whose yacht, the Quest, was seized off the coast of Oman. This deplorable act by the pirates that stalk vessels in the waters off of Somalia firmly underscores the need for the international community to act more decisively together. We've got to have a more effective approach to maintaining security on the seas in the ocean lanes that are so essential to commerce and travel.
Our deepest sympathies go to the victims' families at this time, and we will honor their memory by strengthening international responses and partnerships to bring these criminals to justice and to more effectively end the scourge of piracy, something that should not persist in the 21st century.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) have stated on numerous --
SAVIDGE: So, that was Hillary Clinton. She was secretary of state referring to the situation in Libya. Then talking to what I wanted to ask Michael about --
HOLMES: Yes.
SAVIDGE: -- which was the horrible turn of events with these four Americans killed by Somali pirates.
HOLMES: Yes. I mean, the thing with Somalia that we got to remember, there's been no functioning government since, what, 1991? The country is essentially a failed state.
It is so easy for these guys to set it up. It costs $20,000, $30,000 to set up a pirate business. You send these guys out into the oceans there, millions of square miles of ocean. You cannot police that with navies.
They go out there. They're now using these mother ships. They can stay out for months at a time, withstand monsoons and the like. You just need one big hit.
And these guys, they took a supertanker the other day with a couple of hundred million dollars of oil on it.
So, you set this up for 40 grand, you could get a $9 million payday. So, the business model is a very attractive one for a country that is bereft of opportunity and bereft of any kind of future.
SAVIDGE: But, now, it also seems one that's grown more violent.
HOLMES: That's right. I mean, I'd love to know more about why these guys were there, why you would sail your yacht through there.
SAVIDGE: We got to end it there. Thank you, Michael. Good to see you.
Labor unions, they are an integral part of our economic history. But is it time for America to turn the page? We'll debate that, just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: It is time now for our "Stream Team". We've been watching the protests in Ohio and Wisconsin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PROTESTORS CHANTING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SAVIDGE: People there have taken to the streets to oppose the so- called anti-union legislation. States are trying to cut their budgets, targeting benefits and negotiating rights for teachers and state workers. It is an economic reality right now.
But then let's look at the effect of unions. The AFL-CIO says union workers earn 30 percent more than their non-union counterparts, $10,000 a year on average. Does that disparity put a target on union worker's back? Also, let's take a look at the private sector. Those jobs make up just under half of all union positions in this country. But it's also just around 8 percent of the total private work force, that is compared to around 40 percent of the public sector jobs.
So we wanted to know this: Has the time for unions passed? Joining me now with their takes on the issue, the University of Maryland International Business Professor Peter Morici, and President of the Economic Policy Institute Lawrence Mishel.
Peter, let me start with you. Are unions a thing of the past now?
PETER MORICI, ECONOMICS PROFESSOR, UNIV. OF MARYLAND: It seems private sector workers consider them to be. Each year for the last two decades the percentage of workers that are represented by a union is declining. Increasingly, a professional, well-educated labor force can negotiate for itself and it seems quite happy to do so. Unions have not been able to win many representation elections, and they're falling in numbers, except in the public sector where government protects them. Because workers don't appear to want them. SAVIDGE: Lawrence, what do you say to that? That we just don't seem to like unions like we used to like unions?
LAWRENCE MISHEL, PRES., ECONOMIC POLICY INST.: Well, the fact is in 2007 Richard Freeman, from Harvard University, he is one of the most esteemed labor market economists in the world, did a study about what workers want. Do they want unions? And he found that a majority of the non-managerial workforce, when asked, wants a union in their work place tomorrow, if they could have it. In fact, if all the workers in America who wanted a union, had one, we would have unionization rates similar to that of Germany, above 40 percent.
The question about whether unions are relevant? It is relevant to American workers now and when they are no longer relevant to American workers, then they won't be. Now whether professional workers need union or now, I would only point out the following. The typical college graduate is not making anything more now than he or she did 10 years ago. The wages of even college graduates have not grown in 10 years, nor have they for regular high school educated workers. So it seems to me that there is some major problems facing America. Workers are not seeing their pay increase. The economy is gaining, productivity is going up and workers aren't getting their fair share.
SAVIDGE: Let me get in there, because I want to share this with-
(CROSS TALK)
SAVIDGE: Let's go back and forth. Peter, let me ask you, aside from wages, aren't there other benefits that unions bring? I would think of safety innovations that they have forced into the workplace, that sometimes employers haven't necessarily wanted to do.
MORICI: Well, let's look at the oil platforms in the Gulf of Mexico. We had unionized workers there. It's another error when we talk about bosses not wanting to have a safe workplace. We're always going to have some troublesome employers. But I don't know that unions are necessarily the answer in that regard. But at the end of the day, it's up to workers to decide whether they want them and whether they serve those interests best.
And organized labor has to ask itself, why does it keep losing those elections, if workers want those unions? And the answer is that workers increasingly see the benefit structures that unions provide as making them less competitive in a globalized economy. Very often when works unionize they get beaten out by the competition. The firms go bankrupt. Look at Chrysler, General Motors, the steel companies, and so farther.
SAVIDGE: Lawrence, do you think that unions have around image problem in this country? In other words, they've been through scandals, they have been through problems, and that, just as Peter seems to point out, most Americans who would be represented by a union think they are out of touch with their own lives?
MISHEL: Well, I don't think the polling actually shows that whatsoever. And this has really nothing to do with what's going on in Wisconsin. In Wisconsin the legislation there is saying, unions would have to be reelected every year. The government there would be sponsoring elections all across Wisconsin every year. It says you can't allow people who want to pay union dues, to the union, to do it through the payroll system. It is saying that unions aren't going to be allowed to negotiate over certain things they are now allowed to do. It's not because workers don't want to do that. It's because the governor doesn't want to allow them to do that. If this happened in another country, we would say it's a violation of the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights and of the International Labor Organization's, you know, procedures and strictures.
SAVIDGE: Lawrence, I've got to cut you off. Time has just run away from us. That could be a debate for another day. Lawrence Michel and Peter Morici, thank you both for joining me. It was a pleasure.
Well, the list of potential Republican presidential candidates just got a little bit smaller. We'll tell you about it in the political ticker.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SAVIDGE: Time now for our CNN Political Update. One name dropping off the list of potential Republican presidential candidates; this news is so big we needed not one, but two political reporters to help us with this.
CNN Senior Political Editor Mark Preston and CNN Deputy Political Director Paul Steinhauser join me from Washington.
Gentlemen?
MARK PRESTON, CNN SR. POLITICAL EDITOR: Hey, Marty, how are you?
The big news today regarding the presidential race in 2012 is not who is in, the question is who is out? Today Senator John Thune, he is a Republican from South Dakota, decided against a run. In fact, let's take a look at what he said there, if we can pull up that full screen.
As he says there, bottom line, he gave it a lot of thought but he feels that he is best served to stay in the Senate. Now, he is a Senate Republican leader. He is considered a star in the Republican Party. Even though, Marty, he has decided not to run in 2012, he certainly is going to be one of these contenders we look at in 2016, if President Obama wins a second term.
But you know something? Let's talk to Paul about who's potentially in.
PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN DEPUTY POLITICAL EDITOR: Yes, Marty, let's talk about former Senator from Pennsylvania, Rick Santorum. He, today, made a big hire for his political action committee. I also learned, guess what, that he's going back to Iowa, of course, the crucial state of Iowa, later this week.
Let's talk about another person who is very seriously thinking about running for the White House Ron Paul, the congressman from Texas. He learned today he's going to up to New Hampshire. He'll be headlining a major speech in New Hampshire. Of course, both those states, Marty, they go early in the presidential primary and caucus calendar.
Mark, back to you.
PRESTON: Let's just close out with this. Marty, we talk about Donald Trump and whether or not he is going to run for president. There's a new "Newsweek"/"Daily Beast" poll that shows that Donald Trump would only trail Barack Obama by two points if the election were held today. So, we don't know if he'll run or not, but it's work speculating. We can have a little fun over that.
SAVIDGE: All right. Excellent tag team work to the two of you. Thanks very much.
PRESTON: Thanks.
SAVIDGE: CNN NEWSROOM continues with Brooke Baldwin after this break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
