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Joy Behar Page
Interview With Stacey Lannert
Aired March 16, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, after being sexually abused by her father for more than a decade Stacey Lannert killed him and was sentenced to life without parole. But just two years ago, she was released and tonight she joins Joy to share her harrowing tale of tragedy, triumph and redemption.
Then, with Japan in desperate need of relief, actor George Takei tells Joy what we can do to kick-start the recovery.
Plus, the see through dress Kate Middleton wore to get Prince William`s attention is up for auction. But it raises the debate Kate can`t dodge. Is she ruthlessly calculating or is she a hero for simply going for her man?
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: If you were being systemically abused by your father, would you be capable of killing him? My guest tonight did just that. Stacey Lannert was only 18 when she shot and killed her father, the man she says sexually abused since childhood.
Stacey spent the next 18 years of her life in prison. Her new book is "Redemption: a story of sisterhood, survival and finding freedom behind bars". And she`s here to tell me her story.
Thanks for coming on the show Stacey.
STACEY LANNERT, AUTHOR, "REDEMPTION": Thank you.
BEHAR: Nice to meet you.
You know some to have details in this book are just horrific. I mean you decided at some point to tell the story. Why did you decide to speak out about this?
LANNERT: I think that it was -- it`s a very important story to tell. So many times, people don`t understand the true horror of sexual abuse and what we go through as children. Because they get the horror of it but they don`t understand that you also love this person that`s doing it to you. So your emotions are so tangled and it`s hard to separate.
BEHAR: It`s not just one way.
LANNERT: Right. It`s both ways. This is also -- this is the person who`s terrorizing me and raping me, but it`s also my dad. And I love him.
BEHAR: Who, when he was not drinking --
LANNERT: Right.
BEHAR: Right -- he was an alcoholic.
LANNERT: Absolutely.
BEHAR: When he was not drinking, he was a regular father. Tell me how he was when he was not drinking?
LANNERT: When he wasn`t drinking, he was a wonderful dad. He`d be the one who`d give me advice, the one that I looked up to and that I could lean on. And he loved me and made that clear. And I loved him.
BEHAR: But when did the sexual abuse start?
LANNERT: When I was 8 it started as a fondling, as like a game.
BEHAR: A game?
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: When he was -- was he drunk?
LANNERT: Yes, he had been drinking and --
BEHAR: Do you remember?
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: You remember the whole thing?
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: The first time and -- what did you think as the child? Like why is Daddy touching me this way?
LANNERT: No, he made it kind of fun.
BEHAR: I see.
LANNERT: And I know that sounds so strange, but I had no idea that what was going on was wrong. We used to play a stupid little game called touch tongues where my sister and I would stick our tongues out and touch them really quickly and then back up. I know it sounds strange but --
BEHAR: With him?
LANNERT: No.
BEHAR: With your sister.
LANNERT: Not at this time. It was my sister.
BEHAR: I see.
LANNERT: My mom had actually taught it to us. And my dad, my dad said he wanted to play that game. And so I did and then he changed it just a little bit to where I wound up giving him a real kiss and I didn`t know it.
BEHAR: You didn`t realize what was happening.
LANNERT: No. I mean I didn`t see that kind of stuff on TV at the time. I was eight.
BEHAR: Right. You were a child.
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: So, at what point did it then progress into this -- you know, really -- rape? I can`t even --
LANNERT: When I was nine.
BEHAR: When you were 9 years old.
LANNERT: When I was nine, because I didn`t want to play anymore. I didn`t want to play the game and so he became very violent and --
BEHAR: He got mad.
LANNERT: Yes. He was very angry.
BEHAR: And so, did you feel as a child you wanted to just stop making him angry with you? What happened?
LANNERT: I didn`t want to play the game anymore and I refused. And so, afterwards, he raped me for the first time because I wasn`t pleasing him. I didn`t want to please him any longer and I was cranky about it and I was whining and --
BEHAR: So, he just took you by force then. Where was your mother in all this?
LANNERT: She wasn`t there that night, the first time.
BEHAR: The first time.
LANNERT: No.
BEHAR: Did you tell her?
LANNERT: You know, I thought I had when I was 12, because I had told a babysitter. I told an old -- she was not a kid. She was an older babysitter who was married to a police officer.
And I had told her that my dad hurt me. And she told my mother with me standing next to her that same night. But she told my mom, Tom hurts Stacey and my mom was able to dilute that.
BEHAR: How?
LANNERT: You know eventually we kind of had a confrontation about it. Because I had believed she had known my whole life. And she said, when the babysitter said he hurt you and that could have meant a spanking or --
BEHAR: But you told the babysitter specifically what he did.
LANNERT: Yes, well, the babysitter asked me. She had been abused herself and she saw the signs when he`d come to pick me up, how I`d shrink away and not want to go with him.
BEHAR: I see. So if she was married to a policeman --
LANNERT: Right.
BEHAR: -- does it occur to you now to say, why didn`t you tell the husband -- the policeman?
LANNERT: Yes, it does, but we were in a very small town. And you know, 20 -- that would have been 28 years ago, those kind of things weren`t discussed. They were swept under the rug. And there were no real legal remedies for them.
BEHAR: I know.
LANNERT: What would they have done with me? Remove me from the home when I was clothed. We were in the middle of the class?
BEHAR: What did your father do for a living?
LANNERT: He was an actuary.
BEHAR: So he had a real job.
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: And functioned on the job except when he would drink then he would go after you.
LANNERT: Right. So, your mother -- she kind of sounds like she was in denial.
LANNERT: She was. She was in denial. And, you know some people need that place in order to survive. She had been molested herself as a child. There was that part of her that really wanted to be there for me, but another part, she just couldn`t.
And you know, we have a relationship today -- we have a really great relationship --
BEHAR: Yes.
LANNERT: -- because after July 4th, 1990, she`s done what she could to stand by me. Even though it meant her family has nothing to do with her anymore.
BEHAR: Oh, really?
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: Well, her father molested her.
LANNERT: Right.
BEHAR: Is he still alive?
LANNERT: No. He passed away a couple of years ago. But they disowned her when she stood by me at my trial.
BEHAR: In the book, you say something interesting about your grandfather. That you have -- remember I told you that? You want to tell me that story? What he said to your father?
LANNERT: I don`t know if he said it or if that`s how I always imagined my father changed from being such a lovely man. I felt like my mother`s father`s influence suggested that he use me. I wasn`t a part of the conversation but --
BEHAR: Well, he did it, so he figured --
LANNERT: Right.
BEHAR: -- why not take advantage of your daughter like I did with my own?
LANNERT: Right. And I could just imagine the conversation. You know, Debbie`s cold and she`s not giving me any and I can imagine my grandfather saying, well, take it from Stacy.
BEHAR: Grandpa.
LANNERT: I know.
BEHAR: So you never -- the only person you told was the babysitter, really?
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: And your mother, kind of -- you told your mother kind of.
LANNERT: Right. Well, because a number of incidents happened. Shortly after that, my grandfather had touched me and I told my grandma and she said well, just stay by me honey. He only does that when he`s drunk. And I felt well, if he only does that and my dad only does that and nobody`s going to jump in and save me here.
BEHAR: You felt alone in the world.
LANNERT: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Now, I know that you shot your father eventually and killed him and when we come back, I want you to tell me about that night. Ok.
So stay right there. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Stacey Lannert who served 18 years in prison for killing her abusive father. He sexually abused her for years she tells me. And she writes about it her book which I will mention the title again when -- when we go out later.
So you reached your breaking point on July 4th, 1990. Now, you have a sister, also, Christie, right?
LANNERT: Right.
BEHAR: She was how much younger than you?
LANNERT: Two years younger.
BEHAR: Two years younger and so tell me about that day. What went on that day that you -- that you snapped?
LANNERT: Well, on May 28th, I turned 18. So I felt that once I turned 18 the abuse is done. I`m an adult now, you can`t touch me anymore. I`m moving out and I`m going to take my sister with me. And when I --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: He was not abusing your sister yet?
LANNERT: No. He was physically abusive towards her but --
BEHAR: Hitting her?
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: So when he was out drinking?
LANNERT: All the time. And I felt like that was better than what I was going through, like I was protecting her somehow by what I was taking from him. And --
BEHAR: Well, because I guess you felt that the sexual abuse was worse than even the hitting.
LANNERT: Yes, yes I did.
And on my 18th birthday, I told him I`m leaving and I`m taking her and he raped me again which I didn`t think would have been possible and I was just devastated. Just devastated and I kept trying to figure out a way to get out of the house or leave the house. And it just seemed like I was never going to leave, ever, like no matter what I could think of, he`d find a way to stop it.
And July 4th came and I had a dog and he told me that I had to get rid of my dog and I said, fine. I`m -- I`m going with her and I`m taking Christie. And he said, no, you can go, but she stays. She`s your replacement.
BEHAR: She`s your replacement.
LANNERT: That`s what he called her, a replacement and --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Now where was your mother at this point?
LANNERT: They had divorced when I was 12.
BEHAR: And she was just out of the picture.
LANNERT: Guam. She was living in Guam.
BEHAR: In Guam?
LANNERT: Yes with my stepfather. They had married when I was 15. And he grabbed her and he dragged her into his bedroom and you know, I couldn`t get in, I couldn`t save her and I couldn`t stop it.
BEHAR: Could you call anybody?
LANNERT: No. I couldn`t call anybody because he had taken all the phones.
BEHAR: He took all the phones out.
LANNERT: All -- ripped all the phones on the wall and hid them somewhere.
BEHAR: Did you think of going to a neighbor and calling the police? You didn`t think of it. You were so -- sort of -- I don`t know what the word to use there, brainwashed in a way.
LANNERT: I think I was just so numb, so distraught. And you know, I look back on it and think of a hundred different things I could have possibly done and wished I had done them.
BEHAR: Yes.
LANNERT: But the thoughts just never dawned on me. I did feel utterly alone. And then at that moment it felt like you know every sacrifice that I had made, every time that I just taken it was just for nothing because here`s my beautiful sister being used by him in the same way.
BEHAR: Yes.
LANNERT: That he abused me.
BEHAR: So that made you feel terrible.
LANNERT: Oh, my God.
BEHAR: Yes.
LANNERT: Like I -- I didn`t even have a reason to live anymore.
BEHAR: You poor girl. You had nobody, you felt so alone.
LANNERT: I did.
BEHAR: It`s a terrible, terrible thing. You were just a kid.
LANNERT: And my sister, who I loved more than anything else in life, is now going through this pain and it`s my fault.
BEHAR: Yes. It`s not your fault.
LANNERT: It felt like it. It still feels like it.
BEHAR: It feels -- it still feels like it was your fault?
LANNERT: Like if I had just done what he wanted me to do, then she would have been ok and that never would have happened to her.
BEHAR: But that`s like saying, you know, trying to get out of a concentration camp, you know. They have you, they have you, you were just a baby.
LANNERT: I know, but you don`t realize it then. Even now, it`s still hard.
BEHAR: How is your sister doing now?
LANNERT: She`s good. She`s got a 4-year-old little girl. And she`s pregnant again for the second time, so I get to be a part of this baby`s journey into the world.
BEHAR: Yes.
So anyway, so that happened. What did you -- what did you pick up a gun, your father had a gun?
LANNERT: Yes. He had placed it in the basement earlier and went back in -- why I went back to the house, I forgot the dog. I went back to get it and saw the gun there and, you know, something inside me just snapped like we`re leaving and you`re going to believe it and you`re not bringing us back here anymore.
BEHAR: So you did -- you did, you shouldn`t say -- you did something.
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: Give yourself credit.
LANNERT: But I didn`t mean to -- kill him. I just wanted to stop him.
BEHAR: Right.
LANNERT: And -- you know, you can`t change time.
BEHAR: So you shot him with his gun.
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: Was he, this is after he attacked your sister?
LANNERT: This was hours later.
BEHAR: Hours later.
LANNERT: Hours later.
BEHAR: And you were just in a state of mind.
LANNERT: Yes. As -- as soon as I walked back in that house, it`s like the minute you walked out the door, you could forget --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
LANNERT: -- but when you came back in, it was just all come crashing back on you.
BEHAR: Right. Sure.
LANNERT: Like this is hell and I walked right back in to it and I`ll never get out of it. And now she`s in it and what do we do? How do we do it?
BEHAR: So you felt -- I mean you felt like the only way to get out of it was to get rid of him in some way or to stop him in some way.
LANNERT: It was to make him believe that we were leaving and --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
LANNERT: -- we had the power to stay gone.
BEHAR: But you really -- you should give you -- I know that you we want to prison and it was a complete injustice that was done to you in my opinion putting you in jail. But you should give yourself some credit for realizing that you did do something to help your sister. So that it wouldn`t happen again. You know.
LANNERT: Yes but it hurt so many people. And --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: What hurt so many people?
LANNERT: The actual crime.
BEHAR: Well --
LANNERT: And you know -- right.
BEHAR: But you -- you didn`t know that at the time.
LANNERT: No.
BEHAR: So to -- to -- under his influence all those years and to have the wherewithal to pick up his gun and take a shot at him. I mean that was in a way, in a strange way, it was very brave. I -- I think.
LANNERT: I think there was bravery in the thought, but no -- but actual cowardice in the action. Like to me to have him sit across a courtroom and be on the same stand that I was on --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
LANNERT: -- that would have been true justice.
BEHAR: Well, that`s interesting that you say that, you know. It would have been better to get the truth out than to actually kill him.
LANNERT: Right.
BEHAR: But the truth is coming out now. It`s all coming out now. It`s coming out in your book.
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: So you know, it`s happening and so -- after you, so was he`s sleeping when you shot him?
LANNERT: Yes, he was passed out.
BEHAR: He had passed out from the alcohol. And your sister was there with you.
LANNERT: She was searching for items to pick up. So she wasn`t right there by me. Like, I knew she was somewhere, but I didn`t even know where she was. So I was on my own. Completely on my own and after I shot him, he started screaming my name.
BEHAR: He felt it.
LANNERT: He thought he had broken his collarbone. He was that drunk, he thought he had rolled over and broke his collarbone. And so now I`m in panic too and you know and it dawned on me what I actually had done.
BEHAR: Yes.
LANNERT: Like I snapped out of whatever I was in. And I just wanted to help him. So -- right, I didn`t want my dad to die and I couldn`t believe I had actually done this. And so I turned on the front porch light and opened the door and was searching for a phone --
BEHAR: Yes.
LANNERT: -- to call 911 and I had yelled at Christie to find a phone and we couldn`t find one because he had hid them all earlier --
BEHAR: Right. Right.
LANNERT: -- and he just started screaming and yelling and calling us all kinds of bad names you know and he said just wait until I get up. And that`s all I could think of is the second he knows what happened, we`re dead.
BEHAR: He was going to kill you.
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: So, you took another shot.
LANNERT: I did.
BEHAR: And where did you shoot him the second time?
LANNERT: You know, I just placed the gun on the ledge -- there was a ledge behind him and I just placed the gun on the ledge and just closed my eyes. I didn`t even have the wherewithal to -- I couldn`t be present -- I couldn`t be wholly present for any of it.
BEHAR: And for this, you got 18 years in prison. We`ll be right back.
LANNERT: I did.
BEHAR: Ok. When we come back I want to hear about that.
Don`t go away. We`ll be right back with more from Stacey.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Stacey Lannert, who spent 18 years in prison for killing her father.
Ok, so you went -- they, the prosecutors, what happened then after that?
LANNERT: They didn`t believe that there was any abuse in the household.
BEHAR: They didn`t. As much you told them? Your sister told them.
LANNERT: My sister didn`t actually tell them. They never asked her.
BEHAR: They didn`t ask your sister.
LANNERT: No.
BEHAR: Well, she had been attacked by your father.
LANNERT: They didn`t ask. And I didn`t tell. I didn`t feel it was my place to tell her pain. And, you know, I still wanted to hide it to protect her and didn`t want people to know.
BEHAR: What did they think you killed him for?
LANNERT: His money.
BEHAR: His money. Was there a lot of money that he had? What kind of money? An actuary doesn`t make that much money.
LANNERT: No, but it would have worked out to about $400,000 total.
BEHAR: I see. And they thought that that`s why you did it.
LANNERT: Right.
BEHAR: So no matter what you said -- and you had -- what about the babysitter?
LANNERT: She testified for me.
BEHAR: She did. And that didn`t work either.
LANNERT: Well, it didn`t matter. My abuse wasn`t allowed to be brought in to trial. The only thing that was allowed in trial was what happened on July 4th, 1990. Not the years of abuse beforehand. I didn`t qualify for the battered women syndrome. And that`s why we sought clemency --
BEHAR: I see.
LANNERT: And that`s why the governor signed it. It`s because laws have changed to catch up --
BEHAR: Didn`t you get life without parole?
LANNERT: Yes, I did get life without parole.
BEHAR: What type of sentence is that for, you know for --
LANNERT: It was a very hard one. It was a very harsh one.
BEHAR: I don`t think that -- I mean Charles Manson could get parole and they wouldn`t give you parole?
LANNERT: No, I couldn`t even see the parole board. And that`s why we requested clemency. We requested that they just (INAUDIBLE) and he actually wound up changing my sentence to 20 years and that was really six days after he signed the order.
BEHAR: That was recently because they changed the law.
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: What did they change about the law?
LANNERT: They changed battered women`s syndrome to where the years of abuse can show how it might affect your emotions and why you might make that choice to shoot them instead of to make that phone call. That in your mind, you believed you`re always in danger.
BEHAR: So, you got out a couple of years ago.
LANNERT: Yes.
BEHAR: So, tell me, how was jail? Horrible for you?
LANNERT: You know, actually it was a healing experience.
BEHAR: It was?
LANNERT: I learned how to found my voice. I learned how to stand up for myself. I learned wasn`t alone with the abuse.
BEHAR: Right. You`re not alone.
LANNERT: No, I`m not.
BEHAR: I think it`s one out of four girls are sexually abused --
LANNERT: One out of four girls, one out of six boys and 39 million Americans.
BEHAR: Are sexually abused in this country.
LANNERT: And those are just reported cases. We need to focus on the healing and we need to talk about what happens behind closed doors.
BEHAR: Right.
LANNERT: And I`m trying to do that now.
BEHAR: No secrets.
LANNERT: No secrets. If we take away the secrets, we can end this nightmare.
BEHAR: If there`s a girl or boy watching now, who`s in this situation, who`s 8 years old like you were, what would you say to them?
LANNERT: Tell.
BEHAR: Tell. Who should they tell?
LANNERT: Anybody and everybody that you see.
BEHAR: What if they`re threatened, if you tell, I`ll kill you?
LANNERT: They won`t.
BEHAR: They won`t kill you.
LANNERT: They won`t kill. It`s a useless threat. And it takes our power away. Find someone. Go to the mandated reporters. Go to the schoolteachers, the counselors, a police officer that you see on the street, a family friend. Tell, tell, tell and tell.
BEHAR: Tell your mother.
LANNERT: Tell your mother.
BEHAR: Lot of times, mothers will say, no, you`re making this up. I heard that story many times.
LANNERT: It`s hard for people to accept. It`s very hard.
BEHAR: Ok. Thank you so much for sharing your story. It`s a painful story, but I think you`re on the road to healing, Stacey.
LANNERT: Thank you.
BEHAR: I wish you all the best.
LANNERT: thank you.
BEHAR: The memoir is called "Redemption: a story of sisterhood, survival and finding freedom behind bars".
We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Let`s change gears now and have a few laughs. I want to show you two pictures. First, the current queen of England, here she is -- there she is. Who I love, she`s hot. And second, the future queen of England. OK.
Now, rumor has it that Kate Middleton wore this dress while at school in St. Andrews. So was it the dress that snagged the prince or was it her witty repartee? By the way, the see-through dress is now up for auction and said to fetch upwards of $15,000.
With me now to talk about this and other fabulous stories of the week, or the day, rather, whatever, the year, are Rebecca Dana, senior correspondent for "Newsweek" and the Daily Beast. Comedian Sherrod Small and comedian Jessica Kirson.
OK, I don`t know about you, Jessica, but I wear that type of outfit to go food shopping, what about you?
JESSICA KIRSON, COMEDIAN: I do. I wore it horseback riding yesterday, and it was a little uncomfortable.
BEHAR: Isn`t it -- it`s annoying in the crotch.
KIRSON: Yeah, it is -- it`s just, you know, it`s too much clothing, to be honest with you.
SHERROD SMALL, COMEDIAN: I don`t understand why a $15,000 dress is see-through. It`s like, shouldn`t you have more material in that dress for $15,000?
BEHAR: Well, she didn`t pay that for that.
SMALL: Oh, that`s what they`ll auction it off for.
BEHAR: I bet it goes for more. What do you think, how much?
REBECCA DANA, NEWSWEEK: It`s estimated anywhere above $11,000, but I bet it will go for a lot more than 15.
BEHAR: I think it`s worth it if you have a lot of money.
SMALL: It was worth it for Kate Middleton. Of course, she got the prince. It`s interesting that Kate gets a man the same way that Snooki does on "Jersey Shore."
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Like any other putan (ph).
(CROSSTALK)
KIRSON: That`s why I wear it, hoping I`ll get some ass.
(CROSSTALK)
DANA: The dress actually was designed with handmade lace and it was designed by a woman named Charlotte Todd (ph), who is a classmate of Kate at a university. And it was actually intended to be a skirt, and they made a last-minute change, as so many young girls do, and just hiked it up and made it into a dress.
BEHAR: Isn`t that adorable.
DANA: Adorable.
BEHAR: So do you think that she actually wore that dress specifically to snare the prince?
DANA: Well, people have written and spoken a lot about how Kate had her designs on Prince William. I believe that the dress was just assigned to her. She was a student participant in a runway show.
(CROSSTALK)
SMALL: Every girl in that room at that fashion show was dressed to get the prince. As soon as they found out the prince was coming, it`s like, what am I wearing tonight?
BEHAR: Exactly. Do you think it`s worth more money than Harry`s Nazi uniform? If that ever goes --
KIRSON: I have to tell you, if that ever goes on sale, I`m buying it.
BEHAR: Why?
DANA: I`m (ph) wearing it.
KIRSON: Because I just -- I think it will look really good on me.
(LAUGHTER)
KIRSON: Over the see-through dress.
SMALL: Good luck outbidding Jesse James on that.
BEHAR: OK, here`s another story. Now, Bill Cosby, back in the day, I don`t know how long ago, he criticized rap lyrics. He says they`re obscene and they`re annoying. And Russell Simmons called him names or whatever. But now, Cosby was at an event and Russell Simmons wanted to have a rapprochement with him, and he went up to him to apologize, and Cosby replied the following. "Get the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) out of my face."
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: What better way to clean up language than to tell somebody to go (EXPLETIVE DELETED) himself, I always say.
SMALL: Dr. Huxtable!
(LAUGHTER)
KIRSON: I am enjoying this show!
SMALL: First of all, it`s a great, great story. When was the last time that anybody told Russell Simmons to go, you know, (EXPLETIVE DELETED) himself?
BEHAR: You can say it because we`re bleeping.
SMALL: How great is that? Twenty-five years, he deserved one. He was due one.
(LAUGHTER)
KIRSON: (EXPLETIVE DELETED). You know--
(LAUGHTER)
KIRSON: OK--
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I know you won`t.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You would never.
KIRSON: She`s nice. Not like the rest of us. Intercourse.
(LAUGHTER)
KIRSON: No, I think that he should have just offered him a pudding pop, and then they could have totally --
SMALL: First of all, it`s no, like he`s a grumpy black old man. Every black man over 80 is grumpy like that. There`s only seven of them.
BEHAR: That`s true.
(LAUGHTER)
SMALL: Seven old 85 black dudes, 85-year-olds.
BEHAR: Do you think that Cosby had a point at all in criticizing rap lyrics, though?
SMALL: Well, how can you criticize them if you`re going to tell somebody to go F themselves? It`s like you`re doing the same thing rap is doing, but you`re not rhyming.
(CROSSTALK)
KIRSON: You know what, why is a comic suppressing anyone? If you`re a real comic, I mean, just say whatever you want to say.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I remember him when he first started, and he really made his reputation on being a clean comic. He didn`t even talk about his race, which a lot of black comics do. He took pride in the fact that he did a bit on Noah`s ark.
SMALL: Wait, Bill Cosby`s black?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Yes, he`s black, you know. But he takes pride in that fact. So I will say that about him now.
SMALL: It`s a different generation.
BEHAR: But he also criticized Wanda Sykes.
SMALL: Why?
BEHAR: She displayed her education by using slang and profanity for--
(CROSSTALK)
KIRSON: You know what, he needs to shut up. Seriously. Because Wanda`s a brilliant comic. And if anyone does real art, they do it the way they want, and it`s not for one artist to criticize another.
DANA: Remember when Bill Cosby came out a few years ago also and said some really controversial things about the black community and fathers in the black community?
SMALL: Yes, right.
KIRSON: Yes.
DANA: He`s just been sort of a firebrand, and like it or not, I think probably his reaction against Russell Simmons maybe had something to do with being Dr. Huxtable all these years and everyone expecting him to be --
BEHAR: You mean channeling a character?
DANA: No, the opposite of that. Like, everyone thinks he`s a cartoon dad and he`s like, enough with this (EXPLETIVE DELETED) already.
BEHAR: I see.
(LAUGHTER)
SMALL: Like Bill Cosby--
BEHAR: I knew she`d get there somehow.
SMALL: She would, right?
BEHAR: She got there, yes.
SMALL: He`s like the grumpy old neighbor that you live next door to. Just keep your ball out of his yard and keep it moving.
BEHAR: Yeah, I see, all right.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Go ahead, you wanted to say something else?
KIRSON: Well, it`s like Charlie Sheen. I mean, it`s the same thing. He was playing father on "Two and a Half Men" and now he`s this, you know - -
(CROSSTALK)
SMALL: He`s America`s dad now.
KIRSON: Yeah.
BEHAR: OK, so let`s talk about Gilbert now. Gilbert Gottfried is in trouble this week, but -- and we talked about it and everybody`s been talking about it, but now some people are taking his side, including Joan Rivers and Howard Stern. And this is what Howard said on his radio show.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HOWARD STERN, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Here`s a guy that as long as I know him, has been making jokes about the n-word, about Jews--
ROBIN QUIVERS: Everything inappropriate.
STERN: I mean, you couldn`t ask for a more inappropriate human being than Gilbert Gottfried. When the AFLAC people hired him to the AFLAC duck, they knew all of this. They know this is an offensive guy, this is a guy whose humor is offensive. He`s made fun of every disaster I`ve ever heard. There is no reason for him to be fired.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: It`s interesting how the tide has turned. I heard that Sarah Palin has offered to shoot the duck.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Does Howard have a point here? What`s the point, come on? Let`s go, comedians, what do you think?
SMALL: I think first of all, if you get a $600,000 check from anybody, you`ve got to listen to what they say when they`re talking. But I think Gilbert Gottfried either said it too close -- soon after the tsunami, or he said it too far along after Pearl Harbor.
(LAUGHTER)
DANA: What`s Pearl Harbor?
(LAUGHTER)
SMALL: If it was closer or farther to either of those things, it would have worked out.
(LAUGHTER)
DANA: I mean, if you -- this is the thing with comedy, right? If you remember, Gilbert Gottfried very famously and wonderfully told these jokes after September 11th that people were -- it was sort of like the first time people laughed. Gilbert Gottfried and David Letterman, they were among the first out of the gate that sort of like broke the ice after September 11th. So it`s always a fine line to walk with comedians, and this is a danger of social media and other platforms--
(CROSSTALK)
DANA: Where people don`t have a publicist standing in between them and someone to say, like, hey, this is a bad idea.
KIRSON: Right. I think he was probably just on Twitter just thinking of funny stuff to write.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I know Gilbert. He`s probably too cheap to hire a publicist.
KIRSON: You`re right. I had dinner -- oh my God, you`re right. I had dinner with him at Applebee`s in Michigan.
BEHAR: Really?
KIRSON: Yeah. And he ordered like the fish dinner and salad and -- like everything he could, (inaudible) college kids. It was unbelievable.
DANA: Did he pay?
KIRSON: No, they took us out to dinner, and he got every course he could. He took--
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
SMALL: He yelled, AFLAC, and ran out.
BEHAR: You know, AFLAC, their clients are 95 -- 75 percent Japanese.
(CROSSTALK)
SMALL: He plays a duck. He plays a duck, for Christ`s sakes.
BEHAR: I know. Now, Joan Rivers, interesting, she tweeted quote -- "That`s what comedians do. We react to tragedy by making jokes to help people in tough times feel better through laughter, OK? Then Gilbert tweeted back to Joan, "Dear Joan, I love you and your vagina more now than ever."
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: So now, everybody -- at first, they hated Gilbert; now they`re defending Gilbert.
KIRSON: Gilbert -- I have to say something about Gilbert Gottfried. I tell everyone this. He is a brilliant comedian. I`ve worked with him many times.
BEHAR: He`s very original.
KIRSON: He is unbelievable. He loves getting a reaction from people. He`ll stand still for five minutes and make everyone uncomfortable and want to leave.
BEHAR: I know, but he loves also making money, and this is going to hit his pocketbook. I don`t think he`s happy about this.
SMALL: Oh, he`s not happy at all. First of all, it freaks me out that he`s like loud and Gilbert Gottfried on TV, and then when you see him off stage, he just goes, "hi, how are you doing." He`s a regular dude.
BEHAR: Yeah, he is regular. He got children. It`s unbelievable.
SMALL: He has a baby.
KIRSON: And one of them is named AFLAC.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
DANA: Not anymore.
BEHAR: But to think that he actually spawned a couple of kids in this world is frightening.
SMALL: That somebody would lay under him.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: His wife is adorable.
SMALL: Taking a bullet.
BEHAR: She`s really nice. She must want to kill him now because she`s very nice.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: All right, now, Charlie Sheen, you know, people have been talking about him, also. He has now expanded his live tour to include New York, where he`s going to play Radio City Music Hall. First of all, would you go?
SMALL: Yes.
BEHAR: I would also. You wouldn`t go?
KIRSON: I would go. Of course, it`s like watching reality TV. I want to watch him, like, you know, fall apart on stage and throw up. And--
BEHAR: Whatever he does, it`s an event.
SMALL: It`s an event.
BEHAR: That you`ll tell your children and your grandchildren someday. Like those -- remember those shmakas (ph) they were hanging in Central Park?
SMALL: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: The day that they were there, you were like, what is this? And now, a year later, you say remember that day they--
SMALL: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s the same thing.
SMALL: Yes. It`s beautiful.
BEHAR: Yes.
SMALL: It`s beautiful.
DANA: History. History in the making.
(CROSSTALK)
KIRSON: Sherrod and I can`t even get booked at the Chuckle Hut in the middle of Illinois. And this guy--
BEHAR: I know.
(CROSSTALK)
KIRSON: For being psychotic.
SMALL: I love when my tragedies from news stories go to, like, a tour.
BEHAR: Yes. Listen to this. He`s giving a dollar from each ticket sale to the Red Cross. There -- shouldn`t he give the whole thing to the Red Cross?
KIRSON: I was freaking out about that. A dollar. Like -- that is -- that`s to (ph) build a raft. What is a dollar going to do?
DANA: I don`t know, he`s selling out all these venues.
BEHAR: He`s selling out, all right.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: He made $2 million an episode on "Two and a Half Men," and he`s had a very long career. Can`t he just give the proceeds to the Red Cross?
(CROSSTALK)
SMALL: Crack is not cheap.
DANA: This is the thing about Charlie Sheen that he`s not interested in helping his career. I mean, this is like--
BEHAR: No. Self-destructive. OK. Thank you, everyone. Loved having you. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Celebrities are pitching in to mobilize donations to help for the victims of the Japanese earthquake and tsunami. But why does it seem that this time around we`ve all been a little slower to open the wallet than we did in the wake of past disasters like Haiti? Joining me from Los Angeles to discuss this and how we can help is George Takei, known for his role as Mr. Sulu in "Star Trek." He`s been taking an active role in mobilizing help for the victims in Japan. And joining us by phone from Japan, is singer Cyndi Lauper. She was flying in to Japan when the earthquake struck.
Let me start with you, George. Do you have family in Japan?
GEORGE TAKEI, ACTOR: I do. I have relatives in Hiroshima, which is way far south. And I have some relatives in the area west of Tokyo. So they`re not really affected by it, and I was relieved of that, but I do have friends throughout Tokyo and Osaka. And I was very concerned about -- for them.
BEHAR: Would you have ...
TAKEI: They`ve all checked in fine.
BEHAR: They`re OK. Have you been ...
TAKEI: They`re OK.
BEHAR: How have you been rallying people to help? People -- how have you done what you`ve been doing exactly to raise money and help them?
TAKEI: Well, initially, I couldn`t reach my relatives, even the ones in Hiroshima. I started -- but I saw the pictures on the TV screen, I had to do something, so I started tweeting, urging people to give money, to aid the people there. And I tweeted at times of crisis, we are all Japanese, in the same way that when 9/11 happened, we were all New Yorkers.
BEHAR: Yes.
TAKEI: We all pitched in.
BEHAR: I think it`s particularly apparent when there is radiation in the picture, which is what we`re seeing here. Because that could go anywhere ...
TAKEI: It`s frightening.
BEHAR: It could affect anybody. We are all in the same world. But it seems as though people are slower to help in Japan than they were in Haiti. Why is that, do you think?
TAKEI: Well, you know, I`ve heard that as well. But when you se those pictures of the survivors of the earthquake and tsunami, it is heart wrenching. I mean, the city is flattened like Hiroshima was right after the atomic bombing and, you know, they don`t have food. They don`t have clean water. They don`t have shelter and electricity in that bitterly cold northern Japanese winter. And I understand that this morning, it started to snow, and so, you`ve got to do something to help them.
BEHAR: Yes, which ...
TAKEI: Because it`s a first world country. People think, you know, they don`t need to be as generous, but the need is immediate. It`s a matter of survival. And so I`ve been urging that they give to the Red Cross, the Doctors Without Borders and Save the Children because they are on the ground now.
BEHAR: That`s right.
TAKEI: Some of these other agencies take about two, three months for the money to get there. But we need the money right now.
BEHAR: We`re seeing pictures of the snow that`s going on right now. I mean to add ...
TAKEI: Yes, there it is.
BEHAR: To add fuel to the fire so to speak, you know, it`s just awful. Now Cyndi ...
LAUPER: Yes.
BEHAR: You were in Japan when -- you were flying into Japan when the earthquake struck? Is that true?
LAUPER: We were descending into Nurida Airport. And all of a sudden, you know, when you keep circling and then we were really circling, and then we were going higher. So we were aware that something was up, and then we were on our way to Nagoya. And we wound up at an Air Force base, Air Force base, and we`ve stayed there for a while. It`s been an interesting ride. I must say that the dignity and grace which people conduct themselves here. The airports, there were people sleeping. I mean they had the airports, the workers at the airports were so kind and he gave blankets and pillows and you saw people like when you come into the hotel, there were people sleeping in the lobbies because a lot of people were stranded in Tokyo ...
BEHAR: Now, where is -- Yeah, where they are finding ...
LAUPER: Because the train stopped. Everything stopped.
BEHAR: Where are they finding the basic necessities like water and food right now? I mean that people ...
LAUPER: Now, what`s happening in Tokyo, I`m not affected, so I stayed. Because I thought it would be really awful to turn my back since I`m not in any danger because Tokyo is affected with, you know, the water. So now, the water is kind of rationed and they use kind of a not as purified water for the toilets in the hotel. I try and shut down all the lights all the time. Make sure that you don`t run the water. I think that, you know, the people in Sendai in the northern prefectures, those are the people who are really right now, because as you said, it is snowing. It`s March.
BEHAR: Yes.
LAUPER: So, you know when March doesn`t turn into spring right away. And these people, they`re wet, they`re cold, they have nothing.
BEHAR: Right.
LAUPER: You know, it`s one of those -- yes, it`s heart wrenching.
BEHAR: Heart wrenching.
LAUPER: You know. It`s ...
BEHAR: Yes.
LAUPER: The thing is, yes, we all tweeted. I tweeted and I stayed, and the weird thing is I`m the only act right now touring in Japan. Everybody else is not ...
BEHAR: People are actually going to shows?
LAUPER: They`re coming to see me and I`m singing my guts out. I`m trying to adjust and try do songs that make people feel - there`s a saying, (SPEAKING JAPANESE)...
BEHAR: Good thing ...
LAUPER: No, because they were so kind to me. My whole life I`ve been coming here ...
BEHAR: That`s nice.
LAUPER: ... and for all the other artists they should -- they should pitch in, because this is the place we came, all through the `80s, these people have always been very generous to us and they think that we should be generous back.
BEHAR: OK, stay right there, you guys. We`ll have a little bit more on this in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with George Takei and Cyndi Lauper who is joining us via skype or phone, actually, from Japan.
LAUPER: Oh, yeah, I almost felt good right now ...
BEHAR: I think it`s five o`clock in the morning there, right? So, Cyndi?
LAUPER: Yes. It`s six. (inaudible). It`s -- I don`t know. I don`t know.
BEHAR: Well, we saw a lovely picture of you in the newspaper helping some children, you were wearing glasses. So, don`t worry about how you look. You`re doing a nice thing, Cyndi, by staying there. I think it`s great. A lot of people bailed.
LAUPER: Now, there were a lot of people -- yeah, that bailed. We call them pusses. They -- because Tokyo and Osaka, which is where I`m playing, I was opening -- I was down in Nagoya, it`s all south. I mean, it really makes you look at nuclear power.
BEHAR: Well, let me hear about that -- Are you scared of the radiation at all? I mean you`re far away from the center there.
LAUPER: Far away from it, Joy.
BEHAR: Yes.
LAUPER: ... but it makes you look at what are your options? You know that fossil fuel is going to end. You know, the ride on fossil fuel is not going to last forever. And what do they have to replace it? They have nuclear power, they have coal. Now, they`re not researching any green power. You know, I think that this is a good wake-up call.
BEHAR: You would hope so.
LAUPER: They need to come up with something. You know, but I got to say, the Japanese people are very strong and very -- they`re very inspiring people and there is zero looting. Zero. Zero looting.
BEHAR: I know. That`s a very interesting point. George, what do you make of that? That there is zero looting in Japan right now?
TAKEI: Well, there`s a Japanese word. Gamaun (ph) ...
LAUPER: That`s right.
TAKEI: Which means ...
LAUPER: That`s right. That`s right.
TAKEI: Which means to endure with fortitude and with dignity. You know Japan is a very densely populated place ...
BEHAR: Yes.
TAKEI: ... and in a densely populated place, you`ve got to work with respect for each other and a little self-restraint. And it`s -- they do things collectively. I know that when I was a child growing up in two U.S. internment camps, we had to line up for everything.
BEHAR: Poor thing.
TAKEI: And one memory I had that I`ll never be able to forget, we were all lined up for medicine for my baby sister. My mother was carrying her and my brother and I were at her knees. And I had to go to the bathroom and my mother told me -- gamaun, gamaun, and so, I tried to hold it and hold it, but I couldn`t. I wet myself. But you know, that really taught me ...
BEHAR: Yes.
TAKEI: ... the Japanese value of gamaun, working in concert and restraining some of your own immediate needs.
BEHAR: Yes. Well, all that training I think is paying off in a certain way right now and we appreciate you coming on the show, and Cyndi, good luck over there.
LAUPER: Yes.
BEHAR: And thank you, George, for coming on the show.
TAKEI: Thank you.
BEHAR: Cyndi, get some sleep.
LAUPER: Thank you, George. I`m a big fan.
BEHAR: Thank you. We`re all big fans of yours, too.
TAKEI: Thank you and good luck to you, Cyndi!
BEHAR: OK.
LAUPER: Oh, that`s OK, it`s OK, these people are extraordinary people.
BEHAR: OK. Thank you.
LAUPER: If you can, give, give. Even if it`s a little, it would mean a lot.
BEHAR: OK. Thank you, guys. Thank you all for watching.
TAKEI: Even a little amount. Given with a great amount of heart.
BEHAR: Anything you can do. That`s right. That`s right. Good night, everybody, we have to go. Sorry.
END
