Return to Transcripts main page
Dr. Drew
Jury Hears Casey Anthony`s Web of Lies
Aired June 02, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: All right. Here we go.
Casey caught in lies and more lies. We`re hearing for the first time the shocking full interrogation tapes and jailhouse recordings of a vain and callous Casey, laughing and pouting.
And later, the agony of grieving in the spotlight. Rusty Yates lived that tragic nightmare when his wife Andrea killed their five kids. I`m talking to him, tonight, about this case.
Let`s get started.
It is day eight of the Casey Anthony trial, and we have some intense new audio of cops trying to break Casey down.
Take a look, and then we`re going to talk.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives, they`re tired of Casey`s lies.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know that everything that you`ve told me is a lie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s recorded. The jury, all of us, will get to hear it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s out there somewhere, and her rotting body is starting to decompose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She doesn`t crack there at all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s some of the best evidence that this prosecution has so far.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police had already busted Casey on the fictional Zanny the nanny.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The stuff about Zanny, it`s not the truth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s another lie.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Universal Studios, she took them there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s coming up to the security gate with two officers in tow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then she finally fesses up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Puts her hands in her back pocket and said, "I don`t work here."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would inspire her to lie?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So many lies, folks.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t figure it out.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: Yes, I can`t figure it out either. I`ve got to tell you, I know there`s evidence coming, but so far all I`ve seen is the following: lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies.
That`s -- and in my world, I deal with that a lot with patients because they`re addicts. And addicts, that`s their history very often. But I don`t see evidence that Casey is an addict, even though there`s reports of her allegedly having done drugs. I don`t see addiction here.
So it`s really -- like that examiner was saying, it`s hard to make sense of this.
I actually read the transcripts of the interrogation tapes this morning, and it was a strange experience, I must tell you. It was sent to me on my phone, and I was reading -- I was literally coming downstairs first thing in the morning, and I did not make it down the stairs until I read the entire 40-page document.
It`s the craziest thing. And so I know all of us must be -- we`re sort of taken by this -- how bad these lies are, how much her sense of reality seems to be her own little world. But you wonder if it`s coldhearted lying, so to speak, and how frustrating it must be for those interrogators.
Now, you kind of want to bang your head into the wall and go, what`s the reality here, where is the truth? And how can somebody buy their own stuff, buy their own nonsense so thoroughly? And it makes no rational sense.
And, in fact, I must tell you, I`ve gone from thinking about child abuse and personality disorders and that kind of stuff as we tried to speculate and float theories about what`s going on here. I`m starting to wonder if she had head injury as a child and maybe she really can`t tell truth from reality.
I don`t know. I don`t know yet. Or she`s just a cold-blooded killer?
We`re going to talk about those possibilities tonight.
Now, is she going to ruin her own defense? In a conversation with her parents behind bars, Casey scoffs at the theory that Caylee drowned in the pool, her very defense.
Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, DEFENDANT: Dad`s blowing up at the media.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Yes, I heard.
CASEY ANTHONY: Well, someone just said that Caylee was dead this morning, that she drowned in the pool. That`s the newest story out there.
CINDY ANTHONY: Surprise, surprise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. So she lies about her defense, she lies about the nanny. The jury hears endless lies.
Now, Casey juggled a web of these intricate, made-up stories that the police -- I actually felt sorry for these guys as I heard their tape and read the transcripts -- they got more and more frustrated. They couldn`t get their head around this just like the rest of us.
Watch this. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: I as a mom, I know in my gut, the feeling as a parent, you know certain things about your child. You can feel that connection. And I still have that feeling, that presence. I know that she`s alive whether you have a bucket load of evidence downstairs that contradicts that and says otherwise, or all you have is speculation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have more than speculation.
CASEY ANTHONY: Has every tip and every lead been followed up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have more than speculation. We have a lot, or else we wouldn`t be to this point.
CASEY ANTHONY: Uh-huh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I must tell you, I`ve dealt with patients like this, where their lies become -- you almost start believing them yourself, and it becomes mind-bending. It`s wild.
We have much more of this intense interrogation as the detectives try to get at what`s going on here and find the little girl.
Let`s go straight to my guests.
I have criminal defense attorney Mark Eiglarsh. He joins us from Florida.
We also have criminal profiler Pat Brown. She`s here with us.
And Ryan Smith, host of "In Session" on truTV. Ryan, of course, is also an attorney.
Ryan, let`s go to you first with an update on what happened today.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Oh, Dr. Drew, when you mentioned the lies, that was front and center, because not only was there the conversation that the police had with her at Universal Studios, where they kept saying, everything you told us is a lie, but Casey did not back off that Zanny the nanny story.
Now, when she met with George and Cindy in the jailhouse, it was the same thing. They had two big concerns -- where`s Caylee, and who is Zanny and where can we find her?
Casey gave such intricate details, it was almost like it was two different people there. But the main thrust of all of this, George Anthony -- you just mentioned the defense there. George Anthony was there saying, where`s Caylee, how can I find her?
And remember, this is the same person the defense is saying tried to cover up the accidental death. So this really hurts the defense, because there he is saying, how can I find my granddaughter? Casey, please help me find her.
PINSKY: Wow. I agree. I watched that, too, and I started thinking about the dad, the granddad, thinking, well, he knows he`s being filmed. Could he be manipulating us, too?
So, for the first time we heard what went on inside the interrogation room. The lead detective in this case took the stand today, and the jury heard him putting the pressure on Casey to tell the truth, something that evidently didn`t work.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DET. YURI MELICH, CASEY ANTHONY INTERROGATION: Everything`s that`s coming out of your mouth is a lie, everything. And unless we start getting the truth -- unless we start getting the truth, we`re going to announce two possibilities with Caylee.
Either you gave Caylee to someone and you don`t want anyone to find out because you think you`re a bad mom, or something happened to Caylee and Caylee is buried somewhere, or in a trashcan somewhere, and you had something to do with it. Either way right now is not a very pretty picture that you paint.
Either way -- either way right now with everything that you`re telling us, you`re painting yourself as a very bad person. Your family is going to suffer for this, your friends are going to suffer for this.
And remember what I told you about all these people coming out there and crucify you for this because of all the lies you`ve been telling us. We need to stop that right now. Everything you told us is a lie.
You`re looking me in the eyes. Everything you told us is a lie, every single thing. And you can`t keep sitting here and telling us the same thing and getting constantly -- over an over and over again, we`re disproving everything that you`re telling us.
You`re telling us that you`ve lied to us, you`re telling us that you`re giving us misinformation. Everything you`re telling us, OK? It needs to end.
CASEY ANTHONY: The truthful thing is I have not seen my daughter. The last time that I saw her was on the 9th of June.
MELICH: And what happened to Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.
MELICH: Sure you do. You need to listen.
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.
MELICH: Something happened to Caylee. We`re not going to discuss the last time you saw her. I`m guessing something bad happened to her some time ago and you haven`t seen her, so that part is true if you say you haven`t seen her, because she`s somewhere else right now.
CASEY ANTHONY: She`s with someone else.
MELICH: No. She`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere. She`s out there somewhere, and her rotting body is starting to decompose because of what you`re telling us.
And here`s the problem. The longer this goes, the worse it`s going to be very everyone. Everyone. The worst it`s going to be for everyone.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Pat Brown, profiler, does the manner in which she lied tell us anything about her or tell you anything about what`s going on in this young woman?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Absolutely, Dr. Drew. I`m not surprised at all by what she`s doing, because Casey to me seems like a full-blown psychopath, and she`s doing what psychopaths do, which is tell - - they make up a pack of lies and they get a real good -- they get them down pretty good because they`re going to manipulate.
They`ve been doing this all their lives. They know how to put together a package of lies, a good story.
They`ll stick with that story unless you can prove to them that you have something that`s going to blow their story out of the water. So she might sit there and say, A, B, C, D, and E happened, and they could say, no, we just found her body.
Oh, OK. Then maybe well then maybe B, C, D, but A didn`t happen. She`ll have to change something when you corner her because she knows you have something, or you have to fake it out real good so she believes you have something you don`t have.
PINSKY: All right.
BROWN: But she`s going to lie as long as she can get away with it. That is a psychopath.
PINSKY: All right. Interesting. Very interesting.
Now, later in the show -- you need to stay with me, because I`m later in the show going to define the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath, all these terms that you`re seeing tossed around.
I want to finish with Mark very quickly, though.
Mark, is it getting tougher to defend this case?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. Today was like a homerun for the prosecutor.
You`re looking over at Casey, thinking now we`ve narrowed it down to one of two theories. One, she either did commit first-degree murder, like they`re alleging, or, as Jose Baez, tells us in opening statement, she knew while she was lying to law enforcement that she had watched her daughter drown, essentially. Either way, what sick, manipulative, abhorrent behavior to waste law enforcement resources the way that she did?
PINSKY: All right. Thank you, Mark.
Coming up, Casey gets caught in her own lies. We have more brand new audio from inside the interrogation room.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you got out of the room you actually spoke with Cindy Anthony?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And it was at this time that you first heard the incident with the pool ladder?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I believe it was at that time where I first heard about the ladder being found down in the pool and the gate being found open, sometime in June.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you find that to be important information, and do you recall giving the answer yes?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I won`t doubt that, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She spins tales, which not all (ph) the time are tales, but all these crazy stories about all this stuff. She also made up a story about her parents, her dad cheating on her mom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is going to be the point where you stop all the lies and you stop all the fibs and you tell us exactly what`s going on.
CINDY ANTHONY: We need to have something to go on.
CASEY ANTHONY: Mom, I don`t have anything. I`m sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know and you know that everything you told me is a lie. Correct?
CASEY ANTHONY: Not everything that I`ve told you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not a bit of useful information has been provided by Ms. Anthony as to the whereabouts of her daughter. I would point out that the truth and Ms. Anthony are strangers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there anything about this story that you`re telling me that`s untrue, or is there anything that you want to change or divert from what you`ve already told me?
CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: How frustrating?
Tonight, Casey Anthony`s endless lies. And the jury is hearing tapes of investigators banging their heads against the wall trying to get -- kind of rationalize with her to get something like the truth out of her.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
MELICH: We need to find Caylee. I understand that right now Caylee may not be in very good shape. You understand what I`m saying? She may not be way we, or your family last remembers her.
We need to find out from you where Caylee is. This, right now, is just -- this is going so far downhill, and this has become such a mess, that we need to end it. It`s very simple. We just need to end it.
CASEY ANTHONY: I agree with you. I have no clue where she is.
MELICH: Sure you do.
CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew, had any sense where she was, this wouldn`t have happened at all.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mark Eiglarsh, defense attorney, I can just imagine how frustrated these detectives must have been knowing this little girl was out there somewhere.
Is this an uncommon scenario that detectives have to beat themselves against the -- beat their heads against the wall to get something out of a person they`re interrogating?
EIGLARSH: It`s not uncommon, and those who have records dating back to the disco crisis, they`re the ones, the career criminals, who lie, they stonewall, and they go right into jail knowing that that`s the best defense. Keep your mouth shut, and the fish doesn`t get caught.
She surprises me. It`s amazing how not only did she lie, but then when confronted with her lie, she lied about lying.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: It really is -- it`s almost -- if it weren`t so tragic, it would be comical.
EIGLARSH: Right.
PINSKY: Pat Brown, profiler, I want to go to you.
You said you that you think she`s a psychopath, right?
BROWN: Absolutely.
PINSKY: And so my question is, why isn`t the prosecution building a case like that? Because psychopaths have sort of a life-long pattern, do they not? And tell us about that.
BROWN: Exactly. A psychopath, it usually shows about by the time you`re 5, 6, 7 years old. It`s quite frightening. And from that point on you can`t do much about it because they`ve already learned to manipulate everybody. They already have gotten people into a category -- you`re either useful or you`re in the way, you`re just an object.
They could care less about anybody else at all. So everything that they do has to do with making themselves feel good and having an amusing time, whatever they think is necessary.
So, yes, I think the prosecution should be batting home this thing. This woman is a psychopath. That`s why she could cold-bloodedly chloroform her daughter, put tape around her face, and watch her die, then package her up, put a little heart on her face, ha-ha, throw her out there in the animal burial ground, and then go out and Party, because she was finished with Caylee.
She was no longer useful to her. She was getting in her way.
That`s a psychopath. And then she would lie about everything, because no matter how much you cajole her or encourage her to tell the truth, she doesn`t want to do it because she doesn`t care about anybody else but Casey. And they should be pushing that home.
PINSKY: Well, I`m surprised that they`re not really showing evidence of things like harming animals or being, you know, aggressive toward her peers. But let me just ask another question though.
BROWN: Well, that`s kind of overdone in mythology. Serial killers, quite a few of them, have actually killed animals or set fires and that kind of thing, bedwetting. That`s a little trio of things they talk about. That`s because when you`re little, the only places you can get some kind of power is in your home, in the bed, as a child, and then, you know, you can`t go out and kill people yet, so you grab the neighborhood animals, and you can burn down your neighbor`s shed. It`s really easy.
So that`s where you get your power and control. And then you go out to people. She`s not a serial killer, at this point at least. She just manipulates people and gets rid of people that in her way. So it`s kind of a different thing.
PINSKY: All right. Let`s do a little more profiling on people that lie.
Are there any other sort of theoretical possibilities here other than psychopathy, from your standpoint?
BROWN: Not with Casey Anthony.
Now, we`ve seen that from the other Anthonys. I think the other Anthonys haven`t told the truth. They`ve obstructed the investigation. And that can be caused by -- that can be a defense, it can be fear, it can be a narcissistic personality disorder.
In other words, all of us will lie under a circumstance or under a few circumstances either to protect someone or protect ourselves. But when you get to Casey`s level, that`s just psychopathic lying.
She actually enjoys lying because she likes to watch everybody squirm and not be able to figure out what to do with her. And it`s fun for her. So that`s one reason she does it, because she can get away with it.
Ryan, I see you trying to jump in. Go ahead.
SMITH: Yes, because, Dr. Drew, when we see Casey in court, we get kind of a conflicted picture. On these tapes, she is saying, I want to find Caylee. I`ll do anything I can to find Caylee. Let me help you find Caylee.
But what I found really stunning was the way she describes Zanny the nanny. Now, at this point we know that Zanny never existed. But she describes her parents, her eye color, even the fact that her sister goes to college in Florida and what she`s studying.
She has such a level of detail when she talks about this fictional Zanny the nanny, that it`s just stunning. You almost believe her as she`s saying it. And she just keeps adjusting the details as she goes forward. It`s really unbelievable to see.
PINSKY: It is. And like I`ve said, I`ve been in a room with patients like that where you start doubting yourself. You start going, well, wait a minute -- the conviction with which they lie makes you start to believe it yourself. And you start thinking they do believe it.
And I`ve got to say, I`ve seen patients with certain kind of brain disorders and certain kind of personality disorders do that kind of lying who aren`t murderers.
So, they still have to make the case, do they not, Mark, that this is a -- connect her to the actual death of the child?
EIGLARSH: Absolutely. That`s the greatest challenge for them, is to prove that it was first-degree murder.
I disagree with what you and Pat were talking about earlier, that maybe the prosecution should bring in that she`s a sociopath, a psychopath, suffers from lyingitis (ph), whatever it is. They have a tough enough burden as it is. To start getting into what`s in her mind, the abstract, motive, that`s too much. They don`t have to take on that burden, and they shouldn`t.
PINSKY: All right.
Ryan, where is this going today? How is this day going to end up for us?
SMITH: Well, today, so far, I mean, what you`re seeing are the jailhouse tapes. They may continue with that tomorrow.
But the key for the prosecution is to continue to show the lies. They`re going to keep going to the timeline, but they want to show the jury is that every stage, Casey Anthony was saying she wanted to find Caylee, but, really, at every stage there was always a lie, always something that didn`t make sense. And that`s the way they`re going to use their circumstantial evidence in here.
Because if you think Casey is lying, the jury will say to themselves, well, she`s saying it was an accident. But where do the lies end and where does the truth begin in this case?
PINSKY: Well, that`s the constant. For me, that`s what`s becoming so fascinating. That`s why I can`t stop reading the interrogation transcripts.
Thank you to my panel.
Thank you, Mark.
Thank you, Pat.
Thank you, Ryan.
Coming up, we`re going to take some of your questions and comments on the case. And I want you all to remember that, ultimately, this is about finding justice for an innocent little girl. I want you to listen to her singing "You Are My Sunshine." This is the person that really suffered the most here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAYLEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S DAUGHTER (singing): -- how much I love you. Please don`t take my sunshine away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY: She told me that she had not seen Caylee in 31 days, that she had been kidnapped, and that the nanny took her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: That`s another moment we just saw there from Lee Anthony`s testimony in the Casey Anthony murder trial.
In the meantime, we are receiving thousands and thousands of your comments through e-mail, Facebook and Twitter. Of course, there`s phone. So let`s take some calls up first.
Here`s Dawn in Florida.
What`s on your mind?
DAWN, FLORIDA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Dawn.
DAWN: I`m the mom of a 19-year-old daughter whom I raised by myself. And at 19 years old, if she was missing an hour later than she told me she would be, I would be out of my mind. Any mother who doesn`t report their child missing immediately is simply guilty in my opinion.
PINSKY: Well, reasonable.
Vickie, what`s up, Florida?
VICKIE, FLORIDA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Vickie.
VICKIE: I guess if there`s any truth about Casey`s claim of incest -- but I haven`t heard anyone talk about the fact that when a person has been sexually abused, they often turn out to be very promiscuous. I think she was looking for the love that she wasn`t getting at home.
PINSKY: Well, when someone has been sexually abused, they either become averse to sexuality, or they can develop sexual addictions. Particularly young females will develop sexual addictions and promiscuity and stuff.
So, yes, connecting those dots, I haven`t seen that either in this case.
Clay in Georgia, what`s your thoughts?
CLAY, GEORGIA: Hi, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Clay.
CLAY: When Casey talks about taking care of Caylee, she`s making reference to sedating her with benzodiazepines, particularly Xanax. And you may have speculated about this. It`s "Xanny" the nanny with an "X."
I`ve counseled adolescents, mostly those with substance -- and this would be the kind of slang reference they might make.
PINSKY: I completely agree with you. I brought this up last night. I was wondering if I was the only one sort of that heard that, that, yes, Xanny, Xanabars (ph), Xanax.
Now, it`s kind of weird that she would pick up "Zanny the nanny." I don`t know if that`s what she was referring to, or just a name that she had been exposed to in high school or something, because there`s some evidence that she knew some people with this name earlier in her life.
But it certainly is more lies. Again, what do we know about this case? Lies, lies, lies.
Here`s a Facebook question from Liz. "If you were sexually abused by someone, you are not going to leave your child alone with that person. Your thoughts concerning the Anthony trial?"
Well, the unfortunate and really the crazy reality is sometimes abuse victims do leave kids with the perpetrator, or they even bring perpetrators into their lives. It`s a very common thing that people that have been a victim recreate these patterns for their children. So that`s not necessarily something for us to hang our hat on.
Candy writes, "I can`t see Casey ever admitting anything to anyone. Are there just some people who aren`t capable of telling the truth?"
And boy, that`s sort of the theme of the night, isn`t it, that the lies here are just stunning? For me, the lies, themselves, are captivating.
You wonder just, how can you -- how can this be? How can your reality be so different than what the rest of us know to be true?
And I have dealt with patients like that. And there are some -- and I`ve convinced myself that they really believe -- at least the patients I`ve dealt with, I`m not saying necessarily Casey -- that they start really believing their lies. That is their sense of reality.
Coming up, what are the Anthonys really going through? What`s it like facing the fact that someone you love could be responsible for killing your child? Andrea Yates` husband is here to discuss just that.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911, what`s your emergency?
CINDY ANTHONY: I called a little bit ago, the deputy sheriff. I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing. Can you get someone here now?
OPERATOR: OK. What is the address that you`re calling from?
CINDY ANTHONY: We`re talking about a 3-year-old little girl. My daughter finally admitted that the babysitter stole her. I need to find her.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (voice-over): Drama --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I got number one.
PINSKY: The mystery. The tragedy. We are talking to the most avid observer, the first man in line on the first day of trial.
But first up, Rusty and Andrea Yates had a big, beautiful family fit for a Norman Rockwell painting. Andrea was gripped by debilitating postpartum depression, but no one could have guessed how tragically it would end. Andrea drowned all five of their children in the bathtub of their suburban home. Rusty`s anguish, grief, and confusion played out in the public eye. He knows the pain of parents suffering in the spotlight.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The new theory that Caylee might be dead, it might be an accident?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shut up, shut up, shut up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY (on-camera): Boy, this is a grandfather`s hell. Sadly, my next guest can relate to George Anthony`s grief. Rusty Yates is joining us now. Also back is criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh and Pat Brown, she is a criminal profiler. All right, Rusty, I want to go to you. Watching this unfold. You`ve been in those seats. What is this family going through?
RUSTY YATES, WIFE, ANDREA, DROWNED THEIR FIVE CHILDREN IN 2001: It`s terrible. I mean, you know, I think their life would probably be normal. They`d be, you know, leading an anonymous life, and then, you know, suddenly, you know, maybe there were a few little warning signs, but certainly nothing that would add up to the, you know, loss of their grandchild. And then, you know, suddenly, there`s all the media, the legal battles, the loss of their child. There`s so much to deal with at one time. it`s --
PINSKY: Is it --
YATES: Nothing I`d wish for anyone.
PINSKY: Is it really truly that much worse it being such a public event?
YATES: I`m sorry. I didn`t understand your question.
PINSKY: Well, the question is, you know, the fact that we`re all watching this and it is such a public event. I mean, it`s already shattering. It`s hard to imagine.
YATES: I see what you`re saying. Does it make it --
PINSKY: That much worse?
YATES: Does it make it that much worse? Yes. Yes. Yes, it does, because, you know, you know, we tend to live in anonymity, you know, we have friends that know us, you know, folks in the neighborhood, you know, and then all of a sudden, especially with national coverage like that, it`s, you know --
PINSKY: Just overwhelming. It must just be overwhelming. There`s been a lot of heart wrenching emotion in the courtroom as we all know, including Cindy Anthony`s breakdown on the stand earlier this week. Watch this, and I want to hear your thoughts on it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CAYLEE ANTHONY`S GRANDMOTHER: I called a little bit ago, the deputy sheriffs. I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing. My daughter finally admitted that the baby-sitter stole her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Rusty, your own mother, the grandmother of your children, had to go through something like this. What`s it like for you and what do you think is going on with Cindy Anthony crying in the courtroom? What is your sense of what she`s going through given what your own mom went through?
YATES: It reminded me a lot of what my mom went through, and you know, it`s just terrible. So much to deal with it once. You know, you lose your -- she lost her grandchild, I`m sure who was very precious to her. And then, she`s got her daughter, you know, on trial who`s also precious to her. And then, you know, she has the loss of privacy. She`s got, you know -- there`s a feeling of helplessness because the whole courtroom scene is -- it`s like a show that you just don`t understand.
You know, the judges and the attorneys and the witnesses, they handle everything. And you really have limited input and control, and it`s also slow and that makes it worse, but it`s like a slow, torturous process. And I really feel for the family, and, you know, we don`t know what all the facts were, who`s to blame, who`s not here, but, certainly, a good number of the families not to blame. This is just awful. I mean, I really --
PINSKY: Rusty, let me ask you something because only you can answer this. What is it like going home every night from the courtroom? I mean, what do you the Anthonys say to each other? You know, what did you do when you went home? Who did you talk to? What was it like walking, I guess, back into an empty house that went from a family of seven to one? What`s it like? Take us through that.
YATES: It`s terrible. I mean, the whole -- every day`s like that. You know, you leave the courtroom and you`re surrounded by cameras. And all the while they`re, like, bumping into my mom, you know, or one of the cameramen might backwards and trip accidentally, but you can`t laugh, because that`s what would end up on the TV that night. And like you said, you come home and it`s very sad, especially immediately after the loss.
You know, I don`t know that it would change much during the trial, but especially immediately after the loss, you know, you come home and our house is very busy, very loud, and I turned -- I had to turn the TV on. You know, I had it on 24/7 because I needed some noise in the background.
And I just encourage them to, you know, cope however best they can. I mean, if it -- I had to take pictures down. It was too much for me. I had pictures of our family lining the hall. I had to take them down because it was too much.
PINSKY: All right. Let me take people through a little bit the differences amongst the different kinds of mothers that murder. Now, in Andrea`s case, she was what we call a psychotic depressive, right? She had postpartum depression with psychosis. Is that correct, Rusty?
YATES: Yes.
PINSKY: OK. So, we`ve been tossing around a term earlier called psychopath. Pat Brown, you brought that term up. Psychopaths are really the monsters in our society. They tend to be monsters. Their violence is planned and premeditated, and it`s emotionalist and they have no remorse. That is in someone would people make distinction between that and sociopaths. These, in my opinion, tend to be -- that`s psychopaths, but now, we`re going to go to sociopaths.
They tend to be somewhat more insidious because they are superficially -- if you would change that to sociopath -- there we are. Superficially, they tend to be more charming. They have controlled behavior, and the shallowness and disconnection of their emotion can be missed by people and, again, they manipulate and they use people as objects.
Now, in Andrea`s case, she had what`s called a psychotic depression where they`re in a delusional state. They become so severely depressed that they really disconnect from reality, and they will often kill their children not realizing they`ve done it, often killing the most loved child first. Often, they`ll walk into the street or call the cops, tell them they`ve done it. And if I remember right, Rusty, in your case, Andrea didn`t realize that the children were gone for quite some time. Is that correct?
YATES: Well, I don`t think that`s entirely correct. I mean, did she appreciate it for a while? No. She didn`t, because she stayed in a psychotic state for some time after she was arrested. Slowly came back to reality and has had to deal with that ever since, but she remembers it, and, you know, which is sad. I mean, it`s very hard for her to deal with.
I`ve never heard that about killing their most loved first, but she did have a -- I think she may have taken Noah`s life first, and she had a really special connection with him. So --
PINSKY: Yes. That is that pattern. All right. Pat, I want to turn to you and ask, does Casey fall somewhere in the spectrum I was just referring to you? You said psychopath. Did you mean psychopath or sociopath or do you see a distinction there?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: I don`t see a distinction. I think that`s kind of just lots of fancy terminology. I think when people talk about sociopaths, they`re simply talking about maybe people have had a better education or have grown up in a family that`s taught of some better communication skills. They`re more financially stable, perhaps, they can actually stay in a relationship. I don`t think there`s a difference.
I just think it`s just like any of us. We could be lower class, higher class, more or less educated, but our personality is the same. Psychopath, sociopath, it`s the same exact thing. You just have no feeling for other human beings, and everything is just about what you want, and you`re willing to do anything to get it as long as you think you can come out ahead.
PINSKY: OK, Pat, thank you. And Rusty, again, I want to make a distinction between what Pat and I are talking about here, which is, again, degrees of psychopathy or sociopathy versus what Andrea had which was an acute severe psychiatric condition which is more often what we hear about in women that kill their mother, but this one has captivated us. Thank you, Rusty.
Coming up, jailhouse videos show a vain and selfish Casey on tape behind bars pouting and yawning. How will the jurors react to the callous behavior? We`re going to talk to a jury selection expert who worked on the O.J. Simpson trial after this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Can someone let me -- come on.
CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down.
CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s letting me speak. You want me to talk, then give me three seconds to say something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: Do you remember the last time that she may have had her there or had her to where they could have seen her?
CASEY ANTHONY: Wow, um --
LEE ANTHONY: Prior to her -- prior to the day she went missing?
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes. Um, Jesus. Maybe around mom`s birthday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Tonight, the jury watches these jailhouse video of people visiting Casey Anthony behind bars. Now, my question is, how will the jury react when they see Casey acting sometimes like a spoiled brat while her daughter is still going missing? Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: Hey, gorgeous, how you doing?
CASEY ANTHONY: I look like hell.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Well, you know something? You really need to keep your spirit high for all this.
CASEY ANTHONY: I have. I haven`t been crying while I`ve been in here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Her baby`s missing, and she`s worried about how she looks. We have a jury selection expert with us. Jo-Ellan Dimitrius, she has worked on high profile cases like the O.J. Simpson murder trial. And still with us is criminal defense attorney, Mark Eiglarsh.
Jo-Ellan, how is the jury going to react to all this? You know, that video of her sort of being bratty but also lies, lies, lies, lies, lies. Isn`t that going to affect them?
JO-ELLAN DIMITRIUS, JURY SELCTION EXPERT: Oh, of course it is, because, you know, jurors don`t leave their common sense at the front door when they walk in. And all -- any criminal case is all about how the defendant reacts. They`ve now seen videos. They`ve seen her lie. They`ve seen just an amazing amalgam of emotions that are displayed by her.
The fact that she lied all the way through the jailhouse interview, the fact that they`ve seen all of these various emotions from her, I think, at this point, they`re very clear that there is definitely some sort of sociopathic behavior going on.
PINSKY: Right. Something here. And so, she`s already suspect in their minds. You know anything about the makeup of the jury? Has that been released? Is there any way we can --
DIMITRIUS: Yes, there has been evidence, not evidence, there have been information released about the jurors, and we really have quite an eclectic group in terms of ages and backgrounds.
PINSKY: Do you think they`re going to be able to use their common sense to really find their way through this trial?
DIMITRIUS: Oh, absolutely.
PINSKY: OK.
DIMITRIUS: Absolutely.
PINSKY: All right.
DIMITRIUS: There`s no doubt in my mind.
PINSKY: OK. Here -- I want to show you some of the footage of Casey being interrogated by the lead detective. Listen to this -- he said -- I think he`s going to say this in this tape. He said he could tell just by looking at her that she was lying and that she knew where the child was. His instinct, his experience led him to that conclusion. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE OF DET. YURI MELICH, CASEY ANTHONY INTERROGATION: And I can tell you for certainty that, right now, looking at you, I know that everything you`ve told me is a lie, including the fact that, you know, your child was last seen about a month ago and that you don`t know where she is. I`m very confident just by having talked to you the short period of time that you know where she is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Is that something the jury is likely to respond to, that cops have their experience just kind of tells them something?
DIMITRIUS: Oh, of course. They welcome experience that they have from doing their investigations and talking to defendants over the years. Certainly, that is something that they`re going to be keying off of.
PINSKY: The jurors will?
DIMITRIUS: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Is it usually the case? And I`m going to ask Mark to respond to this in a second. I`m sure he`ll have something to say, but is it often the case that cops kind of do know what the answers are to the questions they`re asking?
DIMITRIUS: I think that that is true, because I think that they have a, you know, some sort of evidence behind them before they actually do begin to talk to the suspect. Then, again, we all know that there are officers out there that, perhaps, I think to use a term I`ve heard before, test a lie.
PINSKY: Oh, interesting. Well, Mark, would you dismantle all this as a test a lie? I imagine you`d have a field day with some of this. So, what is -- from the defense perspective, when a cop says, it`s just my feeling, it`s just my experience, what do you do with that?
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that doesn`t mean anything. That`s not evidence of anything, but you`ve got 12 -- it isn`t. I mean, that doesn`t prove anything, but worse, you`ve got 12 people, and they all have the requisite pulses and hearts, and they can look over, and they can see the abhorrent behavior. That`s going to absolutely hurt her both in terms of if she ever chooses to testify, which is the only way they`re going to get all this defense theory in.
Or number two, if the defense is going to try to sell her as some compassionate individual who`s been victimized and that`s why she did all this, they`re not buying it at this point. And how do I know that? Because they`re alive.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: And Mark, you see particularly disturbed that she lied about her lies. That really got through to you somehow. When she was just lying, it was OK, but when she couldn`t keep it straight, lied about her lying, that`s where you drew the line.
EIGLARSH: Yes, that`s correct.
PINSKY: OK. So, Jo-Ellan, you know, you must have seen cases like this over the years. Yes?
DIMITRIUS: Yes, of course, a lot of them.
PINSKY: So, you help me make -- I`m really, you know, as a clinician, I see people that lie all the time, and they have certain personality disorders and they have drug addictions and things, but this is really even stunning to me. I`m fascinated. To me, I`m trying to understand why we`re all so attach to this case, but one of the things that has captured me is the -- I just like -- the lies. It`s hard to -- you can`t stop reading about it, watching it. It`s just stunning.
DIMITRIUS: Well, it is, and it`s the lies. It`s not just the person`s demeanor and how she`s reacting with her different emotions, but it`s the content of what they say. When you look at a serial liar, generally, they get caught up if they`re not that good, which obviously she`s not good at all. They get caught up in what it is that`s being said, and I think that`s one of --
PINSKY: They get caught up emotionally in it?
DIMITRIUS: No.
PINSKY: They get caught up in their lies.
DIMITRIUS: They get caught up in their lies. They don`t remember what they said --
PINSKY: She seems actually connected to her lies. Like, she`s believing them and emotionally connected to them. Like, oh, my poor girl, I haven`t seen her in so long. Mark, I think that would really -- how would you use that? How do we make sense of that?
EIGLARSH: Well, it would just show -- look, don`t kill the messenger, but if I`m the defense lawyer, I continue on this theory that look what she`s done here. Only someone who`s been abused, only someone who`s come from a traumatic childhood and a broken home would ever go through the lengths that she went through. That`s evidence there. And thus, dot, dot, dot, good luck with that one, Jose.
(LAUGHTER)
PINSKY: I know. I know. Because I`m saying, and Jo-Ellan, you`re shaking your head when Mark says that is that, you know, somebody that is severely destroyed characterologically and doesn`t have any appreciation of other people`s feeling states at all usually has chronic severe abuse across their early childhood. They`re not suggesting that even.
DIMITRIUS: They`re not suggesting it at all. And I think, you know, I guess somewhat kudos to Baez for coming up with this theory because he doesn`t have much else to work with. You know, I look back at, you know, I look at it from a logical progression of the skeletal remains of Caylee are found with a tape over her mouth. Well, if somebody accidentally drowns, you don`t put tape over their mouth.
PINSKY: I`m going to disagree with you. If you`re a law enforcement officer, you know that contents of the mouth, the fluid continues to come out for hours and hours afterwards and if you don`t want to make a DNA trail, you put tape over their mouth, but Casey wouldn`t know that. But the dad might have known that. So, now, I think, oh my God, is he lying, too?
DIMITRIUS: OK. But how did Caylee get into the pool if grandma took the ladder away?
PINSKY: Yes, listen, I don`t know. This is the -- this is why -- this is what compels me to keep looking at this story and takes me to the next day to want to see what goes on in the courtroom because --
DIMITRIUS: Well, you know, I have a theory about why we`re also fascinated --
PINSKY: Tell me.
DIMITRIUS: And that`s because of our economy and the things that have happened in our country over the last two years, people have been in various financial straits. And acting isn`t so good these days. I think, personally, on soap operas. This is a live soap opera. This is a way to get away from your troubles.
PINSKY: I absolutely agree with you. Thank you, Jo-Ellan and Mark. I`m not going to give you any last word here. I`ve got to go out to break, but thank you for joining us.
EIGLARSH: Fair enough.
PINSKY: OK. Yesterday -- I agree, it`s a soap opera. And watch this. Yesterday, I showed you a mob rushing the Orlando courthouse for a front-row trial seat. Today, there it is. The people, that inspired passion of people. Today, I`m talking to the very first man in line on day one. He tells me about the drama, the atmosphere, and most importantly, what it`s like to be up inside the courtroom during those intense moments of this soap opera we`re all seemed to be glued to.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You loved your granddaughter more than anything in the world?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you would have done anything to help find her?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you love your daughter more than anything in the world.
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you would do anything to protect her?
GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is your baby?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HOST OF "JOY BEHAR SHOW": Check out my show tonight, Drew. We`ll be talking about the Casey Anthony trial with judge Alex Ferer, host of the "Judge Alex Show". You know, we`ll ask him if he thinks Casey Anthony should take the stand and what the consequences might be if she doesn`t.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, here we are at 4:00 a.m., the big day in the Casey Anthony trial. And guess who`s number one standing in line at 4:00 a.m.? Me. See you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Spectators waiting in line all night. Welcome back. We are covering the Casey Anthony trial for you tonight. That video was given to us from, perhaps, the most dedicated Anthony trial spectator. His name is Brett Schulman. He joins us right now. He was the first person in line to get a seat inside the courtroom on day one. He braved this. Chaos, fights, running of the bulls.
I swear to goodness. That`s what it is. Look at that. Those people are animals. They`re all trying to get a firsthand look at the Casey Anthony trial. Let`s get started with Brett. So, Brett, what was it like inside the courtroom? What`s different about being there?
BRETT SCHULMAN, SNAGGED FIRST ANTHONY TRIAL SPECTATOR SEAT: Emotions of individuals that you can actually stare into their eyes. And an incredible impact on the individuals sitting and actually watching instead of watching on TV. You could feel the power and the passion inside the courtroom.
PINSKY: Interesting. Well, you, yourself, you`re a professional poker player. So, I love that you`re the subject I`m talking to here, because you have a sort of unique, I suspect, ability to read what`s going on in the people involved in this trial. What is your take on Casey Anthony? You see her sitting there day after day. What`s going on there?
SCHULMAN: First of all, I would not want to play poker against Casey Anthony because she is stone cold.
PINSKY: Interesting. Interesting. So, you feel -- you feel -- is that -- could it be that that`s something the attorneys are sort of encouraging her to look like? Just to retain that stone face? Or do you think that she is just disconnect and a cold-hearted criminal?
SCHULMAN: In my own opinion, I believe that she is cold-hearted, and all she does is stare all day long straight ahead. She doesn`t look at anybody. Once in a while, she`ll look down at a piece of paper and that is it.
PINSKY: Do you have any sense of how the jurors are responding to her?
SCHULMAN: Well, I watch the jury, too, and I watch them look at her. And I will just make one observation. A lot of the jurors do not take notes. Very rarely do I see them take notes, but they`re always watching her, and they`re watching George Anthony -- and Cindy.
PINSKY: Interesting. They`re going with their gut, I bet. And then, one other thing, you had reported earlier that it`s 10-1 in the spectator booth, women to men. Mostly women. Why are women so captivated by this?
SCHULMAN: Well, I`m going to say because it`s a mother/daughter issue. I say 95 percent of everybody that`s attending every single day is a female. And the men are probably attached with the female, but that`s OK.
PINSKY: Well, interesting. Brett, thank you so much for your insight. It gives us a feeling of what it`s like inside that courtroom, because I tell you what, I`m still trying to make sense of this thing. As I keep saying, the only thing I really know for sure, so far, is there`s just stunning amounts of lying and (INAUDIBLE) going on here. And in my world, that usually means addict, but I see no evidence that she`s an addict. So, what is this thing we`re watching?
So, we`re going to continue to address this trial and give our unique take each and every day. Certainly, tomorrow we`ll be here. So, you be with us then, but until then, be safe.
END
