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Joy Behar Page

Taylor Funeral Protest?; The Neurotic Richard Lewis

Aired March 24, 2011 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW: Resident hate-mongers from the Westboro Baptist Church want to protest Liz Taylor`s funeral since she was an AIDS activist. Joy will tell you why some of Taylor`s closest friends are relishing this chance to keep fighting for what the legend believed in.

Then, a new book wants women to follow their passion as they enter their 40s. Joy stand-up at that age and she`ll talk about mid-life transitions with HLN`s Robin Meade, who is branching into country music.

Plus, it wouldn`t be "Dancing with the Stars" without some off-screen drama. So, did George Lopez cross the line when he compared Kirstie Alley to a dancing pig?

That and more, starting right now.

(MUSIC)

JOY BEHAR, HOST: The Westboro Baptist Church has become infamous for protesting the funerals of soldiers, they claim God is killing U.S. troops to punish America for its tolerance of homosexuality. Today, they announced plans to protest the service of Elizabeth Taylor who has supportive of gay rights and active in the fight against AIDS.

With me now to talk about this is Nate Phelps. He is the estranged son and critic of Westboro Church pastor, Fred Phelps. He`s also an advocate for gay rights.

Also with us is Ian Drew, senior editor for "Us Weekly."

Welcome to the show, guys.

Now, let me talk to you, Nate. The daughter of Fred Phelps, who is your sister, right, she tweeted the following, "No rest in peace Elizabeth Taylor who spent her life in adultery and enabling proud F-Gs," I couldn`t even say the word. "They cuss her in hell today. Westboro will picket funeral."

How do you feel about, Nate?

NATE PHELPS, ESTRANGED SON OF FRED PHELPS: Just standard fare for them right now. You know, they`ve been doing this for years, this attitude of total disrespect for feelings and differences in society.

BEHAR: What is with your father? Is he -- why is he so homophobic, do you think? I know you`ve been estranged from him for, what, 30 years?

PHELPS: Yes, over 30 years. That`s right.

BEHAR: OK. Do you have any idea what the homophobia is about? Is it that he may be closeted himself? It`s that what this is about?

PHELPS: Well, you know, there was never any evident of that. I just know from the time we were young, that he perceived from his interpretation of the Bible that homosexuality was like the ultimate sin that you couldn`t overcome. So, that kind of became his standard for evil in the world.

BEHAR: Well, he became obsessed with it, though. There`s a sickness to it. There`s an obsessive quality to it that rings of mental illness to me.

PHELPS: Yes.

BEHAR: You know?

Ian, what exactly are they lashing out at Elizabeth Taylor about? Tell the audience.

IAN DREW, US WEEKLY: Well, I mean, she has a long history of AIDS activism, of course. I mean, she was a leader. She was the first person ever say AIDS on TV. And she was always fighting, even when she was in a wheelchair. I remember the last time I actually, physically, saw her was at an AIDS benefit and she was on the stage in a wheelchair, and could barely speak very well.

I mean, you couldn`t really tell what she was saying but she was up there fighting the fight. So, she was tireless. I mean, constantly giving money. And, you know, she was -- it wasn`t even just that, she was always for the underdog.

BEHAR: Yes.

DREW: I mean, she was someone who was always -- whether it be her friend Michael Jackson or -- you know, underprivileged children, I mean, she was always doing something for other people.

BEHAR: That`s true. Now, just a point of reference -- the Supreme Court recently ruled that the Westboro can legally protest on those premises because they`re protected by the First Amendment.

So, Nate, is there anyway to stop them, short of, you know, violence? Which I don`t really advocate ever? Go ahead.

PHELPS: The law`s not going to allow you to stop them. So, the only thing can I think to do is figure out positive responses, counter protests, efforts by the community when they come there to do this kind of thing, to make something positive out of this hateful message they`re bringing.

BEHAR: Well, Ian, do you think somebody suggested today maybe the gay community should get numbers there and just protest against it, what do you think of that idea?

DREW: I mean, I think it`s disrespectful to her family to have this going on. But I do think she`ll have enough security to sort of keep people at bay. Also, maybe they don`t realize she`s Jewish, that she gets buried, you know, quicker. So, it could happen usually one or two days after. She might not have even known it`s going on. I mean, a lot of people were shocked that it`s today. But she was, you know, very much proud of her Jewish faith after she converted.

BEHAR: I know she did.

DREW: Yes.

BEHAR: But, you know, they threatened -- this group threatened to protest Natasha Richardson, and Heath Ledger`s funerals, but they didn`t show up. So, do you think they`re all talk here?

DREW: A lot of times they are all talk, yes. Like I said, I don`t think they`ve been able to mobilize, even get to L.A. quick enough. I`m sure they didn`t know when it was going on. They don`t even have the resources to find that out -- unless it`s a large scale thing.

And even the media didn`t know until earlier today that it was going to happen today.

BEHAR: Right. But sometimes, maybe they`re just B.S.-ing everybody with some of this.

I mean, tell me something about your father, Nate. Tell me something about him when you were growing up.

PHELPS: Well, I mean, where shall I start. He was an extremely violent, self-centered person that found pleasure in the harm that he did to others. I mean, literally expressed pleasure in it. You know, he used to laugh about his -- one of the comments his father made to him when he was a young child, that he seemed to enjoy kicking people in the shins and then watching their reactions.

So, this is just, you know, the latest iteration. He`s been doing this kind of stuff his entire life, you know, to his family, to his children and, you know, to his co-workers. And, you know, this just gave him a bigger platform. He`s enjoying, he`s having the time of his life.

BEHAR: Well, he`s a sadist, but how do you explain your sister`s behavior, is she just brainwashed by this evil doer?

PHELPS: Well, when we grew up there, nobody had a mind of their own. Nobody was allowed to think for themselves. He wasn`t accountable to anyone or anything, except God, which was -- you know, I mean, he was the one deciding what God wanted him to do. So, he literally wasn`t accountable to no one and didn`t allow dissension in the ranks

So, this is what you end up with. This isn`t at all surprising that nine of my 12 siblings have ended up parroting him in their adult life.

BEHAR: Nine are -- what do say, parroting?

DREW: Parroting, yes.

BEHAR: So, they`re going along, so the brainwashing took.

DREW: It`s a family affair.

BEHAR: What about your mother? Where is she at?

PHELPS: She`s there. She`s 85 years old. You know, in the early years, she tried to temper some of his violence and some of his cruelty, but he would just turn it on her, and she reached a point where she wasn`t willing or able to fight any more. So, you know, I look at her as being another victim like the kids were.

BEHAR: Was he ever called on the carpet for domestic abuse? Were the police ever called for something like that? And does he continue to be abusive now to his family?

PHELPS: Well, I don`t know that he has it in him any more to be physically anymore, to be physically abusive. But, you know, that`s not all there is too it. You can be very destructive with your words and your ideology and the way you treat people. So, yes, I`d say he`s still abusive. Maybe not physically, though.

BEHAR: He`s so concerned that all these homosexuals and other people are going to go to hell. Where do you think he`s going to go?

DREW: Well, I think, let`s face it -- it`s attention. This is all that the guy wants, and this is what we`re giving him. I mean, this is what he wants, is to be able to be talked about.

BEHAR: He sounds like a terrible, terrible human being.

I mean, Nate, how old is he? Maybe he`ll die soon. How old is he?

PHELPS: Well, he`s pushing 82. And he`s not -- you know, he`s not looking good lately. So, who knows?

BEHAR: We can only hope.

PHELPS: I think that that`s what we should hope for, when that happens, this may mitigate a little bit.

BEHAR: There`s no other way to get out from under this guy.

DREW: Well, who`s going to picket his funeral if he`s dead?

BEHAR: Yes, right, nobody, because nobody cares.

DREW: Exactly.

BEHAR: Including his children when he`s gone. It would be interesting this case, to see how they react when he`s gone, some of these brainwashed kids.

Let`s watch a clip of Elizabeth Taylor talking about why she started her fight against AIDS on "Larry King Live." It`s interesting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELIZABETH TAYLOR, ACTRESS: People sat around at dinner parties discussing it, and saying, "It`s just awful." You know, nobody`s doing anything. And the government isn`t doing anything. And I just don`t know what we`re going to do.

Here I am furious. And what am I doing? Nothing.

So, I moved and cofounded the first AIDS foundation, amFAR in America, in the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: It`s interesting, she was alone in the fight in those days she says.

DREW: Yes, like I said, she was the first one, even the president of the United States wouldn`t mention the word --

BEHAR: Right.

DREW: -- and she was leading the charge. So, she was really pioneer, that`s what we should be doing, not picketing her funeral, but really remembering her legacy. And that`s what she wanted to be remembered for more than anything else until the end. You know, for all the tabloid attention she got for everything else in her life, this is what mattered most.

BEHAR: Do you think, Nate, we should just ignore your father and this Westboro group? Or what? What should we do? Because they really make me angry.

PHELPS: Yes, I wish we could, Joy, I really do. But it doesn`t seem like that`s a practical solution. So, you know, going back to what I said earlier, I think that we`ve got to figure out some positive ways. You know, the Patriot Guard Riders that show up at these funerals and block them. You know, that`s a positive response to what`s going on and, you know, just keep looking for those kind of solutions.

BEHAR: He`s very hurtful -- hurtful to the soldiers who have passed - - who died in service to the country and the families and to the gay community. It`s just despicable behavior.

Anyway, thank you very much, you guys.

We`ll be back in a minute.

PHELPS: You bet.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: Richard Lewis works with Larry David on "Curb Your Enthusiasm" and Charlie Sheen, believe it or not, on "Two and a Half Men." And you wonder why he`s in therapy 11 days a week?

Joining me fresh from a double session on shrink`s couch, my pal, Richard Lewis.

RICHARD LEWIS, COMEDIAN: By the way, I didn`t know

BEHAR: I didn`t even realize that you were in "Two and a Half Men".

LEWIS: I did a scene for my friend Chuck Lorre about five years ago. It was fun. But let me just say something -- this short term memory loss blows, doesn`t it?

BEHAR: Yes, I know. Don`t ask me, I don`t have it.

LEWIS: No, you know what you called me in the green room? John Lemmon, Brock Peters.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: Brock Peters.

LEWIS: She called Brock Peters. He was on the (INAUDIBLE) when Rob Schneider got nominated for an Oscar.

BEHAR: I was commenting during the break on how soft your hands are, like -- almost like a woman`s hand.

LEWIS: I love women. I`m not gay, but I love the woman side of me. What`s wrong with that?

BEHAR: Nothing.

LEWIS: There`s plenty wrong with it, believe me. Don`t get me into marriage.

BEHAR: No, I would think that you never -- you never did a dish in your life?

LEWIS: No, I cleaned dishes, but I never changed a tire or filled a gas tank. Not for any diva or self deprecation in my life -- but I`m afraid, I`m afraid -- Hank`s laugh, you can hear, even during World War II, we`re killing everybody -- shut up, Hank. I almost kill (INAUDIBLE).

BEHAR: So, try to stay on the topic a little bit.

LEWIS: No, I haven`t stayed on topic ever. You try -- when your born and your mother paints bars on her vagina to see if you can break out, you don`t feel good about yourself, OK?

BEHAR: Is she gone, your mother from this earth?

LEWIS: That`s a nice way of saying it. And you came back with sort of a scientology phrase.

BEHAR: Oh, really? They`d say that?

LEWIS: I don`t have a clue. I was just joking. It`s a religion, so albeit for me, I`m an agnostic, Jew, spiritual cat.

BEHAR: You know, a lot of

LEWIS: What was the question? OK. I didn`t -- I never put gas in the car, because I`m afraid I`ll spill. I obsess someone will light a match and kill their family.

BEHAR: Really?

LEWIS: So, I don`t do it for that reason.

BEHAR: It`s not a common fantasy, but it`s an interesting fantasy that you could kill your entire family that way. It`s interesting.

LEWIS: You know what I did, the other thing is pointless.

BEHAR: I want to talk about the fact --

LEWIS: Why, because it`s your show, big freakin` deal.

BEHAR: I don`t care, you want to not talk about it.

LEWIS: I`ve known you for 25 years. Why should I have to talk about it?

BEHAR: I mean, I was thinking about you --

LEWIS: Can I just get out of the light? You earrings, really, it looks like Jayne -- really it looks like Jayne Meadows -- who`s Steve Allen`s wife?

BEHAR: Jayne Meadows. Yes.

LEWIS: I played poker there. A little larger, but it was a chandelier covered the entire table.

BEHAR: You know, people who are in therapy take years before they reach the point where they can free associate the way you do. Seriously.

LEWIS: Really?

BEHAR: Yes, it takes years and thousands and thousands of dollars.

LEWIS: That makes me laugh, because it`s so funny. But I`m not --

(CROSSTALK)

LEWIS: I`m a fairy hip cat.

BEHAR: And the analysis, the whole goal of analysis is to free associate.

LEWIS: So, one shrink told you that and you bought it?

BEHAR: Yes, one shrink, Sigmund Freud, OK? Talk about your relationship with Larry Davis.

LEWIS: Let me ask you a question: were there two giraffes and two zebras or just two giraffes and no zebras?

BEHAR: Where?

LEWIS: The ark. What did the rabbi tell you? You`re Jewish.

BEHAR: I`m not Jewish. No.

LEWIS: You look Jewish for an Italian. It`s unbearable to me.

BEHAR: We`re the same. We`re all the same. We`re all God`s children.

Now, you know, Charlie Sheen is going to be doing standup.

LEWIS: Charlie who?

BEHAR: Charlie Sheen. LEWIS: I haven`t seen him around.

BEHAR: He`s making so much money on this craziness. Are you jealous of that? You should be a little jealous.

LEWIS: That`s funny.

BEHAR: But, listen, the guy is doing standup. And he`s doing 70 or 80 minutes of rambling. So, what do you think about that?

LEWIS: I`ll tell you one thing and it`s so sad, two words: box office. Very jealous.

BEHAR: He`s going to pull them in for a while, but don`t you know that after 20 minutes --

LEWIS: I know Charlie Sheen`s family. And Martin Sheen is a friend of mine. And he`s -- I don`t socialize with him.

Look, you know what? You do whatever you want in life. That`s not the libertarian, that`s not the whole part of it. I`m not libertarian by all of it, some of it.

If he wants to live with two women and not see his children -- if that`s proper for him, and he doesn`t feel that has consequences -- one day he might say, 10 years from now, have a talk with his 13 or 14-year-old twins, you know, I really let you down -- if he lives. I don`t know, I never used or drank with him. But it`s clearly, you know --

BEHAR: What type of drugs does he like? He likes cocaine? What else?

LEWIS: What do I care? You know, there`s a thing, when you help -- I help addicts every day, I`ve been sober almost 17 years.

BEHAR: No applause for that?

LEWIS: I don`t want --

(APPLAUSE)

BEHAR: They always applause when someone says something like that. It`s like the equivalent of the old days of Mary Griffin (ph) when someone would say, we`ve been married for 25 years. Everybody has to clap. Like it`s such a big deal that you`ve been married.

LEWIS: You know, there`s a friend of ours, a mutual friend. And he`s a brilliant comic, Jimmy Labrio (ph).

BEHAR: I know Jimmy, yes.

LEWIS: Very funny.

BEHAR: We have to go.

LEWIS: Do we have to go?

BEHAR: We`re going to come back with another segment.

LEWIS: All right. But -- can I have just 20 seconds?

BEHAR: Sure

LEWIS: If you`re -- I go to doctors, I tried A.A., I have different ways.

BEHAR: Yes.

LEWIS: Whatever works, like a smorgasbord. I have a lot of friends, they smoke, they drink wine, I even buy wine for the table, I don`t crave it because I can`t drink anymore.

BEHAR: You don`t crave it, though.

LEWIS: Not all. I haven`t.

BEHAR: Good for you.

LEWIS: He said, he`ll go to a meeting, I have one guy, my name is Jimmy. I`m an alcoholic. Then they`ll say, this morning I cut my wife with a razor blade. And some guy was flirting with him, I knife him in the arm. The story goes on forever.

BEHAR: Yes.

LEWIS: And then the group says, did you drink today, Jimmy? And he says, no. And they go -- winner, you`re a winner.

(LAUGHTER)

LEWIS: So, the point is, I know a lot of people who are sober that are jerks, and I know a lot of people that drink, but if it starts to take over, and I know a lot of people who is sober, who are the nicest people I met in my life.

BEHAR: Yes.

LEWIS: So, you have -- it really comes from --

BEHAR: It`s relative.

LEWIS: It`s all relative.

BEHAR: OK. We`ll be back with more with Richard Lewis in just a minute.

LEWIS: Winner! Winner!

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: I`m back with Richard Lewis.

LEWIS: What do you think of my outfit? I don`t look like a nutcase from mars, right?

BEHAR: No, but you always wear black. Is that your choice?

LEWIS: I have my whole life. I had black diapers.

BEHAR: Really?

LEWIS: Yes.

BEHAR: That`s a question we have here from somebody -- Twitter questions for you.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Sure.

LEWIS: And by the way, the last time I was on, I thought it was a good appearance, whatever that means. After 41 years, you know what, you go online? You stink, you`re a Jew. If anyone has time to do that --

BEHAR: And that`s all your relatives.

LEWIS: What are you, Mrs. Bob Hope? I`ll tell you that was on a good day.

BEHAR: Let me ask you, Richard, some other Twitter questions.

LEWIS: Can`t wait.

BEHAR: What do you think happens when or if you die? That`s a good one.

LEWIS: Not much. Not much.

BEHAR: Do you believe in an afterlife?

LEWIS: I would like to believe in reincarnation, but I`d need to step on a grasshopper and have him say, it`s me, Irving Halperin.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: So you don`t believe in it?

LEWIS: No, until I hear I crushed a friend -- it`s an animal, you know? Or it could be a leaf. I want someone to go, hey, I`m on the maple. I`m on the maple. You dated me in sixth grade. But I wasn`t going to have intercourse.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: So, what do you think happens after you die?

LEWIS: Well, I`m not going to be cremated, that freaks me out. That`s a clue to me that I feel something can happen, because I don`t want to show up at a bar with Lenny and Jonathan Winters (ph) is a good friend of mine, he`s 85. By that time, who knows, we`ll be up in together and hanging out. With Phyllis Diller, and anybody, they`re drinking and I`m dust. I`ll kill myself again.

BEHAR: Yes. Does it make you feel old when you find out Elizabeth Taylor died yesterday?

LEWIS: By the way --

BEHAR: Yes, sad.

LEWIS: -- how many stars are left that really aren`t like that? This woman has -- first of all, to me unbelievably underrated.

BEHAR: As an actress?

LEWIS: Actress, my God -- I mean, her beauty.

BEHAR: Yes, she was way good.

LEWIS: Way good. Virginia Woolf, insanely played, she was in her early 40s, she played it like late 50s even. She was great.

There`s a really odd movie, obsession of the (INAUDIBLE) she`s a great -- she was a great actress in some films, and beautiful, and she was so generous. And back in the old days, you know, Howard Hughes, who invented probably a lot of the films.

You know, you`ll see James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, and now you`ll see -- and I say this with respect, because they`re talented and, you know, but -- so the name`s funny. Jimmy Dean, James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, Marlon Brando, Carrot Top -- wait a minute, how is that (ph)?

BEHAR: Carrot Top is just a comic.

LEWIS: I know, but I`m just saying -- a great comic, I haven`t seen him. But people love him, and he`s talented. But I`m just saying, to me, all Hollywood is all Hollywood. And you got to really pay your dues to make that.

BEHAR: They`re never going to back. You`re never going to see Katharine Hepburn and Bette Davis in that level any more. It`s a whole different world.

(CROSSTALK)

LEWIS: (INAUDIBLE)

BEHAR: The only American actress --

LEWIS: Larry David.

BEHAR: No, the actresses. You have Meryl Streep, Jessica Lange, those are great actresses.

LEWIS: They are there.

BEHAR: So, any, if you`re in New York, catch Richard Lewis at Carolines.

(CROSSTALK)

LEWIS: -- New York, aren`t you?

BEHAR: I have run out of time.

LEWIS: You know, I`m doing my eighth year of curb.

BEHAR: And check him out on his eighth season of "Curb Your Enthusiasm."

LEWIS: Thank you, Larry.

BEHAR: We`ll be right back.

Come on my show, Larry.

LEWIS: He hasn`t come on your show?

BEHAR: He came once.

LEWIS: How selfish.

BEHAR: There`s another one.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: George Lopez is apparently not a fan of Kirstie Alley. The actress earned high scores for her cha cha on "Dancing With the Stars," but Lopez criticized her weight instead. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE LOPEZ, COMEDIAN: She did a nice job, her little hooves tapping away.

(LAUGHTER)

LOPEZ: Before the show, she went to the market, and there she had roast beef. And this is her going all the way home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: I wonder what sound he`ll make when the Scientologists come after him.

With me now to discuss this and other stories in the news are Rebecca Dana, senior correspondent of "Newsweek" and TheDailyBeast. Pat Kiernan, morning anchor at New York 1. And singer Justin Guarini, who is currently starring in "American Idiot" on Broadway.

That is some title, Justin.

JUSTIN GUARINI, SINGER: Thank you very much.

BEHAR: "American Idiot." You can always put that on your resume.

GUARINI: I go from "Idol" to "Idiot." It`s great, yes, I can`t complain.

BEHAR: That`s right.

GUARINI: Yeah.

BEHAR: So what do you make of that? We`ll start with you, Justin.

GUARINI: OK.

BEHAR: He also said -- he called Wendy Williams a man, by the way. And Ralph Macchio he said had a rug on his head.

GUARINI: That`s a shame (ph). Look, nobody deserves to be a called a pig or anything like that, but you have got to think, this is just George being George. If we wagged our fingers at every comedian who said something off-color or insulting, our fingers would fall off.

BEHAR: That`s true.

REBECCA DANA, NEWSWEEK: Here`s what (inaudible) -- comedian. I just think like, if he were funny --

(LAUGHTER)

DANA: Like any of this would be -- like, I can get behind meanness, if it`s funny, but it`s just not funny.

(LAUGHTER)

GUARINI: But she put herself out there like that.

DANA: Who cares. First of all, it doesn`t mean you need to be mean to her.

GUARINI: True.

DANA: And second of all, if you`re going to be mean, just make it funny, that`s all I have to say.

BEHAR: Fat jokes are always about women, Pat, why is that?

PAT KIERNAN, MORNING ANCHOR, NY1: Skimpier costumes.

BEHAR: No, but why are the jokes about them?

KIERNAN: I`m not going to defend this.

BEHAR: You don`t have to defend it.

KIERNAN: Perpetrators of fat jokes. I think George Lopez wrote the joke without ever seeing her, because she was fantastic.

BEHAR: He was watching. You saw--

KIERNAN: But if you watched it, she was the star of the show that night, on opening night.

BEHAR: Right.

KIERNAN: And it would have been -- might have been a little funnier if it hadn`t been such a great performance by her.

BEHAR: Well, maybe, I don`t know. I think it`s sexist, isn`t it? Because you never hear a fat joke -- although they were doing fat jokes about Governor Christie of Jersey. And everybody got (inaudible) about that.

(CROSSTALK)

BEHAR: Everybody got on them--

DANA: People did fat jokes with Mike Huckabee too. Fat jokes, they are just--

KIERNAN: She has traded on the fat thing.

BEHAR: Who, Kirstie Alley?

KIERNAN: The show is called "Fat Actress."

BEHAR: I know, but you know what, as a comedian myself, we take the joke on ourselves, it doesn`t mean you can do it.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: OK. Now, Kathy Griffin, for example, she`s also out there. We love Kathy, she`s a friend of the show. She was booed for making fun of Bristol Palin at a gig that she did in front of the troops, I believe it was in maybe Iraq or someplace. And you know, she made a joke about how fat Bristol is or was, that she was the only one who gained weight on "Dancing With the Stars," and she called her the white precious.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: See, they`re laughing. It`s like an automatic laugh when you do a fat joke. But they`re idiots.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: You know? What do you think about that? Would they have laughed if she made the joke about, let`s say, Bristol is stupid, let`s say? Would they have booed her then? Or is it because they`re Republicans? What is it about --

GUARINI: There`s something about the Palins that is -- especially to that audience. I wouldn`t think that -- she just didn`t know her audience. I think it was just a poor choice.

BEHAR: She didn`t know her audience, yes. Well, she should have known her audience. I said that before, she doesn`t want to hear that. But I said that. Yes, go ahead.

KIERNAN: I think in either case, it`s a matter of figuring out what the audience wants. I think George Lopez figured this would go over. But then it gets--

BEHAR: It did.

KIERNAN: Right.

BEHAR: It did.

KIERNAN: It goes over in the room, but then it gets blogged and reblogged, and Youtubed and --

BEHAR: What goes over in the room doesn`t necessarily go over out there in the great television land.

DANA: Yes, I think if you`re a performer--

BEHAR: Audiences, for example, if I do something stupid here, because I`ve told them to.

(LAUGHTER)

KIERNAN: It`s a case with all these things, like it can be barely watched at the time, and then every draft --

(CROSSTALK)

DANA: I think knowing your audience, you have to just assume like in the best case scenario, your audience is everyone. So it`s less a question of what your audience wants to hear, and what you think is within the bounds of propriety and of taste and ethics and everything else.

BEHAR: Right, well, the minute you go into the bounds of propriety and taste, you`re not funny anymore.

(LAUGHTER)

DANA: Right. But like either you make fun of the way chubby 16-year- olds look or you don`t. Like, you do make decisions as a comedian. And there are things that you will touch and things you won`t touch.

BEHAR: Well, the thing about that, I think Kathy hates Bristol and hates Sarah, and she was -- she felt justified, because Bristol Palin tweeted some homophobic stuff on the tweets, right, and she wanted to get back at her.

DANA: Bristol`s a kid, like I just think there`s a difference there.

BEHAR: OK.

Next story, Tiger Woods, OK, he`s back in the news because he`s dating again. I`m so happy for him. This time the girl is 22, and the interesting thing about this story is that the girl grew up next door to him. So he knows her. It`s like Gigi (ph), (inaudible), that whole movie. First you know the kid as a kid, and then you`re dating her later on when she`s over 21. It`s very Woody Allen.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: You know?

GUARINI: I think it`s actually kind of sad. I feel bad for him, because the fantasy of that whole, hey baby, dress up like a schoolgirl for me is ruined. It`s absolutely ruined.

(LAUGHTER)

GUARINI: I feel sad. That`s one less great thing that they can do together. But she can actually draw some dirty pictures in crayon for him now.

BEHAR: I heard that, that she used to draw pictures--

(CROSSTALK)

GUARINI: It`s cool, but she can do the dirty ones now, and it`s cool.

BEHAR: What is it with him? The girl has been arrested for DUI also.

KIERNAN: She has to know how the story ends.

BEHAR: The story ends -- how will it end?

KIERNAN: Why, he`ll get bored like he did with the last wholesome (ph) girl.

BEHAR: You think so?

KIERNAN: I don`t know.

DANA: I think none of these people ever seem to know how the story ends, even though the story ends the same way all the time. I mean, Charlie Sheen has girlfriends now, and that hasn`t gone so well for the ones in the past.

BEHAR: They haven`t.

DANA: No.

BEHAR: Is she a little golddigger maybe, this girl?

DANA: Who knows. She seems to come from money, so.

BEHAR: I mean, did you see the houses, by the way? Elin has a humongous house and he has a humongous house. He paid like 29 million and she paid like 5 million.

DANA: She got a deal. Yes.

BEHAR: She got a good deal.

OK, well, this I love. There`s a group of women in Texas that meet on Sundays for pole dancing classes, set to Christian music. It`s called Pole Fitness for Jesus. OK? Now, they`re doing a religious thing and they`re doing pole dancing for Jesus. Does this mean I have to genuflect when I pass Hooters?

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: Is that what the next thing is going to be? Pat?

KIERNAN: This is a question I wouldn`t (ph) really answer for me (ph). Are they trying to make the -- are they just trying to use God to sell the pole dancing classes? Or are they actually making the argument that God wants you to pole dance?

BEHAR: It`s almost like making god a pimp, doesn`t it? It`s so wrong.

DANA: I think it`s terrific.

GUARINI: I agree.

DANA: I think that anytime that the Christian Church could embrace sexuality or female sexuality is a good thing, and not just tell people that they shouldn`t have sex, and that homosexuality is bad, and no, no, no. I think it`s great.

BEHAR: So you don`t see the hypocrisy in it? I mean, you know.

DANA: Hypocrisy or not hypocrisy, I think it`s a good thing.

GUARINI: You know, the Christian Church does say spread the word, not spread your legs. You know? But I think honestly, if they were to branch out with this, it would be a fantastic way to tithe. I mean, it`s just the basket and you get a little g-string, I`m done (ph) -- it would increase revenue if nothing else.

BEHAR: How about treadmills for Joseph Smith? OK, thank you, guys, and catch Justin performing in "American Idiot," and I mean that in a good way, on Broadway now.

We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: For many women, turning 40 is more frightening than spending a weekend with Mel Gibson. But why is it so traumatic? Why? Tell me. Here to unlock the big mystery are Sarah Brokaw, psychotherapist and the author of "Fortytude," and Robin Meade, anchor of "Morning Express With Robin Meade" on HLN. Welcome, ladies. Hi, Robin, so nice to see you.

ROBIN MEADE, MORNING EXPRESS WITH ROBIN MEADE: Thank you so much. I feel like I`m on -- awake on the other side of the day. Thank you for having me.

BEHAR: Of course.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: Let me start with the author. What was it like when you turned 40?

SARAH BROKAW, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: It was really actually quite anti- climatic. I was expecting to be -- as I was just saying, you know, butterflies and zebras and balloons. And there was going to be a red carpet for me because I was writing this book, and I thought that I was going to be the only person who was turning 40. But --

BEHAR: It sounds like a clown party.

BROKAW: Totally.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: But you were the only one?

BROKAW: I thought I was the only one who was turning 40. I`m like, where is everyone? And I realized that it was that much more anti- climactic for me. I remember having a self-pity party and I thought, you know what, I can either sit here and have a self-pity party or I am going to do something that is adventurous. I went down to Haiti.

BEHAR: You went to Haiti.

BROKAW: Yeah.

BEHAR: Yeah, why?

BROKAW: To celebrate my 40th.

BEHAR: Was that after the --

BROKAW: It was right after the earthquake, and I thought this is exactly how I want to celebrate my 40th, is to help others.

BEHAR: That was nice.

BROKAW: Yes. It was great.

BEHAR: That was nice, and that helped you?

BROKAW: It really did.

BEHAR: You got outside yourself?

BROKAW: Exactly. It put me back into a healthier perspective. A less self-centered perspective.

BEHAR: OK, that`s good. And now, Robin, you`re on the air every day. And you just turned, I believe, 41?

MEADE: Yes, yes, 41, I`m actually going on 42, which sounds so weird to say, right? Because when the producers called --

BEHAR: I wish I could say it.

MEADE: When the producers called and said, we`re going to have a conversation about turning 40. I was like, well, who are you going to talk to? Oh, me.

BEHAR: Do you worry -- the world is watching you get older now, Robin, and you know you`re a hot number. Does it bother you at all?

MEADE: No. It didn`t bother me at all. I had a party, I told everybody. You know, it`s funny because I was talking to Deepak Chopra earlier this week for a segment. And we were talking about aging. And I was like, what is it about aging? He made such a good point, Joy, and that was, we have our chronological age, which is how many birthdays we have had. We have our biological age, which is how bad you`ve been to your body or not, right? So a lot of us are older because we smoked or drink or whatever. And then you have your psychological age, what you really think you are. So I guess 40 doesn`t -- I`m not 40, in my head I`m not 40.

BROKAW: Exactly.

MEADE: How about you?

BEHAR: That`s like Satchel Paige (ph) I believe said, how old would you be if you didn`t know how old you were?

BROKAW: Yes, exactly. Exactly. I would be 24.

BEHAR: Oh, really? I would be 35. How old would you be, Robin?

MEADE: Yeah, probably 31.

BEHAR: I loved the 30s, they were the greatest. You still look good, your boobs stand up straight, there`s no bladder control issues. It`s fabulous.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: Now, Robin, you decided to be -- you know, you have a wonderful career as a correspondent on HLN. She`s on every morning on a very hit show on HLN. And now you`re a country singer. She`s becoming a country singer.

BROKAW: That`s what I`ve heard, I`m really impressed.

BEHAR: Tell me how you are doing that. And why didn`t you do it say 10 years ago. Why now?

MEADE: You know what, I think I`m just now feeling comfortable about being judged or people going -- just what you asked. Who do you think you are? You`re a news anchor, why do you think that you can write songs and perform? It used to be, in my 30s, that was my downfall. I so wanted to be liked and approved that I really didn`t like or approve of myself. That`s what the bottom line is.

BEHAR: You didn`t approve of yourself.

MEADE: Well, I think when you`re looking for other people`s approval, and fulfilling someone else`s prescription of perfection, you`re not really thinking that you`re OK the way you are. So now I`m like, you know, I want to perform a little bit. And if you like it, OK; if you don`t, that`s OK too. But you were just seeing video of me at the Grand Ole Opry, and that`s an iconic stage. And so that`s going pretty well.

BEHAR: It`s a nice big jump for you, though, to, you know.

BROKAW: I have to say that, honestly, you really are such an example of 42, my hat`s off to you. And I`m glad that you got up there on stage and I`m just seeing right now a clip of you. And I just think it`s such a great message to younger women out there who feel like they have to just focus on one thing because it`s what they`re supposed to do, when really they do have the option to do whatever they want to do, and it really doesn`t have to be starting at 40.

BEHAR: No, but there`s an issue that`s interesting that you brought up, which is when you`re in your 20s, you get married a lot of times, you have children.

BROKAW: That`s right.

BEHAR: You basically satisfy all the rules. You go to college, you get married, you have children, you get the picket fence, you do all that. And then by the time you`re 40, you`re like, well, what about me? What about me? What am I going to do?

BROKAW: It`s kind of just the gray area that a lot of women face, if they have not reached the traditional milestones, which is getting married, having kids, women who are in the workplace, getting to a certain point on the corporate ladder. A lot of times these women really start to feel like they`ve become irrelevant. They don`t know exactly who they are.

BEHAR: Well, a lot of women at 40 become invisible to men. That`s another issue I think that you raise in the book.

BROKAW: Yes, I do.

BEHAR: Suddenly no one`s looking at you. Well, that certainly didn`t happen to you, Robin. Because I mean, all they do is talk about you around here.

(LAUGHTER)

MEADE: Oh, honey, it`s all smoke and mirrors. Smoke and mirrors, paint by number.

BEHAR: But men don`t have this problem. They`re 40 and they`re fabulous. The love handles will be on the floor, they don`t care.

BROKAW: Right, right.

BEHAR: I`m gorgeous, women are throwing themselves at me. They are at the height of their sexuality. Women at 40 feel like it`s all over. Why?

BROKAW: I think it`s because of how society looks at what is considered as beautiful. When you think about women who are considered as beautiful, it`s really about women in their 20s and 30s.

But I have to say, though, most recently older women have been showcased on the covers of magazines. You have the Jennifer Anistons, you have the Susan Sarandons.

BEHAR: Helen Thomas.

BROKAW: Helen Thomas.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: I`m kidding, go ahead, keep going.

BROKAW: But you do -- but you do have a number of women now who are being showcased who are in their 40s. So there is kind of I think a shift right now, but not quick enough. And I do think that we talked about this earlier, is that I think this is the moment where that women are really starting to capitalize on their sexuality in their 40s. This is the moment where they can say, I don`t care, I know that I need to be pleased.

BEHAR: Oh, yeah. Or I can please myself.

BROKAW: Or I can please myself or--

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here we go again.

BEHAR: Self-actualization is not just in books.

(LAUGHTER)

BROKAW: No, absolutely not. That`s right.

BEHAR: It could also be with mechanical items.

BROKAW: Oh, my -- Joy.

BEHAR: You wrote it, you wrote it in this book.

BROKAW: I did.

BEHAR: She`s backing off because her father`s Tom Brokaw.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: She doesn`t want to talk about it. I know what you`re up to, Sarah.

OK, we`re going to take a break. When we come back, we`ll find out more about your sex life. And sex in general. Stay there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: I`m back with Robin Meade and author Sarah Brokaw, and we`re talking about life after 40. You know, ladies, during a recent interview, the actress Kate Walsh-- she`s on--

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Private Practice."

BEHAR: "Private Practice," thank you. She tweeted or wrote this in an interview. "I feel like a loser," she said. "I would definitely love to be a parent, but I definitely don`t think I want to do it on my own." What do you think about that comment? Robin, why don`t you comment on that?

MEADE: I don`t have kids, and I feel like some people -- I think you referenced it earlier. Some people have this idea that they are supposed to be a parent at a certain age, they are supposed to get married at a certain age, and I am wondering if that`s what she`s feeling.

Now, I don`t have kids, and I have been married for 17 years, but with my job, I go to bed at 6:30 every night. So it`s a little hard to make kids. You know, I don`t see my husband until the weekend.

BEHAR: I see.

MEADE: So for us it just doesn`t work out, but I think a lot of women put pressure on themselves, saying, I`m supposed to have children, I`m supposed to do this. For me, I just never really felt so far that I had to, and if I don`t -- I feel like if you don`t have to, like you`re not feeling that urge, then why do it?

BEHAR: Well, in your case, you also have a career now as a country singer. That`s your baby right now. So sometimes a career takes the place of children.

BROKAW: She is right. She is further defining herself other than being a mother. Which is also once again, she`s an example of fortytude. So my hat is off to Robin for doing that.

When I think about Kate Walsh`s comment, I actually do feel sad for Kate. I think that Kate did take the opportunity to express her true feelings, which is really brave of her. And I am pretty impressed that she could do that, especially in a magazine like "More" magazine.

BEHAR: Oh, is that what she said, in "More" magazine.

(CROSSTALK)

BROKAW: Yes, and I know that that was probably really hard for her to admit it, but she probably thought this is my opportunity to show my true herself, considering what she`s gone through in the past.

BEHAR: Yes.

BROKAW: So I do give her credit for that. On the other hand, though, I did receive a number of e-mails from my girlfriends and from female clients who said, why would she say such a thing? She is non-exemplar of fortytude. She needs to be a woman of inspiration. Even if she felt like she was a loser, why would she admit it?

BEHAR: Well, because she says what is on her mind.

BROKAW: That`s right.

BEHAR: She`s not out there saying I`m a role model.

BROKAW: That`s right.

BEHAR: But you know, here`s another thing. You say that most women are able to obtain an orgasm more easily the older they get. Is that because their husbands have died?

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: Why is that?

BROKAW: Oh my God, Joy?

BEHAR: I mean, is that because they are alone? Or they know how to get there? Or what?

BROKAW: Listen, it`s come to the point that women said to themselves, like, I better have an orgasm before I die. If all of these other people are talking about how they have great orgasms, I`m going to do it, and I`m going to figure out how to do it. And I think that`s one. I think that emotionally that women finally kind of let go of the stigma of how their body looks and how they`re supposed to please the man. I think they get to their 40s and they`re like, screw it. I`m going to do it, right now. This is how I`m going to do it and this is how I like it.

I also think that, as I talked about self-pleasure. Self-pleasure has become a lot less of a stigma. It`s now something that is encouraged by so many individuals out there, especially what you see in pop culture.

BEHAR: But the religious still have -- put a kibosh (ph) on it. Remember that woman who ran for surgeon general, Jocelyn Elders, who was basically fired by the Clinton administration because she was suggesting that young people should just play with themselves? Remember that?

BROKAW: The -- Abstinence.

BEHAR: Abstinence. No, no, her thing was masturbate. Masturbate, she said, because that will keep you safe.

BROKAW: Oh, right.

BEHAR: You know, it was in the middle of one of the AIDS issues. But she got fired for that. So a lot of people out there put the -- Robin, do you have anything to add to this conversation?

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: Is there a country song you could write right now?

BROKAW: About masturbation.

(LAUGHTER)

BROKAW: Let`s hear it, come on!

MEADE: Well, I am sure that women as they get older know their bodies and, like you said, are freer and feel like -- let`s just say they know their way around.

BROKAW: I love the response.

BEHAR: All right, thank you very much, ladies. Very much.

BROKAW: Thank you.

BEHAR: Good luck to you, Robin. Monday night, you can see Robin at Birdland singing her country songs. Yes. And the book is called "Fortytude," pick it up.

Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.

END