Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Uprising in Libya; Legislative Battles Over Collective Bargaining Continue in Wisconsin; Governor Walker of Wisconsin Prank Called By Talk Radio Host; Governor Walker Gives Speech About Ongoing State and Local Budget Debates In Wisconsin; Interview With Ohio Representative Dennis Kucinich
Aired February 23, 2011 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone.
First, we have just learned that the governor of Wisconsin, Scott Walker, will be speaking to reporters at the bottom of the hour. You know the story, his state's ongoing budget battle over budget cuts, collective bargaining obviously the focus there.
But there's this whole issue that has happened today we expect he possibly could be addressing today. And that is this prank phone call to him that was recorded and aired on a radio show. The governor thought he was speaking to a wealthy supporter, one of the mysterious Koch brothers, when in actuality he was being punked by a radio deejay. We will get into that in just a little bit as we take a look at what's happening in the Midwest.
But, first, I want to take you to the crisis in Libya. And stand by, because I will tell you about the fate of several hundred Americans at this hour. But first I want to show you some video out of Libya. And I want to watch this together and I will explain in just a moment. So, here is why that piece of video is significant.
This tape appears to confirm the reports that we have received that the Libyan people are being terrorized by yellow-helmeted mercenaries. I know it's kind of tough to see, but can you see some of the men, some of the yellow helmets there? There's a few there in the middle of the street there. Some are brandishing clubs, apparent thugs for hire brought in by Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi.
But here's the second point I want to make. This tape was shot late last week, late last week in the Libyan city of Benghazi. And now today we are getting reports, unconfirmed reports, I should add, that indicate Gadhafi has lost its grip, lost his control on Benghazi, the country's second largest city.
So, if so, that could be a crucial development. But hold that thought because we need to fill you in on the fate of those Americans I mentioned at the top of the hour here. At last report, the ferry that is to take Americans out of Libya to the Mediterranean island of Malta has been delayed we're hearing by some bad weather.
Hundreds of Americans, including embassy workers, they are trying to get out of there, trying to flee this escalating violence. We're also expecting to hear from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton any moment and we're expecting to hear from President Obama himself at some point speaking on what's happening there in Libya.
But here's the deal. After Gadhafi vowed yesterday to execute his opponents -- remember, he took to state TV, said this -- his supporters -- his supporters then took to the streets of Tripoli, the capital city. Let's listen to some of that. Now, reports out of the capital of Tripoli indicate that Gadhafi and his supporters are in control today.
In fact, a call had gone out on Facebook for the resistance to take to the streets today in the so-called day of rage. That didn't happen. And we will show you right now what suggests why.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOAMMAR GADHAFI, LIBYAN LEADER (through translator): He is just like bin Laden and Zawahri. They are begging for support. Do you want that the American occupy you, just Somalia, Afghanistan, just like Iraq? Do you want to be slave for the Americans?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Now, I want you to hear the sound of gunfire. Do we have that? There was gunfire that was echoing Monday night through the streets of Tripoli.
The reports we're getting today indicate Gadhafi's opponents are too fearful. His opponents are too fearful to leave their homes. But here's the thing. The reports out of Libya indicate Gadhafi's grip, while strong in the capital city of Tripoli, is in jeopardy elsewhere.
I told you about Benghazi, the country's second largest city. In fact in that rambling speech went on for more than an hour yesterday, Gadhafi singled out Benghazi, urging his supporters to hunt down his opponents. Listen to some that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GADHAFI (through translator): Do you want that the American occupy you, just Somalia, Afghanistan, just like Iraq? Do you want to be slave for the Americans? Get out, go out to the streets and chase them and arrest them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Chase them and arrest them. As we said, that speech appears to have rallied Gadhafi supporters in the capital.
But at this. Watch what happened about 100 miles east of the capital when Gadhafi's image appeared on public TV. These are images -- keep your eye on the screen, because these are images of people throwing shoes at that televised image of their leader. Look at them, four shoes there all at once on that screen against Moammar Gadhafi.
Let me show you now something else that has happened. These Gadhafi opponents are going to try to topple a symbol of Gadhafi's iron-handed rule, a likeness of Gadhafi's Green Book. OK, I know Mao had a Red Book. Apparently Gadhafi has a Green Book there, and it's going down. Look at this. So even if Gadhafi's remains in control of the capital specifically, he has mounting problems elsewhere, and that includes Tobruk, the town in the east where the uprising began.
This video shot today shows several hundred people out in the streets against Libya's longtime ruler. And as I said at the start, the fire is getting hotter.
Joining me now from neighboring Tunisia, CNN's Nic Robertson.
And, Nic, let's just begin with what you have seen today?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is a country that's being divided. Libya is being divided in two. You have Benghazi and Tobruk in the east of the country and you have Tripoli and the rest of the west of the country a different place altogether.
We're talking to people on the border here who have come out of Tripoli today. They tell us some very startling stories. And one of them is the cover-up that the Gadhafi regime appears to be putting in place to stop the videos that we're seeing getting out of the country.
A lot of the videos that we see are coming out on people's cell phones. What is the Gadhafi regime doing today? Well, I talked to people today who came along the road. They told me there are about 20 checkpoints. And at all of those checkpoints, systematically, they're being searched and people's cell phones, SIM cards, the cards with your phone number and data on it, are being removed. The cell phone data cards are being removed because that's where the video images are stored and that's what the Gadhafi regime is now doing.
They're smashing those items as they take them out of people's cell phones. We have talked to people coming along that road today. They say in the city, in the capital Tripoli Gadhafi has a firm grip. People are panicked, and they're staying in their houses. And that's why some people are fleeing while they can, Brooke.
BALDWIN: Nic, I can almost -- I think I'm hearing some of the wind. We had mentioned some of the bad weather that is delaying that boat from getting those American workers out of Libya and to the island of Malta. What have you heard? And do you have anything on that boat that's supposed to get those Americans out of there?
ROBERTSON: It's supposed to be docking right in the center of the city just close to the Radisson Blu Hotel in an area that a lot of cruise liners normally use.
I have been down there. I have on the those docks before. When there's rough weather out at sea, as there is now, and we're right on the coast here -- we're being buffeted by the storms -- it would make it hard for a large ship to get away from the dock, get out of the harbor, and get out into the sea. And that's what we're witnessing right now. And that's what appears to be the reason. We're just less than 100 miles along the coast from where that ship is docked right now. And we're experiencing a similar, similar, very stormy weather, Brooke.
BALDWIN: And bottom line, Nic, you mentioned it's this capital city of Tripoli that still seems to have Gadhafi's grip. But would it be fair to say much of the rest of the country has fallen?
ROBERTSON: We know -- we know that large of parts of east have, Benghazi, Tobruk.
But there's still -- there's still significant portions of the country -- this is a very big country -- that have not yet fallen. But the people I was talking to today say one of the reasons they're fleeing the capital right now is because they're afraid that people are going to come from these regions that have fallen, from the countryside, and try and take on Gadhafi's forces in the capital.
And they think that would be a very, very bloody and dangerous situation. And that's why they're running away. There's no indication that's happened, but this is where the situation begins to look like a civil war -- Brooke.
BALDWIN: Nic Robertson for us in nearby Tunisia -- Nic, thank you so much.
And the Obama administration, they are coming forward. They're condemning violence there in Libya, but they have not yet called on Moammar Gadhafi to step down. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is expected to speak any minute now. We're watching for that. We will bring it that you live when that happens.
Also, we just found out the governor of Wisconsin, he is going to speak live this hour. Of course, he will be talking about that big budget showdown, the thousands of protesters who have descended upon his capital of Madison. But will he also address that prank phone call he got today that a lot of people are talking about? If and when he does, we will bring it to you live. Stay there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: As promised, as if on cue, there she is, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.
I want to listen to what she's saying. Just a little bit of background: She's standing next to the Brazilian foreign minister. in fact, she just mentioned that the president will be taking a trip to South America. That's what she's talking about right now, but of course we anticipate her addressing what's happening in Libya.
Let's listen.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: I'm also pleased that last year our two countries launched the Global Partnership Dialogue to advance exchanges on economic, security and social issues. In the past year, our energy ministries have concluded a work plan for energy that will help us collaborate on advancing sustainable technologies such as hydropower, smart grid, and energy- efficient housing.
We initialed an open skies agreement that will increase the number of flights between the United States and Brazil and make pricing more competitive.
And we signed a defense cooperation agreement that will help us work together to meet the security challenges confronting us.
I also was pleased that we signed a memorandum of understanding that will help us together promote international development.
Brazil brings so much to the table when it comes to global development. And I often point to Brazil as a model. And I am delighted that --
BALDWIN: We're going to keep our eye close on Secretary Clinton.
But I want to move along for now and continue the conversation about Libya and turn now to senior White House correspondent Ed Henry.
And, Ed, just fair warning, we may have to bail on you and go back to the secretary of state if and when she addresses Libya.
ED HENRY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's fine.
(LAUGHTER)
BALDWIN: But let's talk Libya, sir. First, are you hearing anything from your post there at the White House about these Americans, these hundreds of Americans trying to leave Tripoli to Malta on that ferry?
HENRY: Oh, yes, very much so. Senior White House officials are all over that behind the scenes, in fact, making sure that these hundreds of Americans leave safely.
It's been complicated, we're told, by the fact that there's actually bad weather there on the ground. And so, in addition to the weather as a factor, security was a factor. There was an intense U.S. security to make sure that there were not any bandits or others who were there trying to disrupt this operation and certainly making sure the Libyan government was not disruptive.
So far, it appears that the Libyan government has cooperated in trying to remove -- let some of these Americans evacuate to Malta. But I think what's interesting is this evacuation points up a factor that U.S. officials are starting to point to as to why the president may have been so quiet in recent days, at least publicly, about his distaste for the crisis, which is that there are Americans there and on the ground.
BALDWIN: Right.
HENRY: And if he started attacking the dictator here, Gadhafi, that could backfire and some of these Americans could be taken as hostages.
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: That was my next question to you, Ed Henry, because a lot of people are wondering why has the president has been so reticent? Why hasn't he taken a harder stance on what is happening in Libya vs. let's say Hosni Mubarak and what we saw in Egypt?
But -- so you're saying it's because they wanted to get those Americans out of there before he said anything else.
HENRY: It's definitely a key factor. It's not the only factor.
BALDWIN: OK.
HENRY: But I'm being told it was a key factor. And look at the timing of all of this as well. We're being told this ferry is about to leave at some point soon from Tripoli. And then we also hear, oh, by the way, the president is going to come out later today or tomorrow to finally publicly address this.
It's not disconnected. There's a connection there, which is that the U.S. wanted to make sure that these Americans would safely get out. We should also point out that they're not the only Americans on the ground. Even if this ferry leaves safely, there will be other Americans there. Some of them want to stay there. Some of them believe that they will be safe and don't want to evacuate.
But I would just point out that there still is a risk. There are other Americans who will be staying behind in the days ahead. I think another quick factor is that you mentioned a few moments ago why hasn't the U.S. called on Gadhafi to step down?
BALDWIN: Right.
HENRY: Well, I was just talking to Aaron David Miller, a former Mideast peace negotiation for various U.S. administrations, who was pointing out, look, if we start getting into the business of calling for Gadhafi to step down, well, are we also going to do that with Jordan, Saudi Arabia, some of these other Middle East nations that are allies that help us and we have got sort of this bargain with them that we will sort of look the other way with how they govern their countries if they help us advance our U.S. foreign policy goals?
Witness Egypt, for example, which is the most glaring example of all, where for 30 years Democratic and Republican administrations kept a very good relationship with a repressive regime, let's face it, that was not supportive of human rights and free and fair elections.
BALDWIN: Yes.
HENRY: So if you start calling for one to step down, are you going to be consistent and have other leaders step down as well? It's a thorny question for this administration.
BALDWIN: We will wait and hear from the president. Could be later today, as you mentioned, possibly tomorrow. Perhaps this is all predicated upon that boat in getting those Americans to the island of Malta.
But before I let you go, we also can't talk about Libya without talking about oil, massively huge oil-rich country. What about concerns about that from the White House perspective?
HENRY: Well, so far, there's been no indication that Gadhafi has been trying to damage any of the oil or do anything to disrupt oil supply going around the world.
Nevertheless, you see those oil prices starting to spike. That is clearly -- and Jay Carney got this question at the briefing today with reporters -- a concern for this administration. Oil prices were already starting to climb. We see gas prices here in the U.S. as a result going up.
And as you start getting closer and closer to the spring and the summer, when Americans do more driving, traditionally, gas prices go up. If we continue to see this -- this go up, it's going to be an added concern --
(CROSSTALK)
BALDWIN: Ed, forgive me for interrupting you, but let me go -- let me go to the State Department. Here we go.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
QUESTION: -- should continue to stay in power.
And, Madam Secretary, ordinary Libyans have been reaching out to their friends, their relatives, to the international media, and they say that they're in terror. They're horrified. They're in fear of their lives.
Hundreds of people have already died. And they're wondering where is the United States at this moment? They're feeling abandoned. That's what they're telling us. Are sanctions in order here; a referral to the ICC for human rights violations? What about cutting off trade? What about putting Libya back on the state sponsor of terror list?
Where is the United States and what is it going to take for Washington to act?
Thank you.
ANTONIO PATRIOTA, BRAZILIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Well, maybe I can make a few comments here.
First of all, Brazil is very concerned with the situation in Libya. We have a number of nationals working there through companies that have been involved in several infrastructure projects, including enlarging the airport at Tripoli. And at this point, without providing any details, I'm fairly encouraged that our efforts to -- to provide a way out of the country for those who wish to depart will meet with success. This is our sincere hope.
I must say that it is a positive feature within a very complex problematic situation that so far we have not witnessed violence against foreigners in -- in Libya. Having said that, we of course were in favor of addressing the situation at the Security Council. Yesterday, there was a press statement that came out and, as you know, Brazil is the presidency of the Security Council during the month of February.
We've also associated ourselves with an initiative to call a meeting of the Human Rights Council to look at the situation in Libya. And differently from what happened in Egypt and Tunisia, what to us is a very worrying element here, is the use of force against unarmed protesters.
Otherwise, we -- we see the manifestations in northern Africa and the Arab world as a movement that can only elicit solidarity from the Brazilian people, inasmuch as it is a movement for better governance, more participation in -- in decision-making, more job opportunity, a vision of a better future for the youth of these countries. And we would like to see in whatever way possible we can support their efforts towards these objectives.
CLINTON: Well, first, let me say I think that the United States, starting with what -- what the president said on Friday, what I reiterated yesterday, has made it absolutely clear that we strongly condemn the violence in Libya, that we have called for an end to violence against protesters and those who are seeking the rights that are due to any people, anywhere.
And we deeply regret the loss of life that has already occurred. We've joined with the international community to speak with one voice because as your question implied, first we have to get the international community together because there is no doubt in my mind that this is now the moment for the international community to act together.
And, to that end, we joined a very strong United Nations Security Council statement yesterday. We are consulting closely. The foreign minister and I spoke about this a great length during our meeting. Because we are joining with the rest of the world in sending a clear message to the Libyan government that violence is unacceptable and that the Libyan -- Libyan government will be held accountable for the actions that it is taking.
Now, the way that we will proceed and the Security Council and in the Human Rights Council, is to come up with the best approaches that we think will help the people of Libya. And, remember, that must be our objective, that -- right now the situation is fluid. It is uncertain. It is difficult to get a clear understanding of everything's that's happening, everywhere throughout the country. So we are working very closely with our partners. And there are many countries that have much closer relations with Libya than we do. As you know, we haven't had those relations for many years to the extent that we had the kind of influence that other countries might be able to exercise now.
But everything will be on the table. We will look at all the possible options to try to bring an end to the violence, to try to influence the government.
But as I said yesterday, obviously, as you heard the foreign minister, in any situation, our foremost concern has to be for the safety and security of our own citizens, just as the foreign minister's concern has to be for the safety and security of Brazilian citizens.
And we are encouraging Americans to leave Libya. And we have taken the step of providing a chartered ferry boat today to take off not only all the Americans who could get to the ferryboat pier, but also other nationals from other countries. who we have offered to similarly take out of Libya.
We urge Americans to depart immediately. If they need help, they should contact the embassy or go to our Bureau of Consular Affairs Web site for information.
So we are moving on several tracks simultaneously.
QUESTION: The question is for Secretary Clinton, but we would also like Minister Patriota --
BALDWIN: We just heard from the Brazilian foreign minister. He's standing next to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. And really she just reiterated the point she had made yesterday, President Obama had made Friday, that the U.S. strongly condemns any violence on the ground in Libya.
And to her point about that chartered ferryboat that's supposed to be taking those hundreds of Americans from the capital city of Tripoli to Malta, and they were anticipating having that ferry arrive in Malta today, we have just gotten word that is not happening because of all this bad weather. So that ferryboat with all those hundreds of Americans are still in Tripoli.
I want to go to Ben Wedeman. He is the first Western journalist to enter the country of Libya and to first report from Libya.
Ben, I know we can say where you are. You are in the second most populous city of Benghazi. And if we can, just springboarding off of what we just heard from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, she said they condemn, they strongly condemn the violence there. But my question would be, would Gadhafi, would his leaders care? It's such an isolated nation. Would that message be falling on deaf ears?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Certainly, I think in Tripoli it will be falling on deaf ears. I think if you followed closely the speech of Moammar Gadhafi last night, it indicates that this is a leader who isn't really paying attention to world opinion. He's a leader who is in a corner. Half of his country is in open rebellion and the other half is a little shaky, to say the least.
He doesn't -- I think his first priority is to stay in power. And relations with the rest of the world, and particularly the United States, are not a top priority at the moment.
BALDWIN: So you're saying it would be falling on deaf ears.
My next question being the fact that you're in Benghazi and we have been reporting that Benghazi is one of the cities where Gadhafi has lost his grip on power. Does that jibe with what you're seeing here?
WEDEMAN: Oh, no -- there's no question about it.
We drove into this city and it is clearly under the control of the anti-Gadhafi forces. There's essentially a de facto local government set up in the main courthouse of the city that -- that runs almost every aspect of daily life.
They have got garbage collection. They have got a security system that protects banks and government facilities. It is very comprehensive. And the people here are listening very closely to what the United States is saying, because there's a growing feeling that the U.S. response to this crisis and its support for the anti-regime forces has not been up to what people were hoping for.
There's a concern that the longer Colonel Gadhafi stays in power in Tripoli, the worse it could get for this part of the country. They're very concerned that he may be planning some sort of military counterattack on this part of the country to punish it for what to date has been a fairly successful movement to cut his control of this part of the country.
BALDWIN: You know, Ben, I was speaking with a woman who we couldn't identify yesterday out of Libya, out of Tripoli. And she was talking to me about how she was born and raised her, how she was, her words, brainwashed into thinking that freedom -- freedom is not a right.
Is that the message you're hearing from people there in Libya?
WEDEMAN: Yes.
The -- well, the message is that, for 42 years, they really could not speak their minds, that the quality of life has just deteriorated dramatically in recent decades. And what we're seeing here is the sudden exuberant, giddy expression of finally the ability to speak their minds.
We were at a demonstration in Benghazi today. We showed up. And I felt like I was driving in the first American jeep entering Paris after its liberations in 1944. People were clapping for us, shaking our hands, throwing candy in the car window, thanking us for coming, because I think the arrival of journalists here for the people in Benghazi is a harbinger of their full liberation.
And I think there's a feeling that, finally, the world is paying attention to the plight of the people of Libya. And it was just an incredibly mind-blowing scene to watch, as thousands of people were cheering the arrival of a motley CNN crew, dirty and tired from the long trip in here.
BALDWIN: Ben, you covered, you were in the thick of things for days and days there in Cairo. And now, being in Libya, unlike Egypt, where it has remained a solid nation, there have been a lot of questions as to -- because of the tribes in Libya, if it would -- if Gadhafi goes away, if it would remain a nation state or if it would be splintered.
WEDEMAN: Well, I have spoken to a lot of people here about the whole tribal issue, and they make an interesting point.
These tribes are all intermarried. It's not little separate entities with no contact with the adjacent tribe.
One man was telling me that his wife comes from one tribe and his mother is from another, his father from a third, and that they're so intermingled that it simply isn't a case of sort of a splintered society.
They do say that Moammar Gadhafi has tried to drive division between the tribes in the hopes of, of course, being the divide and rule idea. But many Libyans have told me that simply trying -- that the tribal division has been exaggerate the by the current regime in Tripoli. And what Libyans will tell you is that they are one flesh and one body and they cannot be divided by the leader in Tripoli.
BALDWIN: Ben Wedeman, first western journalist in, first western journalist to report from Libya. We thank you for what you and your crew are dog. Stay safe. Ben.
We also want to remind you any minute now the Wisconsin governor is expected to hold a live news conference on the state's budget battle. And he perhaps will address the prank call he received today. Folks, we're back in 60 seconds. Don't move.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: It has been well over a week now since thousands of demonstrators have descended upon the capital of Wisconsin, Madison, Wisconsin, protesting this piece of legislation that would effectively eliminate collective bargaining rights for thousands of public and state workers in the state of Wisconsin.
And we're waiting -- guys, let's show the live picture - we're waiting to hear from the governor of that state, the newly elected governor, Scott Walker. We'll see him here at any moment. But for now I want to go to Kate Bolduan, who's there in Madison. Kate, just bring us up to speed as to what you've seen today and how the fight there still rages on.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It absolutely still rages on. I would say the standoff continues here in Madison, Wisconsin. The protestors are out again today, the very loud protesting. A lot the protesting going on inside the capitol building where protestors have been spending the night, sleeping there, been there around the clock for days now, moving into the second week of these protests.
The governor is still sticking strong to his position, continuing to push what this budget repair bill, as he's called it, in order to take on a budget deficit of $137 million this year and the projected budget deficit of $3.6 billion the next two years.
The governor, you summed it up very well, the governor is asking for, he calls them, modest concessions from the unions. The unions are sticking strong, a very big union presence today from the teamsters union coming out to really be very strong in their position. They say they're already offering concessions. They've already agreed to make more contributions to their pensions and to health care.
But they are not giving in on their collective bargaining rights. And that is really the sticking position, and no indications at this moment, Brooke, that either side is giving in as this continues into its second week, well into the second week here in Madison. Brooke?
BALDWIN: So as we wait to hear from Governor Walker, there's another issue that we're anticipating he'll address. That being the reports that the governor was more or less punked by a liberal blogger. In fact, we have a snippet of that audio. Let's both listen, Kate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. SCOTT WALKER, (R) WISCONSIN: Hi. This is Scott Walker.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scott, David Koch. How are you?
WALKER: I'm good. And yourself?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm very well. Little disheartened by the situation there, but what's the latest?
WALKER: We're actually hanging pretty tough. You know, amazingly there's a much smaller group of protestors. Almost all of them are in from other states.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Kate, let's back up. I want you to explain to people who may not be familiar with who the Koch brothers are who they are, and what is the government saying thus far in response to this prank call?
BOLDUAN: Yes, Brooke. There's a lot actually going into this. This is talking about the well-known billionaire brothers, Charles and David Koch. They're actually Koch Industries, the Koch industries PAC, political action committee, is one of the largest donors to governor Walker's campaign. I think it was somewhere in the area of $43,000.
They have long been supporters of very conservative, specifically fiscal conservative causes throughout the country. And this call was essentially as you said a prank call to the governor. And there was a lot of chitchat throughout this phone call, some joking about having a baseball bat in his office, joking about kind of going out to California once this whole thing is wrapped up.
But I think more so than what was said in the call is the fact that this will clearly fuel speculation of a quote, unquote, "cozy relationship" between this Republican governor and the Koch brothers Charles and David Koch.
We did get a statement from the press secretary of the governor. I want to read it in full to make sure we get it in. The statement from the press secretary definitely not denying that this call happened, press secretary saying "The governor takes many calls every day. Throughout this call the governor maintained his appreciation for and commitment to civil discourse. He continued to say that the budget repair bill" --
BALDWIN: Here he is, Kate. I'm going to break away from. Here is Governor Scott Walker.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R), WISCONSIN: I certainly in listening to the people I've got a steady beat out there, gives me a little rhythm for the press conference. I spent a good part of the day hearing from people, many e-mails some for and some against. I don't get to read all of them in that number with that many, but I've spent a fair amount of time reading through those emails, hearing from contacts from people all across the state of Wisconsin.
I'm here today working. I appreciate the fact that the state assembly is here in the capital abating the budget repair bill. I appreciate that the Senate Republicans are in the capitol preparing to debate a number of measures and hoping to be able to debate the budget repair bill.
It is my hope that later today we might get some updates from the 14 state senators who are not in the capital today, not doing their job, and that they might give us some sort of a time frame as when they plan on coming back to do their job.
I want to talk about a couple of things in the budget repair bill, just a couple of new things and then a couple of things to clarify. First off, I think it's important to talk about the impact in this budget repair bill adds it relates to the budget I'll introduce next week on March 1st.
Clearly I've said all along and I think you'll see very vividly today that this measure passing is critical to balancing the next state budget. And I'll give you some examples. We've announced today -- you received copies of this -- that this budget will provide local government governments, this budget repair bill, with provide local governments nearly $1.5 billion of savings, $1.44 billion to be exact.
Divide that out, that's for schools just under $1 billion worth of savings, $976 million, municipalities, $196 million for our counties, #128 million for our technical school systems, $116 million, and for the other special districts throughout the state it's $31 million. That's $1.5 billion worth of savings come from the measures included in this budget repair bill. That's real budget savings.
One thing I want to make abundantly clear today is those savings, the savings for local governments will exceed the reductions in state aid I will include in my budget presented to the members of the state legislature next week.
Let me repeat that. The savings that are key, the savings that come only when we pass this budget repair bill, for local governments will exceed the reductions in state aid that will be included in our budget bill for the next bi-annum next week.
That's important because if you look across the country, governors all across the United States are talking about cutting billions of dollars from schools, from local governments, from other jurisdictions. Unlike, for example, in New York and California where ironically their Democrat governors are making those cuts without giving schools and governments the tools they need to balance them, we're doing in this budget repair bill in anticipation of our budget giving those local governments the tools they're going to need to balance their local budgets with the reality that we're going to see less in terms of state aid.
In total, we have just over $1.7 billion worth of savings in this budget repair bill. It's the $300 million of savings in the next bi- annum we get from the changes we propose in this bill for state employees as well as the $1.44 billion worth of savings for local government. That's important.
And for us to lock in that savings, to have that done in anticipation of the budget bill, we need one thing and one thing in particular, and that is for those 14 state senators to come back to Wisconsin to debate this bill, to participate in democracy and allow us to move forward and the fact that they should be doing the job they were ultimately elected to do.
Secondly, this bill is about jobs. For us, the alternative is if we do not see this bill pass, we've already mentioned that for this year alone, fiscal year 2011 that ends June 30th, the total number of jobs we equated would be the equivalent of the $30 million we save by starting our wage and benefit reforms as of April 1st, is the equivalent of 1500 jobs.
As I mentioned the other morning on one of the local TV shows here in town, if we're not able to pass the bill by end ever the week, for us that ultimately means at-risk notices will have to go out and ultimately that would affect 1,500 individuals.
On top of that, if we don't achieve the savings that are generated in this budget repair bill for debt restructuring by the end of the week, we lose out by about $165 million in savings. For us we'd have to go the next step and determine whether or not that indeed means there would have to be additional at-risk notices put out in terms of additional layoffs to make up those savings as well. So clearly that's a problem.
Even more so looking ahead to the future because, again, this budget repair bill and the savings achieved through it really set us up for what's going to happen in the next budget, the equivalent of savings we'd need at the state and local level is 5,000 to 6,000 layoffs of state employees, an additional 5,000 to 6,000 local government employees would have to be laid off. That's 10,000 to 12,000 state and local government employees, government workers all across the state of Wisconsin.
Now, I have great respect for our workers, both in the government and outside of government, and I think at a time when our 7.5 percent unemployment rate is still better than the national average we can't afford to have anybody laid off adding to those numbers is unacceptable. But unfortunately we'll have little or no other choice if those Senate Democrats continue to hold out from allowing the Senate to move forward on a vote on this measure.
So again, dire consequences, and the way to get out of the dire consequences is for those 14 members or at least some of those 14 members of the state Senate to decide it's not worth holding out staying out of state to jeopardize the jobs of state and local workers.
Third, and I just talked about this, workers. I want to make this clear because this doesn't get a lot of coverage. We are asking all of our workers at the state level and at the local level to make a sacrifice. All of us who are involved in this decision making process, myself, my staff, my cabinet, the legislature are going to make that same commitment in terms of making additional payments for pension and health care contributions.
When I talk to people across this state who don't work in government, they think those are modest requests. They're modest requests for anybody outside of government. We understand, though, that to do this there has to be some shared sacrifice.
In return, however, what we're giving our workers to be mindful of not only job protection because our bill is not filled with furloughs, it's not filled with massive layoffs. Our bill protects our workers in this state and at the local level. But it also gives them an option whether or not they want to participate in their union and ultimately no longer by lawman dates that their union dues have to be deducted from their paycheck.
For some of our workers in the state, that means up to $1,000 that no longer is automatically forcibly taken out of their paycheck. Think about that. That's $1,000. In some households that might be close to $2,000 depending on where those individuals work and if both in the household work there. That's real money. That's money that those households can use to help offset the pension contribution and health care contribution. That's real money that helps the bottom line.
And we're giving those employees the right to choose when it comes to having that money taken out of their paycheck and ultimately the right to choose when it comes to being a part of the union. That's important because I think that's a benefit for our workers.
Finally, it's not just about the budget now and in the future. It's not just about jobs or workers. This is ultimately about the future of our state. You see, it's bigger than just this budget adjustment bill. It's bigger than just the next biannual budget.
For year after year after year, we've seen in this state like so many states across the country politicians that make promises and fail to deliver on them. They push the tough decisions off to the future. Well, the future is now. If we want to make a commitment to the future to ensure that not only for ourselves but more importantly to our children that they're not faced with the dire consequences we're faced with in the future, we have to deal with the problem now, not with a short-term fix.
The reason we're in this problem, the reason we face a $3.6 billion deficit is because politicians in the past have deferred the tough decisions. And now it's time for us to stand up and do what I think our children will appreciate, and that is make the tough decisions.
So again, I just want to acknowledge that I appreciate the people who are here. I certainly appreciate even those protestors here from Wisconsin. I welcome those in from other states as long as they're here to add to the debate, to inform the debate in a positive way in terms of offering opinions pro or con, but we certainly don't want individuals from outside of the state, particularly some of the national political leaders coming in from Washington and elsewhere trying to interfere with the process of having this debate. And so I appreciate you all being here.
With that, I'll take some questions.
QUESTION: Could you say at this point how the people of Wisconsin can trust that you're moving forward with -- there's a phone call recording discussing the possibility -- considering the possibility of bringing in agitators or even the possibility of trying to trick Democrats to coming back for a vote.
WALKER: For us I think it's real simple. First I want to say I take phone calls all the time. I took phone calls with small business owners earlier. This individual -- I've taken phone calls from -- I've actually talked to one of the Senate Democrats over the weekend hoping that they might be interested in finding a way to come back.
I've talked to individual taxpayers across the state. As I mentioned, mentioned last night, I've listened to people both pro and con with regard to e-mails we receive. The bottom line is the things I've said are things I've said publicly all along. The fact of the matter is, people have brought up all sorts of different options.
As you saw, if you've listened to the tape, we put that down. We said we've had a civil discourse. My greatest fear over the weekend was somehow when we had the abundance of people on either sides of the issue, both for and against, that that might somehow lead to a disturbance. That doesn't help the debate.
We've had a civil debate in Wisconsin it's a very Midwestern trait. Some have brought that up as considerations. We've had all sorts of options brought to us by staff, lawmakers, by people from all across the state. But as you heard on the tape, we dismissed that and said that wasn't a good idea.
In terms of other way to come on in, it's not a trick. We've said it point-blank. Come in and talk about it. I'm willing to talk about it. I'm willing to talk about it, but I ultimately believe it needs to lead to a vote.
I don't think that's a trick. I think that's something I've said time and time again in front of all of you here and stated very frankly. Now, I'm not going to allow one prank phone call to be a distraction from the realities that we have a job to do here. And the job is to debate this bill. And you only are able to debate it if you're in the capital focused on what's at hand. Make your case, make your argument. But you can't make that by fleeing to another state. Patrick?
BALDWIN: OK, so that was newly elected Republican Governor Scott Walker there speaking in the capital of Madison. I want to remind all of you that we have Kate Bolduan on the ground there. We also have Gloria Borger in Washington to help us with a national perspective.
But Kate, I want to go to you. There was a quick reference at the end to the prank phone call, calling it a distraction. But it seemed to me listening to five-plus minutes he was really speaking to those state senators, those Democrats, who are still not in the state. They fled to Illinois last Thursday to avoid this as they would say union-busting vote. Any indication they're coming back?
BOLDUAN: There's no indication so far that the Democratic senators, state senators, those 14 people, are going to be coming back anytime soon. They have not given a date certain. They've indicated one way or another that they know they can't stay away forever, but they say they had said earlier on they're prepared to stay away for weeks if need be.
And a lot of what you heard from the governor there is stuff he's said in the past couple of days, talking about really trying to push his point of why this bill is worth it in his mind and why these measures are needed and also trying to turn the focus -- I know Gloria would agree with this -- on the Democrats, saying that they're not doing their job, they're not helping out the democratic process right now by running away from the issue. He's trying to turn the focus on them saying let's get the debate going and goat them back in the capital. Of course then the underlying message there is if they do come back into the capital and they move towards the votes, the Republican have a strong enough voting majority in the Senate to pass this.
BALDWIN: The Democrats, as Candy Crowley told me a couple of days, they will lose. Kate Bolduan, thanks to you and speaking up.
Let's go to Gloria. Gloria, I want you to pick up kind of where Kate left off with the fact that we just heard from Governor Walker and she was right. His big focus is hey, you state senators, you Democrats, you've been a no show.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right, and he tried to set the stage for this saying, look, if we don't approve this what he calls a budget repair bill we're going to lose $1.5 billion. This is going to cost us jobs. I think he said it would have dire consequences.
So what he's trying to do is pull back and say, you know, this isn't just about you, you know, labor union members. This is about the entire state of Wisconsin, and this is going to cost other people jobs because we can't approve this budget.
So he was trying to say, you know what? You need to come back, or the consequences will be terrible for this state, and the voters won't forget it. But I saw a governor there, Brooke, who is sticking to his guns, who is not backing down, not one inch.
BALDWIN: And he did mention sort of his addendum as part of the Q&A, the prank phone call from that buffalo radio deejay pretending to be David Koch. He just mentioned that was a distraction. I imagine Governor Walker kind of wants to sweep that one under the rug.
BORGER: You think so? You know, I talk to a lot of people and this is, you know -- I talk routinely to a lot of people, and I'm not going to let this get in the way of the job that I'm doing.
You know what's really interesting, Brooke, is that Mitch Daniels, the governor of Indiana, has a very similar situation, and today in Indiana they actually pulled a right-to-work bill off the floor with the governor saying, you know what, these are important issues that we need to address, but now is not the right time or the place.
So it's clear that while governors agree, Republican governors agree with Governor Walker in principle, I think you're going to see some divisions about whether or not this is the right time to be doing this.
BALDWIN: Gloria Borger, good perspective. Thank you.
BORGER: Sure.
BALDWIN: And staying on this topic in just a couple of minutes I'll be speaking with Ohio Democrat Dennis Kucinich joining me live - there he is. I appreciate his patience in listening to all that, and I'm sure he listened to Governor Walker. I'll ask the congressman about the budget battle in his state, specifically what he could see being cut, and I'll have a response to Ohio governor John Kasich who told me yesterday that he is not trying to take down the unions. That is coming up. Don't miss that.
Also, we just got word that President Obama is expected to speak live today, 5:15 eastern time, and he will be addressing the situation, the eroding situation in Libya. Be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BALDWIN: Well, we just heard from the Wisconsin governor on the whole state budget clash that we've been seeing spread out, and that clash has spread out into Ohio. Protesters are descending upon Ohio's state capitol of Columbus, and it's in budget fights that have many, many public workers and their ability to collectively bargain now caught in the crosshairs.
Here is Dennis Kucinich, a Democratic congressman from Ohio. And Congressman Kucinich, I appreciate you coming on here. And I simply want to get your opinion here on collective bargaining as a budget- balancer. But first I spoke yesterday live with the Ohio governor, Governor John Kasich. I want to play some of what he had to say and get your reaction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. JOHN KASICH, (R) OHIO: We believe that at least in the last year the collective bargaining agreements have driven up our costs by a couple hundred million dollars. And in addition to that, local governments are going to get fewer resources from us.
Part of this is to give managers the tools to decide what they want to do. Now, if you're running a city and you want to give organized labor, you can. But if you also are a manager and you need to control your budgets, then don't deny them the tools.
And by the way, I come from a labor town. And this is not any effort on my part to try to go after organized labor. It is all part of a package designed to let Ohio succeed because we have been getting crushed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BALDWIN: Congressman Kucinich, your reaction?
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D -OHIO): Well, the fact that our governor in Ohio would include severing collective bargaining rights while telling workers he wants to talk to them about how much they would be paid not only defies logic, but it also defies the democratic process.
What Governor Kasich is doing it adopting a corporate, top-down approach telling workers this is what we're going to pay you whether you like it or not. Collective bargaining is about equality and giving workers an opportunity for workers to negotiate their wages and working conditions. Governor Kasich apparently has no tolerance for that, and it's the wrong mentality, frankly, for democratic governance.
BALDWIN: You say it's wrong mentality, but your party, the Democrats lost the election in Ohio. What makes Democrats think that they have the support to go up against this Republican governor who is very much so pushing this elimination of collective bargaining rights? What makes you think you have the support?
KUCINICH: Well, the idea of collective bargaining isn't the province of any party. As had you in your earlier report there are Republican governors having second thoughts about whether or not they want to crush unions.
The idea of collective bargaining is really a principle of an economic democracy, of making sure that workers have an even chance to negotiate their wages and benefits. That Governor Kasich would just decide no to collective bargaining, that, you know, he sees it as only a financial issue but there's an issue with respect to democratic governance.
And with respect to Governor Walker, he says he is concerned about workers. How can you be concerned about workers if you want to wipe out their rights to bargain collectively? It's fundamental.
BALDWIN: You obviously disagree wiping out what the heart of the unions say is their right to bargain. But then what solutions would you argue. No matter what side you argue, there's a massive budget hole in Ohio. It's $8 billion. How do you propose you close it? Would you raise taxes?
KUCINICH: You talk to workers representatives and anywhere and they are ready to negotiate their conditions and their benefits. But what you can't do is equip a governor or a mayor or a president, for that matter, to just tell people this is what you're going to get paid, take it or leave it. Sit down and shut up. You don't treat people like that in a democracy.
And once you start legitimizing that, what you do is set the stage for a breakdown in civil discourse. You set the stage for a disintegration of the social compact.
BALDWIN: I understand, but can you give me, congressman, can you give me one solution, one specific solution how you could help close the budget.
KUCINICH: Well, you know, if you're looking at the discussion in Wisconsin, I understand that the governor there essentially revoked a tax increase that went to people in the higher incomes that created an even greater deficit in Wisconsin. And I think that you have to look at corporations and at the wealthiest individuals in a society accepting a fair share of the burden of taxation.
Now, you know, middle class people and working class people are already paying a lion's share of the taxes federally. The burden of taxation has shifted more and more on to the middle class in this country.
And I think that we ought to look at how taxes are structured in every state to make sure that corporations are paying a fair share and to make sure that those who make the most are paying a fair share.
BALDWIN: Representative Dennis Kucinich, live for me from Capitol Hill, sir, I appreciate the conversation. Thank you.
KUCINICH: Thank you. Thank you very much.
