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Dr. Drew
Day Two of Casey Anthony Trial; Sexualization of Children
Aired May 25, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Here we go.
Little girls: how young is too young for sexy? As a father of a teenage daughter, this kind of creeps me out.
Then, she is TV royalty. Oprah is over. Long live the queen.
Plus, a reality star`s other amazing race. I`ll tell you why every cause needs a champion like Phil Keoghan.
And the latest on the Casey Anthony trial coming up.
Let`s get started.
Well, today was day two of witness testimony in the Casey Anthony murder trial. But before things heated up inside the courtroom, apparently they got very intense outside when defense attorney Jose Baez scuffled with reporters.
Watch this tape.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Invite Casey to the stand there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on, guys. What the (EXPLETIVE DELETED).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You get out of the way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You get out of the way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, please --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys know we`re here. You guys know we`re here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An outburst like that, that`s kind of unacceptable, Jose. Don`t you think?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your behavior is unacceptable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don`t push us out in the street.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get your hand off me.
Jose --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of my way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- you`re pushing people around now. Is that what you`re doing? You`re pushing people around?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Out of my way. Out of my way.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: That`s just like another day walking around Los Angeles these days the way TMZ swarms around. I understand people clearly aren`t used to what goes on in this town.
The prosecution this morning talked to a few witnesses who said Casey seemed normal -- this is kind of interesting -- normal and happy in the days following what alleged was Caylee`s drowning date and the day that she disappeared. Then state called a neighbor, the neighbor of the Anthonys, to the stand. His name is Brian Burner. He testified that Casey asked to borrow a shovel a few days after Caylee was last seen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While you were doing your yard work on the 18th, did you see or happen to see the defendant, Casey Anthony?
BRIAN BURNER, NEIGHBOR OF GEORGE ANTHONY: She approached me later in the afternoon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you have any idea about what time this was?
BURNER: 1:20, 1:30.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She approached you?
BURNER: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And why did she approach you?
BURNER: She said she wanted to borrow a shovel to dig up a bamboo root.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Burner says that he saw Casey`s white car backed into the family`s garage on the afternoon of June 16, 2008, the day that the prosecutors say Caylee`s grandfather, George Anthony, last saw the child alive.
Now, I don`t know who`s going to use that evidence, because I know in my house, when I back something in, I can`t get anything in the back of the car. But they are going to allege that somebody put something in the back of the car. I know that`s part of the story here.
Later in the day, Casey`s ex-boyfriend, Anthony Lazzaro, testified he was asked about the nanny, the woman Casey told police had kidnapped Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she talk to you with any specificity on, say, what the babysitter`s name was?
ANTHONY LAZZARO, EX-BOYFRIEND OF CASEY ANTHONY: At that point, Zanny.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is in the beginning of the relationship?
LAZZARO: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she tell you anything about Zanny? I`m sorry, let me break it up. Did she tell you where Zanny lived?
LAZZARO: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she tell you if Zanny had any relatives?
LAZZARO: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she tell you if Zanny cared for any other children?
LAZZARO: Not that I can remember.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: So we know that the police searched for Zanny the nanny, and she never materialized. So was this yet just another one of Casey`s lies?
The only thing I really am clear about in this whole case is that a lot of people are lying here. There`s lots of lies all over the place. I just don`t know who`s lying more and whose lies have more of an impact on whether or not this woman is going to be facing the death penalty or whether or not we`re going to ever get to the truth here.
But, boy, people are circumspect, and people are clearly lying and changing their stories. And everyone has got a big job to do to figure this out. So we`ll stay on top of it.
So now on to a completely different topic.
Tell me this, moms, if this scenario sounds familiar to you. You`re out shopping with your tween daughter, and she picks out a piece of clothing that seems a bit provocative for a girl her age. But then she begs you, "Mommy, you`ve got to buy it for you."
You`re conflicted. I understand that. But before you give in, take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Padded pushup bikini tops, lingerie-inspired dresses, thigh-high patent leather boots. It sounds like the stuff you`d see in "MAXIM" magazine, but this clothing is marketed to girls as young as 7.
In fact, a new study found that nearly a third of girls` clothing at 15 major retailers had sexualizing features, characteristics that can encourage our young daughters to view themselves as sex objects. So who`s to blame, the media for glamorizing sex and sexuality, the advertisers for targeting our kids? Or is it us, the parents who agree to buy what looks like soft porn clothing for our children?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. With me now is Michelle Golland. She is a clinical psychologist. Also joining us is Kristin Lara. Now, she allows her 10-year-old daughter to wear makeup, shave her legs, and admits that her daughter is sometimes mistaken for a teenager. And Denise Weinstock, who is opposed to the sexualization of little girls.
But I`m going to start out with Michelle.
The part of this I`m really interested in is us, those of us that are consumers buying these materials. If we`re going to lay blame somewhere, should we blame people that are in business and just supplying stuff to us, or is it really about us?
DR. MICHELLE GOLLAND, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I think it`s really about parental choice. And where are the parents falling in line about judgment of what is OK for their girls? You know, are certain tops OK? Are certain skirts OK? And really, even, what are the schools saying is OK?
PINSKY: Well, and one of the defenses I sometimes hear parents fall back on is, well, she really likes this stuff. It`s like, well, wait a minute. She`s 7. And I`m not sure kids should be making those kinds of decisions.
Denise, you say you do let your kid make those decisions, yes? Oh, you`re Denise. I beg your pardon.
Kristin lets her make those sorts of decisions.
KRISTIN LARA, ALLOWS 10-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER TO WEAR MAKEUP: I let her have an influence or an input into what it is she wants to wear.
PINSKY: So that includes -- you said shaving her legs?
LARA: For sure. She is allowed to shave her legs. She has shaved her legs since she was really, really young.
She`s got dark hair, and she was on stage. And her hair shows. And I think that allowing her to do that at a young age was teaching her personal grooming habits. I do not believe that it was, you know, inappropriate at all. I honestly think it`s shocking --
PINSKY: Denise, you disagree?
DENISE WEINSTOCK, OPPOSED TO LITTLE GIRLS DRESSING "SEXY": I think there`s a fine line, because I do understand the need and feeling to have to fit in or to want to fit in. And if you do have dark hair on your legs, it might be quite embarrassing. I think from my point of view, when it comes to Emma, who`s 11 --
PINSKY: That`s your daughter?
WEINSTOCK: My daughter. If she comes to me, for instance, and wants to wear deodorant because some of the other girls are, or wants to wear undergarments because some of the other girls are, I find that to be OK. I do draw the line when it comes to things like plucking eyebrows, things that she --
PINSKY: Makeup?
WEINSTOCK: Makeup, no.
PINSKY: She`s not allowed makeup?
WEINSTOCK: Makeup, you know, there`s a time and a place. When I got married --
PINSKY: Has she showed interest in that?
WEINSTOCK: Yes, she has. And I have told her that the time and place for it is when she`s older. I think right now she`s not, from my point of view, not mature enough to make those decisions.
PINSKY: What if it were a little boy? Michelle and I talked about this off the air. What if it were a little boy and he was interested in spiking his hair up and putting on skater outfits? Would you let him do that if he was 10 years old?
WEINSTOCK: Again, I think there`s a time and a place for everything. At school, absolutely not. If he wanted to maybe do it at home to experiment to see what it would look like, OK.
But appearance is everything. People judge a book by its cover. It`s just simply the way things are. And if you dress a certain way, people are going to think a certain way about you.
PINSKY: Well, that`s part of my -- Michelle, I`m going to give you the next comment. But that`s one of the concerns I have, is that for sure, young girls don`t appreciate the impact some of the dress is having on some people. And they may not grow to understand that as they hit adolescence. But how about --
GOLLAND: I have to say, I find this so interesting. I think as parents and as adults, we can look at certain things and say a 7-year-old or a 5-year-old shouldn`t wear that. I don`t know. You know, stripper shoes --
PINSKY: Well, let`s look at some of this stuff. Here`s some clothes, that it prompted us to have this conversation. I would feel weird if my kid, particularly when she was younger, wore some of this stuff. Even now.
GOLLAND: Well, these are bras. These are for -- OK. My daughter probably has that pink skirt, probably has those shorts, and I would have no problem with my daughter.
That looks more like a dance costume. My daughter wouldn`t wear that because it`s not her style.
And this is where I actually want to talk with you about what I think the other issue is. It`s about identity.
And clothing for girls, if it is not sexualized, is about their identity. My daughter started picking out her clothes at age 2. She looked like Punky Brewster. She looked crazy. But I wasn`t going to make her try to look perfect. I wasn`t going to pick out her things.
PINSKY: All right. We`re going to keep this conversation going.
And certainly understanding a healthy sexual (INAUDIBLE) is critical to development. But timing is the key, right? And I think there are ramifications for your kids, and we really need to have this conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): If you thought lingerie for an 8-year-old was shocking, how about a doll that pushes the envelope even further? Long legs, short skirts, and sexy boots. What in the world ever happened to good-old Barbie?
And later, the queen of daytime steps off the throne. An inside look at a quarter century of a TV reign.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We are talking about the sexualization of little girls in today`s world.
Now, here`s a doll from Mattel. I believe this one is Clawdeen Wolf. Nice, huh? You can see there`s a midriff thing here and there`s like a thong. It`s awesome -- for little girls.
She`s -- by the way, her message is -- I guess on the box -- is "My hair is worthy of a shampoo commercial and my favorite activity is shopping and flirting with boys."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s wonderful.
PINSKY: Really? OK.
And look at this one. This is Cleo de Nile. The schedule on the back of her box includes rating herself for public adoration. Oh, look at that. She has time for a mani-pedi. A stylist comes in at 2:00 to ready. I ready myself for public adoration."
I`m just saying, I`m not so sure that`s the stuff I`d be purchasing for my children. We did give Mattel a chance, however, to respond to this, and they sent us the following statement about the dolls.
They said, "It`s important to remember that adults bring a different set of experiences to the lens one shines on a toy that a child does not. The Monster High dolls are not meant to represent real-life girls. Their exaggerated monster exterior severs as a metaphor to discuss the unique imperfections that we each posses." Girls see female body images today, and it`s critical that parents and caregivers provide perspective on what they`re seeing."
I fully endorse that last statement and adopt it as a principle for our conversation here.
Clinical psychologist and mom Michelle Golland is part of our discussion. So is Kristin Lara. She allows her 10-year-old daughter to wear makeup.
And by way, would these dolls be OK for her?
LARA: I love those dolls.
PINSKY: Well, you`re welcome to have them. There you go.
(LAUGHTER)
LARA: Here`s the other one.
PINSKY: And then Denise Weinstock, who is opposed to the sexualization of little girls.
Denise, you react to those in a different way?
WEINSTOCK: Totally disgusting.
PINSKY: Disgusting?
WEINSTOCK: Disgusting. Women don`t look like this. And if they do, it`s frightening. And the fact that my daughter would look at this and say, this is the way I`m supposed to look, it`s really scary.
I remember Holly Hobbie dolls. I remember dolls that came in all shapes and sizes, except for Barbie, of course.
I want to bring up, I do remember taking my daughter shopping for her Halloween costume this past year. I was disgusted, again, with what I was seeing. Sexy nurse for an 11-year-old. Hot lady bug.
I mean, where --
PINSKY: Well, but isn`t this the problem?
Michelle, it`s not --
GOLLAND: But there are other options. It doesn`t have to be. And when you start looking at teenagers and sexuality, like I have to say, you know, for me, my daughter has Barbie dolls. She plays out all the socialization. I know a lot of mothers who would never even allow Barbie dolls in their house.
PINSKY: Because it says something about gender?
GOLLAND: Because -- but believe me, when their girls come over, they cannot wait to start playing Barbie.
PINSKY: It`s like restricting a kid`s diet in certain ways.
GOLLAND: Absolutely.
PINSKY: It comes out. But this really isn`t the issue.
We have talked a little bit about gender expression and self-identity, but, really, what I want to get at is that those are sexy dolls. It`s the sexualization that we`re having a problem with.
Kristin, do you understand that?
LARA: Yes. And I would like to say, I mean, you remember Holly Hobbie dolls, and you absolutely don`t look like Holly Hobbie. So --
GOLLAND: Exactly. And actually, I was going to say you look a lot more like her than -- and I`m being actually serious, because I think this is a larger discussion, Dr. Drew, that I want to bring --
WEINSTOCK: But I`m 43 years old. My daughter is 11. I`m mature enough to be able to understand the consequences of what I`m wearing and the perception that I`m going to give to people.
PINSKY: Do you fully appreciate how men respond to you guys, really, as women? Do you know how messed up our brains are in terms of how we respond to this stuff?
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The problem is --
PINSKY: You have power.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Power.
PINSKY: And a 9-year-old shouldn`t be wielding that.
WEINSTOCK: And a 9-year-old doesn`t understand the power that that brings.
PINSKY: Interesting.
Michelle?
GOLLAND: But I do not think wearing what is -- and, again, I am not going to go to padded bras for a 7-year-old. Not OK. I believe in if they want to wear a little lip gloss when they reach a certain age, we all have boundaries.
Some people would never pierce their daughter`s ears until they`re 13. Whatever. Everyone has their way to express those boundaries.
PINSKY: Now, you guys, though, you`re sexy women. And you put that out a bit. You`re daughters see that, too.
GOLLAND: Absolutely. And I think what it is, is it is not -- and a comment sort of got alluded to. The fact that my daughter dresses, I don`t consider how she dresses sexy. She dresses trendy. She dresses in style.
PINSKY: But I`m a male, and sexy is what goes on in the male brain.
GOLLAND: But that`s your problem. That`s your problem.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is your problem.
PINSKY: Well, but hang on. This is not by problem, because listen to this study.
There`s a study of the American Psychological Association Task Force who said -- they looked at girls who buy into sexualizing media messages, and they find they are more likely to experience low self-esteem, depression, and eating disorders.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
PINSKY: I mean, come on now.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely.
PINSKY: I`ll see if there`s a study on this -- but the fact is that if you oversexualize a child -- and again, we`re trying to figure out what that really means. We haven`t really established that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely.
PINSKY: It has a negative impact on the girls.
LARA: And I think a lot of that -- I mean, what`s happening now has really only happened within the last five or 10 years probably with the Miley Cyruses and the Disney shows and the outfits.
GOLLAND: I disagree. I actually -- I think data for --
PINSKY: This is your daughter that we`re looking at here, Kristin? Is that your --
LARA: Yes. That`s Amber.
PINSKY: And Michelle, you would say this happens in waves, this happens in trends. I mean, just a more recent trend --
(CROSSTALK)
GOLLAND: My feeling is, I don`t know. Whenever I get on this topic about how people -- how girls, tweens, are dressing, I don`t know.
I remember dressing like Prince and dressing -- you know, I`m a girl of the 80s.
PINSKY: And you admit it?
GOLLAND: Absolutely. But what I`m saying is people were complaining about Elvis shaking his hips, and now we`re worried about Rihanna doing this. It`s about a cultural experience.
PINSKY: Denise is skeptical.
Go, Denise
WEINSTOCK: There is a difference. And my biggest concern -- look, my job is to be her parent. My job is not to be her friend.
But job is to be the line of defense between the entertainment industry that`s throwing all of this stuff at my daughter and telling her she has to be sexy in order to be beautiful. The way I look at it, honestly, I feel most beautiful when I am in a T-shirt and jeans and flip- flops and no makeup. Although your hair and makeup people would probably disagree I look better now. But beauty is from here.
GOLLAND: But we can give both those messages. And I think as women, we are not allowed to own our -- and I`m not talking about little girls. I`m talking about the sociopolitical sexualization panic that happens in our culture.
PINSKY: OK. So --
WEINSTOCK: But these are little girls that we`re talking about.
PINSKY: These are little girls, and I want to ring in a couple of points. I think what you`re saying -- and I think I agree with it -- that is, that we are fearful of female sexuality.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely.
PINSKY: That we make a special issue of it for girls and women. We don`t make an issue when boys are too tough or express things like that.
GOLLAND: No.
PINSKY: And it`s is interesting that we do that, isn`t it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
PINSKY: And it speaks volumes.
GOLLAND: It`s misogynistic, is what it is.
PINSKY: It is misogynistic, but there is an issue to be had here, that this stuff needs to be contained in some way and sort of brought out at a developmentally appropriate age.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely.
PINSKY: And we`re differing where that is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, but that`s judgment --
PINSKY: And I certainly don`t -- and this is what scares me the most. I don`t want this for my daughter, I don`t want this for any of your daughters, to enter adulthood thinking that really determines their worth.
It can be a source of power. It can be a source of fun. But if they believe that`s what they`re worth, and they`re not something more --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On the inside.
PINSKY: And also professionally and educationally, and whatever else it might be, or as a mom, or whatever. It`s not just about the beauty. It has to be integrated into the whole person. And that`s where we started this conversation.
GOLLAND: Absolutely.
LARA: I just think it`s a double standard though. I mean, when you put children in, like, the Mexican Folkloric dancing, they wear eyeliner that`s jet black, red lipstick, their hair is slicked. But that`s OK
PINSKY: Well, it`s --
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But that`s for a particular situation though, not at school.
PINSKY: And I have to take a break, guys. And different cultures deal with this thing differently. And some are quite at ease with it and encourage it, others like us are a little bit more ambivalent about it.
But Kristin, thank you very much.
Denise, well done. Thank you.
Michelle, always a pleasure having you.
GOLLAND: Thank you.
PINSKY: OK. Oprah Winfrey ruled daytime for a quarter-century. She changed TV forever and inspired millions. Some of you have some interesting thoughts about her. I`m going to answer your Oprah questions "On Call" when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: After 25 years, the final episode of "The Oprah Winfrey Show" aired today. Now, she has captured the hearts of millions around the world, a lot of women, and undoubtedly for many this is the end of an era.
Now, we know many of you have a message for her. So let`s get right to the phones.
I`ve got Dina in California.
You`re up first.
DINA, CALIFORNIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Dina.
DINA: I just want to say that I may have not gotten a call, or an all-expense paid trip, or my mortgage paid in full by Oprah. But what I did get from her was worth so much more. I got courage, knowledge, strength, power, pride, honor and wisdom.
Thank you, Oprah.
PINSKY: Wow. Just that, huh?
Brad in New Brunswick, Canada, go ahead.
BRAD, CANADA: Hey, Dr. Drew.
I would just like to congratulate Oprah on a job well done. She has definitely inspired a lot of people over the past 25 years on the air, and I`m sure she`ll continue to inspire even more.
PINSKY: I think you`re absolutely right.
Hibo in Georgia.
What`s up?
HIBO, GEORGIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
I just wanted to say that I love Oprah and I will miss her. Already, I`m crying. Oprah has an incredible heart in what she does.
PINSKY: I wonder what we`re going to do to fill that void for people. You`ve got to do something.
Jeanne in North Carolina.
What do you have to say?
Hey, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hey.
JEANNE: I just want to say that, Oprah, you are a true inspiration. I have watched you since day one when I was 10. You were the one constant positive thing in my life for the past 25 years.
Thank you for the laughs, the tears, the joy, the sorrow, and the wisdom you have bestowed upon us all. My afternoons will never be the same again.
PINSKY: That`s a really -- and thank you for your comments. But that`s an interesting thing here.
I mean, the guys -- well, we heard from one man. And he seemed appreciative. But the women were gushing.
I mean, this is like a big deal for a lot of women. And I hope that whatever she`s inspired in you will continue, and I hope you find something to fill that spot that she may have left behind.
Got a Facebook question from Rachel. She writes, "Oprah was asked if there was someone she wished she had interviewed. She said, yes, but they are not alive." I wonder what that would be. "Is there anyone you wish you could interview?"
Yes, out of the people that are alive. And I have been saying this for a long time, strangely enough, and I`m going to answer the same way now that I answered before the scandal, which is kind of fascinating. But Arnold Schwarzenegger.
I`d like to sit down with that young man. I have heard lots of very interesting things about him. And now we`ve got all of this really tragedy around his family. I`d like to hear what he`s got to say.
And I have always had admiration for him, and I don`t want to lose that. So I`d be very interested to talk to him.
Mike writes, "Oprah said she lost her temper a few times on the air about the subject of child abuse. What subject gets you most fired up?"
And, you know, probably the same thing. I`ve got to say, I mean, I`ve not been a victim of childhood abuse, but it is so common, and it`s something I`m contending with every day and have been in my clinical practice.
Addiction and pharmaceutical, prescription abuse, that`s another big one for me. But, boy, it`s easy to get fired up about victimization of children, because as we say, it`s the gift that keeps on giving. It has a profound effect on everything else that is to follow.
Mary writes, "Tell us about your experience meeting with Oprah."
I met her a couple of times. I have very limited time here. I`ll tell you one thing she did that I thought was so cool.
I was on her show about sex addiction, and we had a woman on who came and told her story for the first time on her show. And Oprah said, "What are you going to do when your child hears this and her friends start teasing her for it?" She said, "Well, it`s in my recovery. I`m going to give it up to God and just hope things work out OK."
And Oprah went to commercial and she told me later -- she said, "We`re not going to air this. She doesn`t understand. Even though it was a fantastic piece, she doesn`t understand the impact it`s going to have on her."
Coming up, we`re going to take a look inside the workings of Oprah`s legendary show, what it`s like to work with her, to be a guest. More importantly, will the network fill her shoes?
After this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPRAH WINFREY, HOST: Each one of you has your own platform. Do not let the trappings here fool you. Mine is a stage in a studio. Yours is wherever you are. With your own reach. However small or however large that reach is, your stage, your circle of influence, that is your talk show. And that is where your power lies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: Well, tonight, "The Oprah Winfrey Show" hit the airwaves for the very last time. Oprah`s final show was today, and many of you are wondering, how are people going to live without Oprah? Her fans are just freaking out. Some are sobbing, some are panicking, some just don`t know what to do. Oprah`s departure is, indeed, going to leave a huge void in many of the lives of her faithful viewers. Her show has been on the air for some 25 years. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: I`m Oprah Winfrey, and welcome to the very first national "Oprah Winfrey Show!"
It will do well. And if it doesn`t, I will still do well. So, I`m not defined by a show.
Did he ever beat you?
Yes.
I`ve never seen you like this!
We can step out of our box and dream America anew again.
I love this show. And I love it enough to know when it`s time to say goodbye.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Well, she`s changed television, but what function does Oprah serve for women? I`m fascinated by that. "Showbiz Tonight`s" Kareen Wynter was outside the Chicago Venue where she was having her last show talking to fans, and Cindy Kienzle was also inside for Oprah`s last show. We`ll be talking to her in just a couple of minutes. And Iyanla Vanzant joins us. She is a relationship expert whose career blossomed having appeared frequently on "The Oprah Winfrey Show." Now, Kareen, I want to start with you. What was the atmosphere like today for the final taping?
KAREEN WYNTER, CORRESPONDENT, HLN`S "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Well, the final taping occurred yesterday. The final show aired today, and the hearts are breaking all across the world. I can tell you that, Dr. Drew. It`s like a bad break-up. We`ve all experienced that. And what are we to do now without our Oprah? Well, the star-studded bash, a spectacular farewell that took place last week at the United Center where Tom Hanks, Tom Cruise, all of Oprah`s legions of fans and celebrity friends, remember when they came out to pay tribute to her?
Well, it was nothing like that for her final show. Oprah did all the talking, doing what she does best. She addressed her audience, a little over 400 people. She had Gayle King, her best friend there. Her partner for many years, Stedman. Maria Shriver was also in the audience. A few other celebs, but it was really Oprah reflecting on the last two decades, thanking the audience for standing by her, talking about all the lessons, all the things that, you know, she`s learned on her journey.
Very, very bittersweet. Of course, it got really emotional. Toward the end of the show, she walked out. She embraced her staff. And she was walking through the hallways of Harpo, and you could just see her releasing at that moment, really just embracing everyone who had stood by her. And the most heartfelt part, Dr. Drew, was when she picked her little dog, Sadie, her beloved dog, walked into her office, kicked off her heels, and said we did it, you know?
So, America, it`s this love affair we`ve had with this incredible woman who we`ve all connected with, so many different levels, and it`s sad to see her end this chapter. But, you know, she has bigger and better things. She`s launched her brand-new network. We`ll have to see if people tune in for that.
PINSKY: Well, Kareen, thank you for that report. I see by the shine, the sparkle in your eye, that you were one of the disciples of Oprah. And I`m sorry that she`s going to be out of your life for the moment, anyway. And one thing is for sure, Oprah --
WYNTER: Heart is aching tonight.
PINSKY: I can see it in your face. People sure -- she sure got a reaction out of people. I want you to look at this from Harpo Productions.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WINFREY: You get a car! You get a car! You get a car! You get a car! You get a car! You get a car! You get a car! You get a car! Everybody gets a car! It`s my favorite things! Ho, ho, ho! Oh, yes! Oh, yes! Oh, yes! Oh, yes! Oh, yes!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Was that the Oprah show or one of the "Saturday Night Live" skits that took aim at it repeatedly? Iyanla, I know you`ve been a friend of hers for quite some time. I have a question, which is, you know, as a male watching this phenomenon, it`s a little bit mysterious. She seems to really dig deep into women and women`s needs. What is that that she`s tapped into?
IYANLA VANZANT, RELATIONSHIP EXPERT, OPRAH GUEST: Well, I think it`s that she`s very authentic and intimate with her own imperfections. I mean, we`ve watched her with her weight struggle. She`s talked about her challenges with relationships. She`s talked about her family. So, she made it OK for you to be not so OK. And as women, so many of us feel that there`s this or that about us that isn`t OK. And then, if she can be like we are, then, you know, it must mean that we`re doing pretty good.
PINSKY: And you had kind of an interesting story with her where you were one of her sort of -- she was developing you, and then, she kind of cut you off. How did that feel to be like so abruptly cut off like that?
VANZANT: Well, for me, it felt like abandonment. It felt like I had done something wrong. And I had upset people. And I was being punished for it. You know, and that was my lesson at the time.
PINSKY: Well, but I`m going to say, let me just say, and maybe this is a little bit sacrilegious to the converts, but you were just looking out for your own needs. I mean, that`s OK. Couldn`t you have still remained your friends then?
VANZANT: Well, what happened was there was a miscommunication on both of our parts. And a misunderstanding on both of our parts. That is what created the upset, because as I said on her show, I didn`t leave Oprah to go to another show. I didn`t have a deal. I didn`t have a contract. What created the rift was what she understood me to be saying to her and what I understood her to be saying to me. And it was a miscommunication.
PINSKY: I`ve got it. I actually read the transcript of your interview, and that`s indeed what both of you said. Let me frame this Oprah experience a different way and see what your thoughts are on this. I almost feel like, particularly, for women, Oprah is like the third grade awakening. You know, in America, we`ve been through two great awakenings, and they were of a religious evangelical nature, but Oprah has had that quality for women. Do you agree with that?
VANZANT: Yes. I think it`s a third and the fourth generation on two levels. Number one, for me, as a woman of color, to see another woman of color be in the world and be accepted and do such good work. That`s a phenomenal thing. And number two, as a woman, you know, I think Oprah`s theme song could be, "I`m Every Woman," because she looked at the issues, talked about the issues, that many of us wouldn`t even talk about to ourselves or our family.
She made it public. She made it OK, and, she gave us something to do about it. And I think that that was the piece that was so endearing to everyone. She was intimate. And I define intimate as into me see. So, she allowed us to see into ourselves, and she allowed us to see into her and made it OK.
PINSKY: Iyanla, I want to tell you, that`s probably the best articulation I`ve ever heard of the function she served. Would it be accurate to say that a male could not have served that function?
VANZANT: No. No, I don`t believe a male could have.
PINSKY: Yes, I think you`re right.
VANZANT: I think you come pretty close, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Oh, Iyanla, God bless you. God bless you, I`ve got to reach through and hug you. That`s so kind of you. But that really into me see I completely agree with you. And I`m not so sure people -- what`s interesting to me is I`m not sure if people wanted to see into everybody, but they sure did want to see into her and share in all of our foibles and imperfections as a human.
Oprah serves as an inspiration for many, and for one in particular, here`s a woman who I have on the phone named Cindy who was inspired to lose 100 pounds, and you were actually there at the event today, is that right, Cindy?
VOICE OF CINDY KIENZLE, OPRAH INSPIRED HER TO LOSE 100 POUNDS: I wasn`t there today, Dr. Drew, but I was there the other night for her surprise spectacular, which was really electrifying.
PINSKY: Got it. How did she have that kind of impact on you, where she was like your bottom, where you finally decided you were going to have a moment of change?
KIENZLE: Well, you know what, when she said her own weight on TV and she weighed 237 pounds, and I weighed exactly the same, and she had actually lost weight when she told the world what she had weighed, and I thought if she could do it, I can do it. And I think exactly what you`ve been saying is that through sharing her own experiences, she has invited people to sort of reveal their own secrets without feeling any shame.
It`s OK for her to say, you know what, I weigh 237 pounds, and tell the world. And you know, you don`t have to be -- she`s Oprah. She has impacted so many people`s lives. And no matter what your history or no matter what your size or your weight, you can still dream and you can still live your -- an authentic life and live your passion.
PINSKY: Well, Cindy, I hope that continues to carry you throughout your life. We`re actually looking at footage of the final show here as you`re talking. I want to thank you, Cindy. I`m fascinated by moments of change and how people changed and the fact that Oprah helped people change. I think we all deserve her a big thank you for that.
I also want to thank Iyanla. I`ll be out to D.C. to give you a big hug soon.
VANZANT: Thank you.
PINSKY: (INAUDIBLE) And Kareen, thank you for joining us as well as giving us that great report. I appreciate it. We`ll see you back here at CNN.
Now, Oprah is one source of inspiration for many. You`re about to meet another, a reality star. He is an inspiration doing what he can to cure disease.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Multiple sclerosis. Every hour, someone is diagnosed, maybe someone you know and love. This hour, we`re introducing you to a survivor coping with the disease and a crusader fighting for a cure. "Amazing Race" host, Phil Keoghan joins us next.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a once in a lifetime opportunity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again.
PHIL KEOGHAN, "AMAZING RACE" HOST: Hans and Vincent (ph), I`m sorry to tell you you have been eliminated from the rest of --
You are the first team to arrive.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my God!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): You all know him as the TV host who races around the world like a maniac, creating amazing experiences for contestants and fans. The "Amazing Race`s" Phil Keoghan is here. And, I want people to be aware that today is "World Multiple Sclerosis Day. Now, in an effort to bring awareness to MS, Phil actually produced a film called "The Ride." He documented his bike journey from L.A. to New York raising more than half a million dollars in the process. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEOGHAN: This was going to be the biggest physical and mental challenge of my life.
(CHANTING) Five, four, three, two, one --
KEOGHAN: A 3,500 mile bike ride from L.A. across America, creating awareness and raising money for the MS cause was just one part of the ride.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Also joining me is Melissa Glasser. She is a mother of four, and she actually has had multiple sclerosis for many years, and we`re going to hear from her about what it`s been like, how she`s dealt with it. But first, I want to start with Phil and ask, what made you do this? I bet you wondered that a few times along the way too.
KEOGHAN: I did. Well, I got involved with the MS movement about five years ago when I took part in a bike MS event, because I think they`re fantastic events. There`s a great energy. And then, when I was turning 40, I have this life list that I live by. And I thought, I need to take on the biggest physical and mental challenge of my life, turning 40, because everybody was telling me I was going to have this mid life crisis.
PINSKY: Did you?
KEOGHAN: No, thankfully. I got past it. But I decided that, you know, I know how to ride a bicycle. And I know it`s a long way from L.A. to New York. So, I got on my bike and I started riding. We went with my dad. We went my best friend. Wanted it to be this real pilgrimage and go out and, you know, really push myself physically and mentally.
And I thought, rather than hanging out with some guys, you know, in 10 years time and having a beer saying, oh, yes, I rode across America, I felt that there was a real need to do it for a greater cause, and I chose MS as my cause that I support. So, we set about raising $250,000 during the ride. We hit that halfway through, and we got to a half million, and my ultimate goal is that we`ll get to $1 million.
PINSKY: Had you had some personal experience with MS that sort of led to you choosing MS?
KEOGHAN: You know, I didn`t.
PINSKY: Well, you had a cousin or something, right?
KEOGHAN: Right, but I found all of that out after I got caught up in the MS movement through the bike rides. That`s the irony of the whole thing. Now, I found out that I do have a family member who has MS, who happens to be a television host in New Zealand who hosts a fishing show, who was diagnosed in 1997, who ended up in a wheelchair and refused to let MS define him, and continues to host the show to this day.
So, I`ve become inspired by him after I really got caught up in the MS movement here.
PINSKY: Well, MS is one of these diseases where the research and the treatment has really moved along rapidly. And I know my own patients, once certain treatments came along in the mid 1990s, it was an entirely different situation. I mean, it was really bad news before that. Now, people can live normal lives with minimal symptoms. Melissa, you seem great. Tell us how it`s manifested, how you`ve had to deal with it.
MELISSA GLASSER, MOTHER SUFFERING FROM MS: It manifests differently depending on the day. So, you kind of wake up in the morning and you think, OK, what`s it going to be like today?
PINSKY: Well, let`s explain to people what it`s like. I mean, because as a physician, I can tell you, it`s what are called plaques in the brain. Little patches where the immune system attacks the myelin sheaths of nerve for people wondering what MS is, and it just takes out little pieces of your nervous system from your spine to the tip of your head. So, you may one day have weakness on one side of your body.
GLASSER: Right.
PINSKY: Next day, blindness in one eye. Next day, bladder problems. Is this all stuff you`ve experienced?
GLASSER: I did lose the sight in this eye, and then, (INAUDIBLE) it came back.
PINSKY: It came back. Yes. Again, with the medicines and with the treatment, it can come right back.
GLASSER: Yes. And then, I lost it in the other eye. And vertigo, numbness in different parts of your body.
PINSKY: Is it scary when you get these attacks?
GLASSER: It`s scary, because you don`t know where it`s going to go.
PINSKY: MS has this wonderful quality to it that no one can explain called bell indifference (ph), which is -- you know what I`m talking about?
KEOGHAN: No.
PINSKY: It`s that MS patients maintain this extraordinarily positive attitude about their illness.
KEOGHAN: You`re actually right about that.
PINSKY: Yes.
KEOGHAN: You are right about that. I noticed this on my ride. And I think that`s one of the reasons I have got so passionate about it. You know, Melissa and I actually know each other. We didn`t know that we were going to be on the show with you today until this morning, but I have found that everywhere I went on my ride across America, this extraordinary -- have you found that too, Melissa?
GLASSER: Yes.
PINSKY: Well, it`s part of the condition. It`s got a name. It`s called bell indifference (ph). People with part of their body not working, that`s just my MS we`re going to get -- we`re going to move on, right? Is that how you feel about it?
GLASSER: It is how you feel because that`s how you get to the next day, right? It`s an obstacle at the time. It`s just the bump. So, the question is not how is it going to go away, but how do you get over the bump, because you`re going to get over it.
PINSKY: Well, and it`s got to be extra stressful as a mom, is it not?
GLASSER: It does --
PINSKY: How has it affected you as a mom?
GLASSER: Well, as a mom, I chose to become a mom, I wanted to be a certain kind of mom.
PINSKY: You already had MS?
GLASSER: I did.
PINSKY: Yes.
GLASSER: I did, and it wasn`t going to stop me because I wanted to have children, but I wanted to be a soccer mom. I wanted to be there for my kids at their school plays. I wanted to be involved. And so, when you wake up in the morning and you can`t use your hands or you can`t pick up your child, it`s hard.
AND it`s not the mom that I wanted to be. And, you know, you feel sorry for yourself for a day, and then you say, OK, but I can be that mom. I just have to modify it.
PINSKY: Does it scare your kids?
GLASSER: No, but my daughter -- she had an open house last week and she had written a poem that she read to me, and it was all about if she couldn`t fail, and it was that she would have a day where my mom wouldn`t have to give herself a shot anymore, because they`re all a part of it. And they`ve always watched me give my shots.
PINSKY: It`s very intense. I`m so glad you have glommed onto this one. It really does make a difference. Any parting thoughts about what you`ve learned or what you wish for the future for this?
KEOGHAN: Well, I have a very exciting future in terms of awareness. I have just teamed up with Nevada`s Pharmaceutical Corporation to put together a professional women`s cycling team that will race in the top bike races across the country and also team up with MS patients around the country at bike MS events on tandem bicycles to create even more awareness.
PINSKY: When will it start? When will we look for that?
KEOGHAN: We just launched yesterday. I was in New York yesterday doing all the press -- and it`s perfect timing with World MS Awareness Day.
PINSKY: Phil, thank you. Good to see you as always.
KEOGHAN: Thank you.
PINSKY: Melissa, congratulations. Well done.
Now, breaking news next. Elizabeth Smart is confronting her kidnapper face-to-face in court. That is up next for us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: OK. We have some breaking news for you tonight. This was a long time in coming for Elizabeth Smart. You all know her as the girl who was kidnapped from her bed almost nine years ago, held captive for months by Brian David Mitchell. She confronted him in court just hours ago at his sentencing. She told him she remembers exactly what he did, and she knows that he knows it was wrong. So watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELIZABETH SMART, KIDNAPPED WHEN SHE WAS 14 YEARS OLD: I would once again just like to express my gratitude to everyone that ever prayed for me, that ever searched for me, that ever put in time thinking about me, that made an effort to help bring me home. I am deeply, deeply grateful, truly from the bottom of my heart. I am so grateful to everyone. And for the wonderful outcome that has happened today.
Like my dad said, I am so thrilled with the results that came out today. The life sentence. I couldn`t be happier. Not only am I happy that I had this result, but today is, as my dad said, National Missing Children`s Day. And so, I would encourage and I would ask parents and everyone everywhere to continue to pray for those children who are still missing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It really is good to see her looking so great. And Mitchell is not getting out of prison ever. Here`s the U.S. attorney.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARLIE CHRISTENSEN, U.S. ATTORNEY FOR UTAH: Judge Campbell has imposed a sentence of life imprisonment on Brian David Mitchell. Our office, of course, is very pleased by this result. We believe it is an appropriate, just, and long overdue result for our community, for the Smart Family, and of course, most importantly, Elizabeth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I`m stating the obvious to say that Elizabeth is a poised, lovely young woman who has dealt privately with issues that, boy, anyone would have after such trauma, but she has said very publicly that she does not want to allow this event to define her. She is a survivor.
MICHELLE GOLLAND, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Absolutely.
And psychologist, Michelle Golland, is back with me, but, you know, she looks great. It`s such a relief to see her looking so good, but I don`t want the sort of world and the press to be too Pollyanna-ish about this. Somebody who`s been through that kind of chronic trauma that she`s been leaves an effect on your brain, and it needs treatment to resolve.
GOLLAND: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think what we need to understand when we`re dealing with trauma victims and I work with my clients that are trauma victim is that it happens to -- when you`re dealing with trauma, you deal with the event, and you deal with your time --
PINSKY: You survive.
GOLLAND: You survive. But at different moments in her life, this event will rear its head, when she`s getting married, when she`s having a child, how she feels when she has her children. And that`s not a judgment upon her. It`s for people who have experienced trauma to understand that it is an ongoing process of recovery and resiliency.
PINSKY: Yes. And I hope she`s getting help, because, again, --
GOLLAND: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Treatment does work for these kinds of things, but without it, these things become intractable. They`re start having panic attacks. I mean, they suffer by just trying to sort of distance themselves from the trauma rather than really incorporating it into their emotional regulation.
GOLLAND: Absolutely. And then that can be a problem with the detachment that can occur.
PINSKY: Which I saw a little bit of that in her. She`s a little disconnected, but still, remarkable, remarkable. And thank God, she`s in the condition she`s in. Thank you, Michelle.
Now, as Elizabeth said, today is National Missing Children`s Day. Elizabeth Smart story has a happy ending. She came home. Others may not. So, parents, please be vigilant. Kids, be aware. Let`s keep all our children safe tonight, and remember her story. Hers is a good one. They don`t all end up that way, unfortunately.
Thank you for watching. We`re going to see you next time.
END
