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Nancy Grace
Fifth Body Found on Long Island Beach
Aired March 31, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. An off-duty cop walking his dog on a beautiful, remote and isolated beach stumbles upon a woman`s dead body, that beach turned burial ground after three more sets of female remains discovered, all dumped like trash, apparently thrown from a car, then going unnoticed, concealed by heavy underbrush, hiding along a quarter-mile stretch of sand.
Bombshell tonight. Another body, believed to be that of a fifth female, turns up on the same stretch of sand. Tonight, who is the killer, the serial killer stalking young women, locals and tourists alike?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police go looking for one missing person.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Instead they find five bodies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Buried here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Five bodies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stuffed in these brushes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five bodies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Within a quarter of a mile of each other.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are wondering, could a serial killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s not a coincidence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A serial killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Be dumping the bodies of victims.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ended up in the same location.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their manner of death, police won`t say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fingerprints.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any suspects? Police won`t say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dental records.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Picturesque and popular area in the summertime.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody targeted these individuals.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In winter, it empty and cold.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And dumped them in the same place.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight, it is chillingly so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a convicted child molester with a long history of attacks on children set to walk free because of a legal loophole. No!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This one has my blood boiling.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) Johnson (ph) faces 20 counts of felony child sex abuse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`ll be back on the streets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors say there`s nothing that they can do about it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Johnson could be a free man, and here`s how.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Johnson has been deemed incompetent to stand trial.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A travesty of justice.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That means prosecutors cannot prosecute him because of his current mental state.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our hands are tied.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So we just wait for more victims? It`s outrageous!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The hospital says, There`s nothing else we can do for him. We have to release him back into society.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The same doctors are saying he`s not a substantial danger to society.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To let this man out is insane.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me repeat, 20 felony charges for rape, sodomy and aggravated sex abuse of a child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many victims do we need?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. A beautiful, remote, isolated beach turned burial ground after four sets of female remains discovered, dumped like trash, hidden along a quarter-mile stretch of sand. In the last hours, another body, believed to be that of a fifth woman, turns up on that same stretch. Tonight, who is the serial killer stalking young women, locals and tourists alike?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: An isolated and beautiful beachside turns burial ground.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not one body, but ultimately...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Five bodies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Discovered within a quarter of a mile from each other.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Another set of skeletal remains.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were found about one mile east of where the remains of four other women were discovered back in December.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The terrain is horrendous.
GRACE: Clearly, this is not where the murders went down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s tough to get through.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five bodies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Killed somewhere else and dumped near the beach.
GRACE: This is the burial ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like a car pulled up.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are no street lights here.
GRACE: Dump the body and keep going.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We could have a serial killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is a serial killer on the loose in this tony beach community right here on Ocean Parkway, a beautiful beach? Several beaches along this area, and I am standing in a shrubbery area just a few feet away from the highway where a policeman was traveling just a couple of days ago, and he saw something suspicious as he was driving, something that caught his eye. He pulled over, brought his K9 unit out and he discovered a fifth body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. You`re seeing aerial views of where another woman`s body has just been found. This now the fifth body along the same stretch of sand. It is a beautiful, lush but remote stretch of beach. That`s where the rich, the famous, all alike go there, and now it`s turned into a burial ground for a serial killer. How this guy can`t get caught, I don`t know. He`s leaving tracks. He`s leaving a trail for police to find. But still, another woman found dead, now the fifth. How many more will turn up in the same quarter-mile stretch of sand?
Joining me there on the scene, Rupa Mikkilineni. Rupa, first of all, how was the fifth woman found?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, just a couple of days ago, a Marine police officer was driving by in his vehicle and he saw something that caught his eye. Now, we`re not sure exactly what that was, but something didn`t sit right with him. So he pulled over right here, pulled his police vehicle over, got out with his K9 unit and went right down below.
You can see right behind me here. You see the shrubbery here. There`s a little path that is actually clear that you can follow down through here. And just a few feet behind the shrubbery area is where he discovered the fifth body.
GRACE: OK. Rupa Mikkilineni joining us there at Cedar Beach. Rupa, how far away is this fifth body from the other four women found dead on the same beach?
MIKKILINENI: Nancy, one mile, one mile east. So we`re talking about the other four women being found just a mile away this direction.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Tonight, yet another woman`s body. From what we can piece together -- and we`re going to talk to a forensic anthropologist in just a few moments. She also will be taking your questions and your calls. From what we can tell, all the women are white females, skinny, petite, short, about 5 feet tall, all of them weighing around 100 pounds, most of them sandy blond to light brunette. Here you`re seeing a picture of the ones that we know of now. How many more bodies are going to be discovered along this same stretch of sand? And why can`t cops stop it? I mean, does nobody see this guy dump bodies apparently straight out of his car?
Out to the lines. To Mauri in Idaho. Hi, Mauri.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, have the police indicated that this string of serial killings is in any way duplicative to the ones that occurred in Atlantic City? They seem awfully similar.
GRACE: You know what`s interesting, Mauri? That was a question we asked on body number four. To Rupa -- Rupa, do you recall those killings in Atlantic City?
MIKKILINENI: Nancy, I think I do know what you`re talking about, yes.
GRACE: Yes. In those cases, there were four women, also murdered. The bodies were found along a strip of the Atlantic City Motel beach. The women were all barefoot. They were all lying face down in a drainage ditch near the beach. The killer has never been identified.
Out to Terry Sheridan joining us, reporter, 1010. Hi, Terry. What can you tell us about this latest body?
TERRY SHERIDAN, 1010 WINS (VIA TELEPHONE): Well, all we know about the latest body is that it is not the person who was missing since last May and who the investigation into her disappearance led to the discovery of all the bodies. And that is 24-year-old Shannan Gilbert. Police today said that it is definitely not her. So now besides the five bodies that we have, we quite possibly and most likely have a sixth victim.
GRACE: OK. How do we know it`s not Shannan?
SHERIDAN: Police said just through the tests that they were able to complete since they found the body Tuesday night.
GRACE: Joining us is Terry Sheridan, reporter with 1010 WINS. Straight back out to Rupa Mikkilineni, there at Cedar Beach, where the fifth body has been found. OK, Rupa, I want you to describe to me how far the body is from the street. Is it a street -- is it a freeway? Is it a county road? What is it?
MIKKILINENI: This is a freeway. It`s a parkway, Nancy. It`s four lanes, two lanes heading in one direction, two lanes heading the other direction. We`re talking about literally a few yards away from the street is where this shrubbery is. And then literally just behind -- and I`m not even kidding you, it`s just a few feet behind the shrubbery -- is where that body was found.
And Nancy, I want to take you back to some the things that the police have not been releasing, we`re not sure about. But there are some things that they have confirmed. And one of those things, you may recall, at least this body, they`re not saying whether this body was found in a burlap sack. Now, please recall that those four bodies that were found in December further down the beach here, at least two or three of those bodies were wrapped in a burlap sack.
And I think that is quite relevant because you think about it, a burlap sack -- and I`ve got a burlap sack here, which I`d like to just show you, if you want to pan the camera down here. It`s a pretty large sack which absolutely can house somebody my size. I mean, Nancy, I`m about the size of these young women, 100 pounds, 5 foot tall. And so if you see me standing inside this, it comes about to my waist. But it`d be easy to shove a body in here and wrap a body into a burlap sack.
Now, the other thing about the burlap sack is that this community is a fishing community, a clamming community. So the question is, what`s a burlap sack doing here? Well, likely it`s an individual, the killer, maybe is someone affiliated with a fishermen`s -- you know, and so maybe somehow affiliated with a fishermen`s community or a clamming community. I`m not sure. I`m not accusing that particular community here.
GRACE: Well, Rupa, you`re right. In fact, when we first started reporting on this story when the fourth body was discovered, it was stated by many people that were involved in the case that those are the type of bags used by the fishermen in that area when they get -- I guess they`re getting oysters or clams and they`re putting them in those bags and hauling them in.
MIKKILINENI: That`s right. That`s absolutely right.
GRACE: Back to the lines. To Brenda in Texas. Hi, Brenda.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, Nancy. I have a question. When they say that they found a body, there`s -- it`s a difference between finding a body and finding remains as part of the decomposition. And a second question was, do you think this has a correlation to spring break being over for college students and for high school students?
GRACE: Excellent question, Brenda in Texas. First of all, we can get that answered by finding out the condition of the body. Rupa, was she already skeletonized? Is there any soft tissue left at all?
MIKKILINENI: Well, we know that this fifth body found -- the commissioner stated today that the body is, in fact, highly decomposed and had been here for quite some time.
GRACE: We are there on the scene at Cedar Beach, where tonight we learn yet another woman`s body has been found. This beautiful stretch of remote beach has now turned into a burial ground. One, two, three, four, five dead women found. Tonight, we do not know the identity of the fifth body.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like a car pulled up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Over a quarter-mile stretch of beach.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Opened the door.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And dumped her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not one body, but ultimately at least...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Five bodies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Into the brush.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A return to Oak Beach.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The hunt for a suspected serial killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police confirmed that they were again searching for any evidence of missing New Jersey woman Shannan Gilbert.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They said they would be back in the spring. And unfortunately, they found another one. I just hope they don`t find any more.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police go looking for one missing person and they find four bodies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four bodies in the same location.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dumped near the beach.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stuffed in these brushes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just dumped on top of the ground. They weren`t buried.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s disturbing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A suspected serial killer cemetery.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Another set of skeletal remains found dumped on this deserted stretch of Ocean Parkway.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Any suspects? Police won`t say.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We could have a serial killer.
GRACE: Hello? It`s a serial killer!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their manner of death? Police won`t say.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It has to be somebody (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A predator could be possibly living amongst us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Early reports in December stated that several of the bodies found not only were women, but these bodies were wrapped in a burlap bag, like the one that I hold in my hand. And as you can see, these burlap bags, used for storage for coffee beans, for all sorts of possibilities. In this area, this is a fishermen`s community, and some say that clammers use this type of a burlap sack. Now, this burlap sack is large enough for me to crawl into it, and certainly large enough for a body to be stuffed into.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, we learn yet another body has been uncovered there at Cedar Beach. It`s on ritzy Long Island. A stunning -- a stunned community is learning that this stretch of remote and beautiful sand has turned into a burial ground, not one, two, three, four, but now five women found thrown there like trash. How many more will be uncovered?
We are taking your calls. Out to Ruby in Washington. Hi, Ruby.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I have a question. The question is about the body that was found. Was it -- they said a man walking his dog. Wasn`t it another man walking the dog that found the other body, too? And if so, have they -- is there any similarities to these men?
GRACE: OK, the last one that we told you about, the fourth body, was found by a guy walking his dog. As I recall, Jean Casarez, he was an off- duty cop, walking his dog out there. And then this was a cop just doing a drive-by and something caught his eye. They`re not revealing what it was. Is that correct?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": You`re right. And you know what`s so interesting is the focus of these searches has really been for Shannan Gilbert, a young woman that went missing in May. But in December -- let`s look at the timeline -- that`s when they found the first four young women, and then now the fifth one. And there was snow covering the land in December, and it was difficult for them to really search. But now that snow is gone for the moment, and maybe that helped in finding the fifth victim.
GRACE: To Rupa Mikkilineni. They`re absolutely sure that this fifth body is not Shannan Gilbert, correct?
MIKKILINENI: That is correct. They did DNA testing, Nancy. They had Shannan Gilbert`s DNA on hand, and they tested it and they determined it is not her. Now, what they`ve not been able to determine also by the end of today is whether or not this is a female or a male. They are still doing tests regarding this. So this leads us to believe, of course, that the body is highly decomposed.
GRACE: Well, for them to even have DNA, though, suggests that there`s soft tissue on it.
Joining me right now and taking your calls live is board-certified forensic anthropologist, Dr. Leslie Eisenberg. Doctor, thank you for being with us. You know, Doctor...
LESLIE EISENBERG, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST (VIA TELEPHONE): Good to be with you.
GRACE: Thank you. Dr. Eisenberg, it`s my understanding that it is a very simple matter, if you have the skull, to determine whether it`s a man or a woman.
EISENBERG: The skull is important, but more important in order to establish whether badly decomposed or skeletonized remains are those of a man or a woman, you would like first the pelvic bones, and secondly the skull. But in the absence of the pelvic bones, the skull is quite telling. There are many traits and skeletal features that can point to whether a person is a man or a woman.
GRACE: Well, isn`t it a fact that you can actually look at the teeth in the mouth of a skull and determine if it`s a man or a woman? And based on teeth back in the very back of the mouth, you can determine whether it is a white or a European descent female. You can also look at the teeth and determine the age of the female.
EISENBERG: Well, I would not rely on the teeth for that because in some populations, there are small men, and in other populations, there are large women. So I think I would first go to the bones to make that determination.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Another set of skeletal remains found dumped on this deserted stretch of Ocean Parkway.
GRACE: These women`s bodies have clearly been dumped.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tonight, we are taking your calls. Yet another body has been found on a remote and isolated but pristine beach called Cedar Beach.
And I want to go straight back to Dr. Leslie Eisenberg, board- certified forensic anthropologist. I am quoting another forensic anthropologist that states to determine the difference between a male and a female, you actually look at the chin area. And in the females, the midline of the chin is very pointy. On males, it`s actually blunt on the midline. And on either side, if you put your index finger right underneath your lip on the midline, on males, you`ll find two large bumps here. So right away, you know the difference between a male and a female.
And also, if you`ve got a molar, the molars of different races have different shapes and different contours. So you can look at that and tell if they are white or of European ancestry. If it`s a white female, the chewing teeth in the back of the mouth, your molars in white females will have an extra bump on them, a bump that`s on the tongue side of that tooth, the teeth in the back of your mouth.
That`s what I was referring to earlier in my question to you, Dr. Eisenberg. Are you familiar with that technique of determining whether remains are a male or a female?
EISENBERG: Yes, I am, but they are much less convincing. The bump, or the extra cusp you refer to is called a Carabelli`s cusp. And it`s found often in white populations, but it is also found in other populations, as well. So for me, the teeth are more important in determining age instead of sex, assuming you have enough bones to look at.
GRACE: Yes, I was determining sex. And also, as to age that you just mentioned, you expect for roots of molars to be not quite as complete. In fact, the wisdom teeth of many of us get pulled out. For younger females, they may not be pulled out. And also, you can look at enamel, the white part of the teeth, to determine the age, if there is chipping, if there have been fillings, indicative of someone older than a young female. Those are just some of the things you can look at.
To Dr. Robert Kaufman, doctor of internal medicine. How well can you tell from a skeleton that it`s a woman? It`s fairly easy to do.
DR. ROBERT KAUFMAN, INTERNAL MEDICINE: Well, the DNA testing can tell, looking at the chromosomes to see if it`s an X or a Y chromosome. That can clearly tell if it`s a male or a female.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five bodies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the same location.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dumped near the beach.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dumped in these brushes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just dumped on top of the ground. They weren`t buried.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Which would indicate that they were dumped there by the same person or persons.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police say they found more human remains dumped on this deserted stretch of Ocean Parkway.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There are no streetlights here.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The bones investigators say were found about one mile east of where the remains of four other women were discovered.
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": Forms of decomposition.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Wrapped in burlap bags.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are there going to be more bodies found? What`s going on there?
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: They`re convinced that the murders happened elsewhere and then the bodies were dumped here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think it`s a coincidence they were all dumped here by the same person.
GRACE: It`s not like this killer is sneaking up behind women on the beach and kidnapping them in a burlap bag. Oh, no.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We could have a serial killer.
GRACE: They were killed elsewhere. This is the burial ground.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Is a serial killer on the loose in this Tony Beach?
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live, including Rupa Mikkilineni standing there at Cedar Beach where yet a fifth woman`s body has been uncovered.
Joining me right now, a special guest out of South Portland, Maine, Lorraine Ela, the murder of victim Megan Waterman.
Miss Ela, thank you for being with us.
LORRAINE ELA, MOTHER OF MEGAN WATERMAN, BODY FOUND DUMPED ON BEACH: Thank you.
GRACE: Miss Ela, what is your response to yet another young girl`s body being found along this same stretch of sand where your daughter was found?
ELA: What`s my feelings on it? Whoever is doing this, they need to be caught. It`s not fair for these young girls to have to go through this or their families.
GRACE: Let`s see a shot of Megan Waterman. Just the sweetest thing. Did -- was Megan a mother?
ELA: She was. Her daughter Ashley just turned 4 last September.
GRACE: And what area of town -- where was she last known to be alive?
ELA: In New York.
GRACE: Now how far away is that from Cedar Beach?
ELA: Where Megan was found, it was actually 14 miles from the hotel she was last seen at.
GRACE: What do you tell her little girl about where`s mommy?
ELA: The thing that we have told my granddaughter was that her mommy is an angel in heaven. Taking care of God`s children.
GRACE: You know, Miss Ela, I`m just wondering how her little girl responds to that, at age 4. She probably does not question it, does she?
ELA: She did at first. She cried.
GRACE: You know, I just had to go out of town for work, and I did not want to go so badly. I did not want to leave the twins. And my mom was there with them. And of course, their father. My mother and father, and my husband. And they said in the morning, the children would just cry.
And when they would be happy playing, they wouldn`t notice that I was gone. But when they would be tired, or when it was naptime, or first thing in the morning when, you know, I`d wake them up or put them to bed at night, they would just cry and cry. And I was only gone a couple of days. I can`t imagine this little girl being without her mother.
ELA: It`s very hard. For her daughter. She has (INAUDIBLE) that she says it`s her mommy. She looked at her mom`s picture that`s on her wall in her bedroom.
GRACE: When she looks at her mom`s picture, what does she say?
ELA: Where`s my mommy? Why did they do this to her?
GRACE: Now, hearing you talk, Miss Ela, and looking at this brush along that beach, just thinking of whoever killed her, dumping her there, and Miss Ela, other than -- aside from her own daughter, you`re her mother. You know, I thought I knew what love was until I had the twins. How do you go on knowing this happened to your girl?
ELA: Me and my family, we have ups and downs. We have our days. We have OK days. We`re just glad that Megan was found. And that we know now that nobody can ever hurt my daughter again.
GRACE: Well, Lorraine, I want you to know that I think your daughter is absolutely beautiful, on the inside and the outside. And I know her daughter is going to be raised up to be beautiful as well.
To C.W. Jensen, retired police captain joining us tonight out of Phoenix.
C.W., weigh in.
C.W. JENSEN, RETIRED PORTLAND POLICE CAPTAIN: Well, I think one of the sad things, Nancy, is that these women went missing, and it took such a long period of time even to discover their bodies. So I kind of wonder, you know, what we can do better really as law enforcement, or as a society when young women go missing, that there`s not more attention to it, and we don`t put more of an investigation into it. I think this is kind of a sad case to look at.
GRACE: Well, it is.
We are taking your calls. But right now, I`m not as much sad as I am determined to find out who killed now five women. This remote and beautiful sandy stretch of beach has turned into a burial ground for these five. That we know of.
What I don`t understand, Rupa Mikkilineni, is after they found four dead bodies there -- I mean, the fifth dead body is only about a mile away. Was that sand not searched as well?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Nancy, the bodies were found in December when it was very cold. This is all snow-covered. And at some point, what they did do is block off a certain area and they searched after they found those bodies, Nancy.
And they did not find any other bodies. And then they resumed the search obviously by just pure coincidence when this other police officer is driving by and saw something that caught his attention.
And I want to point out to you, Nancy, that this area, right now we`ve got it lit up. With know with the truck lights and all of the lights that we`ve got going on. But in fact, this area is pitch black. And when I mean pitch black, nothing, no street lights, no street lamps, nothing.
So it is so easy for someone to pull over in a car, pull out a body from a trunk and dump it. And actually if you look at the spot which I saw earlier today, where this fifth body was found, you`ll see that it literally is only a few feet away. He didn`t go -- the killer didn`t go very far from this side of this road to dump this body -- Nancy.
GRACE: You are seeing the spot there with Rupa. This is just beyond where the body was found.
Rupa, you`re standing not too far from the street. You`re earlier describing how easy it would be to put a petite woman like yourself -- all of these women were skinny, white, petite, small boned, most of them were blonde, or sandy brown headed. They all have a common appearance. They`ve all been disposed of in the same area. And all but one of them had remnants of -- or were buried in, thrown away in a burlap bag, correct or not?
MIKKILINENI: That`s correct, Nancy. And I`m holding a burlap bag in my hand right now that could be similar -- and we`re not sure 100 percent if this is exactly the type of burlap sack, but this is a burlap sack that`s common. This is a coffee bean -- a coffee burlap sack. But most burlap sacks in this area, particularly ones in the fishermen`s community and the clamming community, resemble a burlap sack like this.
And they`re about this size, Nancy. And I want you to see very clearly, I`m holding it up. And look at me compared to the sack. I could fit in easily.
GRACE: Well, have the cops -- now that they`ve found the fifth body - - considered maybe going a mile the other way and then a couple of miles in either direction to look for more bodies? Has that crossed their minds yet?
MIKKILINENI: Nancy, absolutely. And they were here all day yesterday with dogs, helicopters, police search units searching. Today they had some rain, they had some bad weather which made it very difficult for dogs to help them.
GRACE: Yes.
MIKKILINENI: And further them in their search which is why they stopped the search. But they`re resuming again tomorrow.
GRACE: And Rupa, don`t get me wrong, if it weren`t for them, the other bodies would never have been uncovered. And those families would still be wondering where their daughters are, where their mothers are.
We are taking your calls. Out to Jamie in Ohio. Hi, Jamie.
JAMIE, CALLER FROM OHIO: Hi, Nancy. Love you and the show.
GRACE: Thank you, dear. What is your question?
JAMIE: I was just wondering. We kind of got partial answers from the mother of the one victim. But I was just wondering of the other three that were identified, if they were reported missing, if they were reported missing from the same area? Any ties like that?
GRACE: OK. To Terry Sheridan, reporter with 1010 WINS joining us.
Terry, were they reported missing soon after they disappeared?
TERRY SHERIDAN, REPORTER, 1010 WINS: They were all reported missing. Some immediately, some not. Several of them were estranged from their families. But all the four that were found were at some point reported missing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police now looking at the possibility it`s the work of a serial killer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You certainly have to look at that, you know, somebody targeted these individuals and dumped them in the same place.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKKILINENI: I am standing in the very spot where just this week a fifth body, yes, a fifth body was found. Now, we don`t know if this body is a female or male. Police are working around the clock to have this body identified. And this, after four other bodies found just about a mile down the road in December. Police believe a serial killer is involved.
Now this is the spot where the fifth body was found. What we don`t know if it was found in a burlap sack, like the other bodies were found in. At least three of the four bodies found last December were found in a burlap sack.
GRACE: Heather, a lot of questions for you tonight. Number one, how can you look at a jawbone? I can understand with possibly the chest bones, the pelvic bones, maybe the legs, but how can you look at a jawbone and tell the difference between a male and female adult?
HEATHER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST, FLORIDA GULF COAST UNIVERSITY: Well, what you do is you actually look at the chin area. And in females, the midline of the chin is very pointy. In males, it`s actually blunt on the midline, and then on either side, let`s say if you put your index finger right underneath your lip on the midline, on males you`ll have two large bumps there. So right away you can tell the difference between male and female.
GRACE: So it`s just that easy?
WALSH-HANEY: It is that easy, I promise.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. The body of the fifth woman yet to be identified.
Let`s go straight out to the lawyers. Unleash the lawyers, Elizabeth.
To Eleanor Odom, senior attorney, National DA`s Association, joining us out of D.C. Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, Atlanta. Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta.
First of all, Eleanor, they are not releasing the cause of death on any of them. Why?
ELEANOR ODOM, FELONY PROSECUTOR, DEATH PENALTY QUALIFIED: Well, they want to keep that to themselves because there are only two people or two groups of people who know this. Law enforcement officers and the killer, Nancy. And they`re probably looking to see how similar they are. And my guess is they`re all killed in the same manner.
GRACE: OK. Renee, Peter, let`s put our minds to it. OK, we`re not being defense attorneys or prosecutors right now. I believe that the killer is not necessarily local to the area, but has either vacationed or visited or lived there at some time.
What about it, Renee?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Or maybe it`s somebody like an 18- wheeler driver, Nancy, that`s passing by that road and said, this is great, there`s no lights. Maybe someone that hauls seafood and can conceal that body.
If the body was even decomposed before it was dumped, or held on to the body in some other clandestine place. It`s somebody that I think passes that way, may not be local, Nancy.
GRACE: What about it, Peter Odom?
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It strikes me, Nancy, as very curious that someone would dump all these four bodies in the same area. It almost seems that they`re asking to be caught.
And here`s what I mean by that. If this person were to have dropped these bodies in areas 15 or 20 minutes away in other jurisdictions, the police might never make the connection among these corpses. Being dropped all in the same place, the police are going to make the connection and call him a serial killer.
GRACE: To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers."
Bethany, I disagree. I think that it`s just -- I don`t think criminals are all that smart. I think that this guy dumped a body, he never got caught, he said, hey, I`ll do it again, the same way shoplifters go back to the same stores quite often. And he kept doing it and doing it and doing it. And now he`s been caught.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Or -- the third possibility is serial killers are very ritualized in their killing pattern. So that he has a very distinct offending pattern, which starts with the gathering of the accoutrement for death. Meaning he probably gathers the burlap bag lovingly. He fantasizes about killing somebody.
Serial killers have a very rich fantasy life, really with a lot of sadistic sexual fantasies. You can find a lot of pornography on their computers. Eventually that erupts over into the wish to kill. They select a victim, part of the ritual is selecting the same victim type, and then this guy has incorporated this geographical location into his ritualistic fantasy, and probably dumping them near the road, narrowly being caught.
He may -- Renee Rockwell is right. He may drive back and forth up and down that freeway lovingly looking at his trophies which is another part of the ritual.
GRACE: To C.W. Jensen, retired police captain. Who`s the killer, C.W.? What kind of person is the killer?
JENSEN: Well, Nancy, what I found in my career, and what I think research tells us, is generally what we`re probably looking for is a white male between the ages of, say, 20 and 40.
I think you`re absolutely spot-on in what you said. These guys are not rocket scientists. They`re not clever -- too clever by half. So you know it`s pretty simple. I think that he is probably in the area somewhere, so that this is a very convenient way to go.
I don`t see a guy driving 60 miles to dump a body. So it`s a place that he`s taken these bodies. He feels comfortable there. I agree with all of the things about ritualism. That`s what these guys do. They keep souvenirs, all sorts of things. It`s as creepy as you can imagine.
GRACE: You know, to Dr. Bethany Marshall, I`m just going to put it on out there. Occasionally you`ll get a minority serial killer and they`ll be highly publicized. But typically they`re loner white guys. What`s with that?
MARSHALL: You know what, you`re right, and C.W. Jensen is right, too.
GRACE: You know, you don`t ever --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: -- hear of anybody but lonely white guys grabbing these victims with these elaborate plans and skinning their bodies and boiling them over the stove. It`s always freaky lonely white guys.
MARSHALL: But think about it, they`re extremely personality disorders. Psychopaths rely on extreme cruelty in order to create sexual excitement. So they relate to others on the basis of power and control.
Nancy, sometimes they are married, but the research shows that when they`re married, they usually have a very passive wife, two children, and a family type vehicle. That`s what the research says. And the wife will be firmly under their control.
Look at the BTK killer, he was in control of the neighborhood, the community, his wife, everybody.
GRACE: And not only that, he was a dogcatcher.
(CROSSTALK)
MARSHALL: Right.
GRACE: Just factor that occupation into the scenario.
Out to the lines, Quizzie in Georgia. Hi, Quizzie.
QUIZZIE, CALLER FROM GEORGIA: Hi, Nancy. First of all, I give my respect and condolences to the victim and loved ones they left behind.
GRACE: Yes.
QUIZZIE: I`ll make this super fast. I have two questions and a comment. My first question is that, have they ruled out the possibility that the suspect is in fact a female? And that she may have an accomplice?
GRACE: OK.
QUIZZIE: And my second question is that, is the suspect could be in the criminal field? The suspect knows where --
GRACE: OK. Hold, Quizzie. Hold, Quizzie.
Number one, Eleanor, I can tell you right now, the killer is a man. But what about them being in criminal justice?
E. ODOM: Well, they may be, Nancy. But my guess is he`s a prior criminal. He`s not -- that`s how he`s in criminal justice.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: A Utah man facing 21 counts of child rape now claims he`s incompetent to stand trial and they`re just letting him go.
To Jim Kirkwood, KTKK Radio. In a nutshell, Jim, what`s happening?
JIM KIRKWOOD, NEWS SHOW HOST, KTKK: Well, the hearing this afternoon, there was a good chance they were going to let him walk because of a gap in Utah law. He had been declared incompetent by a judge, and then the doctors at the state mental hospital said he was competent not to face trial, but to go free and they didn`t think he was a danger to society.
GRACE: OK. Right there, Jim Kirkwood, I`ve got a problem.
Annie Cutler, with KTVX. So what -- they said he was competent to be set free but not competent to stand trial?
ANNIE CUTLER, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE KTVX: Right. That`s exactly what everyone is saying in this case, Nancy. I mean essentially the judge ruled that Johnson, Lonnie Johnson was not competent to stand trial. He`s been spending the last year and a half at the Utah State Hospital, but the doctors there are now saying there`s nothing more they can do for him and they don`t deem him a substantial danger to society. So that`s sort of a loophole there, for lack of a better word.
GRACE: Well -- to Craig Johnson, the deputy Utah attorney in court today.
Craig, you`re fighting it, what`s the chances you could keep this guy behind bars?
CRAIG JOHNSON, DEPUTY UTAH ATTORNEY: Well, I`m hoping that they`ll look pretty good. We`ve had an extremely frustrating two weeks. But we`re very encouraged by the developments of the last 24 hours. There`s a civil commitment hearing at 9:00 a.m. Mountain Standard Time tomorrow morning where I will aggressively argue to the mental state hospital judge for civil commitment that he has a mental illness and that he is an obvious danger to society.
GRACE: With me is Craig Johnson, out in Utah.
Craig, I want you to join us again. I want to find out what happens.
Everybody, please, your thoughts with Craig Johnson tomorrow in Utah as he tries to keep a convicted child sex predator behind bars. And believe me, we will follow up.
Let`s stop and remember Army Sergeant Julia Atkins, 22, Bossier City, Louisiana, killed Iraq. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation. Took care of her family at a young age after death of their mother, Johnnie.
Loved dancing, animals, food, dreamed of being a vet or chef. Leaves behind father, Billy, sister, Shiri and Tawanna, brother Larry.
Julia Atkins, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you. And a special good night from Michigan and New York friend Mary, Sharon, Mary and Kevin.
What a beautiful bunch.
And tonight our prayers to Watertown, New York friend Bill Fitz Fitzgerald. A senior air marshal fighting cancer. Here he is with his gorgeous 15-year-old girl, Morgan.
What a beauty.
Bill, you have so much to live for and we love you. Please stay strong.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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