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Joy Behar Page
Mother Drowns Kids and Herself; Did Doctor Kill Wife?
Aired April 14, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, a woman tells her kids, you`re going to die with me before driving in the river. Her 10- year-old son, the only survivor. Joy wants to know what leads some mothers to snap like this.
Then, could the latest trend in plastic surgery be revenge? Joy finds out why more and more divorcees are getting back at their exes by going under the knife.
Plus, Kobe Bryant is fined with a $100,000 after tossing an anti-gay slur at a referee.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: Every once in a while a story surfaces that is just so horrible, so upsetting to so many people that we try desperately to find an answer. On Tuesday night, a 25-year-old woman, Lashanda Armstrong drove herself and her four children into the Hudson River, killing everyone except her 10-year-old son, LaShaun. The question on everybody`s mind is what would drive a mother to kill her own children.
Here now with the latest is Elaina Athans, reporter from YNN at the site. Hello. How are you? I`m happy to see you there.
ELAINA ATHANS, REPORTER, YNN: Thanks so much Joy.
BEHAR: Let`s talk about this for a minute. Explain how this tragedy happened.
ATHANS: There is no reason why. Something police are still trying to figure. But from what they know, there was a domestic dispute that happened at the home that Lashanda shared with her boyfriend. Police were called there. Once they got there, nobody was home.
Then minutes later, a little boy went to the fire department here in the city of Newburgh they were told. The little boy telling them that his mom had drove right into the river and with them, three of his brothers and sisters.
BEHAR: And how did the -- tell us how the 10-year-old survived.
ATHANS: The 10-year-old was able to get out of the car. He swam to shore. He then walked up the bluff and then a woman driving by saw him, stopped him. She took him to the fire department and he was the one who transferred that message to the fire department.
From what I understand, the woman who had rescued that boy, she said he was completely distraught and he felt guilty. He felt guilty. He just learned how to swim last year and he felt guilty that he couldn`t save his brothers and sisters in time.
BEHAR: Yes. Ok. Thanks very much, Elaina.
Now, I want to bring in my guests: Meave Ryan, she rescued the 10- year-old son who survived the terrible tragedy; Dr. Gail Saltz, clinical psychiatrist.
Meave, let me start here. Tell me what happened. You`re on the road driving.
MEAVE RYAN, RESCUED 10-YEAR-OLD BOY: Yes.
BEHAR: And what happened?
RYAN: I`m driving towards Fish Kill where I was supposed to meet the family and there were four or five cars ahead of me. And I saw a figure, waving their hands. And it was actually very busy -- usually it`s not very busy at that time of night. It was around 7:45.
BEHAR: You mean busy traffic-wise?
RYAN: Busy traffic-wise. Yes.
RYAN: And when it came my turn to come to the stop sign, I saw it was a little boy. He was waving his hands and saying help me. So I rolled down the window and I said, "What`s the matter?" He said, "My mom just drove the car into the water."
So I got frightened and I said, "Come into the car right away." I said, "Where is your mommy`s car?" I made a right-hand turn into where the ramp is and I went down into the water up to my knees to see if I could see the car or try to help because he told me --
BEHAR: Yes, but it was too late?
RYAN: It was too late.
BEHAR: That boy actually swam -- it`s an unbelievable story. He was smart enough to get the windows down.
RYAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Before the electricity went out and the doors were shut and then you won`t be able to open the door. He floated out of the window.
RYAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Across his mother?
RYAN: Yes. Oh, no, his mother was in the back seat, she was in the third -- second row with the children because she was holding all of the children in because she said, "If I`m going to die, I`m going to take you all with me. You`re all going to die with me."
BEHAR: Yes. And there`s some idea that there was some domestic dispute with her -- the father of the two of the children.
RYAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Not this boy`s father.
RYAN: No, he has a different father.
BEHAR: He has a different father. So she was distraught.
RYAN: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, he`s only 10 years old, Gail, you know. I mean this type of an incident is going to be very hard to get over. How much of -- is there posttraumatic stress disorder? How much guilt is involved? I heard that the boy said that felt bad that he didn`t teach his younger siblings to swim.
GAIL SALTZ, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Right.
BEHAR: They were toddler, they`re very small.
SALTZ: That`s a statement of survivor`s guilt right there. And that`s not surprising. Ten years old is old enough to understand what has happened. It`s old enough to understand that death is forever. It`s old enough to understand probably the things that went on leading up to this and all around this and to feel the guilt that he got himself away and that the others perished.
So I think the trauma of losing your mother, of losing your siblings, of not having your father around, and in addition, the survivor`s guilt, I mean this is a child who absolutely needs treatment.
BEHAR: I mean he said, "Why did I live?"
RYAN: Yes.
BEHAR: What did you say to him when he asked you that?
RYAN: I said you`re a special little boy, I said a little angel that was meant to live. But at that point I should have corrected myself. I didn`t say that was meant to live. I didn`t want to focus on the point that --
BEHAR: That the others were not meant to live. Right. That`s always tricky.
RYAN: Because I didn`t want to say that they were gone and I knew that they were gone and passed on because he was so -- at that point, he was still praying and hoping that they would stay alive and saying they are dead at the same time, praying and saying that they are dead at the same time.
BEHAR: LaShanda, the mother`s sister talked to NBC today. Let`s watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DARICE ARMSTRONG, LASHANDA ARMSTRONG`S SISTER: She was talking to me about how she felt like somebody was watching her. She felt like there were pages of her diary missing. The lights in her house were flickering on and off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: She sounds like she felt like somebody was gas lighting her.
SALTZ: Yes.
BEHAR: Is there like paranoia involved here, do you think? A mental disease?
SALTZ: Assuming it was nothing real happening, it sounds paranoid. It sounds like the delusions of somebody who was in the middle of some sort of, you know, concerning mental process, things that you would be concerned about with someone that has an 11-month-old, postpartum depression, which can evolve into postpartum psychosis. It can last -- can start even up to a year after giving birth to a child.
You worry about mental illness that preceded that but wasn`t picked up on and under the stress of having domestic difficulty, got exacerbated, you worry about drugs and alcohol. All of these things. But certainly those statements do sound concerning and as we know from cases in the past, Andrea Yates and so on, women who in the throes of psychotic illness can kill their children because they believe, perhaps, that it`s the right thing for somebody to do.
BEHAR: Well, yes. That`s the theory that she had been trying to relieve her children from suffering and didn`t want them to live in a world without their mother.
RYAN: Yes.
BEHAR: It`s different from the Susan Smith case where she just drove her children into the water.
SALTZ: And saved herself.
BEHAR: And saved herself because she wanted to be with a guy. This is different. This is more like Andrea Yates I think.
SALTZ: Well, if it proves to be so that, you know, there is more evidence of mental illness and the idea of keeping your children with you. You know, if you believe in an afterlife and that you`re going to all be together and this life is unbearable because, you know, whatever psychotic delusion is going on, it may not be with the kind of malice and hostility that we think of infanticide being.
BEHAR: Yes.
RYAN: The sad part was this. When she was trying to climb out the window, she was holding on to him.
BEHAR: She didn`t want to him to go.
RYAN: She didn`t want him to go at all. She kept a grip of him of his hands, of his waist.
BEHAR: He`s going to have to deal with that, the fact that his mother tried to kill him.
SALTZ: Absolutely. Which is --
BEHAR: And at the same time, feeling guilty that he couldn`t save his siblings or his mother but he saved himself.
SALTZ: Yes.
BEHAR: This is a very, very tricky situation for that child.
SALTZ: I would say, you know, on a trauma scale, it pretty much does not get more traumatic than this.
BEHAR: Do you think that there was any revenge involved in her -- you know the Medea syndrome where this is a Greek tragedy story, where a woman kills her children to get revenge on her husband because he had another girlfriend or something. It`s an ancient story.
SALTZ: Well, before hearing the issues about whether there is paranoid delusions going on, you would think of that. And women have killed their children, killed themselves as a method of revenge. However, you know, these other symptoms make that scene either less likely or the possibility that that was part of the psychotic delusion, that I would take revenge in this way. But the fact that for weeks ahead of time, there was this odd behavior and these many apologies going on.
BEHAR: By?
SALTZ: People kept saying that she was saying she was sorry to all manner of people.
BEHAR: Did she say what she was sorry about?
SALTZ: No.
BEHAR: Why do you think she was sorry?
SALTZ: Well, I will tell you that in a postpartum psychosis -- guilt, irrational, psychotic guilt is often a big component. The idea that you have done something terrible, you don`t even know what the terrible thing is.
BEHAR: She was saying I`m sorry to various people or to her children?
SALTZ: To various people.
BEHAR: I`m sorry. I`m sorry.
RYAN: And also when she was on the phone with her mother in the car, she was saying, "I`m sorry, please forgive me for what I`m about to do."
BEHAR: And then didn`t she say, I think, "I made a mistake?"
RYAN: Yes. At the end --
BEHAR: Who did she say that to?
RYAN: To LaShaun and to the kids. LaShaun was going out of the window, she got a second -- a glimpse of everything, I guess, that was going on. When he went up to the driver`s side and tried to put the car into reverse --
BEHAR: Why did she hold on to him to stop him from going?
RYAN: She stopped him from going at first and then she realized that she -- you know, and then she let him go. And then he said, "I`m going to go get help, mommy." And she said, "Go get help."
BEHAR: Oh my God.
RYAN: So the last minute she got realistic --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: What`s going to happen to LaShaun now? The family are going to take care of him.
RYAN: Yes, well, I heard that LaShaun with his aunt and I got his number today to get in contact with him to see him.
BEHAR: Well, you know, you did a great job.
RYAN: Thank you.
BEHAR: Because a lot of people didn`t stop. Maybe they thought there was somebody else with him. But you were a brave girl.
RYAN: Thank you.
SALTZ: Yes.
BEHAR: Thank you. I thank you for them. I`m sure they will, too.
RYAN: Thanks you.
BEHAR: Ok, thanks Gail. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Now for another potential murder case. In 2007 just days after undergoing after a facelift, Michelle MacNeill was found dead in the bathtub of her Utah home. The medical examiner originally ruled she died from natural causes but the family now believes her husband the Dr. Martin MacNeill killed her. And the police have re-opened the case.
With me now are Alexis Somers, one of Michelle`s and Martin`s daughters; and Linda Cluff, Michelle`s sister. Welcome ladies to the show. I know that you Alexis had -- you have seven others siblings right?
ALEXIS SOMERS, BELIEVES FATHER KILLED HER MOTHER: I do.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, your father is currently in prison, He`s serving a four-year term for identity theft.
SOMERS: Yes.
BEHAR: But when you were growing up with him, he was a well-respected doctor and a lawyer.
SOMERS: Yes.
BEHAR: When you did you suspect that something was wrong?
SOMERS: A couple of months before my mother`s death I started you know feeling a little bit differently about my father. And my mom was concerned things were a little wrong but I didn`t suspect him of murder until actually the day of my mother`s death.
BEHAR: Right. But so, now she was your sister, Michelle is your sister?
LINDA CLUFF, BELIEVES BROTHER-IN-LAW KILLED HER SISTER: Yes.
BEHAR: What was your relationship like with this doctor? Her father? What did you think of him at that point?
CLUFF: I -- we didn`t have a real good relationship with Martin.
BEHAR: No, ever?
CLUFF: No. I basically tolerated him because of my sister. But when I first met him, I -- I didn`t have a good feeling. I thought he was arrogant, just that he was intimidating. That he -- when he went in some place, I felt like he like took over the place.
BEHAR: I see.
CLUFF: And like he was putting on a play almost like of acting.
BEHAR: Really.
CLUFF: Yes.
BEHAR: That`s interesting.
Now -- now, you say that your dad insisted or suggested, I`m not sure, that your mother get a facelift.
How did that all come about? I mean, why would -- why would someone tell someone to get a facelift?
SOMERS: It was out of the blue.
BEHAR: Yes.
SOMERS: This was actually the day after my mom confronted my dad thinking that he might be having an affair.
BEHAR: Well, what did she -- why did she suspect that?
SOMERS: She had -- you know my dad had started tanning, working out, just acting out of the ordinary. He was gone for long periods of time. He was taking phone calls in different rooms.
So I went on his phone and downloaded his phone record and we found a number that he had been calling late at night. And I called the woman -- I called the number and a woman answered. And then I paid for an online search of this lady`s name and it came back Gypsy Jillian Willis. And my mother --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: You told your mother?
SOMERS: I told my mother. My mother was right by my side. And I told her --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: This is before the facelift?
SOMERS: Before the facelift. That night, after I looked up that number, my mother confronted my father and said, hey, I found this number. Explain yourself.
And he came up with just different excuses but later on that night, that`s when he suggested a facelift. And the next day he had her in seeing a plastic surgeon for a consultation, totally out of the blue.
BEHAR: Why would your mother say yes at that point do you think?
SOMERS: You know, I think she saw him, you know, working out and getting all in shape --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: She got insecure.
SOMERS: Yes. And you know, he`s suggesting oh, get a facelift and you know --
BEHAR: Get a facelift and maybe I won`t cheat on you?
SOMERS: You know, I don`t know. Maybe she was just feeling a little -- a little down that way. But she -- she didn`t want -- want to have the facelift. She was pressured into it.
BEHAR: And what was the family -- well, the whole family, what did you think -- the other kids and you maybe? My goodness, my sister is getting a facelift now. The guy is probably having an affair. What did the families say? Did anyone say to your mother, listen, don`t do it?
SOMERS: No one -- no one really knew about her concerns about an affair except for me. She confided in me, I was my mom`s best friend.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Oh so you --
SOMERS: So I was really the only one that knew. Her other siblings didn`t even know that she was getting a facelift.
BEHAR: A big burden on you.
SOMERS: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, after the facelift, your father was administering painkillers. In excess, it looks like to me. I mean, I was reading about it. And some doctor, another doctor, prescribed oxycodone, Valium, Ambien which is a sleeping pill and loretab. Those three, loretab, oxycodone and Valium --
(CROSS TALK)
SOMERS: Yes.
BEHAR: -- are painkillers.
SOMERS: Yes.
BEHAR: Why would she need, after a facelift, three different kinds of painkillers and a sleeping medication?
SOMERS: My father actually gave the list to the plastic surgeon the medications he wanted to be prescribed.
And -- and she didn`t need that. She was very sensitive to medication. She took very little. I was there -- I was back from medical school. I stayed there with her and administered her medicines. And you know, she -- she took very little. She wasn`t taking all of those medicines.
BEHAR: She wasn`t?
SOMERS: No, she wasn`t.
BEHAR: Ok, now Martin claims -- your father he found Michelle unconscious and underwater in a bathtub, right?
SOMERS: Yes.
BEHAR: And he suggested that she slipped and fell while drawing a bath.
SOMERS: Yes.
BEHAR: Do you buy that?
SOMERS: I don`t. I don`t. It was actually my little sister Ada, who was 6 years old at the time that found my mother. She found her in a completely different position that my father describes he found her in. And you know, after he found her, after she found him, she was told to go get help and he had time at home to switch things around. But, no --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: What is your suspicion that he did?
SOMERS: My suspicion is that he drugged my mother that morning and then drowned her.
BEHAR: I see. Couldn`t she have just been groggy from the -- from the drugs from the surgery?
SOMERS: No, no. This was a week after surgery. The night before I had gone out to eat with my mom, she was back to normal. She was taking really very minimal medication. Mostly ibuprofen for pain. She wasn`t doing --
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: I see.
SOMERS: -- and she was back to normal. Normal schedule and normal routine, I mean, it was just a facelift. This wasn`t you know open heart surgery.
BEHAR: Did he give her CPR? Do you know Linda? Did you give her the CPR?
CLUFF: He said -- he claims he did. But if you listen to the 911 tape, I mean how could he be claiming -- doing CPR and when he`s saying on the 911 tape that she`s underwater. You can`t perform CPR when someone is underwater.
BEHAR: So there was a disconnect in the information?
CLUFF: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, the autopsy ruled that Michelle died of natural causes but now it`s been changed to suspicious.
SOMERS: It has.
BEHAR: So when we come back for the next segment, I want you to tell me what switched there, ok, in the case.
More on this in just a minute. Stay right there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Alexis Somers who believes her dad, Martin MacNeill, killed her mom, Michelle; and Alexis` aunt, Linda Cluff.
Before I go on with this I want to just say that our repeated calls to the Utah County attorney`s office were not returned. Martin`s lawyer says they are not commenting at this time but in the past your dad has said he had nothing to do with Michelle`s death.
So why is it now switching to suspicious, the case, all of a sudden? If she died of natural causes, that was the diagnosis at the time. What changed that?
SOMERS: Well, I never believed that. I never believed that my mom died of natural causes. I knew the moment that I found out that she was dead that my father killed her.
BEHAR: The autopsy didn`t show it, though?
SOMERS: The autopsy did not show a lot of information.
BEHAR: Were there toxicity tests because she might have had drugs in her system?
SOMERS: There was but there wasn`t a very extensive one done at the time. But there was a lot of suspicious circumstances that surrounded her death and myself, my sister and my aunt were able to finally, after a year and a half of crusading and trying to get anyone to listen to us, get the Utah County attorney`s office to listen to our claims and all of these things we`ve found out about our father.
BEHAR: I see. But even if the drugs were in her system, as you say he might have drugged her, it still could have been accidental that she hit her head as she slept, right?
SOMERS: I don`t believe it is.
BEHAR: You don`t believe it.
SOMERS: No.
BEHAR: But I don`t know that you have evidence, do you? We`ll see.
SOMERS: Well, we have a lot of more circumstantial evidence but you know, I wasn`t there in that bathroom but I know he murdered her.
BEHAR: Why do you think -- both of you for this -- why do you think that he would try to kill your mother instead of just getting a divorce? Why not get a divorce if he was having an affair?
SOMERS: I think he built a whole persona. It was not just an affair. My father, the last 30 years of his life, were a lie. He had this family and was a member of the church and all of these things as a facade, fronting who he really was which is a person that has destroyed numerous lives and has done criminal things forever, basically.
BEHAR: Is it against the law in the Mormon Church? I know you are Mormons. To get divorced?
SOMERS: Oh, no. It`s not against the law.
BEHAR: I see. Ok.
SOMERS: I think if he would have divorced my mom, his persona of this perfect family man with this doctor, lawyer, guy in the church would have been gone. And, you know, I think it was easier for him, he thought he would get away with it. He thought --
BEHAR: He did have kind of a checkered past, when you delved into it, he forged checks, had multiple affairs, falsified transcripts to get into medical and law school. He was discharged from the military for schizophrenia. He was hearing voices in the military. Is that real? Or did he use that to get out?
SOMERS: The only time my father used the mental illness excuse was to get out of trouble. And not only that, he`s stolen hundreds of thousands of dollars from the (INAUDIBLE) who`ve been getting disability in the last 30 years. They`re not even prosecuting him for that or having him, you know, pay that back.
BEHAR: I see.
SOMERS: He`s gotten away with a lot of things.
BEHAR: Just before we go, where does the investigation stand at the moment? Either one of you.
SOMERS: Utah County attorney`s office has an investigation. They are presenting it to the prosecutor within the next week or so and we`re hoping an indictment will soon follow.
BEHAR: Because he`s getting out of jail.
SOMERS: In July.
BEHAR: He`s getting out in July.
SOMERS: July of 2011.
BEHAR: Are you worried about the fact that you have to see him in July?
SOMERS: I`m terrified. Now only myself and my little sisters.
BEHAR: What are you afraid of?
SOMERS: He said that he`s going to destroy us and take us down and --
BEHAR: In what way?
SOMERS: In any way he can. I mean I`m concerned.
BEHAR: Well, I`d like to you get in touch with us again when he gets out if there`s anything more to report on this. We`ll follow up, ok?
SOMERS: Wonderful.
BEHAR: Thanks very much, ladies.
We`ll change gears with our pop panel right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: This talk that Donald Trump will formally announce his presidential intentions, whether he`s going to do it or not we don`t know, but he`s going to tell us as soon as "Celebrity Apprentice" wraps this season. You know what that means, six more weeks of Gary Busey.
Here to talk about the Donald and all the news of the day, are comedian Elayne Boosler. Maria Menounos, author of "Every Girl`s Guide to Life." And celebrity publicist extraordinaire, Howard Bragman.
Well, now, Howard, is he using -- I mean, this is off-the-wall question -- is he using "Celebrity Apprentice" and the presidential thing together to get publicity for his show?
HOWARD BRAGMAN, PUBLICIST: Shocking, I`m shocked here. You know, when it first started, I thought, OK, he`s having a good time with the press. He cannot be stupid enough to actually run for president, because then women, and financial things come out, all the crap you don`t want to come out.
BEHAR: Even today, in these days?
BRAGMAN: Yes. And now I`m looking, oh, the press will have a field day. They will surgically take him apart, part by part. Now I`m thinking that his ego is such that he`s actually going to do it.
BEHAR: What do you think is bigger? His ego or the deficit? Which is bigger?
BRAGMAN: They are both growing by billions every day.
BEHAR: OK, listen to this, he`s frustrated -- I`m going to (inaudible) up here -- he`s frustrated that Obama has 95 percent approval ratings among African-Americans. And in an interview today on the radio, he said, you`re going to love this, "I have a great relationship with the blacks."
ELAYNE BOOSLER, COMEDIAN: Oh, he`s getting $500,000 for that.
BEHAR: I`ve always had a great relationship with the blacks.
BOOSLER: The blacks.
BEHAR: What is it, 1957?
BOOSLER: The blacks. You know, he does. He`s way up in the grills.
(CROSSTALK)
MARIA MENOUNOS, ACCESS HOLLYWOOD: I can`t believe he said that.
BEHAR: He did say that.
BRAGMAN: You know, Larry David stole that already for "Curb Your Enthusiasm." He can`t do that. OK?
BOOSLER: I think his ego is bigger than the deficit.
(CROSSTALK)
BOOSLER: He has his name up on more things than Indy 184 (ph).
BEHAR: Absolutely.
BOOSLER: He tagged every building in New York City.
BEHAR: If he likes black people so much, why does he want to put Obama out of a job?
(LAUGHTER)
BOOSLER: Let me just say one thing, I hope he runs. I want him to run. I want all the crazies to run. Because look who we have. We have Christine O`Donnell, Michele Bachmann, Sarah Palin, Donald Trump and Santorum. It`s the witch, the snitch, the bitch, the lion and the wardrobe.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: What was the wardrobe?
BOOSLER: Santorum.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Now, OK--
BOOSLER: Empty suit.
BEHAR: Now, you know, Maria, he has done this before.
MENOUNOS: Yes.
BEHAR: He posited -- runs for publicity in `80, `88 (ph). Why are people falling for it? What is different now? They are falling for it.
MENOUNOS: You know, I don`t know. I think because he is making it seem like, you know, he can`t do it because he has a television show on the air and he has to wait until the finale. But all I kept thinking about it when I heard this is, the decision. Like, are you going to take your talents to Miami? I mean, are you going to take your talents to the White House? You know what I mean? Come on. Just say it.
BRAGMAN: But on the show, he`s not announcing if he`s going to run. He`s going to announce that he`s having an announcement. Now, I think that`s good PR.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s good PR.
BEHAR: Just so happens, I don`t know what ruling, FCC or some legal thing, he can`t announce while he has the show on the air.
(CROSSTALK)
BOOSLER: To see what condition his condition was in.
BEHAR: You know, but the Huckabee, like he is tied with Huckabee. You know that? And the Tea Partiers love him. Why do the Tea Partiers love him so much?
BOOSLER: You know, it`s a very weird--
BEHAR: Do you think it`s the birther comments that make him like him?
BOOSLER: You know, it`s such a strawman at this point. It`s such empty issues. And meanwhile, you know, Planned Parenthood is getting killed because, you know, they say it`s the Lens Crafters of abortion. And Lens Crafters came out with a new ad today and it`s a ten-second ad that`s on all the shows. And it says, "we only make eyeglasses!"
MENOUNOS: He can`t be serious. He can`t do this. He has too good of a life. And you know, the White House does not pay and his DNA is all about money. I can`t imagine. Right?
BEHAR: They have to go into his--
BRAGMAN: You know, the Clintons did pretty well after they left the White House, I`m just saying. And a really nice private jet.
(CROSSTALK)
BRAGMAN: It`s nicer than Donald`s private jet.
BEHAR: I think at this point, money is not the issue. Money would not be the issue. It`s about power and prestige.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: To be the president of the United States?
(CROSSTALK)
BRAGMAN: This is one step up.
BOOSLER: More than one step up. And guys who run for office are the guys who didn`t get laid in high school. That`s the end of it.
BEHAR: All of them?
BOOSLER: All of them. Except the good ones.
BEHAR: What about Rick Santorum?
(CROSSTALK)
BRAGMAN: I saw the Kennedy mini-series. He got laid in high school.
(CROSSTALK)
BOOSLER: No, but I mean, the bad ones. The ones who are in it for the wrong reasons.
BEHAR: OK, here is another story.
BOOSLER: It makes bad politicians and good rockers.
BEHAR: Basketball superstar Kobe Bryant, he has been fined $100,000 by calling a referee a homophobic slur. The word he used --
BOOSLER: He said, "homophobic slur?"
BEHAR: No, he said the word which I won`t say it, but it`s the British version of -- British version of cigarette. With a little extra. So now you can figure it out for yourselves because I will not say that word.
Now, he also makes $25 million a year. So what is this, Howard? This is nothing to him.
BRAGMAN: It`s chewing gum money for him. But I will tell you, I`m really glad that David Stern and the NBA came down on him this hard. It`s the only way to get their attention is money, and I think it`s good that we`re having this discussion.
BEHAR: Should they have suspended him?
BRAGMAN: No, I don`t think so. Imagine if Neil Patrick Harris had used the N word. You know, just think of it from another -- the other direction.
BOOSLER: But if Kobe used the N word, it would be fine.
BEHAR: Not really. I think--
BOOSLER: Oh, no, he is allowed. He`s black. A white guy would be fined $100,000.
BEHAR: You think so?
BOOSLER: Oh, yes. But a gay white guy, only $50,000, and a gay Jewish white guy, they actually pay him to curse at people.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Why wouldn`t he be fined if he used the N word?
BOOSLER: Wait, I have a bigger question for all of us. How did they come up with the price? You know, oh, that`s -- you know, Robert Klein had a really funny story when he was a lifeguard in the Catskills. Save the little boy drowning, the parents gave him five bucks. He`s still amazed that they came up with $5. He just saved the kid`s life. I mean, how did they get the 100,000? $5.
BEHAR: Now, wait a minute, Howard, you represented an NBA player who came out of the closet. John Amaechi.
BRAGMAN: John Amaechi, a couple of years ago.
BEHAR: Do you think the NBA is homophobic?
BRAGMAN: I actually think the NBA is very enlightened. At least, I know David Stern is. And I just ran into him a few weeks ago. I happen to represent three NBA owners in my PR practice, and I ran into him at a party, and we talked about this. They are one of the best of the professional sports organizations.
BEHAR: You know what interests me about this, when guys get really angry and really in the heat of the moment, they never use a male slur. It`s always a female or a gay slur. It`s either the c word, the b word.
BRAGMAN: Or the f word.
BEHAR: Or the f word. And I don`t mean the usual f word. They will never call a man the p word. And we all know what that is. Or the CS word.
BOOSLER: Wait.
(CROSSTALK)
BRAGMAN: What is the p?
BEHAR: The p word. Oh, come on, it rhymes with stick.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK. Why is that? Why is the insult always worse when it is about a woman?
BOOSLER: Because they look down on women and there`s nothing worse than being called a biatch. That`s it.
MENOUNOS: I think a bigger problem with all of this is that they were literally trying to put out a PSA that day. They were shooting a PSA that said think before you speak, for the Gay and Lesbian Association, and so I think that`s why it was such a huge problem.
There is -- I`m a huge NBA fan. I`m always courtside at games. I have such a love for the NBA. And I think that that--
BEHAR: Are you a lesbian?
MENOUNOS: No. But I have no problem with that.
(LAUGHTER)
BRAGMAN: She doesn`t like oral sex, I wanted to say, so she might be.
BEHAR: How do you know?
BRAGMAN: Didn`t you watch Howard Stern today, you didn`t listen?
MENOUNOS: I actually -- it`s so funny, I was in (inaudible), and Rosie O`Donnell was interviewing Howard. And I couldn`t hear them, but behind the windows, he was trying to set me up with her. And she`s like, I have a girlfriend. I`m like, I have a boyfriend. Too bad, it could have been nice. But--
(CROSSTALK)
MENOUNOS: But these players are so intense on the court, and this is what goes on. And you know, I guess if he was a Celtic, he wouldn`t have done that.
BEHAR: I see. But you know what?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The media control. What should he do, Kobe?
BRAGMAN: You know, he`s played it wrong. He sort of gave a half- assed apology. And he`s trying to fight the fine.
MENOUNOS: I disagree, though.
BRAGMAN: He gave a half-assed apology.
MENOUNOS: No, no, no, I disagree. You know why?
BRAGMAN: Because you love him.
MENOUNOS: No, no, no, I don`t. I`m not a Laker fan. I`m a Celtic fan. But the art of the apology, you know, he did take -- he said, you know, I am sorry but -- he did do the but.
BOOSLER: He should be forced to do hair for a month.
MENOUNOS: But the problem is, what he`s saying is like, in a sense, you know, this is how we talk on the court. And you have to understand the dynamic on the court.
(CROSSTALK)
BRAGMAN: But you also have to understand what it`s like to be a gay man.
MENOUNOS: They say horrible things. No, no, no, and believe me, I love my gay boys more than anything.
BRAGMAN: No, but let me explain. The gay community is very upset because the African-American community, to a large part, does not give legitimacy to our civil rights struggle. And that`s a huge issue in the gay community, and this is one more thing that is just like, you`re dissing us.
BEHAR: But Kobe did say, you know, I don`t mean any disrespect to the gay community. It just slipped out. It was in the heat of the moment.
MENOUNOS: I don`t think he`s homophobic--
(CROSSTALK)
BRAGMAN: I think it did and I`m glad they--
BOOSLER: I`m sure Michael Richards understands that.
BEHAR: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s a whole other story. Look it up on Google.
(CROSSTALK)
MENOUNOS: That term was always associated with jerk. Like, it was never a homophobic term.
BRAGMAN: But it is.
(CROSSTALK)
MENOUNOS: By the way, I`m not defending him. Again, he`s a Laker and I`m a Celtic fan.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Can we change the story for a second?
BOOSLER: No, I was just going to put a button on it.
BEHAR: OK, put a button.
BOOSLER: Fine. If you`re going to talk about black civil rights, look what we got left with once Geraldine Ferraro died. This will be like if you marched your whole life for civil rights--
BEHAR: Now we have Michele Bachmann and--
BOOSLER: Yeah, it would be like if you got stuck after marching with Dr. King, you`re just stuck with O.J. and Don King, and that`s the end of it.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK. Now, on Oprah Winfrey earlier this week, Jane Curtin was on, and the other people, Chevy Chase and all the rest of them, and they talked about what it was like to work at "Saturday Night Live" back in the day. OK, she said the women writers had a hard time dealing with John Belushi`s male chauvinism. Do you believe it? Let`s watch the clip, it`s very short.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JANE CURTIN: It was primarily a misogynistic environment. Their battle was constant. And I mean, they were working against John, who said women are just fundamentally not funny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: How do you like that, Elayne?
BOOSLER: You know, I don`t think gravity exists, but we`re not floating.
BEHAR: So you`re not surprised?
BOOSLER: It was 1973.
BEHAR: Don`t you think it stills exists?
BOOSLER: It totally exists.
BEHAR: Oh, so?
BOOSLER: But I`m saying in 1973, at least everybody thought, you know, they stepped on women`s work. Now you have to be a little more creative about stepping on women`s work. And I can prove it exists, because you`re the only person who has me on, and I`m good.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Well, OK, all right. I don`t have time to continue.
BOOSLER: Well, I love you. And thank you for having me on.
BEHAR: You`re quite welcome. And good luck to everybody. And I know you`re a Celtics fan. Now I know. She`s not a lesbian. She just likes--
MENOUNOS: It`s playoffs. It`s playoffs.
BEHAR: She just likes sports.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Elayne, on the other hand, big lesbian.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Thanks, guys. And a quick note, you can see Elayne`s new single, "Facebook is a Clock Sucker," I like that, on Youtube now. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: You know, every woman responds differently to divorce. Some eat loads of ice cream, others date younger men. I did that. And some get plastic surgery. Whatever happened to sleeping with your ex`s best friend? Tonight I want to talk about what some people refer to as revenge surgery. Joining me now are Alicia Hunter, who had plastic surgery after her divorce. Lisa Gersten, who did the same after her marriage ended, and Dr. Alan Matarasso, a plastic surgeon who performed Lisa`s surgeries. Welcome you, guys, to the show. Let me start with Lisa, OK? You decide to get some work done after 15 years of marriage, OK? Tell me why you did that.
LISA GERSTEN, HAD PLASTIC SURGERY AFTER DIVORCE: Because I was so depressed ...
BEHAR: So depressed.
GERSTEN: ... gained weight, and I just -- I needed a new me.
BEHAR: Do you feel like, you know, what, you had your breasts done, you had lipo, and your eyes done. Dr. Matarasso did that, right?
GERSTEN: Yes. Yes.
BEHAR: Was showing before and after pictures. So people can see what the effect of his work was. So -- what did you feel like you were kind of sticking it to your ex? Was he cheating on you? Was that what it was?
GERSTEN: Without contemplating too much, I just -- I needed -- I needed to look better.
BEHAR: You needed a boost.
GERSTEN: I needed a boost.
BEHAR: So, you didn`t feel like it was like I get this sucker back?
GERSTEN: Not really. Not really.
BEHAR: OK. Alicia, how long were you married?
ALICIA HUNTER, HAD PLASTIC SURGERY AFTER DIVORCE: We were married about seven years.
BEHAR: Seven years? OK. Now, while you were married you lost 60 pounds.
HUNTER: Correct.
BEHAR: How did you do that? That`s the most important question.
HUNTER: I know. Right. You know what I did?
BEHAR: What?
HUNTER: I stopped dieting, I did portion control and I wrote down what I ate -- and I kept my calories within 1100 to 1500 a day.
BEHAR: Not the dreaded portion control?
HUNTER: Yes. I know. And I hate that.
GERSTEN: No exercise?
BEHAR: You didn`t exercise?
HUNTER: No, I don`t like to.
BEHAR: But now, I understand that your husband didn`t even acknowledge that you lost 60 pounds.
HUNTER: No.
BEHAR: Now, what is up with that? I mean ...
HUNTER: I don`t know.
BEHAR: That`s enough of a reason to get divorced.
HUNTER: Yes. To be honest with you, I just don`t think that he -- my looks mattered to him as much as I wanted them to perhaps. And how much they mattered to me to feel desired and, you know, how much it mattered to me that somebody would notice that I -- this is a huge transformation. And nothing.
BEHAR: Nothing?
HUNTER: No.
BEHAR: Now, you had a breast augmentation?
HUNTER: Correct.
BEHAR: ... to make them bigger or smaller?
HUNTER: Actually, you know what -- I just wanted back what I had before I breastfed two children ...
BEHAR: I see.
HUNTER: So I just wanted some volume back.
BEHAR: Oh, I know the breast feeding is like, well, (inaudible) ...
HUNTER: Yes. Thank you. Very much so.
BEHAR: And botox?
HUNTER: Yes.
BEHAR: So what. That`s nothing. To me, that`s nothing. I have it too.
HUNTER: Like brushing hair (ph).
BEHAR: Yeah, that`s nothing. That`s all you did?
HUNTER: No, actually, I did some filler as well.
BEHAR: You did some filler?
HUNTER: Here and there. And ...
BEHAR: I don`t consider that plastic surgery.
HUNTER: Yes.
BEHAR: That`s dermatology.
HUNTER: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. Now, you also were dating again, right? Didn`t you want to look good to go out into the market? Right? You were now on the market again?
HUNTER: You know what? For me I definitely think that I needed a boost to self-confidence, and -- but I would say for me personally I did it more for myself because I had always been heavy up and down my entire life and this was finally -- this is almost like a reveal for myself.
BEHAR: Yes.
HUNTER: To lose weight and then get my boobs back to where they were supposed to be. And, you know, it was definitely a confident thing for me.
BEHAR: I understand that. Because after my divorce, I never looked better. I was working out, I didn`t eat as much. My hair was glowing. You know. Of course, I lived near Three Mile Island.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Now, doctor, how many of your female patients are post divorce, and do you see as many men as women after they get divorced?
DR. ALAN MATARASSO, PLASTIC SURGEON: Well, it probably mirrors the general population, which is 50 percent. And males probably account for about 20 percent of that. The men come in and they call the daddy do-over ...
BEHAR: The daddy do-over.
MATARASSO: ... and the women call it the ...
BEHAR: What do you mean -- elaborate. What does that mean?
MATARASSO: Well, you know, there`s nothing like not being in relationship to motivate you to look your best. It`s like going back to high school and starting to date all over again. So it`s a big change. You`re out in the single world again, you want to look your best and sometimes people`s motivations have slackened with the years. So both men and women will come in and they want to look as good as they feel and people should realize that it`s OK to feel better about yourself and there are so many options available now from surgery to non-surgical things, to make people feel -- look as good as they feel.
BEHAR: Do you see many women who are motivated by revenge towards their husbands?
MATARASSO: Well, you know, it`s inevitable somebody will come in and say, we have our child`s bar mitzvah, or we have a wedding of a cousin, and I`m going to see that. You know what? And I`m going to make sure I look better than the 18-year old he is with now.
BEHAR: Are you scared of them in the office? I mean, all those scalpels around and everything, do you find them like a little bit unnerving to have them in the office?
MATARASSO: No. You know, they -- you really have to make sure their motivations are correct. I mean it`s one thing to say that they are going to an affair and they are going to see their ex. But you know, you have to make sure that they are doing it for themselves, they are not doing it for their new boyfriend, that their motivations are correct. You know, people have always called plastic surgeons psychiatrists with scalpels.
BEHAR: Right.
MATARASSO: ... and traditionally, life changing events -- divorce, losing a job, a death, have been red flags. I think some of that has changed over the last few years.
BEHAR: OK.
MATARASSO: But you have to make sure that the motivation is OK.
BEHAR: All right, when we come back, I want to hear more about the therapist in you, doctor. We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with my panel. We`re talking plastic surgery after divorce. Before we go to the therapy part of you, Alicia, who paid for your surgery, all the things you did?
HUNTER: You know what? This is going to sound totally crazy, but a really good girlfriend did. Not a girlfriend like that kind of girlfriend, a girl friend. Who I think because she had had some things done and she was feeling really good about herself, it was almost like let me do this for you.
BEHAR: Really?
HUNTER: And she could so she did.
BEHAR: Is she very rich?
HUNTER: Yes. Yes.
BEHAR: She`s very rich. What`s her number?
HUNTER: It was like a charity -- it was like a charity case. And so, to be honest with you, I think that it felt good to have it done that way if I couldn`t actually do the whole thing myself.
BEHAR: But what caused your divorce? Do you want to tell me?
HUNTER: Do you know what? It was a compilation of things. And we`re actually very close now. I just want to throw that in there.
BEHAR: Really? How close?
HUNTER: And he`s a big fan of, you know, now. But yeah, we`re very close and he`s a big part of my life and a wonderful dad.
BEHAR: Yes.
HUNTER: I got to say, though, that with regard to why we broke up, it had to do with, you know, him kind of being an angry guy and I`m a very optimistic person and so we`ve worked on ourselves.
BEHAR: Was he mean to you?
HUNTER: No, I wouldn`t say he was mean. I would say that he omitted compliments.
BEHAR: He omitted compliments? Well, you lost 60 pounds, he couldn`t even say you looked good.
HUNTER: Yes, yes. Yes. Or that helps the grocery bill or something.
BEHAR: Yes, exactly. Something. That`s right. That`s funny. That`s all right.
HUNTER: Oh, yeah.
BEHAR: So, doctor, you took care of who, Alicia, right. Lisa.
MATARASSO: Lisa.
BEHAR: Lisa. Right, Alicia. I get the two mixed up. Not that you look alike. I mean, your surgery is differentiated here. But tell me about...
MATARASSO: Just two beautiful blondes.
BEHAR: Tell me how you`re a therapist sometimes. Explain how that works.
MATARASSO: Well, you know, as I said people will call us psychiatrists with scalpels but you`ve got to really understand their underlying motivation. And it has to be correct, and you also have to be very empathetic. This is a population that`s going through a miserable time in their lives. Looking good may be the best revenge but you have to make sure that their motivation is proper, they`re not in the grieving period ...
BEHAR: Right.
MATARASSO: ... because all the plastic surgery in the world is not going to make that better.
BEHAR: Right. It takes a long time to get over a divorce, especially if you`re married many years. So you probably should get through the emotional part before you start fiddling around with your nose and your boobs.
GERSTEN: Yes.
BEHAR: You know ...
MATARASSO: Absolutely.
BEHAR: Right. But before we go ahead, I just want to ask the two of you ..
MATARASSO: Otherwise...
BEHAR: Go ahead. Doctor?
MATARASSO: Otherwise you`re just set up for disappointment -- otherwise you`re set up for disappointment.
BEHAR: Yes. Exactly. But if you hadn`t gotten a divorce, would you have had the surgery? Both of you?
HUNTER: No.
BEHAR: You wouldn`t have?
HUNTER: No.
GERSTEN: I wouldn`t have been motivated to.
BEHAR: You would have felt that you were acceptable as you were?
GERSTEN: Yes. You get with ease like a relationship I think that long. And especially if you`re going back out into the world.
BEHAR: You get caught in your comfort zone. You, too?
HUNTER: No, I would have definitely tried to find a way to. Yes.
BEHAR: You would have -- because you were in a renovating mood.
HUNTER: (inaudible).
BEHAR: Mood. Yes. You were going to get rid of the fact and change everything. OK, thanks very much, ladies.
HUNTER: Thank you.
BEHAR: And thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
