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Joy Behar Page
Casey Anthony Murder Trial; Interview with Kathie Lee Gifford
Aired May 31, 2011 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, an emotional Cindy Anthony takes the stand again today in her daughter`s murder trial.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: (INAUDIBLE) Why didn`t she tell me? I swore at her and hit the bed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Could the relationship between Casey and Cindy hold the key to the case?
Then Joy talks to Brad Conway, former attorney for George and Cindy Anthony. What does he think about the defense`s attempts to portray George as an abuser?
Plus the always sunny Kathie Lee Gifford is here to talk about her new kids` book and TV`s big name sign-offs.
That and more starting right now.
BEHAR: High drama in the Casey Anthony trial today. Her mother, Cindy, took the stand and broke down as she listened to her own 911 call from July 15th, 2008. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY: My granddaughter has been taken, she has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing. Get someone here now.
911 OPERATOR: Ok. What is the address that you`re calling from?
ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) Hope Spring drive. We`re talking about a 3- year-old little girl.
There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today and it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
911 OPERATOR: Ok. What is the 3-year-old`s name?
ANTHONY: Caylee. C-a-y-l-e-e Anthony.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Here now with more about what went on in the courtroom are Ryan Smith, host for "In Session" on TruTV; Susan Filan, legal analyst and former prosecutor; and Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and contributor to care.com.
Ryan, can you set the scene in court today for us?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION": Sure. Joy, a tremendous -- I would say one of the biggest days we`ve seen in this case so far, and it definitely featured the most important testimony we`ve seen. It started out with the prosecution guiding Cindy Anthony through the timeline up to the point of where she found the car. Where she and George were called to a lot where the car had been dropped off and had a smell in that car that she initially thought might smell like death.
She went back on that statement but said at one point she found Caylee`s doll polished it up with some Clorox. You could see in her eyes the emotion welling up as she talked about this doll.
Then they played the 911 calls and this was the biggest moment we`ve seen in this trial so far. It went through a progression of three different calls. And the third call, Joy, was the one where she finally finds out from Casey that Caylee has been missing for 31 days.
She was on the stand breaking down, could barely take her head off the counter. That`s how painful it was for her to hear. After that, they played a call from jail that Casey had made to her family where Casey just seemed absolutely frustrated with her family, focusing on trying to find Caylee instead of focusing on her situation.
So we saw a very bad situation in court for today for Casey and a very tough situation for her mother, Cindy, as she testified and broke down crying as she tried to get through it.
BEHAR: It doesn`t really look good for Casey, does it?
SUSAN FILAN, FORMER PROSECUTOR: It doesn`t look good for her at all. The defense has painted themselves into a very, very, dark, difficult and damaging corner, because their defense was essentially to throw her family under the bus. And if that backfires this jury is going to hate her.
When you see that sobbing grandmother on the stand, the jury`s going to have to ask themselves could those be crocodile tears? Could those be fake tears or is she so credible and she`s so sincere, the only way a mother would take the stand against her own daughter is because she`s going to be convicted?
BEHAR: And you heard what Ryan said and also you heard it in the 911 that the mother called the police and said I smell something, a dead body it seems like, but then when the defense pushed her -- I was watching it before -- when the defense pushed her, he said to her, did you call so that the police would come -- did you say that so that the police would come and she said yes. So was it made up or --
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: But it doesn`t mean she wasn`t telling the truth. It sounds like she was, you know, in the moment and she was honestly reporting what her experience was and at the same time she wanted the police to come over and take her cries very seriously.
BEHAR: Ok. Now, Casey also spoke in that 911 call from July 20 `08 played today in court. I want you to watch this part now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you tell me a little bit of what`s going on?
CASEY ANTHONY, ACCUSED OF KILLING DAUGHTER: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you know who has her?
CASEY ANTHONY: I know who has her, I tried to contact her. I actually received a phone call today now from a number that is no longer in service. I did get to speak to my daughter for about a moment, about a minute.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Ok. Robi, you can hear the affect, it`s a little flat. Whereas the mother, the mother -- Ryan, you too, you hear the mother more emotional. What do you make of that? What`s your case study here say to you?
LUDWIG: Well, I think Casey Anthony --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Wait a minute, Ryan. I`m talking to the shrink now.
LUDWIG: I was just going to say that I think Casey Anthony is the classic antisocial personality disorder personality.
BEHAR: She is.
LUDWIG: She`s somebody who is so disconnected from feeling emotions on behalf of anybody other than herself. And we can hear that in this phone call.
There are some people who are sociopathic who have a lot more emotion in their voice. She does not.
BEHAR: She`s cut off.
LUDWIG: She`s very cut off.
BEHAR: Although she did cry in court a couple of times.
LUDWIG: But she might have been crying for herself. See, sociopaths, people who have anti-social personality disorder, they feel depressed for themselves, they feel like they`re victims.
BEHAR: Narcissism.
LUDWIG: They feel sad for themselves. Just not for anybody else, which is what makes them so dangerous.
BEHAR: Ok. Ryan, how did Casey react in court today to her mom`s testimony?
SMITH: You know, it was very interesting, Joy. At times she had no reaction at all. She just seemed stone-faced, kind of looking down, or just kind of focused away from her mother. At other times when they talked about Caylee, she did well up and you saw her wiping tears from her eyes.
But in that phone call you just mentioned, one thing that was telling is she said in the call -- this is on July 15th -- she says I did talk to my daughter for about a minute. That`s on that night. So we now know that she was lying about that. And that becomes the biggest problem for the defense in this case. Where does the lying end and the truth begin?
BEHAR: Well, you said before that the defense has painted themselves into a corner. What is the defense that they could have had? There is no defense. Everything seems to be against this girl.
FILAN: Keep your mouth shut and simply attack the state`s case because the state`s case does have a giant hole in it. They don`t know for sure what the cause of death is. So if they just kept attacking the state`s case and say you can`t prove it. You don`t have proof beyond a reasonable doubt. But to come up with this other theory which is based on somebody who we now know to be a cold-blooded liar, we`re now going to believe that she`s a cold-blooded killer too.
BEHAR: But why did the mother believe the lies? I mean the kid was missing for 31 days and she kept saying, I`m here, I`m there, the nanny --
FILAN: Wishful thinking -- hope against hope.
LUDWIG: She wanted to --
BEHAR: What is that about?
LUDWIG: If you raise a daughter, who kills her own daughter, how then do you feel about yourself? You feel like a failure.
BEHAR: You said she was an anti-social character disorder -- whatever you said before --
LUDWIG: Right.
BEHAR: Well, the parents raised her.
LUDWIG: Yes, but you can`t always blame the parents. I mean you can have a bad kid and have parents who are good people. We don`t like to think about it, and you can have the opposite be true.
BEHAR: But then, wouldn`t -- wait a second, let me just ask one more question about that. If you have a kid who`s the bad seed as you`re describing her, and the parents are pretty normal people. The father`s a cop, the mother seems adequate, she seems like a strong personality, you don`t see that that psychosis is building when they`re a little kid? When they`re teenagers and you don`t get treatment for them?
LUDWIG: Well, maybe you do, but also, you know, there is denial when it comes to parenthood and maybe the child is really good at seducing the parents. Listen, when you`re a parent, you want to believe you have good, talented, smart children and anything to the contrary is very, very difficult to face.
BEHAR: Well, reality sucks, you know?
LUDWIG: Yes.
BEHAR: Ryan, what were you going to say?
RYAN: You know, what I was going to say was -- what I was going to say was there was mention today in court there might be some jealousy between the two. This is a theme that we`ve heard throughout this trial and this case and we`ve been looking at it for the past three years; this idea that Cindy and Casey had this complicated mother-and-daughter relationship and that at one point there was a belief that Casey felt jealous because Cindy was lavishing so much attention on Caylee.
So there is that dynamic there. But I have to say, when you look at Casey, remember the defense`s theory here is that the lies and all the imagination that she made up is because of her dysfunctional family background. And in a sense she suppressed all of this because of how bad her family was to her.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That`s the defense`s claim, and what you`re saying they painted themselves in a corner on this one too?
FILAN: Absolutely. Because rather than coming out with this crazy harebrained defense that she was molested as a child, which doesn`t mean she didn`t murder her child and that the child actually drowned and the father covered it up, which is just preposterous, because again, we`ve now seen her lie upon lie upon lie.
We know she`s a liar based on her own testimony in court through the 911 tapes, how are we supposed to believe this defense?
And you know what, this isn`t family feud. We really don`t need to get into the psycho drama of the Anthony family. It`s a murder trial. So what does the evidence show? What does the evidence prove? I think what`s going to be difficult for the defense is after the state is done proving its case they have not aimed at reasonable doubt which is what the bull`s eye would have been.
BEHAR: I thought they were aiming at reasonable doubt when they said that the father molested her. Even if it wasn`t true, they raised the specter of molestation which then leads to the mental illness.
FILAN: You use that at the mitigation phase. You use that at the penalty phase.
BEHAR: You don`t use it now.
FILAN: You say save her life, don`t kill her. She killed her daughter but don`t kill her because this is how she was raised. But to make this giant red herring the center of her defense --
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: But somebody being molested doesn`t make them --It doesn`t turn them into having anti-social personality disorder.
BEHAR: Of course not.
LUDWIG: I don`t know -- and also when you meet Casey Anthony`s parents and I`ve seen them on "The Today Show", they just look like two people who have just gotten beaten. I mean they seem like very credible people. They just seem like they`re horrified by what`s going on.
BEHAR: Right. Ryan go ahead.
SMITH: Yes. You know there`s one way -- when you talk about the dysfunctional family and what went on here, there is one way that the defense can make the point they`re trying to make, that there was abuse, that this was an accident, but there`s only one way as I see it right now and that is if Casey takes the stand.
(CROSSTALK)
LUDWIG: Yes.
SMITH: Because even as you look at the accident in this case, they`re saying George and Casey were the ones who saw the aftermath of all that. George has already said that didn`t happen. The only way to do that is if Casey takes the stand.
BEHAR: Susan disagrees.
FILAN: If she takes the stand she is going to be subject to a withering, bristle -- bristling -- brutal cross-examination. She can`t survive it.
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: Yes, I`m not saying she will. I`m not saying she will. I`m not saying she will; I`m saying that`s how they make their defense. I`m not saying she will.
FILAN: They can`t -- they can`t make the lynchpin of their defense her testimony. And if that`s what they`ve done, they`ve walked straight into what we`re going to call ineffective assistance of counsel. That would be lunacy.
BEHAR: Well, we keep bringing up the fact that O.J. Simpson never took the stand if you recall and he was let off.
FILAN: Oh that was the glove.
BEHAR: Yes, right. Yes, yes.
FILAN: That was the glove. And I think if the prosecution puts on the can of death and has the jury smell it for themselves that`s going to be the equivalent of the O.J. glove. Because if they open that can and the jury doesn`t smell it that`s going to be like if the glove don`t --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The can of death?
FILAN: The can -- that they`ve captured the smell of death from the trunk of the car, so they say, in the can. And they`ve asked the judge, can we please open this can and have the jury smell for themselves --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Oh my God.
FILAN: -- this smell of death that we`re talking about, so you don`t have to just take Cindy Anthony`s word for it or George Anthony`s word for it, smell it for yourself.
BEHAR: And this is a terrible question. The smell of death for a human being is different from a dog, let`s say, or cat?
FILAN: Unmistakable. There`s nothing like it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Wow, that`s interesting.
FILAN: And once you smell it, it`s stuck in your nose for life.
BEHAR: Ok thank you very much, guys.
When we come back I`ll talk to George and Cindy Anthony`s former lawyer.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We`re back talking about the Casey Anthony trial with attorney Susan Filan and joining our conversation is Brad Conway, the former attorney for Cindy and George Anthony.
Brad, what do you think of the defense strategy to portray George as an abuser?
BRAD CONWAY, FORMER ATTORNEY OF GEORGE AND CINDY ANTHONY: Very, very poor choice, Joy. If you take their explanation of what happened, any attorney with just a little bit of common sense and experience would have been at the prosecution`s desk the day after he or she knew about it, saying, here`s what happened. We need to work this out and we need to find the body and put her to rest and wrap this thing up now.
BEHAR: Had you heard of any alleged abuse before? Was there any proof? Did -- was there any -- when she was a kid, did she tell somebody this happened? Anything?
CONWAY: No, Joy.
BEHAR: No.
CONWAY: Like everything else, this is -- this is another figment of her imagination.
The first time that it ever came out was her letters to Robin Adams in the jail where she says "Lee is the one that was molesting me, I think maybe dad did, but I`m not sure."
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The brother.
FILAN: The brother.
BEHAR: Oh, I see.
CONWAY: And -- and -- and then it -- it comes out in Mr. Baez`s opening statement.
BEHAR: Well, she lies about so many things that you really can`t believe anything she says. I mean, really.
By the way, Brad, you`re their former lawyer. Why are you not their present lawyer? Just -- I`m just curious.
CONWAY: Joy, I resigned because Mr. Baez filed a motion where he claimed that Mark (INAUDIBLE) and I had done things that were absolutely untrue. Even if they were true, they were not improper, but as an attorney, as an officer of the court, I can`t sit by and let another lawyer make misrepresentations and do nothing about it.
BEHAR: What -- what`s you`re -- you want to say something, Susan?
FILAN: I`m just listening.
BEHAR: You`re just listening. What`s your opinion of George Anthony, Brad?
CONWAY: A good man.
BEHAR: He`s nice?
CONWAY: A good, hard working man. Good, honest man.
BEHAR: A good man. So you believe him when he`s -- when he`s on the stand and -- he seems credible. He seems credible.
CONWAY: Joy, I don`t have any doubt about what he says -- zero.
BEHAR: And what about Cindy? What do you think of her?
CONWAY: Same thing. You can see the emotion. It`s in the 911 calls. It`s in her face when she takes the stand. All you have to do is -- is look, be an observer. You don`t have to be trained. You don`t have to be a professional.
BEHAR: Yes.
CONWAY: Just a human being.
BEHAR: And Casey, we were just talking about it in another segment.
CONWAY: Right.
BEHAR: She seems cut off and like no affect, you know? There`s something wrong with her, it seems. And she doesn`t connect --
(CROSSTALK)
CONWAY: No, I --
BEHAR: -- her feelings, she`s away from her own feelings.
CONWAY: I think when there is emotion it -- it`s contrived or -- or somehow it gets away from her control but it`s -- but it`s very limited and it`s very quick and it`s see-through, to me.
BEHAR: Susan why -- what do you think is the next thing that`s going to happen in this trial?
FILAN: Well, I think the prosecution is just going to keep advancing its case brick by brick by brick, witness by witness, and they actually have a theory of the case that`s supported by evidence. And that`s what`s so difficult for the defense. They have a wild theory, the defense. But the only thing that supports it would be Casey`s word. And --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Casey`s word is useless at this point.
FILAN: Please. Please.
BEHAR: Do you agree with that Brad?
FILAN: House of cards. Defense based on a house of cards.
CONWAY: I -- I totally agree with Susan. The defense has painted themselves into a corner. She now has to testify. And when she does --
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: And she can`t.
CONWAY: She`s going to get torn up by the prosecutors.
FILAN: Yes, we know she can`t testify. She may have to, but she cannot. And the thing is --
(CROSSTALK)
CONWAY: Oh, no.
FILAN: What -- what really bothers me, is that if the defense walks her straight into the jaws of conviction, what they`ve done is they really positioned themselves very poorly for the penalty phase because how do you save this girl`s life? How do you say to the jury, believe her now when the defense is based on a lie? And how do you get sympathy for somebody who says my dad really killed her.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
FILAN: My dad and then my mom helped with the cover-up. My mom and dad?
BEHAR: I know.
FILAN: You blame your mom and dad for killing your own daughter? That`s the problem with the defense. It`s bad on two levels. It`s not going to work at trial and it`s going to get her the death penalty at the penalty phase.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And she`s -- she`s going to get that. But you know what? Someone told me the other day that no mother who kills their children has gotten the death penalty in the history of this country.
FILAN: Mothers who go for the insanity defense --
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Yes.
FILAN: -- have a much better --
BEHAR: You have to be crazy to kill a child. And that`s the point.
CONWAY: Well, that or diminished -- diminished capacity. They could have gone for diminished capacity.
FILAN: The heat of passion, something. Right.
CONWAY: And it goes back to what I said earlier. You want to save her life? You get into the state attorney`s office right away, you tell them what happened and you go from there.
(CROSSTALK)
FILAN: But everybody --
CONWAY: You don`t wait until a grand jury indicts for a first degree murder.
FILAN: And everybody hates her now. How do you save her life when everybody hates her now?
CONWAY: Yes.
BEHAR: Ok, thanks very much, guys. Thank you.
We`ll be back after a quick break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: My next guest is the co-host of the fourth hour of "Today", Miss Kathie Lee Gifford. You know, previous to this segment we were talking about a serious topic, which was the Casey Anthony story.
KATHIE LEE GIFFORD, NBC CO-HOST: Right.
BEHAR: Have you been following it at all?
GIFFORD: As little as I possibly can, Joy. It`s so heart breaking to me. This beautiful young child is dead and somebody`s responsible for it. And I just can`t -- I can`t watch all the human drama take place. The point is the child is gone.
BEHAR: Yes.
GIFFORD: I`m just hoping that some justice will be done. But I get no pleasure out of watching people that are in pain. I can`t do it.
BEHAR: I don`t care for it.
GIFFORD: That`s why I can`t watch reality shows. I just can`t watch human beings being degraded so much. I can`t stand it.
BEHAR: Well, you mean like the housewives shows? They`re in pain?
GIFFORD: Well, they cause pain. You know? It`s just all the angst, the drama, all the -- you know. You know what I miss? I miss the days when I would do the show on "Good Morning America" and then Regis and I -- and you and I used to interview talented people for a living. That`s what we did. Now we interview, you know, reality stars. And --
BEHAR: Well, some of it. I love it.
I have a lot of really smart -- I had Malcolm McDowell on the other night, I had Debbie Reynolds.
GIFFORD: Caligula.
BEHAR: Well, he did "Clockwork Orange".
GIFFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: He was great --
GIFFORD: No, he`s a great actor.
BEHAR: We had Barry Manilow here. We don`t just do housewives here.
GIFFORD: No, I know. It just that there`s a preponderance. You look at the landscape of television, because it`s cheap. And it gets -- it`s water cooler talk and -- but it`s -- long-term, I just think it`s bad for our culture, really bad.
BEHAR: Yes. I guess you`re right. But I think that there`re more channels. They have to fill them up with more people and not everybody`s a brain trust, Kathie.
GIFFORD: No, I don`t want to just watch but I want to be entertained. I want to see shows that -- "I Love Lucy", "All in the Family". I want good writing back on television.
BEHAR: Well, some of the sitcoms have been good, I mean over the years, you know. There have been "Friends" and "Seinfeld" and --
GIFFORD: And they`re not on anymore, that`s my point.
BEHAR: The "Modern Family".
GIFFORD: That one my daughter loves that. I go to bed so early because of the show.
BEHAR: What time do you get up?
GIFFORD: 5:00. You know, Frank and I are old. Why?
BEHAR: Why do you get up at 5:00? The show is not on until 10:00.
GIFFORD: Because I live in the country and I have found that if I spend an hour before I do anything else having a quiet time or devotions in my life, everything has changed in my life since I did that.
BEHAR: So it`s 5:00 you do devotions. What do you say? What do you do?
GIFFORD: There`s two little books of devotions that I read and then I read scripture and then I read a concordance -- it`s about this thick -- that gives you insight into it and --
BEHAR: When do you read your research?
GIFFORD: Oh, when I get to -- in the car when I get to the studio. I get up at 5:00. I leave the house at 6:30, we have a meeting at 8:15 and I`m on the air at 10:00.
BEHAR: Yes. Ok. So from -- all right, but -- so if you could skip the devotions you could sleep an hour later.
GIFFORD: Why am I not surprised? And I would skip probably the most important time of my day. I think that`s what`s also kind of missing in our life.
BEHAR: Let me just -- 8:00 at night?
GIFFORD: 9:00. Doesn`t mean I`m not kicking it until 9:00.
BEHAR: Is it safe to say you never watched my show?
GIFFORD: Pretty safe to say.
BEHAR: We`ll be back with more from Kathie Lee in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: For 15 years, Kathie Lee Gifford spent every morning with Regis Philbin, which could drive a girl to drink, which is what she does now every day with Hoda Kotb. How do you say her name?
GIFFORD: Kotb. But if you really say it the Egyptian way, it`s sort of Kotb, but we don`t speak Egyptian over there. So--
BEHAR: She`s on every day in the fourth hour of the --
(CROSSTALK)
GIFFORD: Or we call it the umpteenth hour of "The Today Show," that`s right.
BEHAR: You`re having a lot of fun over there.
GIFFORD: I am. I am. I really didn`t expect it to be -- I knew that Hoda and I would have a good show, because she`s a trained professional, and we had a lunch together before we started working together. That tells you everything, you have a lunch with somebody. If you laugh, you cry, you talk about deep things, you get to know somebody.
BEHAR: What if you didn`t like each other?
GIFFORD: Then I wouldn`t have done the show. No, life`s too short.
BEHAR: It is too short.
GIFFORD: At this point in our lives, are you going to -- well, you don`t always get along with everybody you work with, but there`s a respect there.
BEHAR: This time we do. This group we get along very well. Over the years it`s been here and there, a little problematic.
GIFFORD: Of course.
BEHAR: Mostly the diva behavior is what I can`t take.
GIFFORD: I know.
BEHAR: So you don`t want anybody sitting there with you who thinks that she`s all that.
GIFFORD: All that.
BEHAR: And she knows who she is also.
GIFFORD: Shall remain nameless.
BEHAR: Since I say she, it could be any of them, right?
GIFFORD: That`s exactly right.
BEHAR: We`ve gone through quite a few. Now on your show, you revealed -- you went on the show without makeup and you show up in pajamas. What is wrong with you? Why do you go on television without your makeup? What is the point?
GIFFORD: Why not? Why not? We were just trying to make a statement about we aren`t what we put on our face.
BEHAR: Yes, we are, Kathie. There`s (inaudible), we are exactly what we put on our face.
GIFFORD: I`m surprised how much I didn`t care. For 44 years I`ve been putting on the makeup. You know, putting on the -- and all of a sudden it was like, you know what? What we need more in the world is authenticity, I think. You know, so much of what we call reality television isn`t real at all. So I guess we were just trying to say, this is really who we are. Like us or dislike us, but on an honest basis, and it got a lot of attention.
BEHAR: I know it did. I know.
GIFFORD: And then we did with our weight and then we did--
BEHAR: And you got on a scale, the two of you.
GIFFORD: Yes, we did that, yes, we told the truth about our weight and we told the truth. I`ve always told the truth about my age.
BEHAR: How much did you weigh?
GIFFORD: At that time, 129 but I`ve lost weight since then. It was good, it got my tail on the treadmill.
BEHAR: Well, hello, if I weighed 129 I`d get on the scale too.
GIFFORD: That was heavy for me. That`s heavy for me.
BEHAR: It`s light for me.
GIFFORD: Well, everything`s relative. Don`t judge people, Joy.
BEHAR: I`m not. But then what`s the--
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
GIFFORD: Look at you, Ms. Cleavage, sitting there.
BEHAR: Well, that`s all I have left. I have this, I have wrists and ankles and that`s it. Everything in between, forget it.
GIFFORD: And you don`t have a peach pit.
BEHAR: What`s a peach pit?
GIFFORD: I was--
BEHAR: You know what Barbara calls this? My poitrine.
GIFFORD: Poitrine.
BEHAR: Yes, poitrine.
GIFFORD: I don`t know where that came from, but I was interviewing Bette Midler, and Bette Midler, I said, Bette, where did it all go? She was all covered up. She goes, oh, honey, after 50, you don`t show it. It`s a peach pit.
BEHAR: Oh, you shouldn`t -- I don`t have a peach pit.
GIFFORD: Mine is.
BEHAR: Yours is a peach pit?
GIFFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: Good.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: 129 pounds. But you have a peach pit.
GIFFORD: No, I`m 124 now.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Skinny bitch. All right, now, Regis, speaking of skinny bitches, he`s leaving. I cannot get over that he`s leaving.
GIFFORD: What a year for television. I mean, Oprah, then Rege.
BEHAR: And Meredith.
GIFFORD: Meredith, oh, so sad Meredith`s going.
BEHAR: Well, Meredith, I mean, she`s -- that`s at the height of her career, she wants to leave. She can`t do the hours, I bet. I bet that`s what it is.
GIFFORD: It`s a combination of things, and only she and the -- you know, the recesses of her heart really knows why. And she`d share it if she felt like she should. She`s, as you know, one of the great women ever.
BEHAR: She`s great. I love her very much.
GIFFORD: One of the great women ever. And she`s got her reasons, and it was a tough decision for her. Because that`s the greatest group of people I`ve ever worked with in my life, over at the "Today Show." It would be hard for me to leave now and I`ve only been there three years. These people are incredible.
BEHAR: Very nice.
GIFFORD: Very, very nice. And Ann`s (ph) going to -- it`s going to be natural. It`s going to be--
BEHAR: Would you have liked that job if they--
GIFFORD: No. No.
BEHAR: You would not.
GIFFORD: I`d be the last person they`d ask for that.
BEHAR: Why?
GIFFORD: I am not -- nobody thinks of me as a serious journalist. That`s ridiculous. And I`m the only person that works over there that`s not under a news contract. Because I said to them, I said, let`s not pretend I`m something I`m not. I am an entertainer, I am performer, I`m a comedienne. That`s what I do. If I can bring that to the fourth hour, which is certainly not hard news, I`m happy to try. And--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You`re showbiz.
GIFFORD: I`ve been in showbiz since I could -- was in diapers, so that`s what I know.
BEHAR: Let`s talk about Regis for a minute.
GIFFORD: OK.
BEHAR: What`s going on? Do you think that -- I know he`s extending his contract now to go through sweeps. He was going to leave at the end of the summer.
GIFFORD: That`s what he told me. I saw him a couple of weeks ago, he and Joy and Frank and I try to have dinner every six weeks or so or every couple of months, and I just think he`s ready. He`s going to be 80 in August.
BEHAR: He is?
GIFFORD: He is.
BEHAR: He doesn`t look it and he doesn`t act it.
GIFFORD: He doesn`t look it and he doesn`t act it. And he`s in great shape. But again, you start to say to yourself, is this what I want to do for the rest of my life? How much time have I got left?
BEHAR: I know, but what is he going to do instead?
GIFFORD: He`s not sure yet.
BEHAR: He doesn`t strike me as the type who`d play golf and go on cruises.
GIFFORD: No.
BEHAR: He needs to be in the middle of everything and talking and yelling.
GIFFORD: Every -- still when we go to dinner, you know what he`s got to do when he walks in -- that`s right, it`s Regis and look who`s with me. She wants her job back. Look who`s here, everybody! I`m going, Regis, Rege, could we just quietly walk in and just sit down? No.
BEHAR: Remember that party we went to at his house recently? I think it was last year?
GIFFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: He takes you on a tour of the house.
GIFFORD: Right.
BEHAR: And goes, if Regis feels like playing pool, this is where he plays pool. If Regis feels like taking a nap, he naps in this room. And on and on like that, with every room.
GIFFORD: But he gets away with it because he`s Mr. Curmudgeon, he`s Mr. Everyman, and everybody loves him.
BEHAR: He`s fun. He`s adorable.
GIFFORD: He`s going to be impossible to fill.
BEHAR: To replace.
GIFFORD: I think so.
BEHAR: Well, who can they get?
GIFFORD: It would have to be somebody completely unknown who comes in and makes it completely theirs and I`m not sure that person exists anymore. But the whole landscape`s changed.
BEHAR: Why doesn`t an unknown person exist for that show? What do you mean?
GIFFORD: Well, I think it would be somebody -- he`s known by his mother, just unknown to the general public, you know?
BEHAR: I know what you mean.
GIFFORD: He might exist but I don`t think it`s something we know right now. The expectations are going to be too high.
BEHAR: They have people like Wayne Brady.
GIFFORD: Who is a doll. He is a doll.
BEHAR: They thought about -- how about Howie Mandel.
GIFFORD: Howie has got some good jobs and Howie is very happy living in California. You know, Howie`s got a good life. I don`t think Howie would want to -- Howie has his own -- who-e (ph) -- Howie -- Howie hosted with me many times, he was my favorite co-host when Regis was gone.
BEHAR: Yes, he`s fine.
GIFFORD: And as a result of that, he got his own show. But it didn`t work. You know, it`s timing, it`s -- it`s what time they put you on, it`s all that good stuff.
BEHAR: OK, well, I have to talk about your book now.
GIFFORD: I know, the reason I`m here.
BEHAR: The reason you`re here is because of "The Legend of Messy M`Cheany."
GIFFORD: Yes.
BEHAR: Not McCheney (ph), M`Cheany.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: And how`d you get this idea? It`s about a kid who`s a mess.
GIFFORD: A big mess. Actually, the person that`s responsible who is the real Messy M`Cheany is my daughter Cassidy.
BEHAR: How old is Cassidy?
GIFFORD: Cassidy is going to be 18 in August.
BEHAR: Stop it.
GIFFORD: But I wrote the lyrics to this book, the words to it, when she was 7. And so she said to me back then, mom, you`ve got to make it about a boy, everybody is going to know it`s me. Now she doesn`t care.
BEHAR: Was she a messy kid, really?
GIFFORD: She -- I could bathe her, and put her to bed in her crib. Right? She`s actually in prison, right, in a crib. I`d come in in the morning, and she`d -- there she is -- she would have dirt under her fingernails. I`d go, where did you go? Do you have a secret life at night where I -- where -- how do you get dirty? What do you do? And, of course, she couldn`t even talk to tell me, but now she`s the most pristine, perfectly put together thing you`d see in the world. But if you go into her bedroom or her closet, or her bedroom, her bathroom, please.
BEHAR: Neat.
GIFFORD: No!
BEHAR: She`s still a mess.
GIFFORD: She`s still a Messy M`Cheany.
BEHAR: What about Cody (ph)?
GIFFORD: I have a gag order on Cody.
BEHAR: How old is he?
GIFFORD: I can say that he`s 21. He`s 6`4 and 210 pounds, that`s all I`m allowed to say.
BEHAR: Why?
GIFFORD: Gag order.
BEHAR: Why, he doesn`t want you to talk about him anymore.
GIFFORD: No.
BEHAR: Because you did it a lot in the old days.
GIFFORD: Not so much. The press made a whole bunch about it. When I was a young mother -- emphasis on young -- and my kids were little, that`s all I had to talk about on my show. Regis was out every night, he had a gag order about his kids that were older. So it was left to me to bring -- you bring your life to that show and they`re my life.
BEHAR: I know.
GIFFORD: But then I left too at the height of everything when my kids got to the point where they didn`t want to be talked about. I left eight years before I came back to "The Today Show."
BEHAR: My daughter does not allow it. She will not.
GIFFORD: Well, kids want to be -- they want to define themselves.
BEHAR: But they don`t want you talking about them on television. I don`t blame these kids. So Cody doesn`t want you to do it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What is he doing, he was a sports announcer?
GIFFORD: No, he -- he worked a little on the "Today Show" last year, he`s in film school. So he`s a senior now.
BEHAR: Good for him.
GIFFORD: He`s in film school.
BEHAR: You think you`re a good mother, Kathie Lee? Were you a good mother?
GIFFORD: I know I was.
BEHAR: You were.
GIFFORD: Yes. And I know I continue to be because it`s my greatest priority. You know?
BEHAR: And grandchildren one of these days.
GIFFORD: Yes, but not too soon, baboon. You know?
BEHAR: Who are you calling a baboon? What does this mean?
GIFFORD: That`s how you talk to the kids. Not too soon, baboon. After a while, crocodile. You know, all that stuff starts coming back when you start writing children`s books.
This was the second in the series. And hopefully I`ll have one come out every year, I hope, because I wrote this album 10 years ago that I never marketed. It was a little album called "Party Animals," and so many of the songs on there would make great illustrated books. So that`s what we`re doing now. And this illustrator is a guy from Copenhagen, Denmark I`ve never met.
BEHAR: Peter Bay Alexanderson (ph).
GIFFORD: He`s so great. I`ve never met him. We`ve had two babies together, he`s like a sperm bank. You know? I`ve never met the man, but I have two children with him.
BEHAR: This picture is a little bit much.
GIFFORD: Yes, because he makes a mess everywhere he goes. And his mother -- that`s right. She`s not going to beat him, she just wants him to clean up. It does look like a little demon possession there, doesn`t it? Yes. That`s not me.
BEHAR: It`s Mommy Dearest.
GIFFORD: That`s not me.
BEHAR: Yes. All right, Kathie. It`s been lovely seeing you again.
GIFFORD: This is it? This is the big--
BEHAR: That`s it, baby.
GIFFORD: Boy.
BEHAR: Her new book is called "The Legend of Messy M`Cheany."
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: I did read it. Didn`t I read it with the producer? I actually read this book. It took me five minutes. We`ll be right back.
GIFFORD: You`re reading at a sixth-grade level. Good girl
BEHAR: I am. I am.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: This week Sarah Palin embarked on a bus tour of the northeast. Why? If she`s not running for president, then she`s just a housewife on a bus, like those ladies who go to Atlantic City to play the slots. Just saying.
Here to talk about her magical mystery tour and other stories in the news are Rob Shuter, AOL`s Popeater columnist. Comedian Judy Gold and Hillary Winston, author of "My Boyfriend Wrote a Book About Me."
Now let me tell you something. Tonight I understand Ms. Palin had dinner with Donald Trump.
ROB SHUTER, AOL`S POPEATER COLUMNIST: It`s true. She`s here in New York. The bus stopped in New York, surprise stop. She had dinner with Donald. The interesting thing about this bus tour is she has told nobody where the bus is going. Including the Republican Party of New Hampshire and the different states that she`s stopping in.
BEHAR: Really.
SHUTER: She`s not a team player. This is Sarah Palin`s moment.
JUDY GOLD, COMEDIAN: Well, I`m not supposed to mention it, but they`re all having shabat (ph) dinner with me Friday night.
(LAUGHTER)
GOLD: Just saying. Cat`s out of the bag.
BEHAR: Do you think Trump will scrutinize the heck out of it?
(LAUGHTER)
GOLD: This isn`t real!
BEHAR: Now, what else is this dog and pony show about then? She may or may not run. I mean, what is she doing?
SHUTER: It`s interesting. She really hasn`t said. I think it`s a way to get her back into the headlines. Being cynical, being not cynical, maybe she really is testing the water and seeing what people think about her.
BEHAR: What do you think?
HILARY WINSTON, AUTHOR: Well, you know, I actually started out very conservative. I grew up in Texas and I used to wear shirts that say "I don`t believe the liberal media." And one of the things that is interesting --
GOLD: Get out.
BEHAR: She`s kidding. We love Texas. It`s a great state.
WINSTON: It is a great state, and I think that she`s waiting to see how the media is going to treat her. You know, she`s decided that she was going to do her own press on this tour. She`s going to give updates at the end of each day, about what she did all day, like a little diary.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Are you a fan? Do you still like her?
WINSTON: I`m not. I actually ended up interning for Clinton and I became a Democrat in the process.
BEHAR: For Hillary Clinton.
WINSTON: No, I interned for Bill Clinton.
BEHAR: Oh, for Bill. Did he hit on you?
WINSTON: He didn`t, which really hurt my feelings. Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: That would hurt my feelings too. I mean, he goes for Monica Lewinsky and not beautiful Hilary. What is up with that?
WINSTON: Very depressing. All I got was a lousy tote bag and some M&Ms.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: All right. So now, one news outlet she has spoken to is Fox. OK?
GOLD: What?
BEHAR: Yes, Fox, I know. It`s shocking.
GOLD: Wow.
BEHAR: But here`s the thing about her. If she`s going to run for president, doesn`t she have to come on my show, go meet with Katie Couric again? Go on "Meet the Press?" How is she going to pull this off?
SHUTER: It`s interesting, because Fox have not let her go yet. They have let other people go that were running for president. So the fact that she`s still on Fox`s payroll has left many people to believe that she`s not running. This is a way for her to get ahead -- her name back in the headlines.
BEHAR: And to not really do anything with it, though, just make more money, write another book, get her kid another house in Arizona.
GOLD: Maybe she`s going to go on "Celebrity Apprentice." Maybe that`s what the dinner with Donald Trump was about.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: Oh, that would be good.
BEHAR: I hope NeNe Leakes is on with her.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If they move into the White House, it would be like the Beverly Hillbillies.
BEHAR: OK, moving on. The author of a new book called "Primetime Propaganda" is accusing the children`s show "Sesame Street" of promoting a left-wing liberal agenda. Wait a second. Wasn`t Oscar the Grouch based on Dick Cheney? I don`t understand that. I don`t get it. Now, what do you think about that? You have kids.
GOLD: You know, I have kids, and we watch Sesame Street a lot and I mean, it`s ridiculous. I mean, it`s beyond ridiculous. If puppets ruled the world, then Fox News would have -- oh, right.
(LAUGHTER)
GOLD: So, but if you look closely on Fox News, when they change the lighting, you can see the strings on Glenn Beck`s arm. But it`s --
BEHAR: Here`s a question. Do you think Lamb Chop was a lesbian?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: The way she acted, little Lamb Chop, I thought she was a lesbian.
GOLD: Yes, she was a little diky. Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
SHUTER: Remember when the Teletubbies were accused of being gay?
GOLD: Oh, yes, they were gay.
SHUTER: So this is not the first. This is a sort of a very easy way- -
BEHAR: It`s sort of a fight -- it`s a war against public television possibly, because they don`t really take on the rest of like "South Park" is merciless.
GOLD: But they also mentioned "Happy Days."
BEHAR: Yes, what did they say about that?
GOLD: They said that it was against the Vietnam War. You know, Arnold Shriver (ph) was a total communist hangout. So they had that, they mentioned "M.A.S.H."
BEHAR: "M.A.S.H." was--
GOLD: Was against the Korean War. And a pacifist--
BEHAR: They were pro-pacifism.
GOLD: Right.
BEHAR: How can you be against pacifism, really? It`s really about people who don`t believe in war. And that show, "M.A.S.H.," was an anti- war show for sure. It showed you the blood and the gore of a war. And they say, who are these people and why do they have --
(CROSSTALK)
SHUTER: Michelle Obama just appeared on Sesame Street. So I don`t know if that`s got anything to do with it.
BEHAR: Well, Laura Bush was on.
SHUTER: It`s true, but they forget very quickly I think that many different people appear on these shows.
BEHAR: Yes.
WINSTON: You know, there`s a show "Veggie Tales," which I don`t know if you guys have ever watched, it`s animated vegetables but it`s Christian, and it was on NBC. It`s a very popular show.
BEHAR: Oh, my God, an eggplant is a communist if ever I`ve seen one. Are you have kidding me? Finish your thought. I`m sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
WINSTON: The idea is that it`s funny that it`s like going after Sesame Street when there is plenty of shows -- I mean, let`s say it is really a liberal show, what`s wrong with that?
BEHAR: Exactly. I don`t think it is, though. No, it`s for kids. I mean, they took on CNN, they call it GNN, which stands for Grouch News Network. Walter Cranky, Dan Rather Not. I mean, these conservatives need to take a joke.
OK, we`ll have more pop culture when we come back. We`re not done with this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: And I`m back with my very happy panel tonight. You know, a lot of people believe and dream of taking revenge on their ex. Who doesn`t, when you break up? You, Hilary, you took it to another level. You and your boyfriend wrote revenge books about each other.
WINSTON: Yes.
BEHAR: And you exposed every dirty, miserable, detail of the relationship.
WINSTON: Yes.
BEHAR: Are you proud of yourself?
WINSTON: I am, because he started it. Right?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Why did he do that?
WINSTON: You know, he just got disillusioned with relationships. We dated five years, he wrote a fictional book, and I`m very similar to the girlfriend.
(CROSSTALK)
WINSTON: Her name is Hilary. Right? Very close to that. So I thought, well, the best way -- you know, I`m a TV writer. I`ll go and I will write a book -- I`ll learn how to write a book to do it and seek out my revenge.
BEHAR: What was the worst thing he said about you?
WINSTON: Well, throughout the book, he calls, you know, the long-term girlfriend, his fat-ass girlfriends. So the first page I opened to said my fat-ass girlfriend takes Groundlings classes -- and Groundlings is this comedy theater in L.A. where I took classes the whole time we dated. And I thought, this couldn`t be a coincidence. And the whole book is just--
(CROSSTALK)
GOLD: Did you went and looked at your ass in the mirror?
WINSTON: I knew it was bigger than average. I didn`t need his book to tell me that.
BEHAR: And what was the word before -- what was the worst thing you said about him?
WINSTON: Well, I end the introduction chapter by saying he has white ball hairs.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: He has gray hair on his testicles?
WINSTON: White. White.
BEHAR: Yes. White?
(CROSSTALK)
WINSTON: At 23.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Maybe he has that disease that they do on the --
GOLD: No pigmentation.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Judy, how do you feel about a revenge book?
GOLD: You know, I --
BEHAR: Because you do plenty of revenge in your act.
GOLD: I have a little -- I use my act. But I don`t -- I mean, I think it`s great for you, but I have kids with the person, so I don`t think I should have a book.
BEHAR: Why? You do it in public. You shout it from the rooftops. You`re not exactly circumspect on this topic.
GOLD: I`m not circumcised either.
BEHAR: Well, apparently her ex-husband is--
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: OK, we have 30 seconds left. What do you think of Snooki running into the cop car in Florence?
GOLD: I got the (inaudible) -- I just want you to know, I know it was an accident. She was distracted because she was looking for the Olive Garden. And I heard that from a very good source.
BEHAR: She`s not used to driving sober. That`s what happened.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Hilary, any parting words?
WINSTON: About Snooki? I would say, well, I feel bad about those guys, the wusses who went to the hospital for a fender bender.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The cops?
WINSTON: Yeah.
BEHAR: Now she`s really -- now you`ve really done it.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Thank you, everybody. Good to see you. Judy Gold`s one-woman show, "The Judy Show," begins previews at New York`s Doctor Two (ph) theater. What?
GOLD: Darrel Rook (ph) -- DR2, DR2 theater.
BEHAR: I`m reading Dr. 2 up there. DR2 on June 30th. It opens on July 7th. I`ll just say that it`s a very funny show.
GOLD: Oh, thank you.
BEHAR: Good night, everybody. Thank you for watching.
END
