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Nancy Grace
Anthony Defense May Claim Parental Abuse
Aired May 12, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the search for a 2-year- old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash!
With the murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way, bombshell tonight. Tot mom`s defense revealed. True or not, tot mom plans to claim she was sexually molested as a child. Now, how that`s relevant to 2-year- old Caylee`s murder, nobody knows. Tot mom`s likely targets, father George Anthony and brother Lee Anthony.
And in the last hours, we learn jurors may be asked to actually smell the stench of death from the trunk of tot mom`s car. As little Caylee`s remains described in court, jurors turn away in disgust, but tot mom sits stonefaced. And then later, she breaks into laughter several times in front of the jury. This as we learn the newest member of tot mom`s defense team is married to a serial killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here stands a young woman, standing trial for her life.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I`m trying to help them and they`re not letting me help them.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Allegedly, I told my client she`s acting like a 2-year-old.
CASEY ANTHONY: Getting physical? Yes. Getting physical right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a public courtroom.
CASEY ANTHONY: They got all of their information from me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You watch Headline News?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy Grace?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, ma`am.
CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) people are only getting their information from the Nancy Graces.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about the Nancy Grace entertainment show?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s too late.
CASEY ANTHONY: Watch that episode of NANCY GRACE.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nancy Grace.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think she`s on too late.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: We`re falling apart.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: Shut up! Shut up!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Parents in an impossible position.
CINDY ANTHONY: We are helpless.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What comes out in trial may be even more devastating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight, tot mom`s defense revealed. True or not, tot mom plans to claim she was sexually molested as a child. How that`s relevant to 2-year-old Caylee`s murder, nobody knows.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey Marie Anthony.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m sorry for what I did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Her lack of maturity, her lack of impulse control, history of sexual abuse.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I woke up night after night with my sports bra lifted up over my chest."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mother and father failed to protect her as a child.
CINDY ANTHONY: I want to bring her in. I want to press charges.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) parental misconduct.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Casey still resents my wife the day that our granddaughter was born...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was used as a decoy or pawn by her parents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Skeletal remains were recovered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just found a human skull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony must also be aware of this at the jail. They might be taking her away from the television.
CASEY ANTHONY: People have been lying to you guys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) the child`s remains tossed away.
GEORGE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever had anything so bad happen to you...
CASEY ANTHONY: I was mad.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that you`ve told no one about?
CASEY ANTHONY: You`re not helping me help myself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight down to the courthouse there in Clearwater, Florida, as we plow through more jury selection. The trial of Casey Anthony, tot mom in the murder of her child 2-year-old Caylee, is under way. Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session," what happened? How far did we get today?
JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Nancy, five jurors have gone before the court. Of that, one has been excused, four are proceeding to the final selection. But Nancy, I want to tell you, attorneys just left the courthouse tonight, and they were encircled by sheriff`s deputies as they left the building. All walked individually to their cars. But it`s been a long day today. And during that death penalty questioning is when we heard Anne Finnell (ph) talk about sexual abuse.
GRACE: Now, I understand you`re saying that five jurors got through today. But to you, Natisha Lance. When we say five jurors, is this the final questioning of those jurors before the attorneys start striking them on or off the jury, or are they coming back for another round of questioning?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: No, these jurors will be coming back for another round of questioning on Saturday. And Nancy, the judge had intended to get through 37 jurors today, but only got through 5. It took three hours to get through just the first juror this morning.
GRACE: Why?
LANCE: And tomorrow, the other -- there was a lot of questioning that was going on on both sides. But the judge did say he wants to limit the time for both sides, so he did ask both sides how long they anticipate it will take. Both sides said it will take 30 minutes each. So tomorrow...
GRACE: Yes, well...
LANCE: ... we`ll probably see something different...
GRACE: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no! No! Unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, Ray Giudice, defense attorney, Atlanta, Mark Nejame, former attorney for George and Cindy Anthony, renowned defense attorney joining us out of Orlando.
Come on, Ray. As much as the lawyers say, Yes, yes, yes, yes, we`ll hurry, they`re not going to hurry. They`re going to do the same thing tomorrow they did today unless the judge really puts their feet to the fire. They`re not going to speed up. And they really -- under the law, they`re not going to have to because it`s a death penalty case.
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right, and...
GRACE: And the judge doesn`t want to push them too far or he`ll get reversed.
GIUDICE: And from the defense side, nothing would be better for the appellate record than that judge hassling them, rushing them, cutting them short, not letting them pursue a line of legitimate questioning. As far as the defense is concerned...
(CROSSTALK)
GIUDICE: ... defense.
GRACE: Right there, there`s a problem. Mark Nejame, a lot of the questions being asked by the defense is not legitimate at this phase. For instance, they`re putting it out there what their defense is going to be at the penalty phase. We haven`t even gotten a conviction yet, and they`re saying, Could you consider whether tot mom was sexually molested as a child? You cannot ask fact-specific questions on voir dire, jury selection.
MARK NEJAME, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Well, remember this is a state case, not a federal case. There`s a lot more latitude given in state cases than are in federal jury selection. That`s just the way it is. And additionally, you`ve got a situation where they are signaling, which they`ve been doing all along through this case, of what their defense is going to be by the questions they`re asking.
GRACE: What about it, Renee? Is there going to be a speeded-up process tomorrow?
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Not if they can help it, Nancy. And what you`re doing now is you`re courting the jury. You`re trying to put things in their mind and you`re going to try to influence them because after it`s over, there`s no more interaction between the lawyers and the jurors.
GRACE: To Jean Casarez, joining us there at the courthouse in Clearwater. Jean...
(CROSSTALK)
CASAREZ: I`m sorry. The last thing the judge said before it was over, he said, I cannot and I will not limit your time on questions for death penalty or pretrial publicity. But I will limit the scope. General questions, yes, I`m going to limit it. How much do you want? Prosecution said 15 minutes, defense 30.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Candice in Georgia. Hi, Candice.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am. I want to know, as far as the prosecution -- I`m sorry, prosecution`s case on first degree murder, what is going to happen when the defense -- well, when and if they go for the accidental death theory?
GRACE: Well, what do you mean, what`s going to happen?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What will happen as far as the charges, I mean, as far as the death penalty. Will they be able to -- I mean, will she be acquitted if they cannot charge on that first degree, or will they go for a lesser charge?
GRACE: OK. I think -- hold on, Candice in Georgia. I think what you`re asking is, if tot mom advances a theory of accidental death, will that change the jury charges?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, ma`am.
GRACE: No, it will not change the jury charges. That is just a defense the defense may throw out or may not throw out, and that will not change the state`s theory of the case. They are going forward with murder one. Now, the judge may allow the jury to hear a charge on accidental death, if that is the defense. But that will not change the state`s theory of murder one.
I want to go to Ellie Jostad. Ellie, what can you tell me about the newest member of the defense team. She`s married to a serial killer?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right. This woman`s name is Rosalie Bolin. She is a mitigation specialist for the defense team. She`s worked on countless cases, criminal cases, capital cases. She`s married to a guy named Oscar Ray Bolin. She actually was previously married, divorced her other husband, married this guy while he was in jail in the late `90s, and still goes and visits him behind bars. And his...
GRACE: Well, isn`t it true, Ellie, that she actually lost her job at the public defender`s office?
JOSTAD: Right.
GRACE: She`s not a lawyer. What she is, is a mitigation specialist. Is that correct?
JOSTAD: That is correct.
GRACE: She lost that job because of her involvement. She left her husband for a serial killer. And if I recall Ray Bolin`s case, he murdered three young women, a 26-year-old, a 25-year-old and a high schooler.
JOSTAD: Right. A 17-year-old, that`s right, Nancy. He abducted her from a shopping center parking lot, killed her, discarded her body. Yes, you`re right, Nancy. She is -- was working for the Duval (ph) County defender`s office -- public defender`s office. Apparently, once they caught wind of her private life and the publicity around it, they said they needed -- that was a distraction from her serious job as a mitigation specialist, and they let her go.
GRACE: Back to Natisha Lance, joining us from Orlando. I want to get back to what happened in court today. You know what? If tot mom wants to bring on a defense member that is married to a serial killer, you know what? That`s on her. What I want to hear about is what went down in the courtroom today. Tell me, Natisha.
LANCE: Well, Nancy, Anne Finnell (ph), one of the attorneys for the defense side, she went up today and she was questioning about the death penalty portion. Now, during this time when she was questioning, she was starting to ask questions about the mitigating factors. Now, when the jury left the courtroom she, revealed these mitigators to the judge. Some of those mitigators included Casey Anthony possibly was a victim of sexual abuse, emotional abuse. Also, she had poor coping skills. Her parents failed to protect her as a child.
GRACE: Poor coping skills? Poor coping skills?
LANCE: Yes.
GRACE: Hold on. Let`s hear some sound about tot mom claiming she was sexually molested. She`s pointing the finger at nobody other than George Anthony and Lee Anthony. What about it, Jean Casarez?
CASAREZ: Well, you know, the thing that came into my mind is George and Cindy Anthony are going to sit in that trial. We litigated it through -- they did through argument last week, so they are going to hear. If there are allegations, they will hear. They will be witnesses. They will be on the stand. They could be asked the question themselves.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "Over the past few months, I have been having really vivid dreams, and it`s obvious that they are dreams of things that have already happened. I think my dad used to do the same thing to me, but when I was much younger."
"I can see him in my room exactly the way it was when I was in elementary school, and everything gets fuzzy. But I wake up feeling both sore and sick to my stomach, the way I used to feel growing up. That`s part of the reason I haven`t been sleeping much or very well lately. Maybe that`s part of the reason why I have so much anxiety with my parents."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
JESSE GRUND, CASEY`S EX-FIANCE: September 2005, Casey told me that she didn`t feel comfortable with Lee being around Caylee. When I asked why, she said that recently -- she wouldn`t expand upon recently. I assumed it was before Caylee was born -- Casey and Lee were at the house alone together and Casey -- and Lee attempted to have sex with her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you get an indication what "attempted to have sex" meant?
GRUND: There was never any explanation. My impression was that somehow, he was trying to pressure her into it somehow. That was my impression from what she was saying. I didn`t have anything else concrete on it, and it was so vile and disgusting to me that I didn`t really want to go any further into it than what she was telling me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I woke up night after night with my sports bra lifted over my chest. Or if I had on a regular bra, it would be unhooked. Even if I was doing karate in my sleep, that wouldn`t have happened. I woke up many times to a flashlight in my face, and he would be sitting on the floor in the front of my bed, staring at me. This went on for over three years before I finally stood up to Lee and I told him if he ever came in my room again, I`d kill him."
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Tot mom`s defense revealed. The jurors are being questioned by the defense as to whether they would consider if tot mom had been sexually molested as a child -- a lot of blaming her parents, blaming her family in this scenario.
We are taking your calls, but back out to Jean Casarez, joining us from the Clearwater courthouse. Jean, what else happened in court? What was tot mom`s demeanor today?
CASAREZ: Very different -- very stoic, very serious, feeling well today, feeling much better than yesterday. And my thought was, you know, what had happened between yesterday and today to be so much better? But it was a new day.
GRACE: I see that she`s still -- you know, she can`t stop -- let me go out to Aaron Brehove, body language expert, author of "Knack Body Language," and a senior instructor at Body Language Institute, joining us from Washington. Aaron, I know that you have observed and studied reels of tot mom`s behavior in court. What do you see?
I`m sorry, I can`t hear you. Can you start over?
AARON BREHOVE, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: We see her coming into this courtroom and we see her acting in a very different demeanor than she has been in the past. Her demeanor has been very congruent. It`s been very average. But she comes in very anxious, very nervous. She has her thumb inside of her fist. It`s a very infantile pose. It`s a calming gesture. So she`s very nervous coming in here, but we would kind of expect that.
The biggest thing that I notice is the way she`s dressed and how she`s wearing her hair. It`s very different from how she typically does in all those party photos. It`s very different and it`s very different than she - - the clothes she used to wear.
GRACE: Now, what about the incessant cleaning of the table, arranging the papers, arranging her hair? It`s all day long I watch it. All day she`s fixing her hair.
BREHOVE: Well, I mean, it definitely -- she has a different haircut. She`s going to be touching it a little bit. But this is a self-touch gesture. If you have anxiety, she may be helping to quell that anxiety. But it`s also really going into -- she`s primping herself constantly, and that`s going into her vanity. She`s looking -- she cares about how people think she looks. And it`s a very odd thought that she really cares that much about how people think she looks when she`s on trial for murder. It`s a very odd thing for her to be doing.
GRACE: You know, one thing that I observed today, when the state was describing the way Caylee`s body was thrown out in the woods and left there, some of the jurors were visibly disgusted, just turned away. They hated to hear it. Tot mom sat there completely stoic, showed no emotion whatsoever. But then later, when a joke was made, she just laughed out loud. She laughed several times in front of the jury. What does that mean?
BREHOVE: It`s so odd. When you see emotions, you should see things come in pairs. It should be if she`s very sad, she`s going to be happy. We see these different emotions, we should see them throughout the entire time. But she`s stoic. When you talk about Caylee, there`s nothing. When we`re making jokes, she`s laughing and these emotion comes out?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You may have to make one of the most important decisions of your entire life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a lot of hard decisions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to make my decision on the actual information.
CASEY ANTHONY: Don`t even (EXPLETIVE DELETED) waste your time coming up here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) admonition not to read, watch or listen to news accounts of this case.
CASEY ANTHONY: It`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED). I just watched the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) news.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey, do you still think you`re an unfit mother?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a tough decision.
CASEY ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) more stuff thrown back in my face when this goes to trial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s excused.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Also, we learned today that jurors will be asked to smell -- may be asked to smell the stench of death in tot mom`s car trunk. What happened, Jean?
CASAREZ: You know, the prosecution can tip their hand, too. And some jurors were asked about that. The prosecutor said, We have four preserved cans of air from the trunk, and Doctor Vass (ph), he only used one. That`s their expert. So we`re thinking to let the jury smell the air from Casey Anthony`s trunk.
GRACE: What did jurors say?
CASAREZ: Well, the judge stopped the questioning at that point, but the judge is saying, Wait a minute. This is, like -- how can they smell the air in the trunk? They`re becoming witnesses in this trial. But if the prosecution can lay the foundation, it can come in.
GRACE: No, they absolutely can smell it if the state, as you said, Jean Casarez, can lay the foundation to prove that this is authentic, that this is the air from her trunk. There`s absolutely no reason that they cannot smell it.
I want to go to a special guest joining us tonight out of San Francisco. Greg Beratlis. He was a Scott Peterson juror and co-author of "We the Jury: Deciding the Fate of Scott Peterson." Greg, thank you for being with us.
GREG BERATLIS, SCOTT PETERSON JUROR: Thank you for having me.
GRACE: You know, Greg, you sat on a death penalty trial. When you`re hearing the defense talk about all the mitigating factors -- tot mom in this case may claim she was sexually molested, that she didn`t have a good upbringing -- how much would that affect you? Would you find that relevant to the murder of a 2-year-old child?
BERATLIS: I think it has some bearing. But as I`m paying -- or listening to this, I`m, like, Does that have -- how does that have anything to do with the child? I mean, the child did nothing to her that I can tell. She was abused by her family. Does that give her a right to, if she did, kill this person? I don`t believe so.
GRACE: Do you still think back on your sentence in the Scott Peterson case?
BERATLIS: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It continually happens.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The word duct tape comes to mind. Pink heart.
JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: Which cable news shows have you watched?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe the NANCY GRACE.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Because I sat with Jose, I watched that episode of NANCY GRACE.
BAEZ: And how often do you watch the NANCY GRACE entertainment show? Do you know that she did a show on this case for well over six months every night?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I remember those -- some of those, yes.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Mr. Baez, thank you for being with us.
BAEZ: The NANCY GRACE entertainment show.
Thank you for having me.
What we`re trying to do with the media is we`re to get them to concentrate not necessarily on Casey but on Caylee.
GRACE: It`s 8:32.40 and that`s the first time tonight, sir, that you have stated you are here to help find Caylee.
CHIEF JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, CIRCUIT JUDGE, ORANGE COUNTY: What do you recall about the NANCY GRACE show?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They would run pictures of the -- of the defendant. They described it as her partying days.
CASEY ANTHONY: And people that we`ve never met have more of an outlook on this than I do right now.
BAEZ: Did you see any news coverage of any cowboys in this case? Anybody that wears a cowboy hat? I see you are grinning.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I believe that NANCY GRACE show, too.
BAEZ: The NANCY GRACE entertainment show.
GRACE: Mr. Baez, thank you for being with us.
BAEZ: Thank you for having me.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Jean Casarez. Baez spent a lot of time talking about our show and basically denigrating the show. But did he mention he`s been on our show, on our program many times?
JEAN CASAREZ, LEGAL CORRESPONDENT, "IN SESSION": No, he was using it to see if people formed opinions, and there was a juror that said they watch your show, even the fallen soldier they watch every night.
They had an opinion but they said it could set it aside. They`ve moved on to the final panel.
GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Sherry in Illinois. Hi, Sherry.
SHERRY, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi, Nancy. It`s always an honor to speak with you.
GRACE: Likewise. What`s your question, dear?
SHERRY: I have a quick comment and a question.
GRACE: OK.
SHERRY: I watched the CourtTV today and you know how you are bringing up the issues that they brought up about the alleged abuse and psychological issues. And now, you know, it all makes sense to me now why she doesn`t want to speak to her parents because she wants to throw them under the bus.
But my question is, if the defense now opens that door about the abuse and that, will Casey have to testify or get up on the stand? Because she`s the only one that can explain those things.
GRACE: You know what, Sherry, you`re thinking very strategically. And think back, Sherry, because, remember, they first -- the defense first said they were going to bring in psychiatric or mental health care professional witnesses.
SHERRY: Right.
GRACE: And then they went, uh-oh. That means that the state is going to get to question our witnesses and get their notes.
SHERRY: Yes.
GRACE: Then they withdrew it all. And I`m just wondering if that was the tact they were going to take is to have her tell all this to a shrink and have the shrink then regurgitate it out at trial.
Unleash the lawyers. Mark Nejame, Orlando, Ray Giudice, Atlanta, Renee Rockwell, Atlanta.
What about it, Ray?
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: A criminal defendant can never be forced to take the witness stand in his or her trial. However the caller is right. Strategically, Casey would be the best person if there was any truth to this defense.
GRACE: Put him up.
GIUDICE: The defense will try to prove this charge --
GRACE: Put him up.
GIUDICE: They will try to prove it by putting Jesse Grund on --
GRACE: Ray. Ray. Ray. Ray.
GIUDICE: -- other witnesses. Yes.
GRACE: Ray, no. That would be hearsay. It can`t come in through anybody but tot mom or maybe a doctor. Maybe. But for --
GIUDICE: I disagree with that.
GRACE: She could tell 50 people that and they can`t get on the stand and talk about it.
GIUDICE: I`m going to disagree with that. I`m going to tell you that I think Jesse Grund can repeat what he just told under a present sense exception to the hearsay rule. I think it can come in.
GRACE: Put him back up.
Well, I think you are completely twisting up the present sense exception. What`s present sense about that? She`s trying to describe something that happened -- that she had claimed happened years before.
GIUDICE: The issue on -- the exceptions to hearsay are, is this statement made out of court subject -- not subject to the cross-examination of the declarant, the person who made the statement, is it credible? Does it have veracity?
If Grund says I believed her, it was an excited utterance, it came right out, she spoke with emotion and passion, I think you can get it in.
GRACE: You said present sense. You did not say excited utterance.
GIUDICE: I think you can get it under both. There are many exceptions under the federal rules.
GRACE: So now you`re switching. OK.
GIUDICE: There are -- there are 26 statutory exceptions under the federal rules.
GRACE: Federal rules. We`re in state court.
GIUDICE: And Florida has adopted the federal rules, that is.
GRACE: Yes, they have.
GIUDICE: There are many -- and there are common law exceptions. Now we lawyers can disagree but the judge will rule and that will be how it will work. But I think they`re going to try.
GRACE: What about it, Mark?
MARK NEJAME, FORMER ATTORNEY GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Talking to me? It`s not excited utterance. She`s having a conversation. There`s nothing excited utterance --
GRACE: No. She was not excited at all.
NEJAME: Yes. But the fact of the matter is, is that this is just part of what`s being laid out. I`ve been saying all along she`s going to take the stand. There`s no other way to explain the lies. And it was really ironic, as the lady from yesterday who was on the jury panel.
That was a person who`s allegedly having a confrontation with George in the front lawn. Their theory of defense is going to be that she was afraid to go to the family and she`s going to make up this story but that`s going to be the defense. Watch and see. It`s happening right -- it`s unfolding as you see it.
GRACE: She`s afraid to do what?
NEJAME: She`s afraid to go ahead and come to the family and explain the accidental death which is what their defense is going to be.
GRACE: And what do you make of this, Mark? You were the attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. Yesterday we hear they are considering legal action if anyone suggests that he had anything to do with the murder or molestation.
How do you think George is going to take yet another attack on him, this time claiming he sexually molested tot mom? Nobody believes that.
NEJAME: Of course not. It`s horrible. But the fact of the matter is people have been following the case know that. A jury who supposedly has been pristine and clear -- excuse me, not been following this, are not going to hear all those things.
The fact of the matter is she`s going to be making up a lie. She`s going to be claiming that this death was accidental and that`s why she created this web of lies. This web of deceit for all this time. That`s her best defense and it`s where they`re going with this.
GRACE: You know, Renee --
NEJAME: Follow the bread crumbs. That`s where they`re leading.
GRACE: Renee, I agree with Nejame. I think that may be what`s going to happen here. They`re going to have George fall on a sword. But I`m not so sure that George Anthony is going to go along with it. For a long time I thought, yes, he`ll take the rap about this or that or let them blame him. I don`t necessarily agree with it but let them do it.
But I don`t know if he is going to go along with her claiming that he molested her in order to save her from the death penalty. I just don`t --
RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, that is --
GRACE: I mean, how much more does one man have to take? His granddaughter who was the love of his life has been murdered. His daughter is on trial for doing it. And now she`s claiming -- then all the smear that he had this affair which didn`t turn out to be true and now he`s going to be accused of molesting her?
ROCKWELL: And you are asking how is it going to come in? I can tell you what could happen. What if they put him --
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: OK. Hold on. Here comes a big fiction novel. I`m ready.
ROCKWELL: They put him on the stand and say, isn`t it true you did this, isn`t it true that you did that, isn`t it true you went in her room? He can say no, no, and just get there and squirm and go along with all the nos. That`s how --
GRACE: George Anthony is not going to squirm. I can tell you that much right now.
ROCKWELL: That`s how it comes in other than putting her on the stand. But that`s the horse before the cart.
Nancy, none of that comes in until a penalty phase.
GRACE: Penalty case. But I can tell you one thing. You can mark my word on this, Rockwell.
George Anthony is not going to squirm about anything. I mean, look at him. We`ve been studying him. No, no, he might -- he may cry. He may be upset. But he is not going to squirm. That man has already been through more than anybody would ever imagine.
To Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, author of "Dealbreakers."
Bethany, weigh in on all this.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, what I think Casey Anthony is doing in saying that she was molested as a child, she`s doing something called malingering. Malingering is when you make up a fictitious illness or syndrome, i.e., I was molested as a child.
You make up that syndrome in order to get out of some dreaded responsibility, like the death penalty. It`s like someone saying, oh, I`m sorry I can`t serve in the military. I`ve got brain cancer. And then, guess what? You find out the person does not have brain cancer.
When they see George Anthony, as you pointed out, he is stoic. He is strong. He is a former law enforcement agency. He is without guile or deceit. They see that man sitting on the witness stand, they are going to realize what kind of a daughter he has.
GRACE: To Sandy Marks, jury consultant joining us out of Plantation.
Sandy, do you believe that some of the jurors may actually be insulted to suggest that this should somehow make a difference, start claiming she was sexually molested as a child? That that`s going to give her a free pass for murdering her daughter?
SANDY MARKS, JURY CONSULTANT: Well, I don`t know if anybody says she`s going to get a free pass. And let`s remember, the first thing that has to be proven is whether or not she actually committed the crime before we even get into the mitigation segment of this trial.
And in the meantime, you know, they`re throwing out a lot of stuff and they`re trying to see what people`s attitudes are towards these various different issues. So I think we need to kind of step back for a moment here and see where this all goes. We`re still going to be doing this for the next week or at least the next week or two.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: History of sexual abuse.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: OK. I`m going to cut your chase right now.
MARK LIPPMAN, ATTORNEY FOR GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: There`s never been any indication of any sort of sexual molestation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "I can see him in my room, exactly the way it was when I was in elementary school and everything gets fuzzy. But I wake up feeling both sore and sick to my stomach.
G. ANTHONY: Is there anything else that you want to say directly to me at all?
CASEY ANTHONY: I really wish that none of this would have ever happened.
LIPPMAN: He`s never sexually molested Casey.
G. ANTHONY: No, I did not.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was verbally and emotionally abused as a child.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: "And I told my mother about it two years ago. Her reaction was literally like a knife in my chest. So that`s why you`re a whore."
CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody in my own family is on my side.
G. ANTHONY: How dare you say that? You`re darn right I`m upset. This is just uncalled for. How dare you? How dare you?
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls, out to Niki in Texas. Hi, Niki.
NIKI, CALLER FROM TEXAS: Hi, Nancy. Thank you for taking my call.
GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?
NIKI: Well, since Casey`s attorney is implying that Casey was molested by her father or brother, since all of the other men tested for paternity were not the father, how would the case be impacted if they were saying that Casey or Caylee was conceived from an incestuous relationship from her father or brother?
GRACE: Correct me if I`m wrong, Ellie Jostad, but weren`t both of them also DNA tested?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Yes, they were, Nancy. These rumors have been swirling from the beginning so they did test Lee and George. Not the father.
GRACE: So there`s your answer, Niki. They are absolutely not the father of little Caylee.
To Debbie in Minnesota. Hi, Debbie. What`s your question?
DEBBIE, CALLER FROM MINNESOTA: Hi, Nancy. How are you doing?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
DEBBIE: Three things to say quickly. Number one, the only reason that girl cries is when it`s about her.
GRACE: True.
DEBBIE: Number two, in the pre-jail interviews before Caylee`s body was found, she referred to her in the past tense. Number three, and the main question is the smell of the decomp in the car. For it to be that strong, how long do you think her body was in that trunk because I haven`t heard that answered yet?
GRACE: That`s a really great question.
DEBBIE: Thanks, Nancy.
GRACE: Let me ask you one thing. Hey, hold -- don`t lose Debbie.
Debbie, are you still there?
DEBBIE: Yes.
GRACE: Debbie, what do you do for a living?
DEBBIE: I clean at ECONAR GeoSystems in Appleton, Minnesota.
GRACE: Man, I thought you`re either an investigator or a nurse. You sound like either an investigator or a nurse. You should be a CSI. You should be a crime tech. Hold on. I`m going to answer your question right now.
To Dr. Michael Arnall, board certified forensic pathologist, joining us out of Denver. That`s a tough question. How long had the body been in the car to achieve that horrific stench?
DR. MICHAEL ARNALL, BOARD CERTIFIED FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: If they had placed the body in that trunk right after it was killed, it would have taken a couple of days for that body to get juicy enough so that you get that acrid odor. At least a couple of days, I would say.
GRACE: And you know what, Dr. Arnall, the state may very well have the jurors smell. There were three -- I believe three containers of air. Three or more. That -- that scientist Arpad Vass only used one container of air out of tot mom`s trunk to get the body decomp and the chloroform in the air in her trunk. That leaves at least two containers of air left.
What I think would be a great idea is to stick something pristine into the container like a t-shirt and then let them smell the t-shirt, or then let them smell the t-shirt, or I guess just let them smell the air itself.
According to his testimony it made him jump back several feet. It was so -- the stench was so all of, Dr. Arnall.
ARNALL: I believe that. There`s no way to prepare for that stench. It`s a characteristic, extremely bad odor.
GRACE: And to Jean Casarez, let`s follow up with what Dr. Arnall is saying. Of course he`s going to be right, because he always is, but the facts that we know, how long, Jean -- and you`ve analyzed the facts up and down, every which way but loose. How long do you believe, under the state`s theory, was Caylee`s body in that trunk?
CASAREZ: Let`s look at those facts. June 16th, the last time Caylee was seen alive. The end of June was when that car was found. And when she dropped it off at that check cashing place. So where will the prosecution say the body was put in the trunk? It`s during that time.
GRACE: I want to go back out to Greg Beratlis, Scott Peterson juror and co-author of "We, The Jury: Deciding the Fate of Scott Peterson." That was a tough trial. It was a long -- it had a lot of jurors on and of -- the jury, a lot of jurors dropped off the jury.
Tell me what it was like behind closed doors when you guys started determining the death penalty.
GREG BERATLIS, SCOTT PETERSON JUROR, CO-AUTHOR OF "WE, THE JURY: DECIDING THE FATE OF SCOTT PETERSON": It was tough. I`m going to tell you, you`re talking about a person`s life. You`ve just gone through, you know, five months of testimony and even though, it`s a person`s life still. You`re making a decision on that. And that`s a tough decision to make.
I have people come up to me and say, you did a great job after the trial. And I would cringe because I was like, what do you mean I did a great job? A person still is going to -- the death penalty. It doesn`t bring anybody back. It doesn`t make anything better. But it`s -- it`s tough.
GRACE: How tough was it for you guys to be sequestered so long, and did you get to see your family?
BERATLIS: No, we didn`t get to see our family during that time. Our families were able to bring belongings to the hotel. The sheriff`s department would go through them, make sure there was no contraband or anything like that. And then we would receive it back.
I remembered -- actually looking out my window and seeing my wife driving away and waving out the window, but no, there was no contact with my family.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Martha in Missouri. Hi, Martha, what`s your question?
MARTHA, CALLER FROM MISSOURI: Hi, Nancy. I watch all your shows.
GRACE: Thank you, Miss Martha.
MARTHA: I would like to know if anybody knows if Casey is on medications now.
GRACE: Good question. What do we know, Natisha Lance?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: As far as we know, no, she`s not on medication. But where she`s being housed now, which is the Pinellas County Jail, she is being housed in the health ward. She is in protective custody and she has 24/7 monitoring.
GRACE: The trial of tot mom Casey Anthony is under way. We are live in Clearwater, Florida, at the courthouse.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: And you look at her and say that she`s 100 percent innocent right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Guilt or innocence.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the contradictions.
CASEY ANTHONY: You don`t know what my involvement is and stuff?
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I don`t know what your involvement is, sweetheart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey is a very effective liar. She lies.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Tangled web of lies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re tired of the lies. No more lies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is lying sometimes OK? I have to say no.
(END OF VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: The phone calls and e-mails pouring in now that tot mom`s -- part of her defense is coming out that she claims she was molested as a child. Here we go.
Here`s one from Linda in Menlo. "Has anyone mentioned how in the world does this killer connect that lie of being molested to murdering her daughter? Are they then going to say George killed her? So is that what`s going to happen?"
We are talking your calls. Out to Maureen in Florida. Hi, Maureen.
MAUREEN, CALLER FROM FLORIDA: Hi, Nancy. I have a lot of questions but I`m just going to ask one. Who is paying for this extensive defense team?
GRACE: Oh, let me throw that one to Ellie Jostad.
Ellie, who is? I`ve got a bad feeling you`re going to say us.
JOSTAD: Yes, the state is paying for it, Nancy. Casey Anthony indigent, so the taxpayers are going to pay for it.
GRACE: And what`s the tab so far, El?
JOSTAD: Boy, I believe they`re well over $200,000 at this point.
GRACE: OK. Good to know.
Let`s stop and remember Marine Corporal Steven Bixler, 20, Suffield, Connecticut, killed Iraq. On a third tour, awarded Purple Heart, Navy and Marine Corps Commendation medals. An Eagle Scout. Loved snowboarding, surfing, four-wheeling in his Jeep.
Leaves behind parents, Richard and Linda, grandmother Gloria, twin sister Sandra.
Stephen Bixler, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but our biggest thank you, to you, for being with us.
And our thoughts and prayers to the family of Laura who passed away May 7th, Albany, Georgia. Just 25. A member of First United Methodist Church. Studies psychology at Darton College. Leaves behind loving parents, Rachel and Phillip. Stepmother Belinda. Brothers John, Jesse, Matt. Great grandmother Eileen. And her little boy.
Laura Deyette. What a beautiful life. Good night, friend. You`ll be missed.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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