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Nancy Grace
Witness Contradicts Casey Anthony Defense
Aired May 27, 2011 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping, placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way. Tot mom`s lawyer tells a stunned courtroom she has nothing to do with Caylee`s death, but instead blames her own father, saying ex-cop George Anthony shows up with Caylee`s dead body, and instead of calling 911, he hides the body and leaves it to rot.
Tot mom then claims father George and brother Lee both sexually molest her. Tot mom`s lover reveals when Caylee goes missing, tot mom spends the whole day laid up in bed with him, only leaving to rent a movie.
Bombshell tonight. After a tow truck operator swears tot mom`s car trunk reeks of a dead body, father George Anthony called back to the stand. Father George chokes up, says he smells, quote, "a human corpse" in tot mom`s trunk, his mind races and he prays it`s not his daughter or granddaughter, opens the car trunk, sees maggots.
The judge sends the jury out, and tot mom`s big secret to her lover revealed, that father George and brother Lee molested her. With brother Lee Anthony finally in court today, the secret, not so big when the lover finally takes the stand to say that`s not what tot mom told him at all.
As we obtain video of tot mom on 11 separate shopping sprees -- Target, Penney`s, Ikea, you name it -- all immediately after Caylee disappears, a state`s witness is busted for selling tot mom and Caylee photos to "The Globe" and a tow truck operator swears in court tot mom`s car trunk reeked of a dead body.
Tot mom shaking her head, No, no, no, as another witness tells the jury tot mom bragged, quote, "Oh, my God, I`m such a good liar." Well, that`s one time we know tot mom told the truth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did notice a fairly strong odor emanating from the vehicle, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you ever had the opportunity to come across a vehicle in which there had been a dead body?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am. Six, seven, eight times maybe in my career have I been -- had the misfortune to either tow or process or be involved with a vehicle that`s had some kind of long-term fatality in it. From my experience, the smell of decomposition is unique in comparison to the smell of rotten food or rotten garbage.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When you smell that, do you, in your opinion, know the difference?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am. The instant flash in my mind was, Oh, you know, I know what that smells like.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: Maybe someone put a body in the car after it was towed to the tow yard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the secret that she had shared with you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lee Anthony tried to sexually abuse her.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: That particular smell, whenever you smell it, it`s something you never forget. It`s a very distinct odor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But what -- was there a concern that came into your mind as you smelled that odor?
GEORGE ANTHONY: My mind did race somewhat to the point, as I was -- because I hadn`t seen my daughter or my granddaughter for some time, I did worry that -- I did worry that`s my daughter or my granddaughter, or both at the same time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have a thought that they might be in the trunk of the car?
GEORGE ANTHONY: I was hoping that that wasn`t the case. I was hoping that everything was OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. The judge sends the jury out, and tot mom`s big secret to her lover revealed -- that father George and brother Lee molested her. With brother Lee Anthony finally in court today, that secret not so big when the lover finally takes the stand to say that`s not what tot mom told him at all.
As we obtain video of tot mom on 11 separate shopping sprees immediately after Caylee disappears, a state`s witness is busted for selling photos to "The Globe."
We are taking your calls. Straight out to Natisha Lance, standing by. Everyone, we are here live at the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the very latest, everything that happened in the courtroom today, as finally, justice for Caylee begins.
Natisha, what happened in court?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, there was this big lead-up to this secret that was going to be revealed by Casey Anthony`s former attorney -- former boyfriend, that is, Tony Lazzaro. Now, the jury was led out of the courtroom, so being in the courtroom, you were thinking it`s going to be a big reveal. And then he gets on the stand and he says that Casey Anthony revealed to him prior to Caylee`s disappearance, prior to us knowing about Caylee`s disappearance, that Lee Anthony had felt her up. However, he was not successful in that.
The defense went on to further ask him, What about her father? What kind of abuse did her father do to Casey Anthony? And he said he interpreted it as hitting, as discipline when she was a young child.
GRACE: Unleash the lawyers. Darryl Cohen, former attorney for Jesse Grund, tot mom`s fiance, joining us out of Atlanta. Meg Strickler, defense attorney. Darryl Cohen, they really had a huge build-up for this guy you`re seeing right now, Tony Lazzaro, and the big secret. In fact, they tried to ask Lazzaro the same question over and over, and the judge stopped them on state`s objection that it would be hearsay.
The big secret was going to be, we find out when the judge sends the jury out, that she tells Lazzaro, I guess one night in bed after Caylee goes missing -- remember, Darryl, they stayed in bed the whole day, the whole day, never opening the bedroom door within 48 hours of Caylee disappearing. I guess that`s how grieving mothers act, they lay up with their boyfriend for 48 hours straight.
Anyway, back to Lazzaro. So they send the jury out, Darryl. Here`s the big secret. Pins and needles! They go, Didn`t she tell you her father and brother molested her? He`s, like, No, she said her father hit her when he disciplined her and the brother tried to feel her up, but it didn`t happen. That`s the big secret. That`s what I`ve been waiting on, Darryl?
DARRYL COHEN, FMR. ATTORNEY FOR CASEY`S FORMER FIANCE: Nancy, it seems to me like it`s much ado about nothing. I don`t understand why they brought it up. I don`t understand why the jury went out. I do not understand why they ever mentioned it as a large secret.
It`s not a secret. It`s of no meaning. It`s of no probative value. The evidence doesn`t -- it doesn`t help anybody. It`s just much ado about nothing. It`s dumb. It`s dumb trial tactics, in my view.
GRACE: So Meg Strickler, not only -- not only did it turn out to be false, they`re stuck with it! They told the jury in opening statement that the whole reason she acted the way she did for the 30 days after Caylee disappeared is because she was in denial, because she was a sexual molestation victim, because of her father and brother. And this is how they were going to prove it, Meg.
MEG STRICKLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is a big fat "Oops" for the defense. I mean, you really need to know what`s going to come out of these witnesses before you put them on. And he`s saying, Well, he felt me -- (INAUDIBLE) felt you up and then didn`t really succeed. That statement in and of itself, one way or the other, makes no sense. How do you not succeed in feeling somebody up? That doesn`t even make sense.
So this has hurt the defense profusely because, again, you put that out as the opening statement, you need to hammer it over and over and over. And they didn`t succeed with this witness at all.
GRACE: Right. To Dr. Bethany Marshall -- everybody, we are camped outside the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest and taking your calls live. That goes for the whole panel.
Dr. Bethany, psychoanalyst, author of "Dealbreakers" -- Dr. Bethany, I don`t know if you can see a monitor, but we`re about to show you one shopping spree after the next, 11 that we`ve counted so far in court. I`m talking -- we can`t even fit them all on one screen, Dr. Bethany, so I had to chop them up in several screens like this. We`ve got Target -- in fact, on one day, she goes to Target twice in two separate outfits.
Now, I`ve got to tell you, that`s one thing I`ve never done is dress up for Target. Yes, I`ve gone there two times in one day, unfortunately, but she dressed up to go to Target, twice, in one day. You`ve got Ikea, you`ve got Winn Dixie, you`ve got J.C. Penney over and over. You`ve got Blockbuster. And the list goes on.
What`s with this, Dr. Bethany? According to her, her daughter`s dead. According to police, she was missing. She`s found dead, her skull with hair barely sticking on it, out in a makeshift pet cemetery in the woods. And here she is, shopping spree.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, in my mind, Nancy, this provides the motive for homicide. We know that the number one reason mothers kill their children is because they want the child out of the way so that they can have a boyfriend, a love life, a sexual life, a very idealized life.
And for Casey, maybe the idea of dolling it up and going to Target and buying clothes to go out and date -- this was her big excitement. This was her moment, the moment that she wanted. And in a sense, it`s like she`s dancing on her daughter`s grave.
And when you put that alongside the fact that she said that her father hit her, it paints her not as a sexual abuse victim, it paints her as a normal woman in her 20s. You know, young people tend to malign their parents. They tend to experience their parents as much more mean than they really are, so it puts her not as a sexual abuse victim.
GRACE: We are taking your calls live here outside the Orlando courthouse. All of this, the shopping sprees, the big secret, the alleged molestation -- this as one of the state`s witnesses is busted on the stand for accepting thousands of dollars to sell photos of tot mom and Caylee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The door was open. The smell came out very intently. It was almost like you were releasing it into the atmosphere, and it was very potent. It was -- it was eye-opening.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In fact, you asked your lawyer to...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Baez, do not go there. Next question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At some point, did you begin to date Casey Anthony?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When was that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was February 2008.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell the jury how that started, how you met her?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I met her on FaceBook.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You and the defendant broke up in mid-April of 2008?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first time she came over to your apartment, did she bring her daughter?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you have any discussions with the defendant about Caylee`s dad?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What, if anything, did the defendant tell you about Caylee`s dad?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She told me that he was deceased.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are here outside the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of Casey Anthony, tot mom, on trial for the murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee -- Caylee`s remains found just 15 houses from the Anthony home, thrown, discarded, in a makeshift pet cemetery, in a heavily wooded area.
This is exclusive video that we obtained of Caylee`s 2nd birthday. It is there at the Anthony home, that patio just beside the pool, where tot mom`s defense attorney says she died by accident.
I want to go to Alexis Tereszcuk. On the stand right now, Alexis -- with us, Radaronline.com -- on the stand with us in earlier hours, a guy named Simon Birch (ph). Simon Birch, tow truck operator and manager, gets into a fight with defense attorney Jose Baez. Birch says when he walked to tot mom`s car with father George Anthony, George had been all worried -- talking about his daughter`s missing, his granddaughter`s missing -- and when they approach that car, the smell -- it reeked of a dead body.
And then he was so afraid, they were saying a silent prayer that when he opened that trunk, there wouldn`t be the daughter or the granddaughter in the trunk. And sure enough, nothing is there. Well, Baez is fighting about, Why didn`t you call police? He was fighting with him for the longest time on the stand. Was that effective?
ALEX TERESZCUK, RADARONLINE.COM: This is the second day that Baez has done this, Nancy. Yesterday, Baez was fighting with George Anthony, who is Casey`s father. He`s saying that -- you know, he was agitated and he was being disrespectful to him. So again, he fights with Birch today.
Birch was saying he smelled decomposition. He said he basically smelled what he is a dead body, and he`s smelled this before. Six, seven, eight times, he`s come across this in his career and he recognized the smell. He was absolutely positive. He was adamant in his testimony. And Baez just argued with him, saying, Well, why didn`t you call police? Well, there wasn`t a body in the trunk. He wasn`t really aware of everything that was going on, he was just taking the man to the car.
GRACE: You`re right, Alexis Tereszcuk.
To Ellie Jostad. Ellie, what was Birch going to do, call the police and say, Hey, I smelled a smell, send out an ambulance, hurry, send out a cruiser. He smelled a smell. What could he do with that? Why would he call police with just a smell? They opened the trunk, and there was nothing in there. And notably -- I heard this, Ellie. He went on to say when they took the bag of garbage from boyfriend/lover Tony Lazzaro`s apartment out of the trunk, the smell didn`t go with the bag. The smell stayed in the trunk.
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. He said that the smell was clearly coming from the car. And also, Nancy, he said -- you know, he didn`t mention -- he recognized the smell was human decomposition. As Alexis said, he`d smelled it many times before. But he said he didn`t say anything because he said George Anthony was clearly upset. He mentioned his granddaughter was missing, his daughter was missing, and he said he didn`t want to add anything to it. He didn`t want to "stir the pot," are the words he used.
GRACE: Out to the lines. Jennifer in Texas. Hi, Jennifer. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. I`ve been watching the story since, like, day one. And one thing that`s always gotten ahold of me, is if -- now they`re saying that Caylee drowned in June? Nobody called police, nobody called 911, nobody freaked out? To me, that doesn`t sound like a typical mom. I have four kids. Something happens to my boys, I would be losing my mind.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: She`s right -- oh, go ahead. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, well, my question is, why isn`t she acting like a typical mom? You know, she`s out there partying. Why isn`t she acting like a typical mom?
GRACE: We`ll take both of your points when we get back, Jennifer in Texas.
Everybody, we are live outside the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest of what went down in court today and taking your calls live. Justice for Caylee begins.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey told me that she didn`t feel comfortable with me being around Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two relationships are coming under scrutiny in this trial.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know you trust me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lee Anthony tried to sexually abuse her.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: I`m not in control over any of this!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just don`t know if I can believe what she`s saying, you know?
CASEY ANTHONY: Exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My impression was that somehow, he was trying to pressure her into it somehow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she really do it only to better herself, or does she even just say white lies just to do it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As she hung up, she said, Oh, my God, I`m such a good liar.
CASEY ANTHONY: I was completely truthful.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, you`re not.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live here outside the Orange County, Orlando, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, in the alleged murder of her little girl, Caylee.
Out to Ellie. Ellie, what about Jennifer`s question about not calling 911? To me, the answer would be because according to tot mom, ex-cop, her father, George Anthony, said, Hey, I`ll cover it all up.
JOSTAD: Right. Well, that`s what the defense said in their opening statement, is that once she realized Caylee had drowned in the pool, she did what she`s done her whole life, which is hide her pain.
But I think the problem a lot of people are having with the defense -- and I know you have a problem with this -- is that, so George helped her cover it up so that she wouldn`t go to jail for neglect, but now he`s allegedly OK with letting her go to jail for murder or even getting the death penalty? That`s the part of the defense that I think a lot of people are having problems with.
GRACE: You know, I`ve got a lot of problems with the defense, and one of them -- out to you, Pat Brown for the second part of her question, why doesn`t tot mom seem to be grieving like a normal mom? To hang your hat on an alleged molestation that you only remembered or repeated once your daughter goes missing all these years later, and then your big witness to whom you confide in gets on the stand and says, yes, no, that`s not what she said at all...
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, I think...
GRACE: (INAUDIBLE) problem with dragging George and Lee Anthony through the mud.
BROWN: Well, I think Jose Baez knows he`s up against a wall because as the caller said, she`s not acting like a normal mom. She`s acting like a psychopath, like someone who got ahold of a bad puppy she didn`t want to take of, euthanized it, went and buried it in the back yard, and then, oh, she got a windfall. She does not have to spend no (ph) more money on that little pet of hers, so she can go out and shopping. He`s got to do something about that really bad psychopathic behavior she`s showing. He needs another explanation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEORGE ANTHONY, FATHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: When this started for us, we were running on fumes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were talking about a 3-year-old little girl.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We found a human skull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She and Caylee had a very, very special bond.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY, TOT MOM: No, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The skeletal remains are those of Caylee.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reason you drove that car home and didn`t call the police and went to work is because you knew Caylee was dead already, didn`t you, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can answer that question.
GEORGE ANTHONY: No, I did not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you knew, sir, that if you distanced yourself and was at work, that you would be the last person questioned about the death of Caylee, didn`t you, sir?
GEORGE ANTHONY: No, sir.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NANCY GRACE, HLN HOST: We are taking your calls. Welcome back. We are here outside the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom, Casey Anthony, in the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.
Back to one of the witnesses on the stand today, Melissa England. To David Lore, senior crime reporter with the "Huffington Post."
Melissa England quote tot mom saying, "Oh, my god, I`m such a good liar." Now, that`s certainly not a way to kick off a defense, to have to bring that up in your closing statements. What about it, David Lore?
DAVID LORE, SENIOR CRIME REPORTER, HUFFINGTON POST: No, it`s certainly not, Nancy. Miss England, she`s from Massachusetts. She was dating one of the -- a friend of Casey Anthony`s. She was up for the Fourth of July weekend in 2008. They went out shopping, drove around in a vehicle a few times, and on one of those occasions, Casey was talking on her cell phone to some friends. They wanted her to go out with her. She made up a lie, said her car was broken down, she couldn`t go out with them. After she hung up the phone, she looked to Miss England and said, "Oh, my God, I`m such a good liar." You know, basically bragging that she was able to tell such a story to her friends.
GRACE: And during that time, to body language expert, author of "Knack Body Language." Aaron Brehove joining us out of Boston.
Aaron, during that witness` testimony, Melissa England, tot mom was just shaking her head, no, no, no, I never said "Oh, my God, I`m such a good liar." And the lie was fairly elaborate, like all of her lies, Aaron. She goes into much more detail than is really necessary to affect the lie.
I mean, she went into, she couldn`t pick them up for whatever reason, I guess they were going out to party or shop, that her car was broken down and there were details about that. I mean, it goes on and on and on. The details she gives on all of these lies is incredible, Aaron. What did you observe about the shaking of the head no. Well, she does that with practically every witness. They`re all lying according to her.
AARON BREHOVE, AUTHOR, "KNACK BODY LANGUAGE": Right. And we see her do this. It`s very overt. It`s something that she`s really trying to project and wants the people to know that she`s shaking her head from right to left and saying that she doesn`t agree with. It`s almost childish. It`s unneeded. It`s unnecessary.
And the reason she`s doing it is, it`s really uncalled for. And this is, it kind of goes back to what her lawyer said at one point, that she was, I forgot the quote, but it was something like she`s a 3-year-old. She was so immature. And she`s continuously displaying this. It`s really surprising. And also we`ve seen -- it`s always all about her. She always wants to bring the focus back to her.
We see when her lawyer was giving the statement about how she was molested when she was younger and talking about Caylee a little bit, it seemed like she was crying. This emotion came out for the first time. We see her crying.
We don`t see her crying when we`re talking about Caylee, but then she comes up, and something bad happened to her. So we see this emotion come out. We see her crying. So really, she just focuses on herself so much, and this shaking of the head, it`s really inappropriate.
GRACE: I`m just looking at her in all of these stores and it brings to memory a couple of weeks ago, I had Lucy and John David in "Toys "R" Us" buying that foamy spray soap they like to spray it in the tub.
I had Lucy by the hand. I had John David right with me. But he suddenly, behind my back, shoots off to play hide and go seek. I turn around, no John David. Maybe 45 seconds had passed. My immediate thought was, Adam Walsh, John Walsh`s son who went missing in the Sears.
I grabbed Lucy up like a football and went running toward the front of the store, screaming my baby boy, I can`t find my baby boy! You know, all the security came -- we found him. He was only like five aisles away, running like mad, hiding in "Toys "R" Us."
And I`m watching her calmly walking along -- can I see that video again, please, Liz, of her on all these shopping sprees, 11 so far, and we`re only in, what, day four or five of the trial. We`ve seen 11 shopping spree video surveillance so far. It`s just very hard for me to take in. I`m wondering if the jury`s having the same reaction.
I want to go to Ellie.
And then after you put up Simon Birch, about the car -- tot mom`s car wreaking of a dead body, then they bring on George Anthony, late this afternoon, to go through about how he found out the car was towed to start with. Remind us, how did he find out?
ELLIE JOSTAD, CHIEF EDITORIAL PRODUCER: Right, Nancy. Well, what happened is, is that a letter was mailed to the Anthony Family and they didn`t find it right away. Finally, when they did find the letter on June -- and they had to go to the post office to get it, there was this big delay. By the time they found out the car had been towed, almost two weeks had past.
So when they went to the tow yard and Simon Birch talked about this, he said, George and Cindy Anthony were very angry. They were having to pay all these fees for the towing, for the storage, and so he was just, you know, trying --
GRACE: Wait a minute -- Ellie, Ellie, headline. Headline. At this time, hasn`t she told her family she`s in Jacksonville?
JOSTAD: Right.
GRACE: She told them so many stories, I can`t remember where she was supposed to be the day they found out the car had been towed?
JOSTAD: Right. She said she was in Jacksonville. She said she was at Bush Gardens at a conference. She said she was staying for a friend`s mother`s wedding. She`d been telling them all kinds of stories about where she was.
So when they found out that this wasn`t true, her car hadn`t broken down out of town, it was towed, they were very upset and they were trying to figure out what the heck was going on.
GRACE: And then with George on the stand today, he said under oath, he smelled the car as he approached it and eerily he had just been telling Simon Birch, as they walk toward the car, about his missing daughter and granddaughter. And they both smelled that smell and go, oh, no, oh, no, please, they`re not dead in the trunk. And they open the trunk and look in, and all there is is a bag of garbage from Tony Lazzaro`s apartment.
Out to the lines. Kay in Florida.
Hi, Kay. What`s your question?
KAY FROM FLORIDA (via telephone): Hi, Nancy. Can you tell me why there were no other children at Caylee`s second birthday party? That seems kind of strange to have lived there for over 20 years and no other children?
GRACE: That`s a good question.
To Natisha Lance, what do we know about that little birthday party they had on their porch? Was it just the family?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: We believe it was just the family, Nancy. And keep in mind, too, Casey Anthony would say she had all these different friends who had other kids and Caylee was having play dates with them, but these friends, when it comes down to it, they didn`t exist. Juliette Lewis, Jeffrey Hopkins, yes, he`s a guy who she went to high school with him, but he never had a son named Zachary as Casey Anthony claimed.
GRACE: I`m going to go back to -- you know, well, a lot of us had birthday parties with just our family. I think I may have been 13 before I finally had a party with little friends over.
I want to go back to George on the stand. He actually says, he says under oath, when he smells the smell, his mind began to race. He felt sick. He thought it may be Caylee and Casey. He was very afraid. So, I guess they`re just bringing him back whenever they need him, Darryl Cohen, to respond to something that`s happening in court.
DARRYL COHEN, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR JESSE GRUND: I think that`s the case, Nancy. Also, Casey has perfected the art of being a bad liar. And you`re right. They`re bringing him back every time the prosecution needs to hammer into the defense one more lie that Casey uttered. Every time she opens her mouth. She wouldn`t know the difference if the truth hit her in the face. She would not recognize it.
GRACE: We are here at the Orange County courthouse, bringing you the latest at the end of the courthouse day. We are taking your calls live.
But very quickly, the search goes on for answers in the murder of a 13-year-old Georgia boy, Chuckie Mauk. This weekend would have been his 39th birthday. February, `86, Chuckie riding home on his bicycle in Warner Robin Robins, Georgia, stopped to talk to a man in a car. As he gets back on his bike, the driver fatally shoots the little boy there near a local convenience store.
Please, look at Chuckie Mauk. If you have information, please, call the Houston County sheriff`s office, 478-542-2125 tonight. We have not forgotten Chuckie Mauk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I tell them to stay strong, keep your faith, and always remember your child and to do this -- this is something you`re doing for your child. You have to be the voice of your child.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY: I didn`t want to believe what I was smelling to a point. I was trying to not think too much ahead of myself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The odor that you were testifying a moment ago that this reminded you of from your past, was that the odor of a human corpse?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Uh, yes. I noticed a slight circular type stain about where the spare tire was at. I mean, it was slight, but I did notice something and -- yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you said it was a slight stain. I mean, how visible was it? Was it fairly subtle or --
GEORGE ANTHONY: It was somewhat subtle. It wasn`t anything like black or anything like that in color. It was something subtle that I could see. It was probably about the size of a basketball.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And I want to go to Dr. Stanton Kessler, consulting medical examiner, forensic pathologist joining us out of Columbia.
Dr. Kessler, thank you for being with us.
DR. STANTON KESSLER, CONSULTING MEDICAL EXAMINER, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Good evening, Nancy.
GRACE: Today, father George Anthony took the stand, and he says -- and remember, he is a former police detective. He`s been around plenty of dead bodies. He says when he walks towards that car, this is tot mom`s car, she`s been gone for weeks now, gone. Don`t know where she is, thinks she`s in Jacksonville at the time. He finds out her car is towed. He`s walking to the car, doctor, he smells the overwhelming smell, as he said, "I smell a human corpse."
He`s praying it`s not tot mom and Caylee. They open up the trunk and he sees maggots. How long does it take for maggots, that you can observe with the naked eye, to exist?
KESSLER: You can see -- you actually can see -- if flies are around, in Florida, because I trained in Florida years ago, maggots will come in about a day or so. Flies actually lay eggs sooner than that. Within an hour or two, they`ll start laying eggs with and they`ll mature and develop within about 16 hours.
And then they go through different stages over the next few days. So they could have been around a good while, or not that long, but they could be dead, too. Sometimes conditions are so they die, actually. So they could have been there for a while. I don`t know if they were alive or not, but that smell is unique. I`ve smelled it hundreds, thousands of times. I`ve been to many scenes. It`s not something that you will forget.
GRACE: Yes, you never, ever forget it. And you know what else, Dr. Kessler, nobody has to tell you what it is. When you smell that, it`s -- you know what it is. It`s almost instinctive, I guess, wouldn`t you say?
KESSLER: It`s something that is unique. It doesn`t smell like anything else. It doesn`t smell like garbage. It doesn`t smell like food that`s rotting. It`s a unique smell from the proteinaceous and the fats that`s coming off a body. There are about 460 separate compounds that come out, there are some main ones, but they find this using gas chromatography and GC mass spec. It`s a special test.
And these aren`t normal compounds that you find anywhere else. It`s pretty bad. That`s how we can find in soil samples, if a body`s been moved. You can actually test for decomposition products.
GRACE: Alexis Tereszcuk, RadarOnline.com, it goes on from there.
George Anthony, father George Anthony gets very upset on the stand late in the day, in court today, reliving the moment he smelled, as he says, I smelled the odor of a human corpse. My mind raced. I was praying it wasn`t my daughter or my granddaughter. He opens the trunk, is so relieved they`re not in there. He tries to convince himself, well, OK, there was not a dead body, so I guess I was wrong.
But then he goes on, Alexis, to say there was no way he could have driven that car off the lot with the windows up. The odor of a human corpse was so overpowering. How much more does one man have to take, Alexis Tereszcuk?
ALEXIS TERESZCUK, REPORTER: And especially with the defense just pounding him. He was so choked up today. You know, he`s been holding it together very well. He gets a little emotional, but this is the first time that he has really shown how devastated he was he was. He said he saw Caylee every single day of her life until she disappeared on the 16th. He`s devastated.
GRACE: Weigh in, Dr. Bethany.
DR. BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: One thing that might be holding George together is the idea that he`s doing the right thing. And that he`s a man of honor. And that he`s being there for his wife, and he`s being there for little Caylee, because in this particular case, being a parent was really a thankless job for him. But nonetheless, he has hung in there for his daughter. He had suffered these indignities, and it shows what a good guy he is.
GRACE: And don`t you think, Darryl Cohen, Meg Strickler -- first to you, Darryl, this makes him an even more powerful witness. He`s in court there supporting his daughter, which makes his testimony even stronger to me.
COHEN: Absolutely. For a man to have to come in and testify against his daughter, who he raised, it is beyond belief. What this man has gone through, especially as an ex-police officer, it`s unbelievable.
GRACE: What about it, Meg?
MEG STRICKLER, GEORGIA CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, and also, the fact that he`s former law enforcement. I mean, his statements have a lot of merit. And it`s hard for him, after he`s been -- these allegations of sexual abuse, and then still have to be up there and not be losing his emotions is very admirable.
GRACE: We are live in Orlando, but right now, CNN Heroes.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TARYN DAVIS, CNN HEROES: My husband, Corporal Michael Davis, was killed in Baghdad, Iraq. You know, even four years later, people still don`t really know how to react when you say, hi, I`m Karen, and I am a widow. After the funeral, I felt ostracized. Everybody liked to write off my grief due to my young age. They would say, at least you`re young, you can get remarried.
I come bearing widows!
I just wanted to talk about it with other widows. They`re not going to judge you if you`re laughing. They`re not going to tell me that I`m grieving wrong. I just wanted to create what I was searching for and just hope there were others out there that could help me build it, too.
I`m Taryn Davis and I invite a new generation of military widows to share their love, their sacrifice, and their survival.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Follow me, guys.
DAVIS: You see when we have all these events because they step outside of that comfort zone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His impact will continue to affect for the rest of our lives.
DAVIS: There are moments where they can all reflect. Followed by that time where they feel like they`re living life to the fullest.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My little sister wrote Taryn. She didn`t know how to get me through the loss and so she wanted me to find other sisters.
From my first event, I went from going completely alone to not anymore at all.
DAVIS: You get up that high, you see the world a different way. And I think as widows we see our life a different way when we land, too.
These military widows, they have given me a life again. They teach me so much. And show me how far I`ve come in, you know, one day another widow is going to come along and they`re going to be the one that`s changing that widow`s life. I mean, that`s pretty amazing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony, under way, finally, reality hits. The consequences of murder and the brutal death of 2-year- old Caylee Marie Anthony.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee Anthony died on June 16th, 2008, when she drowned in her family`s swimming pool.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not a murder case. This is a tragic accident that happened to some very disturbed people. People with significant issues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Anthony, would you like to answer my question now?
GEORGE ANTHONY: You are badgering me. You`re trying to get me upset, sir. Treat me with a little bit of respect and you`ll get respect back. That`s all I`m asking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Casey was 8 years old and her father came into her room and began to touch her inappropriately. She could be 13 years old, have her father`s penis in her mouth then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened. Anything Casey could do to protect her child, she did.
Have you ever sexually molested your daughter, Casey Anthony?
GEORGE ANTHONY: No, sir. When you get into this thing with you and I, sir, you`re going off in a way to get me more upset. And I don`t think that`s fair.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She kind of threw the phone down on the dashboard and just said, oh my god, I`m such a good liar.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: As we begin Memorial Day weekend, congratulations to friend of the show, Rita Cosby. Her book, "Quiet Heroes: Secrets From My Father`s Past" out in paperback. It honors her father, a Polish resistance fighter and prisoner of war battling Nazis in World War II. To order go to QuietHero.org.
Let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class Stephen Snowberger III, just 18, Lopez, Pennsylvania, killed Iraq. Awarded purple heart, bronze star, Iraq campaign medal. Global war on terrorism service medal. Loves skateboarding, collecting rocks, racing remote controlled cars. Time with family, including brother, James, who passed away.
Leaves behind parents, Debby and Paul, grandmother Janet, sister, Jessica. Stephen Snowberger, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you. And a special good night tonight from the New York control room.
Good night, Liz. I see you, Rosie. Dana.
And congratulations to San Francisco defense lawyer Daniel Horowitz and his beautiful wife, Valerie, welcoming their new baby girl, Chloe. What a beauty. Welcome to the world, baby Chloe.
Everyone, I`ll see you Monday night 8:00 sharp Eastern. We will be live here at the Orlando courthouse and seeking justice for Caylee. Until then, good night, friend.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
