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Dr. Drew
Interview with Meredith Baxter; Interview With Michael Lohan
Aired April 11, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go. Michael Lohan. What happened at Lindsay`s apartment this past weekend? Did he break in and hide? I`ve heard the news. You`ve heard the news. I know the guy. I`m going to get the truth. He`s going be here with me.
As well as Meredith Baxter. She might have been deceiving others even herself. How does a middle-aged mom find love with another woman? A lot to talk about, so let`s get started.
All right, now, welcome. As you watch our program today, let us know what you think at cnn.com/drew. I hope you know by now I think interaction is very important so I really do want to know what`s on your mind.
I know you`ll have something to say, for instance, about a guest I`m going to talk to later in the show that is Michael Lohan. You guys are thinking about him today. He`s been all over a bunch of websites.
So I know people are directing their attention towards what`s going on in his life. It actually hurt me to watch what was going on there. So I called the guy up a couple hours ago and asked him if he`d come here and set the record straight. So he`ll be in here later on.
But first, the cast of "Family Ties" reunited last night at the TV Land Awards, as recently as last night. Now Meredith Baxter played the lovable matriarch, everybody`s idea of the perfect mom on that show.
But behind the scenes her life was really anything but perfect. On television, the character of Alice Keaton was open, accepting and happily married. Meredith Baxter`s performance was flawless and convincing.
The role masked a personal life of turmoil, discontent and confusion. Alcohol abuse, allegations of domestic violence and three failed marriages, on top of these demons, Meredith was haunted by an even deeper secret.
One that she, herself, wouldn`t awaken for decades. Meredith shares her honest account of her life in the book "Untied." Now, listen, as recently as last night at the awards show honoring "Family Ties," we`re still perpetuating an image that is at odds with who Meredith really is. TV needs to put a certain gloss on things, doesn`t it?
Here`s her book. I suggest you read it. I read it. It`s a good read. It`s educational as well, by the way. People can learn a lot about people, not just Meredith. But I`m so tired of television putting a lovely gloss over things that really belies the human experience.
MEREDITH BAXTER, FORMER "FAMILY TIES" STAR: I don`t think it`s just television. I think we all want to say, see how good we are, see how happy I am, see how successful I am? See what good of a job I have?
PINSKY: Isn`t that part of what was troubling you, you needed to be the perfect person, have the perfect family. Your mom, I guess, demanded you to be a certain kind of person.
BAXTER: Well, sort of not there.
PINSKY: Yes.
BAXTER: Could you please not be here is what I grew up with. Just because she was an actress and that`s the best she came up with, which was to have my brothers and I sort of -- to not call her by mom or mommy, but to call her by her first name, stage name, Whitney Blake, because our very existence seemed to make her look older and less available, less attractive, less youthful. As the actor she wanted to be.
PINSKY: So the fact she had kids reminded her -- this is kind of sad, Meredith -- that she was aging?
BAXTER: I don`t know that it was reminding her. It presented a different picture to the outside world, to the hiring world, to the movie business that she wanted so much to be a part of.
PINSKY: I see. I like in the book you go way out of your way not to create more victims by blaming parents and blaming people in your life. She was doing the best she could.
BAXTER: Well, you know, I will say, I have to say. I was a total victim in my mind for many, many years, well into my sobriety when I got sober at, like, 42.
Because it was my thinking that was all screwed up. I was, you know, that she made those choices because she didn`t love me. That she didn`t want to be my mother. That`s what I had arrived at.
PINSKY: All right. You were married three times. Looking for love in probably the wrong places, right?
BAXTER: Yes, but -- the second time was to actor David Bernie, and that was the longest one and that was the most difficult.
PINSKY: Can you tell me about that?
BAXTER: You know, it`s hard sort of to just dive into it. The difficulty was that I -- my read on it was I think I represented a threat in some way. It seemed my interpretation was that any success that I had was threatening to him. We were both actors.
PINSKY: Were you both using? Using alcohol at the time, or no?
BAXTER: No. Well, I sort of came to that eventually and I don`t know whether he is or not. That`s none of my business.
PINSKY: It wasn`t like -- so many times domestic violence involves drugs and alcohol. That`s why I`m asking that. That`s something for people out there in the world, they need to look carefully at that if they`re falling victims of any kind of domestic aggression or battery, take a look at drugs or alcohol, in my experience, first.
BAXTER: I can see in my -- it didn`t -- he did not have to be drinking --
PINSKY: OK.
BAXTER: - to be extremely verbally abusive or physically abusive.
PINSKY: OK. Well, Meredith`s ex-husband, David Bernie, had a lot to say. I guess it was in "People" magazine about their marriage. He told them in part, quote, here it is, "Meredith told tales of our life together that bore little resemblance to the truth, appalling abuse of the truth. This current recycled version of our family story is no more credible than it was during the divorce."
That`s kind of - I don`t want to -- I`m not in a position to comment whether what he`s saying is accurate or not. But I will tell you in domestic violence situations that`s a very typical thing we see is denial and distortions of what happened.
BAXTER: I would say a smarter guy would have said, I am so sorry to hear how this is. You know, I`m probably -- I made mistakes. You know, do what I can to rectify that --
PINSKY: Yes. And then we touch a little bit on your alcohol problem. How bad did that get?
BAXTER: Well, it was bad enough that I was eventually drinking while I was working. You know, I thought -- I never perceived it as a problem. I thought I cut a very rakish figure. I thought it was really worldly and cool while I`m staggering on to the set trying to the work.
PINSKY: What year was that?
BAXTER: That was -- I got sober in 1990.
PINSKY: So this was the `80s and let`s face it. There were a lot of drugs and alcohol in the `80s. I mean, this was before people really started talking publicly about this as a disease or how people recover.
BAXTER: Right.
PINSKY: So you thought you -- you probably were supported by the environment. Doing what everybody else did.
BAXTER: Well, I wasn`t into drugs at that time. I kind of put that away, but the alcohol worked really, really well for me. I drove drunk all the time. I drove drunk with my young twins. My -- I remember my mother putting me into the car from their house on Broad Beach out on Pacific Coast highway.
The twins were asleep in the car and I`m trying to keep that white line in my vision. I can watch that. I couldn`t see the rest of the road. I could see that. Why anyone let me drive like that, I don`t know.
PINSKY: We actually have a Facebook question about this topic. This is Shannon G. She asked, what did it take for you to get help and get sober? I guess another way of asking, what was the bottom?
BAXTER: Well, you know, I don`t think I hit a bottom until I was actually sober, but I hit a business bottom in a way because --
PINSKY: Work bottom.
BAXTER: Yes, my personal life was in shambles. My marriage, I was in the middle of an acrimonious divorce and child custody, it was ugly. I didn`t have any friends.
The only thing I thought I had was my work. When my producer came to me and said we`ve just finished a project with you and we can`t cut it together because your eyes aren`t focused and we can`t understand you --
PINSKY: Wow.
BAXTER: -- I was shocked. I thought, the only thing that I know I can do is now threatened. I better do something to get them off my back. So I stopped drinking and I did start going to a 12-step program, but I never really thought I was an alcoholic.
And also you`ve heard this before. If you`ve had the life I`ve had. I`ve had -- you`d be drinking, too. You know, so I was blaming everybody else. I didn`t take any responsibility.
PINSKY: Which is the fantasy of every alcoholic, if I could just explain why I drank and take care of that then I can drink normally.
BAXTER: You don`t understand me. You know, it was a sad perception. It wasn`t until I was sober for 10 years, and because I learned nothing, had done no self-examination. I had to go back and do repeat the same mistakes.
PINSKY: With a relationship?
BAXTER: I got married again. To someone who was not -- who didn`t hit me and he didn`t verbally abuse me. It must be love. Right? You know? So it wasn`t until that marriage ended, in flames, the only way it could, because it was disastrous.
PINSKY: Yes.
BAXTER: That`s when I hit a bottom. Ten years sober because I was what, what am I doing? What am I doing? I`m wreaking havoc with my life, making hideous and expensive choices.
That`s when I started paying attention to the 12-step program I was in, started going to therapy. That`s when my life turned around.
PINSKY: Meredith, we have to take a quick break here.
Michael Lohan and I have a lot to talk about. Everything is going to be on the table here in just a few minutes. He`s going to come on here and set the record straight in HLN.
Did he break into Lindsay`s apartment? To me, nonsense. We`re going to figure this all out.
When we come back, Meredith Baxter`s very public a difficult announcement that really changed her life forever.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mom, maybe you can help me out. I need practice solving people`s problems before I publish my first column.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is there anything you`d like to talk about? Anything bothering you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m hungry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Besides that, anything else?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m thirsty, too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Meredith Baxter played one of America`s favorite TV moms on "Family Ties" and she shares her stunning real life story. She`s a recovering alcoholic.
She reports that she was a battered wife and since 2009 a lesbian. Here`s how she announced her homosexuality to the world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAXTER: I`ve always lived a very private life, and to come out and disclose stuff is, it`s really (inaudible) to who I am.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what you want to disclose is?
BAXTER: I`m a lesbian. It was later in life recognition of that fact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Let me ask you a little bit more about that. Was it purely later in life or did you -- as you look back do you feel there was some burgeoning homosexuality there all along or --
BAXTER: It`s all conjecture. I can look at stuff and go, I should have read more into that. The truth was, you know, it was an awakening for me probably about seven, eight years ago.
PINSKY: Well, also the truth is you mentioned to me during the break that you`re very disconnected from your feelings. You had been before you got treatment.
BAXTER: No self-examination.
PINSKY: Yes.
BAXTER: Yes, I don`t know why I did anything. It was all impulsive. It was basically just trying to keep my head above water. So that`s how I made my choices. It`s not because I thought, how do I really feel? Where am I drawn? That never happened.
PINSKY: And as you look back, in your book, you report untied, you report that your family was a big part of this obviously. But not trying to lay blame at the feet of people who were doing the best they could.
BAXTER: Right. I don`t know where to do from there. Something I wanted to make a point of is, you know, I was talking earlier about the emotional abuse and everything in my marriage, and I don`t write about that just to throw stones at David.
The truth is, you know, as most of us are, he was doing the best he could given the tools and information he had at the time. Was it shabby? To be sure. However, you know, it was very important for me because I did feel like a victim and claimed ardent victimhood well into my sobriety.
I had to stop that because if I did not take a look at myself and see why I made the choices I did that put me in the situations I was in, I was going to continue to look at myself as a victim and then have to repeat it all again.
PINSKY: Right.
BAXTER: So working to take a look at that and look at the source of all my hurts and pains, find out what that was about and claim responsibility for what was really important.
PINSKY: Well, the only thing we can change is ourselves.
BAXTER: Yes.
PINSKY: Right? OK, we can do something with that.
BAXTER: Try as we may.
PINSKY: Try as we may, we can do something with that at least. But you had also mentioned to me that - well, let me put it this way. Although it`s a bad idea to put blame and it`s great to find forgiveness and peace with some of the stuff.
The reality is that when you been through traumatizing situations it leaves a residual on you biologically and psychologically and you would mention to me that you recently discovered that you do something called disassociation.
BAXTER: Right.
PINSKY: Tell us about that? Because that`s - I`ll tell you what, for people at home disassociation is one of the more common strategies people use to deal with overwhelming emotions. In this day and age of shattered families, overwhelming emotions are common.
BAXTER: OK, I don`t know if this will be clear, but I only came to understand it through being in a group therapy with women I`ve been in for almost 11 years now.
When something will be said in the group and my therapist will say, you`re awfully quiet, Meredith, what`s going on? Where did you go? I went, why? Nothing? I just stopped talking because they didn`t talk about something that included me.
Would you like to ask to be included? I burst into tears. I immediately understand that it`s, you know, my mother, you know, because can you not be here, Meredith? It`s like, my desperation to please be somewhere that that`s what I had to -- I had to shut down.
PINSKY: It`s shutting down.
BAXTER: Even if it was about something minor that wasn`t really about my situation.
PINSKY: Right. It`s numbing. It`s shutting down. People may experience it, sort of daydreaming, but really when you distance from feelings, that`s a primitive strategy to manage feelings that are intense and overwhelming and you got to get connected with that.
My feeling is the best way to connect is by connecting with other people and connecting with yourself. I want to get back to a little bit about connecting with yourself, which is connecting with your sexual identity again.
That`s sort of the topic of this part of our time together. I have a Facebook question. This is from Neil M. He asks, what is, he wrote to us on Facebook, what was the hardest part of the coming out process for you?
BAXTER: Probably my feelings that this was nobody`s business.
PINSKY: Which it wasn`t.
BAXTER: It wasn`t.
PINSKY: It still isn`t, by the way. Are you okay talking about this?
BAXTER: It is now because I`ve made a point of talking about it and I`ve actually found people have been very grateful that I`ve said something about it, that it`s become part of the conversation and that I am comfortable and they got to see me with my partner, Nancy, and we`re very happy.
PINSKY: Did people react negatively? Again, television had presented you in this glossy way. Were they upset that you sort of shattered that for them or did they feel shattered by it for that matter? Maybe they felt good about it.
BAXTER: Well, I`ll tell you. No one that I personally came in touch with, no one that I knew had anything negative to say. I tell you it was all positive, loving and supportive.
It`s in the ugly isolated secretive comments that people do from the privacy of their computers, where they write the most vitriolic comments that you can kind of imagine. And I sort of think of this like a clan, just like wearing a sheet.
PINSKY: Well, it`s incredible what the internet space has become in terms of people`s ability to bully and abuse.
BAXTER: It`s the disenfranchised that have no other voice. I have to assume that this is the way they can communicate.
PINSKY: Now you`ve had five kids with two husbands?
BAXTER: Still do, yes.
PINSKY: You have them. What was their reaction to your review?
BAXTER: You know, they were just the way I would want any parent to be when their child was coming out to them, to say, we just want you to be happy, mom. Was I lucky or what? I must have done something right.
PINSKY: Yes. You were a good parent. I mean, you had a good relationship with them. I would bet, this is the one thing I always say also to people with mental health issues and alcoholism, is your kids are very resilient. Your recovery means everything to them. Were you into your recovery by that point? I seems like you were --
BAXTER: Yes, yes, I got sober in 1990.
PINSKY: Tell me about your recovery. How is that for you? Do you sponsor other people? Can we talk about that?
BAXTER: Sure. Yes. I do sponsor people. I go to a lot of 12-step meetings. I try to stay in self-examination all the time. I have to ask myself, OK, what am I really thinking? Am I making up a story here?
This is all about mental health. This is not just sobriety because I had a habit of telling myself stories about someone like the last marriage I went into because he didn`t hit me and he didn`t say bad things about me.
I thought, well, gee, this must be love, this is what is looks like, isn`t it? And so that`s the kind of stuff I had to examine.
PINSKY: Do you feel love now?
BAXTER: I do and I had to torture her to make sure that I wasn`t making up some fantasy about what was going on.
PINSKY: Did you have to test her and leave her?
BAXTER: All the time.
PINSKY: All that good stuff?
BAXTER: It was a cruelty. It was probably an abuse in its own way just because I didn`t know. I was -- all I knew is I was not going to make the same mistake again. Not that one. I`ll make other mistakes. Not that one.
PINSKY: You`re very lucky. Some people never even get to find this at any time in their lives.
BAXTER: I know.
PINSKY: Thanks for joining me. I appreciate it. Meredith, great to meet you.
BAXTER: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
PINSKY: Now when we come back, we`re going to continue this conversation about women and sexuality. There`s something called late in life lesbians. Our guests were once married to men and they`re happily partnered with women.
BAXTER: Now I have to leave?
PINSKY: Well, I can introduce you to them, but we`re going to examine that and figure out how that happens and what that all is right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: OK. Now, before the break, we were talking to Meredith Baxter about her late in life revelation that she was in fact, gay, she`s lesbian.
Joining me now are two women who had the same experience. We`ll be talking with our guests, Ellie and Nicole about this topic. But here, first, is some background.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Their story reflects common struggles and life- changing moments of clarity. For Ellie, the struggle was a 19-year marriage. Her moment came when she met a woman just like her, married with children, and felt an undeniable connection.
Nicole`s marriage lasted just three years. Her first glimmerings came while on honeymoon with her husband. They met another couple. She felt drawn to the woman. The full realization during a stolen kiss behind closed doors.
Both husbands just feet away. Each woman had a critical realization, an awakening of her new burgeoning sexuality -- the blinding discovery only the first step down a long road to reconciling their lives and their families to a new reality.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Boy, very intense. Ellie, that must have been a tough transition.
ELLIE RIGBY, "LATE-IN-LIFE" LESBIAN: It was unbelievable. It wasn`t something I`d ever wish on anyone.
PINSKY: You would never choose to do?
RIGBY: I don`t really know why anybody would choose that, the amount of anguish, how it upsets other people`s lives.
PINSKY: Kids?
RIGBY: Kids` lives. You know, it isn`t the favorite part of society. It`s a tough road.
PINSKY: And yet it was something in you that you just can`t change.
RIGBY: I had no choice.
PINSKY: Like trying to change an attraction to a taste in a food or something, Nicole, or something you really like?
NICOLE CARRASCO, "LATE-IN-LIFE" LESBIAN: You can`t control it. You can push it aside for so long and then it will eventually come out.
PINSKY: And you, I guess, stole a kiss?
CARRASCO: Yes.
PINSKY: Tell me about what that was like and what that experience evoked.
CARRASCO: For me, everything clicked. It was passion I had never felt. I got -- I understood what everybody else was talking about when they were in love, the passion, the attraction. I never had that until that moment. That`s when my life changed.
PINSKY: Was that your story, you were on the honeymoon when that happened?
CARRASCO: No, it was about six months later.
PINSKY: I mean, how -- what went through your mind? Like my goodness, what am I going to do?
CARRASCO: It was, what am I going to do, how do I give up everything that I had as a couple that wasn`t accepted in the world.
PINSKY: How long had you been together as a couple?
CARRASCO: My ex-husband and I were together 10 years before I left -- eight years I think after the kiss.
PINSKY: I mean, both of you, that must have been -- you said anguish. That`s the word that comes to mind for me.
CARRASCO: Absolutely. It was really hard.
PINSKY: How did you get through it? What did you do?
CARRASCO: I had to deal with a lot of guilt.
PINSKY: You know, it`s strange thing -- the immediate sort of question I have, how did you first tell him? How did you go about that even?
CARRASCO: It was one night in the middle of the night. I just woke him up and just told him. I`m realizing that I have feelings for women and I`m attracted to women.
PINSKY: You get upset even talking about it now.
CARRASCO: Yes, it was hard. I knew it would break his heart and it was breaking my heart. I knew I was going to hurt a lot of people that I had no intention of hurting.
PINSKY: It reminds me of that scene from "Eat, Pray, Love," when she`s in the middle of the night, I have to get out of here. It`s same kind of thing?
CARRASCO: It was like that I`d know that I have to do, but it was terrifying.
PINSKY: My goodness, well, we`re going to come back, talk more about this. We`re going to get into this topic because it fascinates me.
Women are so fluid. Men are a little more black and white. So this is a big, big topic. We`re going to find out what was more difficult for Nicole, what was most difficult for Ellie, coming out to the families or coming out to themselves?
Now, if you have something to say, I want to hear it. We`re listening to you at cnn.com/drew.
And then coming up, my exclusive with Michael Lohan. We`re going to get his situation all ironed out. That`s coming up here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEREDITH BAXTER, ACTRESS: I`ve actually found that people have been very grateful that I`ve said something about it, that it`s become part of the conversation. And that I am comfortable, and they get to see me with my partner, Nancy, and we`re very happy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That was Meredith Baxter talking to me just a few minutes ago about coming out at age 62. She has helped put a well-known face to a growing demographic in the gay community. They are so-called late-in-life lesbians. Nicole and Ellie are part of that emerging group. Nicole came out in her mid 30s, and Ellie came out in her late 40s. Now, you both prior to that and considered yourselves heterosexual. Tell me about that part of your life and then the transition to where you are now.
RIGBY: Well, I never even really gave it a thought. It wasn`t like I decided one day to be a heterosexual. I just always was. So, I --
PINSKY: You were attracted to men. You were sexually fulfilled by men?
RIGBY: Uh-huh.
PINSKY: Keep going.
RIGBY: I just never questioned it. So, it never came to mind. But in retrospect, I can look back and I can say, oh, was that typical, was that typical? But, at the time, everything felt very normal. I didn`t think of myself as not straight. I didn`t think of myself as bisexual. To me, it was just a certainty.
PINSKY: That you were just straight?
RIGBY: Uh-huh.
PINSKY: And you had a satisfying relationship with your husband?
RIGBY: Uh-huh.
PINSKY: And you raised how many children together?
RIGBY: Two.
PINSKY: And then, how late in the marriage was it before you realized that you were not straight?
RIGBY: Well, I was married 19 years, and when I met this friend, we - -
PINSKY: I`ve been married 20 years. I`m getting scared something is going to happen in my marriage.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: You know, 20 years, something could happen.
RIGBY: I don`t know what to tell you about that.
PINSKY: I`m not going to let you meet my wife, just so you know.
(LAUGHTER)
RIGBY: Well, I was introduced to a friend by a mutual friend, and we had a ton in common. We`re both therapists. We both have kids. We`re girls involved in the girl scouts, liked to do crafts. So, we became really fast friends and got along really well for months. Then, there was this one coffee that we went out to, and it felt totally different. It was like my life took a left turn without a signal. I was giddy. I was really excited to be there.
I didn`t know what to talk about. I was talking about everything. It was really strange. And the next night when we were talking on the phone, she said, you know, that sort of felt like a date. And I said, yes, it did. And at that moment, it felt like the train had left the station.
PINSKY: Was it a depth of intimacy that you think, perhaps, you can`t, or you personally couldn`t feel with a male?
RIGBY: For me, the emotional connection, yes.
PINSKY: The intimacy?
RIGBY: Yes.
PINSKY: Nicole, how about you? You were straight -- was married?
CARRASCO: I was married for about three years. We had dated seven years prior to marriage. And on my honeymoon, I met a couple, a man and a woman, and I had a connection with the woman. We kept in touch. They lived in Arizona. We were in California. We just started talking through IM. I went out there to visit. And there was just a pull and a connection, and I couldn`t deny it anymore. And I think I did try, but this was it.
PINSKY: Did you develop a relationship with her?
CARRASCO: I did. We -- I don`t know if you can call it dated, since we were in different states and we`re both married, but we both had had feelings about women and being married and neither one of us wanting to leave our marriages. It was a safety net to explore without having to make a life-changing decision in the moment.
PINSKY: Let me talk, speak on behalf of people who might be thinking the following out there which is you made a commitment for a marriage for better or worse. What if you would just said, oh, boy, there`s this thing, but I`m just going to commit to my marriage? What if you had done that? Would it have been something you never would have been able to escape and the relationship would have eventually fallen apart with your husband?
CARRASCO: I think it would have. For me, I am a gay woman.
PINSKY: So, you knew that at that moment?
CARRASCO: Yes.
PINSKY: OK. So, you knew the game was over?
CARRASCO: Yes. I knew that if I chose that life I was choosing it because I was too afraid to live the person I`m meant to be.
PINSKY: Was that something you now became sort of begin to see as another part of your life? In other words, earlier, similar urges you saw more clearly?
CARRASCO: Yes. I definitely, looking back, I can see that now. It`s frustrating for me that I wasn`t strong enough to see it earlier. That`s a big issue for me.
PINSKY: In other words, you feel guilt for having hurt people?
CARRASCO: Yes, I feel guilt for having -- Michael has been an amazing man. And to me, I wasted ten years of his life because I was too afraid to be the person that I am.
PINSKY: Well, I want to switch gears and bring up another sort of facet on this topic that I don`t think anyone is talking about yet, and this kind of fascinates me. And certainly, when it comes to men, there`s a lot of conversation about it being genetic and biological and what not. We don`t seem to have quite as clear a conversation about women.
Now, that we are all living so much longer and we have a huge population of women in the post-menopausal years, do you think there`s anything about being post-menopausal and no longer having the reproductive biology operating that opens women to these sorts of things?
RIGBY: Well, yes, I think that we`ll probably find if that is the case, at least, for people who come out later in much later in life like I did. Yes. I think so.
PINSKY: Well, I self-reveal (ph). I said I wasn`t going to let you meet my wife. She once said to me, you know, I think that as you get past all that childbearing stuff, women are a little more interesting, little more intimate. It was being putting me on notice that men better pay attention to intimacy, and I want to share that with any other men out there and women that need to put their men on notice that intimacy is a very important part of this conversation, and when that biology changes, and by the way, putting -- just a curious question. Were you on hormone replacements therapy or anything like that at the time?
RIGBY: No.
PINSKY: Because theoretically that might restore some of the -- you`re a little bit different situation because you`re not post-menopausal yet. It sounds like a somewhat different story, right? You were gay since early in life maybe since you were born.
CARRASCO: Right.
PINSKY: The other point I want to make about this conversation is that, you know, we talk about this being sort of black and white in men. It`s little more fluid in women, isn`t it? Tell me about that.
RIGBY: Well, I think it must be more fluid when you see, you know, people like Nicole and I, and certainly, I know a lot of other later-in- life lesbians who were just completely surprised and blindsided by their feelings for a woman.
PINSKY: Is there as much sexual energy caught up in the relationship as when you were younger with a man? You understand what I`m asking?
RIGBY: I would say yes.
PINSKY: Nicole.
CARRASCO: Yes, I would say more.
PINSKY: For you, it`s more.
CARRASCO: For me, it was definitely more because I, again, just like the kiss and the passion, I understood it. I understood -- like, I didn`t get when my friends would talk about, you know, sex with their boyfriends. I didn`t understand it. When I was with a woman, it just all clicked. I understood it.
PINSKY: We have just a few seconds. Any message you want to give to people out there who might be struggling with these issues? -- Elli.
RIGBY: I do. I just want women to know that they`re not alone. They need to reach out to other people who`ve gone through this. There are online support groups. There are therapists who was skilled in this. It`s a very isolating experience.
PINSKY: Reach out.
RIGBY: Reach out.
PINSKY: All right. Thank you, ladies.
When we come back, Michael Lohan is going to join me right here. He`s going to tell me once and for all what was going on at Lindsay`s place, if anything. What`s going on with the two of them? He`s going to set the record straight. You don`t want to miss this, so please stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Now, I`ve been seeing reports all over the place that Lindsay Lohan was hiding in her closet while dad, Michael, tried to break into her Venice Beach apartment over the weekend. Now, look, I know Michael. I worked with him on "Celebrity Rehab." He and I first got to know each other when he saw me sort of commenting about his daughter`s chemical dependency, and he thought what I was saying was right, and I was very concerned about her, so we became friendly then.
Then, worked together intensively on what will be airing in July, a season of "Celebrity Rehab." And I watched him try to defend himself on a video about this nonsense this weekend, and it actually hurt me to see what he was going through. And so, I called him a couple of hours ago and I ask him to come on in here and tell us the truth about what`s going on and let set this record straight once and for all right here.
So, Michael, dude, here you are thank you for coming. So, what is all this nonsense? First of all, you look like you`re in pain talking about this. Something bad is going on right now. So, here`s your chance.
MICHAEL LOHAN, FATHER OF LINDSAY LOHAN: Well, it eats you up inside. You`ve been -- you`re my doctor on "Celebrity Rehab." It`s not like we`re on a forum like this where we can talk openly. You saw what I -- you heard my deepest, darkest secret and what I suffered and how I felt about people that suffered my life.
PINSKY: Yes.
LOHAN: Including the infliction I posed upon them.
PINSKY: So, this weekend, first of all, let`s just breakdown the story. Were you at her house knocking the door down?
LOHAN: Absolutely.
PINSKY: You were?
LOHAN: I went to her house. I knocked on her door. There was no response. So, I looked in the window. The lights were off, and I left.
PINSKY: OK. And then, what`s this business about her hiding in the closet and all?
LOHAN: I went from there down to Venice Beach. I thought she`d be home a little while later, because she`s always home when I go to the house if she tells me to come over. And, all of a sudden, I saw these reports on TMZ and Radar and I started making calls and I said, what is this? And I contacted Lindsay, and she said, daddy, I have no idea what they`re talking about.
It didn`t come from me. It probably came from my neighbor. You know me, Dr. Drew. You come between me and my family and you do these kind of things, what was the first thing I did?
PINSKY: Went down there, I bet.
LOHAN: I went to the neighbor`s house.
PINSKY: Yes.
LOHAN: He wouldn`t come out of the house.
PINSKY: I`m not sure I would have advised you to do that. I`ve seen you make some bad choices, but you went down there --
LOHAN: You`ll see on the show some of the bad choices. And look it, I`m not justifying my actions at times. Look --
PINSKY: You get -- here`s the thing. You get -- when you get into the certain state, you get really aggressive. You do. You talk about that on our show.
LOHAN: Absolutely.
PINSKY: And I think that`s part of what has come between you and Dina. She doesn`t understand what that was. And I think -- have you had a chance to explain that to Lindsay?
LOHAN: Of course. Lindsay knows it. We had a long talk about it today. I mean, the first thing that happened last night after this all came out, she said, daddy, I`m going to set the record straight. I`m going to tell everyone, and she did that. She said, I wasn`t even home, and I wasn`t hiding in the closet.
PINSKY: Did you do anything to the neighbor?
LOHAN: No.
PINSKY: Did you scare him?
LOHAN: I don`t know. He wouldn`t come out of the house.
PINSKY: OK. And then, today, you got back with Lindsay?
LOHAN: Yes. I called her last night. She arranged for us to meet this morning. She was leaving to go out of town, and we spent a number of hours there, and I have to say this, Dr. Drew. How appalled I was to hear my children call on speakerphone, my son, Michael and my daughter, Ali, and Dina yelling in the background that if Lindsay has anything to do with me, the kids cannot see Lindsay, and she then can`t come out here.
PINSKY: So, she`s splitting, using the children to split --
LOHAN: She always has. And Dr. Drew, here`s what don`t get. Look it. I`ve been wrong. I`ve made my mistakes. Dina and I were happy for 19 years.
PINSKY: This is what I don`t think people know, and I was actually surprised to hear this when you and I talked about her. You actually want to reconcile with her.
LOHAN: At times, I did.
PINSKY: Well, I don`t know how you feel right now, but when you and I talking out (ph) and you described her to me as the love of your life.
LOHAN: Yes, she was.
PINSKY: Yes, but you had a -- I mean, a rocky, but satisfying marriage.
LOHAN: Yes. For 19 years, Dina was the apple of my eye, the love of my life. She was a great mom, a great mother. She did things wrong and so did I. But you know what, you get by that. That`s what marriage is about. But after the divorce, after I had that fight with her brother, she just flipped -- someone flipped a switch, and she became another person. I don`t even know who she is.
PINSKY: You did a ton of stuff wrong during the marriage. I mean, you knew --
LOHAN: I went to prison. I, you know --
PINSKY: Do you think it was a cumulative effect? Finally, the switch threw?
LOHAN: No. Here`s what I understand the case is right now is everything would have been fine, and things were great for Dina and I even after -- I shouldn`t say great, but there were very good.
PINSKY: Civil.
LOHAN: Yes. After we got divorced, it took a little time and a little effort, but it worked. But, the relationship that I`ve had in my life since then, whether it was Erin Muller (ph) or Kate Major (ph), or you know, whatever people want to make those relationships and say about them, you know, I`m tired of all the nonsense. Dina could not see me moving on in my life and me actually having a happy relationship.
And regardless of what people saying about Erin or Kate, we were happy in both relationships. Sure, there were rough roads, but people drive people to say and do things including myself that are wrong.
PINSKY: Uh-huh.
LOHAN: And, at least, we can admit it.
PINSKY: Well, now, so, we`re sort of taking aim at Dina here. At least, you are. I don`t know Dina, but let me just say, I mean, for Dina`s sake, that I don`t know Dina. This is Michael`s point of view on this. She`s certainly welcome to come here and tell me her story or -- I`ve tried to reach out to her before, myself. Please get together with Michael and reconcile. I think that would be a great thing myself because whenever the kids come between parents, so destructive for the kids.
I mean, they just -- I imagine your kids must be expressing emotional distress because people also know about Michael. I feel very affectionately tied to Michael. One of the things, I think, people are going to be surprised about in this season of "Celebrity Rehab" is that people really, really love you, I think, and it`s going to surprise them, I think.
LOHAN: Hate me or hate to love me.
PINSKY: But I think being Lindsay that you have to understand those conflicted feelings must be very difficult to contend with as a young woman and then throw your mom into the mix with you guys, all the family into pieces. That`s got to cause tons of distress.
LOHAN: It does.
PINSKY: Early recovery to add that too. Can I ask you how her recovery is going?
LOHAN: Fantastic. I mean --
PINSKY: Yes.
LOHAN: But co-dependency issue and the anger was a problem.
PINSKY: Yours.
LOHAN: Yes.
PINSKY: But is her recovery OK?
LOHAN: Lindsay is fantastic.
PINSKY: So, in spite of all this stuff that`s going on, she`s managing, focusing on her sobriety and keep it intact.
LOHAN: And this is the sad part. This is what killed me, watching her in bed, watching her cry saying, I can`t take this, I can`t be put in the middle. This is destroying -- I don`t really want to tell you the other things this poor kid said. And you know, while she has so much pain in her voice and she`s been torn apart, that`s the very thing that was stuffed with all the wrong things in the beginning. That`s got to be closed. It`s got to be mended. And my other kids are suffering from it. They`re going to suffer in the long run, too.
PINSKY: I`m not sure I understand what you mean. What got stuffed?
LOHAN: When Dina and I got divorced, she had a broken heart. I have the broken heart syndrome kind of thing.
PINSKY: Dina did?
LOHAN: Yes. And I believe that when Lindsay`s heart broke -- all my kids -- some may handle it better than others, but when Dina and I got divorced, Lindsay filled that crack in her heart with all the wrong things.
PINSKY: Of course. Every kid feels that kind of stuff, right?
LOHAN: Yes, but some handle it -- you taught me about trauma. You taught me about how all you have to do is flip that switch and that`s when someone`s addictions come to be.
PINSKY: Yes.
LOHAN: You can --
PINSKY: Be predisposed.
LOHAN: You can be predisposed, be an addict, but some people go on in life without becoming an addict.
PINSKY: Yes. You have to think that genetic potential doesn`t mean disease necessarily.
LOHAN: Exactly.
PINSKY: But when you have trauma, it comes on. But I tell you, coming from a fractured family does it, coming from chaos in the family does it. And there was a lot of stuff in your family before you even separated, right?
LOHAN: Yes, but we dealt with it the right mind. I mean, Dina and I got separated once, but, I mean, she`s gone on this mission to even contact a woman that says she has my child when there`s no paternity test. And when I sent Dina copies of the test, that I took the test, she doesn`t even to want acknowledge it.
PINSKY: It`s safe to say that Dina is angry.
LOHAN: Yes.
PINSKY: Safe to say that. Now, I want to go back to Lindsay very quickly. Lindsay`s sobriety is intact. My fear when, I know, you know, I was to step to read (ph) about her that concerns me for her. There`s reports of her being out sort of still living in the lifestyle. That`s something my patients do all the time, young patients. Hey, I`m young, what`s the big deal? I`m sober, it`s fine. Please give her the message that you got to change the lifestyle, too, because, eventually, it will suck you back into your disease.
LOHAN: And the people. And I have to say this, when I went over to Lindsay`s house this morning, one of her friends over at the house who I helped get into recovery and repair the relationship with her parents. And I was so delighted to see this girl back in her life.
PINSKY: This is a solidly recovering positive --
LOHAN: Totally solidly recovered.
PINSKY: And you`re going to understand his heart. You`re a young person. You want to go out and socialize with your peers and stuff, right?
LOHAN: I`m proud of her. I have to say that it`s a hard road, but you know what, she`s not nearly as out one-tenth as much she used to be. Of course, and I know, I`m molded (ph) that we can`t put ourselves in --
PINSKY: Slippery places.
LOHAN: Very good.
PINSKY: Bad news.
LOHAN: And she`s got to learn that, but she`s young and she`ll learn, but she has her career back on track. She has a lot of things going for her, and I think she`ll realize it. This stuff with the parents has got to stop.
PINSKY: Well, I was going to say that, first of all, I hope she delays too much career stuff because focusing on sobriety is first.
LOHAN: Yes.
PINSKY: She needs to change lifestyle stuff for sure, but boy, if she`s saturated with pain from her family of origin and not able to either distance herself from all of you guys, right? I mean, if I was treating her I`d say, get away from everybody. You know, I`m sorry, Michael. That`s part of what I would say. You`re a great role model, and you`ve been in a program and you`re doing good. Maybe, she`ll stay with you. I hope she does, but --
LOHAN: I have to take a step back and Dina has to take a step back to let her have her life, I`m willing.
PINSKY: That`s the one thing I`ve seen with you. You`ve always been very, very willing to do what it takes, but we have to a break. So, we`re going to talk about that. How far you`re willing to go? We`re also going to talk a little bit about Lindsay`s legal troubles. We`re going to ask Michael where those stand after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDSAY LOHAN, ACTRESS: I know that I was ordered to go once a week, and I wasn`t, you know, I wasn`t missing the classes just to hang out or do anything like that. I was working mostly in morocco, the trip I was working with children. It wasn`t a vacation. It wasn`t some sort of a joke. And I respect -- I`ve been taking it seriously.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Michael, I see the pain you`re in just when you see that. It`s got to be tough. I mean, any father. Yes. What is the latest on her legal situation?
LOHAN: She`s going to fight the case. I totally believe -- I think she has a great legal team. I think that -- I think that she`ll prevail. Again, it`s -- if her heart`s in the right place, she`ll win. And I believe that that`s going to happen.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s switch gears back --
LOHAN: Just one thing. I want to be at the court case on the 22nd, but I don`t know if -- like we want to be when I was on the show, but I don`t know if the attention is going to help her --
PINSKY: No, we`ve been generally recommend you stay away from the courtroom. I`ll talk to you more about this. The time is long, but I think that -- I think she would like that. I think she needs to stand up as an adult and do her thing, and you need to not be in there rescuing which is your thing.
OK. So, let`s go back to your family origin, your family system right now, and try to talk about what you`ve been willing to do to reconcile things. I recommended you to reach out to Dina. I recommended you to get your family together. I guess that Betty Ford had told you the same thing.
LOHAN: Inspirations has. Betty Ford has. You have.
PINSKY: OK. What have you been willing to do?
LOHAN: I`m willing to do anything.
PINSKY: You`ve picked up the childcare. Child support.
LOHAN: Child support. I said, as matter of fact, I even took pictures of the FedEx envelope and all the money orders and sent them to Lindsay, and Lindsay was supposed to send them to her mom, and evidently, she did, but Dina said she didn`t get it. She does this constantly. She gets money from me. She gets whatever she needs from me. She doesn`t acknowledge it to the children.
PINSKY: Let`s hope -- we don`t know what Dina`s story is.
LOHAN: I`m just telling you what I heard.
PINSKY: OK. I want to give you the chance to go ahead and give Dina a message about attempting to repair what`s not really working here in this family.
LOHAN: It`s not only to Dina, but it`s to my son, Michael, Ali and Cody. Dina, I`ve been trying for so long to just get on the right page, and there may be some differences that we`ve had in our marriage and even afterwards that you`re still holding on to, and regardless of how I feel about things, it`s not about me, it`s about you. I want to make this about you. I`ll do anything you want. I`m talking anything on national television now, to make this right, whether we do it in a private forum, with Dr Drew, with anybody.
I want to sit down and get on the right page finally. Not for us, Dina. I mean, sure it would help us, but for the sake of our kids. Lindsay finally has a life back again. Ali, Cody, and Michael still have a chance. Please, please don`t do this anymore. Please, I`m finished with all this. Whatever the differences are, I`ll work them out with you. Whatever questions you have, I`ll answer them. Whatever I`ve done wrong, I`ll be accountable for, but please help us, help our children.
PINSKY: And I will say that I know you`re still in treatment. And certainly --
LOHAN: Just came from there.
PINSKY: That team can be deployed also to help you with this. You can join with them. It doesn`t have to be alone. Whatever meeting you want to have, she can have people from her, whether it`s legal or professional team, whatever it might be. We`ll have (ph) to organize --
LOHAN: She has no idea the benefits of that team that you have and what you can do to help.
PINSKY: All right. I have to sign off. I want to thank you for being here with us. Michael, I hope this works out. I`ll stay in touch with you.
And I want to thank you all for watching us here. See you next time.
END
