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Dr. Drew
Casey Anthony`s Father: Victim or Monster?
Aired May 26, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: All right. Here we go.
Arnold Schwarzenegger and John Edwards, a tale of two cheaters. Why should we care? I`m going to tell you why.
Then, you won`t believe this. An entire town and its teens threatened by addiction.
Plus, a Lindsay Lohan update.
And Casey Anthony`s dad. Is he a victim, a monster, or maybe something else? I`ve got a theory.
So let`s get started.
Arnold Schwarzenegger and John Edwards say they didn`t do it. That is, use your money to cover up what they admit to, which is cheating on their wives. This has been a nonstop news cycle this week.
Watch this and then we`ll talk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARBARA WALTERS, "THE VIEW": Both of their problems is sex. More men have done more damage to themselves either out of greed for money or sex.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Arnold Schwarzenegger`s baby mama drama just got a whole lot more complicated.
ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: CNN has learned an indictment or a plea deal could come within days. That has his lawyers slamming the Justice Department.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two sources familiar with the case said the Justice Department is on the brink of indicting Edwards for payments that his campaign allegedly made to his mistress, Rielle Hunter, to cover up their affair. Edwards` lawyer says there is no bases for the charges.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Well, here`s some more. A Telemundo exclusive. They have an interview with the half-sister of the boy allegedly fathered by Schwarzenegger.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKIE ROZO, MILDRED BAENA`S DAUGHTER: It doesn`t matter what any newspaper says or anything because, you know, I know my mom and, you know, her friends and her family, we all know her. We know the Mildred, so the Mildred that they put out there is, like -- it`s just, you know, gossip, rumors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This whole thing is really very, very sad. And there`s one thing that kind of interests me behind the entire sort of scope of this story, which is the issue of trust and us as an audience and a country.
You know, we elected one person governor, and despite there being some reports about questionable behavior, we could have also elected the other, who seemed, you know, really, like, well put together, and we see him with his family and with a cancer-stricken wife. And then we blame them when there`s some real credible evidence and misbehaviors.
I don`t know. There`s a strange thing going on where we, as consumers and voters and media consumers, particularly, don`t necessarily know how to assess people.
I have the good fortune of knowing lots of people that sort of work on television, work in this town. And I`ve noticed now with the advent of Twitter that people love to take potshots at people that are really great people, really nice, wonderful people. And yet we seem to admire and elevate people that, you know, have questionable histories and stuff, and then we get mad at them when they disappoint us.
I don`t have a solution for this. I don`t quite know what we need to do, except to kind of raise an awareness. And really, I`m as guilty as anyone else. I do the same thing. Even though I have special training in this, too, by the way.
But I don`t have any solutions right now. But it`s something I kind of want to raise the issue of and think about it as a starting point for, who do we trust in the media and why? And how do we assess people?
We don`t even -- I don`t know. We treat people like cartoon characters sometimes. And I think that`s a mistake. We have to be a little bit more thoughtful about all the media we consume. And that`s a pertinent issue to what I`m about to talk about, which is the Casey Anthony trial.
Now, this is another situation where it is difficult to figure out who`s telling the truth and who we should trust.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she ever tell you that her daughter was missing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she ever tell you that her daughter had been kidnapped?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she ever tell you that while you were out in classes, she was out looking for her daughter?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she ever tell you that her daughter had been kidnapped?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That she was missing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That while you were at school she was actively looking for her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you saw the defendant, on June 18th of 2008, did she tell you that her daughter was missing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This is testimony today. Tonight, day three of the trial, Casey`s dad, George Anthony, is back on the stand.
Now, for three days this man has been sitting in the courtroom while his daughter accuses him of horrific sexual abuse. Now, I don`t think we`re ever going to know what the truth is, but a witness today testified Casey said, "Oh my god, I`m such a good liar," which I think we`ve all kind of seen.
Is the abuse now the reason she`s such a good liar? Because that does happen. Is she a hardened criminal engaged in really the lowest of the low, blaming her dad, throwing him under the bus, for the death of her daughter to save himself?
Could George really have been a part of some elaborate cover-up?
Look at his emotion here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee Marie -- hey, look.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do you have to say about the new theory that Caylee might be dead and it might have been an accident?
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Shut up! Shut up!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Now, this is a man who lost his baby granddaughter and may be losing his daughter. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You loved your granddaughter more than anything in the world?
ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you would have done anything to help find her?
ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you love your daughter more than anything in the world?
ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you would do anything to protect her?
ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is your baby?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Wow. It`s just so hard to assess these things. I think I heard more emotion in relation to his daughter than the granddaughter. But is he the monster the defense team is painting him out to be?
Joining me now is criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos in the studio. I also have also got bounty hunter Leonard Padilla, who was involved in the case since the beginning.
Leonard, thanks for joining us.
And host of "In Session" on truTV, Ryan Smith. He is in Orlando.
Ryan, what is the latest today?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Well, Dr. Drew, it has been quite a day in the courtroom. And what`s happening is the prosecution has continued with its timeline argument.
They`re trying to show this is how Casey acted in the days before her daughter`s death, as the defense says -- it might be that date, June 16th - - and then afterwards. And it centered a lot on George Anthony today, because about nine days after Caylee went missing, there was a break-in at the house.
Somebody broke into the shed and took gas cans. The defense took on George Anthony, and they basically went into the argument process of, hey, did you know that she took these cans? You called the police, but you didn`t say anything about a daughter being missing.
George Anthony went back and forth and said, "I didn`t know my granddaughter was missing at the time." But the problem in all this is that the prosecution, on the one hand, says, George Anthony didn`t know anything about this. He was looking for his granddaughter, and Casey Anthony is cold-blooded and was covering up and saying nothing to anyone, while the defense is saying George Anthony knew all along, and he was doing things and saying things to try to cover himself and expose his daughter to problems.
And they went back and forth on this, Dr. Drew. They really -- some would say the defense attorney, Jose Baez, really grilled George Anthony on this.
So it depends on credibility at this point. If you believe George Anthony, you believe that he`s a man who didn`t know anything about Caylee`s disappearance and he was simply trying to answer questions. If you believe the defense and Jose Baez, this is a man being evasive on the stand, trying to throw his daughter under the bus, and really knew all along that Caylee`s death was an accident but was trying to cover it up to save himself.
PINSKY: Ryan, thank you for that report.
I want to now go to Leonard and just ask a very simple question.
You`ve been around these people since the beginning. Who`s lying? Who`s lying here? Can you tell us? Do you have any sense of that?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER: Casey.
PINSKY: Casey`s lying?
PADILLA: Casey`s lying. She doesn`t -- she lies when she doesn`t even have to. She`s just lying.
George is a poor, pathetic husband trying to make a marriage work. And Cindy is a half nut trying to run the roost, rule it like with a tight fist, and everything`s OK, there`s nothing wrong.
George had no understanding that the child was missing from the last time he was with her until the body turned up. He didn`t know what was going on. All he knew was what was told to him by Cindy and how he was told to act.
When the cops came there -- excuse me, when the cops came on the 15th, and it was out in the open that she was missing, that`s when George started falling apart. I talked to him personally. My partner Rob talked to him personally away from Cindy, and the stories that he told us at that time were quite different than the ones he went public with.
He was just an upset, almost insane man most of the time. He`s not lying. He`s not lying.
PINSKY: Wow. Interesting. Interesting.
Mark, help me make sense of this.
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I don`t know that you can make sense of it. I mean, I don`t even know that I make sense of what you were just told by that guest. So, I mean, on one hand, he`s saying the guy didn`t know anything, he`s -- the wife`s a half nut.
PINSKY: That he lied about stuff.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: Then he said lied about stuff, but the stories change. So I -- you know, I think you have to do what the jurors are sworn to do, which is keep an open mind, listen to all the evidence, and then weigh it.
The problem with a case like this -- and I see it so often, and it`s kind of the prosecutor`s argument du jour now in these trials -- is she didn`t act right evidence. That somewhere there`s a playbook of how you`re supposed to act when your child is missing, or if there`s a death, and she either partied afterwards or didn`t party afterwards. And that kind of evidence, that really doesn`t tell you anything.
And the fact that she may be a liar, that`s fine. But you deal with people who have pathology all the time. Liars don`t necessarily commit murder.
PINSKY: Yes, that`s exactly right.
Actually, we`re watching footage, exclusive HLN footage here of Caylee`s 2nd birthday, I guess that is right there.
Yes, that`s absolutely the point, that people with all kinds of pathology lie. Addicts like --
GERAGOS: It`s like definition of what the pathology is and how it manifests himself.
PINSKY: That`s exactly right.
GERAGOS: So this idea that somehow, we`re going to then say, OK, convict somebody -- and, you know, it`s unfortunate, because in the law, most jury instructions say if you lie about something, one thing, you can disregard all the testimony. That may be true, but it`s when you lie about one specific thing that has to do with the case. If you`re talking about - -
PINSKY: We`ve got to get to the evidence, bottom line.
Coming up, we will continue with the Casey Anthony trial. Serious allegations against George by his daughter in front of millions. Did his reaction give anything away? We`ll talk about that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: No, sir, I never had any Duct tape. I never knew of anything that happened to Caylee until our lives started to unfold on July 15, 2008, and when Caylee was found on December 11th.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: It`s day three of the Casey Anthony murder trial. The defense is still trying to pin this crime on Casey`s dad, George.
Now, you look at this and tell me, does this man seem like someone who`s lying to investigators?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: I got within three feet of my daughter`s car, and the worst odor that you could possibly smell in this world -- and I`ve smelled that odor before -- it smelled like a decomposed body. I`m being very straight with you guys.
I got a sick feeling for a second because the car was all closed up. And from me to you, away from it, and you could smell an odor, you don`t forget that odor, no matter what it is. You never, ever forget it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark Geragos is a criminal defense attorney. I kind of believe him there. What do you think about it?
GERAGOS: I have the opposite direction.
PINSKY: Oh, really? OK. Interesting.
GERAGOS: I have the opposition reaction. You`ve got a daughter who`s just a little bit younger than mine.
PINSKY: Yes.
GERAGOS: As a father, if my daughter is suspected of a crime, not talking as a lawyer, as a father, I`m not going to be in there telling the police I was in her car, the car smells like death, and pointing the direction of my daughter. I find that to be suspect.
PINSKY: Well, and I guess the fact is he would know that because he was a detective, wasn`t he?
GERAGOS: Right. He`s saying, based on my experience -- he`s opining. He doesn`t have somebody cross-examining him to get this out. He`s volunteering to the cops, hey, you better start to look better at my daughter.
That to me sounds suspect to begin with. As a father, you couldn`t tie me down and get me to say that about my daughter.
PINSKY: That`s an interesting point. The average listener or viewer really wouldn`t know that that`s what he was doing. But you`re right, if you knew that as a detective, as a father you would not do that.
GERAGOS: As he`s sitting there, he knows there`s a camera up in the corner there. He knows that this is going to be played somewhere else for somebody.
He`s laying her out. And he`s doing it as, oh, I`m so pained to have you tell you this. But that wasn`t just -- let me tell you something, that wasn`t just an odor, that was an odor of death. I mean, give me a break.
PINSKY: He had an opinion.
Leonard Padilla, you`re the bounty hunter that`s been around this. You tell us how you interpret what we just saw there? Do you agree with Mark?
PADILLA: Well, let me tell you this -- I have a J.D., I went to law school, and I certainly wouldn`t let my daughter off the hook by lying for her. I never raised her that way and I wouldn`t start when she was older.
If there`s a death smell in a car, I`m going to state it so. I`m not going to have law enforcement going around chasing their tail. That`s wrong, to tell America that you would lie for your daughter. I`d never do it.
PINSKY: Leonard, let me ask you something.
GERAGOS: Well, that`s good, Leonard. I`m sure your daughter is sending you a thank you note. You`ll have fun with her on Father`s Day.
PADILLA: Why don`t you call her and ask her yourself? I have got grandchildren.
GERAGOS: I `m sure. I`ll do that right at the next commercial break.
PADILLA: I don`t want them to think that I would do that.
GERAGOS: Well, how do you know that this guy didn`t set her up at this point? Don`t you find this whole thing to be suspect to some degree?
The guy`s coming in there. According to you, at least, he didn`t know that there was -- that she was missing. The granddaughter`s missing for nine days.
That`s a pretty close relationship. Wouldn`t you say?
PADILLA: But you don`t know that Casey was always lying about where she was with her daughter. She used to stay with all those guys, every day, every night. Those parents are both working.
GERAGOS: Who would take care of the granddaughter when she`s staying with those guys every day and every night?
PADILLA: She took her to bed with them. She put her in the same bed.
GERAGOS: Oh, she took her to bed with them.
PADILLA: Yes.
GERAGOS: And you know about that because the grandfather knew, and the grandfather loved the granddaughter so much, he let her sleep with his daughter and her boyfriends?
PADILLA: The grandfather didn`t know that.
GERAGOS: This is a great family.
PADILLA: Casey was always telling the parents that she was with a baby-sitter.
GERAGOS: So if the grandfather didn`t know it, how did you find out about it? Is this mental telepathy of some kind?
PADILLA: Don`t get smart with me.
PINSKY: Hold on. Hold on a second, buddy. Hold on.
I appreciate both of your opinions.
I want to bring in Susan Constantine, who`s a body language expert.
Susan, do you have read on what`s going on? We`re trying to sort of find out where the truth is and we`re having some difficulty. Can you shed some light on this for us?
SUSAN CONSTANTINE, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: OK. First of all, we have to define, what is a liar? A liar knows the truth and deliberately misleads people to believe something to be what is true -- untrue. So let`s talk about this. OK?
I have watched George from the very beginning. I`ve watched all these tapes. I`ve went through them, sifted through them with a microscope.
George Anthony is truthful. He`s a father. He -- I believe he laid down the fact that he was the grandfather to this grandbaby and that he smelled a decomposed body. He was just basically saying, hey, something`s not right here. He was being truthful and he was being honest.
PINSKY: And that`s based not just the nature of lying, but on his body language, in your expertise?
CONSTANTINE: Exactly. You know, I listened to -- and let me refresh -- I took all of his statements and had them analyzed by Dr. Pennybaker (ph). And he and both Cindy Anthony came up clean as a whistle in all their statements in their depositions and all of the statements that they gave.
PINSKY: All right.
During jailhouse phone calls, Casey insisted Caylee had been kidnapped by a nanny named Zanny. Nice rhyme there.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: What message do you want me to give to Zanny and to Caylee? What do you want me to tell Zanny?
CASEY ANTHONY, DEFENDANT: That she needs to return Caylee. I forgive her.
CINDY ANTHONY: What do you think her reasons are?
CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t know.
CINDY ANTHONY: OK.
CASEY ANTHONY: I forgive her. My only concern is that Caylee comes back to us, and she`s smiling, and she`s happy, and that she`s -- that she`s OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I find those conversations so bizarre, don`t you, Mark? They change with time. And they all know they`re being recorded.
GERAGOS: They all know they`re being recorded. They do change with time.
Part of that is because when you`re in custody, you become institutionalized. You then are getting -- depending on whether they filed the case and what they`ve given you in discovery, you`re aware of what the reports are.
(CROSSTALK)
GERAGOS: But you do have to say something to your audience. I mean, that woman Susan, who was your guest, and who seems like a wonderful lady and everything else, nothing she just told you would ever get into a court of law. There is no such thing as admissible evidence about body language.
And when they say, I sent it out to somebody and it came back clean as a whistle, OK, that`s great for cable TV. That has absolutely no relationship to a court of law.
PINSKY: Got it.
GERAGOS: That has nothing to do with evidence.
PINSKY: Leonard, I`ll give you the last comment. We have, like, 10 seconds. What have you got to say?
PADILLA: Well, first of all, if you take into consideration that Casey`s absolutely insane, and start with that, you might have a better understanding of what this whole case is about.
PINSKY: OK. Well, insanity pleas I don`t know have come up yet. But she`s certainly a liar. We`ve got that down. I don`t know who else is lying here, but all kinds of crazies.
I want to thank my guests.
Thank you, Susan.
Thank you, Leonard.
Thank you, Mark, for joining us.
Next, men in power. Top candidates lead double lives. Are they? Why? I`ll take your questions and comments about Edwards and Schwarzenegger.
Then, a town consumed by drug addiction.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Well, now I think we can all agree that it has not been the best of weeks for either Mr. Schwarzenegger or Mr. Edwards. And a lot of you have been talking about it, so let me get to the phones.
I`ve first got Sharon from Massachusetts.
What`s up?
SHARON, MASSACHUSETTS: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Sharon.
SHARON: This comment covers both Arnold Schwarzenegger and John Edwards. I believe that just because they both have political power of some kind does not give them the right to abuse that power in any way. And with that said, I also believe that they should be investigated and brought to justice if found guilty, just like any other American.
PINSKY: I think most of our viewers would agree with you.
Lorinda from Tennessee, go ahead.
LORINDA, TENNESSEE: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Hi, Lorinda.
LORINDA: I feel sure Schwarzenegger used his public funds to support his enthusiasm for women and reproducing with those women. He was handed a golden ticket with Maria Shriver. Maria is a part of U.S. royalty, politically. And when Arnold married her, he became part of that royalty.
PINSKY: Well, you have a point, that his enthusiastic indiscretions make us angry, particularly when it hurt Maria. But I`m not sure we can say he did anything inappropriate with funds, unless that has been proven.
We have a question from Susan. She writes, "I`ve heard most extramarital affairs don`t begin for sexual reasons, they begin for emotional ones. Do you agree?"
Well, the reality is -- and I have to tell you from years and years of working with people on this, that for women, that is categorically true. Women, when they`re not getting their emotional needs met, will begin to sort of set up a bullpen.
Rhoda (ph), I know you do that all the time. You set up your bullpen.
She says yes.
Set up a bullpen and sort of have guys sort of feeding their emotional needs. And if they really -- and they warn their spouses and mates usually. And the guys, when the woman finally does cheat, go, I can`t believe it, all of a sudden. And they go, I`ve been warning them for years that he was just not available the way I needed him to be.
Men can do the same thing, but men break down a little bit differently. Men are sort of -- when they feel they can get away with it, or if they`re tending to be cheaters, or in the addict alcoholic sort of camp, that`s when you see the men cheat.
Annie asked, "In a relationship, why is it conversation is so important to women and not so much to men?"
And I must tell you, we did a show on this just -- I believe it was two weeks ago -- and the categorical reality is that our brains are structured differently. For men, arousal and drive are connected. They`re one biological process. For women, arousal and drive are a little bit disconnected, and they have more arousal and drive in response to something called intimate conversation.
Think back to when you were a young adolescent and how you needed to talk all the time. That was when that drive was at its highest. That`s the difference right there. It`s all showing up on what I`ll call functional MRI scans that people are studying right now.
And here, Mike asked, "What is the worst thing you see happen when men in power`s narcissism isn`t matched by a healthy dose of humility?"
That is a really great question. I`ve actually studied celebrities with narcissistic problems and they`re very common. Obviously, men in power tend to have narcissistic tendency. This is a need to get something from the world to keep them feeling good about themselves. And, of course, positions of authority does that.
Humility, you`re right. When we`re treating people in those sorts of conditions, humility and honesty are the key ingredients in getting real and getting better. It really is.
And so you can be a narcissist, but narcissists can have humility, and then all those liabilities don`t come through from the narcissism.
Up next, the fight against our pill-popping nation. But it`s too late already for some people. It`s a serious problem and it`s got to be addressed now.
And later, my take on Lindsay Lohan`s house arrest.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Up next, police raiding doctors` offices. Substances banned in widespread legislation, but this isn`t about pot, cocaine or heroin. This is about prescription medication. One state is taking a stand after a whole town`s teens became hooked.
And later, there`s no place like home. Lindsay Lohan is now under house arrest after turning herself in to police earlier today. Is this the answer? Can she turn her life around and is this her last chance? I will explain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): All right. This next topic, it really affects me deeply because it is my profession that`s contributing to this. Prescription drug abuse. It is now the number one cause of fatal overdoses in the United States. It`s a massive problem. It`s particularly young people. And I`m about to lose another patient, today, I believe, to prescription drug abuse. And I laid down on the tracks multiple times to try to help him, and each time, there was somebody there ready to prescribe opiates to a severe addict.
That is somebody who`s going to die. Addiction is a fatal illness. When you give addicts opiates and benzodiazepine, they will die. I`m tired of it, personally. Now, in Ohio, the number of fatal overdoses accounts for more deaths than car crashes. Nowhere is this epidemic more problem than the small town of Portsmouth, Ohio. Drug overdose deaths increased by 360 percent from 1999 to 2008. Now, (INAUDIBLE).
Remember this, this month, the Ohio Senate passed a bill targeting pill mills. Federal agents are cracking down on doctors who are illegally prescribing prescription medication, but I got to tell you, there`s tons of problem with it being done legally, too. So, tonight, joining me from Portsmouth is Police Captain Charles Homer as well as Ohio attorney general, Mike Dewine, both on the front lines fighting this epidemic.
And I also have Lisa Roberts, she`s a public health nurse. We saw her doing that last shot. Now, first, I want to go to Attorney General Dewine. What is going on in Portsmouth?
MIKE DEWINE, OHIO ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, it`s a real tragedy. Doctor, you hit on it. This is destroying families. And it`s not just -- candidly, it`s not just enforcement. It is all throughout the state of Ohio. All 88 counties. Every single county we see this. You know, we lose four people in the state of Ohio every single week -- or excuse me, every single day, who die of accidental drug overdoses and many of these who die every single day are prescription drugs.
PINSKY: Attorney general, let me ask you this. I pored through a little bit of the Ohio statutes on pain management. Throughout the early part of the last decade, there was a lot of legislation to encourage doctor to prescribe. In fact, criminal liability was incurred for doctors that didn`t prescribe adequately for patients in pain. Have we just gone too far with this sort of legislation?
DEWINE: Doctor, I don`t think the problem is so much legislation candidly. I think we all know that for a while, doctors were not prescribing enough as far as pain medication years ago. We`ve come back the other way. Most doctors today, let`s be honest, are doing a very, very good job with their patients. But what we have in the state of Ohio, what we have found is a handful of doctors who are killing people. And they`re putting these drugs out on the streets.
The doctor that we hit, had the raid in Portsmouth that you referenced. The case is still pending. I can`t talk a lot about it. But by the time we got there that morning, we had it under surveillance. By 12:40, he`d already seen 43 patients. We walked in, and there was no medical equipment. There was no nurse. There was no receptionist. It was just a doctor sitting at a table like I am right now and writing out prescriptions.
So, we have some these real doctors, and candidly, what we`re going to do in Ohio is we`re going to take their licenses from them. We`re going to drive them out of the state, and when we can criminally prosecute them, we`re going to prosecute them. That`s my --
PINSKY: I appreciate that. And I hope that takes care of the share (ph) of the problem. My greatest fear is that we`ve got other issues in addition. Now, in 2010, in Scioto County where Portsmouth is located, 9.8 million doses of prescription painkillers were dispensed. This gives you a sense of the magnitude of the problem that the attorney general was just talking about.
Sixty-five percent of the people who died did not have prescriptions for the drugs that caused their deaths. There`s a lot of street activity going on out there evidently. Nine out of ten crimes were drug related. Police Chief Homer, what`s your perspective on all this?
CHIEF CHARLES HOMER, PORTSMOUTH, OH POLICE: It`s an epidemic on our community. We`re fighting these pill mills, and we appreciate the effort of the attorney general and the DEA and the FBI and the U.S. attorney`s office in Columbus. They are coming to Portsmouth to Scioto County and providing us the assets that we desperately need to combat this problem.
PINSKY: Well, you know, we`ve had this in California for quite some time as well, and I know the DEA and law enforcement do a very good job of cleaning up the egregious over prescribers. That kind of -- to me -- Lisa, I want to get your perspective since you`re a nurse and you`re dealing with the patients on a sort of grassroots level. The egregious examples are sort of the easiest to target. Is there a more endemic cultural problem in overprescribing in your communities or in Ohio in general?
LISA ROBERTS, R.N./ PUBLIC HEALTH NURSE: In our community, it seems to be tied to poverty quite a bit. It doesn`t take a cartel to be a drug trafficker anymore. A lot of people have taken this up as a career. And so, we have street-level dealers who are actually visiting pain clinics, attaining prescription pills, selling them on the street which is forever perpetuating this addiction and the spread of this epidemic.
And it`s sort of like the pyramiding marketing scheme. Only the product is a very addictive substance. So, how could that not be successful?
PINSKY: Yes. I want to point out to people that we`re looking at pictures of OxyContin. I don`t want to blame the medicine, particularly, not a specific medicine. These medicines, the ones we`re looking at here, if you have cancer pain or you`re dying in misery, these are, listen, one of the greatest creations that medicine has brought us is the opioid and ability to relieve misery and relieve suffering.
But, when you have addiction, these things are as addictive as heroin or cocaine or anything else, maybe more so because there`s such a sort of lax attitude about it. Police Chief Homer, I understand you were actually having difficulty hiring young officers, is that correct, because of this issue?
HOMER: Not only police officers but businesses in general. The economy of Scioto County has suffered as a result of this because people are, in fact, failing urine tests, the pre-employment testing. And it makes it difficult, not only in law enforcement, but business in general, in Scioto County, Southern Ohio, Northern Kentucky, to hire qualified candidates.
PINSKY: I want to go back to the attorney general. Mr. Dewine, is there any sort of public awareness campaign going on? Is that part of the issue, too, is to try to, you know, get people not just to shut down the mills but also to get people to recognize how serious this problem is? I know that`s what I`m trying to do. Are you guys doing that in Ohio?
DEWINE: Well, first of all, thank you for doing it. That has taken place. Governor Kasich and I, since we took office in January, have both made this a real top priority. And we have great cooperation, chief and other people in all the different counties. So, it is becoming -- people are becoming very, very aware of it. Our local media in Ohio has been covering it very, very extensively. What I think is amazing, though, is how long we went in the state of Ohio.
This really was a silent killer. The coroners knew about it. The numbers were there, but the general public, it just didn`t penetrate. And frankly, the politicians were not focused on it. But today, clearly, we`re focused on it, and we know what has to be done. And it`s a very difficult problem because it permeates these communities.
And it`s not, as I said, it`s not just Portsmouth, it`s not just Scioto County, it`s many, many small communities around the state where young people have become addicted. Fifteen years old, 16 years old, 17 years old, we`ve got one county where four children are orphans today. Why? Because the dad died one year of an overdose and the next year the mom died.
PINSKY: Yes. And there are literally thousands of young people -- this is really -- something to point out to people that young people is where this epidemic first took on. We`re gaining ground in use of elicit drugs. We are rapidly losing with prescriptions with young people, thousands of them will use opiate inappropriately, non-prescribed for the first time today and everyday.
I want to thank my guests, Attorney General Dewine. I want to thank Police Chief Homer and Lisa for joining us. I do appreciate it, and we will keep our eye on this story as it evolves.
Now, do you know a person who`s die from addiction? Our next guests do. It was their sons. Two Portsmouth moms are here to tell us how that went down.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: We are talking about prescription pill abuse and addiction. Two moms from Portsmouth, Ohio, two sons, two deaths, prescription drugs to blame. Joining us, Joanna Krohn, her 18-year-old son, West, died in a drug-related incident while taking OxyContin, an opiate. Also, Karrie Crumm, her 20-year-old son was murdered because he owed his prescription drug dealer money.
Also here is my friend, a drug counselor, obviously, somebody very close with both my profession life and on "Celebrity Rehab," Bob Forrest. So, I`m going to start with you, Karrie. Exactly what went down here? I mean, it sounds like a mom`s worst nightmare. Did you have any idea he was involved with all this?
KARRIE CRUMM, LOST SON TO DRUG ADDICTION: Yes. My son, his name was Kent Pya (ph). He died from this drug-related death 10 years ago at the age of 20. He actually died of a shot to his head. He had been on a sports injury and had a dislocated shoulder, and he went to a local doctor for some pain medication and that pain medication ended up in OxyContin. He was well liked, athletic, intelligent.
He had his whole world in front of him. He actually didn`t graduate from school. He did receive a GED. He didn`t get to go to his prom. He did end up being a millwright which he ended up going to Dayton and working. He had to go to a methadone clinic before work every day.
PINSKY: So, he actually got all the way to methadone. Karrie, how did he get involved in these criminal activities? I mean, what was that like? You must have gotten just out of the blue a phone call? Is that what happened?
CRUMM: Well, no, with Kent, he did not -- his addiction was short lived due to he was shot. He did not have any criminal activity other than the incident where he was murdered. Like I said, his was short lived from a dislocated shoulder in high school.
PINSKY: It`s a cautionary tale, Karrie, I will just say. I mean, people got to remember when they have orthopedic injuries, they`re dealing with kids that may have a genetic liability. If they`re on those meds more than a couple of weeks, you know, beware. Karrie -- excuse me -- Joanna, what was your story for your son?
JOANNA KROHN, LOST SON TO DRUG ADDICTION: My son just got involved with drugs at age 13. He started with alcohol, smoking marijuana, and it just escalated from there. He had an addictive personality, and he was on everything at one time.
PINSKY: And was he visiting the pill mills?
KROHN: He was not visiting the pill mills, but he did have a supplier who gave him whole prescriptions, and he would take half, and he would sell the other half to pay for his addiction.
PINSKY: Do either of you have messages --
KROHN: He was a senior.
PINSKY: Do either of you have messages for other mothers out there who are saying to themselves, not my kid? And for the same token -- maybe, you heard a few moments ago, we were talking to the Ohio attorney general, things that you would like to see Ohio do. So, both those issues. Messages for my listeners, my viewers, and what should Ohio be doing here?
CRUMM: It doesn`t discriminate. That`s one thing. It can happen to anyone`s child.
KROHN: Right. Don`t be naive. Your child could be using. I hear a lot of parents saying that they had no idea their child was involved in drugs. Just watch what they do. Find out who they hang out with, and you know, make sure they follow house rules. I would tell everybody to educate yourself what addiction is. And if you have a child that has addiction, don`t give up on them. Basically, do everything you can to get them the help.
PINSKY: And to point out what the attorney general did say is that they are looking at these pill mills. They`re going after them actively, and they`re trying to raise public awareness about the nature of this problem. Bob Forrest, we hear this -- dramatic when you hear this mom tell the story, but you and I, how many thousands of times have we heard these stories? We have a friend and patient dying today of opiate use, opiate addiction, given medicines appropriately, not by pill mills.
BOB FORREST, DRUG COUNSELOR, "CELEBRITY REHAB": I argued that with him many times.
PINSKY: Yes. Yes. I know.
FORREST: The idea is what -- is the cure worse than the disease, and that`s what seems to be happening here. When you have 20-year-old boys on methadone, what kind of world do we got? It`s a tsunami.
PINSKY: Tsunami of prescription drugs. Where do you think it`s coming from?
FORREST: Well, it`s our culture. Our culture thinks you take a pill because you got a problem. And that`s not -- you know, when you --
PINSKY: Hang on a second, Bob, because you walked in here with a head of steam after the commercial break saying that I couldn`t accept --
FORREST: Oh, no. You can`t accept that doctors are doing wrong things.
PINSKY: I can. What I`m saying is that those are the low-hanging fruit.
FORREST: But you`re saying that --
PINSKY: I think that`s going to be easy for the Ohio attorney general to go after them. It`s what we`ve unleashed here is a culture, as you`re saying, where we don`t even ask about addiction. We call a patient bad if they`re an addict as opposed to going, this is an addict, be very careful prescribing these medicines.
FORREST: Get to what the woman said. She wanted to be very clear that her son was over the problems of his addiction before he was murdered.
PINSKY: She didn`t really say that. He was on methadone.
FORREST: He was -- it was a short period of time --
PINSKY: Let`s let her say. Karrie, say that again. What`s that?
FORREST: Yes, Karrie?
CRUMM: No, my son, like I said, my son was going to the methadone clinic. He was not over his addiction. He was just home for two days after a shutdown. I got the call from work that he had been shot in the head by my mother, didn`t know where he was at, didn`t know what happened. It was the parent`s worst nightmare. When my husband come to pick me up at work --
PINSKY: Karrie, I`ve got to stop you. You sound -- I don`t know, disconnected from that experience. I just want to say when I hear you just say the words, I`m so sorry. That just sounds -- it is a parent`s worst nightmare. And I --
CRUMM: Thank you.
PINSKY: And I thank you for sharing this, but it is, hopefully, going to prevent some other parent from getting that call.
CRUMM: Can I tell you a little bit about our group, Solace, and what we`re doing here in this area and wonderful things that are happen?
PINSKY: Please, go right ahead.
CRUMM: Thank you. A year ago, I started the Solace Support Group in memory of my son, West, and it stands for surviving our loss and continuing every day. We have a group of approximately 30 families who have all lost loved ones to addiction. And we get together for support, and we help each other, but we are also an action group. We do many things. We have been helpful in changing legislation. We speak at schools to educate the youth and warn them what can happen.
KROHN: Teachers.
CRUMM: I tell Wesley`s story. He died as a high school student. And he was in active addiction at the time.
PINSKY: Joanna --
CRUMM: He never admitted he needed help.
PINSKY: Of course. And that`s part of the problem for us. We`re going to talk about that in a second, but Joanna, thank you, thank you for doing that. I want to make sure we have proper links and things at CNN.com and drewhln.com to make sure that the word gets out there, and other people can form similar grassroots efforts, because really, that`s where the solution is going to be, don`t you think, Bob?
FORREST: Yes. And this awareness and this education that you`ve been on a mission from God to make the public aware of drug addiction and what`s going on. It`s only getting worse. That`s the frightening thing. You`ve been doing this for 22 years, 24 years --
PINSKY: 20 years, yes.
FORREST: Trying to help the public understand. Addiction is real. It`s all over the place. It`s in Ohio, little townships in Ohio. It`s in L.A. It`s everywhere.
PINSKY: Well, Bob, thank you. Bob is going to stay with me. And Joanna and Karrie, thanks for sharing these stories. I hope that by the name of your sons, we save mother`s lives, and I want to --
CRUMM: Community.
PINSKY: You`re so right. I love what you`re doing, and I want to get right behind that. So, hopefully, I`ll have a chance to talk to you even more as time goes along.
Up next now, we`re going to switch gears and talk to Lindsay Lohan who returns home. She can`t leave. She`s under house arrest, but is this maybe house party arrest? I don`t know. How is this story going to end? Bob and I are going to talk about this a little bit. We are pulling for old Lindsay.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Well, we want to keep you abreast of more shocking information coming out of day three of the Casey Anthony trial. Casey Anthony`s ex-boyfriend, Anthony Lazzaro, testified about a secret. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was the secret that Casey had shared with you that she had been abused by her father?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the secret that she had shared with you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lee Anthony tried to sexually abuse her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: He also says Casey told him her dad, George, only, quote, "hit her," unquote, or disciplined her. That, of course, was not in front of the jury. It could be considered hearsay. The judge will decide whether or not that information will make it to the trial. And I just want to say that, you know, somebody attempting to sexually abuse somebody is not enough to create severe personality pathology and all the lying and stuff we`re seeing in this case. So, it`s not quite passing the sniff test yet.
All right. I want to talk now about Lindsay Lohan. Is she safe at home? Now, she began, just began 35 days of house arrest in Venice, California, where she lives. She can`t leave except for court-allowed trips. She is wearing an electronic ankle bracelet which monitors her every move, but I don`t have information on yet is whether it`s one of those that can also detect alcohol.
Bob Forrest is still here with me from "Celebrity Rehab." He`s back with me to talk about this. I mean, keeping her locked in her house. By the way, this is the judge that said she didn`t have a drug problem. She has a psych problem, not a drug problem. That -- my head blew off when I heard that.
FORREST: (INAUDIBLE) UCLA.
PINSKY: Well, no, this was the judge`s opinion. It wasn`t based on expert testimony.
FORREST: UCLA, psych hospital, months ago.
PINSKY: Yes, that was before --
FORREST: Let`s first and foremost say, there`s a standard sentencing, the county of Los Angeles. Everybody`s going to say it`s unfair. She`s rich. She`s a rich spoiled brat. She`s a celebrity that`s why she gets to have this. You know, anybody in the county of Los Angeles for the offenses that she`d gotten. We talked about this. Paris Hilton got 21 days for a DUI.
PINSKY: Yes.
FORREST: You and I wouldn`t have gotten 21 days.
PINSKY: It`s the O.J. Simpson effect.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: When the underway for celebrities. If celebrities don`t get a break, they get scrutinized. But really, is it sufficient to have her on just house arrest? I don`t see what it does anything. People can be using drugs all around. She could probably use drugs with an ankle bracelet, right?
FORREST: I`m sure, but the idea is everybody getting covered. The judge has to do something. He`s in a hotspot.
PINSKY: Yes.
FORREST: He`s got every media following and watching his every move. If he allows her to go scot-free like most people would, it`s very ambiguous the circumstance (INAUDIBLE). I`m not defending her. She`s a drug addict. She`s alcoholic. She needs to get better. I`ve been rooting for her for years, you know? I have a soft spot for drug addicts.
PINSKY: Of course. Me, too. Lindsay has been in and out of jail since 2007. How realistic is this to work is the question? Personally --
FORREST: Nothing will make somebody stop doing what they`re doing until they decide to stop doing what they`re doing.
PINSKY: That`s absolutely true. Lindsay seems to be kind of motivated these days. She does. Wouldn`t six months somewhere have a --
FORREST: Oh, yes. That she`d go to treatment rather than just stay at home.
PINSKY: Exactly. And I wish the judge had taken that kind of enlightened approach, I really do, as a posed to saying you have a psych problem, not a drug problem. She may have both. I don`t know, but drugs are clearly a big deal. I don`t know her, but --
FORREST: Do they have shop lifting rehab?
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: Bob, thank you for joining me. See you again soon. No doubt. It`s going to be an interesting 35 days for Lindsay and the people who care, but we`re actually pulling for Lindsay. I want to see her get --
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: I know. I want to see her get sober, though. Thanks.
We`ll be here tomorrow night. There`ll be a guy named Psycho Mike here, some "Dancing with the Stars" star. Get ready. We can (ph) talk about sex, and we`ll see you then.
END
