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Nancy Grace
Julie Schenecker`s Husband Wants a Divorce
Aired February 22, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, upscale Tampa suburbs. Police race to an exclusive gated community and a 3,000-plus- square-foot home. A beautiful 16-year-old girl sitting at her computer, doing homework in her own bedroom dead, her little brother, 50 feet away, dead, gunned down in the home`s three-car garage, still sitting in the family SUV.
Who`s the gun-toting shooter that claims the lives of two innocent teens? It was Mommy! Mommy found lounging by the pool out back, wearing her house robe, covered in blood. Why? She says because they talked back.
Mommy in court in full shackle, cool as a cucumber, eyes closed throughout the hearing, not even giving the judge the courtesy to look up at the bench! And even after cops say Mommy confesses in detail, she pleads not guilty. With nearly a million dollars in assets, Mommy uses a public defender. That`s right, us, the taxpayers, we pay for million- dollar mom`s defense.
Bombshell tonight. After her high-ranking military husband pulls a no-show in court, the two reunite secretly in a private jailhouse meeting where he tells her, I want a divorce.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fifty-year-old Julie Schenecker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Accused of executing her children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My exceptional children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ms. Schenecker is charged with two counts of murder in the first degree.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The statement issued by Colonel Parker Schenecker, "I felt it was important and proper to inform her in person about my intention the file for divorce."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Calyx and Beau, exceptional children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defense waives formal reading, enters a plea of not guilty to each count. Enters a plea of not guilty to each count.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Clearly, the events of January 27th have taken Julie and me on different paths."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was driving her son to soccer practice. She had taken a gun and she shot him once through the windshield, the second shot into his head, the third shot into his head.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Beau`s body found in an SUV in the garage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She drove back home, went in the house, went upstairs. Her daughter was working at the computer, her once in the head, the second shot in the face.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I will spend the rest of my life honoring the memory of my two beautiful children."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please don`t forget how they lived.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, Ohio suburbs. A school nurse tips off police, who race to a family home to investigate allegations a 9-year-old little girl has been kept prisoner, locked in a half-bathroom for six years, since age 3. The family cat even living better than the little girl. That half-bath? Well, it`s going to look pretty good to the little girl`s parents tonight because now they can share their new toilet, their new metal toilet, with all their new friends behind bars!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A child abuse case so shocking. A 9-year-old girl held captive in her own home. Officers say for the last six years, the girl`s grandparents, Rebe (ph) and Brian Hart (ph), have locked her in a half-bathroom and only allowed her out to go to school. According to police reports, the couple would barricade the door with a large dresser to make sure she couldn`t break free. Police were tipped off after the girl went to a school nurse here at Orville Wright (ph) Elementary, where she`s a student. She told the nurse sometimes she gets dinner but is required to eat in the restroom and she sleeps on a beach towel on the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re now learning this may not be the first time she tried to get help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had we known sooner, of course, action would have been taken much sooner.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening, I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being us. Live, upscale Tampa suburbs. A beautiful 16-year-old girl dead at her computer, doing homework, her little brother gunned down in the home`s three-car garage. Who is the gun-wielding shooter that claims the lives of two innocent teens? It was Mommy!
Bombshell tonight. After her high-ranking military husband pulls a no-show in court, the two reunite secretly in a private jailhouse meeting where he tells her, I want a divorce.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You honored my children, your devoted friend, your classmate, your teammate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have Julie Schenecker to the podium, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My exceptional children.
GRACE: Brother and sister gunned down. And who is the shooter? It`s Mommy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The statement issued by Colonel Parker Schenecker, "I thought it was important and proper to inform her in person about my need to focus on the future and my intention to file for divorce."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officers found Julie Schenecker sitting on her back porch, covered in her children`s blood.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ms. Schenecker is charged with two counting of murder in the first degree.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are obviously going to be held in jail without bond.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She allegedly told police she shot them because she was tired of them mouthing off.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "This difficult but necessary step will help me do just that, move forward."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t thank you enough for Calyx and Beau.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) not guilty at this time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re excused.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. But first, out to Steve Helling, staff writer, "People" magazine. So Daddy wants a divorce. Surprise, surprise. What happened?
STEVE HELLING, "PEOPLE": Well, it`s exactly what we expected was going to happen, is that Parker showed up at the jail, sat down face to face with Julie, with a piece of Plexiglas in between them, and told him that -- told her that the marriage was over. And nobody`s really surprised to see this development at all.
GRACE: To you, Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Let`s go back through what happened to the two teens.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, what happened was, they were shot dead. Premeditated murder is what prosecutors are saying because Julie Schenecker was driving her son to soccer practice. She had bought a gun five days earlier, brought it with her, shot one child through the windshield, then two shots into her son`s head, drove him back home, kept his body in the car, went upstairs to the second floor, one shot to her daughter`s head, the second shot to her daughter`s face as she was doing homework on her computer.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Gloria Allred, Los Angeles, Alex Sanchez, New York, Remi Spencer, New York.
Gloria, how is this divorce going to go down? And if you look at a lot of other cases -- let`s just look at, for instance, Andrea Yates. At least her husband, Russell, waited a period of time and divorced discretely after she murdered all of their children. How does this work when Mommy is behind bars for the murder of the children?
GLORIA ALLRED, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: No problem. He can go ahead with the divorce, and I think he`s got every reason to go ahead with the divorce, no reason at all to wait. And in fact, I`m sure that he`s got emotional reasons and perhaps financial for proceeding right now.
GRACE: How, if at all, will this affect the trial, Remi Spencer?
REMI SPENCER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don`t think it will have any impact on the trial. I mean, every criminal defense attorney would love to see the perfect family unit sitting in the gallery during a jury trial. But his absence and their divorce will have no impact on the state`s ability to prove its case.
GRACE: What about it, Sanchez?
ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I think it will have an important impact because it would be very helpful to the defense if the father was standing behind the mother in this case, and maybe even come into court and testify, testify that she was having extremely serious emotional problems, testifying that she was a great mother, testifying that she was trying everything in her power to get her life together and things just kind of spun out of control. The fact that he`s absented himself -- I think that`s going to hurt the defense.
GRACE: I think it will, too, Alex Sanchez. And another thing. To you, Jean Casarez. We can clearly see that he could be a witness at trial.
CASAREZ: For the prosecution, he could be a witness at trial because back in the fall, when a police report was filed because she was abusing the daughter, he was the mediator. He came in to try to mediate between the mother and the daughter.
GRACE: Let`s go out to C.W. Jensen. Do they need the father at trial, C.W.?
C.W. JENSEN, RET. PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: No, I don`t think they need the father at trial, and it`s probably maybe best for him not to be involved. They could, if this is a capital crime, need to have him talk about things that had happened in the marriage before this, so -- if they`re frying to build a case that way for the death penalty. But you know, he`s going through this. He`s obviously being counseled by not only the public -- or the D.A., but his own attorney. And they`re probably helping him along.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Pamela in Kansas. Hi, Pamela.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. My -- my concern or my (INAUDIBLE) is that I would kind of focus in on the divorce aspect of it. I believe they probably were having problems before. And you know, a lot of these military wives are at home for days (INAUDIBLE) sometimes years, and it may have been something she wasn`t able to cope with, which (INAUDIBLE) give her no excuse in my book, but it may be a good reason or a motive why she had probably told him that, you know, You`re not divorcing me, and then maybe this is what she did to let him know.
GRACE: You know what? Actually, Dr. Lillian Glass, Pam in Kansas`s scenario is not that far-fetched. We know very often, one parent will murder a child or children to get back at the other parent. And if she perceived that he only was in the marriage for her -- I mean, for the children and not for her, this could have been a reaction.
LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Exactly. Exactly. So she may have done this, as you said, to get back at him. And what`s also interesting to note, Nancy -- you notice that she`s shaking as she`s being led...
GRACE: Let`s see that video, Liz...
GLASS: ... by the officer...
GRACE: ... the video of Mommy shaking as she comes out of the house.
GLASS: And what`s happened -- right. What`s happened is you see her whole autonomic nervous system has just taken over. She`s in complete shock that she`s gotten caught. She obviously did not think this through.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, was the shaking also part of a medication she was taking?
CASAREZ: A predetermined medical condition -- that`s why she`s been in the infirmary, too. They`re not saying what it is, but that is why we believe she was shaking.
GRACE: Very important to note Jean said the infirmary, not the mental ward, not the psych ward. Oh, no, no, no, no. Mommy`s not crazy. Mommy knew what she was doing when she gunned down her little girl and little boy, two teenagers. In fact, she told cops why she did it. Because they talked back. They were mouthy. Her husband, a no-show in court, finally has a secret reunion with his wife behind bars to tell her just a few magic words, "I want a divorce."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Schenecker was appointed to a public defender`s office, which plans to ask the judge to impose a lien on Schenecker`s assets, which will likely include marital assets. It`s unclear, though, whether the divorce filing may also have something to do with finances.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Authorities say Julie Schenecker shot and killed her two children because they were being mouthy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These were good kids. These were average kids, the kids you`d see anywhere.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My children, Calyx and Beau.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Beau`s body found in an SUV in the garage, Calyx in an upstairs bedroom. Tampa police say their own mother, 50-year-old Julie Schenecker, shot and killed them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defense waives formal reading, enters a plea of not guilty to each count.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She pleaded not guilty to charges of first degree murder. Schenecker was appointed to the public defender`s office.
GRACE: That`s right, the taxpayers pay for million-dollar Mommy`s defense!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sixteen-year-old Calyx.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And 13-year-old Beau.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She said that they were mouthy to her and that`s why she shot them.
GRACE: Mommy says they talked back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives say Julie Schenecker admitted to shooting her two kids, 16-year-old Calyx and 13-year-old Beau for being mouthy. Now she faces first-degree murder charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People here in this Tampa Palms neighborhood say that they`re still dealing with this tragedy, but they say it`s tougher to explain to their children what took place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls tonight. After Daddy is a no-show in the courtroom, Mommy shows to answer up on two charges of gunning down her two teens. Motive? They talked back. He finally makes it to the jailhouse for a secret meeting, a reunion of sorts, where he says those four special words, "I want a divorce."
Straight out to the lines. Kate in Illinois. Hi, Kate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I wondered, if they do get a divorce, will spousal privilege still apply if she might have told something to him?
GRACE: Good question. Unleash the lawyers, Gloria Allred, LA, Alex Sanchez, New York, Remi Spencer, New York. Gloria, what about it?
ALLRED: Any communication that was made from one spouse to the other during the marriage is confidential, is privileged, and that -- and a spouse cannot be compelled to disclose what the other spouse said during the marriage. Now, once they are divorced, that`s a different situation about what is said after the divorce. But they can`t be compelled to say what was said during the marriage.
GRACE: You know, as I recall, Florida -- Ellie in the control room, look this up for me. As I recall, in Florida, they have an exception where if it deals with the abuse or the mistreatment of one of the children, that the marital privilege may not apply. Hold on. I`m getting an answer in my ear on that one. Do you recall -- Ellie, is that you in my ear?
Yes, that`s correct. And Gloria, I don`t know of any other jurisdiction that has this. What about it, Jean?
CASAREZ: No, you`re right. There is an exception, and I think it goes toward the issue of public safety. We don`t want that marital privilege to ensue when there is an issue of child safety and abuse.
GRACE: But Gloria Allred, back to you. Typically, how does the marital, husband-wife, privilege work, Gloria?
ALLRED: Well, it works in the sense that one person is the holder of the privilege, and the other one -- and whoever is the holder of the privilege, of course, can waive it. But generally, somebody who is accused of a crime is not going to waive it. So this is unusual, if that exists in that state, and -- but on the other hand, I would doubt that the other spouse is going to say that he knew of any abuse because then comes the question, Why didn`t he do something about it?
GRACE: Well, actually, you know, one thing that I know of -- out to you Alex Sanchez and Remi Spencer. Alex, I do know of an incident where the mom and the daughter, who she later gunned down, as she was sitting with her back turned to her mother at her computer in her bedroom doing her homework, where the girl had gone into the store, came back out with a bag, and the mom grabbed the bag and looked at it. And the little girl said, Don`t look in my bag at whatever I purchased. And the mom started beating her in the face for a period of time. I think people in the parking lot saw what happen, and they ended up -- what happened, Jean? Didn`t they get counseling?
CASAREZ: Oh, it was huge. It was big. It was last fall. She went to school, told the counselors. They got police involved. Police filed a report. Department of Children and Family Services got involved. Finally, right before Christmas, they felt there was no actual continuing abuse going on. The investigation ended.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At this time, we will proceed with the arraignment in this case. Ms. Schenecker is charged with two counts of murder in the first degree. Does the defense waive formal reading?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, Your Honor. The defense waives formal reading, enters a plea of not guilty to each count.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. I`ll enter a plea of not guilty at this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had a plan and she carried it out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A Florida mom pleaded not guilty to murdering her teenage children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother stands accused of killing her two teenage children. She allegedly told police she shot them because she was tired of them mouthing off, talking back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Court documents reveal officers found Schenecker unconscious in the pool area, covered in dried blood.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Insanity in general is a difficult row to hoe. But certainly, in a case like this, with facts like this, it has to be a consideration.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... found, in fact, by Tampa police. They say she was covered in blood from head to toe.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Julie Schenecker told Tampa police that the kids mouthed off to her and that they were mouthy and they had talked back to her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s see a shot, that aerial view of the home, Elizabeth. You can`t claim either of these two were -- these two, the husband or the wife, were living under poverty circumstances. At least we know money wasn`t one of their problems. They lived in a 3,000-foot -- 3,000-plus- foot-square -- square-foot home, with the indoor pool in the back. But still, Mommy just wasn`t happy.
To Steve Helling, staff writer, "People" magazine. What do we know about their life? And with all these assets, nearly a million dollars in assets, she`s using the public defender? I`m paying for her defense?
HELLING: Well, she certainly had a great house and she certainly had what looked like a wonderful life. We have no idea what her debts were. We have no idea...
GRACE: Oh! Oh! Don`t even start...
HELLING: ... what her liquid -- I`m just...
GRACE: ... Helling, with poor little rich girl! Don`t go there with me!
HELLING: Well, I`m just saying we don`t know exactly what was going on with that. I`m just saying. But what was going on in their life before this whole thing happened -- you know, from all accounts, this was a happy marriage. We talked to so many people who said that they seemed happy, they seemed together. And you know, this came as a surprise, a real big surprise to Parker, so -- because he was overseas. There`s no telling what he really knew, but one thing I do know is he didn`t know it was this bad.
GRACE: And not only that, they`re getting about $3,000 a month extra in rental income, which means somewhere out there, they`ve got rental units that I don`t have on my list of assets.
HELLING: But they could be upside down in those, Nancy. You never know.
GRACE: They could be what?
HELLING: Upside down in it. They could owe more than it`s worth.
GRACE: What -- what are -- what are you? I don`t understand why you`re giving this crazy -- you`re not Suze Orman! What are you with this financial advice? They may -- they got rental income, Steve Helling! They`ve got a pool...
HELLING: I understand.
GRACE: ... luxury cars, the home, the works. She`s not working. Yet she`s so miserable, she has to murder her children? Good luck on that insanity defense, Mommy!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: 50-year-old Julie Schenecker --
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Accused of executing her children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My exceptional children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miss Schenecker is charged with two counts of murder in the first degree.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: This statement issued by Colonel Parker Schenecker, "I felt it was important and proper to inform her in person about my intention to file for divorce."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Calyx and Beau, my exceptional children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) enters a plea of not guilty to each count.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: "Clearly the events of January 27th have taken Julie and me on different paths."
CASAREZ: She was driving her son to soccer practice. She had taken the gun and she shot him once through the windshield. The second shot into his head. The third shot into his head.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Beau`s body found in an SUV in the garage.
CASAREZ: She drove back home, went in the house, went upstairs, her daughter was working at the computer. Shot her once in the head, the second shot in the face.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I will spend the rest of my life honoring the memory of my two beautiful children."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please don`t forget how they lived. I can`t thank you enough for today`s moving, loving memorial for my exceptional children and for your tributes through the past few days. Whether you wore some blue or some Harry Potter glasses, whether you lit a candle, laid a flower or signed a soccer jersey, you honored my children.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Just in, daddy was a no-show in court when mommy, Julie Schenecker, stands accused of the murder of both of her teens. Motive? She says they mouthed back at her, talked back to her. So she gunned them down.
Her husband did not appear in court even though we know he was back from duty in Qatar. But he finally appears at the jail to tell her he wants a divorce. Clearly signaling he`s not falling for any wacky insanity theory she might mount for a defense.
What happened, Jean?
CASAREZ: Well, let`s start five days before. She went and she bought a gun. And there was a five-day mandatory wait period. She wrote notes in the home talking about the massacre that she was going to do. That day, January 27th, she drove her son to soccer practice, took the gun with her, shot him three times, once through the windshield, then the two shots into her son.
Drove back to the home, kept this child in the car, went upstairs and shot her daughter twice, in the head and in the face. Placed her daughter on the bed after she was dead with a blanket covering her, put a blanket over his son in the garage.
GRACE: To Dr. Lillian Glass, psychologist, author of "Toxic People" joining us out of Orlando.
Doctor, what do you make of her actions, covering up the bodies, the premeditation and then telling police -- they find her in the backyard lounging by the swimming pool in her house robe, covered in blood. What do you make of her actions?
LILLIAN GLASS, PSYCHOLOGIST, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT, AUTHOR OF "TOXIC PEOPLE": Nancy, something`s obviously not right. Something happened to her. Obviously there was some premeditation, but something made her snap. You wonder --
GRACE: Why are you saying that?
GLASS: Was she off with medication --
GRACE: You never say that when a man kills somebody. Only when a mom --
GLASS: Well, I sure do.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: For excuses.
GLASS: No, Nancy, I`m not giving her excuses, I`m not doing anything, but you`re wondering -- the shaking bothers me. Was she -- does she have some type of disorder, neurological disorder? Is she off of medication? What prompted this behavior?
One thing I will say, she shot the daughter in the head, in the face. That is the most hostile, hateful act, and covered them up as though they didn`t exist. So that really speaks volumes.
GRACE: I want to go back to Steve Helling, "People" magazine writer.
Steve, you have analyzed extensive evidence regarding the father. Do you think he had warning that this was going to happen?
STEVE HELLING, STAFF WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: No, I don`t think he did. I think he knew that there were, you know, clashes between Julie and Calyx especially, but I don`t think he ever dreamed that it would come to this. And I think it was a surprise to him as much as it was to anybody else when he got that call when he was in Qatar that this had happened.
GRACE: To Dr. Panchali Dhar, doctor of internal medicine, author of "Before the Scalpel" joining us out of New York.
Doctor, thank you for being with us. What do you make of the wounds, Doctor?
DR. PANCHALI DHAR, M.D., INTERNAL MEDICINE, AUTHOR OF "BEFORE THE SCALPEL": All I can say is watching this woman doing what she did is -- meaning that she`s morally bankrupt. The wounds, just imagine the scenario. Skin, pieces of skull, brain tissue splattered all over the place. The scene must have been a blood bath clearly. These children shot in the head, shot in the face, had no chance of survival, impossible.
And thinking about her preexisting medical condition, it has to be a psychiatric condition. Look at her shaking. She has an anxiety disorder. I`d be interested to know if she was on some of those anti-depressants like the Paxils, Effexors, and Zoloft that trigger sometimes this type of erratic, impulsive homicidal behavior.
It`d be interesting to know she was on in any of that.
GRACE: Well, Dr. Dhar, you know half of America is on some type of antidepressant. That does not rise to the level under the law of insanity, which is -- it`s a very simple standard. Do you know right from wrong at the time of the incident, at the time of the shooting.
By her pulling up a blanket over their faces, by her -- after she shoots the daughter in the back of the head, then shooting her in the face, getting the gun permit, having the waiting period.
And then, Jean, didn`t she write out a very long, detailed written explanation of what she did?
CASAREZ: Before and after, talking about the massacre would have to wait a week, because the cooling off period to get the gun. She wasn`t aware of that. So a lot of written.
GRACE: She included that in her manifesto?
CASAREZ: Yes, she did.
GRACE: Anything else you know about what she wrote?
CASAREZ: There is more but it has not been released. She -- it is said that she went through and described exactly what she did and how she did it.
GRACE: To Remi Spencer, defense attorney, what about that? She even explains that she had to -- darn it, she had to wait before she committed double murder for that pesky cooling off period to end.
REMI SPENCER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, there are a number of issues with that. One, if this woman had been investigated and social services were involved because of potential abuse to her daughter, how is it that she can even buy a gun?
But the fact that she memorialized what she was thinking and what she was going to do in such detail as Jean describes kind of tends to show that she might in fact have a neurological or psychological problem that might support the insanity defense.
GRACE: No, it means she knew exactly what she was doing.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A child abuse case so shocking. A 9-year-old girl held captive in her own home. Officers say for the last six years, the girl`s grand parents Rivae and Brian Hart (ph) have locked her in a half bathroom and only allowed her out to go to school.
According to police reports, the couple would barricade the door with large dresser to make sure she couldn`t break free. Police were tipped off after the girl went to a school nurse here at Orville Wright Elementary where she`s a student. She told the nurse sometimes she gets dinner but is required to eat in the restroom and she sleeps on a beach towel on the floor.
We`re now learn this may not be the first time she tried to get help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Had we known sooner, of course, action would have been taken much sooner.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say a young girl has been held captive, deprived of her childhood. She gets locked in the bathroom every day after school and isn`t allowed out until the next day.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The girl allegedly forced to live in a space similar to an animal cage, just 4 1/2 feet by five feet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s absolutely no rationalization that could be given for treating a child in that manner.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The girl and her younger brother stayed at the home with their grandparents, 49-year-old Rivae Hart and 50-year-old Brian Hart, as well as the couple`s two other biological children. However, he says it was only the girl who was locked up.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Now the grand parents are in jail, charged with kidnapping and child endangerment.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A school nurse tips off police, that this little girl has been held hostage, living in a half bath in the family home? Not just for a few weeks or a few months, for six years since she was 3 years old.
Well, you know what? Her parents are going to wish they had that half bath, because tonight, they can share a metal commode, a metal toilet with all their new friends behind bars. Thank God the little girl is alive and the crazy part is, there were other children in the home that were treated normally.
To Phil Trexler, reporter with the "Akron Beacon Journal," is it true this little girl actually was an honor student?
PHIL TREXLER, REPORTER, AKRON BEACON JOURNAL: Yes, that`s the most amazing thing, Nancy, is that through six years of sleeping on a beach towel in a bathroom, this girl has made the honor roll nearly every year and she`s in the fourth grade.
It`s just -- it`s an amazing story of survival almost that this girl has been able to persevere through all these years of the allegations of being forced to stay in a bathroom the size of a prison cell for six years.
She`s thin, her hair is thin, she`s gaunt. The allegations here are really troubling and they`re really laid out very well by the "Dayton Daily News" and just the details, just -- you know, just heartbreaking.
GRACE: What do you know, Jean? What are the details?
CASAREZ: Here are the details. This is all 4 1/2 by 5 foot bathroom. There were dressers that barricaded the door so she couldn`t get out. And there was that metal cot. But no pillow. There was a blanket but no pillow and that`s how she slept in that bathroom for six years, only going out for school.
GRACE: Well, wouldn`t they just give her food in the half bath? Then she had to live in there? They would lock her in as soon as she got home from school? And then only let her out to go back to school the next day?
CASAREZ: She was occasionally let out for social occasions, but the last holiday she was let out was about 2007.
GRACE: Weigh in, CW Jensen, retired Portland police captain.
CW JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: This is absolutely horrible. And I think there`s a problem here. This little girl, she looked gaunt, she was losing her hair and things like that. And I just wonder why the teachers or other people didn`t ask questions.
And one of the things that I think should come from this story that`s so heartbreaking is ask questions. If something bothers you, if you think something is wrong, ask questions. Call the police. Call social services. Sometimes things dropped down. But I think there was a lot of people now are looking back at this going, I wish I had done more to help this girl.
GRACE: Back to Phil Trexler with the "Akron Beacon Journal." The grandparents, her parents in essence, talked to police. What did they tell them they were doing to the girl and why?
TREXLER: Well, according to the report out of Dayton, the grandparents are saying that this was a girl that was out of control and that --
GRACE: At 3? They locked her in the bathroom when she was 3.
TREXLER: Three years old. In fact, the girl was taken to a psychologist and the psychologist told the grandparents that she`s normal, she`s fine. But apparently that wasn`t the satisfactory answer to these grandparents and their decision allegedly was made to discipline this child, to control her by locking her in a bathroom and having her spend the majority of her days there.
GRACE: Where are these two henchmen of Satan tonight?
TREXLER: They`re locked up in the county jail under a $50,000 bond. They`re charged with kidnapping and child endangering. And these are felony charges that could bring them 15 years each. And they -- you know hearings coming up later this month.
GRACE: I just don`t understand how they could do this for six straight years and think they would get away with it. Well, I`m stunned they didn`t get away with it for six years.
What was their thinking, Dr. Lillian Glass?
GLASS: They obviously have so many issues of self-loathe and self- hate and allegedly this grandmother reported that she was abused herself. And that she was locked in the closet --
GRACE: Lillian, Lillian, Lillian. Don`t, don`t, don`t start with the -- she was abused.
GLASS: No!
GRACE: Don`t -- I don`t care.
GLASS: I`m not going to.
GRACE: I care what happened to this little girl.
GLASS: I`m not going to.
GRACE: Yes, you are.
GLASS: No, I`m not going to. No, I`m not. I`m going to tell you that that is one of the things -- I`m not saying that`s an excuse at all, but that is what she has said, so that makes her feel justified in terms of what she did. Not that it`s justified at all.
GRACE: And what`s so crazy, what`s so bizarre, Gloria Allred, is that there were other children in the home that were treated normally.
GLORIA ALLRED, VICTIM`S RIGHTS ATTORNEY, CHILD ADVOCATE: Well, maybe they had some concerns about a little girl, you know, that -- of course, unreasonable concerns. And -- but let me just say this, Nancy, let`s give credit to that school nurse who ultimately did what she should have done as a mandated reporter, and reported it to the authorities.
And we have efforts across the country to cut the budget for school nurses, and yet they may be the only link that little children have to getting help from the system and protection from child abuse.
GRACE: Gloria, please don`t bring up to me what they`re doing in Washington because, you know, I just don`t think I can take it.
I saw firsthand as a prosecutor representing crime victims how much the system needs that money, while they`re all in Washington yakking it up, having a steak dinner and champagne parties while they want to take money away from programs to help children like this little girl.
And isn`t it true, Jean Casarez, she had reached out before? She had tried to tell adults before?
CASAREZ: She and they didn`t do anything. And so that made her then become very introverted and not tell anybody. Btu the next-door neighbor knew, but the next-door neighbor thought that it was because of punishment. I guess just thought she should stay out of other people`s business.
GRACE: I didn`t realize, Phil Trexler, that the next-door neighbor knew. What do you know about that?
TREXLER: Well, there`s been some reports out that a neighbor has said that she heard some commotions, she`s heard shouting from there, and she says that she contacted the Dayton Police on two occasions to have them investigate the -- her suspected signs of abuse that she`s hearing from the home. The Dayton Police have yet to confirm that phone calls were made but --
GRACE: Oh no. So the police were called to the home, according to this neighbor, and did nothing, much less the DFACS, Department of Family and Children Services?
Out to the lines. Janet in Florida. Hi, Janet.
JANET, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. This story just makes me absolutely. sick. It`s disgusting how a 9-year-old girl could be locked in a bathroom. I don`t understand, however, how it is that the people who she told, adults, did not say anything.
And did they not believe her? Did they think she was lying? And also, did you say that there was other children in the house?
GRACE: There were. How many other children were in the home, Trexler?
TREXLER: Three boys there. Her biological brother and the Harts` biological sons, two sons. And all four of them of course are in foster care right now.
GRACE: Well, how old were they -- how old are they, Phil?
TREXLER: They`re all about the same age. And yes, young children and school-aged children, about 10 years old.
GRACE: And they never told anyone either?
TREXLER: No. Apparently not.
GRACE: You know, I can understand why. They were probably so afraid the same fate would befall them. They were too afraid to say this little girl would go to school practically every day and not say a thing.
Out to the lines. Rita in New York. Hi, Rita. I think I`ve got Rita. Are you there, dear?
RITA, CALLER FROM NEW YORK: Hi, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
RITA: This story makes me so sad. And I just want to know how police or social services -- had they ever been called to the home before?
GRACE: Yes, they had, Rita in New York. According to the next-door neighbor who said she would hear yelling and screaming and thought it was child abuse and called police on two separate occasions.
Everyone, these two being held at $50,000 bail at the Montgomery County Jail. They are facing life behind bars for kidnapping and child endangerment. As they should. Kept the little girl since age 3 locked in the half bath for six years. Only let her out for school and when relatives visit they said she was a problem child.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say for six years an Ohio girl was locked in a half bathroom, allegedly only let out to go to school. The space just 4 1/2 feet by 5. Police say the other kids in the home appeared to lead normal lives, so why was this 9-year-old girl allegedly so neglected?
Police say in the ultimate irony, the couple took in stray cats who appeared to be well cared for, yet the 9-year-old girl was undernourished.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So the little girl undernourished, the family cats lived better than her.
To Dr. Panchali Dhar, what physical symptoms would there have been for teachers and others to notice if they had looked?
DHAR: Well, she probably had vitamin deficiency and protein calorie malnutrition. So looking at her she`d be pale because she`d be anemic. She`d also, from the lack of exercise, have muscle wasting. She would be stunted in growth. By the way, she`s going to have delayed puberty, too, because of all these nutritional deficiencies.
And she was probably also unable to walk properly at some point because from vitamin deficiency you can get nerve damage in the brain and spinal cord. You can get chronic diarrhea. So there`s a whole bunch of things that can happen.
GRACE: You know, I`m just thinking, Dr. Dhar --
DHAR: Yes.
GRACE: -- about her walk home from school every day. How much she must have dreaded coming through that front door.
DHAR: Yes, but she did it because she didn`t know any better. So she went back to the exact same spot where she was being tortured. So she`s that -- she`s a young girl. She didn`t know what was better for her.
GRACE: Who did she try to tell, Jean?
CASAREZ: Well, she tried to tell adults when she was in first grade. We don`t know who yet. She hasn`t even told law enforcement. But they didn`t do anything.
GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Edward Myers, 21, St. Joseph, Missouri. Killed Iraq. On a second tour. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, National Defense Medal, Iraq Campaign Medal.
Loved fishing, riding bikes. Buried next to his idol, Grandfather Gerald, also served the army. Leaves behind parents, (INAUDIBLE) and Thomas, brothers James and Dennis. Sister Denise. Widow Emma Jean. Children Logan and Rebecca.
Edward Myers, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us.
Everyone, the Fourth Annual Dancing for Joan Benefit, Feb. 26th, 7:00 p.m., Marietta. Raising funds to fight lung cancer. Going to -- go to dancingjoan.org.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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