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Former Defense Attorney Says Casey Anthony Lied

Aired April 22, 2011 - 20:00:00   ET



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re counting down to the start of Casey Anthony`s murder trial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee`s mouth was covered with silver duct tape that had a heart-shaped sticker on it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I woke up night after night with my sports bra lifted over my chest."

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I need to be looked at as a victim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s because she`s young, pretty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I finally stood up to Lee, and I told him if he ever came in my room again, I`d kill him."

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: My mother immediately goes, Who took her? Who took her? And then Casey goes, The nanny did. She was kidnapped, Mom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony lied about a nanny kidnapping her daughter, Caylee.

CASEY ANTHONY: The last person that I saw her with was Zenaida.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone was researching how to make chloroform on Casey Anthony`s home computer around the time Caylee went missing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Big challenges for the defense.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her former defense attorney, Linda Kenney Baden, tells CBS`s "48 Hours" there never was a nanny.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... when she said the nanny kidnapped the baby.

BADEN: Sure.

I think everyone knows that that was a lie.

Her actions have been her own worst enemy.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the search for a 2-year- old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.

Bombshell tonight. In a stunning turn, tot mom`s own lawyer admits tot mom lied, that there never was Zanny the nanny, the mystery woman tot mom swore kidnapped Caylee. So if there`s no Zanny the nanny, then what`s the new defense? And how can the defense explain that whopper lie?

And tonight, torpedo to the defense. The jury will hear about a deadly stain in the shape of a child found in tot mom`s car trunk. The defense allegedly planning to argue tot mom suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder, but then they seem to back out of the defense when they realize if they claim that, then the state mental health workers get to question tot mom behind bars. They don`t want that.

And tonight, the search is on for a tot mom substitute, someone else to take the stand to tell tot mom`s story, since under no condition could tot mom withstand a cross-examination. All this as more photos emerge of tot mom partying while Caylee goes missing. And will tot mom try to link her own father, grandfather George Anthony, to Caylee`s murder by linking George to duct tape found beside 2-year-old Caylee`s body?

The countdown to trial begins now. We are taking your calls. Straight out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session," who has been in court every single day on tot mom. Jean, what can you tell me?

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": You know, it has to come from (ph) Linda Kenney Baden, former defense attorney for Casey Anthony, has publicly said that Zanny the nanny was not real, that it was a lie by Casey Anthony that Zanny had taken the little girl.

Well, Nancy, let`s look at the indictment, four counts of lying to law enforcement officers, count five alleging that Casey Anthony lied to officers saying that Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez took little Caylee Anthony. So Linda Kenney Baden has admitted Casey`s guilt...


CASAREZ: ... to one of the counts.

GRACE: ... hold on, Jean. Let`s talk about Linda Kenney. When I first met here, she was Linda Kenney. Now she`s Linda Kenney Baden. She is married to the renowned forensic expert, pathologist Dr. Michael Baden. She is one of the great -- there you see her -- defense attorneys, all right? Now, she goes on tot mom`s case. She`s an expert in every field needed -- forensics, death penalty, you name it. And then she -- not immediately, but she very quickly comes off the case. Explain to me what happened.

CASAREZ: Well, she left the case. It was never explained why. She is one of the great defense attorneys in this country. She specifically said those words on the air. And we know attorney-client privilege is held by Casey Anthony. So if Linda Kenney Baden said anything like this, which she did, she must have gotten permission to say it.

GRACE: Take a listen to what legal expert Linda Kenney Baden, once on tot mom`s defense team, had to say.



BADEN: She lied.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... when she said the nanny kidnapped the baby.

BADEN: Sure.

I think everyone knows that that was a lie. Her actions have been her own worst enemy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was a habitual liar by all her friends` and family`s accounts. It`s documented that she was taking money from her grandmother that was used to help care for her grandfather.

BADEN: Because of who she is, because of her upbringing, because of how she`s been treated, she lies. But being a liar does not make you a murderer.


GRACE: Now, to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Is she just saying she`s going to be proved to be a liar at trial, but that doesn`t make her a killer? Or is she saying that tot mom lied about Zanny the nanny, there is no Zanny the nanny?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, it seems to me -- and I watched this -- that she is very specifically saying there is no Zanny the nanny. But you know, there are going to be a lot of lies that the defense is going to have to try to explain -- her saying that she worked at Universal, her pointing out the apartment where Zanny allegedly lived. I mean, there`s a lot she`s got to account for. So maybe they`re going to say, We know she lied, but she didn`t kill her daughter.

GRACE: OK, let`s listen to it again, and listen to the wording of tot mom`s own defense attorney, Linda Kenney Baden.



BADEN: She lied.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... when she said the nanny kidnapped the baby.

BADEN: Sure. I think everyone knows that that was a lie. Her actions were her worst enemy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was a habitual liar by all her friends` and family`s accounts. It`s documented she was taking money from her grandmother that was used to help care for her grandfather.

BADEN: Because of who she is, because of her upbringing, because of how she`s been treated, she lies. Being a liar does not make you a murderer.


GRACE: That is from CBS` "48 hours," Linda Kenney Baden, tot mom`s own defense attorney, stating she lied, tot mom lied. She lied for months. There is no Zanny the nanny. Incredible! Of course, Linda Kenney Baden takes herself off of the defense team.

We are taking your calls. First to Diane in Tennessee. Hi, Diane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello. First of all, I want to thank you for all of the work that you do not only for the victims, their families, but also for me and all of us out here that listen. And you are our advocate also, and I want to thank you for that.

I want to get to the -- I always like to go back to the very beginning. And this has bothered me. Was that a cadaver dog that hit on the swimming pool in the back yard? And if so, why was that not -- I mean, could she not have killed Casey (SIC) there? And -- and...

GRACE: Good question. Did you have another one?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, just that, in reference to the cadaver dog, if it was that, or a search and rescue dog. I don`t remember which one it was. But she had already been missing for 31 days, right?

GRACE: Exactly. To Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer. Ellie, when the dog hit around the pool...

JOSTAD: Right.

GRACE: ... what do we know about that?

JOSTAD: Right. Well, we do know -- and the caller is right -- there was a cadaver dog that hit in the Anthony back yard. Also, two dogs hit on the Anthony trunk. Now, this is evidence the defense wants to keep out. They say that those dogs are not reliable. We`re still waiting for a ruling on that. Judge Perry hasn`t ruled on whether the jury is going to hear about those cadaver dogs.

GRACE: Well, hold on just a moment. First of all, Jean Casarez, do we have the facts straight? Didn`t the cadaver dog, as Ellie said, hit in the back yard and around the pool.

CASAREZ: Yes. Ellie`s got it exactly right. Now, there was another dog on another day that did not make that positive hit in the back yard, but two dogs initially did.

GRACE: Unleash the lawyers, Eleanor Odom, senior attorney, National District Attorneys Association, joining us out of D.C., Joey Jackson, defense attorney, New York, Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta.

Eleanor, there`s no way cadaver dogs are going to be kept out of evidence.


GRACE: No way.

ELLIE ODOM: No, Nancy, that`s going to come into evidence. And of course, the defense can put up their evidence disputing this, and then the jury will judge the credibility of the witnesses. But that evidence is coming in.

GRACE: You know, Peter, I think she`s right. I think what the defense is going to have to do, they better get busy on their cross- examination, preparation for the dog handler to bring in people to refute cadaver dogs. They can`t really show other cases where cadaver dogs were wrong.


GRACE: That`s not going to be -- well...

PETER ODOM: Nancy, there`s false positives...

GRACE: ... unless it`s these cadaver dogs.

PETER ODOM: Right. They would have to show...

GRACE: I said...

PETER ODOM: They would have to show...

GRACE: ... cadaver dogs.

PETER ODOM: ... the record of these cadaver dogs, yes.

GRACE: Right. I`m talking about, as I originally said, they`re not going to bring in statistics or other cases where other cadaver dogs have been wrong.

PETER ODOM: Right, and...

GRACE: If they want to attack the credibility of these cadaver dogs, they better get busy on their cross-examination.

PETER ODOM: Unfortunately, most of the people that are charge of statistics, of keeping statistics about these cadaver dogs, are the police that handle them themselves. It`s very difficult to get reliable information about their track records. There are lots of documented examples of many trained dogs having false positives. And I`m sure that the defense, if they do their homework, which I`m sure they will, is going to bring in that evidence of false positives.

GRACE: To Joey Jackson, defense attorney in New York. Joey, what about the statement that Linda Kenney Baden made? I have always found her extremely forthcoming. She`s an excellent trial lawyer. And it`s out there. Tot mom lied about Zanny the nanny. They`re screwed!

JOEY JACKSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, not necessarily. Listen, I don`t think that there`s anyone in America who said when they heard this, Oh, really? Did she lie? I think everyone knows the Zenaida issue was a lie. Everyone knows that she is her own worst enemy, the defendant in this case. But remember the spin that she puts on this by saying, Simply because she`s a liar does not mean she`s a murderer.

GRACE: But I was just going to get to that. To John Morgan. Everybody, you know John Morgan. You see his face drive by on every city bus in America. He is Zenaida Gonzalez`s attorney, well known civil and criminal defense attorney. John Morgan, thank you for being with us. John, here`s the question. Are you with me, John?


GRACE: All right. All -- you know, you`re representing the real Zenaida Gonzalez that has suffered, couldn`t get a job, all this infamy as a result of being named Zanny the nanny. But here`s how it connects her being a liar. So what if she`s a liar? Don`t care. But if tot mom lied when police should have been out looking for the body of her 2-year-old girl, that proves she tried to slow down the investigation, which does go to her culpability as a killer.

MORGAN: And here`s the real thing that Linda Baden -- she says that just because she lied doesn`t mean she`s guilty. That`s wrong. Just because she lied means she is guilty, and here`s why. Her story was the nanny took the child and told her, If you try to come find us, if you try to come get us, I will kill your family and the baby. And because she lied about the nanny, it means she is guilty.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County Utility emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There were plants growing up through the small skeleton.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The skeletal remains of a child found less than a quarter of a mile from Caylee Anthony`s home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And bug evidence was also recovered.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the FBI says it found, quote, "an unusually large concentration of chloroform" in the carpet sample from Casey`s trunk where investigators found a mysterious stain.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m frustrated and I`m angry!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Detectives believe Casey took the actions that led to her daughter`s death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is a very effective liar.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is exactly what her former lawyer is saying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think I`d use the word diabolical to describe the way she lies.

CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie.

I walked her to the stairs. That`s where I`ve dropped her off a bunch of other times.

I lied.

The media`s going to have a frickin` field day with this!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to test results conducted on the trunk of Casey`s car, the body spent at least two days it there before it was dumped.


GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Straight out to Becky in Virginia. Hi, Becky.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call. And thanks for everything you do.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is, did Casey write any incriminating letters to any of her cellmates or family members? And if so, could those be used as evidence in court?

GRACE: Good question. What do we know about that? Any letters from her, Jean Casarez?

CASAREZ: You know, there`s a lot of letters, I mean, pages and pages in writing. She never admits to a crime. But there was Myra Dirkavic (ph), who was an inmate who said that Casey went so far as to talk about a substance, chloroform, she believed. But I don`t think the prosecution`s going to put that witness on the stand in the case in chief.

GRACE: Explain -- say that again? I didn`t get it.

CASAREZ: I don`t think the prosecution will put that jailhouse inmate in their case. I think they`ve given notice they will not. And I think that`s because she may have recanted what Casey allegedly told her in jail.

GRACE: Yes, and another thing, Jean. When you have to use a jailhouse rat, it -- you know, if you`ve got strong evidence, go with it. Why taint...


GRACE: ... why put in one bad apple that could spoil the whole bunch?

Out to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who bailed tot mom out of jail. What do you make of this, that one of her own defense attorney, a highly respected attorney, as a matter of fact, says tot mom lied about Zanny the nanny?

LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: You got to figure that as knowledgeable as Mrs. Baden is, she`s got to know that she had to have permission from her client to release that information, and that was a way of kind of smoothing over the lie because that`s going to be the big lie that was going to come out anyhow. She told two different stories, one to law enforcement and one to us. And somewhere along the line, this was all going to be in front of a jury. Now it doesn`t have to be in front of a jury. It can just be overlooked.

The state might bring it up, but then they`re going to say, Well, her attorney already said that it was a lie. Let`s just not go into that. So as far as that goes, that`s what I believe it`s all about, unless Ms. Baden just had a senior moment and just blew her oath to her client.

GRACE: I doubt she`s going to be happy with you saying she had a senior moment.

But back to Jean Casarez. It`s not just one lie. She led the cops on for months. And describe that wild goose chase she took them on.

CASAREZ: Yes. Well, we can look at the indictment, and it talks about not only Zenaida Gonzalez, it talks about that she said she worked at Universal. It talks about that she said she received a call from Caylee on July 15th. But Nancy, maybe the defense is going to stipulate to those counts.



CASEY ANTHONY: Casey Marie Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Evidence of duct tape found over the mouth of the child`s skull, high levels of chloroform found in the trunk of Casey`s car and cell phone pings that place her near the crime scene during those days in June. Sources say it paints a picture that points only to the child`s mother.




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony about to go on trial for her daughter, Caylee`s, murder.

911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s your emergency?

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: I found out my granddaughter has been taken! She has been missing for a month!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A utility worker makes a gruesome discovery in central Florida.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He saw a plastic bag, picked it up, and the child`s skull rolled out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee`s mouth was covered with silver duct tape that had a heart-shaped sticker on it.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know my mom will never forgive me. I`m never going to forgive myself.


GRACE: Back to Jean Casarez. Jean, I want to go through when cops first approached her about her daughter, Caylee, being missing. She told all these stories -- in fact, two different stories about Zanny the nanny.


GRACE: One was that she was taken from her forcefully. Zanny took her in broad daylight in a public park, Jay Blanchard Park. And the second was she took her to go baby-sit and never brought her back, that she took her to Sawgrass Apartments. Let`s see shots of those, Liz. Explain the two stories she told about Zanny the nanny.

CASAREZ: That`s right, the Sawgrass Apartments, that she dropped her off to Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez, later on, Jay Blanchard Park. But that night, Nancy, July 15th, 2008, Deputy Acevedo (ph) took Casey to the Sawgrass Apartments, where she pointed out the exact apartment where Zanny the nanny took Caylee.

GRACE: And not just that, Peter Odom, Joey Jackson, Eleanor Odom, get a load of this. She said not only that, but didn`t she say Zanny the nanny`s mother -- she took them somewhere else and said, yes, that`s where she lives. I mean, this is a big, elaborate lie, Peter Odom. It goes on and on. She drove the cops all over the county, explaining what Zanny the nanny had done to steal Caylee and that`s why she says she didn`t report it to police.

PETER ODOM: And she`s never going to be able to prove that those things that she said were true. So she`s got to do what the defense attorney, Mrs. Baden, said, she`s got to embrace those lies and then come up with...

GRACE: Put him up!

PETER ODOM: ... a defense that is consistent with it.

GRACE: Repeat. Put him up! Could you repeat the part about embracing her lies because I want to look at you when you say it.

PETER ODOM: She`s got to embrace the -- her defense has to embrace the lies because she can`t walk away from it.

GRACE: Love it!

PETER ODOM: If they try and deny all this, Nancy, then...

GRACE: Eleanor!

PETER ODOM: ... they`re just ensuring her conviction.

GRACE: She`s got to embrace the lie. You know, I`ve never heard it put so delicately. It`s like pouring...


PETER ODOM: I`m not trying to be delicate.

GRACE: ... Coco Chanel on a big, fat pig in the mud! Embrace the lie. Embrace the lie. What does that mean, Eleanor?

ELEANOR ODOM: It means the defense doesn`t have anywhere else to go, Nancy. They see a conviction headed their way.

GRACE: You ever heard of that, Joey Jackson, "embrace the lie"?

JACKSON: It doesn`t mean any such thing. What it means is that she was confused and under duress. That`s all that it means.


CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on!

CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down, baby.

CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s letting me speak! You want me to talk then...


CASEY ANTHONY: ... give me three seconds...

CINDY ANTHONY: I`ll listen to you.

CASEY ANTHONY: ... to say something!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I`m sure she sees herself as the victim, but that`s the same denial she`s been in from the very beginning.




CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: There`s something wrong. I saw my daughter`s car today, and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Sometimes people make mistakes.

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: No, I would not let anything happen to my daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: FBI agents sifted through buckets and buckets of dirt.

CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew where she was, this wouldn`t be going on.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Dug up from the wooded area believed to be little Caylee Anthony`s shallow grave.

BAEZ: And that doesn`t mean they should pay for it for the rest of their lives.

CPL. YURY MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Like almost every statement Casey has made, it`s just not true.

MELICH: Is your daughter in a better place?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, she`s not.

MELICH: No more lies. What happened to Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: "Not only did she say I was lying, but when I explained anything, her reaction was literally like a knife in my chest. So that`s why you`re a whore?"

LINDA KENNEY BADEN, FORMER TOT MOM DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Because of who she is, because of her upbringing, because of how she`s been treated, she lies. But being a liar does not make you a murder.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: That`s Anthony`s former defense attorney Linda Kenney Baden on CBS "48 Hours" describing how her client, tot mom, is a liar and going through a string of tot mom`s lies.

We are taking your calls, to Crystal in Texas. Hi, Crystal.


GRACE: Do I have Crystal? Hi, dear. What`s your question?

CRYSTAL: Well, first, I want to say happy anniversary. And Happy Easter.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you very much. I`m going to pass that on.

CRYSTAL: And -- well, I actually have two questions. One, where is Caylee`s dad in all this?

GRACE: Where is Caylee`s dad? That`s a -- that`s whole another can of worms, Crystal. Hold on. I hope you`re -- hope you`re sitting down with your seatbelt buckled.

David Lohr, senior crime reporter, "Huffington Post." You know, after all this time we still don`t know who Caylee`s father is.

DAVID LOHR, SENIOR CRIME REPORTER, HUFFINGTON POST: That`s true, Nancy. And they`ve done multiple DNA tests. Even to the point of seeing whether George or her brother could be the father, and so far nothing. We have no idea who the dad is.

GRACE: Now when you say multiple DNA tests -- there you go. Who -- keep that screen up, Liz, please.

Who took DNA tests to try to rule in or out paternity, David Lohr?

LOHR: Well, we know -- we know it was compared to Jesse Grund, her former boyfriend. We know it was compared to her brother, Lee Anthony. We know it was compared to her father, George Anthony.

And I`m sure there`s multiple other tests that we don`t even know about that have been compared.

GRACE: You know what I`m way over, David Lohr? Is everybody pointing at her own brother, Lee Anthony, and her father, George Anthony? As child molester --

LOHR: You know a lot of --

GRACE: As child molesters. That`s basically what they`re saying.

LOHR: Yes, but a lot of that is her fault.

GRACE: It is.

LOHR: She`s the one saying in jailhouse letters and telling everybody that. She kind of used it --

GRACE: I`m not blaming you. No, no, no. Let me correct that misconception. That was my fault. I don`t mean you, David. I mean because she put it out there.

LOHR: Yes.

GRACE: She totally put it out there. That`s why her own brother, Lee Anthony, who`s one of the few people who stuck by her, and her father and mother, George Anthony and Lee Anthony had to give DNA or they got DNA somehow and performed a DNA test on them to determine whether they were the father, Caylee`s father.

Now at first when I saw that they had -- they were using their DNA, I thought well, they`re probably just double-checking that none of their DNA is at the crime scene just to rule them out for the state, for prosecution. Because you don`t want some crazy theory popping up at trial, and you didn`t do your homework.

You go, no, no, no. Their DNA was not at the crime scene, blah, blah. Then it came out that they were actually ruled out for paternity. And that all came from tot mom. She`s the one that started that, did she not, David Lohr?

LOHR: Yes. It`s correct. She`s made them references to former boyfriends in jailhouse letters. She`s made accusations that her brother used to come in at night when she was led on, he would pull up her shirt and, you know, that she thought maybe her father had done the same thing.

So I mean all that`s been put out there by her.

GRACE: To Bethany Marshall. Dr. Bethany, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers." What do you make of that? I no more think that George Anthony or Lee Anthony molested tot mom than the man in on the moon. That did not happen.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, she lied about them for two reasons. One is that she`s trying to shove the blame into them. It`s their fault that everything bad has transpired in her life.

But also, Nancy, she tries to alienate everybody in her social circle from each other. She doesn`t want her boyfriend to talk to her dad or her dad to talk to her mom or her mom to talk Zenaida Gonzalez. We know that that person wasn`t really the nanny.

So when she tells these horrible, malicious lies about her father then her best friend maybe won`t call up the father to maybe verify a story she`s telling. So it`s really alienation from one person in her social circle to another.

Can I make a brief comment about Miss Baden`s comments?


MARSHALL: On CBS. I think what she did was brilliant from a social psychology perspective. Because she`s saying to the potential jury pool, we`re not stupid as a defense team. You and I, the jury pool, we`re in the same boat. We all know she`s a liar. And it`s a nutty problem that we`re all wrestling with.

And then she says she lied because of who she is, her upbringing and how she was treated. She suddenly pushes the blame into the parents just like Casey did.

GRACE: You know what, Dr. Bethany? You`re absolutely correct. I heard that, but I didn`t -- it didn`t register it the way you just described it.

Speaking of tot mom shifting the blame to her father and brother, take a listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I woke up night after night with my sports bra lifted over my chest, or if I had on a regular bra, it would be unhooked. Even if I was doing karate in my sleep, that wouldn`t have happened. I woke up many times to a flashlight in my face and he would be sitting on the floor in the front of my bed staring at me. This went on for over three years before I finally stood up to Lee and I told him if he ever came in my room again, I`d kill him.

"I was 15. It started just before I turned 12 when I told my mom about it two years ago. She made excuses saying that he was sleepwalking. Not only did she say I was lying, but when I explained everything her reaction was literally like a knife in my chest. So that`s why you`re a whore.

"I don`t think having had sex with seven people makes me a whore, but I could be wrong. I can see it my room exactly the way it was when I was in elementary school. And everything gets fuzzy, but I wake up feeling both sore and sick to my stomach. The way I used to feel growing up. That`s part of the reason I haven`t been sleeping much or very well lately. Maybe that`s part of the reason why I have so much anxiety with my parents.

"I was able to get past things with Lee, and it was far from easy. I saw a doctor on my own when I was 18. No one knows that I went to get help except for you now. I found the courage to finally tell him that I forgive him, and you know he never asked me what I was forgiving him for. I think he must have known. That`s why we`re more friends than brother/sister.

"It`s easier to look at him as my friend. But even with openly forgiving him, part of that pain will always live in me. Not knowing about my dad it`s opened up a whole new case of insecurity, and I don`t know if I want to know, but I think I need to. Please pray for me. Why after all this time is this all surfacing?"


GRACE: And it goes on and on and on.

And Ellie Jostad, these accusations are not just against Lee Anthony. Some of those were against her own father, George.

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Yes. That`s right. In those letters she said that she vaguely remembers something like that maybe happening with her father when she was younger. And she also told her most recent boyfriend that her father was abusing her. Now he says it wasn`t necessarily sexual but she made is out to look like George Anthony was a very bad guy.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who has her? Do you have a name?

CASEY ANTHONY: Her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez.

CINDY ANTHONY: Zanny is the babysitter that has watched Caylee consistently for the last -- maybe year and a half.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The Zenaida Gonzalez that has been talked to us by Casey is nonexistent.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Over the past few months, I`ve been having really vivid dreams and it`s obvious that they are dreams of things that have already happened. I think my dad used to do the same thing to me, but when I was much younger.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m frustrated and I`m angry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just the going out, the partying. I don`t know if you guys have seen the pictures. If you see anywhere, you could find those from (INAUDIBLE) party.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Casey gets a tattoo on her shoulder that reads, "Buena vita," good life.

CASEY ANTHONY: It`s disgusting, and people really need to get a life.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: So she lied when she said that the nanny kidnapped the baby?

BADEN: Sure. I think everyone knows that that was a lie. Her actions have been her own worst enemy.

PAM BONDI, FLORIDA ATTORNEY GENERAL: She was a habitual liar by all her friends and family`s accounts. It`s documented that she was taking money from her grandmother that was used to help care for her grandfather.

BADEN: Because of who she is, because of her upbringing, because of how she`s been treated, she lies. But being a liar does not make you a murderer.


GRACE: That is from CBS`s "48 Hours." Back to Crystal in Texas.

What was the rest of your question, dear?

CRYSTAL: Yes, OK. Kronk -- that`s his name, right? The electric guy or whatever? The meter reader?

GRACE: Right. Kronk.

CRYSTAL: OK. If he saw the body like months before they actually found her body, how did he possibly see the body if the area was flooded?

GRACE: OK. Great question. Explain it, Jean Casarez.

JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": That is a question unanswered. It wasn`t flooded during that time. Remember he went back in August. It was flooded, I think, after that. But law enforcement wouldn`t help him. He called three times, and nobody would really help him with what he saw.

GRACE: And there are records of him calling.

To Paul Penzone, former sergeant, Phoenix PD, child advocate. Weigh in, Paul.

PAUL PENZONE, DIRECT OF PREVENTION PROGRAMS, CHILDHELP.ORG, FMR. SERGEANT, PHOENIX PD: Well, normally in my experience we interview suspects and they`ve tried every other alibi possible like she has with all the deceit. Then they go to something where they`re trying to have some elaborate, I`ve been a victim.

It`s obviously because they`re guilty because now they`re looking to be able to justify later on once you prove their guilt. But this is a tragedy, and it`s turning into a travesty because this young lady, instead of us being focused on her daughter, we`re focused on the ridiculous excuses that she`s making which ultimately we all know she`s responsible for this murder.

GRACE: And to say that her lying about the existence of Zenaida Gonzalez, Zanny the nanny, the fact that she lied doesn`t mean she`s a killer, the reality is that lying about that slowed down the investigation horribly. She says she didn`t report the child missing by Zanny the nanny because she thought she`s going to bring her back, and that the nanny had threatened her family.

All that is lies. Which means we`re left the question, why didn`t she go to cops when her daughter went missing?

To John Morgan, Zenaida Gonzalez -- the real Zenaida`s attorney, high profile lawyer joining us out of Daytona Beach, Florida, tonight.

John, what is the response of the real Zenaida Gonzalez to this that tot mom`s own defense attorney says she lied about that, there is no Zanny, and a lot of good it does her now anyway. Her reputation was already ruined.

JOHN MORGAN, ATTORNEY FOR ZENAIDA GONZALEZ: Her life has been hell. She has lost jobs and her reputation. And look, the simple fact is, she`s not going to be able to embrace the lies. Linda Baden`s statements on "48 Hours" are not going to admissible into evidence.

The only person that can stand up in that courtroom and say, I lied, is Casey Anthony. The family may want to get up and say we never really believed her. They may want to say that, but, look, Linda Baden better hope she had permission from Casey to say that Casey was lying about it, because if she didn`t, I know here in Florida, I`d be worried about a bar investigation.

GRACE: What about it, Eleanor Odom?

ELEANOR ODOM, FELONY PROSECUTOR, DEATH PENALTY QUALIFIED: Well, and Nancy, first of all, the only person as John said who could say they lied is Casey Anthony. Her story can`t be told through anyone else. In other words, psychiatrists, witnesses can`t get up there and say, well, this is what Casey told me. And her --

GRACE: But I mean, it`s going to come out in opening statements when the state gives their opening statement that she lied.

E. ODOM: Exactly. Because we have so many people who are going to be able to talk about that from the state`s point of view. But the defense can`t put that up.

GRACE: Absolutely. You`re right, Eleanor.

To Dr. Vincent Dimaio, chief medical examiner, formerly in Bexar County, forensic pathologist joining us tonight out of San Antonio.

Dr. Dimaio, thank you for being with us. We also learned tonight the likelihood that the outline of a child`s body -- it`s not that clear-cut.


GRACE: In tot mom`s car trunk is going to come in. Experts argue that it`s in the shape of a child, and they also argue it`s a stain left by decomposition. How could that be? How would that have happened, Doctor?

DR. VINCENT DIMAIO, M.D., FORMER CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER, BEXAR COUNTY, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, when the body decomposes, it leaks fluids, you know, body fluids as everything becomes necrotic.


DIMAIO: And you could actually -- probably have made scrapings.

GRACE: What`s necrotic? You mean necrotic, dead?



DIMAIO: Yes. Rots. That`s what it is. And so, of course, if she was wrapped all you`re going to get is the fluids, but if she wasn`t too wrapped, you can actually get cells, you know decomposing cells from the body in this fluid.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. To Angela in Florida. Hi, Angela.

ANGELA, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hey, huge fans in this household.

GRACE: Well, likewise. Likewise. Just came back from Florida, taking my twins down to Disney. It`s the first time any of us had been. It was -- it was magical. That truly is a magical kingdom.

So Angela, what`s your question, dear?

ANGELA: My question is probably more directed towards the body language expert I know you usually have. I notice that you do a screen shot of four different appearances of Casey Anthony in court and of her crying. And I noticed that every single time she`s on camera crying she always wipes her little tear and looks at her tear on her finger, like, oh, I just cried. Good job for me. Good act for me or I can`t believe I actually cried. She`s never truly, really crying. Like me, if I`m crying, I`m crying.

I was just wondering what the body language expert --

GRACE: You know, let`s go to Dr. Bethany Marshall. Angela in Florida brings up a good point.

What do you make of that?

MARSHALL: Well, I agree with her. The crying does not seem genuine. And to me that points to a larger pattern of antisocial behavior. Women who are antisocial have very low levels of anxiety about getting into trouble, so that the tears are shallow because she`s not anxious about being caught.

GRACE: We are taking your calls, but now to "CNN HEROES."


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: September 11th was a very tough time for the fire department. I lost some friends, guys I went to the academy with. Afterwards people came from everywhere to help us out. It was incredible. You knew you weren`t alone.

JEFF PARNESS, CNN HERO: In New York, you see an outpouring of kindness and generosity, it was more powerful than the terror that happened. That really changed me.

I`m Jeff Parness, and I just want to show the world that New Yorkers will never forget what people did for us following 9/11.

Every year on the 9/11 anniversary we take volunteers from New York and send them to some part of the country where they had a disaster and help folks rebuild.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) town, the tallest thing there is the grain silo. It`s definitely a little culture shock.

PARNESS: Rebuilding homes or barns or churches, it`s our way to say thank you. Now more than half our volunteers are not from New York.

People from all the small towns that we`ve helped, they keep showing up to help the next community. They`re from Louisiana and California, Indiana and Illinois. Every year you keep seeing more t-shirts from more locations.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re going to pitch in as much as we can.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After Katrina, we just jumped on his bandwagon. This whole paying it forward thing is just contagious.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s like this big dysfunctional family reunion of all these disaster survivors who get together and do a barn raising.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re banging nails and building something, but it`s a relationship that will help you heal.

PARNESS: It`s about using the 9/11 anniversary to celebrate in that volunteer spirit.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ll see you all next year.

PARNESS: People say thank you for doing this. I said, you want to thank me? Show up on the next one.





UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Today, while reviewing that unaired footage from our archives, we noticed this roll of duct tape lying on a table, an item detectives have never seen until right now. Visually it appears similar to the extremely rare industrial-grade fire-resistant --


GRACE: We are taking your calls. But let`s direct those -- that question from Angela in Florida to the attorneys.

Eleanor Odom, Washington D.C., Joe Jackson, New York, Peter Odom, Atlanta.

What about it, Joe Jackson? Is Angela right? I mean, she seems to be -- seems like she`s got one tear. She can eke out that one tear and then you know what, it`s over.


GRACE: Back to flirting with her defense attorney, Jose Baez.

JACKSON: Let`s be fair. I think that`s utter and pure speculation. I understand --

GRACE: I didn`t say it. Angela said it.

JACKSON: There`s a reservoir -- I understand. There`s a reservoir of meanness towards her, there`s a reservoir of bad feelings. But that doesn`t make her suggestion that --

GRACE: OK. Look. You know what, Peter Odom, he can talk all he wants to about a reservoir of bad feeling. But the reality is --


GRACE: They need to school her on how to behave in front of a jury.

P. ODOM: Nancy, the people who hate her no matter what she does, they`re going to hate her. The people that support her no matter what she does are going to support her .

GRACE: You know what? Eleanor, it`s not that we hate her. It`s that we loved Caylee.

E. ODOM: Well, and we hate what she did. And that was kill her daughter.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Specialist James Costello III, 27, St. Louis, Missouri, killed Iraq. From a family of vets, awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Gold Star.

A history buff. Loved NASCAR and hockey. Favorite teams, St. Louis Cardinals and St. Louis Blues. Leaves behind father, Jim, sister, Katie, brother, Rob.

James Costello, American hero.

Thank to you and to our guests, and a special good night from the New York control room. Where are they?

Good night, dear. Liz, Dana, Rosie.

And everyone, the Georgia Child I.D. Program, CHIP, a child recovery I.D., provides digital photos, fingerprints, I.D. cards. It`s free. Sign up at

And congratulations to our friend, defense attorney Richard Herman. After battling leukemia, he marries Alyiissa and now they welcome their baby girl, Briella, seven pounds, 10 ounces.

To those of you observing Passover, blessed (INAUDIBLE).

And tonight is Good Friday. For everyone that still seeks the Prince of Peace, we wish you a wonderful and blessed Easter. See you Monday night, 8:00 sharp Eastern.

Congratulations, Richard Herman.

And until then, good night, friend.