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Joy Behar Page
Interview with Chaz Bono; Interview with Donny and Marie Osmond
Aired May 20, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR INTERVIEWS Chaz Bono talks to Joy about his transition to manhood.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHAZ BONO, AUTHOR, "TRANSITION": You know people, are you more into sports now? No, I liked them before. I`m slightly more gadget-oriented now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Plus Donny and Marie Osmond are together for their first album in 30 years and they`ll tell Joy all about the reunion.
That and more starting right now.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Welcome to the show. My guests tonight are from two iconic families from the `60s and `70s.
First it`s Chaz Bono. Years ago America knew Chaz as Chastity, the daughter of Sonny & Cher. After a lifetime of struggling with identity issues, Chastity realized she was a man living in a woman`s body and became Chaz. He talks about that journey story in "Transition: The story of how I became a man".
I started out by asking him about the decision to go by the name "Chaz".
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BONO: Well, and I never went by Chastity. I always hated that name, it`s the truth.
BEHAR: Why?
BONO: Well, you know, I felt like a guy and I`m named Chastity. It`s just -- you know.
BEHAR: Yes, right.
BONO: You know, just -- it`s not what you want. So I was -- I was always Chas, with an s. And then so I just kind of -- it was easy to make the transition into Chaz.
BEHAR: Yes. It would be like my real name is Josephine. I could have been Joseph.
BONO: Right, exactly. That`s exactly it.
BEHAR: So -- we`re looking at that clip, you say you were around 3 years old, you have the most beautiful hair. Your hair is like spun gold, my God.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: Beautiful.
BONO: Thank you. Not anymore. Got dark.
BEHAR: It got dark. Well, unless --
BONO: That`s what happens.
BEHAR: Unless you`re Swedish, you`re never going to keep the hair.
BONO: Right, exactly.
BEHAR: But even then, you`re only about 3 years old there?
BONO: I`m guessing like 3, 4. That`s like 2. And I think what we saw before, probably about 4.
BEHAR: And did you -- even then, did you know something was off with you?
BONO: I don`t really remember that time, to be honest. So I would say at about 5, yes, I did.
BEHAR: You did?
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: And what did it feel like? What sensation did you have at 5?
BONO: I felt like one of the boys. I mean my friends were boys and I was interested in the things that they were. And I didn`t really -- I mean when I was younger I didn`t really get girls for the most part. I really didn`t understand them. I didn`t understand what made them tick or why they thought, you know, the things that they liked to play with was fun or any of that.
BEHAR: Right. Well, a lot of kids, girls, think that they`re like that, and they`re just tomboys. And then they kind of outgrow that and become girls, or girlie girls.
BONO: Right.
BEHAR: But you did not.
BONO: No, clearly.
BEHAR: Yes, you did not.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: Clearly you did not.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: And you write in the book that your dad treated you like a boy.
I found that interesting, that Sonny, who`s a big conservative --
BONO: Well, that was later in life.
BEHAR: Oh, he used to be a liberal when you were a kid?
BONO: Well, you know, we never talked politics when I was little like that. But from like what my mom and my aunt said, yes, I mean I think at one point he was, you know, like a -- you know, some kind of -- when they were in the `60s, like a liaison or something with the Democratic Party. So, yes. So I think he got more conservative as he got older.
BEHAR: As he got older and wanted to run for the mayor of Palm Springs.
BONO: Palm Springs, yes.
BEHAR: Maybe that`s the ticket he could run on too. You never know with politicians. But anyway, he had a nickname for you. What was that?
BONO: He started calling me Fred.
BEHAR: Fred?
BONO: Actually, yes. And we got that --
BEHAR: Why?
BONO: We were in Palm Springs. We always had a place in Palm Springs. And so we`d go up on weekends all the time. We were there and there was this toy store called Uncle Don`s that I always used to love to go to. And you know, they had -- I don`t remember if it was like mugs or pins or whatever with kids` names. A bunch of names.
BEHAR: Right.
BONO: And they never had my name, ever. So he said, well, let`s pick another name. What do you like? I mean we`re going around. He said, what about Fred? What do you think of Fred? I said, yes, I like Fred, that`s good. And that stuck.
BEHAR: Isn`t that interesting.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: So do you think at that point -- and I know that in your book, you talk about how he was much more accepting of your lesbian period.
BONO: Uh-huh.
BEHAR: And do you think that he knew something that others did not see? Or was he just --
BONO: No, I don`t -- I mean I don`t think so. Again, we never got a chance to talk about this because he died before -- but no, I think that for him it was just, you know, really easy at that time. He was a single dad. And I spent a lot of time with him. And I was interested in the stuff that he was into.
BEHAR: He liked that.
BONO: And he liked that. And I wanted to be like him.
BEHAR: He didn`t have a son.
BONO: Exactly. He didn`t have a son at that point. And so it was easy and it was fun and he liked it.
BEHAR: Yes. I said to you before on the other show that we did that you said at some point on the show, I want to grow up to be big and strong like my daddy.
BONO: Yes, I always did. I always -- you know, growing up, I just -- I adored my dad. And yes, I always wanted to be like him.
BEHAR: Yes. Not like Cher?
BONO: No.
BEHAR: Why not?
BONO: Because I identified with him. I mean, that`s -- you know, I wanted to grow up to be a man, not a woman. So I identified with him.
BEHAR: Mom was not really that supportive, was she, of this whole thing in the beginning?
BONO: Of? You know, I think --
BEHAR: How about when you came out as a lesbian? How was she then?
BONO: An initial really bad reaction, which was partly due to the fact that everybody else knew and she didn`t.
BEHAR: Oh, so she felt left out.
BONO: So she felt --
(CROSSTALK)
BONO: Her feelings were hurt. And she wasn`t happy that I was gay. It was both. But a big part of it -- a big part of it was that I think she felt foolish that, you know, everybody else knew.
So -- but no, I mean -- you know, in fairness to her, I, you know -- it`s the 1970s and she has a daughter. And she has probably all these fantasies of all the things we`re going to do together. And I`m, you know, not interested in any of it and don`t want to be anything like her.
BEHAR: Yes. I have a friend who was a lesbian. She passed away recently. And her mother said to her -- an Italian mother, she said to her, you`re not the daughter I wanted. And she said to her mother, well, you`re not the mother I wanted. They had that conversation.
BONO: Yes, well, luckily, we haven`t. So -- I`m glad of that.
BEHAR: But -- yes. She -- I mean I have notes here about things that she said to you, that she told you, you walked like a truck driver.
BONO: Uh-huh.
BEHAR: And you dressed like a slob.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: As a child --
BONO: Teenager.
BEHAR: Teenager.
BONO: Yes, those were the fun teenage years.
BEHAR: A lot of mothers say that.
BONO: Of course.
BEHAR: You dress like a slob.
BONO: Right.
BEHAR: And they made a deal that Chaz could wear anything he wanted except for boys` shoes. What`s up with that?
BONO: Boys` shoes threw her over the edge for some reason. I don`t know why. I don`t know why.
BEHAR: I guess, you know, because women like Cher love shoes.
BONO: I guess. I mean, and it`s a lot -- no, let`s -- I was talking to somebody else, it`s not like I was in jeans and t-shirt and high heels. But, you know, would she like me --
BEHAR: You were kind of butch then too.
BONO: Oh, yes. But she liked -- you know, I had to get the girl sneakers, not the boy sneakers. I don`t know why.
BEHAR: I see. It was like -- almost like she was trying her best to keep you as a girl.
BONO: Yes, I guess.
BEHAR: As a girl, as a girl. Yes. And it`s funny, but Sonny was very supportive of you, when you said you were, as I said before. But Cher wanted to kick you out of the house? Or did kick you out?
BONO: She did. She did kick me out.
BEHAR: She kicked you out of the house?
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: How old were you then?
BONO: 18.
BEHAR: You were 18.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: And what were you supposed to do? Go find a hotel room?
BONO: I had a girlfriend, luckily.
BEHAR: Yes.
BONO: I moved in with her. And then -- but it was a quick kick out of the house. I could have gone back after about a week, but I decided not to. But no, she freaked out for about a week. And then she called me up and apologized. And at that point I was living here in New York. And she was in L.A., and she said, why don`t you fly out and bring your girlfriend. And let`s, you know --
BEHAR: So she smoothed it over.
BONO: Yes. Definitely.
BEHAR: But it`s ironic, isn`t it, that she is such a gay icon, and that she would have any kind of trepidation with a gay child.
BONO: It`s different when it`s your kid.
BEHAR: I guess so. But I mean, she`s surrounded -- she`s got hair dressers and makeup artists and costumers who are probably all gay. It`s fascinating. I mean, it`s just an irony about Cher that I could dine out on for about 10 minutes.
We have much more with Chaz on the way, so stay right there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEHAR: I`m back with Chaz Bono. And we are talking about his transition from woman to man.
As part of your transition, you`ve been on a lot of testosterone, which I remember in the documentary --
BONO: Right.
BEHAR: -- like --
BONO: Well, not -- you know, like a normal amount.
BEHAR: What`s a normal amount?
BONO: Well, you know, what -- you know, actually I mean, mine is a little higher than -- for my age, because I`m -- you know, they -- the procedure really gets you to go through a second puberty. So like a teenage amount.
BEHAR: A teenage amount of testosterone.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: Is it dangerous to put testosterone into your body?
BONO: I think if you`re regulated by a doctor and your blood is checked often and everything, no. I feel pretty safe doing that. I mean, you know, I`m at risk for things that men are at risk for now. And I`m not at risk for a lot of the things that I would have been at risk for if I had stayed a woman.
BEHAR: Well, that`s so interesting.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: So you could get a heart attack.
BONO: Right.
BEHAR: The kind of heart attack a man would get.
BONO: Right. But like --
BEHAR: Prostate cancer?
BONO: No, no, of course not. But like osteoporosis, one of the treatments for it is testosterone, so now I don`t have to worry about that at all.
BEHAR: You`ll always walk upright.
BONO: Exactly, I will.
BEHAR: I love it.
But the testosterone, it`s an interesting drug, testosterone.
BONO: It is.
BEHAR: Because you know, women kind of lose their sex drive as they get older a little bit, you know?
BONO: Of course.
BEHAR: But men don`t because of the testosterone.
BONO: Uh-huh.
BEHAR: So did you then become very sexually more interested as a man?
BONO: I did.
BEHAR: You did.
BONO: I did. Yes. I would say before, my sex drive was -- you know, probably not so great. You know, medium to low. And so yes, I did experience a big difference going on with testosterone.
BEHAR: And did your girlfriend appreciate that?
BONO: I think she did, actually.
BEHAR: Yes?
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: Well, good for her.
BONO: I do. I think she did. I mean --
BEHAR: Yes.
BONO: I mean, I experienced sex a little bit differently than I did before.
BEHAR: Really? How?
BONO: It just feels -- for me, a little bit more biologic -- like a biological need, versus an emotional thought or feeling.
BEHAR: Oh, oh, it`s that old thing that men just want to get laid. And they`re not thinking about like all the attachment and --
BONO: Yes. I mean --
BEHAR: All the damn foreplay that women put them through.
BONO: Jenny is a big cuddler. You know --
BEHAR: She`s a cuddler. Yes.
BONO: Yes, so it`s like that kind of stuff. It`s like, now let`s cuddle. I`m like, come on, I want to either grab something, I`m hungry or --
BEHAR: Let`s eat or do it.
BONO: I want to go to sleep, or whatever.
BEHAR: How else have you changed as a man? Do you, like, want the remote control more often?
BONO: No, that -- I was like that before. Most of the things haven`t, I mean people that do -- are you more into sports now? No, I liked them before. I`m slightly more gadget-oriented now.
BEHAR: Really?
BONO: Yes, I don`t know why but --
BEHAR: You like to hang out in hardware stores?
BONO: No, no, not those kind of gadgets, like the new toys. You know, like when the new, when the latest --
BEHAR: The iPad?
BONO: Exactly -- comes out, I`m like, oh yes, I really want the new toys.
BEHAR: And you know, in the documentary you get a little bit nasty- ish for a period of time there.
BONO: I did first, yes.
BEHAR: That was an interesting part of the documentary, I thought. You just were like turning. And -- impatient. And like, put the dinner on the table. Just like a macho guy.
BONO: You know, we went through a difficult time.
BEHAR: Yes.
BONO: And you really -- you see it on there. And we were -- look, it was -- we went through a lot. I think I say at the end of the film, but you know, Jenny was in grad school, I was transitioning. She was dealing with some alcohol issues. It was a lot all at once.
BEHAR: Yes.
BONO: So we -- we had some trying times. But we were able to, you know, work through it, which was amazing.
BEHAR: You worked it out. I saw that in the movie that you did work it out.
BONO: Yes. We did.
BEHAR: She was quite -- she`s a strong girl in many ways.
BONO: She is, yes.
BEHAR: Yes, yes, yes. You recently did an interview with David Letterman.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: And let`s take a quick look at the clip from that interview.
BONO: Ok.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BONO: I just never felt like a female.
DAVID LETTERMAN, TALK SHOW HOST: Right. Is this connected to homosexuality? Or --
BONO: No, not at all.
LETTERMAN: Incidental to homosexuality?
BONO: It really is. I mean there are transgender people who are straight, there are transgender people who are gay, it`s like the whole thing. So two separate issues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Is it difficult to answer questions like that? They`re very personal.
BONO: No, I actually -- I mean it was -- it was nice to do that, actually, with Dave. Because, you know, I think he asked questions that a lot of people think and really don`t understand.
So I felt like it was great to be able to break it down. It was like a real Transgender 101 that I got to do with Dave. And that was good.
BEHAR: What do you think is the confusion that most people have?
BONO: I -- I do -- I think they confuse sexual orientation and gender identity.
BEHAR: It`s two different things?
BONO: And it`s two completely different things. And one really has nothing to do with the other. And so I think that`s, you know -- and I think what can complicate it is people like me. You know, I complicate it. I messed it up too. I thought, Ok, I`m attracted to women, I must be a lesbian. And it took me many, many years to realize, no, it`s not that I`m a lesbian, it`s that I`m transgender.
BEHAR: That you`re a man attracted to a woman.
BONO: That I`m a man attracted to a woman, exactly.
BEHAR: I see. That`s what drives people crazy about the whole thing.
BONO: Yes. So it is very confusing.
BEHAR: But your girlfriend is a lesbian.
BONO: My girlfriend is actually bisexual.
BEHAR: Ok. But she is attracted to women -- oh, lucky for her, she`s attracted to both.
BONO: Attracted to both, exactly. Lucky for me too.
BEHAR: Wow, that`s cool.
BONO: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: Uh-huh.
So physically, though, I mean, I don`t want to go into too much of it because we`ve heard a lot about it.
BONO: Right.
BEHAR: You had this I guess you call it a mastectomy?
BONO: Well, you really call it a top surgery. I mean, that`s what it`s called in our world.
BEHAR: Yes.
BONO: Kind of -- and because it`s not exactly a mastectomy. It`s not taking stuff away because there`s illness there.
BEHAR: Right.
BONO: So it`s really you`re taking breast tissue away, but you`re leaving stuff there to also turn it into a male-looking chest.
BEHAR: Yes. Right, I see. And then -- but you haven`t had the other surgery.
BONO: Right.
BEHAR: And you want to explain it to the transgender community maybe --
BONO: Well, no, no. What I was saying to you is, yes, I want people to understand that this is -- this was, you know -- I mean I don`t -- I think -- for people who want to do that, I think it`s a great thing.
BEHAR: This is the genitalia and the bottom part of your body.
BONO: Yes, exactly. And for some people it`s really important. For me, the most important thing was that I looked and felt male, and that when I interacted in the world, people would perceive me as I always felt. And so I personally am waiting for the technology to get a little better.
But, you know, for guys who are happy with the way it is now, I think that`s great. You know, I think that`s -- I think that`s really cool.
BEHAR: Well, they show a little of the surgery that -- in the documentary.
BONO: They do.
BEHAR: And that a sort of a class that you went to.
BONO: Yes. It was a lecture about --
BEHAR: A lecture?
BONO: Yes, from a plastic surgeon who does that surgery.
BEHAR: It looked like it would be a rough surgery.
BONO: That`s -- I mean that`s kind of how I feel. It`s kind of a rough surgery. And so I just -- I`m hoping, though, you know, if I wait a little bit, a little bit longer, they`ll have slightly better results. And that`s just what I need personally.
BEHAR: Ok, all right. We`ll be back with some more with Chaz. Stay there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEHAR: I`m back with Chaz Bono.
You know, when I watched the documentary, which I really highly recommend.
BONO: Thank you.
BEHAR: It`s very interesting stuff. And it`s not boring. And it`s not --
BONO: No, it`s fun too. There`s some really funny parts in it. It is, it`s not boring.
BEHAR: And I have to say that my own impression of you is that you are a much happier person now.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: That you seem centered, that you are not anxiety-ridden.
BONO: No, it`s true.
BEHAR: And it`s such -- it`s really nice to see that.
BONO: Thank you.
BEHAR: You know? And I hope you continue in that way.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: Helping other kids now who are dealing with this kind of thing.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: That must be so hard on children.
BONO: It`s -- you know, these children that I work with, they`re amazing. And even more so, their parents, who are there and supportive. And so we work -- we work with the whole family, with the parents, siblings, the kids, and it`s a great -- it is a great support network.
BEHAR: I mean the parents probably are confused about what to do. And they`ve -- like I said before, if a girl is acting like a tomboy, they probably don`t think anything of it.
BONO: And you don`t. I mean, you know, and you wouldn`t. And our kids, in our group are kids that, you know, it wasn`t that they were acting like a tomboy. They were saying I`m a boy, I`m a boy, I`m a boy.
BEHAR: I`m a boy.
BONO: So they made their parents stop and take notice and find out how to get them help.
BEHAR: But what do you say to a little 5-year-old? What would you say to a kid?
BONO: I would find, you know, a professional who is used to dealing with that and talk to them, and, you know, help that child to be comfortable.
BEHAR: Is it always true that a kid who says I`m a boy at 5 years old will eventually want to do the transgender surgery?
BONO: You mean the transition.
BEHAR: The transition.
BONO: You know, I don`t know of any who haven`t. But this is all -- you know, I think it`s -- we will know more, but so far I haven`t seen anybody. I mean these kids are exactly the way I was. You know, they are exactly the way I was, only much braver because, you know, they`re talking about it and doing something about it.
BEHAR: Right. Can you imagine when you were five years old?
BONO: No, not at all.
BEHAR: I mean, the `70s?
BONO: Exactly.
BEHAR: You know.
BONO: Yes.
BEHAR: What are your plans now for your life? What are you going to do now?
BONO: I`m going to take a little break -- and --
BEHAR: From being interviewed.
BONO: I wrote a book, did a documentary, and then have been promoting everything. So I`m going to take a breather and regroup and start doing more stuff.
BEHAR: Like, do you have a career idea? Do you want to be a performer? I mean you grew up with that.
BONO: I did grow up -- you know, I don`t know. I talk about in the book -- that one of -- I went to school here, performing arts, I was a drama major. I always had a really hard time playing female roles. And in my senior year, I actually played a man in our big play and was really good. And so I thought maybe I`ll take a class and see how that feels now that I can do that. So --
BEHAR: Well, I wish you all the luck in the world, Chaz.
BONO: Thank you.
BEHAR: It`s lovely to meet you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BEHAR: Up next, I`ll find out why Marie Osmond remarried her ex- husband after divorcing him 26 years ago and if her brother, Donny, approves.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Donny and Marie Osmond come from one of the most successful show business families in history, and they have just released their first album together in 30 years. And it`s called "Donny and Marie." I just had to ask them how they came up with that title.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(CROSSTALK)
DONNY OSMOND, SINGER: -- focus groups to come up with that name.
MARIE OSMOND, SINGER: I chose all the songs and gave him the job of coming up with the name.
D. OSMOND: Spit it out, Marie.
M. OSMOND: Donny and Marie. Took him, you know, about six months. But he was clever.
D. OSMOND: That is not true at all, at all. I chose all the songs.
BEHAR: You can call it, you know, Abbott and Costello, or something.
D. OSMOND: Guess what? We just found out we`re number three on the country charts.
M. OSMOND: Oh, I know.
D. OSMOND: I just found that out before we went on the air. Isn`t that so cool?
BEHAR: I`m telling you.
D. OSMOND: The last time we were on the charts was like 1847 or something like that.
M. OSMOND: I think so. Yes. No, but it`s called good life. We were saying, we`re living the good life. We`re very happy.
BEHAR: And why so long, 30 years?
D. OSMOND: Well, had to get her to stop playing with dolls.
M. OSMOND: Had to get him to grow up.
D. OSMOND: Seriously, Joy, there really wasn`t --
M. OSMOND: We were --
D. OSMOND: There was really no reason because we had our own separate careers and then this anomaly took place in Las Vegas and, you know, we had a six-week deal. Here we are three years later.
BEHAR: But you`re hot again.
D. OSMOND: It`s unbelievable, Joy.
M. OSMOND: I like this set. It is hot.
BEHAR: I was reading somewhere that some PR person told you that to reinvest your career, Donny, you should say you have some kind of addiction. Is that true?
D. OSMOND: What do you think? What would happen if I did?
BEHAR: You would say no to that.
D. OSMOND: But would it work?
BEHAR: Would people believe that you were an addict?
D. OSMOND: Would it be a good PR stunt?
BEHAR: Well, it works for so many people?
D. OSMOND: Exactly. But what would happen years later? How would I talk to my kids? Dad, did you really do that?
BEHAR: No, you could tell your kids it was just a PR stunt.
D. OSMOND: I don`t --
(LAUGHTER)
D. OSMOND: I`m glad you`re not my PR lady. Let me tell you.
M. OSMOND: This is a thinking woman.
BEHAR: And then another thing, maybe this is true of you -- Michael Jackson said you should change your name?
D. OSMOND: He did.
BEHAR: To what?
D. OSMOND: To Ralph Schwartz. Actually, I said he should change his clothes and -- never mind. Never mind. No, that was a joke.
BEHAR: I mean, these are the things people need to know out there. As a celebrity you get this type of advice all the time. And you have to make your own decisions.
D. OSMOND: You`ve got to be true to yourself, Joy. You know that. I mean, everybody`s got an opinion. Everybody says you should do this, you should do that. We`re victims of that. But you know? We stand true.
M. OSMOND: I don`t think victim is the right word.
D. OSMOND: Well, that`s the wrong word, excuse me. We are recipients of that kind of advice, and then we just have to say I`ve got to look at myself in the mirror in the morning. I`ve got to like that person. You got to be true to yourself and that`s what we`ve done.
BEHAR: Yes. It`s like Osama bin Laden, had to look at himself in the mirror.
D. OSMOND: Yes. He`s not doing that much anymore.
M. OSMOND: So, how are we out there?
BEHAR: So, Marie, darling, you got married again.
M. OSMOND: I did.
BEHAR: Congratulations.
M. OSMOND: Thank you.
BEHAR: Now, this guy, let me just hear on the set (ph), you were married to him, many, many moons ago.
M. OSMOND: I was.
BEHAR: And you had a kid.
M. OSMOND: Yes, I did.
BEHAR: The child -- you got divorced. Is that allowed in Mormonism to get divorced?
M. OSMOND: It better be. I`ve been divorced a couple times.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Because, you know, the Catholics don`t allow it. I don`t know --
(CROSSTALK)
M. OSMOND: I think they do. Well, what you`re saying is in our faith we get married in the temple, which is not death do us part, it`s an eternal commitment. And so, you know, in order to receive a temple divorce, there has to be, you know, legit reasons and have it be very --
BEHAR: So what were the reasons? You want to tell me?
M. OSMOND: Not really.
BEHAR: OK. That`s fine. You can say whatever you want. But you had a child. Did you get custody of the child?
M. OSMOND: Well, he`s 28 now.
BEHAR: But he stayed with you, the baby, the boy?
M. OSMOND: Well, I mean, we shared in visitation and things like that. Yes.
BEHAR: OK. So, now, you`re done with that marriage for whatever reason.
M. OSMOND: Oh, you`re talking about the second one?
D. OSMOND: No, the first one.
M. OSMOND: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: What is his name?
M. OSMOND: Steve. Same as your Steve.
BEHAR: Same as mine.
M. OSMOND: Yes.
BEHAR: So then you get married to somebody else.
M. OSMOND: I did.
BEHAR: You had a couple kids.
M. OSMOND: For 20 years.
BEHAR: You adopted a whole bunch of kids.
M. OSMOND: I can`t remember which ones.
BEHAR: That`s good. That`s right. That`s the way it`s supposed to be.
M. OSMOND: Absolutely.
BEHAR: And then you got rid of him. He`s gone now.
M. OSMOND: Yes.
BEHAR: All right.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: On to number three, who happens to be number one.
M. OSMOND: Number one -- wow!
BEHAR: Which is fascinating, because -- I mean, I have trouble with it, to tell you the truth, why -- I would never remarry my ex-husband. I mean, if I wanted to marry him, I would have stayed married. What happened there?
M. OSMOND: Well, you know, it`s interesting. I think time, I think we were young, you know, you get a lot of pressure and opinions and all kinds of things that hit you, and I don`t know. Maybe we both just matured, grew up, and he`s phenomenal. He`s an amazing -- we`ve always just been the same. I don`t know how to explain it other than there`s just a connection.
BEHAR: When did you meet him in the first place?
M. OSMOND: Through our son. You know, we had kind of gone our separate ways.
D. OSMOND: No, in the first place, the very beginning.
BEHAR: No, when you first met him.
M. OSMOND: Oh, like 100 years ago?
D. OSMOND: Tell me something about through your son you met your first husband?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Yes, 100 years ago.
M. OSMOND: He played -- he was a professional basketball, he played, and we met through BYU and I think somebody introduced -- was it one of you brothers, was it you or Jay. I don`t remember.
BEHAR: Nobody remembers.
M. OSMOND: It was a long time ago.
D. OSMOND: Tito was involved somewhere.
BEHAR: Just one more question.
M. OSMOND: Jermaine.
BEHAR: There was a sexual attraction that had carried over from those years?
D. OSMOND: Now, we`re getting into the good questions.
M. OSMOND: OK. So, what you`re asking was, was there always some kind of --
BEHAR: Was there a spark?
M. OSMOND: No, and it was one of those things that really -- Steven, son Steven, said, mom needs some help. And so, you know, he helped move some things, I was kind of left with all these kids, and it wasn`t initially, he was just always a really good friend.
BEHAR: When he came back into the picture.
M. OSMOND: Yes. No, I was definitely divorced and moving on with my life, and truly made a decision that I really just wanted to get my children raised.
I think that every woman does that. But my feeling is, is that you don`t really -- you really shouldn`t be looking for a relationship until you feel like your self-esteem is where it should be. I said that on Oprah. You marry at the level of your self-esteem.
BEHAR: You say it on Oprah, you can say it. I`m sorry.
D. OSMOND: Can I ask you a question?
BEHAR: Yes.
D. OSMOND: You don`t agree with this. You just said that a second ago. Tell me why.
M. OSMOND: She was asking --
D. OSMOND: She said you don`t agree. Why?
BEHAR: Who`s interviewing who?
D. OSMOND: No, I`m turning the table.
M. OSMOND: I agree with her if it were my second husband.
D. OSMOND: No. What problem do you have with it? Because it`s true love. I mean, the way I`ve said it -- the way I said it earlier, it is a Cinderella story with bumps in the road with a beautiful happy ending. What`s your problem, Joy?
BEHAR: Right. No, I don`t have a problem with it, I`m just --
M. OSMOND: Who is he?
BEHAR: I think it`s lovely, I`m happy for her, I`m just inquiring.
M. OSMOND: Because I think a lot of people would wonder, you know, about it. But we -- but I would say about two years ago we said, OK, let`s see what`s happened. We didn`t want to hurt our son. We didn`t want to hurt other kids. I didn`t want anybody to know.
And I fell in love. I fell madly in love.
BEHAR: Again, with the same guy?
M. OSMOND: Oh, my gosh, yes.
D. OSMOND: See, I`ve always had a great relationship with Steve.
BEHAR: Have you? You always liked him?
D. OSMOND: He`s always been a great guy.
BEHAR: So, you approve of the whole thing?
D. OSMOND: I not only approved, I condone this whole thing. Oh, yes.
BEHAR: Do you care?
M. OSMOND: Yes.
D. OSMOND: He`s been there for many, many years to help out the children, even in another marriage. OK? He`s been there for those kids.
BEHAR: So, he`s a good guy.
D. OSMOND: He`s a really good guy.
BEHAR: I`m so glad. Really.
M. OSMOND: You know, I didn`t even know until a year ago -- I guess my kids like put paint cans up and it spilled all over my basement. I was out of town, they were afraid of what their father would do. They called Steve and he came over and like, you know, cleaned up the paint and did the walls and I didn`t even know this.
BEHAR: What`s the other one? What`s his name?
D. OSMOND: We`re not going to go there.
M. OSMOND: No, it was just so funny, I didn`t even know that. But he`s always very supportive.
D. OSMOND: He`s number two.
BEHAR: The number two husband. What was his name?
D. OSMOND: Number two husband.
BEHAR: OK. All right. Now, so that`s good. I`m happy for you both. And you have a hit show in Vegas.
D. OSMOND: Unbelievable, Joy, what`s going on.
BEHAR: And you`re just back to being Donny and Marie.
D. OSMOND: I like this. Can you do this again?
M. OSMOND: You didn`t even want to see these.
BEHAR: Yes, those are beautiful. Yes. Very nice. Rings -- see, rings make my finger itchy.
D. OSMOND: So, you don`t wear a ring?
BEHAR: Well, I`m not married.
D. OSMOND: Who`s Steve?
BEHAR: Steve is my BF.
D. OSMOND: Oh. Are you going to get married?
M. OSMOND: She just said rings make her itchy.
BEHAR: We`ll be together this July for 29 years without being married.
D. OSMOND: What`s his problem? Why doesn`t he pop the question?
BEHAR: Oh, he pops it.
(LAUGHTER)
M. OSMOND: And what do you do back?
BEHAR: What do I do back?
D. OSMOND: Yes. You just don`t want to get married to Steve. Is that what it is?
BEHAR: No, I love Steve.
D. OSMOND: Do you like him?
BEHAR: I love Steve.
D. OSMOND: Why don`t you marry him?
BEHAR: Well, that`s why I don`t want to marry him, because I love him.
OK. Sit tight. We have much more to talk about.
M. OSMOND: I think we have issues.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You`re right about that, Marie.
D. OSMOND: We`ll be right back here on the Donny and Marie show interviewing Joy Behar.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
BEHAR: That`s Donny and Marie and their hit Vegas show and they`re back with me now.
You guys are famous Mormons, I must tell you. You, Glenn Beck, who else? Mitt Romney.
M. OSMOND: You.
BEHAR: I`m not from Utah, I`m from Brooklyn. We`re Catholics.
D. OSMOND: You know what? There are more Mormons outside the United States than there are in the United States.
BEHAR: There are? Where are they?
D. OSMOND: They`re all over the world.
M. OSMOND: We`re trying to find them.
BEHAR: What will you do --
M. OSMOND: Have you seen those missionaries out there?
BEHAR: What will you do with them when you find them?
D. OSMOND: There are like 13 million-plus members of the Mormon Church.
BEHAR: You know, the "Book of Mormon" is playing. Did you see it yet?
D. OSMOND: I haven`t seen it yet.
M. OSMOND: I`ve heard.
BEHAR: What did you hear?
M. OSMOND: Well, I heard there were some very funny things. I heard there were very irreverent things.
BEHAR: Very irreverent?
M. OSMOND: Yes.
D. OSMOND: You`ve seen it? And?
BEHAR: Yes. It`s the greatest show I`ve ever seen.
D. OSMOND: You`re kidding me.
BEHAR: I love it. It`s up there with "The Producers" and "Gypsy" in my book. Fabulous. Hilarious.
M. OSMOND: I heard there were a lot of non-truths in it, that where they always put, you know, I haven`t seen it.
BEHAR: I want to ask you a few questions about it, because I don`t know anything about Mormonism so that`s where I learned about it.
M. OSMOND: Well, I think that`s the wrong place to go.
(LAUGHTER)
D. OSMOND: That is not a good representation of our faith.
BEHAR: I`ve interviewed the sister wives, you know, and I watched that show "Big Love."
D. OSMOND: Again, that is not a good representation. Polygamy is not even a part of our faith.
BEHAR: Why not? It was a good idea, wasn`t it?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: What`s wrong with polygamy? I like polyandry myself, you know, when the wife gets 10 husbands.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Like the word husband is andry.
D. OSMOND: I did not know that. See what you learn on Joy`s show?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes, sister wives, he married all of them.
M. OSMOND: That`s not our faith. That`s not our faith.
BEHAR: Wait a second, they`re a real family. They`re not jealous of each other, those women. I would say, like, when he goes to bed with the other one, aren`t you upset? No.
M. OSMOND: I saw your show.
BEHAR: Probably they`re like, good, let her do it.
(LAUGHTER)
M. OSMOND: And thus, she`s not wanting to get married.
D. OSMOND: Exactly. And, thus, Joy is not a Mormon.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You know who was offended by it? Kathie Lee Gifford was offended by it. She`s not even a Mormon. What`s up with her?
D. OSMOND: I understand there`s some sacrilegious things in there. I mean, any time you use the name Jesus Christ in a sacrilegious type of context, I have a little bit of a problem --
BEHAR: There`s a song called "F you, God."
D. OSMOND: See? I`ve got a problem with that one, you know?
(CROSSTALK)
M. OSMOND: Look at the 10 Commandments. The commandments say don`t take the Lord`s name in vain. I think that would be taking the Lord`s name in vain.
BEHAR: Yes.
M. OSMOND: And so, those are the types of things that we try to have reverence and respect for God. And so, you know, I mean, we can always -- you can always laugh when things get uncomfortable or blue or whatever. But I have to tell you, though, my belief is that I am so grateful to God for my blessings.
I`m so -- I`m a woman in my business for 48 years. That`s not -- that`s an exception.
BEHAR: How old are you?
M. OSMOND: I`m 170. No. But, you know, I thank God every day. I look at my life. I`ve been through ups and downs and everything --
(CROSSTALK)
D. OSMOND: Well, she doesn`t appreciate everything I do for her.
M. OSMOND: But those are the things. You can laugh at things, be irreverent to things. You can find -- you know, do we have to say -- OK, well, it is what it is, but that is not a representation of who we are.
BEHAR: But, you know, a lot of Mormons are coming to see it.
D. OSMOND: That doesn`t mean everybody can -- but it`s blasphemous things going on.
M. OSMOND: You say you`re a Catholic and also Jewish. It`s like --
BEHAR: I`m not Jewish, I`m Catholic -- I`m Italian Catholic.
M. OSMOND: I thought you said you were Jewish.
(CROSSTALK)
D. OSMOND: You get down to Adam, we`re all the same thing.
M. OSMOND: But there are many levels of belief within all faith. I mean, I study all religions. I mean, I read the Tonuch (ph). I`ve read everything.
BEHAR: Tonuch, what`s that?
D. OSMOND: What is that?
M. OSMOND: The Kabbala.
D. OSMOND: She just wrote the Tonuch, you should read it. It`s at Amazon right now.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: It`s a knock-knock joke. Who`s there?
D. OSMOND: I love this show. This is the greatest show.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Cheers. All right. So, explain the magic underwear to me because that I don`t know about.
D. OSMOND: You know what, I`d rather not. I`ll tell you why.
BEHAR: Why?
D. OSMOND: Yes, we`re wearing.
BEHAR: Are you wearing them?
D. OSMOND: Yes, I am. And I`d rather not get into it because it`s not secret, it`s just so sacred.
BEHAR: It makes people laugh when you say magic underwear.
(CROSSTALK)
D. OSMOND: I`ll tell you something.
M. OSMOND: Because, Joy, they don`t understand.
D. OSMOND: If you could go through the temple, OK? The ceremony there, it goes back to the same ceremony in Solomon`s day, all those sacred temples back then, not everybody was allowed in there. But the promises we make to God, you know, this magical underwear or whatever you want to call it, all it is, is an outward expression of an inward commitment.
BEHAR: But why underwear? Why not the magic shirt, or the magic socks? Why not a ring? Why?
(CROSSTALK)
D. OSMOND: Way back in the days of Jerusalem days, the Old Testament days.
BEHAR: Oh, really back then.
D. OSMOND: They used to wear those things on the forehead to remind them or something on their hand or arm, it`s the same thing.
M. OSMOND: You go back --
D. OSMOND: It`s a reminder of the promises you make to -- those commitments and commandments that you say, God, I promise to keep them.
M. OSMOND: I just think that, you know, are we different? Are we weird? No. We have more fun than anybody on the planet. So --
D. OSMOND: You see how many kids we have?
M. OSMOND: If you want to know what we believe in --
BEHAR: I know you have a lot of kids.
D. OSMOND: Seventeen last count.
BEHAR: Osama bin Laden had 53 siblings. How many have you got?
(LAUGHTER)
D. OSMOND: The only thing we`ve got in common with him is the letter "O." OK?
BEHAR: That`s right. The big "O."
D. OSMOND: That`s it.
BEHAR: Do you think Mitt Romney could win being a Mormon?
M. OSMOND: Could Kennedy do it being a Catholic?
BEHAR: He did it.
(CROSSTALK)
D. OSMOND: Very good comment. Very good comment.
M. OSMOND: It was the same kind of thing that went on for him, well, he`s Catholic. He`s Catholic.
D. OSMOND: But you know what I think --
M. OSMOND: Why don`t they look at people as who they are.
BEHAR: Because that`s the reality.
(CROSSTALK)
D. OSMOND: Especially "Book of Mormon" being a hit on Broadway, I think more people are understanding more about Mormons that we`re not weird.
M. OSMOND: Well, don`t say that because I heard it doesn`t have anything to do with Mormon belief.
D. OSMOND: The term Mormon now is just not weird anymore. It`s just like -- we`re just like the Catholics, we`re just like the Jewish people.
M. OSMOND: Just be careful where you get your information from, because there`s so much out there that`s not true.
D. OSMOND: It`s like going on Googling something and saying that`s the gospel truth. No. There`s so much stuff out there.
BEHAR: Donny, believe it or not, as much fun as we`re having, we`re going to have even more fun when we come back. We`ll be right back.
M. OSMOND: Are we coming back?
BEHAR: Yes, we are.
D. OSMOND: I`m out of here.
BEHAR: We`re coming back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Marie and Donny Osmond.
D. OSMOND: Hey, hey, hey, it`s Donny and Marie.
M. OSMOND: Change the graphic.
BEHAR: Now, you know, you two are somewhat competitive.
D. OSMOND: No.
M. OSMOND: No, really?
BEHAR: Friendly sibling rivalry. I realize that. But you won on "Dancing with the Stars" and you fainted.
(LAUGHTER)
M. OSMOND: Thank you so much. I hit my head so hard. We won, right?
D. OSMOND: Whatever.
M. OSMOND: I did it first. I did it first. And we all know that the girls dance much harder than the boys do, so I made it in the finals thank you very much.
BEHAR: What do you mean dance harder?
D. OSMOND: That`s probably true.
M. OSMOND: The guys stand there and hold their hands while they spin 15,000 times. We go through their legs, and over the top and kick our legs up and they stand there and go, isn`t she pretty? Isn`t she lovely in her spandex and 16 inch high heels?
D. OSMOND: OK. Let`s hand it to her, she`s right. It really is about the women.
M. OSMOND: Wow, thank you.
D. OSMOND: It really is about the women. No, it really, because when you watch "Dancing with the Stars," if you watch the woman, OK, because of their dress or lack thereof, but it`s really down to how the women dance. I was fortunate to win.
BEHAR: Who was your partner?
D. OSMOND: Kim Johnson. She`s right at the top of the leader board.
(CROSSTALK)
M. OSMOND: Her legs, he spins her.
D. OSMOND: Yes, but he`s lifting her.
M. OSMOND: Look at her. I mean, he stands there and her legs are like waah!
(CROSSTALK)
D. OSMOND: Give it up, Marie. Can you tell she`s really envious? Mirror ball envy. That`s what it`s called. Mirror ball envy.
BEHAR: I don`t want to mention names but some of the contestants are heavy to lift.
D. OSMOND: Kirstie?
BEHAR: I didn`t say that.
D. OSMOND: I bring her name up because she`s -- I`m making a prediction here, she`s going to make it into the finals.
BEHAR: I like that about you that you would say that.
(CROSSTALK)
D. OSMOND: It is what it is. I mean, it`s a competition. I don`t know if Kirstie can win, but I love her for the fact that she`s hanging in there, and she can move. She can dance.
BEHAR: She`s a dancer. I agree with that.
OK. Now, what about the dolls? Are you still collecting your dolls?
D. OSMOND: Yes, I -- oh.
M. OSMOND: I design them.
BEHAR: I mean, are you still selling them?
M. OSMOND: This is my 20-year anniversary. Isn`t that crazy?
BEHAR: I love your dolls. I have one.
M. OSMOND: Do you?
BEHAR: Yes, you gave me one.
M. OSMOND: Oh, that`s right. On the show, I remember. Yes.
But this is our 20-year anniversary, and not only -- I mean, we`re known as having the most beautiful porcelain dolls in the world. Isn`t that crazy?
BEHAR: You have your dolls. You`ve got your thing at the Flamingo in Las Vegas. You got your new CD. Who`s better than you?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You`re married 33 years.
D. OSMOND: Thirty-three years. I had just a son graduate on Friday. He`s Dr. Osmond now.
BEHAR: He`s an M.D.?
D. OSMOND: He is a physical therapist. He`s a Dr. Osmond now.
BEHAR: OK. Yes. So, and the album "Donny & Marie" it`s called.
M. OSMOND: Yes.
BEHAR: And you can pick it up everywhere.
D. OSMOND: It`s everywhere.
M. OSMOND: Go to Wal-Mart. It`s right here.
D. OSMOND: Joy, I got to tell you. It`s so exciting after all these years and we`re back together again doing this. We didn`t know what would happen when we went back to Las Vegas. It`s an anomaly that took place. We`re just grateful.
BEHAR: You seem like you`re in a very good place, both of you. We thank you for doing the show.
D. OSMOND: Thanks, Joy.
M. OSMOND: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BEHAR: Well, that` our show. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
