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Dr. Drew
Day Nine of Casey Anthony Murder Trial
Aired June 03, 2011 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST: All right. Here we go.
A jury is riveted by more jailhouse tapes of Casey Anthony, frustrated, pouty, sorry for herself, rolling her eyes at a death theory that is now her own defense strategy, fawning over the father her lawyer now says molested her.
I`m asking, what does this say about the case?
Also, cops take the stand. Evidence, center stage. I`m taking a look at the story behind the puzzle pieces.
Let`s make sense of it.
It is day nine of the Casey Anthony trial. As more and more and more of Casey`s lies come out, legal analysts are beginning to predict that Casey will have to take the stand.
Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jurors have been listening to more of those jailhouse conversations between Casey Anthony and her parents.
CASEY ANTHONY, DEFENDANT: I have no one to comfort me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, whose fault is that, Casey?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looks like Casey Anthony is on the stand without being called to the stand, testifying against herself.
ANTHONY: I`m completely upset. Let me speak for a second.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Conversations with dad, George, they seem calm and loving.
ANTHONY: I love you.
GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: I know you do. I love you, too.
SUNNY HOSTIN, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: A lot more about forensics in this case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The pictures that this jury is seeing, crucial for the prosecution`s case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The CSI detective --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- that broke the seal on the car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I immediately smelled odor of decomposition.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PINSKY: I just do not know what to make from the taped jailhouse recordings, because, look, first of all, she knows she`s being recorded there. And I want to remind everybody of something I put up here yesterday, which is just the criteria, the sort of phenomenon of sociopathy and psychopathy and what it looks like.
A sociopath is somebody who is very superficially charming, they can have controlled behavior, but have very shallow emotions and can lie unrepentantly, while a psychopath tends to be a little bit more cunning and a little more exploitative and a little more coldhearted. Sociopaths are kind of fun to be around, but they`re all manipulative, and they all lie routinely, and they do it convincingly to the point where, you`re the receiver of those kinds of lies, you start doubting yourself.
So, now, the question we`re going to be talking about tonight is whether or not abuse sets that up and whether we should be concerned about that.
Now, tonight, the jury sees more jailhouse videos of Casey behind bars. Listen here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: Right now I`m so hurt by everything. I don`t even know what to say. I`m just as much of a victim as the rest of you, and it hasn`t been portrayed that way and it probably won`t be. But I know that, and at least there are other people that know that and understand that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: And once again, she knows she`s been recorded. And with all those lies, it`s really hard to be emphatic towards her.
We`re told the 12 jurors were in fact completely transfixed, that they couldn`t take their eyes off the screen during these videos. Plus, there`s one piece of tape that might sink the entire defense. We pointed this exact video out to you yesterday.
Casey scoffs when her participants tell her there`s a rumor that Caylee drowned in the pool. Well, guess what? The jury saw it today.
Let`s take another look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: Dad`s blown up at the media.
CASEY ANTHONY: Yes, I heard.
CINDY ANTHONY: Well, someone just said that Caylee was dead this morning, that she drowned in the pool. That`s the newest story out there.
CASEY ANTHONY: Surprise, surprise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. How much will that actually hurt Casey`s defense?
I`m going straight to my guests. Criminal defense attorney Michael Cardoza is here with me in the studio. HLN law enforcement analyst Mike Brooks is with us. And also, host of "In Session" on truTV, attorney Ryan Smith, joins us from outside the courtroom.
Ryan, could that one exchange wreck the defense? Or what are people thinking?
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION," TRUTV: Oh, a lot of people are saying that very well could be the case. And it`s all because of the defense`s theory.
The defense made a big deal in their opening statements that Caylee Anthony died by drowning and that George Anthony conspired to cover it up. So if you`ve got your own defendant right there on tape kind of scoffing or laughing at that theory, what can you do to disprove that? You`re asking the jury to believe your case and there is your own defendant saying, I don`t believe the case.
So that`s why you hear a lot of people saying Casey Anthony may testify in this case. It is not a good option for the defense because she can be cross-examined. But at the same time, who is going to step up to disprove a lot of what has been said, especially in the jailhouse tapes come from Casey, herself?
PINSKY: Interesting.
The jury also heard this exchange today where Casey flips out as her mom begs her for answers about where Caylee might be.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: Can someone let me -- come on!
CINDY ANTHONY: Casey, hold on, sweetheart. Settle down.
CASEY ANTHONY: Nobody`s letting me speak. You want me to talk, then --
CINDY ANTHONY: All right. I`ll listen.
CASEY ANTHONY: -- give me three seconds to say something.
CINDY ANTHONY: Go, sweetheart.
CASEY ANTHONY: I`m not in control over any of this because I don`t know what the hell`s going on. I don`t know what`s going on.
My entire life has been taken from me. Everything has been taken from me.
You don`t understand. Everybody wants me to have answers. I don`t have any answers because I don`t know what`s going on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Yes, I don`t know what`s going on, either, Casey, because there have been so damn many lies.
Mike Brooks, it seems to me that she`s very self-preoccupied. Are these tapes going to humanize her for the jury or demonize her?
MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No, they`re going to demonize her, Dr. Drew, because that last one was on August 14th, when I think the reality started to set in. But again, it`s all I, I, I, me, me, me. It`s all Casey.
And I think the prosecution is doing a good job of setting it up. And, you know, they`ve heard from all her friends, all the lies. There`s 31 days.
And now she`s been busted. She`s in jail. And it`s, oh, wah, wah, wah, me, me, me. It`s all I, I, I. All about Casey, not about Caylee.
PINSKY: And personally, I would be a little sympathetic towards her if I hadn`t heard all the other lies leading up to this.
Michael, I saw you bristle when I asked whether or not the scoffing at the drowning theory would wreck their case.
MICHAEL CARDOZA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s going to affect their case greatly. But what I had a problem with is giving that up right at the beginning of your case. A defense attorney stepping up and saying, you know, our defense is this.
He should have waited, in my opinion, and attacked the fact that there`s no cause of death here. No cause of death at all.
Let the government prove their case. That`s what you do. You don`t give it all up in the beginning.
You scope your case towards the government`s case. And this case, to me, is what I call a shrink case.
I`ve tried an awful lot of murder trials. And you want to get psychologists, psychiatrists in. You want to do brain scans on her to see if there`s something --
PINSKY: Really wrong.
CARDOZA: -- defective. Then show it to a jury if there is.
PINSKY: I keep asking that, why aren`t they building the case of what she is?
CARDOZA: I don`t know. But one thing I do know, I`m not sure how much experience one of those lawyers has, Mr. Baez. I don`t think he`s ever tried a murder case. And I`ve got to tell you, this is not one to practice on.
PINSKY: I understand.
CARDOZA: So get your psychologists in there.
PINSKY: Ryan, do you have something to say?
SMITH: Yes. Jose Baez, actually, I spoke to him. He has tried murder cases and high-profile cases. I think what you`re talking about there is claiming mental defect or something like that. This is not an insanity case, so it`s going to be really tough --
PINSKY: No, I understand. It`s not about insanity.
CARDOZA: No.
PINSKY: It`s not about knowing right from wrong, it`s about being able to explain what this is.
CARDOZA: But take it down from a first-degree murder so they don`t get the death penalty. Explain that she`s sick. Take her lies and use them, embrace them, and say, yes, she is a liar, she`s narcissistic, she`s everything else.
Bring that to the jury and say, look at what she does, that`s her. She couldn`t commit a first-degree murder. It can`t be willful and deliberate. Bring it out of that. Take her out of the death penalty in the guilt portion of this case.
PINSKY: Interesting. Interesting strategy.
It`s hard for those of us watching, though, because we have to remember we`re all -- on our minds is this little girl that suffered here. And you see somebody that`s so duplicitous, it`s hard not to want to convict her in the court of public opinion.
So I`ve got to take to a break.
Coming up, more private jailhouse confrontations between Casey and her dad. What could they tell us about what really happened to Caylee?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: People have been lying to you guys to try to get information from you to spin it in their best interest, not for our best interest, not for our family, not for Caylee. Caylee should be everyone`s concern, and that`s no the case. And it breaks my heart.
That`s why I can`t watch any of this, that`s why I don`t want to hear about it. I want to come home and be stuck in the house so no one can try to talk to me because I don`t want to say anything to anyone.
What do I have to say? I want my daughter back. I want to be with my family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Just a quick programming note for you. Be sure to watch special live coverage of the Casey Anthony trial 9:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. Saturdays, right here on HLN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
G. ANTHONY: I`m just hoping wherever she`s at, that she`s being fed well, she`s getting some love, she`s getting a chance to watch her videos, her stuff that she likes to do. I just hope this person or persons that has her is -- I wish they would just realize, oh, my God, I`ve got to get her back to her family. I wish that could happen.
Then again, I don`t know a lot of specifics, and I`m just trying to do everything I can to find her. I`m trying.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know you are, dad.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Remember, both of them know well that they`re being taped. But does that look like a man who knows his granddaughter is dead, a man who helped cover up an accidental pool drowning?
Criminal defense attorney Michael Cardoza and law enforcement analyst Mike Brooks are back with me. We also have prosecutor Stacey Honowitz, who also joins us.
Stacey, do you think the jury seeing video of these sorts of exchanges help the prosecution?
STACEY HONOWITZ, PROSECUTOR: Oh, absolutely. I mean, listen, when Jose got up there and he threw out those defenses, like Michael said, a defense attorney getting up there, not just attacking the state case, but actually having a theory of his defense, this blows it out of the water completely.
You saw the exchange. It doesn`t matter if they knew they were being taped. The fact of the matter is they heard George on the stand, they saw his raw, true emotion. They would have to think he`s the biggest monster in the world that he conspired with his own daughter to get rid of the body of his grandchild as a police detective who didn`t try to get her 911 help or resuscitation.
I mean, really, it`s not the best defense in the world. So I think the jury will be smart enough to realize that whatever she is alleging abuse-wise, conspiracy-wise, is not the case.
PINSKY: All right. The jury also saw video of this jailhouse visit. Now, once again, Casey worrying about herself and not her missing daughter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY: This is the first time I`ve truly, truly been angry this entire time, but I`m so beyond frustrated with all of this that I can`t even swallow right now. It hurts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Mike Brooks, a grieving mother whose child is missing, does she usually act like that?
BROOKS: You know, I`ve always said, what is the real Casey Anthony? Have we seen the real Casey Anthony? Will we ever really see the real Casey Anthony?
Because the lies, she keeps crying, but we know it`s all an act, Dr. Drew. It`s just amazing to me on this August 14th tape that we see with George and Cindy here and all that anger. I think it`s -- as I said, I think it`s the reality starting to set in.
But I thought it was interesting today, too, because George, you saw George during this visit as kind of detective George Anthony, too, offering out there a guy they talked to by the name of Scott (ph) who could help her. And he said, and, you know, you could talk to him without having Jose Baez there. I thought that was very interesting.
PINSKY: The guy, Scott (ph) I think is his workers` comp attorney or something, isn`t it? It`s actually some crazy -- is that who that is?
BROOKS: Actually, it`s Scott Bolen (ph), special agent, FBI. Special Agent Scott Bolen (ph). And, you know, after this visit, it was interesting, because one of the other things George said on this August 14th visit, do they give you any pen or paper? Maybe you could write a note to the sheriff, Sheriff Berry (ph).
And apparently after they left, she got some paper and she got something to write with, and she wrote Sheriff Berry (ph) a note, Dr. Drew. And the lead detective, Yuri Melich, he got that, opened it up, and it says, "Is there any way that I can have a meeting set up with my father, George Anthony? I would in every way appreciate it. I know it`s an unusual request, but it`s important nonetheless."
So later that night, George Anthony, along with Yuri Melich, Special Agent Scott Bolen (ph), and Sergeant Allen (ph) were the other investigators. They show up at the jail for a visit with Casey.
Well, Jose Baez was out of town in New York. And the substitute attorneys had met with her just prior to this. He said, you`re not meeting with her. They wanted to wait an hour and a half. Meeting called off.
But that was interesting, because it all had to do with this visit and a little bit of detective work by George Anthony.
PINSKY: Mike, what do you make of all that?
CARDOZA: See, I disagree with Mike a little bit. When he says that it`s Casey`s act, no, it`s not an act. That`s who Casey Anthony is.
PINSKY: A lying, obfuscating, dissembling person?
CARDOZA: Absolutely. Well, she is. And that`s why you have to embrace all of that and use that as part of your defense.
Not she`s not guilty, but get that degree down, because no jury is going to walk away from these tapes. No jury is not going to believe it. There she is in her own words doing this. But the experts have to point out that`s her sickness talking.
PINSKY: Right. And again, we`re trying to save her from the death penalty.
CARDOZA: Exactly.
PINSKY: OK, Michael. Now, this is something I want you to address for my audience, is how -- for sure, you`ve dealt with criminals and lying.
CARDOZA: A lot of them.
PINSKY: Yes. How do you deal with that as a defense attorney?
CARDOZA: You know, it is really difficult, especially someone like Casey Anthony, because she is a liar, sociopathic, narcissistic.
PINSKY: OK. So can we all agree on that? Everybody?
CARDOZA: I think we all can.
PINSKY: My guests, Stacey, Mike, everybody agree with that?
BROOKS: Oh, yes. Absolutely.
PINSKY: Stacey, you agree with that?
HONOWITZ: Yes, I agree with it, but I can guarantee you that Jose got a team of doctors together. I mean, this doesn`t just come out of the blue. You just don`t get up in a high-profile murder case that the rest of the country is watching and throw these things out.
I`m certain that at some point, Jose had her evaluated for something. The bottom line is, that doesn`t take away from the fact of whether she killed this child. And that`s what the state is going to show you, that it`s cold and it`s calculating and it`s premeditated.
CARDOZA: But Stacey --
HONOWITZ: Yes?
CARDOZA: Stacey, I absolutely agree with what you`re saying. It doesn`t take away from she probably right now committed this murder.
But you want to take it out of that first degree. And that`s where the psychologists, the psychiatrists come in. That`s what you have to explore here.
And that`s why I question throwing that it`s a swimming pool accident out. Nobody watching on that jury is going to believe that defense. What Baez had to do was have tough love with her and bring her in and talk to her and cut through all the baloney.
PINSKY: All right. Mike and Stacey say no.
Right?
BROOKS: But Michael, she had every opportunity to get away from this first degree in the initial interview at Universal when one of the investigators said to her, look, I`ve talked to mothers who have rolled over on their children, whose children have drowned in swimming pools. Not one reaction.
That was her out. She could have said, well, you know what? It was an accident. And first degree would have been out the window right then, Michael.
CARDOZA: You`re right, Michael. But that is a defendant, that is her sickness talking again. She thinks she is so much of a liar and she can convince anybody. I`m so good at this, I can convince anybody.
PINSKY: She starts distorting reality.
CARDOZA: But therein is her sickness.
HONOWITZ: Do you think her parents, Michael, honestly -- I mean, listen, Dr. Drew, you`re in this business. I`m sure there`s plenty of parents that have children that say, you know what? They`re just a bad seed. And in this case, I`m sure she`s given them issues and problems all up until this point.
CARDOZA: OK.
HONOWITZ: The bottom line is, when George Anthony went to that jail and tried to talk to her, I`m sure in the back of his mind he`s thinking, I know she had something to do with this. She`s the last person to be with my granddaughter, I never knew of a nanny, I never knew of any of this stuff, and he was trying to get information from her.
I`m telling you that the bottom line is that she`s a liar. We all understand that.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: We all agree with that.
CARDOZA: I agree with you.
(CROSSTALK)
HONOWITZ: And the fact of the matter is the jury -- the state will be able to show premeditation. You`re not getting away from that Duct tape. The story about the swimming pool is bogus. And if you come out fighting and swinging, you better be able to get up in front of a jury and prove it.
PINSKY: Stacey, thank you.
Thank you, Mike.
Thank you, Michael.
I just want to recap what we`re all saying here. So there are four professionals up here. Everyone says liar, liar, liar.
CARDOZA: Absolutely.
PINSKY: Narcissistic tendencies, a core of narcissism. Sociopathy or psychopathy, one being worse than the other.
CARDOZA: Right.
PINSKY: Very sick person here. Hard to be sympathetic with her. Hard to imagine she didn`t do this.
CARDOZA: Right.
PINSKY: OK.
CARDOZA: But take it out of the first-degree range.
HONOWITZ: Right.
PINSKY: Take it out of the first-degree range. Save her life.
All right. Thank you, guests.
I`m coming up with your calls. What do you think happened to Caylee? I want to hear your theories.
Plus, the jury starts to hear the evidence. Will it prove who killed this little girl?
Take a look at her.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I can tell you for certainty that right now, looking at you, I know that everything that you`ve told me is a lie, including the fact that, you know, your child was last seen about a month ago and that you don`t know where she is. See, I`m very confident, just by having talked to you in this short period of time, that you know where she is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: This has been a captivating week watching the Casey Anthony murder trial and watching Casey`s lies upon lies get exposed. That was just one of the many moments from this week`s trial.
And we have been flooded with your comments and theories about the trial, so let`s go to the phones.
Up first, I`ve got Susan from Tacoma -- Susan.
SUSAN, TACOMA: Dr. Drew, let me tell you this --
PINSKY: Tell me.
SUSAN: -- I feel like she`s been chloroforming Caylee for a long time, and it just got out of hand, and now she needs to rot in hell.
PINSKY: Well, I`m not sure I`m ready to convict her yet, but my own little theory is the same as yours. I`m beginning to think that she may have been giving -- Zanny the nanny -- it may have been Xanax that she was giving her. It was kind of an expensive pill, ran out of that, and then perhaps started experimenting with chloroform as a way of putting the troublesome child to bed. Awful stuff.
Kimberly in Alabama?
KIMBERLY, ALABAMA: Dr. Drew, I`m going to tell you what I think. Are you ready?
PINSKY: I am still sick about the last call.
KIMBERLY: I think Casey had someone assist her with the dumping of poor little Caylee`s body, and I think she has a mental problem. I do not think Caylee drowned. And being the mother of a daughter who`s very strong-willed and emotional, I see how they walk on eggshells around Casey.
PINSKY: No, you`re right, there`s no doubt that everybody walks on eggshells around Casey. And I wish we`d see more evidence about what her pattern has been for years and years.
I`ve not seen that evidence yet. And that would tell us much more about her pathology now. You know, why she does the things she does, or how long she`s done them. We could speculate more about that if we knew more about the pattern throughout her life.
Leslie in Michigan, go ahead.
LESLIE, MICHIGAN: Hello there, Dr. Drew.
PINSKY: Leslie.
LESLIE: I know you`re looking for theories. I just have something that I feel the need to ask. And that is, what comes first, the chicken or the egg?
And does Casey live a life of lies due to the abuse, or is the abuse yet another lie? I`ll tell you, she`s lucky I`m not on the jury. That ice in her veins could get her a conviction.
OK, Dr. Drew. I feel better now. Thank you.
PINSKY: I`m glad you feel better, but I kind of agree with you. And this is what we`re all sitting here talking about.
When I first started looking at this case, I started wondering, well, you know, somebody who`s been abused, these kinds of behaviors certainly are not unusual. But believe me, there is such a thing as sociopathic or psychopathic people that are just lying, cold, calculating people. And she`s certainly at this point shaping up to be that.
Got a Facebook question. Jackie asks, "Does a narcissistic personality and insanity sometimes go hand in hand?"
Those are really separate issues. And the term "insanity" does not have a lot of meaning.
Usually what you mean is psychotic or disconnected from reality. Narcissists are often very connected to reality, but disconnected from their feelings or any appreciation that other people have feelings.
Elizabeth asked, "Why do you think some people are ignorant of their dysfunctional behavior?"
Well, that goes at the very core of mental illness, my dear. The fact is that denial and the inability to be insightful of your issues are the things that people in mental health fight against all the time. People would rather -- it`s less painful to think about the world as the problem rather than have to look at your own stuff.
All right. Up next, a defense attorney covering this case has a dark secret of her own. So I want to know how she can relate to the accused murderer, Casey Anthony. She will tell us next.
Plus, coming up, crime scene investigators take the stand. Is there anything that connects Casey to her daughter`s murder?
We`re going to talk about that. You need to stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) * PINSKY: More riveting Casey Anthony jailhouse, more lies, more drama, and a strange twist, the eerily sweet dynamic between father and daughter. If George Anthony really molested Casey, why is she such a daddy`s girl? I`m asking an attorney who has a very personal reason for believing he did it. A deep, dark secret she has never revealed until now.
Also, the evidence taken from Casey`s house, her vehicle, even her body, the expert who broke the seal and smelled that infamous stench in Casey`s car.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Get out of the way, camera man! Yes!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Is that Florida or Pamplona? I just have to shake my head every time I see that video of the mob rushing the Casey courtroom. Really, it shows us just how fascinated and riveted we`ve become with this trial.
All right. I`m back with law enforcement analyst Mike Brooks, who`s going to stay with us this and the next segment. Also joining us are Janine Driver, an authority on body language; and Meg Strickler, she`s a defense attorney.
Now typically when I talk to attorneys, it`s about legal issues, right now, thought, we`re going to get to some more personal issues for just a moment.
Meg, there was something you wanted to share about your history and the job you do.
MEG STRICKLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. I`m a criminal defense lawyer and represent clients just like Casey Anthony every day. And this case is really hitting a soft spot for me. And I wanted to say something about it because I feel like sexual abuse is not talked about enough. And what I`m going to say is very hard for me to say, but...
PINSKY: Do you want to hold my hand? This is intense. People don`t appreciate how intense this is.
STRICKLER: I`ve never done this before either. And it`s very hard and few people know it in my world out there. But I was a victim of child sexual abuse. My father molested me from age 3 all the way to my wedding 10 years ago. So I have got a lot of history. I recognize it. I`ve got a lot of mental health issues as a result also. I`m highly functioning obviously, but...
PINSKY: And you were telling me just briefly that you actually have to defend victimizers, perpetrators?
STRICKLER: I do, I do, I do.
PINSKY: And like a good victim, or -- I don`t call you victim. That`s not a good word. But as a survivor of this, you compartmentalized and disconnected from your feelings and just went on about your business.
STRICKLER: Yes. And I can easily do it. The problem is, I`ve been going through a lot of therapy and can`t do it nearly as well. And so.
PINSKY: Because you`re back connected to your feelings again.
STRICKLER: I have to find a little bit more, as days go on and weeks go on, slightly different angle to what I do. But on the other hand, it actually helps me represent these clients even better because I understand it from all sides.
PINSKY: And the victimizers were often victims themselves.
STRICKLER: Yes, they were. And I can totally empathize immediately when they start talking about that. I`m with them, I get it. And now they`ll know what my history is now, too.
PINSKY: All right. Well, talk to me about Casey Anthony, because she`s a hard one to feel emphatic towards because of all the lying. So what is your take on her?
STRICKLER: But you know what, I`ll tell you something, she definitely, definitely is a victim. I mean, how is a 23-year-old look like that without some sort of history? It`s driving me nuts that no one wants to believe that. Sexual abuse victims are all over the place. One out of four women are victims. I mean, it`s everywhere.
She has got that stone-cold face for two reasons. My lawyer hat will tell you that she`s doing that because her defense attorneys told her to be that way. But my other side, the victim side says, I`m doing that because I am freaked completely out at everything that`s transpiring here, I am gone. I have left the stadium.
PINSKY: Disassociated.
STRICKLER: And I recognize that. You look at her eyes, you can actually be in the courtroom and look at her eyes, she`s not present.
PINSKY: Well, I will tell you that, she, herself, generates a lot of intense feelings in the people that are watching this trial. I mean, I will get attacked for just having this -- floating this theory. And people don`t want to let her off the hook, even though that might have been the case.
STRICKLER: Yes. This doesn`t exonerate her. I`m not saying she wasn`t involved in what happened here, but I so do not think that she premeditatedly killed Caylee. No way.
PINSKY: So you think it was an accident.
STRICKLER: I think it was an accident. She didn`t know what to do. I recognize it. I have a 2-year-old and a 4-year-old. I have the same aged children. When you go off and disassociate, things can happen. I can just see George running in there and being like, Caylee, what -- excuse me, Casey, what did you do?
And my personal theory is George helped cover it up because he`s the patriarch.
PINSKY: And remind people, you`re a defense attorney. OK. And that is your take. Your theory.
STRICKLER: My take. My take.
PINSKY: Again, people at home, we`re just trying to look at this thing from all angles, please don`t express your fury. Just take it in. Let`s all try to make sense of this.
OK. There were bombshell allegations of sexual abuse, and they were heard at the courtroom for the first time when Casey`s attorney dropped these jarring statements right in front of the jury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSE BAEZ, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: This child, at 8 years old, learned to lie immediately. She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (redacted) in her mouth and then go to school and play with other kids as if nothing ever happened. Nothing`s wrong. That will help you understand why no one knew that her child was dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Meg, your reaction.
STRICKLER: You know what, I watched it when it first happened and you notice Casey couldn`t keep it together then. And I get that, too. Because I`m all like la, la, la, la, nothing`s wrong, nothing`s wrong, nothing`s wrong. Bam.
PINSKY: You lose it.
STRICKLER: You lose it. And she did there. And that was heartfelt in my opinion. You know, the whole family is the definition of dysfunction.
PINSKY: Well, yes. No one`s doubting that. Again, there`s so much about this that is not healthy. All right. We have Casey accusing her dad of molesting her, but in Casey fashion, she throws us all a curve ball when she throws her dad and these compliments.
Now, Janine, I want to ask you, what do you pick up from Casey`s body language in this clip?
JANINE DRIVER, AUTHOR, "YOU SAY MORE THAN YOU THINK": Well, Dr. Drew, it`s very funny because my B.S. barometer is like off the charts here. She`s inauthentic. First of all, when she`s crying, you don`t know, she could be crying because she`s throwing her father under the bus, making up a story. That`s the thing about body language, is be careful about being a mind-reader.
If I ask you if you`re cheating on your significant other and you do a shoulder shrug, which is uncertainty, does that mean you`re cheating? No, maybe your father has been cheating on your mother for years. You can`t pick up on the emotion and then all of a sudden say, oh, it`s because she was molested, it`s because the father did it.
That`s not the case. I`ll tell you right now. It`s genuine sadness. We don`t know what`s causing the sadness in this clip. But when she`s in the jail and she`s talking to her parents and she`s getting mad and angry, it is not believable in my eyes.
Sixteen years working for the Justice Department, with ATF as an investigator, doing firearms trafficking, I`ve worked with a lot of bad guys. And her body language, Dr. Drew, is not consistent with the emotions.
See, oftentimes when people get angry, we are pushing people away because more often than not, at least 50 percent of the time, it is fear. And as you get closer and closer to the truth, we raise our tone of voice. We take up space. Because we want to push you away.
Bottom line here is Casey Anthony, we`re not buying it. We`re not buying it. It`s -- my B.S. detector is going through the roof. Her body language is not consistent. When she`s sad in jail and she`s crying, her inner eyebrows aren`t coming up and together. It`s one of the seven universal emotions. We all have them. Proven by Dr. Paul Ekman, one of the top psychologists to ever influence the world, on the same list as Freud.
You don`t see the eyebrows. You want to see where you see them? Paris Hilton, when she was thrown in jail. They wouldn`t let her do a house arrest. Google Paris Hilton. You see her eyebrows together and up in massive grief. Here we have Casey Anthony fake crying. I don`t buy it in jail. I buy it in the courtroom. But I don`t know what`s causing it.
PINSKY: OK. Appreciate that. OK. We`re going to keep going. Thank you to my guests.
Up next, crime scene investigators will take the stand. And they`re talking about Casey`s car, DNA on hair, toothbrushes, and, of course, Caylee`s doll. The evidence does not lie. We`ll look at what that tells us. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My observations when I opened the driver`s side, i immediately smelled the odor of decomposition coming from inside the car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
PINSKY: Do not forget, HLN will be covering the Casey Anthony trial every day and taking you live to the courtroom on Saturdays.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what happened to Caylee?
CASEY ANTHONY: I don`t know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sure you do. You need to listen. Something happened to Caylee. We`re not going to discuss the last time you saw her. I`m guessing something bad happened to her some time ago and you haven`t seen her. So that part is true if you say you haven`t seen her because she`s somewhere else right now. She`s either in a dumpster right now, she`s buried somewhere. She`s out there somewhere and her rotting body is starting to decompose because of what you`re telling us.
And here`s the problem. The longer this goes, the worse it`s going to be for everyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: All right. Everybody, here is the challenge for you all and for me today. Looking at that tape, you see that stone cold quality. And we all have to sit here and think, is that because she has been coached to be that way, which I doubt she has, because she`s a cold-blooded calculating, lying whatever, or because she is disassociated and an abuse survivor, as Meg theorized a few minutes ago?
We`ve got to sit here and just think about those things. Don`t react to them. Just think about them.
All right. We`re seeing detectives interrogate Casey Anthony, begging for the truth. They told her they knew the daughter was, now listen to this quote, "in a dumpster somewhere rotting," unquote. They`re beating her up. But does the evidence back this up?
Was Caylee`s body stashed in the trunk of Casey`s car? For the first time today we`re seeing physical evidence in the trial. Now the jury saw photos of Caylee`s car seat and photos of dryer sheets in the back seat and in the trunk. Did Casey put the dryer sheets in the trunk to mask the smell everyone is talking about? The crime scene investigator testified he found hair in the trunk of the car and dirt. Just listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The marker A that is seen inside the trunk, what is it that you are demonstrating through use of this marker?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was the description of the dryer sheet or air freshener sheet, letter A. And the second one will be letter B, which is residue of dirt that I found inside the trunk.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Joining me, again, criminal defense attorney Michael Cardoza; also host of "In Session" on TruTV, Ryan Smith; and Mike Brooks, HLN law enforcement analyst.
Now, Mike, if there`s evidence of a body being in that trunk, is that it for Casey?
MIKE BROOKS, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I would say so. Well, but again, we don`t know even the cause of death, Dr. Drew. But we saw the investigator today who processed that car from the time it came into the garage there, the forensic garage at Orange County.
He started taking pictures, documenting everything, started collecting evidence out of that vehicle. In fact, he was the first one to open the door that had been sealed by another deputy. He opened that door and he smelled something.
PINSKY: Do you conclude anything from what was presented in evidence today, Mike?
BROOKS: I`ll tell you, it sets the stage for all of the experts to start talking about what the technician, what this investigator collected from inside that car. Because, Dr. Drew, what his job is, he`s collecting everything, putting it all together, packaging it up and sending it to the lab.
In fact, tomorrow, first witness up on the stand is going to be FBI forensics examiner Karen Lowe from the FBI lab in Quantico. Now she`s going to talk about a hair that was found inside that car that experts say shows it came from a body that was decomposing.
Now we heard from her back in March during one of the Frye hearings, but she`s going to be one of the persons on the stand when we carry it live here on HLN tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. Eastern tomorrow. It`s going to be interesting to hear what she says.
PINSKY: All right. All right. The prosecution -- indeed, it will be. The prosecution was also shown images of Caylee`s belongings that were found in Casey`s car. Take a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Were these evidence items that were given to you by Detective Beasley (ph)?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is this an item that you collected from Detective Beasley as well and then photographed?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what did you do with it after you received it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I made a picture of the backpack, the material of the backpack, and then proceed to preserve it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Cindy testified that the doll, quote, "smelled like death." Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY, GRANDMOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Caylee`s doll smelled like the car, so I took it out and in our garage we have an ice chest, and I set the doll down and I went and got a Clorox wipe and wiped the face and the hands and the body is soft, so it smelled pretty bad, so I went and got some Febreze and I sprayed the doll.
And I sprayed Febreze all through the car thinking that that might help the odor. I sprayed the front and the back. I used pretty much a whole can of Febreze.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Ryan, some people are saying that doll is proof that the last time Caylee was alive, she was in that car because apparently this was her favorite doll and for her to have taken it along with her, she probably would have been alive. I also wonder whether Cindy had inadvertently sort of tampered with the evidence here.
RYAN SMITH, HOST, "IN SESSION": You know, it`s really interesting, Dr. Drew. You mention the words probably and could. This is the toughest part of the case for the prosecution. And that`s because it`s largely a circumstantial case.
There is nothing connecting -- necessarily connecting Casey to Caylee`s death. So when you talk about the doll in the trunk, oh, well, that doll smells like decomposition. Even Cindy said on the stand that that was more of a figure of speech. Dr. Drew, I think the real focus is going to be on the trunk and what`s in that trunk.
People have said they smelled death or it smelled really bad or might have smelled like d decomposition. But the problem for the prosecution will be saying that Casey somehow put Caylee in that trunk. They`re asking the jury to make a leap and make that analysis. And that`s a very tough place for the prosecution to live in. The defense is going to try to poke holes in that theory.
PINSKY: Michael, is that a tough place for them to go? Number one. And is it tougher, or any tougher, than just getting the jury to like Casey Anthony?
MICHAEL CARDOZA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, certainly, Dr. Drew, they don`t like Casey.
PINSKY: And that`s a big deal, right?
CARDOZA: Oh, it`s a huge deal. In every case I have tried, and I`ve tried well over 200 jury trials, if a jury doesn`t like your client, you are not going to win. And clearly.
PINSKY: Listen, now I`m going to stop you there, because...
CARDOZA: All right.
PINSKY: There`s -- audience, there are millions of people watching this trial, nobody likes Casey Anthony. How are you going to get somebody to like this woman that lies and obfuscates and seems so duplicitous?
CARDOZA: You`re never going to get them to like her. You`re going to try to get them to be empathetic to her. Because.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Not to want to subject her to the death penalty.
CARDOZA: Exactly. So that`s what you want to do because what the prosecution is doing is building a mosaic of guilt, piece by piece they`re putting up circumstantial evidence. Now, one of those doesn`t point to her guilt. You could never find her guilty on that. But by the time they`re through, that mosaic will read guilty to that jury.
What the defense has to do is attack that as best they can, but in my opinion, they`re going to be better off with taking psychological approach to this, embracing all the bad stuff about her, not fighting that, because you`re not going to win in that fight. Saying, that`s who she is, she couldn`t commit a first degree, she is a very, very sick woman.
PINSKY: So let me refine that. So she`s a lying whatever.
CARDOZA: Yes.
PINSKY: We`ve all agreed she`s severely narcissistic. Mike out there, Ryan, you -- Ryan, this is your chance to ring in on this too. Do you agree, narcissist, sociopath? I haven`t taken your pulse on this yet, agree?
SMITH: All of the above. I see the narcissistic, I see all those elements. But here`s the thing, this is a murder trial. So you could say she`s the most narcissistic person in the world, but did she kill her daughter? There`s no witness here. There`s no strong evidence that puts a murder weapon in her hand. And that`s where the defense is going to live in this case. They`re going to say, wait, you don`t have that, how do you know?
PINSKY: I think that`s what Michael is saying. But because she`s so unlikable.
CARDOZA: Unlikable.
PINSKY: Yes, it makes it.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDOZA: And there`s so much circumstantial evidence. You`re taking such a big chance. It`s an all-or-nothing with that defense. And I think he would better serve Casey by having a real talk with her, cutting through her baloney and saying, no, this is how I`m going to defend you, it takes a strong defense attorney to do that and an experienced one.
PINSKY: One quick question, though, what if they can prove that she was severely sexually abused? Would that open the case up for her?
CARDOZA: That would be one step toward that certainly. That would give her some sympathy.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDOZA: But they have to build the mosaic of that.
PINSKY: Yes, Ryan, I agree with you. And by the way, they`ve not shown the magnitude of abuse that would be necessary to show the kind of psychological problems...
CARDOZA: But that alone wouldn`t do it. You`ve got to.
(CROSSTALK)
BROOKS: But, Michael, they`re going to have to put her on the stand to hear it from her own mouth.
(CROSSTALK)
PINSKY: Mike, Michael, Ryan, thank you all. We`re going to keep this going.
Up next, Casey has been spinning a web of lies, including intricate details about "Zanny the Nanny" who does not exist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: One of the times I walked in my room, Casey was sitting on the floor crying, and I overheard her tell me that Caylee had been gone for 31 days and that Zanny had taken her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything you told us is a lie. Every single thing. And you can`t.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And you can`t keep sitting here and telling us the same thing and getting constantly over and over and over again we`re disproving everything that you`re telling us. You`re telling us you`ve lied to us. You`re telling us you`ve given us misinformation. Everything you`re telling us, OK? It needs to end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: Webs of lies upon lies. The one thing we know about Casey Anthony, is she is a great liar. And I don`t mean great in the sense that she does a good job at it. As this week comes to an end, let`s look at some of Casey Anthony`s extraordinary lies. Of course, I`m back with criminal defense attorney Michael Cardoza.
Michael, you say the defense should just embrace these lies.
CARDOZA: I really think they should. Her best lie really, and the one they really should embrace is, she goes out to Universal, she says, I work here. Now any rational human being would know I`m going to get caught at this. But her sickness allows her to believe this so much and she tells it with such conviction.
PINSKY: Well, here`s the testimony of her pretending that she has the job at Universal. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Say, we`re looking for a missing 2 1/2-year-old. I can`t understand why if she`s coming up to this security gate with two officers in tow, another detective standing there with security manager in front of all these people, I can`t imagine what would inspire her to lie at this point.
If she`s at the gate, there has got to be a reason for it. There has to be an explanation for it. I can`t figure it out. But she led us there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PINSKY: I love the incredulity in the investigator`s -- he`s like, how is this possible?
CARDOZA: She`s sick.
PINSKY: Well, here`s a -- let`s look at a list of her imaginary friends. Here they are. Of course, we have "Zanny the Nanny," which, again, for me and my money was a euphemism for Xanax. We have Samantha, Zanny`s fake sister. We have Gloria. The list just keeps going on. Jeffrey Hopkins. And she was able to -- I saw some footage of her discussing in great detail what these people looked like, the kind of clothing they wore. Wow.
And you`ve also mentioned as -- I want to look at this before we talk about it. She claimed she worked at Universal for two years. Boy, I mean, incredible.
CARDOZA: Incredible.
PINSKY: Incredible, truly. But you think that still embracing that allows them then to say, put that aside, now we have to make the connection between what a lying person she is and a murderer?
CARDOZA: Exactly. But what degree of murder does she fall within? And that`s what the defense has to fight to. And it takes courage to do that because you have to have a real tough talk with your client and tell them, you`re not walking out of this one, they`re going to find you guilty of something, what I have to do in defending you is to lessen the hurt here, lessen the degree, because you`re not a well person.
And then you put in all the evidence that shows that, and all the doctors, don`t fight this evidence.
PINSKY: And let me just -- we`ve been tossing around terms today. I just want to again review with people. We`ve been talking about psychopathy and sociopathy, these are people that really don`t have empathy for other people. They see people as objects for their manipulation. They routinely lie.
We all know people like this out there. And Michael and i during the break were talking about how I don`t want people to feel threatened by this. They shouldn`t be fearful or feel helpless. But, you know.
CARDOZA: There are people out there like that.
PINSKY: They are people.
(CROSSTALK)
CARDOZA: It`s frightening at times.
PINSKY: They`re not murderers, a lot of them, and you have just got to learn to not be so incredulous when people lie. And those of you that do lie, listen, when we`re treating you, it`s all about rigorous honesty and reestablishing that. You can`t go anywhere in life without that.
And I want everyone to remember that this entire -- everything we`re talking about here is about one little girl and the justice that needs to be served for her. That`s really what`s behind all this. And nobody should forget it.
Thank you, Michael.
CARDOZA: You`re welcome.
PINSKY: Thank you for watching. We`ll see you next time.
END
