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Nancy Grace
Casey Anthony`s Mother Admits Covering up Odor in Car With Dryer Sheets
Aired April 08, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today.
It was the worst thing I had ever smelled in my life.
And it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you do anything to the trunk of the car?
CINDY ANTHONY: I sprayed the entire car with Febreze. I used almost a whole can.
There was no odor in the car when it was towed down to the towing company. No odor.
And then I put dryer sheets throughout the car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you referring to fabric softeners?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.
There was a bag of pizza for what, 12 days, in the back of the car, full of maggots. It stunk so bad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why`d you do that?
CINDY ANTHONY: Because there was an odor in the trunk of the car.
There was no odor in the car. No odor.
It was the worst thing I had ever smelled in my life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You, in fact, said in your deposition that you did not put dryer sheets, at least not in the back seat of the car, and you had no reason why you could have. Can you explain why you`re testifying today that you did put those items in the car?
CINDY ANTHONY: Because I remember that I did. You know, that was very traumatic for me and it`s still very traumatic for me. I get bits and pieces of stuff that continues to come back to me in my memory.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is going through a nightmare. She`s also someone`s child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are Casey Anthony`s mother?
CINDY ANTHONY: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the search for a 2-year- old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminates when skeleton remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles upon a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash. Is tot`s mom defense set to point the finger at grandfather George Anthony for Caylee`s murder? Who else will she blame?
Bombshell tonight. Did grandmother Cindy Anthony change her story under oath, pulling a 180 about her clean-up of tot mom`s car`s dead body stench? Did Cindy Anthony drench the car and the trunk with Febreze, then dryer sheets, to get rid of the smell?
Torpedo to the state tonight. The judge rules jurors will neither see nor hear of tot mom behind bar doubling over, hyperventilating when she learns police find Caylee`s body. But photos of tot mom in miniskirts and push-up bras partying in the days and hours after Caylee goes missing will go to the jury. The countdown to trial begins now.
To Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." Jean, respond to the judge`s ruling. Set me straight. Now, I recall tot mom was behind bars. Nobody had found the body. And then there were several searches in this place and that, no reaction. But when she finds out that -- she`s seeing a TV behind bars. She`s seeing the local coverage. Let`s see the local coverage, Dana. What she saw was them out there looking for the body. The big banner at the bottom says, "Has Caylee been found?" She allegedly doubles over, turns red in the face and hands, asks for medication, says her handcuffs are too tight. Look, look, look! Look, this is what she saw.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHI BELICH, WFTV: ... in or around that bag. They`re not disturbing it. The crime scene investigators are here, and they will very carefully approach the scene. They don`t want to disturb anything. There might be footprints. There might be tire tracks. There might be other things in the area that they don`t want to disturb. And of course, this rain is creating a challenge for them, as well. I`m guessing that they`re probably trying to set up some sort of a tent area over there. Maybe you can see better from the helicopter whether they`re doing that, in fact, so that the rain doesn`t disturb everything. Obviously, it`s been probably out there for months, as it is, through several storms as well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Reports are that that is what tot mom saw behind bars. She saw Kathi Belich reporting on the discovery of her 2-year-old daughter`s remains. Describe her reaction as we know it, Jean Casarez.
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Well, her reaction was one that we have heard is that she started hyperventilating. They had never seen such emotion in her. It was videotaped from stationary security cameras. But Nancy, right before the judge was to rule on this motion, prosecution stepped forward and said, Your honor, we will not be trying to enter this video into evidence.
GRACE: But why, Jean?
CASAREZ: Appealable issue.
GRACE: Well, everything`s an appealable issue (INAUDIBLE)
CASAREZ: I think they believe the prejudice could override the probative value with an appellate court.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. We`re taking your calls live. First of all, Doug Burns, former prosecutor turned defense lawyer, New York, famed defense attorney Daniel Horowitz out of the San Francisco area.
Daniel Horowitz, every thing, every scintilla of evidence the state brings on at trial is going to be prejudicial. This is a death penalty murder trial. They`re not bringing on photos of her at her debutante ball in the 12th grade. No! That`s not what`s happening. So everything`s going to be prejudicial. Explain to me -- here she is crying on Friday in court. Explain to me, Horowitz, the probative and prejudicial value, in a nutshell, of her hyperventilating, doubling over. She didn`t cry. She just turned red and said her handcuffs were too tight when she saw Caylee`s body had been found.
DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. So we`re going to blame her because her reaction to her daughter`s body being found isn`t the way that we think it should be. There`s some magical standard that we, the people watching her on television and in the courtroom, know better than the victims of the crimes how they should react. She is the mother of a daughter who died.
GRACE: OK, Daniel...
HOROWITZ: Don`t blame her for killing the daughter just by her reaction.
GRACE: Daniel, yes, I didn`t ask you to get up on your soapbox. I appreciate that. Doug, can we just get the answer to my question? What was the state trying to prove when they sought to enter this into evidence?
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They`re trying to show that a reaction is consciousness of guilt. But I`ll tell you what, Nancy, seriously. I have to point out that -- let`s say she didn`t react at all. I think that would be much stronger for the prosecution.
GRACE: OK, Doug and Daniel...
BURNS: Seriously.
GRACE: ... let -- let me clue you in on where I thought the state -- where I think the state was going. There were many other searches, including Leonard Padilla, the bounty hunter. He searched the Little Econ River. That was on the news over and over. And people within the jail said she`d look at that and go, Huh, and keep on walking. But when she saw where they were searching, she doubled over and started hyperventilating. Are you with me?
Sheryl McCollum, straighten out the lawyers!
SHERYL MCCOLLUM, CRIME ANALYST: I`m with you. She reacted to that scene before they had identified the baby. She reacted because she knew damn well where the baby was.
GRACE: Exactly! To Leonard Padilla, joining us, bounty hunter out of Sacramento, California. He bailed tot mom out of jail one time. Leonard, remember when you searched -- you organized a search, the Little Econ River. You also, I believe, were part of a search in the Jay Blanchard (ph) Park where she said that Caylee had been kidnapped and snatched by the nanny.
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Well...
GRACE: When all of that happened...
PADILLA: ... the Little Econ...
GRACE: ... it would be on the news, and tot mom would have no reaction whatsoever. She`d just go, Huh, and just keep on going.
PADILLA: Yes. The Little Econ is part of the Jay Blanchard park. And that`s absolutely correct. We were out there for a full day, and when we thought we had something -- because a lot of people don`t realize it, but these were all professional divers that had volunteered their time. There were Coast Guard, deputy sheriffs and local firemen. They weren`t...
GRACE: We are taking your calls.
PADILLA: ... amateurs.
GRACE: Out to Shylyne in Ohio. Hi, Shylyne.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, Nancy.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, my question is on behalf of George Anthony and the notion that Casey`s defense is now pointing the finger at George Anthony. I`d like to know if he has a lawyer and if there`s anything he can maybe do to fight back charges of slander because I think he`s been through enough and it`s ridiculous.
GRACE: Well, I`ve got to agree with you, Shylyne in Ohio, that George Anthony has been through enough. Actually, with me tonight is a special guest out of Orlando. It`s renowned attorney Mark Nejame. He is the former attorney for Cindy and George Anthony. He chose to come off the case. Mark Nejame, thank you for being with us.
MARK NEJAME, FMR. ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Nice to be here, Nancy. Thank you.
GRACE: I know you`ll not divulge any attorney-client confidentiality because that goes with you, whether you`re still representing them or not. But why did you come off the case?
NEJAME: It was stated publicly, and I had their blessings, in fact, by their PR person at the time, in order to be an adviser, you have to have people following your advice, and if my advice not to make statements and go public on certain matters was not followed, then I didn`t feel like I could be effective.
GRACE: Now, Mark Nejame, you have a very long list of successful cases that you have represented. But let me remind you, Mr. Nejame, that your statement at the time was, I terminated my representation after I, quote, "had enough of you not following advice, being deceptive, and working against the cause of finding Caylee and shifting your focus to defending Casey." Ringing a bell?
NEJAME: Well, that`s quite different. That was a private letter that I sent and I had never divulged that publicly, and the first time it`s ever being discussed publicly is right now. What happened is, is that I had sent a private letter to them, and for some reason, the defendant`s attorney, Mr. Baez, found it in his possession. And that was only sent to George and Cindy Anthony. So apparently, it was provided to Mr. Baez by them, and in fact, it was attached to one of his motions, so it`s now public. And of course, there would be no lawyer-client privilege which would now attach because somebody -- they`ve apparently chosen to have it be made public.
So the fact of the matter is, that private, which you just read, letter from me to them stated that -- very much what you`ve just said. I felt like it was not -- my goal was to find out what happened to this child, and if it led to their daughter, so be it. And that was the agreement that I agreed -- that they agreed to go with if I was going to represent them. When I thought...
GRACE: You know, Mr. Nejame...
NEJAME: ... it was going in a different direction, I got off.
GRACE: Mr. Nejame, many of us respect your record as an attorney. I`m going to ask the other lawyers to comment on this to save you from having to comment on it. These are your clients, in effect, still.
Daniel Horowitz, when the lawyer comes off the case and the next lawyer releases this statement, that`s a big boo-boo. Why would Baez release a letter, a private letter from Nejame saying, You`re being deceptive and you`re not trying to find Caylee, you`re trying to defend Casey? What about it, Horowitz?
HOROWITZ: I think Baez is playing to the media. He`s not doing what`s best for his client and he`s going to hurt his defense team. There`s going to be fights in that defense team because of his tactics. You watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The child was put into a plastic bag, then another plastic bag, then a third plastic bag, and then duct tape around her face so tight that it took off her hair! This was no accident.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I love her dearly and I want nothing more than for her to come home and to be safe and to be where she belongs with her family.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County utilities emergency dispatch. We`ve found a human skull.
911 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s right off of Suburban and Chickasaw in the Caylee Anthony area, right by the (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Oh!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the first time Casey has had an anxiety attack and asked for sedatives.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Really shallow breathing. Her hands started to sweat.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: I would give my life right this second to have her be dropped off in front of all of us. I would do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that he had text-messaged family members that he wanted to end his life.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A suicide note in his possession.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He used words like he wanted to be with Caylee.
GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) that I am the one that actually taught her "You Are My Sunshine." She was my sunshine.
CASEY ANTHONY: I wish that none of this would have ever happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Evidence suppressed, evidence coming in, we learn evidence against tot mom of her reaction when she finds out the location where police are searching for this child`s body -- the jury will never see it. It was actually caught on video behind jailhouse bars. They`ll never see it. They`ll never hear about it.
Now, is the defense planning to blame George Anthony? Also, what do Febreze and Bounce have to do with a murder trial? Help me out, Drew Petrimoulx, joining me there in Orlando. What does this have to do with a murder trial?
DREW PETRIMOULX, WDBO RADIO: Well, you know, in the initial -- when this -- when Cindy Anthony first learned of what had happened, she made comments that the smell in the car of Casey Anthony`s trunk smelled like death. And she -- in court the other day, she testified that she sprayed Febreze in the car and also put dryer sheets in there to try to, you know, get rid of some of that smell.
But the prosecution took issue with that because he said that she was changing her testimony. In depositions, she said she sprayed it with Febreze but never actually used the dryer seats. So the prosecution accused her of basically changing up her testimony and called her out in court for that.
GRACE: Jean Casarez, exactly what went down?
CASAREZ: All right. On July 15, 2008, when the car was finally in the family`s garage, the doors were opened, the trunk was opened for 10 hours almost. She said on direct examination that she sprayed almost an entire bottle of Febreze because, she said, at the time, It was the worst smell I had ever smelled in my life. But she was impeached by her deposition in 2009 when she said, I don`t know anything about dryer sheets in the car.
GRACE: So long story short, either she forgot it in all the drama that`s been going on, or it`s more nefarious, where she actually lied to cover it up. I don`t know. I just don`t see her lying about this. She`s already saying, I used Febreze or I used these dryer seats. What difference if she used something else, as well? The words are damming -- "It smells like a dead body in the damn car."
Out to Ellie Jostad. What else has been going down in the courtroom? We know tot mom has been in the courtroom the last days. Why?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. Well, she`s been there for all of these hearings, very important hearings on what evidence is going to be admitted, very important scientific evidence like tests in the air in her car, air that, according to the state`s expert, showed the signs of human decomposition. So Casey Anthony has been there for all those hearings. On Friday, we saw her actually mouth "I love you" to her mother, which was something we haven`t seen an exchange like them for a while.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Terry in Maryland. Hi, Terry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Love you!
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you so much for being an advocate for Caylee.
GRACE: And thank you for calling in. What is your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have a comment and a question.
GRACE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the correctional facility that Casey is in -- are they giving her some sort of sedative for her to be composed during these court proceedings? I mean, she shows no emotion. We`re talking about her child being dead.
GRACE: That`s a good question. Jean Casarez, do we know?
CASAREZ: OK, first of all, I`ve really studied her. I think she does show emotion. Emotion toward Caylee, no. I do not see emotion toward Caylee. But I`ve seen her with a lot of smiles and intensity in writing. I`ve seen her hit Jose Baez`s leg when she thought something went well. So I do see reaction. I do see emotion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: She loves that child.
I feel that my daughter from day one has gotten -- she has been a victim just as much as Caylee.
CASEY ANTHONY: I need to be looked at as a victim. I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: All it seemed like from day one, you guys were building a case against Casey as a murderer.
CASEY ANTHONY: Mommy loves her very much. She`s the most important thing in this entire world to me!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Anthony`s party photos.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: High levels of chloroform found in the trunk of Casey`s car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You in the habit of keeping chloroform in your garage or in your house?
CINDY ANTHONY: No, I`ve never worked with chloroform or ever been around chloroform.
CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on!
CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down, baby.
CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s letting me speak!
CINDY ANTHONY: I still believe my daughter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. According to some reports, Cindy Anthony, doing a 180, changing her testimony about the stench of death in tot mom`s car. Take me back, Jean Casarez. Take me back to when she discovered tot mom`s car. What happened?
CASAREZ: Well, that was back in July 2008. She finally was able to track down the car. It had been taken to a tow yard. She got it back to the home, along with George Anthony, and the smell -- and we know from that 911 call, she talked about it smelled like there`d been a "dead body in the damn car." And that`s when she got out the Febreze. But now it is aiding the defense, if the defense has their way, because they say Febreze equals chloroform.
GRACE: OK, they`re saying the chloroform in the car is caused by Febreze?
CASAREZ: Among other things, yes, that it transcends (ph) into chloroform, so it wasn`t decomposition that Dr. Arpad Vast (ph) may have testified to in his -- in his studies, but it was actually fabric softener.
GRACE: With us tonight in an exclusive interview is a world-renowned professor of forensic science. Dr. Henry Lee is with us. And as you know, Dr. Lee formerly on the defense team for tot mom. Dr. Lee, thank you for being with us.
DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST, FMR. CONSULTANT TO DEFENSE TEAM: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Dr. Lee, let me ask you about the claim that Cindy Anthony spraying Febreze throughout her daughter`s car and car trunk would then somehow mysteriously turn into the knockout drug chloroform. Is there any scientific evidence to support that?
LEE: Well, first of all, you know, there are a lot of garbage -- and the garbage bag was found in the trunk. I did examine those contents. It`s over 100 items. Have (ph) coroni (ph), half-eaten pizza, have rotten food material, have tobacco chew. It`s a long list of. Also have a nasal secretion and spit. And after so many months, still smell awful. Those are basically the decomposition odor. Also in there, have a lot of bottles of material, chemicals. And what are those chemical composition? What did the mother spray in there, of course, becoming (ph) important. The mom have (ph) chloroform not going to make it decision, you know, the factor.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to take you back to July 15th, 2008.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It started around that time.
CINDY ANTHONY: I found my daughter`s car today.
There was an odor in the trunk of the car.
And it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!
There`s an odor in the whole car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two dead squirrels crawled up under the hood of the car.
CINDY ANTHONY: I sprayed the entire car...
-- the entire car...
-- the entire car with Febreze.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Unimaginable stench.
CINDY ANTHONY: I used almost a whole...
-- whole...
-- whole can.
We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl!
CASEY ANTHONY: The media`s going to have a frickin` field day with this!
CINDY ANTHONY: And then I put dryer sheets...
I put dryer sheets throughout...
-- throughout the car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls life. The defense coming up with the novel theory that when Cindy Anthony sprayed Febreze and used dryer sheets in the car, tot mom`s car, to get rid of the smell of a dead body, somehow this turned into the knockout drug chloroform. Recall on tot mom`s computer, a shared computer, there were searches about how to make homemade chloroform?
Back to Dr. Henry Lee, renowned distinguished professor of forensic scientist -- science at University of New Haven, former consultant to the tot mom defense team. So Dr. Henry Lee, I was taking in what you said, but I never heard an answer. Does Febreze turn into chloroform? Because if it does, why is it being used in millions of American households every day? If somebody squirts this in my twins` room and I think it`s going to turn into chloroform? I don`t believe that.
LEE: Well, I don`t think it`s what turn to chloroform, but chloroform just one of the component of the Febreze. You have to look at manufacture product sheet to see what...
GRACE: I`m looking at it.
LEE: ... the active ingredient -- yes?
GRACE: It says water, alcohol, odor eliminator derived from corn, fragrance. That`s what it is. That`s everything in there.
LEE: So there no chloroform. So what probably she say she spray that into the car, which why everybody yell (ph) at her. If that does not turn to the chloroform, then it`s academic.
GRACE: You know, you`re right, Dr. Lee. And see, Dr. Lee, we`re just lawyers here. We don`t really know what you`re saying, but I think what you`re saying in a very scientific way that only other scientists can understand is Febreze does not turn into chloroform.
LEE: Right. If it`s not turn into chloroform, why -- what`s the argument?
GRACE: Got it.
LEE: It`s not (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. And of course, Jean Casarez, the jury`s out, so to speak. The judge hasn`t ruled on whether this evidence is going to come in that her trunk reeked of chloroform.
CASAREZ: Right. Nancy, can I quote to you the defense? Jose Baez, cross-examined Dr. Arpad Vast (ph) from Oak Ridge Laboratory and said, quote, "Do you know fabric softeners give off chloroform?" The answer -- doesn`t sound logical to me -- "It`s a carcinogen." But that was the question.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Jessica in Texas. Hi, Jessica. Do I have Jessica? Shannon in Mississippi. Hi, Shannon.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was wondering, is Cindy Anthony`s 911 call -- is it going to be admissible in court?
GRACE: I don`t see why it would not be. To Ellie Jostad. It is coming into evidence, correct?
JOSTAD: Yes, that`s right. And remember, Nancy, she actually made three calls that night, and it`s the third call where she`s the most frantic and says that the car smells like there`s been a body inside.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Sue in Georgia. Hi, Sue. Do I have Sue with me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. What I`m wondering is if (INAUDIBLE) if they`re going to focus on George Anthony now, the defense. And (INAUDIBLE) Casey...
GRACE: They are claiming, Sue, that they`re not. But the reality is, they have added witnesses to their witness list. Let me see that footage, Dana, when George Anthony had had it up to here with all the people in his front yard and he started pushing them back. Two of those ladies that he pushed back are added to the defense list.
Now, apparently, there`s quite a lot they can bring on against George. Of course, in my mind, none of it amounts to a hill of beans. But Jean, what about the so-called suicide attempt and the alleged affair he had with somebody? Let me remind you, Jean Casarez, as if you need it, that that other woman -- I called that night. I did not believe he -- she had an affair with George Anthony. It turns out now she says they had more of an affair of the heart.
OK, listen, Jean, if they didn`t have sex, they didn`t have an affair. I think Clinton kind of established that, OK? So there was no affair. But the significance of her testimony is she said George Anthony told her that Caylee`s death was an accident. There`s that shot. My question to you is, is the alleged affair, is the suicide attempt, coming in, in addition to these two witnesses, to frame George Anthony?
CASAREZ: Is it relevant, though? Because if the defense brings in that it was an accident that snowballed out of controlled, they`re admitting it, right?
GRACE: No, they`re not going to do that.
(CROSSTALK)
CASAREZ: The prosecution isn`t going to want it to come in, either, because they don`t want the jury to think it`s an accident.
GRACE: But -- unleash the lawyers. Mark Nejame, former attorney for George and Cindy Anthony joining us out of Orlando, Doug Burns, New York, Daniel Horowitz, San Francisco.
To Mark Nejame. You know, when your client is looking at the Florida death penalty -- and they are not afraid of giving the death penalty in Florida, all right? It seems to me that George is the kind of guy that would take the stand knowing that he was going to have to fall on the sword and play along. He`s never going to be charged with murder because he didn`t do it. But to try to shift blame on him to save his daughter, tot mom -- could that happen, Mark Nejame?
NEJAME: I don`t see it. I do see that the defense may try to bring this up as a defense. Every time they`ve had a defense throughout this case, they`ve signaled it to the press. They`ve told the prosecutor. They`ve told the enemy their battle plans. It`s been absurd and it`s allowed everybody to show what their defense is was ridiculous. I think that there`s a very good chance, in light of a couple of the points you`ve raised as far as the additional people on the witness list, that the defense could throw that out there and try to cast reasonable doubt in a juror`s mind. It would not surprise me for the defense to do this, and I think the prosecution needs to be totally prepared for this possible strategy.
GRACE: Well, you know, Mark, from the very beginning, it`s seemed to me on the outside looking in -- I don`t know these people, but I have been a victim of violent crime and lost someone that I love. But it seems to me that they`ve lost Caylee, now they`re just trying to hang on to Casey. And they don`t want to know anything about her possibly committing the murder. At most, they may have convinced themselves that there was an accident.
But I could see George being a stand-up guy and trying to let them blame him at trial. To the other lawyers -- Doug Burns, Daniel Horowitz. There`s a lot of people they seem to be pointing the finger at. To you, Doug Burns. There was the former fiance. There was boyfriends. There`s Jessie Grund. She was engaged to him. There was the -- Tony Lazaro that she was dating around the time the child goes missing. I could very well see them putting these people out there as a suggested killer.
BURNS: No, I think that`s a good point. There`s a lot of cast of characters and a lot they could do. But back to George. You know, my observation all along is he was in a brutal box, losing the granddaughter and his own daughter accused.
GRACE: And what about the alleged suicide attempt? To you, Daniel Horowitz. Could it be played that he did that out of guilt, which, of course, we all know is not true. That`s not true. But if you could get one juror to believe it, there you go, there`s your hung jury.
HOROWITZ: Well, I don`t think jurors would believe that. I think there`s -- the other murder case here is that Baez is murdering his client by these absurd defenses that no juror will accept. This is a case of accidental death and maybe mental disturbance or post-partum depression.
GRACE: Listen, forget...
HOROWITZ: That`s what they should put forth.
GRACE: ... saying accidental death. Tot mom`s never going to tell anybody she was responsible in any way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is your daughter in a better place?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, she`s not.
CINDY ANTHONY: There`s no evidence that Casey has ever done any harm to her child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You worried about her?
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m absolutely petrified. If she was with her family right now, she`d be in the best place. She`s not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GEORGE ANTHONY: I don`t like the smell in the car.
CINDY ANTHONY: It smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car!
George pulled it into the garage.
GEORGE ANTHONY: I was within three feet of my daughter`s car. The worst odor that you could possibly smell.
CINDY ANTHONY: And he opened up all the windows, the hood, and the trunk.
This little girl is our entire life.
I sprayed the entire car with Febreze, and then I put dryer sheets throughout the car.
Casey`s lied to me in the past.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She collapsed into the chair and (INAUDIBLE) appear to be hyperventilating.
CINDY ANTHONY: And when she`s lied, she`s told me the truth. We`ve always gotten to the bottom of the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You, in fact, said in your deposition that you did not put dryer sheets, at least not in the back seat of the car.
CINDY ANTHONY: That was very traumatic for me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you explain why you`re testifying today that you did put those items in the car?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Maybe my daughter ran over something.
CINDY ANTHONY: There was a bag of pizza for what, 12 days, in the back of the car, filled with maggots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I`m being joined right now by Dr. Srini Pillay, Harvard psychiatrist, author of "Life Unlocked." Doctor, thank you for being with us. Doctor, Cindy Anthony has apparently changed her story about her clean-up of tot mom`s car. It smelled like a dead body. Even people that have never smelled a dead boy say, That smells like a dead body. It`s unmistakable. But I`m not so convinced that with everything going on, she didn`t leave part of it out by -- I don`t know. Is it common during times of great stress that you forget?
DR. SRINI PILLAY, PSYCHIATRIST: Yes, it is. You know, stress can be a really important factor in terms of remembering, partly because, psychologically, what happens is when emotions run high, thinking can actually be disrupted. So from a theoretical standpoint, it certainly is possible that stress caused her to forget.
GRACE: But she is very actually detailed in her deposition. It says there`s another item in the back seat. She says it looks like a dryer sheet. Did you put it there? I don`t remember doing that. I don`t recall that dryer sheet being there, truthfully. OK. I don`t know why a dryer sheet would have been back there. But you definitely -- I don`t -- take the dryer sheet out and throw it -- I don`t remember doing that, and I don`t see a reason why I would have. Have you ever put dryer sheets in the car? No.
Those were her answers. Now we know that she put not only dryer sheets but Febreze in an attempt to hide the smell of a dead body in tot mom`s, her daughter`s, car.
Out to the lines. Nicole in Texas. Hi, Nicole.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, is with all this evidence that keeps coming up -- for instance, what you were just talking about with the dryer sheets and trying to cover up the dead body smell, the evidence just keeps piling up. What is taking so long for this trial to just end? I mean, they keep trying to pin it on her dad, trying to say that, you know - - just something new keeps coming up. Why isn`t this just ending? Why aren`t they...
GRACE: Well, I`ll tell you. I`ll tell you, Nicole in Texas, because it`s a death penalty case. A lot of evidence that would come in in a regular murder trial is not being allowed in because they don`t want a reversal. Death penalty cases go on appeal, sometimes 18, 20 years on appeal. This judge doesn`t want that. He`s being extremely cautious and it`s dragging out. They haven`t even struck a jury yet.
We are taking your calls. To Heather Walsh-Haney, forensic anthropologist joining us from Florida Gulf Coast University. Is there any way that chloroform could have been found in her bones if she had been exposed to it?
HEATHER WALSH-HANEY, FORENSIC ANTHROPOLOGIST: To my knowledge, there would be no way to detect chloroform in her bones, unfortunately.
GRACE: What about her hair?
WALSH-HANEY: That`s a possibility, Nancy, but very little research has been done in analyzing chloroform in skeletal remains. I just don`t know how to answer that for you.
GRACE: The reason why I ask that, Heather Walsh-Haney, is because I know with certain drugs that you can get evidence of those drugs in your hair. For instance, if I smoked pot or did drugs two months ago and my hair grew out, they`d find it along here, in my hair, where the hair had grown out.
WALSH-HANEY: Sure.
GRACE: It goes -- it looks a calendar almost. Is that not correct?
WALSH-HANEY: That is correct. Absolutely.
GRACE: Well, let me ask you this...
WALSH-HANEY: (INAUDIBLE) chloroform, if your analogy holds true, it would have to be high doses for a period of time, and from...
GRACE: Yes, that`s not going to happen.
WALSH-HANEY: ... what (INAUDIBLE) the narrative provided, that`s not the case.
GRACE: How would you go about, Heather Walsh-Haney, if you have any idea -- how would you go about making homemade chloroform?
WALSH-HANEY: Boy, Nancy, I don`t know.
GRACE: I don`t, either, but apparently, you can look it up on line, Heather, for those of you that are interested, because that`s what was found on a computer tot mom had access to.
Heather, another question. The state`s expert says the body had been out there in that spot 15 houses from the Anthony home for about four months, but the defense says only a week or two. How can they be that different in timing the body?
WALSH-HANEY: Well, it sounds to me like one side is placing a lot of strength on the skeletal evidence, while the other is maybe looking at other lines of evidence, like the insect propagation and plant material and even the data from Oak Ridge about the decompositional fluid chemical breakdowns. In general in Florida, however, if somebody`s left outside, you can have skeletonized remains within a week to 10 days. The outside of this four-month figure suggests to me that we`re looking at lines of data that are entomological or insect, so that that`s helping broaden out that timetable.
GRACE: Heather, what about the foliage underneath her body? Wouldn`t they be able to determine, based on what`s under her body, when the body was laid there?
WALSH-HANEY: Nancy, you`re great. Absolutely. We can do studies to look at the brown and yellow foliage, grass and leaf litter under the remains, take the same types of plants, cover them up with cardboard even, and then over successive days, move that cardboard until we can match the coloration in that vegetation that was under Caylee`s body.
GRACE: Hey, Heather, in case you want to know, chloroform -- bottle of bleach, acetone and party ice -- that`s all you need for chloroform.
Everyone now, to CNN Heroes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DIANE LATIKER, COMMUNITY CRUSADER: Guns, guns and more guns.
These are our young people. These stones represent them. We`re losing a generation to violence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody`s scared to come out, they get shot at.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When they start shooting, you got to grab the kids and run in the house.
LATIKER: People run in the house and close their doors. They don`t even talk about it.
But there`s some people who are not scared to go outside, and I`m one of them.
My name is Diane Latiker. We opened the community center called Kids Off the Block. We`re known as KOB.
There are kids that are in gangs. They`re homeless. Some of them are drug dealers. So they got a lot of issues.
Who signed up for Youth Ready Chicago?
I tell kids this is a peace place. This is a safe place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I really want to be a veterinarian.
LATIKER: We have leadership workshop, (INAUDIBLE) preparation, music. It`s a range of things that goes on in here.
We started out with 10 young people, and the next thing I knew I had 15, then I had 25. At one point, I had 75 young people in three rooms of my house. And that`s how Kids Off the Block started, in my living room.
We open the doors for the new KOB center in July. Last year, we served 301 young people. If they knock on that door, they can come in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was 12 when I got in a gang, robbing people, stealing. Ms. Diane, she done changed my life. I love her for that.
LATIKER: I`m no different from nobody else. I just opened up my door. Why can`t we all come outside and see what`s going on with our neighbors?
There are people here who care, and I`m one of them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GEORGE ANTHONY: I got home at 10 minutes (INAUDIBLE) That`s when my wife was standing outside, pacing back and forth in the driveway. The car`s still inside the garage. And my wife fell part. She says, George, we lost her, we lost her. I said, Lost who? Lost who? She said, Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Tonight, in an exclusive interview from Hartford, Connecticut, is renowned Dr. Henry Lee, distinguished professor of forensic science, University of New Haven, former consultant to the tot mom team. He examined tot mom`s car. The state`s theory is Caylee`s little body in the trunk for a long period of time before she was finally dumped 15 houses from the Anthony home.
Dr. Lee, as we approach trial in the next coming weeks, why are you no longer on the defense team?
LEE: Well, you know, as a forensic scientist, we have to look at the physical evidence, let the evidence speak for itself. When I examine those evidence, they have so many items in those garbage bags, create a lot of odor. You can`t really say that`s a human decomposition odor. Definitely (ph), it`s a decomposition odor. In addition, if a body in the trunk, shouldn`t we find some blood? And other tests did not show any indication the presence of blood or even a trace amount of blood was found. That`s kind of an interesting point. So in one way, I cannot prove she`s not involved. In another way, I cannot prove she is definite involved. So basically, as a scientist, nothing we can contribute to this case.
GRACE: To Dr. Vincent DiMaio. Ow can they age the body? How can they determine how long she had been lying there?
DR. VINCENT DIMAIO, FMR. CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BEXAR CO., TX: You mean in the grave?
GRACE: Yes, where she had been left. Is there a way to determine that, or to determine how long she had been dead?
DIMAIO: Well, Nancy, I think you gave the right answer. By looking at the vegetation, looking at insects and such, because the body will skeletonize very quickly. And you`d be talking about carrying around a bag of bones and reburying it. So you know, I think you`re right there. That`s where she was buried from the beginning.
GRACE: Dr. Vincent DiMaio joining us, former chief medical examiner, Bexar County, joining us out of San Antonio.
Let`s stop and remember Army specialist Brian Wright, 19, Keensburg (ph) Illinois, killed, Iraq, awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Action, loved his God, family, country, wearing uniform since his Cub Scout days, dreamed of college, leaves behind grieving parents Alan (ph) and Shirley (ph), sister Rochelle (ph), brother David (ph), a Marine who served Iraq. Brian Wright, American hero.
Thanks to our guests, but especially to you. See you tomorrow night 8:00 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good night.
END
