Return to Transcripts main page
Joy Behar Page
New Details on bin Laden Death; Interview With Morgan Spurlock; Interview With Marlo Thomas
Aired May 04, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, the bin Laden raid gets murkier as Pakistani intelligence leaks seemingly contradictory reports of the strike that killed Osama. Meanwhile the political landscape is just as murky. Did the President get an approval boost?
Then filmmaker Morgan Spurlock tells Joy how he`s gone from super- sizing to bin Laden hunting to product showing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN SPURLOCK, FILMMAKER: What I want to do is make a film all about product placement, marketing and advertising where the entire film is funded by product placement, marketing and advertising.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Plus Marlo Thomas dishes on working with Miley Cyrus and explains why she wants to bring back "Take Your Daughter to Work" day.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: The White House decided earlier today that photos of a dead Osama bin Laden will not be released to the public. Press secretary Jay Carney quoted President Obama as saying, quote, "We don`t trot out this stuff as trophies," unquote.
Here now to discuss that decision as well as the newest details on the bin Laden story is Brian Ross, ABC News`s chief investigative correspondent who has been reporting on this story all week. Brian, it`s great to have you here.
BRIAN ROSS, CHIEF INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT, ABC NEWS: Good to be here tonight, Joy.
BEHAR: Ok. Besides the trophy remark from the President, what about national security? I think that that might have something to do with it also, right?
ROSS: I think the concern is that it`s going to inflame people and put Americans overseas, American soldiers, American tourists, American government officials at great risk. That is the basis for the decision as I understand it.
BEHAR: I see.
Now, bin Laden reportedly had 500 euros, he had two phone numbers sewn into his clothing. It looks like he was ready to split at a moment`s notice. Do you have any information on how he would have tried to do that, where did he plan to go or anything about that?
ROSS: No, it`s a real mystery because there does not appear to be a back door or secret tunnel leading out of that compound which he`s lived in for the last five or six years. So it`s not clear what he had in mind with those kind of measures which are clearly designed for him to flee.
BEHAR: Do we know whose phone numbers those were that he was holding.
ROSS: Not yet, but I`m certain the CIA does and they`re listening to them now.
BEHAR: I really would like to know whose phone numbers are on there.
ROSS: Yes.
BEHAR: Don`t you. I`m dying to hear all this.
ROSS: No, who`s your life line at that point, right?
BEHAR: Yes. Exactly.
ROSS: Your bail bondsman.
BEHAR: Maybe it`s Regis Philbin.
The wife who was shot was identified, what can you tell us about her?
ROSS: Well, she`s 29 years old and she was given to bin Laden as a gift when she was 18 or so. He wanted a younger wife. He divorced one of his four wives to make room for her so it was compliant with Islamic law.
Reportedly had three children, a daughter and two sons, and the daughter reportedly was in the room when her father was shot and the mother apparently rushed the U.S. Navy SEALs and was shot in the leg, according to the accounts we got from the White House which have shifted, but that`s the current account.
BEHAR: The CIA denied all that, as I understand it.
ROSS: Well, no, the White House has said pretty clearly that the wife was in the room with bin Laden and tried to rush the U.S. Navy SEALs and they shot her in the leg.
BEHAR: Yes.
ROSS: And then they shot bin Laden.
BEHAR: But I think they`re denying that the 12-year-old saw the whole thing, right?
ROSS: Well, they`re denying her account to -- at least reported in some Arab outlets -- is that her father had been captured early on and was shot later. They`re certainly saying that`s not the case.
BEHAR: What happened to all the children that were left there, though? We don`t know too much about that yet.
ROSS: Well, we know the U.S. Navy SEALs put plastic handcuffs, flex cuffs on every person there and left them essentially by the side of the road, they`re all in the custody of Pakistani authorities. The mother was treated at a local hospital in Abbottabad and then was taken to Islamabad, the capital where the daughter also is and they`re being questioned.
The U.S. has asked to speak to the wife and the Pakistanis who are none too pleased with the U.S. right now say we`ll think about it.
BEHAR: Ok. Thanks, Brian, very much for the update.
ROSS: You bet, Joy.
BEHAR: Ok. Now I want to turn to senior CNN political analyst, the lovely Gloria Borger. Hello, Gloria.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Hello. How are you?
BEHAR: Good to see you here. A couple polls on Obama`s approval have come out since bin Laden`s killing. They`re all very different. I mean the "New York Times"/CBS says that he`s up 11 points --
BORGER: Right.
BEHAR: -- ABC/"Washington Post" says nine points; CNN, one point, and "Newsweek", zero. What do you make of that?
BORGER: Well, it`s hard -- you know, it`s really hard to say.
Our poll at CNN was taken very quickly. The CBS News poll let kind of the news sink in and some of the news about how the President managed this sink in.
If you go back to the capture of Saddam Hussein for George Bush just by comparison, his popularity went up eight points. So Barack Obama`s went up somewhere between zero and 11.
BEHAR: Yes.
BORGER: The thing that we do know for certain about this, Joy, is that this stuff doesn`t really last. You know.
BEHAR: No.
BORGER: People kind of -- the approval rating shoots up, and then they`re like that`s fabulous, and let`s get back to work. Let`s figure out where our jobs are and how the economy is doing and how does it affect me, and you know, less than half of the people in the CBS poll approve of the way the President`s handling the economy. So that`s still going to be his big problem. So he gets a short term bump.
BEHAR: Yes. And also, even if they don`t approve in huge numbers that doesn`t mean they`re not going to vote for him.
BORGER: Right. Right. No, absolutely, because of course, as you know it`s compared to whom.
BEHAR: That`s right.
BORGER: We don`t know who that is yet.
BEHAR: Anyway, it`s too early to tell at this point. We don`t know anything.
BORGER: Sure. Absolutely.
BEHAR: But let`s say, it goes up -- do you have any idea how long a bump does last?
BORGER: No. You know, you really don`t know. Sometimes more details will come out and it will give you more of an insight into the President`s leadership style here, and you know, that could help him.
I think one thing it does take away, though, from the campaign -- I was talking to a Republican about this today, who has been advising Republicans: Number one, keep your mouth shut if you don`t have anything nice to say, because you don`t want -- the first person who makes this political is going to lose. Ok? And number two, it`s kind of hard to call Obama wimpy, weak --
BEHAR: Right.
BORGER: -- when you saw the kind of decision that he made -- right -- which was, you know, kind of a tough decision to make. So those things are kind of off the table right now.
BEHAR: And do you think that that will hold, that anti-wimpy image that he now has?
BORGER: Well, I think the White House clearly has the ammunition that they need right now. It`s like, you know what? We killed Osama bin Laden, folks. Ok? End of discussion, right?
BEHAR: Right.
Ok. Now President Bush, he decided not to take President Obama up on his invitation to appear at Ground Zero tomorrow. What do you make of that?
BORGER: Well, personally I`m sorry. I think it would have been a great thing to see the two of them together. Republicans, some I talked to say, you know what, the President should have mentioned George W. Bush last -- on Sunday night, and he didn`t, so maybe there was some hurt feelings there.
BEHAR: Oh, boy.
BORGER: I know, but I`ve got to believe -- I`ve got to believe that the real reason is that Bush has stayed out of politics completely and stayed out of the public eye completely, and I think he`s sort of not ready to do that yet. I think it would have been a nice thing to see, but not happening.
BEHAR: It`s either that, and he doesn`t want to steal Obama`s thunder or else he`s saving the photo op for whoever is the Republican candidate.
BORGER: Well -- that could be. But here`s the other interesting thing about the politics of this and it does involve the Bush administration because coming out of all of this, Joy, is the question of torture. And the question of just how we got to Osama bin Laden. Does it mean that George W. Bush and Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld were right about the black prisons and the waterboarding?
BEHAR: Yes.
BORGER: Or were they wrong. My sources say to me, you know what? This didn`t have anything to do with waterboarding because the clue that they got from Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was a lie. He told them a lie that he didn`t know who this courier was, and they knew from intelligence that the courier was actually his protege. And Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times. So.
BEHAR: Well, that tells you something right there.
BORGER: Right. So it`s hard to make the case. But some Republicans are saying, you know what? The original tip, you don`t know if that person had been waterboarded, so the debate over the use of waterboarding or enhanced interrogation as it`s called is clearly going to continue, even after the capture of Osama bin Laden.
BEHAR: And even after the factual information you just gave me.
BORGER: Right. Right.
BEHAR: You know -- but that -- maybe it`s because they don`t -- they feel guilty about having done it and now they have to justify what they did.
BORGER: Well, but here`s -- here`s what`s interesting. When you talk to people inside the administration who know a lot more about this than I do, and in fact even the CIA director himself said it`s kind of an open question because there were a zillion pieces to this puzzle. And some of the detainees may have been waterboarded and some of them less high value may now have been waterboarded.
What we do know for a fact is that the very high value, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, allegedly responsible for 9/11, who was waterboarded, lied.
BEHAR: Yes, yes, yes. Right.
BORGER: That`s all we know for sure.
BEHAR: Ok. All right. Very good. Thanks very much.
BORGER: Sure.
BEHAR: Keep us posted. We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up next on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Morgan Spurlock talks about his own search for Osama bin Laden as well as his new film "The Greatest Movie Ever Sold".
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Morgan Spurlock`s new film is "Pom Wonderful Presents: The Greatest Movie Ever Sold" which explores the practice of product placement on the big screen.
Please welcome Morgan Spurlock.
You know, we`re going to get to your movie about product placement in a minute.
MORGAN SPURLOCK, FILMAKER: Right.
BEHAR: But you also have a movie out in search of Osama bin Laden.
(CROSSTALK)
SPURLOCK: "Where in the World is Osama bin Laden?".
BEHAR: "Where in the World" -- I`m sorry.
SPURLOCK: And we know the answer to that now.
BEHAR: We do know it now. But you went looking for him.
SPURLOCK: I did. Yes.
BEHAR: Why?
SPURLOCK: Well it was -- it was like 2006 we got the idea for the film. He just put out another tape, you know, and I said we should -- we should get to the bottom of this. You know all of the newscasters are like, where is he, why haven`t we found him, and so I said let`s -- let`s go on that search. Let`s ask that question.
BEHAR: You were actually very close to where they found bin Laden in Abbottabad.
SPURLOCK: We were in Abbottabad.
BEHAR: It`s like, hey, Abbottabad.
BEHAR: Hey Abbottabad.
SPURLOCK: Do, do, do, do. Abbottabad.
We were in Islamabad, which was about -- we`re about 25 miles away, I guess, when everybody that we were talking to was pointing us towards Waziristan, towards the tribal area of Pakistan. And so we kind of stopped.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What`s the difference between a -stan and -abad?
SPURLOCK: That`s a great question, I don`t know the answer to that question.
BEHAR: You don`t know Islamabad and Waziristan and Afghanistan.
SPURLOCK: I don`t know.
BEHAR: Yes.
SPURLOCK: It`s a good question, though. For someone --
BEHAR: I mean, -abad is probably a more sophisticated area.
SPURLOCK: I think probably more of like a -- like a township maybe. Or no I guess -abad is probably more like a city.
BEHAR: Yes. Like Islamabad is capital, right?
SPURLOCK: Yes it`s more like a town.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
SPURLOCK: Yes, it`s more like a country or region.
BEHAR: Yes. Yes.
SPURLOCK: I think -stan is like a region.
BEHAR: I see.
SPURLOCK: That`s what I would go with.
BEHAR: Ok. But so -- so what would you have done if you had found him? By the way.
SPURLOCK: You know, thrown a big net over him? It`s like waiting for like a prize patrol (ph) to show up with a giant check. That was the thing, the plan was to try -- try and find him, try and, you know, ask him some questions, but none of that happened.
BEHAR: At that time you thought that he was in a cave, like everybody else did.
SPURLOCK: Well, the people were telling us they thought he was in -- in a compound in the tribal area. Like people thought he was in a compound, that he was -- he wasn`t going to be hiding out in some cave somewhere, and so that`s what we thought. We thought he would -- we would find him in some giant fortress within the tribal region.
BEHAR: No kidding.
SPURLOCK: Yes.
BEHAR: Because you know, Christiane Amanpour said on the Bill Maher show -- I want to show you what she said.
SPURLOCK: Yes.
BEHAR: Play that for a second in 2008.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t Osama bin Laden laugh his ass off? You`ve met him, does he --
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: I haven`t met him, I wish I had met him, I wish I`d done an interview. No, I wish --
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Isn`t he in a cave somewhere?
AMANPOUR: He`s not. I just talked to somebody very knowledgeable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wait, she knows where Osama bin Laden --
(CROSSTALK)
AMANPOUR: Well, she doesn`t think, this woman who is in American intelligence says he`s in a villa, in a -- it`s a nice comfortable villa in Pakistan. Not a cave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: See how they sort of dismissed it but she was right.
SPURLOCK: Yes, she was right.
BEHAR: And -- and you sort of knew it also, though.
SPURLOCK: Well, that`s what everybody was pointing us towards that way, saying that you know, they thought he was living in some sort of a compound, some sort of a fortress where he was going to be very well protected, where he would never have to leave and that turns out to be correct.
BEHAR: But why, you know, the Pakistani government put out a statement today that I was reading about how they -- they tipped off the CIA a couple of years ago to say that he was -- they thought he was in this compound.
SPURLOCK: Yes.
BEHAR: And so they are sort of backing off this criticism that they`re getting that they didn`t do anything. Why didn`t they go in if they thought he was there?
SPURLOCK: That`s a great question. I mean, the ISI is a group of really intelligent, smart guys, just like we have at the CIA and I`m sure that for them it`s like, why not -- well, why not just have the Americans do it? It`s like, we don`t want the bad press, let them have the bad press.
BEHAR: Yes, yes. Because they would take a lot of heat for it.
SPURLOCK: We -- we still have a lot of supporters in this country that believe in what Osama bin Laden did.
BEHAR: Yes.
SPURLOCK: So why -- so why be the people who kind of pull that plug?
BEHAR: So you -- you`re of the mind that you know, they knew it in the neighborhood, the government probably knew it and they just left it alone.
SPURLOCK: I think that there were people -- I don`t think everyone knew, and I don`t think like people in the neighborhood were like walking past going, morning, Osama, as he was getting his paper.
BEHAR: Yes, yes.
SPURLOCK: You know, I don`t think that was happening. But I -- I believe there were probably people within the ISI and government that knew.
BEHAR: And then, you know, they had this like terazzo (ph) where they would sun themselves.
SPURLOCK: Yes.
BEHAR: And there`s bin Laden in a Speedo, taking a tan, SPF 30. I mean really it`s unbelievable.
SPURLOCK: Yes.
BEHAR: And living high on the hog, I might point out.
SPURLOCK: Yes. So I guess, a guess a seven-foot tall man mowing the grass. Like you`re going to see that guy mowing his lawn, yes.
BEHAR: Now, you know, they`re saying that Obama handled the thing beautifully.
SPURLOCK: I agree.
BEHAR: You agree.
SPURLOCK: I completely agree.
BEHAR: But --
(CROSSTALK)
SPURLOCK: I think it makes him look incredibly presidential. I think it made him look like a decision maker. I think it erased a lot of the stuff people have been complaining about for the last three years.
BEHAR: Yes.
SPURLOCK: So it`s -- it`s great. I think it was a good thing. The question now is what do we do now? It`s like, this -- here this has happened. He`s one man. There`s plenty of other things happening.
BEHAR: Oh yes.
SPURLOCK: Right now the big question is, great, when do we get out of Afghanistan? Why are we still there? That was the reason we went in, now the guy`s gone, so let`s pack up and leave.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes but now -- ok, so we`re also are looking for the Al Zawahiri guy -- however you say his name?
SPURLOCK: Yes. But he`s not in Afghanistan.
BEHAR: And he might be -- he`s not there.
SPURLOCK: I don`t think he`s there.
BEHAR: So none of the -- you know the Taliban is just fast.
SPURLOCK: Yes.
BEHAR: That`s it.
SPURLOCK: I mean, why -- why would they want to live --
BEHAR: So are we fighting the Taliban?
SPURLOCK: -- why would they want to live in Afghanistan when they can like be living in a villa somewhere?
BEHAR: Thank you.
SPURLOCK: Yes. It`s -- they could be living much more well off somewhere else.
BEHAR: We now know the true colors.
SPURLOCK: Yes.
BEHAR: You know, a Pew poll says that 51 percent say Bush deserves the credit. Why does he deserve the credit? In -- in 2003 press conference --
(CROSSTALK)
SPURLOCK: Well, he did put up all those wanted posters.
BEHAR: Yes, right, exactly.
SPURLOCK: Yes.
BEHAR: He said, "I don`t know where he is, I`ll repeat, what I said, I truly am not that concerned about him, I know he is on the run." That`s what he said in 2003. Why is he getting credit for finding him?
SPURLOCK: I mean I think that it`s people that want to still think that the war on terror which was launched by Bush post 2001 is kind of what led to this. You know, granted, I`m sure a lot of the -- the evidence and the information they got came during that period, that pointed us towards him, but, you know, the sitting president should take the credit.
BEHAR: I was reading that one of the reasons you were looking for bin Laden at time is because you had a son at the time.
SPURLOCK: It`s true, but I hadn`t had him yet.
BEHAR: You haven`t?
SPURLOCK: Now, at the time my wife was pregnant, so now he`s four and a half. I probably wouldn`t be traipsing off to Pakistan and Afghanistan.
BEHAR: You won`t?
SPURLOCK: Had I known -- you know, had I know, my son at that point. Having a kid changes everything.
BEHAR: Who paid for that trip, by the way?
SPURLOCK: It was paid for by the investors in the movie.
COOPER: Did it cost a lot?
SPURLOCK: To go over there, well, there`s tourism. Now you can go over there and go on tours of like Afghanistan and Pakistan and --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Who wants to go there?
SPURLOCK: Tons of people. Yes, Iraq. There`s like Baghdad tour groups now where you can go --
BEHAR: Already?
SPURLOCK: -- and take tours to Baghdad.
BEHAR: My God, it took about 40 years to go back to Vietnam.
SPURLOCK: Yes.
BEHAR: I mean, this is ridiculous.
SPURLOCK: And now they`re going like two years after.
BEHAR: Oh camel rides must be fabulous.
SPURLOCK: That`s right.
BEHAR: Well, you know, in the next segment I want to talk to you about your other movie -- your new movie which is about product placements which is the new trend.
SPURLOCK: The new trend, just like James Bond.
BEHAR: Yes. I want to hear about that. So don`t go away. We`ll be right back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tomorrow on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, the legendary Betty White.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SPURLOCK: In the film, I`ll come visit you guys and pitch you about being in the film. Have you guys ever done product placement, anything like this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) What do we get?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So are you in?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`re in.
SPURLOCK: Mini-Cooper, official car of "The Greatest Movie Ever Sold". Are we getting seven?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was a clip from Morgan Spurlock`s new film "Pom Wonderful Presents: The Greatest Movie Ever Sold".
SPURLOCK: Just rolls off the tongue.
BEHAR: Doesn`t it? It`s a little tricky of a title. Did you consider other titles?
SPURLOCK: We considered whoever would buy the above entitled sponsorship was who got the naming rights. So Pom Wonderful came on, they got the naming rights.
BEHAR: It`s funny because you`re basically criticizing -- you`re basically taking a shot at people who do this product placement.
SPURLOCK: Yes.
BEHAR: But your whole movie is about that you are being product placed.
SPURLOCK: Pay for or buy a program (ph) -- yes. We use their money to kind of create this film that is basically an expose into the world of marketing and advertising. And I think the way that the film kind of holds the curtain back using their own money is great.
BEHAR: It is. But I mean how much control did you have because those people were paying your salary?
SPURLOCK: And they want a lot of control. Like when the contracts first started coming in, you were getting something like Magna Carta. They`re like 50 pages long. You know, they wanted final cut of the movie. They wanted final approval of their products in the film and we pushed back on all of it.
So I think ultimately we were able to maintain at least the sense of creative integrity because we got final cut of the movie.
BEHAR: I see.
SPURLOCK: Yes.
BEHAR: Now, you know, one-third of the budget for the next James Bond film is coming from product placement. Making it the biggest product placement film in history -- $45 million.
SPURLOCK: He just totally -- they just totally ripped off my whole film.
BEHAR: But isn`t that crossing the line a little bit? I mean come on.
SPURLOCK: I think like -- well, the question is, is he going to pull up in front of a hotel and get out and be like, that new Aston Martin handles like a dream.
(CROSSTALK)
SPURLOCK: Like, what`s going to happen? Like, how ruined is it going to become, is it going to feel like a 90-minute Saks Fifth Avenue commercial, you know. Or your Goodwin (ph) commercials.
BEHAR: But you can see the reason they do it is because of (INAUDIBLE)
SPURLOCK: It`s so much money. Well, and plus it`s so much money like especially with a film like that, it`s $150-million movie to make. They`re getting $50 million in money from these sponsors, which is what we did in our films. You get real hard money to go into the film. And then they`re giving you all the soft money promotion around it so when the film comes out there`ll be all these commercials. There`ll be all these like tie-ins of people who are helping to co-promote the movie.
BEHAR: But why do they make movies like that anymore? What happened to a man and woman talk about their relationship indefinitely? Those are the movies I like. What happened to those movies?
SPURLOCK: Those movies are indefinitely boring these days.
BEHAR: Not to me. I still watch French movies because they still do that.
SPURLOCK: And there`s still movies like that and there`s still people like Paul Thomas Anderson who has made some incredible films. "There Will Be Blood", not one product placed in that movie. You know, nobody is pulling out a can of Pepsi in the middle of that film drinking it.
BEHAR: They`re giving blood --
SPURLOCK: Exactly. It was -- you know I think there are people who push against it but it`s a certain kind of film. But if you`re going to make a big giant Hollywood blockbuster smash movie that`s going to play around the world you need that.
BEHAR: You also did the "Super Size Me" movie which I enjoyed. Did you ever find out whether that had any impact on the industry?
SPURLOCK: Well, you know, all those salads --
BEHAR: And you got yourself all fat, fat, fat.
SPURLOCK: I got so fat, fat, fat, my liver got filled with fat. My cholesterol sky-rocketed.
BEHAR: You were sick.
SPURLOCK: I remember like six weeks after the film, (INAUDIBLE) they eliminated Super Size options from the menu. And they said, by the way it has nothing to do with that film whatsoever.
BEHAR: Oh, really. But you survived because you could have killed yourself.
SPURLOCK: I made it. I was really ill and it took me 14 months to lose all the weight. And to this day if I go on a family picnic and have one too many ribs or one too many pieces of fried chicken, I can put on five, ten pounds like that.
BEHAR: Oh, my God, you screwed around with your fat cells.
SPURLOCK: Ruined forever.
BEHAR: Oh, my God. Ok.
"Pom Wonderful Presents: The Greatest Move Ever Sold" is in select theaters now. Go see it.
We`ll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: A priest, a rabbi and an imam walk into a bar. But they find too much sin and evil in there, so instead they walk into our studio, where they find love, peace and harmony.
Joining me to discuss among other things, evil, hell and the death of Osama bin Laden, are Father Edward Beck, religion contributor for ABC News and author of "Soul Provider: Spiritual Steps to Limitless Love." Rabbi Shmuley Boteach, author of "Renewal: A Guide to the Values-Filled Life" and founder of This World, the Values Network. And Imam Johari Abdul Malik, outreach director for the Dar-al Hajj (ph)--
IMAM JOHARI ABDUL-MALIK, OUTREACH DIRECTOR, DAR AL HIJRAH ISLAMIC CENTER: Good try. Good try.
BEHAR: Wait a second, the Dar Al Hijrah Islamic Center. Welcome. Welcome. I feel extremely blessed to have you here today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You get points just for saying those names all correctly. I mean, that`s pretty good.
BEHAR: I`m sorry, I screwed yours up a little bit, but it`s a little hard for me.
ABDUL-MALIK: It`s OK. The priest can absolve you.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: The priest can absolve me. Right, that`s right.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: OK, now, we looked up the word evil in the dictionary, and it says -- it describes evil as morally reprehensible, sinful and wicked. So, Rabbi, let me start with you. Do you think bin Laden is evil or was?
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, AUTHOR, "RENEWAL": Look, he wasn`t born evil, but if he`s not evil, it has no meaning.
Evil is something that where a habit becomes second nature. If you spend your life devoted to acts of terrorism and killing innocents, you erase the countenance of God from your presence. You have no -- there is no godly spark. You`re no longer our human brother. That`s what justifies killing. There are three things in life --
BEHAR: I have to stop you. Human? I think he`s still human. Unfortunately, that is part of the group of humanity that we have people like him and Hitler and the rest of them. They`re human.
BOTEACH: He cut himself off from the human family by dedicating his life to terminating human life. I mean, we had no choice -- given that there`s three things in life, Joy. You have the good, the bad and the necessary. Killing is never good. It`s almost always bad, but it is sometimes necessary. This was absolutely necessary, because we were confronted with an evil that would have taken more lives, more innocent lives.
BEHAR: OK. Now, you disagree I know, because I heard about your thing with Bill O`Reilly. You said he was not evil, his actions were evil.
FATHER EDWARD BECK, RELIGION CONTRIBUTOR, ABC NEWS: Yes. I don`t think we can know the heart and mind of somebody. You really can`t know the motivation of somebody. So I think evil stems from--
BEHAR: Why not? I think you can.
BECK: How?
BEHAR: Well, we know what he wanted. He wanted to kill Americans. That`s his motivation.
BECK: But do you know why he wanted to do it? If he comes from an evil intent of destruction because he simply wants to perpetuate evil, that`s different from, he would tell you, it`s according to his religious beliefs as a good Muslim, that this is what he`s commanded to do as a Muslim. Now we would disagree with that, that`s crazy.
BEHAR: But you can rationalize anything and still be evil.
BECK: But his actions are evil. Only God can judge the inner heart and soul of somebody. Only God sees the true motivation. You can`t see that. So how can you deem him as a person evil? All people are created in goodness and in love.
BEHAR: Really?
BECK: I believe that.
BEHAR: What about the devil?
BECK: We`re talking about people now. OK? We`re talking about people.
BEHAR: All right. Imam, let me ask you something. Hitler killed 10 million people and Stalin killed 50 million people. That`s a fact. Can you say if someone`s evil based on the number of people that he`s killed?
ABDUL-MALIK: I think you can be evil and kill one person. I don`t think that the moral equivalency argument that a person is more evil if he kills more people. In Islam, we have a saying from the Prophet Mohammed, that (speaking Arabic), every deed is based on its intentionality.
BEHAR: That`s what he`s saying, the motive.
ABDUL-MALIK: So one has to identify, what is motivating, what is driving the person. The actions themselves may be completely reprehensible. To us, we`re looking and seeing the killing of Osama bin Laden as legitimate, while there are other people are saying that killing is evil. How can you just go and in the process, there`s collateral damage, relatives are killed and so on.
BEHAR: You mean, the evil of killing him himself?
ABDUL-MALIK: Indeed. While --
BEHAR: Well, that`s to stop him from anymore.
ABDUL-MALIK: Again, but I`m saying as we look at it, we don`t see that act as evil, although it is killing.
BOTEACH: The problem with the conversation now is here we are, three representatives of great world faiths, but we`re speaking about moral relativism. This isn`t about whether I consider him evil or someone in Pakistan disagrees with me. It`s about a universal code of morality. Murder is wrong. This was a murderer in cold blood.
ABDUL-MALIK: Indeed.
BOTEACH: And his intentions don`t matter. I don`t care why he did it.
BECK: That`s a (inaudible) evaluation.
BOTEACH: He could have -- it`s a Ten Commandments evaluation, to which we all subscribe. And the fact is, if he had issues, if he didn`t like Americans, if he didn`t like Israelis or Jews, then--
(CROSSTALK)
ABDUL-MALIK: And many Muslims.
BOTEACH: I don`t care why he did it, his intention is meaningless to me. Imam Johari is a real Muslim. Osama bin Laden was a fraud, a charlatan and a fake.
ABDUL-MALIK: I would agree with that.
BEHAR: He agrees with that.
BECK: But that does not make him evil.
ABDUL-MALIK: Indeed.
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: When you devote your life to evil action, you become inseparable from those actions. You become what you do.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDUL-MALIK: Rabbi, let me give you another one. Because I believe that this characterization of people as all one thing and all something else is an oversimplification.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course it is.
ABDUL-MALIK: That probably Osama bin Laden was probably kind to some people. Hitler probably had friends.
BEHAR: Loved his dogs.
(CROSSTALK)
BECK: It`s not to justify that, however. It is not to justify.
ABDUL-MALIK: But there is something else inside that is sick and that is diseased and that is wrong, and it has to be stopped.
BEHAR: OK. So do you think that he should have been captured and not killed? What do you think?
BECK: Yes, I do. I don`t think anybody has a right to kill anybody else, no matter what. All life is sacred.
BEHAR: What about when the United States goes to war with another country? We kill people, there are collateral damages there. Is that also evil?
BECK: Sometimes a necessary evil. Sometimes a necessary evil.
BEHAR: Oh, I see. It depends on where you`re sitting, I guess.
BECK: I think so.
BOTEACH: There`s a difference between murder and killing. Murder is cold blood, and killing is a self-defense. And we have to kill sometimes in self-defense. What we should not do is celebrate it. I mean, the celebrations were unseemly--
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: And you have to--
ABDUL-MALIK: On both sides. On 9/11--
BEHAR: They celebrated.
ABDUL-MALIK: When people were celebrating, it was out of some infantile reaction, and now we`re having that infantile reaction.
BEHAR: But we think of ourselves as better than that.
ABDUL-MALIK: Of course.
BEHAR: And then we just -- a lot of people did (inaudible)--
BOTEACH: But isn`t the purpose of religion primarily to tell us that there is good and there is bad? And I feel in this conversation we`re saying --
(CROSSTALK)
BECK: We can talk about good and bad --
BEHAR: OK. Let me move on a little bit, because a new poll shows that 61 percent of Americans think bin Laden is in hell. Only 5 percent of the American people polled in one poll I read think that there is no hell. 95 percent of the people in this country think there is a hell.
BOTEACH: Well, Jews have never believed in hell, so no doubt when bin Laden gets there, he`ll say, I`m a Jew now.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Why don`t people want to believe that there`s no hell? Is it because then there`s no retribution for these evil people?
BOTEACH: I don`t think we`re supposed to live life based on reward and punishment, as we do the right because we`re going to benefit or because we`re going to be -- that`s how children live life. We`re supposed to do the right because it`s right. We`re supposed to get some deep satisfaction that our lives have moral purpose.
Osama bin Laden was a disgrace to his faith.
BEHAR: But that`s not exactly a Catholic point of view. I was raised a Catholic.
BECK: Right.
BEHAR: You do it also because you don`t want to offend God, but you also don`t want to go to hell. That was told to me.
BOTEACH: But that`s not religion, that`s self-preservation.
(CROSSTALK)
BECK: -- hell is, though. You probably were taught it was the burning flames, you`re going to suffer forever in eternity.
BEHAR: No, it`s being in the Chico`s (ph) dressing room, and everything is too small for me. That`s hell.
BECK: But this is important -- this is important because we anthropomorphize hell. We look at it through human eyes. What`s the worst thing we can imagine?
ABDUL-MALIK: Fire.
BECK: Burning forever.
ABDUL-MALIK: Indeed.
BECK: But what is hell, really?
BEHAR: But that was Dante came up with that.
BECK: But what do you think hell is?
BEHAR: That was an idea that an artist came up with.
BECK: What is it if not that, though?
BEHAR: The teaching is that it`s the lack of the presence of God.
BECK: Right. And you turn away from the love of God for eternity, totally rejecting it because you don`t want it, you don`t accept it. That`s what hell is.
BEHAR: But I don`t think that`s good enough for some people.
BOTEACH: I think there`s a hell of fire and there is a hell of ice. Hell of fire is where we had passions for the wrong things. Hell of ice is where there`s no love in our life. And I think Osama bin Laden`s entire life was really hell, and it`s just another dimension of hell that he`s in now.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDUL-MALIK: But I think -- but in Islamic perspective, on this heaven-hell equation, Muslims do believe that there is going to be first a day of judgment, and that people will either be rewarded from their deeds and intentions with paradise forever, or hell, and that there will be some people who will be removed from hell eventually. But a person whose destiny is the hellfire, while they`re in the grave, they are being punished.
BECK: I guess that means bin Laden doesn`t get his virgins.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What about the virgins? I want to ask you about that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m sure you do.
BEHAR: Are there any virgins he`s going to be seeing? Is anyone ever going to see these virgins? They`re certainly not seeing them on this planet.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: There are hardly any left. But what about that? Is that part of the faith or did they make that up?
ABDUL-MALIK: Let me start at the beginning. I think that from what I can see of the actions and the expressions of an Osama bin Laden or the al Qaeda ilk, they`re going to be rudely awakened upon entering the grave. I can`t decide where they`re going, but from the things that are outward, it looks like it`s going to be a warm day for some al Qaeda.
BEHAR: I believe -- truthfully I believe that on this planet, there is hell for some people. There is hell for some people.
BOTEACH: There`s no greater sin, beyond taking life, of course, which is the cardinal sin. The second greatest sin is to disgrace your faith, it`s to be the worst possible ambassador for what you represent.
Islam is a great world religion, and yet bin Laden has given it such a horrible name, and men of God like this imam suffer because of him. So his punishment is unspeakable. It`s immeasurable. And it`s time for our Muslim brothers and sisters to spit him out completely and utterly, to say that he is an abomination to Islam.
(CROSSTALK)
BECK: Except that I don`t think we can say whether or not he`s in hell. I don`t think we know.
BEHAR: No, we don`t know where he is.
BECK: God decides that.
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: I`m prepared to say it. I mean, again, religion has to make some --
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: You know what? We have teachings from God that I study, and if religion can`t speak those teachings, then this game we`re playing that we have no right to say anything, then let`s shut the darn thing down. Let`s just close the churches and synagogues down.
(CROSSTALK)
BECK: But again, if his motivation was not for evil from his perspective, why would God judge -- why would God judge someone who was raised in a tradition, lived it the way he believed it, and died thinking he was a God-fearing man, why would God condemn that person to hell in eternity?
(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: If I needed a kidney transplant--
ABDUL-MALIK: Father, I have one more--
BOTEACH: -- (inaudible) go into a hospital where the guy has his name on the wall because he just wanted to be (inaudible) at a cocktail party? Even if he gave it for the worst possible reason, because of him I have a kidney. I don`t care about bin Laden`s motivation.
(CROSSTALK)
ABDUL-MALIK: I really have to be clear, that there is a distinction between us. I mean, this guy clearly has evil actions, he clearly does not represent the religion of Islam. But I don`t want to be in the place to say who`s going to heaven and who`s going to hell, although I believe in it.
BOTEACH: May God strike me down, I`ll say it, he`s in hell.
BEHAR: I`ll say it too. He`s in hell.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Thanks, everybody.
ABDUL-MALIK: Thank you very much.
BEHAR: We`ll be back in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Marlo Thomas has spent almost her entire life in show business. She also had the pleasure of growing up around many, many funny people, and she wrote a book about that experience, the best-selling "Growing Up Laughing." And she`s here today to talk some more with me.
MARLO THOMAS, AUTHOR: I`m glad.
BEHAR: Yes, it`s --
(CROSSTALK)
THOMAS: It`s in paperback.
BEHAR: Yes, this is the paperback coming out. And before we get to all of the stuff in the book, we`ve been talking about Osama bin Laden. This is the topic of the week.
THOMAS: Right.
BEHAR: And today, among a lot of information that we`re getting, is the fact that President Obama is not going to release the photograph of the dead Osama bin Laden. What do you make of that? What do you think of that?
THOMAS: I could live without that. But what bothered me about it was there was a picture, the picture of him with sort of bullet holes and blood around him, and it was right next to the picture of what we know he looks like. And I thought wow, they really did get him, that was a pretty neat hit, too, and it turns out it was just a Photoshopped picture.
BEHAR: I know. That was a hoax.
THOMAS: So now I won`t believe anything anyway. No matter what they show me, I am not going to believe it. And I think that`s unfortunate, that we`ve gotten to a point where you don`t know what you`re seeing anymore.
BEHAR: Well, that`s the Internet. That`s the Internet. And also the birthers and the Donald Trumps of the world, who insist on questioning every little thing he does, and where he was born and everything else.
THOMAS: You were funny this morning on "The View," you said you wanted to see the death certificate.
BEHAR: I did. I want to see it.
(LAUGHTER)
THOMAS: That was funny.
BEHAR: So, you know, you`re running TheHuffingtonPost blog, which I read just a little while ago, about the take your daughters to work program. And you say that you were sort of like, I don`t know, what`s the word. Disappointed when it became take your daughters and your sons to work.
THOMAS: Right. Well, because --
BEHAR: Which happened when?
THOMAS: In 2003. We founded it at the Miss Foundation in 1993. So for ten years, it was take our daughters to work.
Look, I love boys, obviously, I married one.
BEHAR: Of course.
(CROSSTALK)
THOMAS: And Phil has four sons that are great, and grandsons, and I love them all.
The problem was, is the girls are the ones that had the problem. The girls were the ones that were afraid to go to the office. The girls were - - they had this wonderful study that Carol Gilligan (ph) did at Harvard saying that girls really were afraid of the marketplace, and that at 11 years old, they stopped raising their hands and they kind of went underground. And so that`s why we created take our daughters to work. So putting the sons into that, it wasn`t the program they needed.
But, you know, and I just kind of had to get it off my chest, to say, you know, why do we have to include everybody in everything when somebody has something that they need that other people don`t need?
BEHAR: Well, you know, it`s a fact, we looked it up, that 60 percent of all bachelor degrees now go to girls, to women.
THOMAS: Yes.
BEHAR: So the tide has changed a little in the favor of women.
THOMAS: It has. But they don`t get anywhere with them. Women are still stuck in middle management. What are there, eight women running Fortune 500 companies? You know, it isn`t like the doors opened at the colleges and now the girls have marched right in and taken over.
BEHAR: That`s true.
THOMAS: There`s still this hesitancy. And a lot of people say -- and a lot of people that wrote me on my blog said, well, it`s women`s own fault, you know, they don`t ask for a raise as easily as men do. And they don`t.
BEHAR: Why?
THOMAS: Because there`s a timidity. They don`t feel entitled to it. That`s something that we`re doing in our culture to girls. Or -- there`s no reason why. I mean, you ask for a raise.
BEHAR: I was never very assertive as a young person. It took me -- that`s why it took me almost until I was 40 to even come into the business.
THOMAS: Well, there, you see.
BEHAR: Yes. I understand what you`re saying, yes.
THOMAS: And exactly -- and that study showed that girls at 11 years old go underground, and sometimes they don`t come out until they`re 50. Five-oh. So that was why the program was created.
BEHAR: Yeah, and I can see the point.
THOMAS: But now I`m glad that the boys are in.
BEHAR: Well, whatever, I have a new grandson so I want to drag him around with me as soon as he`s capable.
THOMAS: Oh, that`s great. That`s great.
BEHAR: Yeah. You know, maybe he`ll be the next--
THOMAS: He can sit right here.
BEHAR: -- the next Barbara Walters.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Now, you know, the Republicans are trying to defund Planned Parenthood. Now, why would they want to do that?
THOMAS: I don`t know. Because we all know what the teenage pregnancies, I mean, even we have a television show now for teenage moms. I would think we`d all be very, very concerned about kids who are not protected.
BEHAR: Well, their argument is that Planned Parenthood is also -- performs abortions. But we all know that the Hyde Amendment prevents any federal funding to go to abortions. So they do it with private funding. But they still don`t like the idea that they`re doing that, so they want to punish them. That`s what I think.
THOMAS: Well, I think there`s this fear that if you talk to children about sex or teenagers or if you give them contraceptives, that`s a license to run out and have sex with everybody. But you do tell your children -- you know, I remember when we were kids, my father would say to us, I don`t want you to drink. And I don`t want you to drink and drive. But if you get into that situation, call me, I`ll come get you. So you can`t just ignore the fact that it might happen. So there`s --
BEHAR: Not to mention that drinking and driving leads to pregnancy.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: So on your website, I see women asking, where are the great feminist marches -- marches of old? Where are they? There`s so much misery in this country right now. People are so angry about so many things. Where is the outcry?
THOMAS: It`s on the web. They don`t have to take to the streets anymore.
BEHAR: What good is that if it`s on the web?
THOMAS: Because they`re talking to each other. It`s all about community, talking to each other and demonstrating. So I think that what used to be in the streets is really on the web.
BEHAR: I saw them march down the Lower East Side on Sunday, all immigrants talking about immigration policies, and they were angry, and they had music, and it was very effective. On the web, it`s like, meh.
THOMAS: It`s very effective but it`s only in one little area. I mean, I`m all for marching. I`ve marched almost all my life for everything--
BEHAR: Yes.
THOMAS: But I think that is what`s happening. That`s where people are going now to be heard and to have a communication. I mean, it`s great if people go to the streets to be happy about something or to be against something. I like to be in a community like that.
BEHAR: Yes. I know.
THOMAS: I really do.
BEHAR: And I guess the Internet leads to voting, also. OK. We`ll have more with Marlo Thomas in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Marlo Thomas. You know, the book "Growing Up Laughing" is a terrific read, by the way. I recommend it to anybody who`s out there wants to have a -- you know, it`s interesting and it`s funny.
You know, and I wonder what you think about the fact that comics seem to be under fire these days. Gilbert Gottfried recently got into trouble, I don`t know if you know about this.
THOMAS: No.
BEHAR: The Japanese tsunami happened, and he wrote these inappropriate jokes on his Twitter page, and he got fired from his Aflac job. You know, he was the Aflac duck.
THOMAS: Oh, right.
BEHAR: And they fired him. And his answer was, you know, those were not -- they said his comments were inappropriate, and his answer is those were not comments, those were jokes.
THOMAS: I didn`t see them, so I don`t know if they were not--
BEHAR: Oh, yes, they were bad.
THOMAS: They were?
BEHAR: Yes, they were bad jokes, but they were jokes.
THOMAS: Right.
BEHAR: They were jokes. And people are saying, how could you do that, the Japanese were in such turmoil and pain. And his answer to that is they were not reading my tweets.
THOMAS: Well, there is another -- some jokes do need time. You know, there`s all kinds of humor and some humor does need some space. I don`t think we can make fun of something right when it`s happening if there`s a sensitivity to other people.
BEHAR: But--
THOMAS: Some does need time.
BEHAR: Don`t you ever hear, you know, like when there`s major tragedy, a plane crash or something, immediately Wall Street starts with the negative, nasty jokes against the situation. I see that all the time. I don`t even want to quote them, because they`re horrible.
THOMAS: I can`t even imagine that Wall Street would be funny so I wouldn`t be interested in their jokes.
BEHAR: Well, they`re not being funny, they`re just telling jokes.
THOMAS: Oh, I see.
BEHAR: A little different. But isn`t it a release from the tension of the tragedy?
THOMAS: For me it is, but not everybody feels that way. I mean, some people have to have some distance, and that`s really the mark of a great comedian.
BEHAR: The distance (ph)?
THOMAS: And the timing.
BEHAR: Timing.
THOMAS: To know when. When is it OK to make the joke? You know, I think I put this in my book. When my father died, my mother was destroyed. For several months, she just cried all the time, it was awful. And we were carrying her around like she was, you know, a little piece of glass. We didn`t know what do with her, she was so fragile. Anyway, one day we`re having lunch at the Hillcrest Country Club, and George Burns walked into the restaurant, and he walked right over to my mother and he said, "hey, Rosie, I hear you`re single again."
(LAUGHTER)
THOMAS: And my whole family went, oh my God, we didn`t know what to do. And my mother threw her head back and roared. Because just enough time had gone by, he could get away with that joke.
BEHAR: Leave it to George Burns.
THOMAS: You know, but if he had done that, like the day of the funeral, that wouldn`t have been so funny.
BEHAR: Yeah.
THOMAS: Some jokes need a little distance.
BEHAR: A little time. OK. Thanks so much for joining me, Marlo. Yet again, always a pleasure. Marlo`s book, "Growing Up Laughing," is in paperback now.
Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
