Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Anthony Jury Hears Interrogation and Jailhouse Tapes

Aired June 02, 2011 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of 2-year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct- taping, placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.

The murder trial of tot mom Casey Anthony under way. Tot mom`s lawyer tells a stunned courtroom she has nothing to do with Caylee`s death, but her own father, ex-cop George Anthony, shows up with Caylee`s dead body, and instead of calling 911, George hides the body, leaving it to rot.

Tot mom also claims father George and brother Lee both sexually molest her. And her lover reveals when Caylee goes missing, tot mom spends the whole day laid up in bed with him.

Bombshell tonight. After the defense fights tooth and nail to keep it out, hours of tot mom`s jailhouse videos played before the jury, hours of tot mom`s intricate lies to cover 2-year-old Caylee`s murder played out loud, tot mom storming out on her parents when they tell her cops are suspicious of her, tot mom crying only when she sees herself cry in the video, tot mom leading cops on a wild goose chase in a phony effort to find Caylee.

And later, we hear tot mom stunned at a quarter million dollar reward fund to find Caylee, suggesting that money could pay her bail, tot mom taunting her parents and police, claiming Caylee actually called her on the phone. A stunned jury hears tot mom`s details about the imaginary nanny/kidnapper -- the nanny`s height, weight, her hair, her tattoos, even where the nanny went to school and what she looked like in a swimsuit.

But in the end, cops never getting the truth, and they give up -- they give up -- give up on getting the truth from tot mom, branding her a cold- blooded, callous monster. But does the jury agree?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: (INAUDIBLE) every day stronger and stronger that we`re going to see Caylee. I know she`s coming home. I can feel it. My concern is Caylee. That`s all I want.

No one has once said anything for me. It`s always that I love my daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you told us is a lie.

CASEY ANTHONY: Once we get Caylee, everything else will figure itself out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cold, callous, and a monster who doesn`t care.

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s going to need all the love to be strong. You need to take care of yourself. I was just telling Dad, like I told Lee, you need to eat. You need to sleep. You need to take care of yourself.

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: (INAUDIBLE) Casey. She`s not going to hurt Caylee, is she, honey?

CASEY ANTHONY: I told you in my gut, I know she`s still OK. I can feel it, Mom. I know she`s still OK.

All I want is to see her again, to hear her laugh, to see her smile and just be with our family.

Nothing else matters to me at this point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. After the defense fights tooth and nail to keep it out, hours of tot mom`s jailhouse videos played for the jury, hours of tot mom`s intricate lies to cover up 2-year-old Caylee`s murder played out loud.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: We`re going to get our little girl back. She`s going to be just as she was.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you told me is a lie, correct?

CASEY ANTHONY: Not everything that I told you.

I would lie, I would steal, I would do whatever by any means to get her back. That`s exactly how I feel. It`s the truth.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY`S FATHER: You are a great mom. You`re always going to be a great mom. I know that. Mom knows that and Lee knows that. Your good, closest best friends know that.

CASEY ANTHONY: No, I don`t have an office there. I purposely misled you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, so you purposely misled us.

CASEY ANTHONY: Other outside forces again, they`re going to feel dumb when all of this comes back and Caylee`s home.

GEORGE ANTHONY: Yes, and when you`re home. I mean, all of our lives are not going to be what we`re used to. We`re going to do it together, all of us.

CINDY ANTHONY: We`re going to see her little face again.

CASEY ANTHONY: I pray to God every day that we do.

That Mommy loves her very much and she`s the most important thing in this entire world to me!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are the second person, this cold-blooded, callous monster.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are live here at the Orlando courthouse, bringing you the very latest in the trial of Casey Anthony, tot mom, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee. And what a day it has been in the courthouse right behind me! After the defense fights tooth and nail to keep out tot mom`s statements so the jury will never hear all the lies, the intricate web of lies -- but they did hear it. In fact, they put down their pens and their notebooks and just sat there looking at the video, listening to the audio, and looking over at tot mom, who sat stone- faced the entire time.

In fact, out to Jean Casarez, legal correspondent, "In Session." She`s been in court the entire day. Jean, what was really stunning -- I mean, this intricate web of lies. You know, typically, when I was a prosecutor and you weigh the credibility of a witness or a defendant`s statement, you look for detail because the more detail usually means it really happened.

Man, are her statements chock full of detail, especially about Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez, the nanny/baby-sitter/kidnapper/scapegoat. She describes how Zanny has curly hair but that she straightens it. In fact, she gives her her hair straightener. She describes her height, her weight, tattoos, the color of her hair, even what she looks like in a swimsuit and where she went to college. Jean, she doesn`t exist!

JEAN CASAREZ, "IN SESSION": Nancy, she even said, Here`s the extension of my office at Universal. She said to investigators, I work at Universal. So they said, OK. She said, I`ll take you there. So she went to Universal with them, and they walked a long way. She finally said, You know what? I don`t work here.

So they went into a small room for an interview. The lead detective, Yuri Melich, said, You know what? Things can happen. People can have accidents. People can even have problems maybe with a swimming pool. She didn`t say anything. And so then Yuri Melich said, You know, you know what you`re telling me? That you`re a cold-blooded, callous monster!

GRACE: You know, Jean, when you`re talking about all of what the jury heard today, we really can`t do it justice. Take a listen to what the jury heard.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Remember when we had those two people that we were talking about, the person who had an accident or made an accident or maybe a bad decision, and a person who`s just a cold-blooded, callous monster? That`s telling me that you`re the second person, this cold-blooded, callous monster...

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... who doesn`t care and doesn`t want to help because she`s afraid that something so heinous happened that everyone`s going to look at her and say, She`s a monster, she deserves to go away, she deserves never to see the light of day. This bad thing should happen to her.

I don`t want to believe that right now, but you`re giving me no choice. You understand? You`re giving me no choice. This is going to be the opportunity that you have right now -- no matter how heinous you think that what happened was to Caylee, this is your opportunity to tell us. This is going to be your only opportunity to tell us because what`s going to happen, we`re going to find out. There`s not going to be a question we`re going to find out, OK?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Also joining us here live at the Orange County, Orlando, courthouse Robyn Walensky, WDBO, also in court. Robyn, he kept giving her one out after the next, saying, Is this really what you want your statement to be? This doesn`t make sense. Why did you drag us to Universal? Why did you do this?

In fact, the story, Robyn, of getting them to Universal, going through security, getting out of the car, going in, walking down the hall to where she`s about to turn into an office, and finally goes, OK, I don`t work here -- what a story!

ROBYN WALENSKY, WDBO: Nancy, she is a total fake and a total fraud. And she was lying through her teeth. It was a total charade. She took three detectives on this tour from the back entrance of Universal. It was bogus. Finally, after this total wild-goose chase, she finally admits to the detectives, she puts both hands in her back pockets and she says, You know what? This is not true. I never really worked here.

Then they get her in a room for 30 to 40 minutes, and that`s where that debrief with the -- the statement -- they tried -- with the "cold, callous monster" -- they tried everything, Nancy. They used every technique in the book to get her to admit where was Caylee.

GRACE: You know, it`s really interesting, it`s really incredible, Robyn Walensky. It was almost like out of a movie, where she keeps spinning this yarn. She goes, Sure, I`ll take you there. They get in the car. They drive to Universal. She gives the security guard her extension and says, OK, well, that doesn`t work. She gives a couple other numbers. They finally get in. Of course, the security guards are in on it. They know what`s happening. They go all the way down the hall to the moment of truth. I`m surprised she didn`t sit down in a cubicle and start typing on the computer and go, yes, this is my cubie.

WALENSKY: It`s unbelievable. She gave them a bogus telephone number, a bogus extension, told them she worked in a bogus building. And Nancy, she gave them the name of her bogus boss, Thomas Manley. They looked the guy up. He doesn`t exist, either.

GRACE: So Robyn Walensky, what was the jury doing during all of this? And I notice that tot mom only cries when she sees herself crying. When they`re talking about Caylee, it`s like nothing`s happen. But when she cries in those videos talking to her mother and father behind bars, then she tears up. But that`s the only time she gets upset, is when she sees herself in distress.

WALENSKY: Nancy, it is all about her. This morning, I was sitting in the front row. The jurors were listening so closely to Detective Melich. He also -- when he answers the questions, he also looks directly at them. But the jurors were so focused this morning. And she just sat there, Casey, like she was frozen, Nancy.

GRACE: We are live at the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: Do you want to talk to law enforcement?

CASEY ANTHONY: Yes and no. Things that I`ve told them before, they`ve looked at me like I`m feeding them a bunch of bull (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you lie about it. You bury it and you lie about it and you bury it...

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t care. I will lie...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there anything about this story that you`re telling that is untrue...

CASEY ANTHONY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... or is there anything that you want to change or divert from what you`ve already told me?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you cause any injury to your child, Caylee?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you`re telling me Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn`t returned her?

CASEY ANTHONY: She`s the last person that I`ve seen with my daughter, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re going to cause everybody else around you to suffer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Caylee is missing.

GEORGE ANTHONY: I wouldn`t wish this on anyone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And at some point, this is going to come out. It always does.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We found a human skull.

911 OPERATOR: Oh, my gosh!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You lie about it and you bury it and it just never, ever, ever, ever, ever goes away.

CASEY ANTHONY: I`m just putting it right flat out for you.

I will lie, and I mean that with all of my heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are here live, camped out in front of the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee.

And what a day it was in the courthouse right behind me! Let me tell you this. The jury sat transfixed as hours of video and audiotape was played for them, hours of tot mom`s secret conversations behind bars with her parents, with others, and the police interview by Yuri Melich, branded by many as a wrong-doer.

That turns out not to be true, Melich holding up on the stand even under cross-examination by tot mom`s defense team, led by Jose Baez.

Back out to Jean Casarez. Jean, tell me, when tot mom`s sitting there listening to all of these lies, what is she doing?

CASAREZ: You know, Nancy, I see an expression on her face that I`ve never seen before since this trial began, since her parents took the stand. It`s not one of fear, like jury selection. It is not one of excitement and happiness, as during all the hearings. It`s a very different look, one that`s sort of scary.

GRACE: OK, what do you mean by that? What do you mean it`s sort of scary?

CASAREZ: I mean scary in the sense that she could be capable of doing things. It`s a look I`ve never seen before. It`s a look I`ve seen with other defendants that are convicted, but I`ve never seen it with her.

GRACE: OK, Jean, this is extremely unusual because today for the first time, as I was watching her, looking at her face, so cold, so resolute, I thought, yes, the jury is going to think maybe, maybe she could do it by just looking at her. She`s listening to all this come in.

Out to you, Dr. Bethany Marshall...

CASAREZ: That`s the same thing as me!

GRACE: ... joining us out of LA. Exactly, Jean, the exact same thing.

CASAREZ: Wow!

GRACE: I have not seen -- I have not seen that expression -- I`ve seen her look cold. I`ve seen her shaking her head, No, no, no to everything her mother, her father and her brother said. I saw her doing it at the beginning with Yuri Melich. But as she`s watching herself, it`s a completely different expression, Dr. Bethany Marshall. It`s extremely cold and detached. Detached -- that`s the word.

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, one of the things we know about sociopaths is that they have such low levels of anxiety about getting into trouble that they do very horrible things without thinking about the consequences.

When she`s watching these jailhouse interviews, she`s having to confront the consequences of her actions for the first time. And I think that`s why we see the serious look on her face. It`s as if there`s a dawning of consciousness. Oh, my God, I can`t believe that this thing is going to come back to haunt me.

And when we watch these jailhouse interviews, we see -- what we know about sociopaths is that they relate to others on the basis of power, not affection. In other words, they cannot use affectionate ties to other people to get their needs met. They can only outmaneuver, lie, manipulate, con, use words to rearrange reality. And when she sees those jailhouse interviews, she knows on some level that she is had (ph). That`s a very serious look on her face, not just cold-hearted, very serious.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CASEY ANTHONY: I`ve even said from day one, putting my crap out within the media and everything honestly that`s being said is complete garbage. The focus isn`t on Caylee, and that`s where it should be. That`s my only concern.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So you purposely misled us. This was all an attempt to help find your daughter, right? That make sense to you (INAUDIBLE)

CASEY ANTHONY: Again, in a backwards sort of way, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a backwards sort of way?

People are going to think I`m just the devil.

There`s a difference between this person who makes a mistake and say, Listen, I`m sorry I -- this is the reason that I lied to you.

CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know where she`s at. Are you kidding me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you don`t think lying to us is going to help us find her, why would you do that?

CASEY ANTHONY: Because I`m scared and I -- I know I`m running out of options.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are live here outside the Orlando, Orange County, courthouse, bringing you the latest in the trial of Casey Anthony, tot mom, on trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl, Caylee. A stunning day in court today as one tape after the next play before a transfixed jury.

Jean Casarez, did you notice the jury occasionally would just look over at tot mom, look across the room at her? She never meets their eyes.

CASAREZ: No, she doesn`t. But Nancy, here`s one thing that I`ve seen. Do you remember the juror that said she couldn`t judge? Based on religious reasons, she couldn`t judge. She`s on the jury. I watch her. She looks at Casey Anthony more than anybody.

GRACE: Out to the lines. We are taking your calls live. To Dawn in New York. Hi, Dawn. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Hi, Nancy. It`s Dawn (INAUDIBLE) I was just wondering -- she had stolen from her parents and her friends. I was wondering, what was she doing after she would leave Tony`s place? And she spent a lot of money and exceeded more than she probably had actually stolen from others.

GRACE: To Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer on the story. What about it, Ellie? What was she doing? And where was she getting the money?

ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, that`s a good question, Nancy. We don`t know what she was doing a lot of the time, but we do know that she had her friend Amy Huizinga`s checkbook a lot of the time. She was using that to write checks at Target, Winn-Dixie, buying herself clothing, sunglasses, buying Bud light for her and the guys. We also know that various friends saw her out and about all over Orlando, hanging out with different friends, shopping with different friends, seemingly having a good time.

GRACE: You know, she ping-ponged from one apartment to the next. She`d be at Lazzaro`s place, then she`d go back to her old boyfriend, Morales`s, place, then she`d go home. She went sometimes to different people`s apartments just to take a shower. Nowhere did anyone see Caylee with her, did they, Ellie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY: (INAUDIBLE) Mom.

CASEY ANTHONY: Most definitely.

LEE ANTHONY: Dad.

CASEY ANTHONY: Again, same.

LEE ANTHONY: As in most definitely.

CASEY ANTHONY: Uh-huh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Once we get that little girl home, which I hope is today, you know, that stuff with you is not going to be easy to get through, but at least we`ll have you out, also. And that`s --

CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: As long as we have Caylee home, everything else with me we`ll deal with as we can. Lee made a good point. Getting Caylee home is our priority. Everything else will fall into place after that.

CPL. YURY MELICH, ORANGE COUNTY INVESTIGATOR: I thought this was a person who`s here who`s concerned and who`s kind of afraid of what`s going to happen because of something bad that happened before.

CASEY ANTHONY: The focus isn`t on Caylee. And that`s where it should be.

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S BROTHER: Casey was an unfit mother.

MELICH: And now we give you this opportunity and you continue to lie. And you continue to lie.

CASEY ANTHONY: That was a lie. I lied. That was a lie.

MELICH: Or we can look at you as cold, callous, and a monster who doesn`t care, who is just trying to get away with something that -- something bad that happened and trying to cover it up.

L. ANTHONY: A spiteful bitch.

CASEY ANTHONY: I have no clue where she is.

MELICH: Sure you do.

CASEY ANTHONY: If I knew at any sense where she was, this wouldn`t have happened at all.

Check things locally, Lee.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A utility worker makes a gruesome discovery in Central Florida.

CASEY ANTHONY: In all honesty, places that are familiar to us, to our family.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: A bag with the skeletal remains of a child found less than a quarter-mile from Caylee Anthony`s home.

CASEY ANTHONY: I know in my heart, mom, I know in my gut she`s all right.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are live here outside the Orlando courthouse bringing you the latest in the trial today. Court has just shut down in the last few hours.

What a day in the courtroom today. Tot mom sitting stone-faced showing no emotion whatsoever as hours of secretly recorded jailhouse videos played in front of the jury.

Conversations between tot mom and her parents. When the lead detective interviews her over and over and over trying to get the truth. The phony and wild-goose chase on her search for Caylee she took cops on all around Universal, throughout -- the Orlando area trying to find Caylee.

All the while knowing by her own admission Caylee was dead.

We are taking your calls, but first, unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight is special guest the attorney for the Anthony family, Mark Lippman, joining us from here at the courthouse.

Eleanor Odom out of Washington, D.C. Senior attorney with the National District Attorneys Association. Death penalty qualified.

And Peter Odom, defense attorney, Atlanta.

Out to you, Mark Lippman. How is the family holding up during all of this testimony now that they are seeing everything for themselves really for the first time?

MARK LIPPMAN, ATTORNEY FOR ANTHONY FAMILY: Well, Nancy, it`s interesting that with the videotapes being played, a lot of the defense`s opening has pretty much been crushed when you hear the defendant say that tell mom and dad I love them or tell Lee I love him.

It`s interesting that the defense then raised the issue about mistrial because of the disparagement about him. But the real reason he probably didn`t want those videotapes in is that that really, really hurt his video. And certainly in my opinion vindicates my clients as I`ve said all along.

They really had nothing to do with any sort of molestation or certainly anything to do with the death of Caylee.

GRACE: You know -- Mark Lippman, everyone, joining us tonight and taking your calls. This is the Anthony family attorney.

I noticed even after the defense dropped that bombshell, that stink bomb in the courtroom, that George Anthony -- father George and brother Lee had both molested tot mom, they didn`t say one thing about it in their cross-examination of Lee Anthony.

Why?

LIPPMAN: Well, the cross-examination certainly didn`t -- you`re bound within the scope of the direct exam and the state didn`t raise the issue. So the defense couldn`t raise the issue afterwards. So the jury doesn`t hear any of that.

I think the state figured out or -- and certainly I can`t imagine what`s going through their mind. But if you don`t say anything about it, then the defense can`t raise it at least through Lee. They would have to raise it some other way.

And since there`s no evidence of it ever happening, the only person that could possibly raise that would be Casey herself.

GRACE: Unless the defense could re-call Lee Anthony as their own witness during the defense.

What about that, Eleanor? Is that feasible?

ELEANOR ODOM, FELONY PROSECUTOR, DEATH PENALTY QUALIFIED: Yes, that`s perfectly feasible, Nancy. They could call Lee. They have him on direct. He can give narrative answers. They can bring it up. Who knows what he`d say, but they can do this, Nancy.

GRACE: I got a pretty good idea what he would say, Peter Odom. He`d say hell no.

PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: I did not molest my sister.

P. ODOM: Of course.

GRACE: Really, Peter, can you think of any other way evidence of this alleged molestation is going to come into evidence, other than if tot mom takes the stand or could they just drop that whole line of defense and cut their losses?

P. ODOM: Nancy, here`s a prediction. Tot mom`s going to take the stand. Caylee Anthony -- Casey Anthony, pardon me, is going to take the stand. Her attorney is going to prevail upon her not to, but she`s going to do it.

She has tried to talk her way out of everything, and the only way they would ever support this claim of sexual abuse is if she takes the stand. There`s no other possible way to do it so I think she has to.

GRACE: I was thinking that she maybe forced into it, even though under our Constitution you`ve got the Fifth Amendment right to remain silent, but the devastation to the defense with her taking the stand may outweigh her wanting to purge herself in front of a jury.

P. ODOM: Precisely.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Eve -- yes. Out to Eve in Pennsylvania.

Hi, Eve. What`s your question?

STEVE, CALLER FROM PENNSYLVANIA: Hi, Nancy. It`s Steve.

GRACE: Hi, Steve. Thank you for calling in.

STEVE: Hi, how are you?

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

STEVE: I want to ask you -- just a quick comment and I wanted to get your opinion on something. Is Jose Baez and the defense want us to believe that, you know, a 20-year veteran of the police department finds his granddaughter, and that he commits a crime after the fact and then after that in an effect to cover for his daughter, to protect his daughter just so she can be charged with first-degree murder and be put to trial for her life.

And my question is -- or my opinion on this is, I believe from the beginning, from the opening statement, the defense has lost the case. And I wanted to get your opinion on that.

GRACE: OK, first of all, Steve, are you a cop?

STEVE: No, I`m not, Nancy, no.

GRACE: Because you kind of sound like a cop. OK.

Steve, I got to tell you something. When I first got wind that they really were going forward with the accident defense, that Caylee may have drowned in the -- family swimming pool, that tot mom nutted up, did not want her mother to find out, was afraid for her to find out, and set the whole thing up to look like a murder, I thought it was outlandish.

But I thought, you know what? They might get one juror on that. A holdout that can make the rest of the jury agree to a lesser like voluntary or involuntary manslaughter. But when they went too far by claiming Lee molested her, George molested her, and George hid the body, exactly what you`re saying, Steve in Pennsylvania, that was too much.

They lost it right then and there, and that was Baez`s tactical decision to go forward with that. Unless he`s drinking the Kool-Aid and believing everything tot mom is telling him.

To Paul Penzone, former sergeant of the Phoenix PD, child advocate. What do you think, Paul, of today`s revelations?

Yury Melich asked her every which way under the sun trying to throw her a bone, trying to get the truth out of her. She would not break down and tell the truth, Paul.

Have you ever been in that spot as a cop?

PAUL PENZONE, FORMER SERGEANT, PHOENIX PD AND CHILD ADVOCATE: Absolutely. That`s the interesting thing about sociopaths, they`re career criminals. They create their own reality and stay in that just committedly. They won`t come out of it.

And what makes it difficult for investigators is every lie you want to be able to disprove to show there`s no accuracy -- weighs as well as the truth. But the heart part in this case is there`s been so few if any truths to prove some aspects of this investigation. That`s what concerns me.

Can they come up with enough facts to tie her to that murder? And I hope they will because she definitely is a sociopath.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MELICH: The guard asked her name, she gave her name. The guard told her, it doesn`t show that you work here. Asked her some questions, asked her who she worked for. She gave the name of the boss she said she worked for. The security guard didn`t have that, and said I don`t know who this guy is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She pointed to a building that I knew had nothing to do with any events department and said that we were going there.

JOSE BAEZ, CASEY ANTHONY`S ATTORNEY: You told them all of these -- all of these stories were just one great fiction.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. That`s correct.

MELICH: But that whole time she was saying, yes, I`m a Universal employee, yes, I work here. I just don`t have my I.D. and she was very convincing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At that point Miss Anthony looked at me, put her hands in her back pockets and said, I don`t work here.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are live here in Orlando bringing you the latest in the case of tot mom on trial for the alleged murder of her little girl, Caylee.

To Natisha Lance in court all day joining us from the courthouse.

I notice Jeff Hopkins` testimony really resonated with the jury. Explain to the viewers what he had to say.

NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, this is the really Jeff Hopkins who stood up today. And remember, Casey Anthony had been saying that this is a guy that she had a relationship with. He had a son named Zachary and he`s also the person who introduced her to Zenaida Gonzalez.

But today he shot down every single one of those allegations. Do you have a son named Zachary? No. Do you know Zenaida Gonzalez, was she your ex-girlfriend? No.

So every single one of Casey Anthony`s lies was brought to light today with Jeffrey Hopkins` testimony.

GRACE: What was the jury`s reaction, and how did tot mom respond to seeing him come into court?

LANCE: There was no reaction from Casey Anthony at all, Nancy. As you said before, she only reacted when she saw herself getting emotional on camera. And as far as the jury they were glued into this testimony for Jeffrey Hopkins and also glued into all the words of Casey Anthony when they heard her during those interviews and watching her on the video visitation.

GRACE: We are taking your calls. Out to Debbie in Tennessee.

Hi, Debbie.

DEBBIE, CALLER FROM TENNESSEE: Hi, Nancy. I was wondering --

GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

DEBBIE: Well, I was just wondering if they find her guilty, are they going to have to prove that she`s sane enough for the death penalty?

GRACE: You know what? That horse is out of the barn. OK? That ship has sailed.

Unleash the lawyers. Eleanor, Peter and attorney for the Anthony family, Mark Lippman.

Eleanor, at the very beginning if she had tried to claim incompetency or insanity, I mean, that happens in the initial stages. And what the defense wants to avoid is to avoid is having the state psychiatrist interview her.

Remember a couple of months ago they said they were bringing in mental health care workers, and the state said, great. Now our shrink can interview her, they went, uh-oh. Erase. Erase. Yes, we`re not going to do that.

So in order to claim incompetency --

E. ODOM: Yes. You can`t do that way, Nancy.

GRACE: -- or insanity -- explain.

E. ODOM: Well, they would have already had to do that. She would have had to have been examined by an expert witness and then the state would have an opportunity to examine her.

What will happen, though, I bet, is once she`s found guilty, and I hope she is, the defense may bring in some psychiatrist or psychologist to say she suffered from PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, of some kind because of this alleged abuse by her dad.

I bet I see that coming down the pipe.

GRACE: To Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner joining us out of Burlington County.

Dr. Manion, thanks for being with us.

DR. BILL MANION, MEDICAL EXAMINER, BURLINGTON COUNTY, NJ: My pleasure.

GRACE: We`re still getting a lot of calls and questions regarding whether you could tell from Caylee`s remains if she had drowned. Weigh in.

MANION: Absolutely. You cannot tell. The body was too decomposed. All that was left were bones, and as Dr. Spitz said in his report -- he`s the defense expert. The manner of death is undetermined. We can`t tell how this child died. They even checked the bone marrow for chemicals like chloroform and drugs and everything came back negative.

So the theory that this child died I think is still viable that she died from drowning.

GRACE: Joining us -- thank you. With us Dr. Bill Manion, medical examiner in Burlington County.

To Mark Lippman, this is the attorney for the Anthony family.

Mark, I know that the Anthonys must have had some preview of what was going to happen, what the defense was going to be. We could certainly tell from the jury selection when different proposed jurors were being asked, would you consider child molestation as part of the defense?

So you knew where that was going. But how are they feeling now that they`re seeing it unfold, and they`re seeing these tapes and they`re seeing tot mom`s lies? Maybe a lot of lies that they didn`t know about yet.

LIPPMAN: Sure. Without going into attorney/client privilege conversations with my client --

GRACE: Yes.

LIPPMAN: -- you can see by their emotions in court that they were very upset about -- certainly Cindy Anthony was very upset having to testify and listen to those 911 tapes. But yes, we knew the defense about seven weeks ago when Mr. Baez came to our office and alleged how Caylee had passed.

And then about six weeks ago we learned from the state how the defense was going to go based on her psychological evaluation in that they were going to go and allege sexual molestation by George and Lee Anthony.

And that`s about the same time I came out with the statement that George had nothing to do with the death of Casey --

GRACE: Right.

LIPPMAN: -- Caylee Anthony. And then a little bit later we came out with the statement that certainly there`s never ever been any molestation. The only reason I didn`t do it for Lee at the same time was I didn`t represent Lee until the past weekend. But everything we said about George not having to do anything also goes for Lee. He`s never had anything to do with any sort of --

GRACE: You know what, Mark?

LIPPMAN: The allegations that are there.

GRACE: This is something I don`t understand, Mark Lippman, is the venom, the anger that has been directed at George and Cindy Anthony, specifically Cindy Anthony.

Yes, she was combative in the beginning. But who wouldn`t be? When your granddaughter is missing, your daughter is under suspicion.

So when I saw her on the stand, I mean, as a mother my heart broke.

LIPPMAN: Exactly. You can see her -- and it`s interesting. The state was having to discuss -- because the defense brought it up, George Anthony`s demeanor, when the first 911 call was made and Cindy was talking to him.

That`s when we have to go back to the idea that George is a former police officer, that he went into that mode and being in that mode he was trying to take control of the situation and get the facts and find out what happened.

GRACE: Mark, a lot of people have suggested that Lee Anthony on the stand yesterday had selective memory loss. I think what a lot of people don`t understand is when you go through something extremely traumatic, a lot of times it`s like a big blur to you. The whole thing is a big blur.

LIPPMAN: Sure. He was -- it`s a traumatic experience when he lost his niece, too. He was interviewed. He was prodded. He was -- all his DNA was taken. And certainly he went through a lot of different interviews with everybody trying to get to the bottom of what was going on, and it all blends together over time.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MELICH: This story that you`re telling me, it is untrue, or is there anything that you want to change or divert from what you`ve already told me?

CASEY ANTHONY: No, sir.

L. ANTHONY: That she been kidnapped and that the nanny took her.

CASEY ANTHONY: Huge waste.

L. ANTHONY: Casey was an unfit mother for Caylee.

MELICH: Why didn`t you call prior to today?

CASEY ANTHONY: Fear of the unknown. Fear of the potential -- Caylee getting hurt. Of not seeing my daughter again.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are live outside the Orlando courthouse bringing you the latest in the trial of tot mom Casey Anthony. On trial for the alleged murder of her 2-year-old little girl.

To Natisha Lance, in court all day.

Natisha, particularly when we saw the jailhouse conversation between tot mom and her parents and they said, hey, guess what, the reward for finding Caylee is up to $225,000, did you know that?

And tot mom went -- well, she used the lord`s name in vain. She said O-M-G-J-C, and then said, hey, that could be my bail. She`s actually suggesting you use the reward money to bail her out of jail?

LANCE: She does -- that is her first reaction, Nancy. It goes straight to Casey Anthony. Nothing about Caylee. But goes to, hey, that`s half my bail amount.

And also during these conversations, Nancy, you see a lot of the conversations being steered back to Casey Anthony. Not as much on Caylee. And not as much as on, hey, let`s get out there and help find my daughter.

GRACE: Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Troy Linden, 22, Detroit Lake, Michigan, killed Iraq. Awarded Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Achievement. Loved God, time with family, guitar, off-roading in his jeep. His dog, Rusty.

Called an old soul who wore his heart on his sleeve. Leaves behind parents Keith and Mary Lee, sister, Sarah. Brother, Ryan.

Troy linden, American hero.

Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us.

And tonight, I want to congratulate New York attorney Carmen St. George on the birth of her new baby girl Isabella Maria, born yesterday, seven pounds, 15 ounces. His daddy, Judge Norman St. George, and older sister, Alexandra, are ready to welcome Baby Isabella home.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night from here, Orlando, outside the courthouse when we hope to report on justice for Caylee.

I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.

END