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Nancy Grace
Couple Beats 3-Year-Old to Death for Wetting His Pants; Mom Eats Pizza while 3-year-old Son is Dying; Dad Vows to Kill Son`s Murderer
Aired March 09, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, live, Florida. EMTs and police race to an Orlando home after a 911 call about a little 3-year-old boy struggling to breathe. Paramedics arrive, try everything. They fail.
Bombshell tonight. Doctors first blame meningitis for little Noah`s death, but autopsy leads straight back to Mommy. In a gut-wrenching twist, cops now believe baby Noah beaten, beaten over an hour by Mommy and her live-in. Why? Over wet pants. And while little Noah struggles to breathe, where`s Mommy and the live-in? Oh, they`re eating pizza and watching a movie! Yes, enjoy that pizza, Mommy -- in hell!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say the mother of a 3-year-old toddler, Noah Fake, fatally beat her son with the help of her boyfriend, and the couple orders up a pizza while the boy was clinging for life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Robin Greinke, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. You`re charged with first degree murder, aggravated child abuse and aggravated manslaughter of a child. You`re to be held without bond on each of those matters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The couple, police say, punched, kicked and shoved the boy into the wooden-frame sofa because he wet his pants.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They explained how they tossed the little boy around. They were upset with him and they tossed him and spanked him and punched him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The couple allegedly drank beer and hit the child numerous times, then watched a movie after the deadly attack, waiting until the next morning to call 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They both beat the baby. And she was very apologetic, but obviously, it`s too late now. He`s gone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother, 26-year-old Robin Greinke, and her boyfriend, 33-year-old Steven Neil, now behind bars and denied bail, both charged with first degree murder, aggravated child abuse and child neglect.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, live, Rhode Island. He kidnaps and murders a 5- year-old little boy, then reportedly eats the child like a cannibal, then displays the skull and bones on his bedroom dresser. A plea deal sends the killer behind bars for 40 years. Breaking now. In a stunning twist, we learn the child killer set to walk years early. But he may not walk free for long. The little boy`s dad announces when the killer walks free, he`s a dead man.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The father of a murdered 5-year-old boy says he will murder his son`s killer after reports emerge the killer will soon be released from prison. The boy`s father, John Foreman, appeared on the John DePetro (ph) radio show on 630 WPRO.
JOHN FOREMAN, FATHER: I do intend -- if this man is released anywhere in my vicinity or if I can find him after the fact, I do intend to kill this man.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The man convicted of killing 5-year-old Jason Foreman, Michael Woodmansee, pled guilty to second degree murder as part of a plea deal to avoid the family hearing the details of the gruesome murder.
FOREMAN: This is another reason why this man should not be released. He ate the flesh of my son!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now reports say Woodmansee could be released from prison 12 years earlier than expected due to time off for good behavior. Jason`s father, John Foreman, has reportedly told local media that if Woodmansee does get out of prison, Foreman intends to kill Woodmansee as, quote, "aggressively and painfully" as Woodmansee killed Foreman`s little boy.
FOREMAN: The only way I have of meeting with him is with this knife I have here in my hand for him. That`s the only way. I`ll stab him like he stabbed my son.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. Live to Florida. EMTS and police race to an Orlando home after a 911 call about a little 3-year-old boy struggling to breathe. Doctors first blame meningitis for little Noah`s death, but autopsy leads straight back to Mommy. In a gut-wrenching twist, cops now believe baby Noah beaten by Mommy and her live-in. Why? Over wetting his pants. And while little Noah struggles to breathe, struggles to live, where`s Mommy? Where`s the live-in? Eating pizza and watching a movie. Must be Friday night date night. Yes, enjoy that pizza, Mommy -- in hell!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A 3-year-old toddler, Noah Fake, is dead after his mother and her boyfriend allegedly beat him to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us what happened to Noah?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-six-year-old Robin Greinke had nothing to say to us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have nothing to say for yourself?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say the torture went on for an entire hour. Then the couple went on to enjoy their evening with dinner and a movie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She told investigators that she and her boyfriend, 33-year-old Steven Neil, beat her son to death because he wet his pants.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then ordered a pizza.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Joe Gomez, reporter, KTRH News Radio, joining us out of Houston, Texas, tonight. Joe, they enjoyed a pizza and a movie while the child is struggling to breathe?
JOE GOMEZ, KTRH NEWS RADIO: Nancy, there are hardly any words to describe what kind of horror story this is, a 3-year-old boy beaten to death by his mother and her boyfriend for wetting his pants? On this particular night, police say the mother and her boyfriend were apparently having a little bit of a party. They were popping pills and kicking back a couple of beers. So when they find out that their little boy had had an accident, they got upset. Her boyfriend starts pummeling the child, tossing him around like a rag doll and ramming him into furniture. Mommy joins in, pinching him on the cheeks and poking him in the chest.
And then as the boy lies dying on the floor, instead of calling for an ambulance, Nancy, they pop in a movie and order a pizza. In fact, it wasn`t until the next day that they called an ambulance because the mother was woken up by the boy`s struggled breaths. They concocted this story that perhaps he had fallen in the play gym or he had suffered a seizure. But now, Nancy, sadly, we know the horrible truth.
GRACE: You know, Joe Gomez, has the mother been formally charged? I haven`t even gotten to the live-in yet. Has the mother been formally charged and indicted yet?
GOMEZ: Yes, she has been formally charged with first degree murder, also a few other counts of child assault, Nancy.
GRACE: So with those counts -- out to you Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "in Session," I see absolutely no reason these two should not face the death penalty. Is anything stopping us from seeking the death penalty?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": No. Let`s look at the counts -- first degree murder, aggravated child abuse and child neglect. In Florida, felony murder, a killing during the commission of aggravated child abuse. You bet.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Nancy in Missouri. You are seeing shots of baby Noah. You know what? I can`t tell you how long I have been working on the twins` Easter photo album. I`m just trying to get it done before the next Easter comes. And I was looking at those pictures, Pat Brown. Before I came to work, I finally got all of the photos in. And thinking back -- this was last year. You know, they were just about to turn 3 at that time. They were so defenseless, so helpless, so precious. And how a mother could not only hit her child that way but stand by and let somebody else beat the child. Pat Brown, weigh in.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, Nancy, you know, you and I both feel the same way about our children. And when they came into the world, we could just sit there and stare at them for hour after hour after hour because they were the most beautiful, wonderful things in the world.
This woman does not think that way about her child, nor her little boyfriend. And the most telling statement I heard was when the woman called 911 -- I don`t want to call her a mother -- when the woman called 911, she said, you know, she had -- she was having problems sleeping because of child`s breathing, not the child was having trouble sleeping because of his breathing, but she was having trouble sleeping. Well, talk about narcissism at the highest level, she was still more concerned about herself than that poor dying child.
GRACE: And look at these two idiots. I don`t know that I`d have the backbone to look, the audacity to look in the camera. But look at them. They don`t care.
I mean, unleash the lawyers, Ray Giudice, Christopher Amolsch. I`m sure you`re going to disagree with me. Let me see those mugshots, Liz. Just look at them! They don`t care! They don`t think they did anything wrong. Look at them, Ray, Giudice! How`d you like to defend those two at trial?
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, I would do my job, but I would take what Jean pointed out about the death penalty very seriously. And I would counsel my client, whichever one I had, that if you ever thought of taking a plea, do it early, do it now, because the other defendant might not get the deal.
GRACE: What about it, Amolsch? What does he mean by that, the other defendant won`t get the deal? He`s right.
CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, they`re going to look to see who will roll on the other one first. And it sounds like the mom is the one who took most of the blame, though. It sounds like from her statement that she was the one who did most of the beating or...
GRACE: I didn`t get that at all!
AMOLSCH: I`m sorry...
GRACE: Where`d you get that?
AMOLSCH: You`re right. I`m sorry. Like the guy did most of the beating.
GRACE: Did it together, Amolsch!
AMOLSCH: Well, I don`t actually have the shot up here, so I can`t actually see it. But it seems to me like the guy was the one who did most of the beating. And they`re going to look to the mom first to roll on him, I think.
GRACE: Well, here`s the thing. Here`s the thing. He may have done most of the beating, but she`s the mother. It`s her duty to that child. That is her new duty. That`s her new job. When you give birth, your new job is mother. She was responsible to protect that child.
To Nancy in Missouri. Hi, Nancy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First I`d like to tell you you`re so blessed to have your beautiful twins.
GRACE: Amen. Amen. Because listen, Nancy, I don`t know how old you are, but getting pregnant at 47 is not easy. Let me just put that out there.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m 55. I would never dream of it! I don`t have children. I do not want children. But that`s by choice. But I have some stepgrandchildren and I love them to death. I do want to ask, can this mother now turn around and blame the beating on her boyfriend and say, I was afraid of him?
GRACE: Oh, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So she could get off.
GRACE: Nancy, you should be a lawyer because I guarantee you, that`s where this will go. Wendy Walsh, don`t you just see it coming now? Wah, wah, wah. Eh, eh! I was afraid, so I let him beat my child to death. That`s where it`s going, Wendy! I know that`s where it`s going! She`s going to come in, true or not...
WENDY WALSH, PSYCHOLOGIST: I agree.
GRACE: ... and claim she was beaten, too.
WALSH: Exactly. And she was so scared in that situation. But I`m sorry. I have small children, too. I would come between any perpetrator and my kid and jump between them. And this mother was probably on drugs and alcohol, and they`re uneducated people, probably, who thought just slam him around and give him a whupping. You think that`s going to keep him...
GRACE: Hey! Hey! Hey!
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Hey! Wait a minute, Wendy Walsh. Just because you have a Ph.D. does not mean people without a Ph.D. don`t love their children. Don`t even start saying this has something to do with education!
WALSH: No. I mean...
GRACE: This has to do with what is right and what is wrong!
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives say Neil convinced Noah`s mom to wait until the next day to call for help.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do we know why that he was beaten so badly?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s an indication there was alcohol involved, you know, prior to the incident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were upset with him and they tossed him and spanked him and punched him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the word is that the youngster soiled his pants, which caused one or both parties to become upset.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When she noticed Noah wasn`t breathing, they finally called 911. Doctors originally thought Noah was sick with meningitis because of his bruises. But an autopsy showed he had, in fact, been beaten to death. Homicide detectives interviewed the mother again, and she confessed that they both hurt her son.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother admitted, full confession, on how they both beat the baby. And she was very apologetic, but obviously, it`s too late now. He`s gone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to the arrest report, the mother told the detectives the beating went on for about an hour and included her boyfriend grabbing and forcibly throwing with velocity Noah Fake head first into the lower wooden portion of the living room sofa multiple times. The child`s mother also admitted she participated in the attack by poking him several times in the middle of his chest, squeezing his facial cheeks very hard and kicking him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Kat in Florida. Hi, Kat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks so much for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just have one quick question. Did they find any evidence of drugs in the house? This sounds like crack behavior. I don`t know.
GRACE: That is a good question. Out to you, Joe Gomez. You know, it would be easy for all of us to blame this on, Oh, they were high on crack. How about they were just mean?
GOMEZ: That`s right, Nancy. You know, I mean, both did subsequently admit that they had been pumping some sort of prescription drugs. They also admitted they were consuming some kind of alcoholic beverage. I mean, but the point is, a 3-year-old boy, you know, wets himself and gets tortured like this by his mother and her boyfriend? I don`t know if you can associate with that drugs, or as you say, Nancy, just plain meanness, for goodness sakes!
GRACE: To Andrew J. Scott, former chief of police, Boca Raton, president, AJS Consulting. So the mother is making it out that she just kind of joined in while the live-in was beating her child to death. What, does that make her in her mind -- do you see this when you`re taking defendants` statements, they think that somehow, because they didn`t play the major role, they`re not responsible?
ANDREW J. SCOTT, FMR. CHIEF OF POLICE, BOCA RATON: Well, absolutely. There`s always a deflection of one person amongst two that always say they play a lesser role. The mother is trying to shield herself from her boyfriend, who actually was a participant in this. And this is what we`ve seen over and over in abuse cases, particularly when there`s two individuals. However, the mother cannot shield herself from the fact that she participated and confessed to actively participating. So it`s not going to work in this instance, Nancy.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. I want to go back to the lawyers, Raymond Giudice and Christopher Amolsch. I don`t know if the two of you have noticed, but I`ve noticed when there is a child victim -- and don`t bother to tell me, either one of you, that this is not true, because I know it is true. When there`s a child victim, very often we see the case pled down to voluntary manslaughter instead of murder one, I guess under the theory, that, Oh, the child was screaming and they were frazzled and they were tired and they lost control. I don`t think that`s right.
GIUDICE: Well, I don`t disagree with you when there`s a parent involved as one of the culprits or one of the perpetrators, I think, statistically, you are backed up. I don`t necessarily think it`s right. But we also see it in cases where cases get pled down to, like you say, voluntary manslaughter because it`s an accident, they were under stress. It seems to play to juries.
GRACE: But how are they going to paint this one as an accident, Amolsch? OK, focus, Amolsch. Keep it in the middle of the road, friend. Come on!
AMOLSCH: What they`re going to say is the reason he`s been indicted on three different charges is because the police themselves or the cops aren`t sure of the level of culpability. You`ve got first degree murder. You`ve got the aggravated felony that goes along with the murder. The parents are going to...
GRACE: No, no, no, no.
AMOLSCH: The parents are going to say that they didn`t mean to kill the kid. In fact, the doctor had misdiagnosed him when the first got there. The kid died as a result of their actions. There`s no question. But there really...
GRACE: No! No! You know why the doctor...
AMOLSCH: ... is a place here to plead this down.
GRACE: ... misdiagnosed it, Amolsch? Because, Jean Casarez, didn`t the parents come up with all these stories, including meningitis, they were going to try to fake out the doctors and the cops?
CASAREZ: Yes. They said the child had a seizure and must have died because of meningitis. There was no meningitis.
GRACE: Oh, yes! They were high. That`s why. They weren`t so high they couldn`t come up with a batch of lies to tell police and to tell the EMTs. And guess what? It almost worked. But guess what, Mommy. It didn`t.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The mother and boyfriend allegedly lied to police, telling emergency responders that Noah could have fallen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Robin Greinke, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. You`re charged with first degree murder, aggravated child abuse and aggravated manslaughter of a child. You`re to be held without bond on each of those matters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The couple punched, kicked and shoved the boy into the wooden-framed sofa.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, you`re charged with first degree murder, aggravated child abuse and aggravated manslaughter of a child. You`re to be held without bond on each of those matters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say the mother of a 3-year-old toddler, Noah Fake, fatally beat her son with the help of her boyfriend, that she and her boyfriend, 33-year-old Steven Neil, beat her son to death because he wet his pants. And the couple orders up a pizza while the boy was clinging for life. But autopsies showed he had, in fact, been beaten to death.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The child was later pronounced dead at the hospital. The cause of death, force blunt (SIC) trauma.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty-six-year-old Robin Greinke and her boyfriend, Steven Neil, have been charged with first degree murder. It involves the death of the mother`s 3-year-old son, Noah Fake.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: So while the baby, the 3-year-old baby struggles to breathe, Mommy and her live-in order a pizza and watch a movie. I guess it was Friday night date night, pizza and a movie. Look at these two. The baby struggling to breathe after they beat him for over an hour. Why? Because he wet his pants.
Back to the lawyers, Raymond Giudice, Atlanta, Christopher Amolsch, Washington, D.C. You know, Amolsch, I let you go on. You know, I don`t mean to target you. I`ll be back on Giudice in just a moment. But you said that they were confusing their charging decisions because they had so many different charges. No, they`ve charged with one count of murder one, first degree murder. They`ve charged with aggravated child abuse and aggravated child neglect.
I don`t see any confusion. They are not charged with a lesser count, which is voluntary or involuntary manslaughter. But Amolsch, isn`t it true that at trial, a jury could feel pity on her and give a lesser sentence, if they wanted to?
AMOLSCH: For sure. (INAUDIBLE) they`re going to have a much easier time making the aggravated murder from the aggravated child abuse than they are going to make the first degree murder charge. The first degree murder charge is a real stretch.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Kelly in -- excuse me. Out to the callers. Kelly in Texas. Hi, Kelly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a question for you. By any chance, did the mother or boyfriend have a criminal history prior to this?
GRACE: Well, obviously, Kelly, you`re clairvoyant because I called for that in our commercial break and just have it in my hand right now. The boyfriend, the live-in -- disorderly conduct, drugs, resisting arrest and a DUI. So even when he`s faced with a full-grown police officer, he resists arrest. And this mother let a man like that attack her child? Not only let him, she joined in. We know you`re not afraid of the death penalty. Prove it!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The boy suffered injuries at their own hands.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives say the pair had been drinking, possibly taking pills, and attacked 3-year-old Noah Fake for an hour.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say the mother of a 3-year-old toddler, Noah Fake, fatally beat her son with the help of her boyfriend, and the couple orders up a pizza while the boy was clinging for life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Robin Greinke, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right . You`re charged with first-degree murder, aggravated child abuse and aggravated manslaughter of a child. You`re to be held without bond on each of those matters.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The couple, police say, punched, kicked and shoved the boy into the wooded frame sofa because he wet his pants.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They explained how they tossed the little boy around. They were upset with him and they tossed him and spanked him and punched him.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The couple allegedly drank beer and hit the child numerous times, then watched a movie after the deadly attack, waiting until the next morning to call 911.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They both beat the baby. And she was very apologetic. But obviously it`s too late now. He`s gone.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The mother, 26-year-old Robin Greinke and her boyfriend, 33-year-old Steven Neil, now behind bars and denied bail. Both charged with first-degree murder, aggravated child abuse and child neglect.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Well, it`s not as if everybody didn`t have warning. I`ve got a 2008 document in my hand and at least one mother cared more about her child`s safety than she did about keeping this good-for-nothing man shacked up in her house.
Here`s the dissolution of marriage and this is from the live-in, Steven Neil`s ex-wife. It`s filed May 2008. "He cornered me on our balcony and threatened to throw me out -- over the building. He then proceed to tell me he`s going to chop me up and throw me into the ocean. I called 911, the cops arrived, I decided to take my 14-month-old son out of the home and stay at my mom`s home in Jupiter."
Respondent -- defendant calls my cell phone and leaves violent messages telling me he`s going to kill me, and I better watch out for him. He has been arrested or domestic and battery charges on me before.
OK, Wendy Walsh, explain the psychology of a woman who thinks it`s more important to have a man, a romantic love object in her life than to protect her child?
WENDY WALSH, PHD., PSYCHOLOGIST, EXPERT, MOMLOGIC.COM: It`s so, so sad. What happens is women fall in love with hope. They fall in love with a man`s potential. And it`s all in their imagination anyway. Now I don`t know that this current mother knew about his past history. That`s not for sure that she did a criminal background check and saw those police reports.
But she`s certainly -- probably into the fantasy that said, but he`s different with me. Because he loves me. I`m the one. And that`s the crazy cycle that women get into because they want to have a man there to protect them and maybe -- I don`t know who is paying bills.
GRACE: To protect them?
WALSH: I know. Protect them and then he turns out to be --
GRACE: I don`t think that`s what they`re after. They`re not getting any protection. She probably paid for the pizza that night.
To Dr. Howard Oliver, former deputy medical examiner, forensic pathologist, joining us out of L.A.
Dr. Oliver, thank you for being with us. What did this child go through before he finally went to heaven?
HOWARD OLIVER, FMR. DEPUTY MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: When he was battered on his head, it probably caused at least contusions and probably some sort of hemorrhage, (INAUDIBLE) or subdural. This would have caused his brain to swell overnight. The swelling of the brain would have pushed the brain down into the opening of the spinal cord to frame a magnum (ph). This would have caused his --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK. Wait, wait. Dr. Oliver, let me ask you in a different way. Can I just believe that after a couple of blows he was out of it and he didn`t suffer? Is there any way that that could be true?
OLIVER: No. He apparently suffered because they were beating him for an hour. So apparently he was reacting. I wouldn`t think that they would continue to beat him if he was unconscious. So he suffered for at least an hour and probably some time after that.
GRACE: You know, Ray, what do you do with that?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, you know, we`ve just proven in the last few moments or alleged that the boyfriend was a drunk, a drug abuser, fought with law enforcement and beat the first wife.
Maybe we`re starting to develop a real battered woman`s syndrome defense for the mother. Maybe there`s more out there. Maybe there`s prior domestic abuse of her. We`ve alleged no criminal behavior on her part this evening or shown no evidence of it. It may not be without merit, Nancy.
GRACE: Wait a minute. Back to you. Joe Gomez. Jean Casarez.
First to you, Joe. Didn`t she say she joined in the beating?
JOE GOMEZ, REPORTER, KTRH NEWS RADIO: That`s right, Nancy. You know she pinched her --
GRACE: Put Giudice up.
GOMEZ: -- her baby`s cheeks. She pinched her baby`s cheeks. She poked him in the head.
GRACE: I said put Giudice up.
GOMEZ: She did nothing --
GRACE: Listen to this, Raymond Giudice.
GIUDICE: I`m listening. I`m hearing.
GRACE: Go ahead, Gomez.
GOMEZ: She did nothing while he was laying there (INAUDIBLE) on the ground struggling to breathe. She did nothing. She didn`t call 911. She didn`t call 911 when she went to bed. She finally did it when she woke up and certainly because the wheezing woke her up, the struggled breaths of her little boy woke her up. Only then when it interfered with her sleep apparently did she finally take action, Nancy.
GRACE: You know, Raymond Giudice, I don`t think battered women`s defense, OK, and I worked in the battered women`s center for 10 years as a volunteer.
GIUDICE: I know you did. I know you did. I know. I don`t throw it around.
GRACE: You have her ordering a pizza and having a beer, a little Brewsky, and watching a movie and going to sleep. I don`t think it`s going to cover that.
GIUDICE: Nancy, my point is 15 minutes ago we didn`t know that about him. And the more we hear about him and the case is early, the defense may be able to develop that theory of defense. That`s what I`m saying.
GRACE: You know, Amolsch, please stop the crazy talk. Just put the truth out there, all right?
CHRISTOPHER AMOLSCH, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it`s --
GRACE: Joining in the beating of your child is not conducive to a battered women syndrome defense.
AMOLSCH: That`s not an ideal set of circumstances for a battered woman`s defense.
GRACE: That`s a good way to put it.
AMOLSCH: For sure. I think the far more likely defense is that they didn`t realize how badly they had beaten him. And they didn`t intend to kill him, though that may ultimately would be to happen.
GRACE: You know, that`s like the people who hold a gun to your face and pulled the trigger, oh, I just meant to scare you. Sorry you`re dead.
OK. Out to the lines. Jacqueline in Florida. Hi, Jacqueline.
Karen in Alabama, hi, Karen.
KAREN, CALLER FROM ALABAMA: Hi, Nancy. I want to tell you how much we love your show. And my question for you is, can you tell me, has this family -- this mother and the stepfather, whatever he was, did family services, were they ever contacted and maybe go to the home or anything like that.
GRACE: Good question. Good question.
Jean Casarez, do we know whether DFACS have been out there -- the Department of Family and Children Services?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Yes, we know. The answer is no.
And Nancy, autopsies showed that there were scarring and injuries of that little boy in various stages to prove that he had been abused before. Additionally that little boy died through the whole night while that couple slept until the mother called at 5:00 a.m. At any point of time she called have taken that phone and called 911.
GRACE: You know what, Jean?
CASAREZ: And that`s an aggravating factor for sentencing.
GRACE: Well put. Jean, I just saw while you were talking a very scary sight. It was a little boy in a stroller. It was a double stroller. Is there another baby in that home?
CASAREZ: Not that I remember. No. I think this was her only child, but it doesn`t mean that they didn`t associate with other children.
GRACE: So Joe Gomez, is the state going to seek the death penalty or not?
GOMEZ: That remains to be seen, Nancy. This is a horrible case. What do you think?
GRACE: Well, in cases like this typically, they do not. That maybe if we hold a little heat to them we might get justice for baby Noah.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The child was later pronounced dead at the hospital. The cause of death, forced blunt trauma. The youngster was beaten to death.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Both the mom and boyfriend now behind bars and held on no bail.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A Rhode Island man who is convicted of brutally murdering a 5-year-old boy is reportedly set to be released from prison early. And the victim`s father allegedly says if the man who murdered his son does get out of prison, he will kill him. The boy`s father, John Foreman, appeared on the "John DePetro Radio Show" on 630 WPRO.
JOHN FOREMAN, FATHER OF MURDERED 5-YEAR-OLD BOY: I`m beside myself. I can`t think. I can`t sleep. All I think about is trying to find a way to get to this man to kill him. That`s my every thought.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: 52-year-old Michael Woodmansee killed 5-year-old Jason Foreman and hid the boy`s bones inside his home for years.
FOREMAN: He ate the flesh of my son. He`s a cannibalism person. A murderer, cannibalism person.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: While Woodmansee was sentenced to serve 40 years in prison, he`s reportedly scheduled for release in just a couple of months.
FOREMAN: I`m going to kill him no matter where he is. So they don`t want to release him.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Jason`s father John Foreman reportedly told local radio stations that if Woodmansee is released from prison, he intends to kill him.
FOREMAN: I just need that other information so I can kill him as aggressively and as painfully as he killed my son.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To David Lohr, crime reporter with AOLNews.com joining us from Erie.
David Lohr, take me back. What happened? What are the facts in the case?
DAVID LOHR, CRIME REPORTER, AOLNEWS.COM: Well, Nancy, it was on May 18th, 1975. Jason was out playing with his brother and some friends. While they were out playing together they got in a little bit of a dispute. So Jason decided to walk home early.
On his walk home, it took him right by the suspect`s home in this case. And he invited him inside, helped him with something. When the boy got inside he sexually assaulted him, stabbed him one time in the chest, and then he stood over his body for about an hour just to make sure he was dead.
Once he felt the child was no longer living, he put him in a plastic bag, dragged him down in the basement, wrapped him up in carpet, and threw him in an old trunk. And the kid remained there for about four or five years, basically forgotten about.
GRACE: You know, Ellie Jostad, I know that David said forgotten about. But he was not forgotten about, was he?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: No, Nancy. And this was one of the biggest searches in Rhode Island history. They had hundreds of volunteers out looking for this little boy. They even searched all the homes in the neighborhood, except for the killer`s home.
And that`s because his father was a police reservist. He was ordered by a supervisor to search his own home. So the body was never found, even though it was in a trunk just down the street from where this boy`s family lived. For years.
GRACE: To John DePetro, joining us from 620AM WPRO. Fast forward these years later. What`s happening now?
JOHN DEPETRO, 610AM WPRO: Nancy, when word came out that Michael Woodmansee was going to get 12 years shaved off his sentence it was so shocking just because this is one of those crimes that just stayed with everything because it was so horrific. In the amount of time that that little boy was missing.
And it obviously struck a cord with his father, John Foreman, who through someone I reached out just to give him a platform to talk about his son Jason Foreman. And what you heard was just very deep within him. For all those years. And all the emotion came pouring out.
And it is now just touched off a firestorm. Not only in the state. But I`ve heard from people that lived in that area, that neighborhood, from all over the country, Nancy, who talk about the torment that Michael Woodmansee caused in that neighborhood. Not only just by that act, but just that period of time before they knew what had happened and the evil nature of him sitting there in his front step where he`s usually found watching a neighborhood and community turned upside down.
Fliers of this missing beautiful little boy, of people`s homes being searched, of John Foreman, who as you know in these cases, Nancy, the parents are usually a suspect. And people looking twice at each other. Just the sheer hell that he caused, and the turmoil. And how he turned what was a peaceful, safe neighborhood into a neighborhood of people living on edge.
GRACE: Let me ask you this. He got 40 years, John DePetro.
John, joining us from 630AM WPRO. He got 40 years. This is in Connecticut. Do they have the death penalty there?
DEPETRO: Actually, Rhode Island. And no, they don`t. But what happened was --
GRACE: Excuse me. They don`t -- Rhode Island, you`re right.
DEPETRO: Rhode Island is not --
GRACE: They don`t have the death penalty. So they might as well have pled to 40 years. Because he`s not going to get the death penalty.
DEPETRO: And Nancy, this is the type of thing that I think, you know, you championed and other people. What`s so unfortunate is John Foreman blames himself. Now you can imagine what the family was going through and the prosecutors present them that he`s going to get 50 years.
He was getting 10 years, granted a suspended sentence for when he attacked a young man in 1982, Dale Sherman. And that`s how they discovered who the murderer was. And that he was going to get 40 years. And it sounds like a long time and then you don`t have to go through the trial.
But then to learn 12 years shaved off for good behavior. Apparently in prison no problems. And then, Nancy, Michael Woodmansee comes out. He`s 52 years old. And John Foreman, I`m sure, they never thought he would see the light of day.
GRACE: Twelve years is an awful lot to shave off the sentence. And one thing every single reporter has failed to comment on is that he ate the victim. He cannibalized the victim, according to the father.
Is that not correct, Pat Brown?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER, AUTHOR OF "THE PROFILER": Absolutely sure. But here`s the important thing. This man is a child sex predator and a serial killer. And some will say he is. And if that second child hadn`t escaped, he would be a serial killer.
And serial killers -- what they really get -- it`s easier for them to get time off in prison because they tend to act really well when they`re there. But when they get out, if they get out before their life sentence, you know, they get back in society at 50 years old, they`re a danger to the community.
And there was a man named Albert Fish who was a grandfatherly sort way back when. And he abducted a little girl and -- you know, just like this. And he was a -- he was a grandfather. So you can never trust him back out in the community. And that father is absolutely right.
GRACE: But according to the father -- out to you, Ellie Jostad -- he displayed the child`s skull in his bedroom.
JOSTAD: Right.
GRACE: And the child`s bones. And the father said he cannibalized the son`s body.
JOSTAD: Right, Nancy. Well, there`s a key piece of evidence that nobody has been able to have a look at since this murder happened. And that`s the journal of the killer, Michael Woodmansee.
It`s been kept under lock and key. A judge ordered it sealed. And the father wants a look at that. He believes that that will share the details. He believes it will include cannibalism. He says he wants the public to know exactly what this guy did to his son so he won`t be released from prison.
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FOREMAN: The journal was put away under lock key, and I can`t recall anything out of that journal whatsoever other than one thing and I`ll repeat it again, it needs to be repeated. He ate the flesh of my son.
He ate his meat off of his bones before he cleaned the bones. So this is the kind of man. He`s a cannibalism person, a murderer, cannibalism person. That`s what he thinks about. And that`s what is still on his mind, I`m sure, when he gets out again to do this again.
DEPETRO: Could be very -- you know, very disturbing to read exactly this journal that Michael Woodmansee kept.
FOREMAN: All the more reason I think those -- that information needs to be public, so people know what kind of beast he is.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
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FOREMAN: One. I`d like to have that journal given to me. I mean, it`s been locked up in your security for all these years, and I want to know all the facts at this point because I do intend, if this man is released anywhere in my vicinity, or if I can find him after the fact, I do intend to kill this man.
And I just need that other information so I can kill him as aggressively and as painfully as he killed my son.
I want that journal. I think it belongs to me at this point. And I think in that journal, and no one is saying it, and if I can recall, and this is another reason why this man should not be released, he ate the flesh of my son.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is John Foreman, the father of the murder victim, little Jason, age 5. On "The John DePetro Show." It was on 630 WPRO. You can find it there at WPRO.com.
Out to Sue in Georgia. Hi, Sue.
SUE, CALLER FROM GEORGIA: Hey, Nancy, how are you doing?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
SUE: Well, what are the odds of this man getting out of prison?
GRACE: Well, I`m just trying to figure out what we have to do to keep him from getting out of prison. How can we stop it? It seems to me like it`s already a done deal.
And, Ellie, he would never have been caught if he didn`t attack another kid.
JOSTAD: That`s right, Nancy. He was a teenager. He was kind of known as a loner in the neighborhood. But police admit he was never a serious suspect. He grabbed a 14-year-old paper boy, lured him to his house, gave him beer and vodka. The kid passed out. When he woke up, Woodmansee was strangling him. The kid managed to get away. And that is how police questioned that kid, led to this killer.
GRACE: Everyone, the defendant`s name, Michael Woodmansee, age 52. Can we keep him behind bars?
Let`s stop and remember Army Chief Warrant Officer Erik Halvorsen, 40, Bennington, Vermont, killed Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Air Medal. University of Hartford graduate. Dreamed of being a pilot. An instructor pilot, flew Blackhawk helicopters.
Loved scuba diving, spear fishing, motorcycles, skiing. Leaves behind mother Dorothy, sister Karen, Ingrid, Brenda.
Erik Halvorsen, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you. And a special good night tonight from Georgia friends Stephanie, Emmy, and Ann.
Now have you ever seen a more beautiful bunch?
And happy birthday to Virgin Islands friend Eunah, mother of one of our stars, Adrian. Here she is with her brand new husband, Albert.
Once in a lifetime. Happy birthday, Eunah.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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